Fighting endurance

[Revelations]

To go with a certain thread on twinking out sparring, what if battle causes a certain amount of drain on endurance? Nothing that would be -too- great that you can't fight two consequetive oppenents, but enough that would be realistic. Also, depending upon how much endurance you have, it'll affect your combat skills slightly.

While it's likely a rare instance, here's an example.
If you've just met raiders and are skilled enough to battle them all, how realistic would it be if you could take them all down (while taking a days worth of fighting) if you've just ran across the entire desert without break, and is exhausted?

This could apply to sparring. Sparring for days on end would be considered twinking, but if there was a code restriction upon how long you could spar (exessively), would that not solve a bit of worrying?

That's it for now.  :wink:

[jhunter]

This has been brought up before and this is one of those cases where I'd have to say playability needs to take priority. Very seldom do I see people twinking out sparring anyway and most experienced players who are playing a pc in a leader position would nip it in the butt fast. So:


No.

Besides, sparring all day is mostly just poor rp with intent to powergame behind it. It isn't necessarily going to make you get better any faster than sparring for short periods of time throughout the day.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I've always wished that fighting would drain stamina, with a modifier based on the character's endurance attribute.

While RP'ing endurance limits is all well and good, I just don't see why we have a coded stamina system in place for walking around, where we don't have one for fighting.  In other words, why aren't we RP'ing walking endurance, if we're doing so for fighting?  I just don't see the playability argument going far here - after all, we're expected to RP our limit already.

[jhunter]

I've always wished that fighting would drain stamina, with a modifier based on the character's endurance attribute.

While RP'ing endurance limits is all well and good, I just don't see why we have a coded stamina system in place for walking around, where we don't have one for fighting.  In other words, why aren't we RP'ing walking endurance, if we're doing so for fighting?  I just don't see the playability argument going far here - after all, we're expected to RP our limit already.

Because several different things already affect stamina, adding combat would be a bit too much for playability. It wouldn't take into a account those that fight different styles that would either use up alot of stam fast or preserve stam by wearing down their opponent. It would involve alot more coding in order to make it work correctly. If stam was a factor then there should be the code support for this sort of fighting to utilize your stam, as it stands there is not. So basically you would have no choice and two equal opponents, discounting fighting styles, the winner would always be determined by who had the most stam NOT who had a fighting style to utilize their stamina better. Then it's not realistic for other reasons.

It's fine like it is.

[EvilRoeSlade]

It's not fine like it is.  In a drawn-out conflict between two equally skilled warriors, which one should win?  The one who has the greater endurance.

I think endurance should represent your ability to outlast your opponents in a fight, and this would be a great way to make that happen.

It doesn't really have anything to do with moderating sparring, and it probably wouldn't be a good way of doing that anyway.

[jhunter]

It's not fine like it is.  In a drawn-out conflict between two equally skilled warriors, which one should win?  The one who has the greater endurance.

I think endurance should represent your ability to outlast your opponents in a fight, and this would be a great way to make that happen.

It doesn't really have anything to do with moderating sparring, and it probably wouldn't be a good way of doing that anyway.

Which confirms my point.
There would have to be other additional coding to support a change like this. In situations where the combat skill isn't equal then other things like style and such would come into play as well. If something like this was added then the amount of stam used during combat would have to have some additional coding as well, taking into account guild and fighting style.

Just about nothing would piss me off more than having a warrior suck up stam during a fight just the same as a non-warrior guild or having a pc thats personality would be one that they would fight conservatively and still use up stam just the same as any other.

It would cure one problem and create more.

[Bestatte]

There's also the matter of encumbrance and choice of weapon (among other things), if you want to get techinical.

In a match between two warriors, which would have the edge?

The warrior with max endurance, wearing full plate armor and weilding the sparring dagger he forgot to put away at the barracks?

or the warrior with lousy endurance, wearing the absolute minimum needed to survive a smack from a sparring dagger?

You could go on and on like that and even say the faster (more agile) guy has the edge because he can dodge attacks better and a good shove against his armor-wearing foe would send the opponent keeling over onto his back where he'd writhe around like a turtle while the agile guy giggles and runs away unharmed.

Or the guy with the higher wisdom stat, because he wouldn't be stupid enough to engage in a fight where the opponent has the edge. How about adding auto-flee in those cases?

And so on and so forth.

Seems playability makes more sense than realism in this case.

[Larrath]

I'd like to see lower movement points giving a penalty to fighting, and to make combat lower movement points.  Maybe 3 points per round for normal people, 2 for rangers/assassins and 1 for warriors?  One point extra for heavy encumberence, and penalties similar to being overloaded with weight (slight at first and then real bad).
All assuming this will affect NPCs as well.

I think this will do a lot in helping get rid of spam-hunting.

[IntuitiveApathy]

There's also the matter of encumbrance and choice of weapon (among other things), if you want to get techinical.

Let's go back to my comparison with the movement system.

Does wearing full-plate armour affect how much stamina you lose when you're walking down that 2-stamina per league road?  No, it doesn't, on it's own.  (btw, I wish especially cumbersome and/or stifling items actually gave you a penalty to your maximum stamina, like sandcloth adds to it)

If you're encumbered to the max, then sure, it takes a hell of a lot of stamina to walk then.  But similarly, if you're encumbered to the max and trying to fight, well let's just say you're going to be going down amongst your sacks of bricks.

Maybe combat stamina should be affected by encumbrance too - but I think the skill penalties already in place are enough to reflect the reality of being encumbered and fighting.

But we're just talking stamina here - why shouldn't it be directly related to your character's endurance stat?  That agile elf that's dancing around will be expending just as much energy as the big slow dwarf that's trying to catch him, if you ask me - both are fighting to win (though if we could 'stop' in combat, per the other thread talking about one person not fighting back, that would be an interesting alternative that we could consider).  It all boils down to which character is fitter.

Further, I think if your character is strong enough to not be overly encumbered while wearing full-plate armour, then they should be able to walk, fight, mudsex, as long as anyone else - it's the relationship to max encumberance that's important.. full plate armour might be crazy for an elf, but maybe not so much for a mul.

But if you want to talk about mobility in terms of combat, then why not directly apply skill modifiers to different types of equipment?  I'm thinking primarily negative here - for instance, if your character chooses to wear full plate, they should have a large penalty to defense to reflect how much slower they would be.  They'd be well-armoured then, but 'slower' (an alternative, or possible combination could be to actually slow down the character's attack speed - though if this is solely linked to agility, maybe just impose a flat agility penalty instead of defense skill penalty - that could reflect the negation of mobility and reduce defense indirectly, as well as attack speed?).

Frankly, I think a combat stamina system could be simply implemented without any other consideration though, and I don't see problems with style coming into play - all styles will be tiring and since we can't reflect style in combat through the code currently anyway, why should this be different?

[jhunter]

(btw, I wish especially cumbersome and/or stifling items actually gave you a penalty to your maximum stamina, like sandcloth adds to it)

They do.

I'm thinking primarily negative here - for instance, if your character chooses to wear full plate, they should have a large penalty to defense to reflect how much slower they would be.

If so then armor should be much more protective than it currently is IMO.

Frankly, I think a combat stamina system could be simply implemented without any other consideration though, and I don't see problems with style coming into play - all styles will be tiring and since we can't reflect style in combat through the code currently anyway, why should this be different?

Because in this case the code would be entirely against combat pcs and not reflect the realistic positives of certain styles. If you want to be realistic, be realistic in all aspects, not just in the ones that benefit what you in particular like to play or hinder those you have something against.

The way it is now is no more unrealistic than making the change without taking into consideration the other aspects that have been mentioned.

[Synthesis]

Getting into a fight is dangerous enough as it is, without having to worry about your endurance going down with it.  I know this isn't a compelling reason if your primary focus is "realism," but if you also consider "playability," you'll realize it's a big issue.

If this were added to the game, you would see the vast majority of newbie independents disappear, because it would be impossible to survive on your own as a combat-oriented (hunting) character.  It's already -quite- difficult to do so.

Also, desert-elves would be put at a -huge- disadvantage under this scenario, unless you gave them some sort of special consideration.  They already end up fighting most of their battles winded or tired...if they ended up exhausted after a fight, hunting would be just about impossible.

You'd also have to account for a host of other things that aren't realistic about the stamina system, and you'd have to completely re-balance the entire combat system toward shorter fights (or give everyone a shitload more stamina points).

So, in summary: good for realism, bad for playability.

[IntuitiveApathy]

(btw, I wish especially cumbersome and/or stifling items actually gave you a penalty to your maximum stamina, like sandcloth adds to it)

They do.

Then the penalty system should be expanded, because I've never seen an item that has it (despite their descriptions plainly stating that they would).

Getting into a fight is dangerous enough as it is, without having to worry about your endurance going down with it.  I know this isn't a compelling reason if your primary focus is "realism," but if you also consider "playability," you'll realize it's a big issue.

I think the playability advocates are concerned that you're going to be losing stamina very quickly - this doesn't necessarily have to be the case.  A typical soft fighting limit is two hours for combat characters, for RP purposes.  But even then, fighting straight for two hours, we don't expect people to RP so that their characters are so tired they would drop to the floor gasping for breath, unable to move.  I think reasonably, being at around 40% stamina after two hours straight of fighting (~20 RL minutes!), or 30% per hour, for the average stamina isn't excessive, nor does it destroy playability of hunting types.  One could always make an argument for more or less, but I think that's a reasonable midpoint to take for the rate of stamina drain.

a) People have been spoiled by the current state of hunting, where you can essentially hunt endlessly all day without repercussion, if you're riding.  Walking, you're only limited by how far you can walk - if your prey is all in a small area, you could maul the entire eco-system in a day.  If your character is going to take more than a couple hours to take down its prey, then it probably shouldn't be trying to take down that prey (or may not even be able to) - ideally, the combat-stamina system would also apply to mobs.  In the current reality, any relatively successful hunter can easily make boatloads of sid - see those old threads talking about independents vs. clanners.

b) Desert elves have been rebalanced in the past.  I remember when could easily have in excess of 200 stamina points and movement costs were different.  Give them the same numerical (not proportional) combat stamina costs (allowing them more leftover stamina than other races after the same amount of fighting) and I think things should be fine - if not, reduce the movement costs again, or increase their natural maximums.  If desert elves are actually on a higher scale of the endurance stat compared to other races (rather than just getting special consideration for running), then combat stamina drain shouldn't be a critical issue at all - it'd be slow enough that they could still run on to their next target afterward.

c) If the combat stamina seems too draining for playability, this could be easily accomodated by boosting stamina regeneration rates, especially outdoors.  Actually I find outdoor vs. indoor regen rates to be too disparate (outdoor should be sped up a little, while indoor should be slowed down a little).  But even as it is, I could see it being realistic and very playable - it would limit hunters to taking down only a few targets a day rather than the current virtually unlimited amount.  It would also force them to seek shade/shelter to rest up.

Because in this case the code would be entirely against combat pcs and not reflect the realistic positives of certain styles. If you want to be realistic, be realistic in all aspects, not just in the ones that benefit what you in particular like to play or hinder those you have something against.

The style argument doesn't fly with me.  Want to know why?  Because even if you want to RP that your character is 'fighting conservatively', the code is telling me that your character is fighting for their life.  It doesn't matter if the character is a combat-oriented one, or not.  It doesn't matter if you -want- your character to just fight defensively, or just fight standing on one foot, or fight blind-folded, because codedly, you just can't.  So when I'm talking about fighting styles, I'm talking about fighting styles that would all be equally as tiring, because they're all equally as effective in the old DIKU roots of the game.

I think if we implemented combat stamina with our current system, it wouldn't have anything to do with implementing customizable combat styles.  If one day in the future, we (very wonderfully) got that ability as players to do that with our characters, then the combat stamina system would obviously have to work with that.  As things stand now, I don't see why a combat stamina system couldn't simply be implemented with the current uncustomizable state of the combat code.

[Synthesis]

I don't know where people are getting the idea that you can spam hunt and wipe everything in an entire area clean.  You just can't do it as one person, unless you're in an area where there are very few things to kill in the first place.

Most easily-killed critters run away, and have enough stamina points that it only takes a few of them before a mount is exhausted.  Not to mention that if you're spending all day outside, you get dehydrated very quickly, and you eventually have to return for water.

What you're probably feeling is the impact of several PC hunters in the same area at the same or different times.

Now, moving on to the suggestion:  I'd agree with it, if you set a two-hour minimum of fighting before it would kick in.  But here again, this is a playability concern, and it only affects evenly matched combatants.  No fight between unevenly matched opponents -ever- stretches out for several hours, except in sparring situations.

And in sparring situations, none of this malarkey even matters, except to briefly inconvenience spam-sparrers.  And it doesn't even inconvenience them significantly, since in an indoor area, you can rest from 0 to 150 stamina in just a few minutes (less, if you're a ranger).

So, basically...it all boils down to a great coding nuisance, with either heinous repercussions, or no effect at all.

I'm going to keep my vote 'no.'

[jhunter]

The style argument doesn't fly with me. Want to know why? Because even if you want to RP that your character is 'fighting conservatively', the code is telling me that your character is fighting for their life. It doesn't matter if the character is a combat-oriented one, or not. It doesn't matter if you -want- your character to just fight defensively, or just fight standing on one foot, or fight blind-folded, because codedly, you just can't. So when I'm talking about fighting styles, I'm talking about fighting styles that would all be equally as tiring, because they're all equally as effective in the old DIKU roots of the game.

I think if we implemented combat stamina with our current system, it wouldn't have anything to do with implementing customizable combat styles. If one day in the future, we (very wonderfully) got that ability as players to do that with our characters, then the combat stamina system would obviously have to work with that. As things stand now, I don't see why a combat stamina system couldn't simply be implemented with the current uncustomizable state of the combat code.

Dude, you simply aren't comprehending. What I'm saying is that if something like this were added, I want the -option- of the code supporting fighting styles implemented along with it. Right now since stam isn't a factor it doesn't matter what your fighting style is in that aspect, if it is implemented, it -would- matter. Also, you are asking for this for reasons of realism right? Well, if that's the case then combat guilds would realistically use much less stamina than non-combat guilds in a fight.

jhunter wrote:
Quote:
(btw, I wish especially cumbersome and/or stifling items actually gave you a penalty to your maximum stamina, like sandcloth adds to it)


They do.  


Then the penalty system should be expanded, because I've never seen an item that has it (despite their descriptions plainly stating that they would).

I'm sure it takes some time to get all the appropriate items set up this way, I've seen many and when you've more time with this game under your belt so will you.

[jhunter]

What you're probably feeling is the impact of several PC hunters in the same area at the same or different times.

Agreed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, overhunting is an IC issue. If it affects your pc ICly, then deal with it ICly.

[X-D]

I'm against stam drains in combat more for playability reasons then anything.

But also because adding such would add little to the game IMO and for a huge cost in code work and rebalance.

[Tamarin]

Is there anything people actually -want- added to the game?  I often wonder this.

[Revelations]

What of having a slight disadvantage at combat when at very tired or exhausted states of endurance? This might already be the case, but I'm just throwing it out here.

[jhunter]

What of having a slight disadvantage at combat when at very tired or exhausted states of endurance? This might already be the case, but I'm just throwing it out here.

I don't really have a problem with this if it isn't in already (just don't want to see more things come out of your movement consistantly), I know that encumberance affects how well you fight.

Is there anything people actually -want- added to the game? I often wonder this.

Actually a few things that have been mentioned repeatedly over the years....a hidden emote, a noresist feature...etc.... First thing though, I'd like to see existing things get flushed out fully before new things are added. Brew is the biggest one I can think of.

[Cyrian20]

What of having a slight disadvantage at combat when at very tired or exhausted states of endurance? This might already be the case, but I'm just throwing it out here.

This seems the simplest to implement to me probably, and allows for a lot of playability with the touch of realism, not an uber penalty... But something would be nice. Only thing is people will be taking advantage when they hunt and what not, either by running from prey until it is tired if it is aggro, or chasing it if it isn't. Either way this seems better in the long run if we have to add this.

[Synthesis]

You already suffer combat penalties when exhausted in combat.  So do NPCs.  Be advised.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Dude, you simply aren't comprehending. What I'm saying is that if something like this were added, I want the -option- of the code supporting fighting styles implemented along with it. Right now since stam isn't a factor it doesn't matter what your fighting style is in that aspect, if it is implemented, it -would- matter. Also, you are asking for this for reasons of realism right? Well, if that's the case then combat guilds would realistically use much less stamina than non-combat guilds in a fight.

We obviously aren't seeing eye to eye here.  

You are convinced of one thing, while I am of the other.  Which is fine if you want to ignore my reasons, but I don't appreciate you bluntly insulting me by accusing me of not understanding what you're rather unequivocally saying without any reasoning of your own.  

So since you only seem to want to listen to yourself and insult someone that's actually presenting an argument, I'll save my breath, thanks.

[jhunter]

So since you only seem to want to listen to yourself and insult someone that's actually presenting an argument, I'll save my breath, thanks.

Funny, that appears to be what this post of yours is all about, you only listening to yourself. You aren't presenting a worthwhile argument to my point because you aren't getting it. I don't recall having insulted you, I only stated what was apparent to me from your posts.

I explained myself, but since you choose not to hear it...

The point is that the way things are -NOW-, IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT STYLE ISN'T TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT BECAUSE STAM ISN'T. IF STAM -WAS- TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT THEN IT -WOULD MATTER- IF STYLE WAS OR NOT SINCE STYLE DIRECTLY CORRELATES TO HOW EFFECTIVELY SOMEONE USES THEIR STAMINA.

*Whew*