Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: ShaLeah on March 05, 2018, 02:24:51 PM

Title: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: ShaLeah on March 05, 2018, 02:24:51 PM
Been thinking about this for a lonnnnnnnnng time. Long time.

Sometimes you think you know who's responsible for your demise and why. One thing I have learned is that usually I've been wrong about who it was and why. Others I've talked to have been wrong too. Details matter I think. Sometimes things don't make any sense or it's without any in character justification and it leaves a badddddddddd taste in players mouths. Cue Rage Quit.


I propose having closure reports. In a completely voluntary way when someone is murdered you approach murderer and ask if they want to give the details of the murder to the victim. It could be Lord Fancypants hired me to murder him because of that time you ate his leftovers or you kanked my mate or I'm playing a complete psychopath.

You can then give the player the option to see the Closure or not and if the culprit has chosen NOT to give you closure then you're shit out of luck.

The thing is that the truth never matters IN GAME, but it matters in RL. NOT knowing and the speculation that happens post murder can be grueling. Especially if the betrayal is so good that you're clueless who did it. Unfortunately we've lost some people to this.

APMs are awesome for closure. You hear things others were feeling and it can take the salt off a wound.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: 650Booger on March 05, 2018, 02:32:06 PM
if I ever killed someone, I'd be down to submit one
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: nauta on March 05, 2018, 02:37:47 PM
I like the general contours of the idea --- one of my first reports was, in fact, asking staff if I could know why a previous PC was killed.  However, the devil will be in the details here, and I think there's a more general 'worry' about a closure system.  So detail first:

1. Will the information be released after a year has passed?  Even if so, it might still alleviate rage quit, since you could know in principle, but I suspect the raw feel that you get after a death will linger.  If not, how can we make it so that IC sensitive information is not given out?  I could see these being scrubbed like kudos are scrubbed, but then they might not be really informative.  Your example, for instance, about Lord Fancypants and so on, would not be something I'd feel comfortable leaving the IC world until at least a year has passed.

2. The more general point: One thing that both sucks and is awesome about Armageddon is that it is permadeath and perspectival: you don't know everything (the stats, the world, etc.)  Your world could come to an end, and you might never know the end of your story.  Would closure actually be a good thing to have?  Or would we lose some ineffable bit of the magick of the ArmageddonMUD experience by offering it?  I don't have an answer to this, but it is worth thinking about, I think.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Decadent Decisions on March 05, 2018, 02:44:12 PM
I like the idea in theory a lot. There's a certain longing at times to know why things happened how they did, and under what circumstances you really met your end. I think the theory is fantastic, but the practice of trying to do this would be really tough. As much as some people are fantastic at RP and they understand the game, and they play like a storyteller -- even as far as to make villains or good guys, or everywhere in between, some people are new. Some people aren't that great at the separation of IC and OOC. Much of Arm's secrecy and rules as much protects from and protects these people, I think. Knowing you died over having stepped on the wrong person's coat tails once isn't going to go over well with them and may push off people. In many ways, I think Arm's rules coddles these newer people until they 'get' Armageddon. That's just me.

If there was a time limit (say a month or three or more) on this and staff were willing, I'd totally be behind it.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Eyeball on March 05, 2018, 03:51:56 PM
I'd like to see people be able to flag their bio entries as public or private. Even when flagged public, they wouldn't be visible before a set interval had elapsed (e.g. 2 real years following death or storage).
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Lizzie on March 05, 2018, 05:13:01 PM
Downside to this: a whole lot of paperwork for staff.
Why: hypothetical example.

Lord Amos hired the Guild to assassinate Lady Talia's aide, Kakekikoku because of reason #1.
Lady Talia also hired the Guild to ensure that her aide had an accident in the city, and not in the estate, for reason #2.
The Guild boss sent two of his henchmen to handle it. It got handled.

It's two RL years later and:

ONE of the henchmen is still alive in the game.
Lady Talia is still alive in the game.
No one else that Kakekikoku knew, or knew about, or had even heard rumors about when she was still alive, is still alive in the game. They're all either dead or long-ago stored.

Because the above hypothetical is still very much possible (and I've actually experienced it, as player of an assassinated character), the staff would have to reject a request for closure.

Sadly - there are also players who would see "because some people are still around in the game" and know damned well that this could only mean Talia done it. She might even know why. Or she might not know why, and just knowing that "Talia done it" might cause the player some serious awkwardness when playing in Allanak again, since Talia's still around. It might prevent her from playing in Talia's clan. It might do any number of things, actually. But then you also can't just tell the player Talia done it, for reason #2, because - Talia's still alive, and that's against the rules. Even two years later.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Miradus on March 05, 2018, 05:27:14 PM
You often hear about it second hand if you play in an area with a new character later.

But I'd say realistically that I don't think a lot of people are walking away from the game because they got killed by another player. Of the people I know who have walked away, they did so because the game mechanics were problematic, staff was rude to them, or the people they encountered in the game sucked to roleplay with.

ETA: Let me also add that there's SO much ooc flying around this game that you're pretty much going to find out what's going on with your murder unless you're a hermit player (like I often am). We can pretend that's not happening, but I've had people Way-dancing in my head far too much to believe it. Anyone who has played a public raider knows this. Oh, it's dawn? Watch as 15 people contact you and withdraw without saying a word, just to check and see if you're online and whether it's safe enough to greb outside the gate.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Hauwke on March 05, 2018, 05:36:15 PM
Quote from: Lizzie link=topic=53517.msg1007850#msg1007850

Sadly - there are also players who would see "because some people are still around in the game" and know damned well that this could only mean Talia done it. She might even know why. Or she might not know why, and just knowing that "Talia done it" might cause the player some serious awkwardness when playing in Allanak again, since Talia's still around. It might prevent her from playing in Talia's clan. It might do any number of things, actually. But then you also can't just tell the player Talia done it, for reason #2, because - Talia's still alive, and that's against the rules. Even two years later.


I would say that conversely, if you cant handle that information, ie. Knowing the guy who killed you is still alive and you cant play around or even nearby them, then you simply do not deserve the information because you cant seperate OOC and IC.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: sleepyhead on March 05, 2018, 05:44:51 PM
Watch as 15 people contact you and withdraw without saying a word, just to check and see if you're online and whether it's safe enough to greb outside the gate.

Okay so I can't account for the other 14 people, but I know that I have a bad habit of contacting someone, second-guessing myself once I actually get hold of them, and then withdrawing. I've been sitting with someone and thought of telling them something via the way, contacting them, and then thinking better of it, and heard them assume out loud that it was a "hooded head-tap," as they called it. Misdirected contacts are also a thing.

I'm sure some incidents of this are very shady, and if you're getting more as a raider that's fishy as hell, but there are other reasons for it too!
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Miradus on March 05, 2018, 05:50:09 PM
Yeah, I do it on accident too. Some of it is just bad luck in your character description. (Oh, you have a keyword in your sdesc that's the same as a very popular Salarri merchant? You're screwed.)

But I think we all know what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Eyeball on March 05, 2018, 07:46:04 PM
I wonder whether the staff collects statistics on character life spans. I'd like to see a graph.

Probably the number of characters with game spans that exceed two real years is minuscule. In any case, such data could be used to select a reasonable interval before bio entries flagged as 'public' become available. Even five years would work, a lot of players hang around longer than then (on and off).
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Sorry on March 06, 2018, 09:44:11 AM
Grey areas like that should probably have some clarification so that everyone is on the same page, there's a few things like that where looking at things from one perspective of how things are IC, they can make no sense, whereas if from another, due to the game mechanics, it can seem acceptable to some at the same time and there's no clear ruling - there's a lot of ways to look at stuff and unfortunately seems to mostly depend on individual players' head canons of stuff at the moment - I think we need more lore on the way/help file, for all the common subjects of dispute, so that everyone can be on the same level really
(This is sort of going offtopic to another thread about The Way though, it seems like it keeps coming up and there's no clear direction)

Anyway on the thread... I sort of agree cos I'm pretty sure some newbie players just quit after dying in a lame way to people just killing off characters because they can without any real story to it etc, which seems really sad, I guess statistics would show how common that is, even if just on the staff side, it's probably worth looking at - one thing I noticed from the colour chart thread is that a blind player that posted in it was talking in their last posts about how they get emotional about permadeath in games too much, and then a little after that, they never post again, and can probably guess what happened there (though at the same time if someone genuinely feels like it's too depressing then egging on when don't really want to deal with Tales of Trauma Desert Edition probably isn't the best either, though maybe it can help people deal with death better in real life at the same time, this could actually make an interesting study into if it does have any therapeutic effects - in Arm you have to deal with constant death in a way that most western countries aren't used to dealing with since Victorian times yet is a fact of life for most of the world, and though some countries in particular Russia (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,39200.msg1007636.html#msg1007636) are very Zalanthas in different ways too, a lot of the aspects are also painfully reflected in other countries as well, through a black mirror)

BUT... It really does seem like there is less separation between IC and OOC in Armageddon then there should be for a lot of people, with people participating in conflicts against the same characters onto new characters when it doesn't really seem appropriate due to OOC knowledge - or even on characters that have no role-related motivations as a reason, a bit obviously snubbing characters that were involved in previous character dramas (I've noticed another thing is that there doesn't seem to be any real clear guidance on making characters that act very similarly to previous characters, it sort of breaks immersion for me at times) as well as a kind of Tuluki type thing where it's culturally discouraged to talk about this kind of stuff OOC. But people are human, and not everyone is the same, and I think that's -really- important to understand, that not everyone can compartmentalise to the same extent (though to be fair, for all the potential for problems, it might just help to create some of the best stories as in method acting, when people get into it to that extent - I couldn't and wouldn't say it's entirely a bad thing, I've seen roleplay on other games and there are some seriously DULL people, I love all of you lot and want the best for everyone <3)

APMs are awesome for closure. You hear things
I think that seeing or hearing about close OOC friendships between staff and players can feel a bit exclusionary to newer people who keep to the forum and its rules with time to talking about IC stuff - I remember seeing this come up in a couple reviews as well I think this shouldn't be ignored and it -matters-, everyone should try consider that we are all sort of ambassadors for the game in a way and realise that it gives the impression that people get more leeway than others and that affects new intake of people that we all might otherwise be interested in - I think a lot of people feel more comfortable when things are kept professional, and I seriously appreciate it when staff work hard to maintain that thin blue line that really needs to be there to make it fair for everyone.

At the same time though I think it's really nice for people to talk about how stuff made them feel, the "What happened to (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51481.html)" thread seems brilliant really, and having that kind of knowledge even if it's years later seems really lovely, I think there will always be people willing to contribute at the appropriate times on that thread - as a noob I have to say it's actually really nice to see people who had IC conflicts with their characters chatting away later over how interesting stuff was and I think allays a lot of worries that people might otherwise have, it shows how good the community is really, it's a great advertisement :)
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Feco on March 06, 2018, 10:29:47 AM
I'm sympathetic to this idea, but I really think it's too much paperwork staff-side.

In a perfect world, I'd actually prefer a 15 second "death-cam" or something after you're merked.  We already trust players not to spread OOC knowledge.  15 more seconds of knowledge won't make or break the game.  Again, though, this is probably more code-work than it's worth.

Thankfully we have kudos.  Obviously you can't reveal yourself during the kudos, or give out any IC information, but they're a great thing to send after a PK.  The trick, of course, is not to come off as condescending (e.g., "Hurrr, you did a good job dying nerd").

I very much like the idea of bios being made public, but an automated system is just asking for trouble.  I wish we had someone to take original submission again, though.  Logs and bios are great ways to attract new players.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Insigne on March 06, 2018, 11:09:44 AM
This whole thread reminded me of a post I saw further back. I did a quick search (because only here does keywords like 'rathustra child death' make sense) and managed to dig it up here (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51481.msg962004.html#msg962004):

...

My char had a child with her in her sling who would've suffered the same fate as her mother had he not sent me a log where the child survived, by hanging in the papoose on the edge of a rock. Where he emoted a grebber finding the child and taking her with him. I sometimes still hope seeing this NPC and VNPC in game as a PC :P

While a little further down the thread was the actual log (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51481.msg962045.html#msg962045).

I always thought that was pretty amazing! Just not something that I can easily see staff sustaining for the player base as a whole.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: nauta on March 06, 2018, 11:18:50 AM
Two things we can do as players to make it easier for such reveals down the road (if it ever comes to that):

1. Document the reasoning clearly in the PK Report.

2. Document the reasoning clearly in a BIO entry.

I'd imagine a big reason this would be unfeasible is that staff simply won't be able to know how or why your PC died without grepping logfiles, which from what I hear is a tedious task.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: valeria on March 06, 2018, 11:51:40 AM
I really love this idea for closure. Logistics, waiting a year, trusting players, whatever the solution is to address possible abuse problems, I think it would be worth it.

And people do rage-quit over bad deaths. I almost left the game after the death of my second character, in a fashion that felt seriously crappy to me at the time. The possibility that some day you might know why someone ganked you "for no reason" could alleviate some of the bad feelings that accumulate when those things happen.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Sorry on March 06, 2018, 12:11:51 PM
What could work maybe is that when you make a bio or report like Nauta was describing, maybe a checkbox option with something like "Would you like to share this story with the characters involved after disclosure period has passed (specify names and Sdescs - subject to approval)?"

And could work similar to the what happened to thread, but works even if in a year or two the person forgets about it or is busy/not around to post - maybe it could even autopost even as another option, as long as wider game story stuff/secrets isn't involved, and it's only involving characters that aren't around anymore (though what then happens if there's storylines that go on longer than a real life year, huh)
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Lizzie on March 06, 2018, 12:22:44 PM
What could work maybe is that when you make a bio or report like Nauta was describing, maybe a checkbox option with something like "Would you like to share this story with the characters involved after disclosure period has passed (specify names and Sdescs - subject to approval)?"

And could work similar to the what happened to thread, but works even if in a year or two the person forgets about it or is busy/not around to post - maybe it could even autopost even as another option, as long as wider game story stuff/secrets isn't involved, and it's only involving characters that aren't around anymore (though what then happens if there's storylines that go on longer than a real life year, huh)

Again (and to simplify my concern):

If that death involved more than simply one person killing another -

if it involved an orchestrated plot involving several people - or several orchestrated plots overlapping with each other..
or if it involved people who are still alive, EVEN A YEAR LATER...

then you'd need to get permission from every single player involved, or reject the request because one of the people involved has a character who is still alive (EVEN A YEAR LATER).

The staff shouldn't have to be tasked with all this "paperwork" just so one player can breathe a sigh of relief that there was an actual reason why his character died.

I LOVE learning why my characters are assassinated. But I don't lose sleep over not knowing, and in most cases I either a) already know why because it was pretty obvious ICly or b) I found out 3, 4, even 6 years after the fact. But refusing to ever play again just because I don't know why my character got whacked? That's pretty - weird, to me. It speaks more of the person refusing to ever play again, than it does about whoever killed their character.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: LucildaHunta on March 06, 2018, 12:31:36 PM
I like the idea behind it a lot. I just feel like the potential for abuse is just too great as far as revenge characters go. I’d like to give my fellow players the benefit of the doubt, but I’ve just seen too many instances where that is exactly where that kind of knowledge would lead to.

We have some very intense players.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: MarshallDFX on March 06, 2018, 02:21:09 PM
tldr: we rely on staff for this, I hope they are empowered and encouraged to engage in crisis control with players on a case by case basis.

As a professional cynic, I believe the one year, two year business is contrived and futile (and even harmful) so I'm inclined to ignore that consideration.  I think all the mechanisms already in place are sufficient.  Like most things, it's silence that kills and I figure the best way to handle this is with hip, happening, and active staff.  Maybe it's worthwhile having the staff member dedicated to player retention (or I've heard the term 'player advocate' mentioned before, which could be part of that function).

Just whip people who don't include PK details in character reports.  If staff know (or a player reports) a trusted player is unhappy, communicate.  At their discretion, talk things through.  Retain the player. It will all be case specific.  I'm not going to begrudge staff spilling a few beans to keep good players around. Thinking this is secret anyways is a folie à deux.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: sleepyhead on March 06, 2018, 03:55:14 PM
Many times you know exactly who killed you without any info from staff. There's already plenty of potential for revenge characters. I doubt that letting the players who don't know oocly who killed them know is going to cause a huge spike in ooc vengeance. I don't really want this because I think it's healthiest to just move on rather than dwell and stew over what's in the past, but I don't think the abuse potential is all that much higher than what we already have.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: The Lonely Hunter on March 06, 2018, 06:22:39 PM
No way. Far too much OOC.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Inks on March 06, 2018, 09:37:04 PM
There is too much ooc sharing in our community already. Wait a year.

Also if you are crushed by the death of your PC so much that you are considering ragequit, take a break, you'll be back.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: stark on March 06, 2018, 11:56:17 PM
Seriously, I agree with Inks and others, the less OOC the better.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Miner on March 07, 2018, 01:30:06 AM
.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Dracul on March 07, 2018, 10:25:25 AM
Two thumbs up from me!
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Veselka on March 07, 2018, 12:25:05 PM
Though a well thought out idea, i'm not a fan. The lack of closure from death is part of what is appealing to me about the game. That uncertainty, the not knowing, the reincarnation into a new body with no memory of your 'past lives' if you want to call it that. That mystery of the unknowable is very appealing to me, and part of what makes death so shocking and final. No more information, no explanation. Just like RL.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 07, 2018, 12:42:40 PM
I like to make sure whoever I'm going to PK knows the why of it before it happens. Sure, it significantly reduces my possibility of success, as well as plausible deniability, but I don't like to just ding somebody with no warning, just a personal preference.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: MarshallDFX on March 07, 2018, 02:07:18 PM
There is too much ooc sharing in our community already.

I think that's more or less my point.  Staff are the #1 people who could make a difference with an upset player.  If they are the only ones who rigourously enforce a 'zero ooc' standard, they've just handcuffed themselves.

I think player retention and understanding is a greater good here.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Dar on March 07, 2018, 04:14:49 PM
I'm completely for it. But I'm one of those weird people who thinks that other players will be more then fine playing with me, even if I was the one who killed their previous character two days ago. I still think that. I have faith in humanity! The sheer enjoyment of the game will increase considerably if such a feature was allowed.

At best, if you prefer you can put in a delay depending on karma. 0 karma 1 year delay. 1 karma 6 months delay. 2 karma:3 months. 3 karma:no delay. If a 3 karma player is creating revenge characters, then something is inherently wrong with the whole system.


I truly truly truly think that it should be mandatory "mandatory" to send a PK report for every PK you do, with an explanation on what's going on.  You can make it a matter of having the report separated into two sections.  The PK report and "what would you like us to send to the dead character's player?" And leave it up to the killer to choose what to send and what not to.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 07, 2018, 05:09:38 PM
Why don't PKd people just make a new character, join the clan of their killer, then hit up the player on your instannt messenger of choice to find out why?

/s
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 07, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
More seriously I doubt knowing why you died will help act as a balm. It's usually going to be "because it was easy and solved my problem with you."

You should definitely always find a pk report after a kill. But most reasons are going to be pretty mundane or petty.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: tapas on March 07, 2018, 10:54:23 PM
I get angry when I trust players not to pull weak bullshit and they do it anyways. And I've encountered some exceptionally putrid bullshit from players I expected better from. It's been so bad that it has affected how I play the game and which roles I'm willing to play.

I don't particularly care for whatever ic reasoning they had for it. It's easy to manufacture a reason out of thin air anyways.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 07, 2018, 11:34:36 PM
I get angry when I trust players not to pull weak bullshit and they do it anyways. And I've encountered some exceptionally putrid bullshit from players I expected better from. It's been so bad that it has affected how I play the game and which roles I'm willing to play.

I don't particularly care for whatever ic reasoning they had for it. It's easy to manufacture a reason out of thin air anyways.

... I know that feel.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: tapas on March 07, 2018, 11:45:29 PM
To answer Shaleah directly. It's got nothing to do closure and everything to do with shattered trust.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Feco on March 08, 2018, 07:23:57 AM
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

I've been PKd more than once, without visible emotes to me, after being KOd by something else that didn't kill my PC, which I imagine is the shittiest way to go.  Even that isn't really more awful than a normal character death.  It just isn't immediately satisfying or something.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Narana on March 08, 2018, 09:58:13 AM
There is too much ooc sharing in our community already. Wait a year.

Also if you are crushed by the death of your PC so much that you are considering ragequit, take a break, you'll be back.

I waited a year, then asked. Was basically told 'Sorry admin were not involved with your pc's death'

Was really the last straw for me. Specially since according to the help files everyone has to submit a reason for why they kill someone, either before or after.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Khorm on March 08, 2018, 10:19:59 AM
I think that not being able to figure out the who/why of how my characters died is part of the intrigue of the game. I don't like feeling like I need to be omniscient about details.

Of course it pisses me off sometimes, and I've had instances where it left such a sour taste in my mouth that I left the game for weeks, months, or years. At the end of the day it adds to the mystique of the game, it adds to the story of a character that I did or did not like, and I think it would cheapen the experience of the game if I were to get an email that said, "Amos killed you because he saw you fucking that baby in an alleyway."

Maybe rage quits are not such a bad thing. I generally get pretty invested in my characters after they've gone on for about 10 days worth of play. It's a relationship of sorts, and just like having a shitty breakup - it's probably healthy to take a step back and process the things that are going on. Even closure in that sort of scenario is just a bandaid on a wound that requires staples.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 08, 2018, 12:54:22 PM
There is too much ooc sharing in our community already. Wait a year.

Also if you are crushed by the death of your PC so much that you are considering ragequit, take a break, you'll be back.

I waited a year, then asked. Was basically told 'Sorry admin were not involved with your pc's death'

Was really the last straw for me. Specially since according to the help files everyone has to submit a reason for why they kill someone, either before or after.

That just means you were not killed at admin instigation. Even if they have a PK report detailing why your character was killed they cannot readily share it. It's a confidential communication between a player other than you and staff. That your character is the central subject is beside the point.


Maybe we need a "Why did you kill me?" Thread operating under even more stringent oversight than the "Whatever happened to?" thread. I don't think a lot of you would like what you're going to hear, though.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: MeTekillot on March 08, 2018, 01:23:22 PM
There is too much ooc sharing in our community already. Wait a year.

Also if you are crushed by the death of your PC so much that you are considering ragequit, take a break, you'll be back.

I waited a year, then asked. Was basically told 'Sorry admin were not involved with your pc's death'

Was really the last straw for me. Specially since according to the help files everyone has to submit a reason for why they kill someone, either before or after.
Nah son. You can kill anyone you want, really. I make a point to merc link-dead people with decent gear if they stay out at night. Rules of nature.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: MeTekillot on March 08, 2018, 01:24:16 PM
If you're a sponsored role or have risen to sponsored role influence on the game world, you need to report all your PKs, but you also need to report everything else you do, too.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Fathi on March 08, 2018, 06:40:45 PM
I think if you are feeling that frustrated about a PC's death you should reach out to your staff on an individual basis. I don't really think a blanket policy where this is available for every death is tenable for the reasons other folks have already outlined. It's a neat idea and presented really well, but I'm not sure how much it'd actually help with closure or people quitting.

It really sucks when you lose a PC to something that seems surprising and shitty, we've all been there. But in my personal experience finding out why my PC was killed didn't make me feel any better. I heard the full story on my very next PC when a templar told her all about it. And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Lizzie on March 08, 2018, 10:29:04 PM
I think if you are feeling that frustrated about a PC's death you should reach out to your staff on an individual basis. I don't really think a blanket policy where this is available for every death is tenable for the reasons other folks have already outlined. It's a neat idea and presented really well, but I'm not sure how much it'd actually help with closure or people quitting.

It really sucks when you lose a PC to something that seems surprising and shitty, we've all been there. But in my personal experience finding out why my PC was killed didn't make me feel any better. I heard the full story on my very next PC when a templar told her all about it. And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

Amen.

Finding out why, for me, is something fun after years have passed. But it is never a need. Sometimes I feel a death was ridiculously executed (pun not intended) and I'll send a request to staff asking them to verify that it was kosher. Other than that, I EXPECT my characters to all get killed. I HOPE they'll be assassinated rather than killed by carru #7,492,882. I HOPE I get to see something more entertaining than "the hooded figure brutally wounds you, you black out, and mantishead."  I've experienced some amazingly entertaining deaths, and still didn't know WHY they killed my character til years later.

I also have had some really unimpressive deaths, but knew why, and was fine with the reason, just not thrilled with the methodology.

Regardless, whatever report someone sends to the staff about their actions, is frankly no one else's business. The only thing you "need" to know, if you have a problem with a character death, was whether or not it was a legitimate kill. In other words - it wasn't just a player-griefer action. That's really all you "need" to know. The whys and whos aren't yours to know unless you discover it ICly. If you find out oocly through the grapevine, then you find out. And even then, you only find out whatever someone else chooses to tell you. They might be 100% accurate. They might be leaving something out. They might be lying to you, and their logs might be edited, or so one-sided that they can't even see what "really" happened behind the scenes. But it's not the staff's responsibility to tell you, nor should it be.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Is Friday on March 08, 2018, 11:30:04 PM
I think if you are feeling that frustrated about a PC's death you should reach out to your staff on an individual basis. I don't really think a blanket policy where this is available for every death is tenable for the reasons other folks have already outlined. It's a neat idea and presented really well, but I'm not sure how much it'd actually help with closure or people quitting.

It really sucks when you lose a PC to something that seems surprising and shitty, we've all been there. But in my personal experience finding out why my PC was killed didn't make me feel any better. I heard the full story on my very next PC when a templar told her all about it. And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.
Best Post 2018.

Sig'd.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: tapas on March 09, 2018, 10:23:40 AM
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Riev on March 09, 2018, 10:54:17 AM
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.

I'd think of it more like "I killed them because they were on MY TURF" despite there being NPCs and vNPCs on "their turf" all the time, but they use it as an excuse to end the life of a PC "for funsies".

However. This doesn't happen as often as people seem to suggest. That it does at all, is a travesty, but its not some rampant thing. Sometimes its been good to know why I got PK'd, even if it was for something stupid. Its not about "but they didn't emote so its their fault", its that sometimes I want to know why my ex-Bynner turned Salarri Aide just got one-prompt murdered at the rock-seller shop, after my boss wanted to know the price of granite, despite doing nothing, and it being the middle of the day. Its nice to know that "Well Salarr was refusing to pay powerful people the respect they deserved, and unfortunately you were a piece in that game". It sucks, but at least it wasn't a "hehhahaah I'm such good twinks, this PC knows nothing. backstab huhuhuhuh"
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: tapas on March 09, 2018, 11:16:46 AM
I'd care less about an assassination. It's the "Come here so I can murder you." garbage that I have zero interest in playing around. And just generally sucks the fun out of any social role.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Melkor on March 09, 2018, 12:27:57 PM
I think if you are feeling that frustrated about a PC's death you should reach out to your staff on an individual basis. I don't really think a blanket policy where this is available for every death is tenable for the reasons other folks have already outlined. It's a neat idea and presented really well, but I'm not sure how much it'd actually help with closure or people quitting.

It really sucks when you lose a PC to something that seems surprising and shitty, we've all been there. But in my personal experience finding out why my PC was killed didn't make me feel any better. I heard the full story on my very next PC when a templar told her all about it. And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

This.

I think we should foster emotional maturity amongst the playerbase that can handle the rough times playing this game, rather than emotional dependency.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: MeTekillot on March 09, 2018, 12:39:07 PM
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.
Some players are playing the wrong fucking game, lmao
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Veselka on March 09, 2018, 04:42:38 PM
I think something Players perhaps don't understand sometimes, too, is...When another person finds out you are trying to have them killed, or 'mentioned' to someone else that you would be 'happy to see them dead', well...That other person might be more industrious, know more people, and otherwise more easily take care of you first.

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal -- The last two in particular lead to almost more death than straight Murder. I wouldn't be happy playing this game if that weren't the case. And closure is a fickle friend at best...Sometimes the journey is the most important part, and the 'complete story' on ArmageddonMUD doesn't always count for much.

To me -- It isn't a bad PC death that is going to push a player away from the game. Sure, it might push some away, if not for a while, then I suppose forever. I know a couple where that is the case, they moved on and then just never had the time to think about the game again. Who knows, they may come back in 5-10 years when they have a kid and have downtime (!).

What I see turning players off the most was toxic player/staff relationships, and simply outgrowing the game. The game only offers so much, and it isn't going to be exactly what every Player wants it to be. There will be shortcomings for one person that are strengths to another person. With that inability to mold it into the shape you want it to be...Yeah. After a certain amount of years, a certain amount of guff taken from Staff, a certain amount of this and that...People simply move on, find other hobbies to enjoy, get married, have kids, and have a life without ArmageddonMUD. I think that's perfectly fine.

The Valenkudos is a great way to hook people back in that simply drifted away -- Maybe they're looking for a game and simply forgot about ArmageddonMUD and how much fun it could be. Those kinds of players I think do well here. But the ones that moved on for semi-legitimate reasons? They may never return, and that's okay.

Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Inks on March 11, 2018, 06:11:11 PM
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.

You can't kill me, I'm the main character! Your PC's story maybe important to you, but you are just a footnote in someone else's story to them, or a removable obstacle. If our pcs were literate that is ;)

In almost every case I have rather being PK'd than NPC'd. It stings bad when you are betrayed or murdered or both. That is the nature of the world and what makes the emotions about this evolving story we all write together so powerful.

Zalanthas best.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: tapas on March 11, 2018, 11:21:52 PM
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.

You can't kill me, I'm the main character! Your PC's story maybe important to you, but you are just a footnote in someone else's story to them, or a removable obstacle. If our pcs were literate that is ;)

In almost every case I have rather being PK'd than NPC'd. It stings bad when you are betrayed or murdered or both. That is the nature of the world and what makes the emotions about this evolving story we all write together so powerful.

Zalanthas best.75%

Didn't want to hijack the thread. As I've written about it before.

But no. You can't pull the thriving emotional evolution of storytelling crap when I'm arbitrarily killed by a player who decides they didn't like my roleplay for the nth time. It isn't a unique and personal journey. It's the same fucking thing over and over.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 11, 2018, 11:28:05 PM
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.

You can't kill me, I'm the main character! Your PC's story maybe important to you, but you are just a footnote in someone else's story to them, or a removable obstacle. If our pcs were literate that is ;)

In almost every case I have rather being PK'd than NPC'd. It stings bad when you are betrayed or murdered or both. That is the nature of the world and what makes the emotions about this evolving story we all write together so powerful.

Zalanthas best.75%

Didn't want to hijack the thread. As I've written about it before.

But no. You can't pull the thriving emotional evolution of storytelling crap when I'm arbitrarily killed by a player who decides they didn't like my roleplay for the nth time. It isn't a unique and personal journey. It's the same fucking thing over and over.

I've experienced such a small number of times compared to the number of times I've been legit PKed. If you suspect a particular player is arbitrarily screwing you over for your RP style, it may be best to send in a player complaint, the GDB won't do much good for such grievances.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: tapas on March 11, 2018, 11:32:13 PM
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.

You can't kill me, I'm the main character! Your PC's story maybe important to you, but you are just a footnote in someone else's story to them, or a removable obstacle. If our pcs were literate that is ;)

In almost every case I have rather being PK'd than NPC'd. It stings bad when you are betrayed or murdered or both. That is the nature of the world and what makes the emotions about this evolving story we all write together so powerful.

Zalanthas best.75%

Didn't want to hijack the thread. As I've written about it before.

But no. You can't pull the thriving emotional evolution of storytelling crap when I'm arbitrarily killed by a player who decides they didn't like my roleplay for the nth time. It isn't a unique and personal journey. It's the same fucking thing over and over.

I've experienced such a small number of times compared to the number of times I've been legit PKed. If you suspect a particular player is arbitrarily screwing you over for your RP style, it may be best to send in a player complaint, the GDB won't do much good for such grievances.

It's not something staff would have a problem with. And it's not the same player. What I'm trying to get at is the chronic revolution of disappointment.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 11, 2018, 11:39:39 PM
Oh, trust me, I've been there... not that I've been PKed by them most of the time, just they've tried, and most of the time it wasn't even my RP style, it was only a few times where I felt singled out, by players. By staff on the other hand, well... that's in the past. The thing you have to understand, first off, is everyone in this game is trying to screw you over to varying degrees. Some go too far, by mistake, not realizing how badly the code may respond, others screw you over but not with a ding mantishead, but it can be annoying at times. I've had to learn to enjoy playing the hunted rebel, the antagonist, who really isn't a bad guy, he just has a bad rep.

I know it's frustrating, but the game is meant to be hard and adversarial. If it's not complaint worthy, as in, someone in particular isn't hounding you every step you take that hints at who the player might be, then the only thing for it is to get mean right back, go underground, shape revenge plots.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: tapas on March 11, 2018, 11:51:59 PM
The game mechanics don't lend themselves to any adversarial relationships. Unfortunately if you want to get mean, you need to socially engineer them into a killbox. This is usually how it goes.

I'm generally all for open animosity, assassins and urban warfare. But why do that when you could just invite them over here and lock the door?

Kudos to the players that attempt and succeed though.

---

Anyways, I'm done. Apologies for the derail.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 12, 2018, 12:06:16 AM
It's cool, as a final note of the derail, you don't have to always win. Sometimes, a loss here or there can be fun. Killrooms are far too cliche and boring. Failed broad daylight fueds generate far more interest.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Armageddon Lover on March 12, 2018, 10:48:56 AM
Wrong thread.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Inks on March 14, 2018, 01:31:06 PM
Wow I have never been killroomed. Your pcs must be super obnoxious or just super unlucky getting a bunch of them. But this is completely off topic.

Personally I don't think we need closure request stuff.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Is Friday on March 14, 2018, 01:53:04 PM
Wow I have never been killroomed. Your pcs must be super obnoxious or just super unlucky getting a bunch of them. But this is completely off topic.

Personally I don't think we need closure request stuff.
You're off peak aren't you?
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on March 14, 2018, 04:41:40 PM
Dying is fun!
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 14, 2018, 05:50:24 PM
I've only been lock-roomed killed once or twice. I've actually SEEN it go down more than that, each time, it makes me cringe, thinking of the potential lost, but when it was done it made sense ICly. Person X absolutely must die for Y reasons, fucking it up and letting them get away is not something PCs A, B, or C could ever afford to consider. Therefor, person X finds themselves mobbed in a locked room, and appropriate after-murder cleaning chores and yelling through the door at landlords that, yes, everything is just fine, take place.

There's corruption, blackmail, etc. When a character will not play along, either because principled (In Zalanthas?! HA!) or because the demands of those pushing the plot exceed the potential of the targeted individual to meet (probably has been somehow screwed more than once and can't meet the demands of multiple parties), then things must go the murder route... As players, we can mitigate the latter, and discourage the former, by being sensible in our dealings. If it's not a HUGE thing we can roll the dice and allow an escape avenue, because our PCs really do not care enough to carefully orchestrate a situation where a PC finds themselves, betrayed, in a locked room. If our PCs care too much about a particular trouble being resolved, then it is only IC to pursue the most sure methods for getting a thing done. The short of it is that it's usually the character's actions that put them in the locked room scenario, given that it's a pain in the ass to murder people and get away with it in a clean and sensible matter that leaves your character still able to do business, in other words, to not behave in a suicidal manner.

Every time you murder a PC, you give that PC's friends excuses to form long-standing grudges and cut off potential resources. It's not a proposition to take lightly, if your PC has any concern for their own well-being, which, honestly, some don't, then they will try to find another means of effecting change, because rampant murdering tends to stack up and affect one's ability to earn a living.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Feco on March 14, 2018, 06:07:23 PM
The short of it is that it's usually the character's actions that put them in the locked room scenario, given that it's a pain in the ass to murder people and get away with it in a clean and sensible matter that leaves your character still able to do business, in other words, to not behave in a suicidal manner.

Every time you murder a PC, you give that PC's friends excuses to form long-standing grudges and cut off potential resources. It's not a proposition to take lightly, if your PC has any concern for their own well-being, which, honestly, some don't, then they will try to find another means of effecting change, because rampant murdering tends to stack up and affect one's ability to earn a living.

This is wildly off topic, and has been discussed to death, but I can't help myself.

You're assuming a PC has to give a shit about any of this.  Not every PC does or has to.

If someone is using locked, populated apartments to commit clean, bloodless, soundless murders, they're probably being a lame-ass.  I suspect these are far less common than people think.

If someone is using locked, remote, or closed off rooms to make sure someone gets dead, they're doing just that.  Making sure someone gets dead.  These are probably more common, which isn't surprising.  I'm pretty sure murderers in real life have taken advantage of a locked room a time or two, and for good reason.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 14, 2018, 06:18:48 PM
THIS TRAIN HAS NO BRAKES CHOO CHOOOOO

Reduce or remove crimcode. Bring murder out of the apartments.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Hauwke on March 14, 2018, 06:57:14 PM
I often wish I could smack some sense into folks in the Gaj who are being all Haughty and Badass, but wont stand up and do anything but talk shit. Seriously, its a breed and my guy has ridiculous connections, there is no reason I shouldnt be able to lop its head off and go about my day with a Pissed Off Vennant nagging at me to please put down a tarp next time.

More seriously, crimcode does need some work at some point I think. I hope someone gives it the Meatcraft treatment and makes it amazing, so that we dont need to backroom a guy.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 14, 2018, 07:04:10 PM
If your guy has rediculous connections, couldn't you, you know, frame a dude and make it look totally legit and legal, while washing your hands of the matter?
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 14, 2018, 07:07:53 PM
Not in public.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 14, 2018, 07:21:25 PM
I swear this exact sort of framing thing happened to me once when my Tuluki breed hauled a Borsail Wyvern off a stool and pounded his teeth down his throat, then I got arrested and executed in the arena, good times, and more than warranted given the circumstances. Messing with powerful people like that means you die, I learned. The Templar who made the order sent me kudos, even if my PC was behaving irrationally. That memory is part of why I stuck around, because I could see the people who were killing my PCs had damn good, setting-backed reasons to be doing so.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Refugee on March 14, 2018, 07:23:36 PM
As long as crimcode works in the unrealistic way it does, kill rooms will be the way to get the job done.  Our PCs exist in this crimcode world, they don't think it's odd, they don't think it's unrealistic.  They live in a world too where a guy can just disappear while you're looking at him and talking to him, and where he can walk past three of you threatening him in a small room, open a door and be gone.  That's how it works.  You can say it's lame RP to kill in a locked room but it's lame RP to do these things too.  That's why the kill rooms happen.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Hauwke on March 14, 2018, 07:26:18 PM
It was mostly a hypothetical. But my point was, essentially that you see a guy, everyone appears to love them, no one fucks with them, and the lowest of the low tries to mess with them? Its like playing the ignorance card when a Noble rocks up with 12 guards a 4 story high argosy and a pair of behemoths drawing it, you dont even need to know why you shouldnt fuck with that guy, you should be able to work out that maybe dont do that because survival instincts are a thing.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Veselka on March 14, 2018, 10:33:40 PM
It was mostly a hypothetical. But my point was, essentially that you see a guy, everyone appears to love them, no one fucks with them, and the lowest of the low tries to mess with them? Its like playing the ignorance card when a Noble rocks up with 12 guards a 4 story high argosy and a pair of behemoths drawing it, you dont even need to know why you shouldnt fuck with that guy, you should be able to work out that maybe dont do that because survival instincts are a thing.

As someone who's had a knife pulled on them before in a bar for being a haughty dumbass (IRL), I'd say people in the Gaj would probably be realistically stabbed every day of the week. +1 to removing crime code from majorly populated areas. Have it be localized around patrolling soldiers, and move them away from bars except at certain shifts.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Feco on March 14, 2018, 11:34:30 PM
Or even better, just make them only give a shit about CLSNNED GMH (cause money), soldiers, nobles, and templar.  Fuck everyone else.

This deserves its on thread because it's a really good idea.  WILD WEST THIS SHIT UP!
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Dar on March 14, 2018, 11:57:16 PM
In truth. The Kill Rooms arent really that otherwordly.

I mean, who of us never entered a room that already had plastic spread out for you? Come on now.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: sleepyhead on March 15, 2018, 12:00:06 AM
I'm all for it, but there is always the counterpoint that crimcode gives people a chance to breathe without constantly worrying about being killed. They know they're not *really* safe but it's not constant heart-pounding action like being out in the wilderness. Sometimes you just need to go to the bathroom without being certain you're going to come back to a dead character.

Again, I'm for loosening crimcode, I just empathize with that argument.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Kankfly on March 15, 2018, 12:28:55 AM
I'm going to suggest it here.

What if we had like... a minute delay before sure death?

So for example, you are 100% certainly going to die, but instead of an instant beep and mantishead, there is a minute delay where you get to emote (only emote) out your last dying emote(s), just so you can have some closure on your PC?
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on March 15, 2018, 01:02:07 AM
I like the idea of having an emote time on death.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: tapas on March 15, 2018, 01:50:20 AM
If someone is using locked, remote, or closed off rooms to make sure someone gets dead, they're doing just that.  Making sure someone gets dead.  These are probably more common, which isn't surprising.  I'm pretty sure murderers in real life have taken advantage of a locked room a time or two, and for good reason.

They're making sure that their precious characters face zero risk and zero consequence. That's the honest truth of it. If you just can't bear the risk of hiring an outside assassin or getting a templar intervention to fix your problems, then I can't respect you as player.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Inks on March 15, 2018, 05:14:20 AM

Every time you murder a PC, you give that PC's friends excuses to form long-standing grudges and cut off potential resources. It's not a proposition to take lightly, if your PC has any concern for their own well-being, which, honestly, some don't, then they will try to find another means of effecting change, because rampant murdering tends to stack up and affect one's ability to earn a living.

They're making sure that their precious characters face zero risk and zero consequence. That's the honest truth of it. If you just can't bear the risk of hiring an outside assassin or getting a templar intervention to fix your problems, then I can't respect you as player.

Who cares who you respect as a player? It is part of the game regardless. Not my thing but if people want to trap and murder it is a legitimate strategy (unless they are leaving a rotting corpse in their own apartment, they should be discovered if so and often are discovered doing this.)



There is nothing wrong with stacking odds in your favor, at all (as long as you take the virtual and coded world into account), especially when you aren't playing a tough character and want to remove someone you hate/ a rival. That's betrayal for you. Deal with it.


Zalanthas is a harsh world and survival is more important than honor to the vast majority of its inhabitants
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: tapas on March 15, 2018, 06:17:35 AM
Quote
There is nothing wrong with stacking odds in your favor, at all (as long as you take the virtual and coded world into account), especially when you aren't playing a tough character and want to remove someone you hate/ a rival.

If this were hearthstone, I'd agree with you. But this is a collaborative game that requires trust between players. Yet I'm asked to tolerate the other player taking advantage of that trust and hitting the ez win button.

Quote
Deal with it.

Why should I?
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Inks on March 15, 2018, 06:44:29 AM
Because it is about IC trust not player trust whether someone murderizes you or not. Players aren't required to give you a fighting chance. You need to separate IC/ OOC in your own mind. Unfair executions and murder happen in RL too, in fact the vast majority are unfair with one party having almost no chance almost always. Not really sure what your hangup is, stop seeing it as unfair gameplay and start seeing as a hopeless ic situation.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Lizzie on March 15, 2018, 06:46:18 AM
I'm going to suggest it here.

What if we had like... a minute delay before sure death?

So for example, you are 100% certainly going to die, but instead of an instant beep and mantishead, there is a minute delay where you get to emote (only emote) out your last dying emote(s), just so you can have some closure on your PC?
Because:
>emote asks why u pk him u loser asshole

That's why.

On the other hand, it might be nice if the final death blow was not withheld, but rather, could have an emote built into it, set up in advance by the PKer. So when it does come, the player behind the victim has a *chance* for closure, if the killer feels one is warranted. Example:

think Oh there's victim, up yonder hill 3 rooms. I'm gonna kill him and collect the bounty.
pkscriptend Happy birthday, breed. Your mama said she never did love your daddy.
e;e;e backstab victim

End result:
Bla blah blah you get pked.
>-3 the hooded guy kills you, saying in your language, "Happy birthday, Breed. Your mama said she never did love your daddy."
<mantis>
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: roughneck on March 15, 2018, 06:57:02 AM
I'm going to suggest it here.

What if we had like... a minute delay before sure death?

So for example, you are 100% certainly going to die, but instead of an instant beep and mantishead, there is a minute delay where you get to emote (only emote) out your last dying emote(s), just so you can have some closure on your PC?

I love it. Best roleplay enhancing idea I’ve heard in ages.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Kankfly on March 15, 2018, 08:05:19 AM
If for some reason someone uses emote like that, then I believe that warrants a pcomplaint. Just like with anything else is abused in an absurd and ridiculous way.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Inks on March 15, 2018, 08:13:13 AM
I don't like the minute delay on death, sometimes you want someone dead now not later. Patrols, you need a certain item off them, or somesuch. I like how death in this game can come instantly, like real life. The one min thing seems like a mush thing. I really like Lizzie's idea above, I would like a pkill say that appears on the death email as well as ig as you die. Now that would be amazing.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Kankfly on March 15, 2018, 08:18:03 AM
What difference would it make if they died one min earlier and not one min later? It's a 100% sure death, there's no surviving. it just gives you and the killer time to emote some last stuff.

With death reports it will require more work both on staff side and player side.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: roughneck on March 15, 2018, 09:03:34 AM
I don't like the minute delay on death, sometimes you want someone dead now not later. Patrols, you need a certain item off them, or somesuch. I like how death in this game can come instantly, like real life. The one min thing seems like a mush thing. I really like Lizzie's idea above, I would like a pkill say that appears on the death email as well as ig as you die. Now that would be amazing.

Then have an 'execute' command that will totally finish your victim off, or put your dying buddy out of their misery.

I run into way more situations where I need to kill someone, but would enjoy having the one minute of rp after, than situations where I don't have a minute to spare for some gasping last breath emotes, a villainous rant on my motives, and the extra time of sweet victorious revelry as my opponent bleeds out.

On the dying side, your dying PC gets a chance to tell someone they love them, tell their boss what an asshole they are, and emote your GD heart out like a dying cowboy hero in an old Clint Eastwood movie.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Kankfly on March 15, 2018, 09:15:34 AM
A couple more suggestions:

When the PKed is on the 1-minute (or however long) timer, their things can be taken by the 'steal' command, as if they are an unconscious PC.

During the 1-minute timer, the PKed gets to use 'quit die' if they don't want to act out a scene and just wants to die (for whatever reason).

I kind of like the 'execute' idea, but not -too- on board with it. What if the PKed wants to throw out some emotes but before they can, the PKer uses 'execute'?
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: boog on March 15, 2018, 09:17:45 AM
They're usually dumb reasons.

Most people would not wanna know.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Insigne on March 15, 2018, 09:30:11 AM
+1 to Kankfly's suggestion.

On the dying side, your dying PC gets a chance to tell someone they love them, tell their boss what an asshole they are, and emote your GD heart out like a dying cowboy hero in an old Clint Eastwood movie.
I do like the idea of an incapacitated PC maintaining consciousness for a short time. Maybe during the higher negatives (from 0HP to -5HP, for example). Or as a supplement to Kankfly's 1-min timer suggestion. They're on the verge of death, losing blood and unable to move, but they have a last chance to say something before succumbing to their wounds.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: nauta on March 15, 2018, 09:42:11 AM
I'm going to suggest it here.

What if we had like... a minute delay before sure death?

So for example, you are 100% certainly going to die, but instead of an instant beep and mantishead, there is a minute delay where you get to emote (only emote) out your last dying emote(s), just so you can have some closure on your PC?

In terms of implementation, a not-so-intrusive idea for implementing this would be to change things so that:

1. You don't actually die when you reach -10 hps.

2. You die when you reach -50 hps (or some number).

3. Each 'tick' if you are -11 or below will suck 2-5 hps.

4. If -11 or below, you can't restore hps, period (by magick, or otherwise).  You are dead.  You just haven't left your body yet.

5. During this time you can quit die to actually quit.

It *should* work out to a couple minutes still 'in game' but basically dead, so you can pick up on emotes and so on just like when you are verge of death and all that.

Then at least you can toss out a few blood gurgling emotes --- and yes, emote can be abused, but so what!!! --- and your murderer can toss out a few murdering-you emotes, etc.



Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: sleepyhead on March 15, 2018, 01:10:55 PM
Because:
>emote asks why u pk him u loser asshole

That's why.

People can do that anyway. Many, many times you know you're doomed before the final blow hits. Even if you can't talk, you can often emote, and even if you can't emote, you can ooc. People do this kind of thing sometimes but it's pretty rare and I don't think adding a few seconds onto the end of a pc's life is going to make it all that much worse.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Riev on March 15, 2018, 04:21:46 PM
Just for added discussion:

I once had to kill someone, who was caught sneaking to Undertuluk for "reasons". He was caught going there numerous times. I was playing a Sergeant, and the Templar had enough and said "take care of it". I assumed this meant kill him, but I gave him a chance. When I asked WHY he was going there, he said he never did, and the person reporting it (a loyal Templarate assassin) was a liar.

So at that point, I kind of HAD to. At which point they OOC'd that they had to log off because it was "all too much". When it was explained that it isn't fair that they avoid consequences by trying to quit out, they sent in more OOC complaints about me because they "talked to someone who I'd talked to previously and said I was feeling bored in the role, and obviously I was killing them because I have no imagination".

That player, I believe, still hates and distrusts me.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Inks on March 15, 2018, 04:38:17 PM
That player is awful Riev and it doesn't matter what they think. They want to "win". Rather than realise that we have all died as soon as we create a character. And few pick how that story ends.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Veselka on March 15, 2018, 05:03:43 PM
I'd be cool with a death emote. Especially with a prompt like.

You begin to slip into death's cold embrace.
(You may perform a final emote action).
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 15, 2018, 06:13:57 PM
I once killed an elf because he wouldn't follow orders and his last words were "OOC: this is some bullshit"

I still laugh thinking about it.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: James de Monet on March 15, 2018, 06:38:30 PM
I’m crazy on board with a minute for death scenes.

The issue I see is that this probably would not be easy to code, give that death is a calculated event, with built in ersatz timers and limits and reversibility already, that would all need to be modified.

Also, you have to imagine that you won’t get the best RP from people who are dying, because the player IRL has adrenaline pumping through their veins, without the pain, dissociation, or lapsing consciousness of someone actually dying.  Better to get misspelled, slightly off-character death emotes off than no emotes, though.  I think you’d have to prevent them from using the Way, otherwise every person murdered would have the opportunity to tell people who killed them.  Probably prevent them from moving also.  I’d say just make them unconscious, but then they couldn’t look into the eyes of their killer, which would be a mixed benefit and problem (can’t spill IC information you don’t have, but sometimes knowing who killed you is key to understanding the reason.)

I think the benefits way outweigh the risks of twinkish misuse or less than ideal realization.  Also, even just getting to fire off an emote or two immediately puts power put back into the hands of those who just had it taken away.  This might help alleviate feelings of being ‘cheated’ by death, and allow players to end their stories in character, if not as they imagined.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Inky on March 21, 2018, 04:22:06 AM
Nevermind.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 21, 2018, 06:29:13 PM
It's one of the reasons I like to keep mercy on, at least as far as kill is concerned. If you don't utterly splatter the PC sometimes you give them the chance at just this idea... not that I go around killing a lot of people...
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: yousuff on March 21, 2018, 09:31:55 PM
I once killed an elf because he wouldn't follow orders and his last words were "OOC: this is some bullshit"

I still laugh thinking about it.
You may have gotten me in my early days ::)
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Delirium on March 21, 2018, 09:36:35 PM
It's one of the reasons I like to keep mercy on, at least as far as kill is concerned. If you don't utterly splatter the PC sometimes you give them the chance at just this idea... not that I go around killing a lot of people...

Yep, this. Though sometimes I hit too hard and mercy doesn't work, but in general it's a good way to at least offer them a final emote and give them a chance at one too.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Grapes on March 22, 2018, 02:03:29 AM
It's one of the reasons I like to keep mercy on, at least as far as kill is concerned. If you don't utterly splatter the PC sometimes you give them the chance at just this idea... not that I go around killing a lot of people...

Yep, this. Though sometimes I hit too hard and mercy doesn't work, but in general it's a good way to at least offer them a final emote and give them a chance at one too.

but wate if mercy off den hit harder! YARG, SMASH! Rough circle. (no, I don't think you really hit harder with mercy off, you just look like a douche)
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: MeTekillot on March 22, 2018, 08:14:06 PM
Can you still whisper to mortal people and they hear it? Or maybe just one-liner why you're killing them.

"Lord Oash says hello, and also, time's up!"
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: The Lonely Hunter on March 22, 2018, 10:08:56 PM
Some players are playing the wrong fucking game, lmao
[/quote]

I agree. People are feeling too entitled and expect to be coddled. There are not participation trophies in Arm...at least there aren't supposed to be. Suck it up. This IS Armageddon.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Mr.B on March 22, 2018, 10:40:02 PM
If you're upset that you were PK'd and didn't get the closure you feel you deserve then congratulations, you are probably pretty normal. Armageddon is one of those few games that can really provoke strong emotions and that's a credit to the way the game is structured and it's players. The easiest way to begin making a change is to make sure you roll around with mercy on and give that courtesy to your fellow players. Unless of course, you're Delirium. In which case you've all fallen for the ruse and are blaming mercy instead of the true intent to kill just as planned.  :P
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: MeTekillot on March 23, 2018, 03:46:30 PM
Make someone 'dead' and unrevivable by anything but powerful magicks for five minutes after they die and let people communicate with the corpse.
Title: Re: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.
Post by: Potaje on April 27, 2018, 02:00:14 AM
I once played a rinthi named Ervyn, who trough deformity due to a wound in the face always emoted slurping especially when carrying on a conversation. This was I think 3 years ago and I have always wondered why he was killed and by who. it took them forever to do it and there was very little conversation, but some and no hint as to who they where or why they were doing it. Not that I did not figure I earned it as that character really rose in the Guild.  He was a fun bastard, prone to some evil dealings but always with a reason.  I wonder if the player that killed him is still around and would post here why just because I really would like to know.