As the name of the thread suggests, we'd like to hear some player feedback when it comes to critical/mortally wounded states that PCs can find themselves in.
At current, the code is designed in a certain way that allows checks and balances, various chances for players to either go up (in HP for recovery) or down and into ye olde mantis head. However this can lead to, we feel, OOCly punishing idle times while these take place. And by punishing, as some of you may have witnessed first hand, we're talking upwards of 2 RL hours in certain cases.
Pro: Chance of someone rescuing you. Chance for think(dream) character growth, and RPing out your state if that's your thing.
Con: RL time factors and potential boredom.
We can change this, so that the process is faster. Quicker deaths, quicker recovery, depending on N factors.
Pro: Less OOC wait/idle time for an outcome.
Con: You could die in far shorter fashion before your rescue or char growth can take place.
Given it's you all that obviously put the investment into each of your PCs, we didn't want to blindly change this without some manner of majority. Please comment below with your preference.
TL;DR: - Yes or no to shorter crit/mort times?
No, let the people suffer.
Yes. 15 mins max.
I honestly feel like recuperation rates without being bandaged are fine enough as they are but waiting like 30 minutes to 2 irl hours for someone who's gotten medical attention and their last 3 points of hp to regen is really annoying. Not everyone has the time to spare there so... let bandaged people heal faster so its less of a sit-and-wait thing?
After being bandaged, going from critical to 1hp should be much much quicker.
Waiting 2 hours to see if you're going to 'pop back up' is rough. Personally, I would say the upper limit should be 45minutes.
Quit die works, sure, but "what if I come out of this" is a powerful motivator.
No. I think people who don't want to wait it out have the means to leave. I am assuming there is still a "quit die" command or failing that they can drop link.
I would personally say that somewhere in the range of half an hour would be a good mix of time to see what happens, without being too terribly indisposed in your RL schedule. Allow medical attention to make it much quicker. Perhaps shorter time comes with some lingering stat penalties for an in game day or two, to kind of hammer in that effect of, "Hot damn, I almost died!".
I do think if the time decreases between negative HP and positive HP, that there should be a hit to endurance, or some other visible aspect to the near death experience. It's already easy enough to get a bandage on, sleep, and recover health super quickly. The near death experience should be harrowing if survived.
I agree that 30 minutes seems a reasonable time to figure out if you will live or die.
I'd suggest to speed it up x2, to see if people notice. If it still feels "too long" we can make it x3 or x4.
Off-topic but to respond to a statement in this thread, I don't think there should be any perms or 'hits to endurance' for having a near death experience. Surviving it and roleplaying it is enough, considering how often hitting negative hp by yourself ends up in death as it is.
On topic, shorten it! While I have definitely waited around 2 hours before and found out I survived (I was really grateful), it also seems unfair to someone in the same situation that didn't have 2 hours to cook RL and hang out and wait around that long. I like the shortened time idea, as it still gives you 15-30 minutes to hope someone comes around and wonder if you'll survive, but in a less punishing OOC timeframe.
tl;dr shorten the time
30 minutes seems perfect, long enough to lose your mind, short enough to not be motivation to just go idle.
I think 1/2 hour from max-minus to +1 hp is reasonable. This gives the player plenty of time to decide if he wants his character to die, with the quit-death option, or if he wants to give people a chance to rescue him or finish him off.
Has the process always been the way it is now?
If not, when and how and why did it change to the way it is now?
I'm on team fine as is, with maybe a consideration to improving heal rates when bandaged. I've seen some interesting scenes involving people on the verge of death for more than an hour, that's how long it sometimes takes for a rescue party to find someone, etc.
I'm willing to compromise with a rate tweak like mansa mentions if there is a strong call to speed this up.
I am torn on this.
This seems like a super rare edge case. I don't care too much either way, but I'd prefer to just leave it as it is.
I'd rather leave it as it is. As long as people can opt-out (via quit die), giving people the option of being rescued is good. It can take forever to get a group of people organised for a mundane trip, so an emergency one is not any less involved, plus time at the other end to RP, not just rushing to get to code as quickly as possible is a benefit.
There are lots of things that feel 'too fast'...having a lingering period to RP out what could be a character's final hours (as the character, as those racing to save, as the villain monologuing that caused it), is preferably to allow RP.
This is based on players being able to opt-out if they wish though.
Quote from: Kyviantre on August 22, 2020, 06:47:10 PM
I'd rather leave it as it is. As long as people can opt-out (via quit die), giving people the option of being rescued is good. It can take forever to get a group of people organised for a mundane trip, so an emergency one is not any less involved, plus time at the other end to RP, not just rushing to get to code as quickly as possible is a benefit.
There are lots of things that feel 'too fast'...having a lingering period to RP out what could be a character's final hours (as the character, as those racing to save, as the villain monologuing that caused it), is preferably to allow RP.
This is based on players being able to opt-out if they wish though.
Problem is, that if your character is somewhere that it won't die of thirst before the HPs go back up, the HPs *will* eventually go back up. If you (the player) just flat out don't have time to wait it out, you have to kill off your character. Reducing the time between -7 (or whatever the negative is that's just 1 before beep) to +1 will help *players* make better use of their login time.
I don't want to see it faster. Currently, there is the possibility of rescue during that window. Making it faster would just make people die faster and significantly reduce the chance of rescue by a PC, which, if you want to die and kill off your PC, you can. For the people comfortable with not having that longer window of possible PC rescue, they already have the option to end their PC much quicker.
I've seen some really awesome RP come out of the possibility of being rescued by another PC. Anything that reduces the possibility of RP is bad, in my opinion. Particularly when the alternative already exists.
EDIT: Do the timers changing necessarily have to be equal? What I mean by that is, if a PC is recovering and likely to heal to a point where they could wake up, is it absolutely necessary in speeding that process up to also speed up the process if the HP are going the other direction(negative)? I wouldn't mind the 30 minute max wait for healing, while keeping the longer time in a situation where HP are slowly dropping to allow the possibility of PC intervention/rescue.
Maybe there could be some sort of option added to self terminate once in that range of HP for people not in a situation that could.... Eh. Even as I say that i'm thinking about all the random encounters out there.
Quote from: Aruven on August 22, 2020, 08:16:52 PM
Maybe there could be some sort of option added to self terminate once in that range of HP for people not in a situation that could.... Eh. Even as I say that i'm thinking about all the random encounters out there.
This already exists. It's "quit die"
If you quit while your character is at negative hit points, the
character will die. Note that as a safety feature, you must type
'quit die'. You will receive a warning and instructions if you just
type 'quit' or 'quit test'Question:
Do different classes have different crit timers? Like, warriors might generate hit points at a quicker than pickpockets, and thus pickpockets might have a 2 hour CRIT TIME compared to warriors who might have a 30 minute timer... simply because warriors have a faster 'hit point regen' and it interacts with the crit rolls more frequently?
I am more for a "second wind" Option like you have when starving/thirst.
Wake, still neg HP but have a few seconds to slap on a bandage, take a cure, way somebody...maybe even move a room or two...Though moving should cost you something like causing more damage...But might be worth it if shelter is only a room or two away.
Otherwise, I do not see a problem with current crit timers. Mansa beat me to it, but there is always quit die.
Quote from: X-D on August 22, 2020, 09:36:28 PM
I am more for a "second wind" Option like you have when starving/thirst.
Wake, still neg HP but have a few seconds to slap on a bandage, take a cure, way somebody...maybe even move a room or two...Though moving should cost you something like causing more damage...But might be worth it if shelter is only a room or two away.
Otherwise, I do not see a problem with current crit timers. Mansa beat me to it, but there is always quit die.
Perhaps an endurance roll to see of you lose conciousness every tick while in negatives.
Yes
I don't think a permanent hit to endurance, but more akin to spice recovery and poison recovery. It drops your maximum HP 10-15, and makes recovering health without bandaging properly more difficult until you can sleep for a prolonged period of time/get properly bandaged.
Yes to 'less time', particularly if bandaged into a recovery mode.
No, to 'keep the same, unchanged'.
Quit die is always an option. If a player chooses to sit and wait for two hours watching a number dance between zero and negative whatever then that's their choice. If you wanted to get back to 1hp faster then you should have considered having more endurance.
I really do like the ability of being able to way someone for help while you are in a helpless state and maybe move a few rooms at some kind of cost. Having to decide whether it's worth putting yourself close to death if moving a bit over would keep you further from mortal danger and having to consider if the immense risk is worth the payoff. I love this and think it absolutely fits the theme of a permadeath RPG.
Waying for help is also nice because it forces players who would otherwise completely avoid putting their characters situations in which they are at the mercy of other characters (including those they are closest or trust the most).
I'm fine with the current system being as "waity" as it is now although I think giving near death players more options for gameplay other than dreaming of their own downfall would be a good idea.
double edit: I have no clue how fast/slow people in minus hp heal after being bandaged but I'd hope its no longer than ten minutes/one zalanthan hour akin to passing. Maybe even after a successful enough bandage attempt is made the player just instantly goes to 1hp and then is either unconscious or maybe awake and only able to speak and emote but unable to walk and also autofail any subdue attempts.
Quote from: Lotion on August 23, 2020, 06:48:03 AM
Quit die is always an option. If a player chooses to sit and wait for two hours watching a number dance between zero and negative whatever then that's their choice. If you wanted to get back to 1hp faster then you should have considered having more endurance.
Of course a lot of folks are saying quit die are sufficient, but I like the note on endurance here. People often joke about making endurance a dump stat. Maybe don't.
A lot of stuff in this game can take an inordinately long amount of time. Example: an elf trying to kill a thing in melee. Sort of joking but also not; someone once joked about a single fight taking an entire IG day or 90 minutes for an elf, and it's true, it happens. There have been some elf battles I've been through that have run so long I've just had to cut my losses and flee. And that's fine and in character, elves like running right? L-mao. If you pick endurance as your dump stat, you might have to cut your losses and quit die, and that's fine and in character too.
Quote from: triste on August 23, 2020, 10:26:48 AM
Of course a lot of folks are saying quit die are sufficient, but I like the note on endurance here. People often joke about making endurance a dump stat. Maybe don't.
I've played a character that had very high endurance recently and was at negative hitpoints while bloodburned and got back in a matter of minutes. Endurance is
really good.
Quote from: Lotion on August 23, 2020, 10:35:16 AM
Quote from: triste on August 23, 2020, 10:26:48 AM
Of course a lot of folks are saying quit die are sufficient, but I like the note on endurance here. People often joke about making endurance a dump stat. Maybe don't.
I've played a character that had very high endurance recently and was at negative hitpoints while bloodburned and got back in a matter of minutes. Endurance is really good.
Yes it's underrated and leads to interesting RP scenarios, good data point thanks.
yes
Yes lower the timer - If bandaged.
Otherwise I'm personally okay with the timer. It gives lots of time to role play a situation out, because it takes time to emote and talk, and act. It gives time to give PC death a little more meaning.
Would it make sense if someone classified as link dead/idle during recovery was logged out automatically IF they recover to 1hp? Then it's not OOC if you live, but die anyway, because it's been two hours and you had to go to work or pick up your kids or something?
It still leaves that tension, am I going to be dead when I get back or wake up with 1hp and can roleplay my survival attempt? Stay tuned.
Just an idea for a workaround.
Quote from: HortaCulture on August 23, 2020, 11:37:44 AM
Yes lower the timer - If bandaged.
Otherwise I'm personally okay with the timer. It gives lots of time to role play a situation out, because it takes time to emote and talk, and act. It gives time to give PC death a little more meaning.
Would it make sense if someone classified as link dead/idle during recovery was logged out automatically IF they recover to 1hp? Then it's not OOC if you live, but die anyway, because it's been two hours and you had to go to work or pick up your kids or something?
It still leaves that tension, am I going to be dead when I get back or wake up with 1hp and can roleplay my survival attempt? Stay tuned.
Just an idea for a workaround.
Just like
quit die is the existing mechanism to speed up your death if you want,
quit ooc is the existing mechanism for this circumstance of "having to go to work or pick up your kids," and ideally it should work in every circumstance including this one.
The options really are:
1. quit die
2. Idle on mobile
So for those weighing in, the majority I'm seeing is:
A) Leave it as is
With a touch of
B) Add difference of time if bandaged.
Seems about right.
Time to find the person, plenty of time for RP but with medical attention they should be 'back up' within a shorter period of time.
Quote from: Shabago on August 31, 2020, 05:48:47 PM
So for those weighing in, the majority I'm seeing is:
A) Leave it as is
With a touch of
B) Add difference of time if bandaged.
My personal opinion? People should 'never' die when at negative hp. They might be failing rolls and go down the scale, and then back up, and if it takes long enough they should quit die. But in my personal opinion, there is literally 'no' gain to the storytelling, plots, or sheer sense of fun to be dying when at neg hp.
If someone puts you down to neg hp and they want you to die, then they'll finish you off. But if you're allowed to remain, or go down to other reasons, then you should recover. Even if it hours upon hours upon hours for you to do it.
So allow rolling to go up and down between -9 and 0. But never going to the final -10 without outside work. Be it a critter, or a humonoid. PC, or NPC. But otherwise, people should linger on to either eventually managing to scrape back to life, or linger along until someone finds you and helps/finishes you. Which will only improve the story, never damage it.
While I'm certainly a "realism" advocate, sometimes to the detriment of gaming, I agree with Dar about not dying if you're not finished off at negative HP. However, I also think if you're recovering from dying, you should have severe penalties to all of your stats, recovering them over the course of time. Forget the "I roleplay this" bit ... you can roleplay what's actually happening.
But, I mean, I dunno. I am fine no matter what happens.
Id be all for negatives coming with a huge penalty after, make it similar to poison code. Your max hp drops to like 10 and over time it comes back up, echoes to the effect of: "You regain a bit of your usual vigor as your body heals."
Eventually you will be starving or dehydrated and will die.
Bandaging someone already means that they will not bleed out and they will regenerate faster. I would suggest using the highest quality bandage you have available, not some scrap.
Expending the body resources as it clings to life and dying from thirst sounds very reasonable. In general I'm all against neg hp causing death and all for having neg hp take a long time to recover from and cause consequences of.
I believe leave it but make it so bandage gives HP back again maybe 10-15 HP if at master with a good bandage?
I think the main issue that I see being brought up but not really discussed, is it sounds like the crit time as it is now, gives a huge bonus to players that have not time restrictions.
And I think that's not really a good thing. People that have more time to play, having the benefit of being much more likely to heal / get saved. It's a huge IC boon (your character stays alive) for an OOC reason.
Quote from: creeper386 on October 27, 2020, 03:16:10 PM
I think the main issue that I see being brought up but not really discussed, is it sounds like the crit time as it is now, gives a huge bonus to players that have not time restrictions.
And I think that's not really a good thing. People that have more time to play, having the benefit of being much more likely to heal / get saved. It's a huge IC boon (your character stays alive) for an OOC reason.
Admitting that I've given up sleep and contact with friends/family and been late to work because of this game (more than once because of the argument under discussion), I don't see this as a "if you have more time to play" issue.
We all log in with a certain amount of time available to us due to real life commitments/needs/wants. But when something happens (this could be character at negative HP or a fantastic interaction or a sudden exciting event or a dozen other things), many of us take the extra time and make sacrifices in the rest of our lives. At least I do.
On topic: Leave it as it is. I was strongly of the opinion that it should be reduced prior to reading the thread. But have been convinced otherwise.
Side note: Glad to see this one resurrected. And...you know who you are who dragged my -ve HP char through the thorns and killed her.
Edited to answer the question asked.
I'd like to see negative hp leave you incapacitated but conscious while you wait it out. You still might bleed out, might not, but you're able to talk and psi. Cool rescue scenarios, fun for villains revealing diabolical plans before dealing a death blow, all around more fun than the current loss of consciousness.
I would love to leave a PC incapacitated, and then wait for their friends to come rescue them while they wayed and screamed for help😈.
Being a rescuer could be fun too, I guess.
I don't think bandage works properly on critically wounded targets. Even in the best scenario of master bandage skill, a masterwork bandage and assess showing a masterfully applied bandage, no recovery seems to occur at all. Target in the scenario in question was a city elf, but still struck me as inappropriate. In any case, it is an effective nerf from how bandage worked before. Bandage does REALLY well now when you aren't critical.
Quote from: Harmless on October 27, 2020, 08:37:12 PM
I don't think bandage works properly on critically wounded targets. Even in the best scenario of master bandage skill, a masterwork bandage and assess showing a masterfully applied bandage, no recovery seems to occur at all. Target in the scenario in question was a city elf, but still struck me as inappropriate. In any case, it is an effective nerf from how bandage worked before. Bandage does REALLY well now when you aren't critical.
I've bandaged someone that was critically wounded to the point where they woke up very quickly. I used the best 'bandage item' I know about, but still, it worked nicely.
Quote from: roughneck on October 27, 2020, 05:10:34 PM
I'd like to see negative hp leave you incapacitated but conscious while you wait it out. You still might bleed out, might not, but you're able to talk and psi. Cool rescue scenarios, fun for villains revealing diabolical plans before dealing a death blow, all around more fun than the current loss of consciousness.
I would love to leave a PC incapacitated, and then wait for their friends to come rescue them while they wayed and screamed for help😈.
Being a rescuer could be fun too, I guess.
Yeah, I actually do this when I DM D&D. During that period of time you're making death saves, you can communicate with people up to five feet from you, and with a Con check of 20, you can either move 5 feet or take an bonus action. If you are struck again while in that 0 hp state, you are no longer conscious, even if you aren't yet actually dead.
I'm in the leave it as is opinion.
Quote from: Harmless on October 27, 2020, 08:37:12 PM
I don't think bandage works properly on critically wounded targets. Even in the best scenario of master bandage skill, a masterwork bandage and assess showing a masterfully applied bandage, no recovery seems to occur at all. Target in the scenario in question was a city elf, but still struck me as inappropriate. In any case, it is an effective nerf from how bandage worked before. Bandage does REALLY well now when you aren't critical.
It sounds like it was an NPC, which behave differently than PCs.
NPCs in the crit zone will just sit there for ingame days.
NPCs outside of the crit zone will heal to full health in the time it takes to reload a crossbow even if they were at 1hp :(
Let us masochists indulge
Quote from: Jarvis on November 20, 2020, 09:51:58 AM
Let us masochists indulge
Sure, but forcing everyone to go through it seems a bit sadistic.
One annoying part of being in critical is that you are basically forced to just hit enter to see your prompt update and check how you're doing in the negative hitpoints department. It would be nice if every time the change the MUD sent some kind of echo even if it is just a blank line so that the prompt automatically gets shown.
If you type [info], it'll activate infobar that echoes change in your HP, stamina, mana, stun