Currently threaten allows bash/kill as options to initiate combat while on foot. Bash is distinctly useful compared to kill because it causes the enemy to sit on success but has the caveat that you must be on foot to attempt a bash. In situations where you are mounted your options are limited to only kill out of a threaten. The lack of a charge threaten option is a disservice to the playerbase as charge is absolutely meant to be flavored as a mounted bash. Both mention in the help files very explicitly that they force the victim to sit on a successful execution of technique by the assailant.
Yes, we thought of this. We decided not to go with this.
If anything, charge needs to be less powerful, not more powerful.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 15, 2022, 03:21:34 PM
Yes, we thought of this. We decided not to go with this.
If anything, charge needs to be less powerful, not more powerful.
then find a way to explain why charge is too strong and then make those things no longer true so that threaten doesn't feel incomplete
It could miss when initiating combat chronically the way bash currently does. That would help.
Quote from: Lotion on August 15, 2022, 10:02:58 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 15, 2022, 03:21:34 PM
Yes, we thought of this. We decided not to go with this.
If anything, charge needs to be less powerful, not more powerful.
then find a way to explain why charge is too strong and then make those things no longer true so that threaten doesn't feel incomplete
But then all those players who have charge as their S tier assault tool nerfed and they'll be unhappy, so that you will feel threaten is complete.
Quote from: Lotion on August 15, 2022, 10:02:58 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 15, 2022, 03:21:34 PM
Yes, we thought of this. We decided not to go with this.
If anything, charge needs to be less powerful, not more powerful.
then find a way to explain why charge is too strong and then make those things no longer true so that threaten doesn't feel incomplete
Because it has no counter.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 16, 2022, 10:58:28 AMBecause it has no counter.
Bash vs Charge:
- Can you always do it? no,no
- can't bash while mounted (sorry, roundears)
- can't charge while dismounted
- Any way you always avoid it? yes,yes
- by being mounted (sorry, delfies)
- Is there an opportunity cost to trying it?
yes,
no - failed bash leaves you sitting
- failed charge u still good
- (both do have substantial post-command delay, which is the real cost in pro mode)
What about changing charge in one of these ways?
(1) Make it much easier to avoid based on agility, defense, ?? - such that the average desert elf has say a 50% chance of evading max charge.
(2) Add punitive post-command delay. This is basically how backstab is balanced...backstab being another high-value opener with not much inherent downside or counter.
(3) Making it super grindy to master (everybody's favorite, heh, heh), like weapon skills.
(4) Adding a critical failure mode (fall off ur mount). Not really viable on its own since charge is easy to master, but combined with 1 or 3 could be something.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 16, 2022, 10:58:28 AM
Quote from: Lotion on August 15, 2022, 10:02:58 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 15, 2022, 03:21:34 PM
Yes, we thought of this. We decided not to go with this.
If anything, charge needs to be less powerful, not more powerful.
then find a way to explain why charge is too strong and then make those things no longer true so that threaten doesn't feel incomplete
Because it has no counter.
You can't charge mounted people and from what I've seen almost all of the magickal things that prevent you from being bashed also prevent you from being charged.
This is probably not helpful, but I just got a vision:
QuoteThe veteran T'zai Byn sergeant meets your charge and knocks you over!
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 16, 2022, 06:30:17 PM
QuoteThe veteran T'zai Byn sergeant meets your charge and knocks you over!
"drags you off your kank"
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on August 16, 2022, 01:35:01 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 16, 2022, 10:58:28 AMBecause it has no counter.
Bash vs Charge:
- Can you always do it? no,no
- can't bash while mounted (sorry, roundears)
- can't charge while dismounted
- Any way you always avoid it? yes,yes
- by being mounted (sorry, delfies)
- Is there an opportunity cost to trying it? yes,no
- failed bash leaves you sitting
- failed charge u still good
- (both do have substantial post-command delay, which is the real cost in pro mode)
What about changing charge in one of these ways?
(1) Make it much easier to avoid based on agility, defense, ?? - such that the average desert elf has say a 50% chance of evading max charge.
(2) Add punitive post-command delay. This is basically how backstab is balanced...backstab being another high-value opener with not much inherent downside or counter.
(3) Making it super grindy to master (everybody's favorite, heh, heh), like weapon skills.
(4) Adding a critical failure mode (fall off ur mount). Not really viable on its own since charge is easy to master, but combined with 1 or 3 could be something.
Those are conditions, not counters. Bash counter is "meets your charge and knocks you over!" Not the conditions for executing a bash.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 17, 2022, 12:44:31 PM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on August 16, 2022, 01:35:01 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 16, 2022, 10:58:28 AMBecause it has no counter.
Bash vs Charge:
- Can you always do it? no,no
- can't bash while mounted (sorry, roundears)
- can't charge while dismounted
- Any way you always avoid it? yes,yes
- by being mounted (sorry, delfies)
- Is there an opportunity cost to trying it? yes,no
- failed bash leaves you sitting
- failed charge u still good
- (both do have substantial post-command delay, which is the real cost in pro mode)
What about changing charge in one of these ways?
(1) Make it much easier to avoid based on agility, defense, ?? - such that the average desert elf has say a 50% chance of evading max charge.
(2) Add punitive post-command delay. This is basically how backstab is balanced...backstab being another high-value opener with not much inherent downside or counter.
(3) Making it super grindy to master (everybody's favorite, heh, heh), like weapon skills.
(4) Adding a critical failure mode (fall off ur mount). Not really viable on its own since charge is easy to master, but combined with 1 or 3 could be something.
Those are conditions, not counters. Bash counter is "meets your charge and knocks you over!" Not the conditions for executing a bash.
You can bash as many times in a fight as you want, you can only charge one time at the very beginning of the fight. In the context of threaten they are exactly the same. You also need to succeed on both your threaten AND your charge rolls which means in the context of threaten charge is weaker than in a vaccum.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 17, 2022, 12:44:31 PM
Those are conditions, not counters. Bash counter is "meets your charge and knocks you over!"
Gotcha. So in the context of charge, a counter would be something like:
- knocks you off your mount
- knocks your mount to a sitting position
- gets a free attack at you
- gets a free attack at your mount with a damage bonus (without causing your mount to enter combat)
Anecdotally, I've only seen the bash counter once from a PC. #perpetualnoob though.
>The veteran Byn Trooper side-steps your charge, pulling you from your mount to the ground.
>A war-beetle tumbles north.
Losing your mount seems like a suitably harsh counter
I still think this would be a good addition to allow a raider type character to have less lethal options than "kill" when mounted. Currently we have bluff (fake threaten), bash (can't do while mounted), subdue (can't do while mounted), and kill (only truly threatening threaten while mounted). Charge has the capability to force the opponent to change from standing to sitting which forces them to stand before fleeing and would fill the same niche as threaten bash does while the attacker is on foot.
Alternatively:
run
mercy on
east
charge grebber
disengage
shout Be cool i just want to take some of your stuff not kill you!
And queue the grebber being too slow to disengage, allowing their PC to auto-attack back, restarting combat while they're seated, panicking, and dying.
I would say that maybe replace charge with trample, as a "threatened" action should be something you do because you're in close range. A charge would suggest that if they draw their sword, you will run them down from 50ft away before they get a chance. Versus being up close and trying to trample over them.
But then, trample is super weak compared to bash so its not a good equivalent.
I agree with people saying that threaten charge should not be a thing.
Quote from: Riev on August 03, 2023, 06:56:20 PMI would say that maybe replace charge with trample, as a "threatened" action should be something you do because you're in close range. A charge would suggest that if they draw their sword, you will run them down from 50ft away before they get a chance. Versus being up close and trying to trample over them.
But then, trample is super weak compared to bash so its not a good equivalent.
If an angry bull is 3 feet away you would still fear it charging you. Someone riding a bull from 3 feet away could still make it charge right into you. As long as there is no threaten charge the next best thing for mounted raiders to force-sit their foes would be dismount threaten bash which is absurd.
I think we disagree on the difference between charging at someone and trying to trample over them.