Re: Crafting Tools

[Delirium]

How do you all feel about making it impossible to craft without RP appropriate tools - assuming we make them available where appropriate?

What you're doing now sounds really neat.

However, in regards to requiring tools -- I'm a little leery of it.  I've seen it in action and when it gets over the top, it makes crafting a chore and a bore.  I personally enjoy only needing one or two coded tools (though they're not actually required codewise) and making virtual use of the rest.  It makes the scene easy to roleplay.  

Instead of requiring more tools, I would prefer to see guidelines and "how to's" -- how Zalanthans tan the hides of the beasts they hunt (you could get creative and vary it from real world processes, even), how they cook using the heat of the sun as well as the heat of a fire -- bone fires, cactus fires, dung fires, wood fires -- how they dye their clothing, how they knap stone.  I'd rather see that, and let the player roleplay the situation with help from the code, than force the player to submit to the code and leave little room for creativity.

If you do decide to require crafting tools, let's keep it simple, please! We already have quite a selection of tools that it's possible to gather in-game, and there would be little more aggravating than the following situation:

Code Select Expand

>get bowl shelves
You get a bowl from a set of carved shelves.

>get flour shelves
You get a sack of flour from a set of carved shelves.

>get cup shelves
You get a measuring cup from a set of carved shelves.

>get spices shelves
You get some spices from a set of carved shelves.

>get fruit shelves
You get a kalan fruit from a set of carved shelves.

>get knife shelves
You get a knife from a set of carved shelves.

>craft bowl flour cup spices fruit kalan knife into loaf of kalan bread.
You begin mixing some dough in a bowl.

>emote after peeling ~fruit with ~knife, @ begins to--
You mix the spices, then add in some chopped fruit.

<deletes previous emote, begins writing a new one>
You knead the bread, punching it with your fists.

<deletes yet another emote, because it now doesn't make any sense..>
You let the bread rise, then stick it in the oven.

<fingertips strum>
You need to light the oven first.

think Krath DAMMIT.
You think: Krath DAMMIT.

>get flint apron
You get a flint kit from a ragged apron.

>get wood crate
You get a piece of wood from a crate.

>get wood crate
You get a piece of wood from a crate.

>put wood oven
You put a piece of wood into a baking oven.

>put wood oven
You put a piece of wood into a baking oven.

>light oven
Using a flint strike kit, you try to get a baking oven alight, but fail.

>light oven
Using a flint strike kit, you light a baking oven.

>craft bowl flour cup spices fruit kalan knife into loaf of kalan bread.
You begin mixing some dough in a bowl....

When we force the code to dictate everything, we suck a lot of the fluidity and the creativity of the situation out.  If instead of letting the player emote the process and make use of virtual items to create a fairly seamless roleplayed scenario, the player must make use of a cumbersome amount of coded tools and go through a tedious number of steps, it becomes more work and less fun.  This is ultimately a game, and I'm wary of seeing the pendulum swing too far to the "realism" side.

[Anael]

I have some experience from another MUD where you needed tools like that to craft, and there's one problem I can see with it:
People often ended up spending days and days trying to find a simple cooking pot just to be able to cook. Seems a bit silly hm? Perhaps if each craft had a way to create crappy tools for itself (some crafts already have this feature, I know)...

[Naiona]

I should add that there is no current official plan to require tools, this is me musing.

However, if we did, we would make them readily available to those who should have them.  The idea is to make crafting more realistic, and it seems like things like hammers, needles and cooking pots should be realistically available to pretty much everyone, not turn the task of making a loaf of bread into a trek to another city for a rolling pin.

[flurry]

I agree with the concerns above.

If tools were needed to do crafting skills, I'd rather it maybe be one tool needed out of any of several varieties.   i.e. You need a pair of scissors, but any of twenty different kinds of scissors would be fine.   Maybe with the particular selection of scissors having some impact on success/failure.

[HardCarbon]

I agree with the concerns above.

If tools were needed to do crafting skills, I'd rather it maybe be one tool needed out of any of several varieties.   i.e. You need a pair of scissors, but any of twenty different kinds of scissors would be fine.   Maybe with the particular selection of scissors having some impact on success/failure.

Some tools are needed for some things (nuff said).  I would like more information about the tools I am using.. and how good or bad they are.  Some tools are props.. some are not..

[flurry]

Yeah, I should have written "If tools were needed for most or all crafting...."

[Cale_Knight]

I think it would be awesome if the tools were more readily available, but I'd rather they weren't codedly required.

[moab]

I think they should be required.
Finallly, the tinker will come into his own!

Seriously, though, I like this idea - however, needed items for common recipies shouldn't be a secret (posted in help files somewhere or a "crafting" webpage.

Even now I hate wondering if I need sandpaper or a sanding block.  Sure you can ask IC, but in RL I can figure out most simple things myself.  (Simple =  less than three things to create final item)

[Anonymous]

I should add that there is no current official plan to require tools, this is me musing.

However, if we did, we would make them readily available to those who should have them.  The idea is to make crafting more realistic, and it seems like things like hammers, needles and cooking pots should be realistically available to pretty much everyone, not turn the task of making a loaf of bread into a trek to another city for a rolling pin.

I'm not Delirium, but I think I have an idea what she is referring to.

Requiring a tool for crafting is an awesome idea and I hope it happens.  The problem I had with another game's crafting system that made it tedious was when you have something like the following:

[Armor Working]
Scrab Shell Helmet Recipe
Requires: 1 scrab shell
1 wooden mallet

Scrab Shell Gauntlets
Requires: 1 scrab shell
1 sharpened carving knife

Scrab Shell Boots
Requires: 1 scrab shell
1 mekillot bone needle

etc, etc.  If there were just classes of tools flagged as [Armormaking] that could be used interchangeably (with varying effects on success) then it would be great.

Edit: Or what Flurry said, since I just said the same thing over again.

[Naiona]

Yes.  If we were to design something that required tools, it would be done in classes of tools, not in specifics. (With the exception of some rare and special crafting recipes that would need things like huge looms or furnaces)

Also, this is the kind of project that would take a LONG time to implement.  So don't worry that you'll see these changes tomorrow.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would very much like to see a fire required to cook meat, or a chisel to sculpt stone, etc.

[Delirium]

If fires were required to cook meat, please make more things capable of building and maintaining fires first.  Bone, kank dung, cactus, whatever.

[Anonymous]

If fires were required to cook meat, please make more things capable of building and maintaining fires first.  Bone, kank dung, cactus, whatever.

I liked the 'meat on a piece of obsidian in the noon sun' cooking method as well.  I figure it would be the same thing as a clothes iron-grilled cheese.