Rolling, rolling, rolling (Wagons)

[Sanvean]

People keep saying they'll send me ideas about how the wagon code should work, but I've yet to see one.  So let's take it up on here.  How should the wagon code work, if we revamp it?

Some ideas:

Wagons should be damageable.  They would take damage from travelling over just about any sector other than road.  This makes the wagon repair skill useful.  Some wagons might have plating to make them take more damage.  I'll get to people-inflicted damage in a minute.

Wagons should depend on mounts.  Mounts would tire as they pulled the wagon along and have to rest.  I'd think that on the trip from Allanak to Tuluk, one would have to stop 1? 2? 3? times, and that probably there would be places where wagons often sheltered.  For example, Luirs.  If others are necessary, we should probably have them spring up.

Some mounts have more endurance than others; others are faster than others.  How else might they differ?

Should you be able to hitch disparate mounts?  I.e. an inix and a kank?  What about an inix and a mekillot?  That seems as though it shouldn't work.

One thing the staff has talked about in the past is having "trained" mounts.  It would be easier, for example, to ride a mount that has been trained for riding; it might be easier to pilot a mount that has been trained for pulling wagons.

Attacking wagons: this is the biggie that (I think) everyone wants.  How to represent the virtual outriders or guards that a caravan might have?  You should be able to set wagons on fire or otherwise damage them.

What else should be included in this list of ideas?

[joyofdiscord]

Hmmm, means of attacking/impeding/confusing the mounts pulling the wagon would be useful, I suppose.

[Larrath]

Here's my take on this:

1) Damage
Wagons should take damage and have a number of hitpoints, but they should also have special resistances to various types of damage.  Even the best gith arrow shouldn't be able to do more than 4 hp worth of damage to a wagon, assuming it has around 150.  Bashing attacks should be considerably more damaging, all in all meaning that a raptor won't pose much of a threat to a wagon but that a magera could be a more complicated issue.  I also like them taking damage when riding out in the dunes, but a good sturdy wagon should be able to last a whole trip on nothing but sand.  It could cost a fortune to repair it afterwards, but I do think it makes sense.  Maybe an argosy would have more trouble doing that, which would make them harder to move...but I only suggest this tentatively because I can't imagine how it would realistically be like.
Falling wagons should take at least twice the falling damage a humanoid would take, just because riding off a cliff is such a dangerous and crazy thing.

2) Damage to passengers
Well, I don't think anyone inside a wagon should really take any damage if it was attacked.  Being on fire being a separate case, of course, but I'm sure there's some code that refers to that already.  If someone falls with a wagon then they should take falling damage and have a high chance of being hit by debris or whatever for extra damage.


3) Mounts
I think it should be possible to hitch different types of mounts as long as they are close in size.  An erdlu or a sunback could work with a kank, but not an inix.  An inix can work with kanks, and nothing can work with mekillots because they'd probably just step on them or eat them or something.
Some mounts could be more difficult to control, or maybe if they were aggressive creatures then maybe they could try to attack that approaching enemy and making them impossible to move until they calm down.  I can really see an erdlu doing that.

4) Trained mounts
I like this idea.  Riding mounts will tire a lot faster than wagon mounts when pulling wagons, and wagon mounts will tire insanely fast when running.

5) Wagon guards
I'd say a wagon would load one or two pre-defined guards whenever it was attacked.  Anything more than that would be overkill...or maybe this should be ditched completely in favor of the T'zai Byn and clan combat PCs.  If a wagon wants to be safe then the PC riding it should be safe.  Having a big argosy that have a two heavy-duty combat units guarding it at all times makes attacking wagons by regular people just as impossible.

[Fnord]

I'm going to just comment off San's ideas, caz she pretty much tackles what I perceive as the major issues.

Wagons should be damageable.  They would take damage from travelling over just about any sector other than road.  This makes the wagon repair skill useful.  Some wagons might have plating to make them take more damage.  I'll get to people-inflicted damage in a minute.

Sounds good. In addition to PCs using their wagon repair skill, I'd guess that a wagonyard should have NPCs capable of this.

Wagons should depend on mounts.  Mounts would tire as they pulled the wagon along and have to rest.  I'd think that on the trip from Allanak to Tuluk, one would have to stop 1? 2? 3? times, and that probably there would be places where wagons often sheltered.  For example, Luirs.  If others are necessary, we should probably have them spring up.

I'd say at least one rest. The idea of wagon shelter areas is interesting, as Luir's is the only generally accessable spot at present. Of course PCs will probably use these to rest themselves and their mounts, and should be charged if wagons are charged too.

Some mounts have more endurance than others; others are faster than others.  How else might they differ?

Toughness, if the mounts are attacked. Maybe endurance covers that, maybe not.

Should you be able to hitch disparate mounts?  I.e. an inix and a kank?  What about an inix and a mekillot?  That seems as though it shouldn't work.

I'd say no, because it sounds like more trouble than it's worth to code.

One thing the staff has talked about in the past is having "trained" mounts.  It would be easier, for example, to ride a mount that has been trained for riding; it might be easier to pilot a mount that has been trained for pulling wagons.

I think that's a great idea. An anology can be drawn between how tools help with certain crafts, and a trained mount would improve one's ride/wagoneering skill.

Attacking wagons: this is the biggie that (I think) everyone wants.  How to represent the virtual outriders or guards that a caravan might have?  You should be able to set wagons on fire or otherwise damage them.

How about if via ranks or something, certain people on the wagon can order the guards to leave/board, either individually, or as a group (flagged like wagon guard, or whatever). Maybe make the commands shoutable, so they can be done a room away? If they leave, and the wagon is attacked, they will, in effect, assist the wagon against attackers.

We have hit locations for the body, what about a wagon? Hull, wheels, mount, and boarding door stand out to me. Damaging the hull wouldn't do much until it broke. Damaging wheels or the mount would slow the wagon down. Damaging the boarding door until it broke could make the wagon enter'able?

My ideas are not necessarily great ones, but hopefully they help get the wagon expert's creative juices flowing.

[Seeker]

Sanvean,

I sent an e-mail several weeks ago with a few ideas.

Seeker

[sarahjc]

Wagons should be damageable.  They would take damage from travelling over just about any sector other than road.  This makes the wagon repair skill useful.  Some wagons might have plating to make them take more damage.  I'll get to people-inflicted damage in a minute.

Perhaps they should also take damage out of general usage, just not as great an amount. I trust that wagon wheels and roads aren't state of the art technology. Perhaps they take wear, and wheels could break just for being out and about a certain amount of time.  

Wagons should depend on mounts.  Mounts would tire as they pulled the wagon along and have to rest.  I'd think that on the trip from Allanak to Tuluk, one would have to stop 1? 2? 3? times, and that probably there would be places where wagons often sheltered.  For example, Luirs.  If others are necessary, we should probably have them spring up.

I like the concept of two stops, you don't want to make a caravan ride unbearable, just not easy.  Mounts should get tired and they should be able to be hitched and unhitched. I like the idea of being able to take out the individual wagon animals and the concept that a lame mount would slow the wagon.

Some mounts have more endurance than others; others are faster than others.  How else might they differ?

You could impliment that some might me more difficult to maneuver. It would be interesting if even though a Mek was faster, you would need a really experienced pilot to be able to control a couple to pull a wagon. As opposed to Inix, which could be easily controlled, but slower going.

Should you be able to hitch disparate mounts?  I.e. an inix and a kank?  What about an inix and a mekillot?  That seems as though it shouldn't work.

No, I think that the size and speed of different beasts would make for an ineffective and poorly balanced match up.

One thing the staff has talked about in the past is having "trained" mounts.  It would be easier, for example, to ride a mount that has been trained for riding; it might be easier to pilot a mount that has been trained for pulling wagons.

That sounds cool.

Attacking wagons: this is the biggie that (I think) everyone wants.  How to represent the virtual outriders or guards that a caravan might have?  You should be able to set wagons on fire or otherwise damage them.

For the attackee's

You might be able to have a guard wagon flag where the NPC's in the wagon attack from inside with arrows and things of that nature.  If you have Vnpc's I think this should be done with random room echoes and Imm intervention.  However staff should be prepared on how to handle this properly, not making the wagon siege too difficult or too easy.

Also flee wagon which could fail/not fail on your pilot skill, You might be able to kick the wagon into motion but in no controlled direction as an attack would put your mounts in a panic as is. That risks you falling off the shield wall in a state of panic, or directly into the rest of the wagon ambush waiting a tick away.  If it failed, the message would tell you that you can't seem to get control of the mounts.

As for the attackers,

Definitely allow single mount damage and wagon damage on important mobile parts such as wheels and the hitch. You can't move without wheels , you can't move without hitched animals and you can't move with dead animals. That said though, if you attack the Mek hitched to the wagon, expect that the mek will fight back.

As for getting on the wagon and getting inside, that should be imm intervention as well. Or perhaps allow for door damage.

There could always be a Ram objects introduced into the game, small and large.. That sure would make for some fun battles on and off wagons.  I am not keen on the bash door idea, cause then you will have all sorts of twinkish things like people bashing into apartments to steel things.  Where as with a ram, they make a bit more noise.  

What else should be included in this list of ideas?

That's all I have for now.. Except the ability to shoot flaming arrows.

[Sanvean]

Seeker, can you resend the mail?  I didn't get it.

[Canadian Beaver]

As a small aside, I idea'd this in game awhile back. When you see wagon tracks via the hunt skill they don't tell you what way the wagon was going, only the way it came or went through. A trained hunter should be able to tell what way the wagon went from the tracks left by the mounts pulling it.

[sarahjc]

I don't know about that, you have the mounts pulling... Which are several, and then you have the wheel marks riding over those.. I can imagine it being pretty hard to tell which way it  was comming or going, just that it came and went.

[Seeker]

I will resend the e-mail, and here are some ideas for movement.

Wagon ideas (1)

Movement and damage from terrain:

All sectors should have two characteristics attached to them for wagon movement.  One would be for resistance to wagon movement, and the other for damage to wagons passing through them.  Individual wagons would have the ratings Pull and Armor to match against the terrain characteristics.

Roadway:          resistance 1,   damage 1
Red Desert:       resistance 6,   damage 3
Plain:                  resistance 2    damage 2
Scrub:                resistance 4,   damage 4
Agafari Grove:  resistance 10, damage 8


Courier wagon      Pull 2,    Armor: 2       Total hits: 100     Speed  10
Transport wagon   Pull 6,    Armor: 3       Total hits: 300     Speed   6
Argosy                  Pull10   Armor:  6        Total hits: 1200   Speed   4

You do a check every time a wagon tries to LEAVE a terrain sector.  If ((wagon pull- terrain resistance + (piloting skill/30)) < 0, the room echoes that you are stuck.  This way, it IS possible to crash a wagon into a tree, or bog down in the desert if you screw up.

Speed is controlled by modifying the delay of the piloting skill in movement.  Delay = (standard delay + (10-wagon speed) + terrain resistance – (piloting skill of pilot/20)).

Damage to wagons traveling off-road is (terrain damage – wagon armor) which occurs to the wagon whenever the pilot fails a ((terrain resistance*10) – (piloting skill - 50)) skill check.  As a wagon takes damage from attack or from terrain damage, its Armor and its Speed Rating go down.

Therefore, in the examples, a courier wagon's mounts are simply not strong enough to drag it through the shifting sands and no pilot is good enough to get it unstuck by himself if he does turn wrong and sink in..  

The courier wagon going through the scrub is going to need a superb pilot to be able to make it through, and it is likely to get pretty beat up.

A transport wagon is slower everywhere, but able to creep through the desert by itself with the stronger mounts, but will can still get trapped if it runs into a thick grove.

An argosy creeps along with its unstoppable meks, but can pretty much blow right through a forest, although it is going to need some work afterwards.

As damage accrues the wagon's speed and its Armor will decrease.  Repair, and proper time and materials will restore these values.

Mounts can be assigned Pull values (which add together as mounts are hitched in parallel), and Speed values (which is always the slowest of any team of hitched animals).  In the example above my courier has four erdlu (Pull .5 animals with a Speed 10), my transport has four hitched inix (Pull 1.5, Speed 6), and my argosy has a pair of meks (Pull 5, Speed 4).  Trained animals have superior Pull and/or Speed to others of their kind.

Kill a mount, the vehicle becomes progressively less able to move.  You kill one of the inix on that Transport vehicle in the Red Desert, you have likely just entirely immobilized it.


Seeker

[Anonymous Raider]

What would be a nice idea for once you manage to kill most of the guards and get inside the wagon would be something like this:

Assign "endurance" points to certain type of doors, mainly the ones used in the wagons, and a "strenght" point as well.

Raider X manages to kill the guards and step into the wagon, only to find the door locked.

Raider X is a raider with "average" strenght, let say that equals to 15, and the baobab door standing between him is considered a "strong" door, with strenght points of 20.

Raider X uses the new command "Bash door east", and the code calculates that he has 15 strenght point vs 20 for the door.

So he gets a message that says, "The door is too solid for you to bash."

Raider Z comes in, he's a half-giant with very good strenght, which is something like 30 points.

He tries the same command, and the bashing of the door starts.

tic tic tic.. The baobab door has an endurance of 500, and the difference between the strenght of the door and the strenght of the half-giant is 10.

So for every ticks, the door will lose 10 endurance points until the door comes down to 0 or the half-giant is attacked by someone else. (Just like crafts, you can still emote and such in between tics)

Let's say that Raider X has a tool called "a bone ram", which would give him an extra 40 points of strenght when held, he could then start bashing the door with it.

Same goes if the half-giant uses the ram on top of his superior strenght, the door would go down even faster.

This seems like alot of complex coding, but remember that once the code is done, you wouldn't see any of this.

All you'd get is if either you are strong enough to bash in the door without a tool, and if so, it would be like combat, except it's you vs a door.

[Manhattan]

Why not just 'one' mount per wagon to avoid disparate animals?
But what about an argosy you say? Well...maybe the 'other' mounts could be virtual.

[Anonymous Raider]

One mount won't do, if you get attacked by raiders, and they attack your mounts first, so that you can't flee, at least if you manage to drive them away, you might have one or two mounts left to make it back to safety..

If it's just one mount, and they manage to kill it, then you and your wagon are stuck in the middle of nowhere.

And if mounts needs to be trained first by rangers, and the bigger the wagon, the more mounts it requires, then that's more jobs for us players.

I would also prefer if there is no "virtual" guards in wagons, this way it would make trips alot more "prepared in advance", as opposed to what we often have now, trips on a whim. This way, if you have a spy in a House, and the spy tells the raiders that such and such trip will happen in a few days, because the noble needs all of his guards to be around to protect the wagon, this offers alot more opportunities for the raiders and a reason again for guards to be guards, and not just PCs that are trained and fed for no reason.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Wagons should be damageable.  They would take damage from travelling over just about any sector other than road.  This makes the wagon repair skill useful.  Some wagons might have plating to make them take more damage.

Some terrain is also entirely unsuitable to heavy, large, wheeled apparatus.  There's a reason that tanks deployed to desert regions use treads.  Wheels are useless in loose sand, you might be better off putting the thing on skis.

Wagons should depend on mounts.  Mounts would tire as they pulled the wagon along and have to rest.  I'd think that on the trip from Allanak to Tuluk, one would have to stop 1? 2? 3? times, and that probably there would be places where wagons often sheltered.  For example, Luirs.  If others are necessary, we should probably have them spring up.

I'd suggest a one- or two- point rest.  More than that is a tad arduous.

Some mounts have more endurance than others; others are faster than others.  How else might they differ?

I liked Larrath's idea about excitable mounts.  Some mounts might be more difficult to control than others, but have more advantages across the board if your skill is high enough to handle them, perhaps?

Should you be able to hitch disparate mounts?  I.e. an inix and a kank?  What about an inix and a mekillot?  That seems as though it shouldn't work.

I'd suggest only allowing same-mount rigs for simplicity sake.

Attacking wagons: this is the biggie that (I think) everyone wants.  How to represent the virtual outriders or guards that a caravan might have?  You should be able to set wagons on fire or otherwise damage them.

Yeehaw cowboy.  First, virtual outrider/guard issue.  I'd suggest creating unit NPC objects - if a wagon has/needs them.  Or not.  I'm not a big fan of throwing virtual interaction in all over the place.  If you've got virtual outriders, you've also got virtual raiders and bandits.  These things have to be taken in balance.  I'd rather see the duty left as much up to PCs as possible, and only throw in the NPC guards if they're strictly necessary.

Second, actually damaging a wagon.  Clearly, some things are going to have a handier time than others.  I can see magicker direct-damage spells working wonders on wagons.  Blunt or chopping weapons would be more effective.  Fire arrows would be neat too - but should destroy the arrow object after a certain brief time period.  Another suggestion to complicate things - if a wagon reaches 0 hp, it is immobilized, but still intact until it is repaired.  If it is reduced to some negative percent of its original status, it is destroyed.  Fire damage should accumulate even after combat is over.

What else should be included in this list of ideas?

Directionality.  If you go north in a wagon, it should be easiest to continue going north.  If you go north, east or west would be a bit more difficult.  If you try to go south, it would be difficult or impossible.  To turn around, you should have to go n;e;s;w;s or something similar.

[anger man]

Some of these ideas could be implemented separate of the wagon code, and isn't really necessary to getting (higher-priority) realistic wagons in the game. Some thoughts on these ideas (and how problematic they can become):

Fire code: I think this could be cool, especially if it spreads. Maybe a fire starts by blocking one exit. Depending on its intensity, it could randomly choose to 'block' another exit in the room, or spread to another room in a direction that it's already blocking. Problem: This will be as tough to tweak as the weather code, if not more delicate because it can directly kill PCs and also: different rooms would have different amounts of 'fuel'

Door bashing code: this has been suggested several times in other threads, and generally shot down. If you implement it for wagons, you should implement it for other doors in the game. Problems: Every door in the game will have to be adjusted. And, right now, if you're being naughty, it's only when you run into soldiers that you're caught, not while you're bashing a door or fighting (balance issue). A possible solution for this is to have soldiers within ~10 rooms walk directly towards the room that you got wanted in. That way, there's still a chance to 'escape' and wait out the soldiers, but you'd better not linger.

I guess my point is, while these ideas are cool, it's easy to see how they can snowball and touch on unexpected aspects like crim code - and wagons are the priority.

My idea for wagons:

Make them take the stun damage that a blow would deal, not the HP damage.

[House Rising Sun]

Moving a mount or a wagon shouldn't be the same as walking on foot, I think. In addition to being able to pilot in a cardinal direction, a moving 'toggle' would be helpful, especially for some of the things I'll mention in a minute. Having it on will give the mounts pulling it a constant  but slow stamina drain and less drain when changing locations. It doesn't stop rolling every league and decide where to go next; it keeps on going. This could mean circling for war chariots, or just taking it slow and easy without actually stopping (since it'll strain the team to start again) for the trade argosy.

By the way, many of these wagons are huge and heavy. HUGE and heavy. Even the courier wagons seem about the size of a large old-fashioned earth wagon. So thinking too much about the mechanics of motion is going to be a bitch. In the picture I've seen, the wheels look like giant stone cylinders on trees. HUGE. And considering the length of many multi-roomed wagons, they're probably not going to have just four wheels.

With that much surface contact and weight, I don't think any animal that could make them move is going to have much problem getting the wheels to grab sand and roll under it all, even if it is slow going with frequent stops.

Also, there's very little that a weapon is going to do to the thing. You can chop at the wall all you like. Aim for the wheels if you feel like being crushed.  Arrows are just going to stick in the side for a while, unless you're lucky enough to hit a defending archer through the slots. The only ways to really stop or cripple a wagon are to kill the mounts, kill the driver, or damage the steering apparatus. All three are going to be difficult if the wagon is in any way protected, and I think any attacking scripts or systems added to wagons should reflect this. Ranged attacks on the object itself might have arguments to pick a target if you're in the same room, like forage does, while melee fighting has to go through a number of stages based on the type of wagon before anyone not associated (by clan?) to the wagon owner can board while the defenses are up. Shooting from a room away would probably just target the wagon, and randomly hit whatever parts apply, most likely the wagon itself.

Going on the dark sun picture again, most wagons owned by an organization will have the mentioned outriders and guards, in sort of a one-wagon parade. To show this, each wagon 'object' could have a type denoting its size and purpose, like naval ship classes. Attacking or defending in each class would be a different animal, giving raiders or clan enemies something to think about when planning an attack, other than which helm to wear. The sloops, with a large enough team, simply bolt away, breaking through raiders on foot and hoping no one is fast enough to jump on board, while the "wagons of the line" can only trudge onward and hope their firing positions and virtual riders are enough to hold things back.

CHARIOTS: Are these mounts now, or still wagons? With the new ability to shoot out, I would love to see those great one-room chariot wagons that are little more than a platform on wheels. Attacking one from a range should be much easier than with a melee weapon if it's moving (see above) and anyone that tries to get close enough to board or pull a morpheus while it is moving has a better chance of being run over or cut in half than succeeding. Being small, light, and fast, they'll probably break with extended use on rough terrain.

SMALL WAGONS: something big enough to walk in, but little more than a storage room and a piloting room. If anybody is protecting it, it should probably be a pc. Harder to disable by shooting, because it's enclosed, but likely easier to board if you're a fast enough runner?

MEDIUM to LARGE WAGONS: Rated the same, because they'd have the same type of defenses, only to different scales. Logic follows that the bigger and slower it is, the more men it will have protecting the loot. Your group might be skilled enough to stop it by taking out the critical movement components from a distance (not at all easy - they'll be firing back and running you down). Even then, you have to fight your way through whatever scripts are stacked up to break down the defenses and board it, and then once you're boarded you have to deal with the pcs and npcs inside.  Nothing short of an army would have a chance at taking on a fully staffed, defended, moving war argosy without some really keen coordination.

Is this worth fleshing out further? It's a mishmash of wagon ideas that were inserted here and moved there in a vain attempt to keep some sort of structure, but I think I got the point out. This kind of potential for change deserves more than one-liner posts anyway.

[Sakra]

Don't forget weight limits to your wagons. If you take too many kanks inside, KRACK and you've just lost an axle.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I'd like to see.

Code Select Expand


<prompt> use oil arrow
You dip an arrow in a can of oil.

<prompt> ep arrow
You brandish the arrow.

<prompt> light arrow
You set fire to the arrow.
Ok.

<prompt> shoot arrow wagon
Ok.
You fire off a lit arrow into wagon's sdesc.
A wagon catches on fire

<prompt>slay all
Ok.



Ah.. well you get the point, that'd be cool if you could make fire arrows, catch wagons, tents, things on fire Shoot someone with a fire arrow.. a little bit more damage, plus burning the place it hit them -shrugs- Though the fire on the wagon would start small and get bigger with each arrow or each tic unless someone -pour water fire- or something such as that..

But right now as I see it, you can load up in a wagon with water/food and go as far as the terrain will take you..

[Malifaxis]

Some ideas on the subject of mounts themselves:

Have different mounts have different panic levels.  If the training idea is implemented, you could also have 'training' affect this by pushing up the 'panic' level.  If your erdlu drawn chariot is attacked by a couple guys, those erdlus are most likely going to freak out pretty quickly... they're skittish by nature.  A panic'd mount would have a possibillity of randomly dragging the wagon in a random direction, but would also have the possibility of realizing it is about to leap off of a cliff and turn (perhaps some sort of an int check, or maybe no check at all... panic'd beasts of burden are notoriously blockheaded.)  What could panic a mount/team?  Damage in excess of, lets say, for an average team, 1/10th of the total HP of the wagon (unless the mounts are actually seperate, then have the panic response happen to the mounts)

Different mounts should also have different anger levels.  Mekillots are notorious for devouring handlers... honestly, I'd love to see something like this implemented.   Not any sort of an 'autochomp' code, but say a handler is near (in the same room) as a relatively untrained mek team.  The meks would have a chance, once every, lets say, 2 game hours, or randomly deciding to eat someone nearby.  The mek then would make an 'anger' check against the opposing person's 'ride' or 'pilot' skill, if the PC had both, give them a bonus, because they're that much better with animals.  Rangers and merchants, naturally, should get an even larger bonus to not get bitten.  IF all of the saves fail, yup, that mek is gonna try to take a chomp out of your hide.

Code for cutting the mounts free would be INCREDIBLY awesome.

Some sort of a 'whipping' code would be terrific as well.  Wagon not moving fast enough for your liking, Mr. Merchant?  Use whip mounts.  Naturally only some whips would be long enough to be used for this.  You'd have to have some sort of insane whip for a mek, but hey, Zalanthans are very resourceful.  If the staff decides to go with Seeker's ideas (which, by the way, I think are fucking bomb... kudos to you, dude), then a successful whip check could up the speed and pull of some mounts, while also severely tiring them and doing additional damage

Some sort of a crazed frenzy could even result from too much whipping, where the beasts would take off at a mad sprint in the direction last ordered, until they ran out of stamina.

If panic and frenzy ideas are chosen, it might also be good to add some code where people on those damn 'platforms' can be thrown the hell out of the wagon by a severe jolt.  Hell, even going through the tablelands or something, that'd be pretty realistic.  And just imagine the amusing shouts as your Sargeant goes tumbling head over heels off the wagon end.

That's all I can think of for now...

-Malifaxis, who just finished playing a nice, long game of Circus Imperium before reading this thread, and giggling a lot.

[Jorlain]

This is my take on the situation. Sorry if I repeat anything, as I only read a few of the previous reply posts.

Arrows: What kind of material are we talking about here? If it's made out of wood, then obviously arrows aren't going to be a problem. How often have to seen a bunch of arrows break wood? Especially if it's been plated, the arrows would more than likely just break, unless it was a dead-on shot, or the bow was severely high powered.

Fire: Fire should be a likely candidate for disaster. How? Well, how about making up some spiffy arrows that have flamable heads? Or hell, maybe even throwing torches and lanterns and shit on/in it. After a while, maybe add coded heat damage. Smoke doing stun damage. Smoke also coded to obscure room/rooms, maybe similar to the storm code.

Following: This is something that's bothered me in the past. I may be wrong, but every time I've tried to follow a wagon, it's a no go. If you're guarding/escorting a wagon/argosy, it make sense to me that you should just be able to follow it, instead of having to keep up.

Individual Wagon Components: Another way to tinker with the wagon repair skills. Maybe you busted a wheel by hitting a rock, or maybe the tongue got busted up when the stupid wagon mounts got all spooked/pissed off during a raider attack. You probably get the point.

Anyways, that's all I've got at the moment.

[Seeker]

Wagon Notes:

Disabling/damaging Wagons (2)

Sand vessels themselves are damn difficult to harm.  A few are specifically designed to be rolling fortresses with defense crews, spikey sides and even standard seige defense designs.

Although it should not be -impossible- to harm a vessel with melee weapons, I would say it is pretty much a futile effort for PCs unless we are talking about a small sand-schooner wagon and you have a -big- detatchment of soldiers. Arrows won't do it.  Flaming arrows won't do it because even in Zalanthas the wood has been treated to be flame resistant.  Maybe for the first hundred years they weren't, but after that, and a few smoking wrecks, people sort of caught on.  The great argosies aren't made of straw anymore.

Wheels are not usually exposed, and are not like the spoked-conestoga wheels that so many people seem to have in mind.  They are a comparatively vulnerable point, but, of course, that is why the designers of the vessels have usually gone to such great lengths to not expose them.

Wagon states:

Wagons should have a "ready <wagon>" command and a "berth <wagon>" command that functions as a toggle.  When a wagon is "readied" its NPC guard compliment (if it has one) is activated, the wagon is able to hitch its mounts (if hitching is used), and movement is permitted.  "Berth wagon" will deactivate the NPC defenders, allow all mounts to be unhitched, and deactivates movement.  When a wagon is "readied" only authorized PCs can enter it without getting the smack down.  "Berthed" wagons can be boarded at leisuze by harvesting crews, nosey strangers, or even NPC critters just as is normal now.  You don't want to take on a readied wagon if it is described as having a military compliment.  If you attack or attempt to forceably board a readied wagon, you will activate the vessel's defenders script. Depending on how military the vessel is in nature, and how large, it can be some serious defense.


Ways to harm or force entrance:

Beat on the damn thing all you want.  Unless you have specific tools designed for the task, they will likely be mostly ineffective, and will activate any defense the readied vehicle might have.  Specific tools that might be effective?  I would probably let some of these same tools be used for those pesky doors, with maybe a battering ram added in.

Lumber axe:  Use axe wagon.
Bottle of thick oil:  Use oil wagon
Splitting wedge: Use wedge wagon
pry bar: use pry wagon
etc.

These tools could be effective vs. wagon doors (if you manage to get inside to the rooms that have the doors, because, unlike in a city, you don't care if you make a bunch of noise.  No neighbors are gonna be peeking out of their keyholes ready to Way for the militia, so you can make the use of these tools crimcode offenses.

Magic used to damage a wagon? Oh, yeah.  Magic can do anything. That would probably be the way to damage the thing itself.  But hurting the vehicle is probably not the goal.  More likely, the goal is to get the wagon stopped, and get inside.


Ways to immobilize a wagon:

Barricade
Assault the vessel
Neutralize the pilot
Kill the mounts
Sever the reigns.

Barricade:  There was a discussion about barricades.  I still like that idea.  Craft log log log hostileintentions into a sturdy barricade.  Drop sturdy.

"A sturdy barricade has been erected here effectively blocking wagon progess through this area."
(barricade object - adds +5 to terrain resistance of the room.)

Neutralize the pilot:  The pilot has got to be able to see out of the vessel.  He should be vulnerable to arrow fire when driving.  If a PC is using the Piloting skill he can be targetted.  Maybe with some defensive bonus for partial cover, but if he can see, an missile can reach him.  Even if a raider can't hit him easily, you can force the pilot away from the controls if he has some sense of self-preservation.

Kill the mounts:  If mounts are hitched, codedly, to the vessel, then they could be whacked, and the vehicle can be imobilized that way.

Sever the controls:  I like the "cut reigns" command.  Again, with the use of the sneak command, effectively, this could disconnect the mounts from the pilot's controls without facing a barriage of defense from the wagon if you were successfully unseen.  It shouldn't be easy, but I like the idea.  It wouldn't have to turn the mounts into free NPCs, but it would force the wagon to "berth", and then "ready" again before it could move.

Just a few more thoughts, and all from my own perspective.

Seeker