Come on. Nuff said. Don't be sneaking around in the dark with that headband glow lit or holding a torch.
I second this. Its pretty silly
On the face of it, I agree.
However, hiding is not "living in shadow" specifically. Sometimes its just "mixing in with the crowd" or "not drawing attention to yourself". Having a headband glow crystal on at all times is, arguably, more likely the norm than not in a crowd.
And if you're hiding in a room, behind someone's counter or a couch, they may not see it either.
I would say do not cancel hide, but somehow take into account that there IS a light source active. So you get a reduction to the hide roll, or something.
Have it make hiding impossible unless the room has the 'you blend into the crowd' flag.
City hiding in this game is something as simple as having your hood up and being unnoticed. It isn't always going to be crouching behind a tree with a torch. You could be codely hidden while wearing full Jade leathers and sneaking into the Templar District because what you're roleplaying is walking on in unnoticed.
From the helpfile:
The latter was developed as a hunting technique and has little application inside of a city or building, and the former developed using stealth in blending into crowds and irregularities of buildings (and having little application in the desert).
What do people have at night in the city? Light sources. How do you blend in? Be unremarkable to those around. Beyond which, playability wise, removing light sources from hidden PCs pretty much means criminal characters can't work at night.
However, I can't think of any reason wilderness hide light sources would be okay. You'd see any light from miles off at night, if there was no moons. I would actually like to see light sources broadcast much further at night in the wilds. Campfires especially far. That just increases player interaction and reinforces how scary it is outside.
If I'm understanding the OP:
The concern is this:
IF you are in a dark room, where no one can see anything or anyone to begin with.
AND IF you are hiding
AND IF you are the one who lights your torch or other source of illumination
THEN you should stand out, and not be hidden anymore.
All those conditions need to be met. You need to be in a dark room. And hidden. AND light a source of illumination on your person.
Am I understanding this?
Quote from: Hestia on January 19, 2023, 10:51:44 AM
If I'm understanding the OP:
The concern is this:
IF you are in a dark room, where no one can see anything or anyone to begin with.
AND IF you are hiding
AND IF you are the one who lights your torch or other source of illumination
THEN you should stand out, and not be hidden anymore.
All those conditions need to be met. You need to be in a dark room. And hidden. AND light a source of illumination on your person.
Am I understanding this?
Almost. OP is suggesting that HAVING, WEARING, or HOLDING a source of light that is lit will remove hidden.
AFAIK lighting a light source would be an action that breaks hide as-is.
> hide
So sneeky. You attempt to hide.
> es torch
You stop trying to hide.
You light an agafari torch with your firesticks.
> hide
You can't hide while your agafari torch is lit.
> extinguish torch
Sure.
> cast 'een un lightbulb maka light' me
A light bulb appears over your head and switches on. Sweet!
> hide
Not with a magick lightbulb over your head, lol.
Someone flies in from the up with a lit rag-wrapped bone torch.
I would not like for this to break hide due to this making cave stealth and night time stealth impossible without being able to see in the dark but honestly it should add a penalty to your hide/sneak rolls for every lit object on your person
If there's a list of light sources tracked for a room, I think it'd just be a special condition to check when the count of light sources is 1 and then check if that 1 source of light is held by a hidden/invisible person.
The only time carrying light should reveal you, is when there isn't already ambient light in the area.
Due to how binary see/not see is, I'm not really sure it's a good idea.
what would be a good idea is to have a command that actively searches for hiding people. Make it give high delay before, Stam drain, and combat penalty. So people don't do it Willy nilly with no threat. But if you are in the room that should be dark and yet you see some light from behind that corner, it stands to reason that you'd investigate
Quote from: Hestia on January 19, 2023, 10:51:44 AM
If I'm understanding the OP:
The concern is this:
IF you are in a dark room, where no one can see anything or anyone to begin with.
AND IF you are hiding
AND IF you are the one who lights your torch or other source of illumination
THEN you should stand out, and not be hidden anymore.
All those conditions need to be met. You need to be in a dark room. And hidden. AND light a source of illumination on your person.
Am I understanding this?
Sort of. Not in crowds but in every other situation it should be blatantly obvious. Even in crowds it should give a penalty as light draws the eye.
As it is you can light your light and rehide.
Even if it was a flat -40 penalty for wearing or holding lit objects it would be an improvement. You have fixed people hiding with hitched mounts this is the next step. I've been in dark rooms before and a green glow walks in and out without a person to be seen. 2 spook.
Even for magickally invisible PCs it shouldn't allow them to hide on top of that (although of course they would still be invisible).
I think it would really depend on the room flags.
On hundred, if I'm sitting in a dark cave and someone walks in with a torch, they probably shouldn't be hiding.
Sitting on a roof top, enjoying a nice sandstorm in the dark and someone climbs up with a lit glow ... Probably shouldn't be able to be hiding.
If I'm on a dark but populated road, and someone walks by with a torch, is it possibly it could light up the area, and I can't really make out the person, probably. Not sure if even "a shadow is here" is quite fitting though.
If it's dark and stormy to the point that I might notice a torch but doesn't really let me see anything, hiding maybe doesn't matter, but should probably still be allowed.
I don't like this idea.
First of all, the room light source flag is all or nothing, it doesn't take into account room size. A glow light shouldn't be lighting the entire area and some rooms are huge. Secondly there are no different levels of light, when you are hiding and sneaking, you are probably only need enough light to see where you are going and at some point you should be experienced enough to to turn off your light source or dim it as you approach people with light sources of their own.
Since the code doesn't take into account all these factors leaving it the way it is better than nerfing hide.
I also believe if you are in a dark room and someone hidden/sneaking walks in using a light sorce, the entire room lights up to you giving the person away even if you can't see them.
i think its not even an idea, its a bug. you are in darkness, the room is lit suddenly and look around can't see the one carrying a torch? yeah, only if i m blnd
So Dresan doesn't want a lit light to break hide in darkness but wants to nerf flee to...buff backstab I guess?...alright.
Thanks for the support, others. It just makes sense realism wise.
I would dig a different shape with someone hidden/invis and light.
A vague illuminated figure
so you can't see someone completely, it's an in and out as if you are catching it with scan. If you are fast enough to set a watch on then, you might keep aware of them.
slight of hand would give the hider a chance to extinguish light without breaking hide. But if you extinguish it, whoever has you on watch keeps you on watch.
@Inks I just think your idea is terrible. At least I least i provided my reasoning for why i believe your idea is terrible, not just called you a troll or ha-yuk-yuked at it.
This community has been great at pointing out the toxicity and failings of the staff but does not look in the mirror to see where they have contributed to some of the problems we've had over the years.
But i digress,you are right i rather not see stealth get nerfed anymore
I don't think anyone has been pointing out any toxicity or failings in quite a while, now — because there, quite frankly, haven't been any.
I wish I could say the same for this thread: be cool.
There are plenty of examples of someone sneaking with a light source. In fact, a classic image of modern sneakiness is a thief entering the grounds of an area with a flashlight. Hide doesn't mean 'is perfectly invisible' it means 'is in the area, remaining out of sight'. You can do that with a flashlight, or a glow crystal, or even with a torch. In fact, throughout history, people have been stealthy with light sources. It's not a single room in a house for every single zone, but consider the idea of crouching behind a sand dune with a low torch so that you can see your way through, or tiptoeing between cutouts and partial tunnels with a light source to guide your steps, while also staying out of sight.
I'd be ok with it giving a malus though.
Quote from: Brisket on January 23, 2023, 01:07:12 PM
There are plenty of examples of someone sneaking with a light source. In fact, a classic image of modern sneakiness is a thief entering the grounds of an area with a flashlight. Hide doesn't mean 'is perfectly invisible' it means 'is in the area, remaining out of sight'. You can do that with a flashlight, or a glow crystal, or even with a torch. In fact, throughout history, people have been stealthy with light sources. It's not a single room in a house for every single zone, but consider the idea of crouching behind a sand dune with a low torch so that you can see your way through, or tiptoeing between cutouts and partial tunnels with a light source to guide your steps, while also staying out of sight.
I'd be ok with it giving a malus though.
8)
reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t2qOTKOWlY
If there is no other light in the room, I don't know how you can justify carrying a torch and being hidden.
If there is enough light coming off your torch to see someone else, then there is more than enough light for them to see you.
Quote from: lostinspace on January 23, 2023, 02:14:34 PM
If there is no other light in the room, I don't know how you can justify carrying a torch and being hidden.
If there is enough light coming off your torch to see someone else, then there is more than enough light for them to see you.
Unfortunately, there's no way for the code to handle the difference here - it is, as I pointed out in my previous post, very possible to sneak around with a light source and still stay out of sight. Especially in the 'several leagues' rooms. You could just as easily say it doesn't make sense to be able to walk into a room from the west at the same time someone walks into the room from the east and instantly spam threaten/attack them.
Sometimes coded limitations apply to Arm because of the nature of it.
In an ideal system the brighter and less directional the light, the larger the negative. With big torches being the worst and something like a bullseye lantern being the best. If you shine a flashlight directly in someone's face to get a look at them, there's no hiding that.
How about this for an alternative that retains the realism? If sneaking/hiding with a light source, you don't count towards lighting up the room and you can't see any of the creatures in the room as you deftly shutter or direct your light-source away from creatures that could notice it.
Again I don't think the code has the power to do that. It's lit or its not. I'm still down with a malus depending on light size, though.
-1 to malus. it's not always going to be noticeable if someone has a light when hidden; my sneaky elf character could easily be hiding in plain view in the middle of a group of cloaked elves with torches as he slinks on down the street. furthermore in the city most places have light sources near enough even if there's not a light source object in that room.
taking a step back, this is a game and it's a code and playability issue, as well. the way light works if you remove this you have to replace it with a night vision command everyone with stealth gets that lets them see in the dark with practice.
What about making sneaking similar to being mounted, where you need a better riding skill to move with both weapons occupied, and you'd need a better sneaking skill to be hiding and moving stealthily with a torch?
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on January 23, 2023, 09:33:12 PM
-1 to malus. it's not always going to be noticeable if someone has a light when hidden; my sneaky elf character could easily be hiding in plain view in the middle of a group of cloaked elves with torches as he slinks on down the street. furthermore in the city most places have light sources near enough even if there's not a light source object in that room.
taking a step back, this is a game and it's a code and playability issue, as well. the way light works if you remove this you have to replace it with a night vision command everyone with stealth gets that lets them see in the dark with practice.
Alright i actually agree with this and suggest no changes.
Why would any light source cancel hide in a well-lit area, i.e. a glow crystal outside at high sun?
I like the idea, but only if you're the one providing the sole light for the room.
So I'm in a cave, I have a torch out in my hand, I shouldn't be able to ninja vanish as the only one in the cave.
Or just have it when you type hide that it automatically extinguishes your torch.