Making Commoner RP

[Rindan]

An idea I have been kicking around for a while is some way to 'solve' the problem of Armageddon's lack of commoners.  Taking Allanak as an example, you can basically split the population between people working for a house (noble or merchant), 'rinthers, Byners, and the odd lone wanders / hunters.  What is missing in there are normal old Joe commoners.

The problem with playing a commoner is two fold.  

First, you can't be apart of an organization.  If you join a House, you have just set yourself above the average commoner.  If you nix joining a House, you have absolutely no in game organizations left to join.  This is a problem because there is little point in playing a commoner if you never get the chance to role play with other commoners.  The fun of being a commoner would be the relationships and struggles of commoner life.  Those don't exist if you are the only Joe commoner around.

Second, even if there were other Joe and Jane commoners, there is a lack of activities and goals for commoners.

Solution

The solution is to build an in game commoner organization.  It needs to offer some level of livelihood, but you defeat your purpose if it ends up making people rich.  It needs activities, struggles, and all the things that exist in any other clan.  It needs to be fluid and open to recruiting ICly.  If the organization is going to be stable, it can't infringe on the authority of noble houses and the templerate, and it can't infringe too much on the monopolies of the merchant houses.  It also would be nice if it takes little to no staff support.  If a core of commoners started playing, it might very well spawn other commoner roles.  Playing a loan shark in a world of noble houses and 1 day old 'rinthers doesn't make sense who vanish over night, but it does make sense if you have struggling commoners to pray on.

I have some thoughts on what might work, but I am curious to hear what others think.  What type of organization fits the bill?  How do you keep people entertained?  Where do you start?  Anyone have any thoughts?

[Salt Merchant]

Commoners tend to do common tasks, I suppose. What if various objects (statues, the outside of the temple, and so forth) became dusty over time in the manner that clothing does? A templar could employ one or a few commoners to clean continuously. The same with the city streets if they could have multiple descriptions, one for being dusty or sand-clogged (especially after a big sandstorm), one for being clean, and the characters can push the status from the former to the latter using brooms.

Similarly, there could be water hauling tasks available from the templarate. Field work in the farms outside the city. Hauling rubbish and refuse. Slaves would do a lot of this, but maybe commoners are hired to supplement them when the backlog gets too high.

[rishenko]

Commoners could also band together in loosely formed groups to go out and get salt/mine, watching each others backs.  This is not to say that somebody may not get screwed over, but you could end up with non-affiliated groups of people holding together like miners do on the east coast of the US.

It would also be nice to see some loan sharks and bookies in the game.  Granted, being a newbie, these people might already be here and I just not see them.  If they are not there, I think that would be yet another interesting flair, having the occasional high stakes Kruth game with people from the Houses or independent traders who participate.  People who gamble their lives away, borrowing money to cover the debt, hiding from the loan shark as he/she sends out their muscle to take you down.

[ale six]

So I'm not really sure I see the "problem" here...

First of all, I kinda think your definition of 'commoner' is a little too narrow. Everybody who isn't a noble or a templar is a commoner. There are probably a dozen of those characters between both cities, versus lots lots more of everyone else. That's plenty of commoners.

Your post seems to be asking where the "poor" commoners are, so we can go ahead and shave the richer people off as well. Let's set the twink hunters who pull in 1500 sids a week aside for now and only talk about the people who are supposed to be rich:
- Merchant family members
- Prominent and well-respected bards (mainly in Tuluk)
- Senior/trusted advisors to nobles
- House guard officers and sergeants

That's a wider group of people, but it's still not everybody. I think that if your character isn't in one of the above categories, you really aren't that far above the average commoner, and shouldn't act like you are.

If I'm reading Rindan right he's saying that that you're somehow not a commoner if you work for noble House X. The thing is, just because your House gives you a nifty cloak and some food and water doesn't mean you're anything special. You have a job, sure. That means you're better than people who don't. But you aren't good enough to strut around on a high horse because you made Private in Borsail or Tor. Think of it this way: the House values you about as much as they pay you per month. If you're only getting paid 400 sids a month (which isn't even enough for a cheap apartment usually), they don't value you all that much. You're not that far above the average Joe. Maybe too many people act like they are.

Working for the merchant Houses is even a step below working for the nobles. Kuraci mercenaries or Salarr/Kadius hunters are really only a step above Bynners. They get paid, and they're cleaner (usually), but they're still very very common.

But, for the sake of argument, let's even toss away everybody who works for any organization. There still seems to be plenty of independents around in both cities, whether they're hunters, merchants, or pickpockets. If these people aren't the Joe Commoners of Zalanthas... then exactly who is? I'm just not sure how there is some lack of commoners in the game, because I can list examples of them up and down the entire social and poverty spectrum.

I also don't understand how if you join an existing organization in the game, you are no longer a commoner by Rindan's definition, but the proposed solution is to make more organizations for people to join? What would be the difference? Less pay? Recruits in most houses are paid practically nothing, so I don't see how you could make a group that pays even less. So would a new group have different (more 'common') goals? Still not sure that's possible - the Byn is about as common as you can get, whereas Salarr or Kadius pay people to go kill critters for a living, which ain't exactly a glamour job.

With all that said, I guess that if somebody thinks they see a niche for a new organization that nothing else fills right now, there's nothing wrong with going in game and working towards forming it. I just don't know if it's absolutely necessary, seeing as how the range of clans we have already covers a very broad spectrum.

[Larrath]

Real Zalanthan commoners can barely afford food and water, let another luxuries like a new sandcloth greatcloak every month.

I think that farm work will be best for this - allow PCs to go to the villages around Allanak and do labor there.  Its advantages over salt and obsidian mining being in the security of the walls, and the present Militia.

This is an excellent idea, really.  We need something between the 'rinthi scum and the peasants who are merely worthless.  If the commoners go to the farm and, after spamming their movement points completely away and doing dehydrating labor (and only being able to buy overpriced water inside the village), their 'sids can be shaved away to let them bring in a profit of 50 'sids at most per haul, which is a perfect amount; enough for a bit of spice or ale or a prostitute, or for an apartment if someone works constantly or in a group.

Allanak can have farming villages while Tuluk can have logging villages, the work in Allanak being sowing, grinding or planting and in Tuluk hauling, sorting, tying logs together and removing large branches.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Allanak can have farming villages while Tuluk can have logging villages, the work in Allanak being sowing, grinding or planting and in Tuluk hauling, sorting, tying logs together and removing large branches.

I'm not really going to address the issue of whether or not there's enough "commoner" RP out there. I think that the majority of what people think of as commoner work - the underlying backbreaking labor of society like farming, construction, quarrying - would be done by SLAVES not commoners. Instead, I'll assume for the moment that roles like farming were available.

1. You'd still be working for either the templarate or a noble House. They own all the farmland.

2. You can already go logging, mining, gathering, and in short, choose to live a subsistence existence.

3. Most people don't choose to do this, not because it isn't possible to do so in the game, but because it's dull, dull, dreadfully dull. If you want to play a logger who barely makes enough sid to stay in food and water, feel free but just be aware that most people don't find that terribly entertaining.

[LoD]

This is one of the issues that I wanted to help solve when I proposed this idea earlier in the year:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14382&highlight=automated

Some people thought that such a thing would further dillute the already small playerbase into "clans" - but my belief was that these small atmosphere generating clans would simply allow players to better play out life as a commoner by providing them a "work" environment for different professions as well as a place to sleep that isn't a bar or a rented apartment.

Zalanthan civilization would probably have a lot of co-op style arrangements simply because of crowded living arrangements and a setup that allowed someone to join one of these union style groups would provide minimal benefits: place to sleep, place to sit and talk, some goals toward working, added source to sell natural resources, profession specific equipment, etc...

The reason I suggested they be automated (and not run by a PC) is to encourage people to participate in them loosely and as a means for them to play out a common role without having to wait for a recruiter.  PC's could get a "job" right away mining obsidian, lumberjacking, foraging for stones, gathering salts or clay, etc...  There would be a consistent presence leading these people and Imms could use these vehicles as a potential staging ground for RP and/or quests.

This would also create a nice middle man IC supply chain for these goods that players could actually participate in and perhaps work on contracts for Merchant Houses to procure certain levels of these goods.  Lots of possibilities here for someone to play a simple commoner role and actually have the basic necessities.

-LoD

[Armaddict]

I'd prefer it not be a 'spammed' event but rather a 'clocked in' event or some such.

Check in, work is closed at night...you're paid for how long you were there in the day.

Spamming leads to priority on getting that command in as many times as possible, rather than interacting with any others that happen to be there.

I'd rather see people check in and idle and become like an npc than a room full of people spamming farming commands.

[Dalmeth]

Hey, if anyone wants to start a logging crew in Tuluk, they should, you know, do it.

[Cuusardo]

I always figured that NPCs and vNPCs accounted for the poorest part of the population.  That isn't to say that no PC should ever be poor and live in squalor.  There are ways to do it, and you can have fun while doing it.

[Vanth]

One of the things I've always thought there should be more of is 'odd jobs'.

As it stands, you either work for someone, or you don't.  But it seems like there's a lot of opportunity for nobles and other 'boss' characters to not hire someone, and just give them an odd job.

The corpulent, pasty-faced noble says, in sirihish, beckoning to the pimple-faced lad, "You, spotty.  Want to make a handful of coin?  Fetch me some incense from the shop around the corner.  The purple kind."

[EvilRoeSlade]

If I'm reading Rindan right he's saying that that you're somehow not a commoner if you work for noble House X. The thing is, just because your House gives you a nifty cloak and some food and water doesn't mean you're anything special. You have a job, sure. That means you're better than people who don't. But you aren't good enough to strut around on a high horse because you made Private in Borsail or Tor. Think of it this way: the House values you about as much as they pay you per month. If you're only getting paid 400 sids a month (which isn't even enough for a cheap apartment usually), they don't value you all that much. You're not that far above the average Joe. Maybe too many people act like they are.

Just about everyone does, it seems.  You can't so much as scowl at a clanned character without their superior threatening you and calling for the militia.  Because of this, it's nearly impossible for an unclanned character to engage in any meaningful conflict with the rest of the playerbase.  I think that the problem stems from people placing too much value on their employees for OOC reasons.  For example, if you're a noble, you know that if something happens to your aide, it might be months before you find someone else to replace him, so it's understandable if you get overly protective in regards to things that you really shouldn't give a shit about.

I don't know if a commoner clan is the solution though.  I was in such an immortal-sponsored clan once, and it was probably harder to survive than it would be as an independant in a similar role, since I had restrictions on my actions but no increased survivability to compensate.  Furthermore, templars and nobles were wantonly slaughtering our NPC leaders for no reason other than they could get away with it.  In the end, we were still more or less marginalized and ignored by the rest of the playerbase, just as we would have been had we chosen to play independants.

[amoeba]

3. Most people don't choose to do this, not because it isn't possible to do so in the game, but because it's dull, dull, dreadfully dull.

My thoughts exactlly when I first read this thread.  This is not a direct accusation to anybody specific, but it seems others want to see this IG, as long as it's someone else.   Me, I want to see plots, plots, and more plots. The world is awash with commoners and slaves.

[Dakurus]

This really does emphasize the issue that currently PC's cover such a wide spectrum of social classes, positions, ranks, races, tribes, houses, clans and what not that it's difficult to have enough with our current playerbase to create a consistent, deep, detailed level of interaction among these organizations or even in them that some people might like to see.

Just my opinion

[Xygax]

There aren't plots in farming?  Wasn't Tevia from Fiddler on the Roof a farmer (well, some sort of menial laborer)?  And yet that story is one of the most successful and acclaimed plays/musicals that I can think of off the top of my head.

If you don't think there is a plot to be found in the an "ordinary" life, you may be missing out one of Armageddon's strongest points.  The actual coded activity (be it farming, mining, training as a mercenary) matters far less than the character you choose to portray in it.  Additionally, some of the greatest events in history have been related to resources like grain, salt, etc.  Building the infrastructure to codedly emphasize resources like this is, in my opinion, a very good thing.  It just takes a while.

-- X

[Medena]

One of the things I've always thought there should be more of is 'odd jobs'.

How about a couple of locations where people could go line up at dawn in the hopes of getting dispatched on a one-day job?  It wouldn't be a sure thing of getting one because there might not be any jobs on a particular day or perhaps you weren't far enough up in the queue.


Examples of jobs:

House Rennik hires a crew to go unload kank shit at its greenhouses.

House Jal hires a crew for road repairs.

The slaughterhouse hires a few to clean up and haul away an unusual surplus of guts.

House Salarr hires a few people to clean the garbage out of a new work area it has acquired.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Examples of jobs:

House Rennik hires a crew to go unload kank shit at its greenhouses.

House Jal hires a crew for road repairs.

The slaughterhouse hires a few to clean up and haul away an unusual surplus of guts.

House Salarr hires a few people to clean the garbage out of a new work area it has acquired.

There are a lot more interesting things to do than clean up shit.

The game would definitely benefit from more odd jobs, and there doesn't need to be any additional coding to do them.  This really lies upon the responsibility of nobles, templars, merchants, and even military officers.  Hire an assassin to kill somebody.  Hire a thief to steal something.  Hire a ranger to scout out a new encampment for you to raid.  It's really only limited to your imagination.

[Armaddict]

The corpulent, pasty-faced noble says, in sirihish, beckoning to the pimple-faced lad, "You, spotty. Want to make a handful of coin? Fetch me some incense from the shop around the corner. The purple kind."

A noble can just -make- them go do that, if they're so inclined.

But assuming they don't...what sort of tip should be given?  15 coins?  It -should- be reasonable, but yet everyone thinks of that noble as a cheapskate afterwards.

Me, I think a 100-150 'sid bounty would be good.  That's half a year's pay for the 'average' commoner, I believe.  But yet, that's so insignificant to the average PC.  You can't really do much with 150 coins, except for buy cheap flour to make travel cakes for a long time.  Too bad they don't fill you that well.

PC's are the drive behind inflation, along with high prices in all the stores.  Though it makes sense for a commoner to have to save up for new gear/clothes/whatever, no one actually -does- it.  Noble houses should be able to pay their employees more than average, yet when they do, all the other clans instantly up their pay as well to match it, otherwise they don't have the PC strength.  I think we are our own problem in this.  The 'commoner rp', or rather 'not wealthy rp', is only there when the player -wants- it to be there and actually makes efforts to promote it.  If at all possible, that should be the other way around, methinks.

PC's who are given stipends...start with you.  Start tipping less.  Heh.

[cyberpatrol_735]

There aren't plots in farming?  Wasn't Tevia from Fiddler on the Roof a farmer (well, some sort of menial laborer)?  And yet that story is one of the most successful and acclaimed plays/musicals that I can think of off the top of my head.

If you don't think there is a plot to be found in the an "ordinary" life, you may be missing out one of Armageddon's strongest points.  The actual coded activity (be it farming, mining, training as a mercenary) matters far less than the character you choose to portray in it.  Additionally, some of the greatest events in history have been related to resources like grain, salt, etc.  Building the infrastructure to codedly emphasize resources like this is, in my opinion, a very good thing.  It just takes a while.

-- X

Superman was a farmer before he moved to metropolis to work for the daily planet. -laugh-

On that note, I think a real farming code would be cool. You water your plants, (if you can afford it) and in time, they grow, you cut them, etc.. plant them, etc.. skip a day? oh dang.. but I don't know how realistic that would be for the game, it would be sort of cool, but maybe not used so much because of it's complexity.

[Intrepid]

I have a few unusual commoner job ideas, if anyone is interested:

- Courier/messenger: With the cutthroat nature of the Known World, I
imagine this would be trusted to either a formidable house aide or a
mysterious third party who doesn't ask questions--a la The Transporter.

- Tax Collector: Yep.  For those times the templarate has a sense of
humor or just doesn't want to do it themselves.

- Slaver/Bounty hunter: Criminals on the run?  Mul give you the finger on
the way out of the Main Gates?  Call on these guys when you don't want
to risk your own crew getting mangled!

- Ambassador: Heh...ok, maybe not.

Another thing to consider is slave.  Yes, I said the S word.  These are
really the most down and out pcs in game, but they have a variety of
functions.  There are even scholar slaves.  Maybe I haven't been looking
in the right places recently, but I haven't seen any in game since my
return.

[ale six]

There aren't plots in farming?  Wasn't Tevia from Fiddler on the Roof a farmer (well, some sort of menial laborer)?  And yet that story is one of the most successful and acclaimed plays/musicals that I can think of off the top of my head.

It's a great musical, definitely. One of my favorites. The plot has more to do with Tevye the Milkman and his family's struggles to hold to their traditions and Jewish beliefs in the face of Tsarist oppression than it does about how hard his life is as a peasant. I'm not sure how much of a connection you can draw, other than to say that, sure, people from all walks of life have lives and feelings and emotions and struggle, which is a valid point... but I don't think it would make life as a Zalanthan farmer any less dull day to day.

Simply put, I'd rather play the game for action and intrigue and scheming rather than playing it so I can have my little peasant log in and struggle against the harshness for two RL weeks so I can finally buy myself a sandcloth cloak with the 75 sids profit I made. Meanwhile, there will be some guy who's made himself 500 sid in 4 hours of playtime who's decking himself out in full armor.

Which leads me to another point: unless people want to redefine the game's economy drastically, I feel like in order to play a poor, sidless commoner like everyone is describing, the players would have to voluntarily restrict themselves.

Now if there are people who would really like to do this, I say go for it. I certainly won't stop you. But I think roles like this are really voluntary ones, for players who enjoy the fun of handicapping themselves. And hey, I might do that sometime for fun -- but I don't think the game would be lacking anything without people doing it. I think all the mechanisms for this are already in the game anyway, as JGG said: you could just go be a miner or a logger or a hunter. Farming would be cool sure, but it's no different than any of that.

And to answer the thing about rich PCs giving out odd jobs, I'm certain they already are. The thing is, just like in the real world, if you want work you have to try and earn it some how. If you want to get odd jobs from people, approach them (or maybe their aide, in the case of a fancypants noble) and say hi, I'm Joe the assassin, if you ever have need of my services let me know. I'm very certain most people will try to make use of you somehow if they have any smarts.

I also have to say I disagree with Armaddict about PCs with stipends tipping less. PCs with big stipends are one of the biggest money sources in the game, and they're not being given thousands of sid per RL week so that they can sit on it in the bank or buy themselves 50 different outfits.  Stipend money isn't money that you've earned and can save, it's money you're being given so you can throw it around and generate plots. I think it's kind of backwards and silly to turn around and tell those PCs to save their money so that everyone can roleplay being poorer. Again, if you really want to keep yourself poor, hey go for it, but it means you're going to have to stay away from the 'rich' clan jobs and the rich nobles who throw money around to stay that way.

Edited to add: I agree with what Dakurus said about the game's scope being wider than the playerbase we have to support it, but I think narrowing the scope to encourage poorer and less influential PCs is going in the wrong direction.

[jhunter]

I think flushing out farming and the potential to raise mounts and such would be great "commoner" work.

I've always wanted to make a pc that breeds animals for mounts or some such thing.

[Dalmeth]

Commoner RP doesn't mean you have to be dirt poor.  It's primarily a mentality.

It's a bit boring that all the RP revolves around a templar, noble, or crimeboss.  Why not have a group that goes out to the mines regularly and one of them gets fired by the universally recognized boss of the group because that person is always showing up drunk?  Maybe nobles or merchant houses could hire this group on to fill in orders from time to time.

They could be reasonably successful at it and they'd still be commoners, but they wouldn't be caught up in the high-class world of rich nobles, templars, and merchants.  Nor would they quite be the hard-edged dune hoppers that wander in from time to time.

That sort of interaction sounds fun to me.

[amoeba]

Since a few IMMs chimed in let me clarify one players perspective.  

First I agree that having the PC population representative of the world population as a whole is a good thing, you'll get no argument from me there.  The devil however is in the details.  Take for the example  Xygax gave of Tevia from "Fiddler on the Roof".  Yes a classic about a farmer.  But lets be realistic, if the musical consisted of Tavia and crew wandering about the fields pulling up beets and dropping them into a basket and not much else, the audience would walk.  The fact that he was a farmer is background to the real story. And unlike Tavia, we don't come equipped with a supporting cast and a well developed storyline.  Often these type of roles are loners, and solo monologues can only take you so far.

The problem often times with mundane lives is the limited opportunity for any true conflict.  Most times a task such as going to shovel shit, will be just that, going to shovel shit. That is not to say that there can not be conflict with these lives, but there is nothing within the role that inherently drives it.  I don't log in to virtual farm, if I wanted to farm, I would go putz around in my much neglected garden. Being a farmer IG is fine, but as with Tavia, the interesting thing about the story is not how damn good a beet puller he is, but rather all the "stuff" going on around him.

The point is why do people join clans? A few reasons, one the opportunity for roleplay with other PC's is higher.   Two: IMM interaction is considerably higher on a regular basis in a clan. Three: many built in plots, or plot opportunities.  Independents are not privy to much of what is going on out there.  I know, I tend to not play a clannie, just a regular commoner.   You try to pick up on any interesting news in the tavern, but the seat warmers don't do much more than idle gossip, usually sexual inuendos, and the tandu and scrab are downright usless for information on plot lines to follow.

Saying that all would be wonderful in the RP world if there were more commoners, is all well and good, but it does not discount the fact that often the RP is rippingly dull in time.

[Cuusardo]

Because of this, it's nearly impossible for an unclanned character to engage in any meaningful conflict with the rest of the playerbase.

That is so not true.  It simply takes more work on the part of the player, because indies have to actually LOOK for things to get involved in rather than having a clan throw them into plots.