Armors, give meh usefull armors.

[Cavus]

I'd like to see stronger armors which can absorb most of the damage -often-. I love games that gives advantage to players with heavy armor. As docs say, armor has little effect in this game, but why? Items are important for most people other than just a fashion.
I mean I like Diablo serie, Neverwinter Nights, Sacred, Spellforce, and others ... much because they have many items which have really a use in game, not for fashion.

[wizturbo]

Get a suit of silt horror armor and tell me its "uneffective".

[fearwig]

There is something of a point to it, even if the statement itself read as kind of based on silliness to me--hard armor doesn't tend to take the full brunt of even rather weak attacks, and really the difference between "cheap" hard armor and "quality" hard armor should be how long it lasts, whereas how well it protects would actually be relatively similar in reality. As it is, even cheap armors last forever, so that distinction isn't there to be made.

[Cavus]

Hmm, I used * from braxat shell (not standart * in shops). Don't you think it is strong enough to stop many blows? Damn, killing a braxat is very hard, but getting blow with braxat armor is still easy.


*: no need to use ic names.

Edit: importance of armor...Knights in Middle Ages wore steel plates to gain advantage. They lost flexibility, but...Well, it is hard to shoot them with a wooden or stone tipped arrows. Or, a weak person with a sword cannot -slash- him. But, a weak person with spear may hit to knight from his joint areas. Just a simple example.

[fearwig]

Hmm, I used * from braxat shell (not standart * in shops). Don't you think it is strong enough to stop many blows? Damn, killing a braxat is very hard, but getting blow with braxat armor is still easy.

Sorry, what the hell did you just try to say? I'm totally lost here.

Is it easier to score cocaine when wearing braxat gear?

Most heavy armors should have equivalent, rather high-levels of protection in return for weighing you down. The really great ones should be a -little- better in practice than the cheap ones. The biggest distinction, as I said, would be that the cheap ones should break and chip and become less effective early, while the great ones would last.

But as it is, you are only protected very much if you get uber-super-expensive armor, which isn't all that realistic. And even the cheapest armors last forever. That's what I'm saying.

I agree with you, though, that heavy enough armor could block all damage from, say, a dagger, a formidable amount of the time. But it would slow you down to such an extent that some portion of this advantage would be negated as you take more attacks. All this should be reflected in the code to a greater degree than it is now.

But it's not that urgent a fix, I don't think. It's not a bad system the way it is now, it's just not the most realistic in the world.

[Cavus]

Sorry, what the hell did you just try to say? I'm totally lost here.

Is it easier to score cocaine when wearing braxat gear?

Most heavy armors should have equivalent, rather high-levels of protection in return for weighing you down. The really great ones should be a -little- better in practice than the cheap ones. The biggest distinction, as I said, would be that the cheap ones should break and chip and become less effective early, while the great ones would last.

But as it is, you are only protected very much if you get uber-super-expensive armor, which isn't all that realistic. And even the cheapest armors last forever. That's what I'm saying.

Man, I am talking about increasing overall armor protection effect in game. I am not talking about bla bla armor. If you read docs, armor is not important in this game. Only some uber heavy ones give some reasonable amount of protection. But, what I wanted is to increase the protection of all armors to some level. Wearing a 20 coin armor should have some effect compared to being naked.

I want to feel that I am using an armor. Arranging levels of protection among armor kinds is not my concern. Just feel the armor, not feel the spear in your head or ass. :-)

[wizturbo]

20 coin armor does have an effect compared to not wearing anything at all.

There are inexpensive armors that protect very well, but they are HEAVY.  Thats how the world is, without metal, protection is very hard to achieve without enormous bulk.

Shells like silt horror, are a great balance of weight for the protection it gives, which is why its highly sought after.  Some armor you scrap together from braxat's hide isn't going to be as effective as something you get from Salarr, because armor making isn't all about the material it also has to do with the skill of the armor maker.

[Bestatte]

Obviously braxat hide armor isn't gonna be all THAT protective. Afterall, it didn't protect the braxat you got the hide from, did it?

Basically, the whole point of armor not being "all that" is because we have skills. No one should EVER have to rely completely on armor to keep from getting nicked, because someone who is a trained fighter, or a trained hunter, or a tribal who grew up with "the harshness of the wilderness" would know how to use their body to keep that pointy thing away from their chest.

Armor is supposed to help protect you. It isn't supposed to be the primary source of protection. You are your primary source of protection.

[Cavus]

Obviously braxat hide armor isn't gonna be all THAT protective. Afterall, it didn't protect the braxat you got the hide from, did it?

Basically, the whole point of armor not being "all that" is because we have skills. No one should EVER have to rely completely on armor to keep from getting nicked, because someone who is a trained fighter, or a trained hunter, or a tribal who grew up with "the harshness of the wilderness" would know how to use their body to keep that pointy thing away from their chest.

Armor is supposed to help protect you. It isn't supposed to be the primary source of protection. You are your primary source of protection.

Hmm, I want to make it clear. Not hide, I said shell. Other than that, I am listening (not reading :-) ) your comments. It seems everyone has right points from their own viewpoint.

[Bestatte]

Ah, alright. Well you specified braxat, and I didn't know braxats had shells. I thought they only had hides....since on occasion you'll see braxat-HIDE armor in this or that shop.

As for shells..consider this for a moment..

Shells would need to be either extremely thick and unwieldy, or extremely thin and malleable, or it wouldn't be useful at all.

The thick/unwieldy type would likely bring someone with "exceptional" strength with a "very light" encumbrance down to "very heavy" if they were decked out in a full suit of it. Definitely not something you'd want to wear out in the desert, where speed is important and you need the stamina to run.

The thin/malleable type wouldn't protect nearly as much as a stiff cuoirboulli set of armor (can't spell it, boiled leather is what I mean), but at least you'd be able to raise your sword-arm over your head.

Anything between those two extremes would probably shatter into lovely little shards the moment something blunt hit it. Not even good enough for a paper-weight, though a nice sized chunk might make a pretty charm around your dead neck.

The last point you need to remember, is this: The thicker and less malleable the armor, the more space needed between the joints, which makes those joints MUCH more prone to damage than a full body-set of boiled leather. The thinner and more malleable the armor, the less protection it provides against crushing blows.

I think the armor currently in the game provides plenty of variety to choose from, and gives people reason to choose carefully rather than everyone and their brother all running around in the same thing just because it's the most protective.

Thicker = more protective, harder to move around in.
Thinner = less protective, easier to move around in.

Either can contribute to death, or prevent it, depending on the situation. Risk vs. reward. If it was just reward with no risk, available to everyone (or even everyone with the sids), it would cause a horrible crunch to game integrity.

[Zharal]

Man, I am talking about increasing overall armor protection effect in game. I am not talking about bla bla armor. If you read docs, armor is not important in this game. Only some uber heavy ones give some reasonable amount of protection. But, what I wanted is to increase the protection of all armors to some level. Wearing a 20 coin armor should have some effect compared to being naked.

I want to feel that I am using an armor. Arranging levels of protection among armor kinds is not my concern. Just feel the armor, not feel the spear in your head or ass. :-)

Actually armor is important in this game depending on what you do.  I don't belive you guys have experiment enough with it to see that different armors have different rating.  Some cheaper armors actually do very well.
And some just plain suck.  But there is also the fact that you can take a unskilled warrior and deck him in the best armor and fact is he/or she is unskilled and is going to get his/or her ass kicked, it depends on a lot more then just the armor rating.  How well are you trained in combat?  How well is your opponent trained?  If you end up having matched foes the very sway of the battle may very well depend on who has better armor and weapons.

[jhunter]

The thick/unwieldy type would likely bring someone with "exceptional" strength with a "very light" encumbrance down to "very heavy" if they were decked out in a full suit of it. Definitely not something you'd want to wear out in the desert, where speed is important and you need the stamina to run.

It's not metal armor. This I have to disagree with. Perhaps it should realistically bring an average strength human down to that encumbrance but not those who have exceptional strength. If it were metal I would agree, but the weight is nothing compared to the weight of metal armors used during medieval times.

[Cavus]

The thick/unwieldy type would likely bring someone with "exceptional" strength with a "very light" encumbrance down to "very heavy" if they were decked out in a full suit of it. Definitely not something you'd want to wear out in the desert, where speed is important and you need the stamina to run.

It's not metal armor. This I have to disagree with. Perhaps it should realistically bring an average strength human down to that encumbrance but not those who have exceptional strength. If it were metal I would agree, but the weight is nothing compared to the weight of metal armors used during medieval times.

...And, weapons are not also metal, so bone armor vs. bone weapon - steel weapons versus steel armor. But, I am agree with that skill effects make sense, and game is real enough. But, I could be more happy if I could feel armor. You know in some games(mostly 3D) you look for better items although there are levels and skills. Anyway, in any case I love Arm. :-)

[Delirium]

Armor does make a difference.

No, it won't prevent you from being hit at all, or absorb ALL damage, or even all types of damage, but the difference is there.

And if anyone's wearing a full suit of silt horror armor out in the desert, they deserve to get smacked upside the head, methinks. I see heavy armors as more of a status symbol than something anyone in their right mind would wear for the day-to-day rigors of combat and travel. That shit is heavy and hot.

[jhunter]

It's made from chitin and the hides of animals that live in the hot environment, I'm sure there is something about it that makes it a bit cooler. Also, I would think that armorers would be designing it with the heat in mind as well otherwise they wouldn't make it at all.

[Delirium]

Or they designed it for combat-oriented people who live in the city and don't constantly run around the wastes - mercenaries, guards, soldiers, and so on.

I realize it's a matter of perspective in many ways, and we'll probably end up having to agree to disagree. I have no problem with small pieces of heavy armor - helmets and collars for example - but being decked out head to toe in it while roaming the wastes just seems like a recipie for dehydration and disaster.

[Cuusardo]

Armor is not supposed to protect you from every single solitary blow.  That is why guards train, so that they can learn to evade or parry attacks better.  Relying solely on one's armor to keep from getting damaged is just plain foolish.

[Trenidor]

Some good points have been brought up:

Most armor currently IG doesn't have umph.

You could wear a wooden breastplate, and every time you get hit on the chest, wearing that plate doesn't mean anything. Realistically, a thick board is going to block 99% of damage unless it breaks. Sure you'll get dings and knicks in the plate, but the damage won't carry on to the wearer. In game, it's not like that, the code I've observed appears to be something like:

You get swumg at, have a chance to evade, then get hit, you have a % (based probably off of how well it covers the area) to hit your armor instead of your skin, then damages apply.

This poses a problem when you have armor that should typically protect you from most attacks on that area. The problem here, is that it takes a lot of thinking and cross-thinking to design something that would acurately simulate the things armor does:

Take blows and supress the discomfort of being hit.
That means padding, and covering soft spots suceptible to being hit. When armor becomes symbolism however, it turns into more: design, and causal wear conforture.

The reason armor was developed, was more for recruiting purposes, mainly two reasons. First, armor will allow for quicker training, the armor will keep them alive, they won't have to worry about being killed, but they will train more so for offence. Second, armor will convice people that they won't be hurt as easily, and they recruit in.

I'm going to focus more on the first reason however. Armor was deveopled specifically so it's wearers would stay alive longer to do more damage. Many armors IG don't do that. In fact, one could argue that wearing armor as it is slows you down and prevents you from protecting yourself.

My suggestion to this whole thing?

The coverage % needs to be raised on many armors, and armors need to break more frequently (specifically softer armors). Broken armor would lower the coverage % substantially.

Catagorize armors carefully, mainly by how long they'd last, or how hard or soft the material used is. Typically, leather is the weakest armor out there IRL. I'm guessing all those duskhorn armors could easily be stabbed through (which means they break easier) as well as carru and goudra.

I don't know much about the breaking of armor, because I've only seen it once, but the weapon that broke it was a bludgeon. I'm guessing that weapons would have to be adapted as well, stabbing weapons and chopping would make destroying armor easy, slicing would be around the middle, and bludgeons would likely only break armor after a long time.

[wizturbo]

Trenidor:

I think you've got armor all wrong.  If someone hits you with a mace, while your wearing ANY armor, its going to hurt VERY BADLY.  You might not have your chest caved in, because you have armor, but you're still going to be injured.  Armor is not meant to STOP blows, its meant to reduce their severity.  The code reflects this.  From my experiences, armor acts as a damage reduction, where your actual defensive skills determine whether or not you get hit.

When you get a message that says, "Bounces off armor" I believe thats indicating that the damage was too low, and was completely absorbed by the armor.  So let say silt horror shells have a reduction of "5".  You swing your bastard sword and hit for 7 damage, of that 7 you subtract 5, leaving only 2 damage that actually hits home.  If you only hit for 5 damage though, then 5-5=0 and you get the message that the armor absorbed the blow.

I could be wrong, but this is how i've observed things.

[Cavus]

Trenidor:

I think you've got armor all wrong.  If someone hits you with a mace, while your wearing ANY armor, its going to hurt VERY BADLY.  You might not have your chest caved in, because you have armor, but you're still going to be injured.  Armor is not meant to STOP blows, its meant to reduce their severity.  The code reflects this.  From my experiences, armor acts as a damage reduction, where your actual defensive skills determine whether or not you get hit.

When you get a message that says, "Bounces off armor" I believe thats indicating that the damage was too low, and was completely absorbed by the armor.  So let say silt horror shells have a reduction of "5".  You swing your bastard sword and hit for 7 damage, of that 7 you subtract 5, leaving only 2 damage that actually hits home.  If you only hit for 5 damage though, then 5-5=0 and you get the message that the armor absorbed the blow.

I could be wrong, but this is how i've observed things.

Wiz, the point here is to make that 5 rating of Silt let's say 8, so it will make difference. But, while increasing silt horror rating, other armors should be increased reasonably(being leather, being hard, being fragile, etc.), too.

[wizturbo]

Trenidor:

I think you've got armor all wrong.  If someone hits you with a mace, while your wearing ANY armor, its going to hurt VERY BADLY.  You might not have your chest caved in, because you have armor, but you're still going to be injured.  Armor is not meant to STOP blows, its meant to reduce their severity.  The code reflects this.  From my experiences, armor acts as a damage reduction, where your actual defensive skills determine whether or not you get hit.

When you get a message that says, "Bounces off armor" I believe thats indicating that the damage was too low, and was completely absorbed by the armor.  So let say silt horror shells have a reduction of "5".  You swing your bastard sword and hit for 7 damage, of that 7 you subtract 5, leaving only 2 damage that actually hits home.  If you only hit for 5 damage though, then 5-5=0 and you get the message that the armor absorbed the blow.

I could be wrong, but this is how i've observed things.

Wiz, the point here is to make that 5 rating of Silt let's say 8, so it will make difference. But, while increasing silt horror rating, other armors should be increased reasonably(being leather, being hard, being fragile, etc.), too.

I think things are just fine.  Armor IS valuable in current state.  Expensive and rare armors are already significantly effective.  If you want better than that, seek magickal aide, because the world does not contain materials to provide extremely protective armor unless your Tektolnes himself and can afford to have a metal suit of armor crafted (and magick to prevent yourself from passing out after 5 minutes in the sun).

Yes, yes, some shells can be very effective, but that doesn't mean they can be crafted into a mobile suit of armor.  There are always gaps in armor, and the protective rating of that armor is determined in part by how easy it is to bypass.

[Trenidor]

Expencive armor is effective yes.

My post was only to stress that stupid armor is weak, and should be resembled as weak. A hit with a mace will break cheap crappy armor, but in the game that's not the case, I've had cheap stupid stuff block spear stabs, which is rediculus for soft fur.

--

Just to further explain for some people...

I stated that from what I've observed there seams to be a % of being hit and your armor being hit. This simulates gaps in your armor, so yes, I agree entirely that your shell isn't going to be a mobile suit of armor. What I mean however, is that the % is messed up, that chest plate that says in the description that it extrends under the neck to the waste, would only have a small % of opening at where it meets the other locations. Just for value purpose let's say 5%. That % is adaptable acording to the attackers acuracy, increasing if they're skilled, and decreasing if they aren't.

Compare that to the bra plate that leaves the whole belly covered, 5% is a major difference to 75% that the bra has. However, from my experence the % has little or nothing to do with the armor, but the character.

Making your protection chance % field vary more means that weak armors have very significant change from your silt horor breastplate.

For example: You could try to run into a pack of attack dogs wearing a carru leather jacket, carru leggings, and carru sleeves, but even if you dodge some of their bites, they're going to tear that leather to sheads. Read the description of carru and you'll see what I mean.
Carru: Supple, brownish leather
SUPPLE ! That means bendable, which means soft and weak.

They could bite you on the waist, where the leggings and the jacket don't cover, and that has nothing to do with what I said earlier, this means the armor failed the hit test. But when they bite you on the leg, they peirce the leggings. This means they break it because it's no longer how it once was. They could bite in that same broken spot and it would be just like the armor failed.

My suggestion stated this exact thing: Armor should break easier acording to material and quality, meaning when the dog bites, if it's jaw is more damaging than the armor is protecting, it breaks. This would then increase the chance of the armor missing protection, or in other words, the dog has more of a chance to hit the skin of the person rather than preventing full damage.

[Delirium]

Armor breaks. Trust me.

When you take damage through armor that hasn't broken, think of it more as bruising damage, or a scratch or a gouge in the armor that reduces its appearance but not its effectiveness. Because I've experienced first hand a piece of armor going from mint condition to 'used' with a single well-placed blow, and more than once.

I don't see anything particularly wrong with the way armor works now. Besides, you're not really badass until you can whoop a braxat with one hand tied behind your back while wearing nothing but a loincloth and a string of beads.

More seriously, I don't recommend relying on armor to keep you out of trouble. Rely more on common sense, evasive and offensive skills, and knowing when you're outmatched.

[Maybe42or54]

And then I died.

If you are a half giant and you want to spar against a mul or are a mul and want vice verse.. Then armor alreayd loses value real quick like.