Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.

[Krath]

I am personally amused that we have players that are OOCly offended by the combination of ruthless sexuality and manipulation in Zalanthas, yet are perfectly happy with wanton violence or corruption.

The typical person in either citystate has -none- of the sexual mores that exist in Western society.  Male or female concubines and consorts are looked -up- to, not down upon.  Take a look at the social documentation ( http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html ), people. It is clearly laid out for you.  A PC might have IC jealousy because their character wanted the prestige that Lord Fluffybottom's concubine got instead, but the vast majority of characters will only envy their luck and/or manipulative skill in gaining such a position.

Quickstart is accepted as part of the official documentation.  It was compiled by Sanvean, based on a concept by a player (Shaleah).   It has been said a thousand times and will likely be said a thousand more without changing a thing - but forget your modern day values.  They have no relevance here.

I have no doubt that many people will find reasons for their PCs to continue to have nothing but scorn for any female PC that doesn't have visible warts, massive muscles and an offensive odor.  But those people should be aware that it is their own prejudice kicking in and has nothing to do with the reality of Zalanthas.

*MUTTER* You beat me to it again...RM, you are right, but not in this case. If you read
the Documents and retained the information, which Hicksville Hoochie posted on
page 1, you would understand your views are wrong in this case.  

The Mistress above has pretty much said what I wanted to.

[Pantoufle]

And when people who play these stereotypes stop playing them, I believe we will see more people treating the genders as equals. My observation tells me otherwise. That some female PCs DO sleep their way to the top, and that some male PCs ARE too stupid to realize they're being manipulated.

If it's intentional, great! And just as great - is when people respond to it accordingly. Because - female PCs should NOT be using "weakness" and "delicacy" and "need for nurture and protection" as a means to become influential, since the docs state very clearly that women in Zalanthas AREN'T weak, delicate, and needing nurture and protection.

A female who behaves like this SHOULD expect to be criticized.

Well said.

[flurry]

1) The quickstart is a *player-submitted* guide

Why not call it an 'Imm-approved' guide instead of using precise wording to cast dispersions on a guide that has some specific sections you happen to not like?

I highly doubt that Sanvean/Nessalin, etc. would publish a guide with errors in it.

Not only that, as I recall the Imms invited player input from the GDB about the quickstart doc, and it was revised based on that additional input.

[Intrepid]

So you guys can believe in magick and nonhuman races and mutations
that result in wings, but not in a possible mutation that might make a
pc more attractive rather than less?

Pathetic.

[Pantoufle]

So you guys can believe in magick and nonhuman races and mutations
that result in wings, but not in a possible mutation that might make a
pc more attractive rather than less?

Pathetic.

I don't think anyone said that.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

First of all, I'd like to say (and I hope the Imms don't take this personally, it's not a very important point anyway) that I disagree with them about the sexes being physically equal on Zalanthas.  Now, I understand it's their game and I'm willing to play along, but if we're going to have a discussion about it I'm going to give my true opinion.  Humans being stronger, more resistant to heat and pain, and generally tougher (like Zalanthans are) makes sense to me.  I could see that happening, but in all cases women will necessarily be slower and less balanced (probably also weaker, although I'm not sure) than their male counterparts.  The ability to give birth requires some compromises to the physically ideal (i.e. male) frame, and that's not going away regardless of what the imms say.

At least half the differences between males and females in the real world, I think, are due to different socialization, which would obviously be changed in Zalanthas, so that would reduce the differences between males and females somewhat.  And that's not to say that -some- women wouldn't be amazingly strong, agile, etc..  but just not as a group.

But the really important thing I want to say is: even if there are physical differences between men and women, there's still no excuse for having a double-standard when it comes to sexuality and when it comes to holding positions of power!

I know it's hard, but people should try to train themselves to view women liking sex as normal and okay, especially in Zalanthas, a society with no puritan roots.

And the next time a sexy female PC rises to a position of power, and receives all kinds of insults behind her back at her having "slept to the top", if you're one of the insulters, ask yourself this: Is it the sex you object to, or is it that she's in a position of power?  I think the latter.  I think men have a problem with women having power, especially if the power was gained in a "feminine" way, through manipulation using her sexuality.  I don't think Zalanthans would have a problem with "feminine" power.  Power is power.

So, sleep your way to the top!  But, remember it's lonely at the top.  You might have to sleep around some more once you get there.

[Cuusardo]

The point of this thread is that many people are taking a sexist, Judaeo-Christian double standard of the real world and putting them into a society in which it does not belong.  Female PCs are being looked down upon for having sex, and males are not.

[Intrepid]

I don't think anyone said that.

Ok, just to be fair, maybe I misinterpreted.  I don't believe I did, but it
is possible.

Currently, I am playing a pc who would be mistaken for a F-me pc by
desc, but only due to a mutation that runs in her family; the females
of which happen to have been prostitutes.  She also exhibits other
odd features to her mutation, but I won't get into that.  She never has
sex and generally isn't interested in it, but I've already seen odd
reactions based solely on her appearance.  And yes, I anticipated this
when I made her.  Regardless of how several posters have tried to
rationalize it, we have Puritans rping with us in a world where they
never existed.

Sexual politics is politics, and our Puritan players do not need to like
that for it to be true.  I notice that most of the dislike for F-me pcs who
sleep their way to the top is overt.  Like the pc can't stop themselves
from just blurting out things to a F-me pc who already proved herself
sly enough and potentially dangerous enough to rise to the top.  And no,
I've never played a F-me pc.  I just see quite a bit from my the pcs I've
played.  I don't think most of this F-me pc rage is as ic as the players
advocating it would like to rationalize.  I think there is a lot of ooc
contempting occurring here behind a flimsy veil of half-rp.  But then,
I could be wrong.  I doubt it though.

Politics, backstabbing, seduction, betrayal...all are part of Machiavellian
intrigue.  Allanak and Tuluk may be low tech, but their cultures are as
advanced and involved as feudal Japan, imo.  Many players just refuse
to embrace the complexity.

[Comrade Canadia]

People are missing my point here... well, some of them.  What I'm harping on is not that people get mad at others who actually do sleep their way to the top.  Hell, if that happens - sure!  Jealousy and whatnot can abide.

My gripe here is the double standard in gender.  Men are not attacked for it while women are.  Yes, the genders are different in arm, NO Bestatte, they are not equal, we just pretend they are.  Behaviour like this is what stops them from being equal.  Bitching about f-me PCs also reinforces my point here.  Yes, they don't jive with the game world... but you know, this is an application only mud.  They're bad... but they're not THAT bad.

Porcelain skinned princesses with gigantic breasts and a flirtatious attitude ARE bad character concepts.  Are they the ABSOLUTE WORST?  No, but they sure as hell get that treatment.  It's like how misandrony is so much worse than misogyny.  An abusive husband isn't nearly as demonised as a feminist.  Hell, the fact that people are using this thread as an excuse to complain about f-me PCs is... well, kind of funny, considering that the point of this thread is to get people to correct that sort of behaviour.  

Claiming that gender stereotypes are the reason people have sexist attitudes is a complete fallacy.  'If she wasn't such a slut, I wouldn't treat her so badly!'  Come on.  This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.  Are f-me PCs a breach of the game world?  Of COURSE.  Anyone who attacks me after this post claiming I love f-me PCs is going to get hysterical laughter as their response.  

However, I think we level an unreasonable amount of hate on them because of our conceptions of how much sex men and women should have.  

ALSO.  The 'harshness' of the game world isn't all encompassing.  Gender equality doesn't fucking compromise armag's harshness.  God I'm learning to loathe that word.  Just because something presents further conflict or difficulty in game doesn't necessarily mean it's good.  Sexism might be harsh, but from what I've gathered, it's the sort of harsh that we're supposed to work on getting rid of.

Is this a futile quest of mine?  I think partially, but if at least ONE person reads this thread, and thinks 'Hey, when I was mad at that woman, I called her a slut and started spreading nasty rumours about her sleeping with everybody... those rumours shouldn't be taken as nasty!  I'VE BEEN NAUGHTY!' then my work here is done.

-Dave

[Intrepid]

I would agree that there is a double standard, yes.  I think most pcs,
who see people die horribly every day in an arena for sport of all
things, should not be phased in the slightest if someone is in danger
of propogating the species further.  "If they can support that many
children, breed away!"

That said, it has much to do with the aforementioned Puritans we
have playing with us that there is this double-standard in sex, because
it does not exist in Zalanthian society; it only exists on Earth.

Lastly, I am quite aware of what this thread is about; I simply chose to
respond to someone who had veered off course.

[Ayashah]

Examples include Lady Templar Dora Tor, Druel (was that her name? It's been a while.  Some 'Naki soldier chick at any rate), and Basya of House Kurac.

It was Druell and thank you, because she definitely didnt sleep her way to the power she had. *grins*

Cap'n, I can wholy admit I have had those same 'thoughts' about F-me PCs. Shoot, my PCs at times have been thought to be F-Me PCs and upon posting in the clans' board about playing times get PMs of relief that there was a good player behind that f-me look. I also, thanks to some IMM guidance with one PC, turned my thinking around because I was letting RL seep into the game.

As for the weaker sex theory, ARM is not Earth. There are sexual differences between the sexes but muscularity, ability to fight, etc being the playing field of males first then females as a far second doesnt hold on ARM. The Humans of ARM arent the Humans of Earth. It would probably be easier to grasp if the race wasnt called 'Human" then no one would comare RL sex differences to ARM genders. Some females will be weak, some will be strong, some will be juuussssssst right. Some males will be weak, some strong and some just right. The norm is the middle where most would be. The muscle-bound male is an abnormalty just as the weak, pale-skinned maiden (loath that word IG) is an abnormalty.

These unrealistic biases wont go away. Why? Because new players will join and have to learn to let go of their biases and old players that hold the bias, wont be able to let go. What Cap'n did though was make you all think about it.

[Sanvean]

The Quickstart is published on the website and is official documentation.

People imposing ideas from their own backgrounds happens frequently in the game.  This does not make it right, unfortunately.  Examples of incorrect play:
*Automatically assuming that monogamous, heterosexual pairings are the only "correct" way for your character to have relationships.
*Automatically assuming that your character worships some sort of Higher Power.
*Automatically assuming that a female PC that has sex is a whore, while a male PC is a stud. (This assumption comes from both male and female players; I've seen some of the strongest examples of it from female players.)

Arguing that however someone roleplays is "correct" and it's just the way they choose to run their character is, unfortunately, the same rationale people use for running racial characters that go outside the guidelines for their race, such as clever half-giants, riding elves, and friendly halflings.  This leads to new players getting the wrong idea, and reinforcing other incorrect roleplay.  I understand what you're getting at, but (to my mind) if you're running a character that directly contradicts the documentation, it should be treated like a special character and approved (or not) by the staff, because it ends up damaging the game-world overall.

The purpose of the game is roleplay and stretching the imagination.  I'm not sure how people can argue that they can run an elf realistically but they can't run a female that doesn't match RL norms.

I'm in agreement with Comrade Canadia here, because this bugs me as well, but I suspect it will continue as an ongoing debate.  Which is good, because that way people think about it, at least.

[sarahjc]

My opinions on this..

First by your PC thinking and assuming that females are inferior in -any- form you are bringing outside views into the game world. This may not be wrong for a certain PC or if your PC just has reasons to think such, but for the average joe.. It's wrong, If you need more help understanding this... Well let me give a try.

All PC's male and female are "coded the same" The are -coded- just as strong, just as tall, just as fast, just as smart. The "skin" that you put on them is the only difference.  So Oocly "CODEWISE"  they are the same. IC'ly the "DOCUMENTATION" tells you they are the same, so my question to you is, what don't you understand?? I understand it is difficult to think that little miss bounce bottom bynner can kick your ass six different ways, cause she is so curvy and slender and you are so burly and strong. But she can, and your PC should know that she can. Does it defy physics? Maybe.. Is this a fantasy game?? Yes. I mean I also find it weird that most of the men I meet have some kind of chiseled features and ripping muscles.

Basically it would be like me calling your PC a Homo at the bar in front of a crowd of your closest friends. The IC thing for you to do would be to give me a dumb look and a shrug.  The wrong response would be for you to give me a shove and say something like, "You’re a Fag! Not me!" Cause on the world of Zalanthas. Gay people also have no stigma.

Now on to the F-me thing and how women are perceived. I say, it's all fair game. I have only once witnessed blatant prejudice against a woman from a man in game for sexually promiscuity. I have also seen an IG post about it, however the post interestingly enough was about the said woman bedding down with an elf.  So I thought it was neither here nor there.

But I will tell you what I did think,  that the guy telling me at the bar was a closed minded redneck and a poor RP'er, I just gave him a look of.." What's your point?"  And who really cares if you sleep your way to the top, I'm sure that guy is fine as long as he gets a ride on the way there..

What I see most of is not the men singling out the woman PC's for swaying hips and lushes lips,  it's the other women singling them out. It's Ms. hard as nails, battle scared warrior that looks at the new F-me woman with disdain and a scoffs.  And that too doesn't help.  I mean unless your PC is less than confident and is the Katty type, then you shouldn't even be flinching or caring. You use your brawn to struggle your way up, they may -or- may not use something else. Remember.. Men -do- the same, and I can think of a few that do it consistently and effectively

Also, one more point on this is to keep it in game, and what I mean by that is, that if you feel that your PC has suffered an injustice of some kind, remember that it may very well just be an IC one. And normally it is. We have these posts that come up here all the time.  Why do women have it easier? Why do women always play F-me's. Why do men bitch about F-me's??  Why do men constantly think that we are not equal? It can all be solved in game, and if you feel that you see a player acting completely inappropriate, send a note to the mud. Maybe they can talk to the player, maybe what you think is OOC influence is right in line with PC.

And please, stop with the judging.. I have had a good amount of PC's that have used sexuality to their advantage, and I have had PC's used by it. This game is all about deceit, betrayal. Nothing does that better then deciteful shallow relationships.

So in closing, ladies.. don't be so Catty. Fellas, for fuck sake would you let go of my hand...

The End.

[jhunter]

The muscle-bound male is an abnormalty just as the weak, pale-skinned maiden (loath that word IG) is an abnormalty.

Actually this statement can't be true.

Not until we know if (in comparison to earth humans) Zalanthan females have a higher testosterone level -or- Zalanthan males have a lower level.

One or the other would have to be the case for them to be equals as far as physical strength and build are concerned.

Which case is it?

[WoHop]

Not until we know if (in comparison to earth humans) Zalanthan females have a higher testosterone level -or- Zalanthan males have a lower level.

One or the other would have to be the case for them to be equals as far as physical strength and build are concerned.

Which case is it?

Thing is Jhunter, it's fantasy land.. Testisterone does not have to have a factor in it at all. Zalanthans don't even know what Testosterone is. In fact I could be the feeble, stooped old man and have the skilz of Yoda.

It's just how things are. You really need to just deal with it.

[SRB]

Personally I think the entire concept is OOC in nature, yet it will likely not change due to the fact that people are set in their ways. So be it.

I try to play my pc's differently. For some, a whore female pc is disgusting. For others, it's a major turn on, and they want to test that package out asap.

Freedom of character is a great thing. Don't automatically assume a stigma is present if your pc is called a whore. Just some thoughts.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

The muscle-bound male is an abnormalty just as the weak, pale-skinned maiden (loath that word IG) is an abnormalty.

Actually this statement can't be true.  

Actually, have you ever paid attention to the maximum weight allowed for himans?

I believe the maximum is 8 ten-stones, right? A stone roughly translates to one kilo, which is 2.2lbs.

8x2.2 = 17.6... 17.6x10 = 176 pounds...

Or it could be nine, I can't exactly remember, but under math that still comes out to be only - 198lbs

Now some of these Ahnold descriptions in game actual should have a hard time living up to their buff and chisled appearances, if the commonly heaviest humans in game are roughly the weight of an average cruiserweight wrestler.

Also take into account the subject of fatty PCs. It's pretty obvious a heavy-set PC is well fed - but you also would think a super-buff one would be too, after all, the hard work to create those muscles has to be supported by some kind of nutrition.

So in closing, yes, a Conan the barbarian IMO, and code-wise, is just as rare as a pale skinned southern gal with a chest that would knock a door over if you tugged her bodice away while she was standing close.

--------------------

And to add to the discussion, I am in full agreeance with Comrade's post.

I've played a PC who was very promiscuous, and didn't care to hide the fact that she loved working up a sweat beneath whoever was clean and willing. She was actually quite proud of the fact that she had such a great sex life. She wasn't a pale-skinned f-me at all, was described as pretty, yes, but hardly gameworld-shattering.

Though she really couldn't fathom at all why people considered her such a bad thing because she led a great sex life, especially when the men were all high-fiving and playing the macho stud. Where was her love, where was her high-fives?  :cry:  lol.

And while ICly, she just shrugged it off and figured those talking trash were either kanking an elf, or nothing at all, and obviously needed to loosen up some, I oocly kept scoffing at how - out of place it seemed with what I've always read and seen on the site and forums.

No matter how many people say 'but it's in my character', Comrade has a -very- valid point with his post; because in the same experience I had, I would also notice board rumors speaking of the vnpc populace sharing the same feelings, and when it goes that far, as to say something that -shouldn't- be the thought of the common populace IS the common thought, it's more than just, in the certain character.

[proxie]

I admit it... I refuse to cross the gender barrier. I'm happy playing chicks.

I've played pc's that as a rule, are attractive to look at. Sue me. But, I've tried to keep it specific to the role. The pale skinned ranger with perfect hair just doesn't fly. Now, the lightly tanned merchant with a nice amount of scars on hands and arms from hours of working on making goods and getting sliced up by failures? A little more realistic. My combat orientated chickies are usually practical in their looks, a few well placed scars, toned figures, no sweeping long hairstyles, maybe a tied up braid or bun that can be let down for roleplay's sake if I'm really in love with the idea of this chick having hair.

One thing some of my pc's have in common is that sex is the second form of currency next to 'sid.  Why wouldn't it be? It's kindof universal, almost everybody gets randy, and not everybody has the 'sid to make their ends meet.  I've not had the guts to play an out and out, coins for a tumble whore, but if it happens, my pc's let it happen and use it to their best advantage.  Does that make me a f-me? Well, if so, bummer. I play ARM for my own enjoyment, to get mixed up in plots and fun and interesting events, not for the approval of a bunch of armchair rp policemen.

Why the feck does anyone care who my girl tumbles? Aren't there real concerns to worry about... like food and water and having enough spice to forget that it's been sandstorming for the 143th day in a row and you can't go out and hunt and your kids are screaming at you cause the little wretches are hungry and your mate you think ran off to Luirs?

The thing that REALLY irritates me is when a pc screws mine and automatically assumes some amount of possession thereafter. Sure! Invite me to live with you. Give me a key. If I'm not playing a nice pc at the moment, you may find yourself attending all night parties to rival a Fale's, with the templars busting in to shut them down, not to mention I'll sell the place of piece by piece to feed my spice habit... It's sex. If your pc met mine a few weeks/days ago, take it for a romp and let it be for crying out loud.

I've always had the impression that a person takes as many bedmates as they want. Perhaps only one, the strongest/cleverest of the bunch, will be the mother/father to offspring, but there's no reason why a person shouldn't dally.  If people are coming down on pc's with this idea. Why? Are they worried if one pc has more than one mate, there won't be any others for them? (Actually, that's a legitimate ic point that could be handled.)  Is it envy? Deal with it IC and check the western civ at the door.


--- proxie

[Bestatte]

It also goes with what a Zalanthan might consider attractive. Pale, I was informed after creating my first character, would be considered UNattractive to the average commoner. It's a sign of weakness, someone who can't withstand the world outside of buildings, some sort of sickness. Curves would normally be reserved only for those who can afford to eat regularly, be they successful hunters, merchant family members, nobles, etc. The average city-born and city-bred commoner struggles, and isn't likely to have f-me rounded swishy hips or bodacious tatas. Then you get the ones who have 5 kids and their tits are still perky - in a world where breast pumps don't exist, and neither does baby formula.

I am still of the firm belief that it's the players of SOME of these characters who propagate the stereotype, and play what THEY feel is the "ultimate fantasy woman" in a world where the ultimate fantasy woman is - none of the above. And then they get all upset when people criticize their characters' behaviors ICly - and don't think it's "fair" that our characters make fun of them. Or the men who pick them over the skinny dark-skinned chicks who are obviously NORMAL.

[jhunter]

Thing is Jhunter, it's fantasy land.. Testisterone does not have to have a factor in it at all. Zalanthans don't even know what Testosterone is. In fact I could be the feeble, stooped old man and have the skilz of Yoda.

It's just how things are. You really need to just deal with it.

Your -completely- missing my point.

If you don't understand what I'm asking, which is a perfectly reasonable question then don't waste my time responding. Thank you.

[jhunter]

Or it could be nine, I can't exactly remember, but under math that still comes out to be only - 198lbs

A nearly two hundred pound person with low body fat can be very muscular.
 I don't believe that you are understanding my point either.

A buff, really muscular man on Zalanthas...is just that...buff and really muscular for a man on Zalanthas.

The same as a slim pale-skinned woman on Zalanthas is that way when compared to other Zalanthan women.

You guys understand what I'm saying now?

[sarahjc]

I sudo agree with Comrade Canadia to an extent. Why doesn' t the sexy, pampered, voluptuous woman not fit in with Zalanthas?? Are you saying that nobles don't lead a pampered life, that some bards don't? That a woman that knows she is attractive and not very good with a sword wouldn't find some other way to live a comfortable lifestyle. That Zalanthas is without pretty people?? Do you honestly think that all of Zalathans are warriors and hunters when the majority of the population never leave the cities? I know the men do, but that's just not true.  :wink:

People are always so quick to judge that someone else does not play the right kind of PC. I love the women in this game that are so quick to jump on the F-me girls saying that they prevent the game from being "realistic" and cause stigmatism's to be formed. When you are the ones pointing the fingers and making the remarks, causing the snipes. And I won't stop placing the blame there.  If you are playing that round hipped, pert chested woman you had better understand that other women will be envious and hate you for it. That  happens in real life too.. It's called Jealousy. Don't take it personal.  How those women make it known to you is something else however. And how men make envy known as well..

In our world men.. they don't attack each others character. The word whore for a man holds no pain. However, the word whore, for a woman holds a stigma..  Making things worse,  men challenge men by calling them things like "pussy, or Bitch" calling them less then men, calling them things that reference a woman, meaning that they are weak. A woman's insult is worse, cause it's bad enough that we are women. So we take it lower and use words like  whore, or slut. And when a man is slighted by a woman, he falls on familiar ground using the same words because in our society, a woman's worth is still somewhat bases on her virtue. Sad, but true.

But none of the words above really fit Zalanthas. None of them jive with the game world. Yet we all still need to get the point across and we all still need a "remark" from time to time that is hurtful and causes deep insult. So.. How do you do it?

Women are competitive by nature, many women, deep down inside feel that worth is somewhat judged by physical beauty it's in our blood our nature. Men hold their value on strength and dominance. It's in there nature to do so.  

That scragly woman in the corner snickering at you may be doing so because she thinks you are blowing Lord Long Shank for your silks and a soft bed.  Where as she is too damn ugly and torn up to get Lord Long Shanks attention. His wife might even want to kill you cause she blames you for not being able to get him in the sack to knock her up. And that guy in the corner may hate you because you give Long Shank more attention than you do him and he knows that if he stands up to Long Shank he could be killed on the spot. Funny thing is.. You may not be sexing up Long Shank at all. But none of that matters cause the curve of your smooth hips and sultry good looks is clouding everyone's view. It's not that you are sleeping with Long Shank that's got them upset. It's that you have something they all want.  

So how do we fix this?? How do we say.. ok,  whore its the wrong word.. How can we use other ways to express that hate and jealously without the stigma of our Earthly views? I really don't know the answer .. I am just voicing what I think is the real problem.

I would say think about it the next time that you throw out an insult or make a snicker. And be sure that you are snickering without personal prejudice, but with that of your PC. .

[Cuusardo]

Allow me to reiterate...

The point of this thread is that many people are taking a sexist, Judaeo-Christian double standard of the real world and putting them into a society in which it does not belong.  Female PCs are being looked down upon for having sex, and males are not.

[Agent_137]

1. I only have problems OOCly with F-me PCs is when they don't fit their damn profession. Long hair, flawless skin, beautiful nails on a Bynner? BULLSHIT. That'll make me think, "Damn, she's not taking into account the game world." and It'll make my character say, "How do you stay so fancied up? You skipping latrine duty and sparring and never taking a contract? Or are you a magicker? MAGICKER! AAHHH RUN!"

2. A lot of people overlook the massive amount of F-me male PCs. Don't. They should be scoffed at -just- as much, if you're going to scoff. My friend who's a new player asked me why there's so few fat people? Granted hunters and fighters won't likely be fat, but it isn't much of a stretch that for most other professions that don't involve aerobics as part of their daily lives are going to have a bit of pudge!

3. For most commoners, I think attractiveness will have less to do with typical western beauty and more to do with effectiveness, profession, income, social status, etc. For all my PCs, beauty hasn't been the deciding factor in their choice of interest. Maybe for just a romp it holds more sway. But for choice of mate? It's easily below income, social status, and what they can offer in such a partnership. I had one guy who'd only date a woman that could at least stand up to him in the sparring ring.

4. All my PCs have had different preferences for how they like to go about thier sexual life. Some wanted quality over quantity. Some weren't interested in sex at all. Some wanted anything they could get. Some wouldn't waste time with anyone that wasn't worthy of a mate. But the key thing all my PCs believed, and is suggested by the docs, is that how some one else runs their sex life doesn't make two shits to you. It may not be the way you do things, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I would go as far to stretch this into real life. Mind your own damn business.

5. I don't understand Jhunter's question. He wants to know about testosterone levels and crap. You're going too deep, man. The code says men and women are equal, the docs say they're equal. They're equal. You make up your own chemical justification if you need it. Then share it, we'd like to hear.

6. I don't understand how this thread has lasted so long. The documents are very explicit about this. And if you don't want to follow the docs, special app or go home. Thanks.

[Bestatte]

Allow me to reiterate...

The point of this thread is that many people are taking a sexist, Judaeo-Christian double standard of the real world and putting them into a society in which it does not belong.  Female PCs are being looked down upon for having sex, and males are not.

I guess I just don't see this often enough to think it's a problem. I don't see female PCs being looked down upon for having sex. I see *specific* female PCs being looked down on for using weakness, reliance on sexual charisma and "need for the man" as a means to get ahead, when the documents state very clearly that women are not the "weaker" sex, nor do they "need" a man any more (or less) than a man "needs" a woman, nor are they supposed to be any more or less sexually charismatic than men.

That, I feel, is the real issue. If other people think it's just a matter of sex, then I think other people are putting way too much value on sex, given the genre of the game.