Ah I misunderstood your ask, too.  So this thread is about feedback on this specific idea, if you have any about it.  I'm not really interested in getting into a discussion about our stat system, sorry.  I'll say that I didn't design the system 30+ years ago for stats, it's what we have, and there's no interest in changing it at this time.

Why is it your preference? What is it that you prefer about this current stat system that compels you to keep it this way when literally all other games of every type discovered long ago that it wasn't worthwhile? "Because I said so" isn't much of an answer.

QuoteFrom the announcement found here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60327.0.html
"The overall goal of this is to help towards making a small reduction in The Grind for most characters.  It also introduces a new dynamic when considering character stats if you are concerned about learning skills more quickly."

That wasn't what I meant to ask. I was asking about the nature of this "design preference" for a stat system where you might roll 19 17 17 15, or 16 12 8 7, based purely on raw luck that you can do nothing about. I appreciate that this isn't quite the original topic, but when I made a thread to discuss just this, no staff members weighed in at all. Feel free to move these posts into that thread if you like, but I do hope you'll give an actual answer.

Quote from: Roon on April 23, 2024, 10:04:50 AMAre all other games in existence wrong and only Arm is right, or might it not be the other way around?

It's not a matter of "wrong" or "right".  It's a matter of preference and game design.

Quote from: Roon on April 23, 2024, 10:04:50 AMMost of all, I would love to hear what the perceived benefits of this current system are supposed to be. Given the fact that you're proposing making stats matter even more (at least in principle), I feel it's fair to ask.

From the announcement found here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60327.0.html
"The overall goal of this is to help towards making a small reduction in The Grind for most characters.  It also introduces a new dynamic when considering character stats if you are concerned about learning skills more quickly."

Quote from: Halaster on April 23, 2024, 09:44:08 AMWe're not trying to be like them.  I think it's a good idea to pay attention to how other games do things, and if something is a good idea, maybe consider doing the same.  But just because other games do something doesn't mean we need to, or should, or want to.

It is a good idea to reduce the level of "your PC is forever superior/inferior because of a diceroll at the start," which is why absolutely all other forms of gaming did that around the turn of the millennium. Hell, not just other forms of gaming - all other RPIs did it, too. It's only Armageddon that stuck with wildly random stats. Are all other games in existence wrong and only Arm is right, or might it not be the other way around?

Most of all, I would love to hear what the perceived benefits of this current system are supposed to be. Given the fact that you're proposing making stats matter even more (at least in principle), I feel it's fair to ask.

Quote from: roughneck on April 23, 2024, 08:59:32 AMFolks who say this would not help the grind, what in the world?

The timers were never a problem. Any skill that can be raised as fast as the timer allows is a non-problematic skill. When people talk about the "grind," I don't think they mean skills like forage and knifemaking. They mean skills that are either difficult to fail (i.e. many combat skills after mid-level), hard to justify using frequently (e.g. steal) or hard to acquire the things that let you use them (e.g. pick).

Those are the kinds of skills that take a long time and/or require that you do questionable things in pursuit of opportunities to use them, and thus become a grind. Lowering the skill timer doesn't do a whole lot. For the skills that aren't hard to raise, there's no problem that needs solving - and for the skills that are, lowering the timer doesn't help, because those skills aren't held back by the timer but by the fact that the game doesn't offer reasonably accessible opportunities to use or fail them unless you do unrealistic stuff.

Lowering the skill timer doesn't solve any problems. It helps where the help is least needed, and does nothing where it's most needed. Skills that you can raise at will as fast as the timer permits are not skills that needed to go up even faster. The problem is the skills that might still be stuck at journeyman after 15 days of playtime because they just stopped failing, or because there isn't anyone who's able/willing to supply you with lockpicks, or whatever it is that's getting in the way. The skill timer is never the thing that's in the way.

Quote from: Halaster on April 23, 2024, 09:44:08 AMWe're not trying to be like them.  I think it's a good idea to pay attention to how other games do things, and if something is a good idea, maybe consider doing the same.  But just because other games do something doesn't mean we need to, or should, or want to.

I completely understand that, I don't think you should copy other games just because they're successful or popular, but I do think even discussing it in a vacuum, the amount of RnG in Armageddon character creation is pretty heavy. I've played characters with both abysmal stats and godlike stats and it's pretty night and day. But it's also such a subjective thing that It's a little difficult to discuss.

Maybe I have a bit of a bias, on several occasions I've written up a character I was really excited for just to roll terrible stats, which usually takes the winds out of my sails for the excitement I once had. I understand wanting to have some variety in character creation, but I guess personally I just feel as if there are better ways to go about it? One way for example is having it so stats are random, but always total the same amount, post-modifiers. I've actually seen a few other muds do this, and it results in characters that are either well-balanced, or lop-sided, which can be interesting in it's own way.

At the end of the day I do know that it's a 'design vision' thing, but I do think it's important to keep in mind that I doubt many people enjoy rolling a character with bad stats. And once you do, there's nothing you can really do about it aside from 'deal with it until you die/store', which kinda just sucks. I think I wouldn't be so sore about the topic if it wasn't for the fact that there's nothing you can do once you're stuck with bad stats.

Quote from: Kavrick on April 22, 2024, 11:13:48 PMIt's a drum I've bashed since I've started playing. The complete RNG in character creation stats feels like a relic of a bygone age and there are good reasons why modern day rpgs, both tabletop, text-based and any other type of roleplaying game have pretty much completely removed RNG from character creation.

We're not trying to be like them.  I think it's a good idea to pay attention to how other games do things, and if something is a good idea, maybe consider doing the same.  But just because other games do something doesn't mean we need to, or should, or want to.

Quote from: Bogre on April 22, 2024, 03:21:00 PMI agree with Windstorm's point. Skill timers are such that you are cannot go up 10 ticks in an RL day, or whatever, which discourages constant  grinding of skills. Decreasing that means you can maybe get a couple more gains if you stay logged in for a long time, but it doesn't really change the more casual play pattern of log in once or every couple days and train. One main 'grind' people feel is that people feel like they start really weak and don't get up to capable for a few days played - this change might make it slightly quicker for those who play a lot, but matters less for those people who log in far more intermittently.

The other grind is that some skills (combat skills, namely) simply won't increase because the rate of failure is low, and sometimes the rate of skill gain even if failing is low. Reduced timers won't really matter if you're never triggering the timer by gaining.

I moreover think that the characters to benefit, if they were spending that long online, would be high-stat, combat-stat prioritized characters, and helps out already powerful races (dwarves, muls, elves) that need very insanely godlike in PVP and very dangerous to other PCs. And that's not even considering ways to boost stats, which presumeably would then help timers.

-------------------

My thought would rather be help the initial curve out and make the top-end progress require investment (but not impossible flailing like now). That would be to increase the % chance to gain from novice->apprentice, apprentice->jman, and then once there you have a bit tougher of a time. You could even make it so novice->apprentice combat skills bump by 2 per gain, and then slow to 1, keeping offense/defense where its at, which I believe would starkly improve the time-to-not-newbie, get people on an even playing field faster.

 Obviously I don't think anyone wants it to be laughably easy to get maxed out combat chars, since those are overwhelmingly powerful vs PVE and PVP balance, and makes it hard for new PCs to catch up or be meaningful. But in a season, there is a limiter in the eventual end of season so you don't want everyone frustrated at a 'plateau' and trying to metagame past it.
 

Just because a change doesn't fix all scenarios doesn't mean a change shouldn't happen.  You guys are right, this doesn't do much for some groups of people, but it does for other groups.  It's still OK to make the change.

Folks who say this would not help the grind, what in the world?

If the stat you would naturally prioritize then helps you gain skills faster, you are grinding less. Couple that with higher starting skills for mundane classes and subclasses, and we are on fast-track baby.

Based on Halaster's first post. The worst case scendario with low wis and secondary stat is it remains the same as before... so your grind is either the same or it's better. Neutral is your worst case scenario.

Randomized stats is a completely different topic.

Halaster's post:

- High wisdom, low secondary stat - It will be a little slower in that skill than if you just had a high wisdom in the old system.
- High wisdom, high secondary stat - It will be noticeably faster in that skill than the old system where if you just had a high wisdom.
- Low wisdom, low secondary stat - It will be about the same as the old system if you had a low wisdom.
- Low wisdom, high secondary stat - It will be noticeably faster in that skill than the old system where if you just had a high secondary stat

Tongue in cheek:

double the timer on combat skills
double the gain when a fail tick occurs


The only people it "punishes" are people who play multiple-hours per day, but if you log in every day you'll still be able to keep up, as it were. It would require less Days Played, but a similar amount of Time Played (10d played won't matter as much as you playing for a month consistently).

Numbers obviously could change, but I feel this would help "the grind", as I see the grind being affected more by opportunity to fail than by the timer being less. If I find that opportunity to get my fails once a week, and only get one point out of it, it feels bad.