Hey everyone. So, I thought I understood how armor worked in regards to rolls, but now I'm not sure. I thought that armor on a body location reduced the damage done to that body location when it is hit. But, there is some armor in the game that i've seen that doesnt go on body-parts that are hit, to my knowledge. If it was like DnD, total armor value would raise AC, but I'm pretty sure thats now how its done in Arm.
So, whats the deal?
What sorts of things are you referring to? Shoulder plates? Faceguards?
Yeah, stuff like that. Shoulderplates/pauldrons, faceguards, backplates, breechguard (pelvis)
We might need staff to weigh in on this, I remember this was discussed in discord two years ago or so and the response from staff was vague. I would also love a clear answer on this.
Per help armor, your understanding is correct. Location only and no general AC.
breechguard is for the waist location, which if you've sparred you'll notice is a place you can get hit on.
backplates and faceguards have specific uses for threats that directly affect those locations. You are correct that they are not locations you'd get hit on in normal sparring.
I think that's all I can safely say.
Oh, nice! Thanks. That helps a bit.
Sorry if I'm prodding into secret stuff, btw!
This (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Armor) tracks with my experience. Also, I can be wearing badass plate armor everywhere, but if I'm not wearing a helmet, my head is going to get rocked if it gets hit. If you're wearing armor in a location that won't be hit (pauldrons, faceplates), it's probably just decorative.
That was the implication when this was brought up a while ago, that shoulder plates are only decorative. Would love clarity/confirmation of that. It sucks for this to be an insider tip only veterans know (or assume) which is in no way clear in game.
It's just logic.
If: armor provides damage reduction to the place hit, as provided in the helpfile
And if: you do not get hit on the shoulder
Then: shoulder armor cannot provide damage reduction
I don't think it's secret, but it probably wouldn't hurt to have an extra sentence in the helpfile :shrug emoticon: Maybe put in a Website > Bug/Typo/Idea request?
It's not secret, but it's wholly illogical and could get a newbie killed.
Why is it illogical: pauldrons and shoulder guards are some of the most valuable pieces of armor someone can have in reality, and they were often thick and sturdy so that you don't effing catch a lance there. Of course only the rich would have full suits of armor, so let's talk poorer infantry: infantry often just had bands of metal along their shoulders and arms because again, shoulder armor is immensely important because you cannot fight or work easily without your arms. Yet it is the most worthless armor in game. Illogical.
How it can get a newbie killed: encumbrance matters just as much as armor for survival in this game. If this armor is just dead weight, it's only purpose is [1] decoration [2] getting newbies killed.
Either:
- Document that some armor is only decorative.
- Make shoulders hit locations
- Add some other AC benefit or benefit to this armor.
It's something that's now been discussed a few times over the years, and as I always say, better to fix these things than be jaded and blasé about it.
So, this is kinda huge information.
If that is true about pauldrons.... Why do we have an item trap in game? Virtually, they are great armor. Numbers-wise, now, it seems like they are an expensive debuff.
That kinda sucks lol.
I don't want to rush to assume anything and we need clarity from staff on it. You can see what veteran assumptions are.
I would love it if shoulder guards gave some blanket AC bonus and weren't associated with a new hit location. If staff could offer any clarity (maybe they have added this AC effect since it last was discussed) that would rock.
This thread summarizes some thoughts of the players to the staff while they were working on harmonizing some of the armor items:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54534.0.html
This post in particular is quite enlightening:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54534.msg1029853.html#msg1029853
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 02:34:15 PM
A maybe more readable version of stuff.
|
Head |
Neck |
Arms |
Wrist |
Hands |
Body |
Legs |
Feet |
Waist |
Shoulder |
Ankle |
Cloth |
0.50 |
0.25 |
1.00 |
0.25 |
0.25 |
2.00 |
1.25 |
0.75 |
0.25 |
0.25 |
0.25 |
Cheap Leather |
0.75 |
0.50 |
2.00 |
0.50 |
0.75 |
4.00 |
2.75 |
1.25 |
0.75 |
0.50 |
0.50 |
Wood/Bone |
1.50 |
1.00 |
4.00 |
0.75 |
1.25 |
8.00 |
5.25 |
2.75 |
1.25 |
1.00 |
0.75 |
Leather |
1.75 |
1.25 |
4.50 |
1.00 |
1.50 |
9.00 |
6.00 |
3.00 |
1.50 |
1.25 |
1.00 |
Heavy Leather/Studded |
2.50 |
1.50 |
6.00 |
1.25 |
2.00 |
12.00 |
8.00 |
4.00 |
2.00 |
1.50 |
1.25 |
Cheap Chitin/Cheap Obsidian |
2.75 |
1.75 |
6.75 |
1.25 |
2.25 |
13.50 |
9.00 |
4.50 |
2.25 |
1.75 |
1.25 |
Chitin/Obsidian |
3.25 |
2.00 |
8.25 |
1.75 |
2.75 |
16.50 |
11.00 |
5.50 |
2.75 |
2.00 |
1.75 |
Shell |
5.00 |
3.25 |
12.50 |
2.50 |
4.25 |
25.00 |
16.75 |
8.25 |
4.25 |
3.25 |
2.50 |
Heavy Shell |
7.00 |
4.25 |
17.25 |
3.50 |
5.75 |
34.50 |
23.00 |
11.50 |
5.75 |
4.25 |
3.50 |
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 02:42:35 PM
Note that the last two, shoulder and ankle, aren't really armor spots, since you don't get hit there, but folks have over time made armor for them so we included them.
Emphasis mineSo, to summarize:
Items worn on these locations (the
HIT LOCATIONS) have some "ArmorClass" associated with it:
Head, Neck, Arms, Wrist, Hands, Body, Legs, Feet, Waist.
help 'armor'
"This means that if your character wears some armor on their arms, only their arms will be protected. This system allows you to manage the weight of armor your character is carrying fairly well. Note that such ideas as Armor Class are not present in Armageddon.
"During combat, specific hit locations are determined, and if there is armor on that body part, some protection may be afforded. The armor may block none, some, or all of the damage, but in any case, be aware that the character will still probably take stun damage."
However, in 'help wear locaton'
help 'wear location'
"... Shoulder:
Mostly decorative. Patches, braids, and epaulettes. Can be worn simply on 'shoulder', and first empty shoulder will be used, or 'left shoulder', 'right shoulder'. Two possible."
My suggestion is to link 'help wear location' to 'help armor'
Good suggestion LB, but also Ulga's reaction was good. Why are we just letting these items that are "secretly" (AKA illogically and unrealistically) a debuff continue to... just be a debuff?
Would love to see it addressed!!
Uh. So ... there are items that affect certain resistances that are not worn on hit locations. "Decorative" items may affect those overall character resistances.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on March 02, 2021, 01:56:25 PM
Uh. So ... there are items that affect certain resistances that are not worn on hit locations. "Decorative" items may affect those overall character resistances.
Do they?
Do they??Valeria, like many smart vets, implied they are pointless. Mansa said we have data on the weight of these items but no explicit data whether they are useful. LBalboa pointed out docs imply it's also just decorative.
We need a staffer to weigh in or else the truth here is hard to suss out. Maybe you are right, but data isn't showing it so far.
In some cases, yes, explicitly, as long as they went into the game as I designed them. Since I was always told when something I wanted to do couldn't be done, I assume they did.
So. Given my experience, I do believe that marginal enhancement exists for these various things. All of them, I don't know, but some of them, yes.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on March 02, 2021, 02:48:26 PM
as long as they went into the game as I designed them
Again this clause subtly indicates we need confirmation from staff. I have been noticing more pushback on crafts, if anything because staff are being more transparent about what is and is not codedly possible for crafts.
Basically I just want to know if those scrab shell shoulder guards are worth a damn or just dead weight.
I just wanna know if I have to debuff myself in the pursuit of fashion.
A gigantic main description and having all of your wear_locations equipped with something "exotic" (I would highly suggest an hawk for your shoulder slot) is all that matters on Armageddon.
I want to address one (and only one) specific thing: the whole part of this thread involving "debuffing."
This is not a thing. There is a huge difference between "wearing decorative things that take up wear slots and have weight to them, therefore contributing to encumbrance" and "wearing things that remove benefits that you did have, and no longer have, as a direct result of wearing that item."
A PC's natural encumbrance is not a buff. Therefore, adding weight to increase encumbrance is not a debuff.
That's my one and only contribution to this thread. Carry on!
Fair enough! My main focus on that sentiment was caused by the fact that it would act as armor virtually, but results in only negative effects code-side (through encumbrance).
We dont have to use the word debuff.
It would be weird that a character could wear a large piece of heavy armor on their shoulders (or elsewhere, for that matter!) and have it play zero part in combat.
If it /does/ play a part, that would be good to know.
To be fair, if you are at "light", and then you put on shoulder pads and you are still at "light", nothing changes even if they did absolutely nothing.
If you are unconcious piercing weapons target the back by default. Some people who are afraid of spooky buckstabu wear backplates. A lot of random things have a specific useful effect that makes sense if you look at the item. If you stay at the same encumbrance level it doesnt affect your character carrying more. Please never say debuff again it makes me cry blood when Arm is talked about like it is an MMO.
Fashion is power 8)
I understand the newbie was mostly joking because they seem to like to joke! I am sorry for inspiring them to say debuff with my whining.
I literally just want to know what scrab shoulderplates are good for -- decoration only?
It is a mystery. Maybe something (def) maybe nothing. Only imms can know.
Asking about what X item does won't get anywhere and will likely get moderated. Icly it protects your shoulder and makes you look cool.
Quote from: Inks on March 03, 2021, 12:09:25 AM
Icly it protects your shoulder and makes you look cool [like a noob or a mul who can afford the dead weight]
Crossed out the first part that hasn't been confirmed.
Crossed out the second part because the only, ONLY time I have seen a player wearing pauldrons who wasn't a newbie was a mul. The only time. Because encumbrance is irrelevant to muls. So the sample size, the fashion consensus (based off the consensus of what these items codedly do NOT do) is that shoulder plates are for newbies and muls. Cool... I guess.
All the veterans minus one imply it doesn't protect anything. We need data.
Just losing my mind over this because [1] I make armor and study history as a hobby and if these items are codedly useless that is totally illogical [2] if the vets are right that this armor has no coded effects, it EPITOMIZES "stupid undocumented coded things veterans have the privilege of knowing which new players do not," and I would like to eliminate all sources of unjustified, illogical coded advantages for veterans that have no basis in logic or good roleplay.
Staff has already clearly said that shoulder and ankle aren't really armor spots for the purposes of how the code works (i.e., you can't get hit there):
Quote from: mansa on March 02, 2021, 12:13:32 PM
This thread summarizes some thoughts of the players to the staff while they were working on harmonizing some of the armor items:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54534.0.html
This post in particular is quite enlightening:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54534.msg1029853.html#msg1029853
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 02:34:15 PM
A maybe more readable version of stuff.
|
Head |
Neck |
Arms |
Wrist |
Hands |
Body |
Legs |
Feet |
Waist |
Shoulder |
Ankle |
Cloth |
0.50 |
0.25 |
1.00 |
0.25 |
0.25 |
2.00 |
1.25 |
0.75 |
0.25 |
0.25 |
0.25 |
Cheap Leather |
0.75 |
0.50 |
2.00 |
0.50 |
0.75 |
4.00 |
2.75 |
1.25 |
0.75 |
0.50 |
0.50 |
Wood/Bone |
1.50 |
1.00 |
4.00 |
0.75 |
1.25 |
8.00 |
5.25 |
2.75 |
1.25 |
1.00 |
0.75 |
Leather |
1.75 |
1.25 |
4.50 |
1.00 |
1.50 |
9.00 |
6.00 |
3.00 |
1.50 |
1.25 |
1.00 |
Heavy Leather/Studded |
2.50 |
1.50 |
6.00 |
1.25 |
2.00 |
12.00 |
8.00 |
4.00 |
2.00 |
1.50 |
1.25 |
Cheap Chitin/Cheap Obsidian |
2.75 |
1.75 |
6.75 |
1.25 |
2.25 |
13.50 |
9.00 |
4.50 |
2.25 |
1.75 |
1.25 |
Chitin/Obsidian |
3.25 |
2.00 |
8.25 |
1.75 |
2.75 |
16.50 |
11.00 |
5.50 |
2.75 |
2.00 |
1.75 |
Shell |
5.00 |
3.25 |
12.50 |
2.50 |
4.25 |
25.00 |
16.75 |
8.25 |
4.25 |
3.25 |
2.50 |
Heavy Shell |
7.00 |
4.25 |
17.25 |
3.50 |
5.75 |
34.50 |
23.00 |
11.50 |
5.75 |
4.25 |
3.50 |
Quote from: Brokkr on April 11, 2019, 02:42:35 PM
Note that the last two, shoulder and ankle, aren't really armor spots, since you don't get hit there, but folks have over time made armor for them so we included them.
Emphasis mine
If you would like to do something about what is or isn't in the helpfile, since it bothers you:
Quote from: valeria on March 02, 2021, 10:54:22 AM
Maybe put in a Website > Bug/Typo/Idea request?
If it is not a myth and these items are codedly useless, make them -- every single pauldron, shoulder plate, and armored shoulder doily -- useful. This way people will choose to wear them as armor if their character needs armor rather than avoiding them. We then see more realistic roleplay and behavior.
This game is about immersive roleplay, not immersion killing metagaming. If you are saying the state of this armor is fine as is, you are essentially condoning a metagaming advantage for jaded vets and hurting newbies like OP.
It's lovely you want to know what it does or doesn't do.
You won't.
What the armor rework accomplished that was to be player knowledge it already out there and has been quoted twice already. Make your decision from that.
The existing helpfile generally already says all of this:
QuoteGood armor is relatively scarce, and much armor is scavenged from various places, so a piecemeal armor system is used in Armageddon. This means that if your
character wears some armor on their arms, only their arms will be protected. This system allows you to manage the weight of armor your character is carrying fairly well.
Note that such ideas as Armor Class are not present in Armageddon.
During combat, specific hit locations are determined, and if there is armor on that body part, some protection may be afforded. The armor may block none, some, or all
of the damage, but in any case, be aware that the character will still probably take stun damage.
On that note, I'm writing up a revised helpfile to present some of the discussions from the GDB that are not available in the helpfile, since it does seem to "gate" armor-survivability information onto the GDB.
Quote from: triste on March 03, 2021, 08:40:23 AM
If it is not a myth and these items are codedly useless, make them -- every single pauldron, shoulder plate, and armored shoulder doily -- useful. This way people will choose to wear them as armor if their character needs armor rather than avoiding them. We then see more realistic roleplay and behavior.
This game is about immersive roleplay, not immersion killing metagaming. If you are saying the state of this armor is fine as is, you are essentially condoning a metagaming advantage for jaded vets and hurting newbies like OP.
I must disagree with your complaint and assumptions. The staff has provided us with ample information about how armor works. You aren't going to get a detailed explanation or statistics. With the customcraft system, we are able to build many objects that aren't necessarily supported by the code. You can make armor in locations that aren't hit. However, this doesn't necessarily mean the object is useless.
Let me give two possible examples:
You customcraft a horror plated hairpin. Since in hair isn't a target location, you are wearing armor that doesn't really help you via the code. I would consider it a RP tool or decorative piece. There's nothing wrong/broken/meta about the item.
Next month, you customcraft a fang-spiked shoulder plate. Again, this is an object that isn't built for an armor location. However, during your craft submission report, you suggest the spikes on the shoulder plate give you a bonus to bashing people. The staff may or may not add such a bonus (if it's possible). Let's assume they do. Now the object isn't armor code wise. However, it does help you with bashing. Thus it's not a useless object. There's nothing wrong/broken/meta about the object.
If all else fails, you can experiment with the objects. Spar someone wearing a piece of armor and spar them again without it. Perhaps there is a difference, perhaps it doesn't matter? You can find out.
This isn't an advantage for "jaded vets". There is an advantage for those who read the staff posts on the GDB. However, this is available to ALL players, even the newest.
This is widely known now thanks to Ulga's post.
Thanks and bless you for bringing to light this situation that veterans like mansa, valeria, and williamson have excellently elucidated over many paragraphs.
No one should ever be afraid to ask questions and our new players rock.
If it weren't for your question, no light would have been shed on this at all beyond the assumptions players have been left to make from scattered posts. Don't be afraid to ask questions, I pushed hard to learn more (admittedly from a code nerd and armor nerd influenced perspective thinking something was "broken" here) and I have learned some armor is "decorative encumbrance." I can accept that.
You'll be fine. Glad to have you.
Question was asked, question was answered.