Armageddon General Discussion Board

This has just bothered me since I started playing.

You get a piece of hide from something. The hide vendor says, "Oh, wow! That's awesome! I'll give you 50 sid for it."

But hey, you're a crafter, so you can do something with that hide. Add some value.

You craft it into a sturdy piece of armor and take it over to the armor vendor who says, "I'll give you 17 sid for it."

That tanned, supple hide can be ANYTHING! I'll give you 50 coins for it!

That armor is useful in one limited situation, and isn't very good at it. I'll give you 20.


That's how I've always justified it. I remember a time when providing RAW hides to crafters was more lucrative than tanning them so they could make armor, because the VALUE was in working the tanning skill, not in creating the armor itself. Raw gortok hide would go for like 10 coins a piece, but tanned was less sought after.


Though I do agree, in a general sense, that a base ingredient should not be valued at more than the final product. When we custom craft, we have to come up with the 'value' of the craft ourselves, based on the value of the items. No way am I putting in 200 coins worth of items and NOT setting the value to at least 250 (and even then, with the economy, that should PROBABLY be more like 350)

Yeah, that's a World of Warcraft economy where everyone values the raw goods more for their skill-up potential.

It's broken. It's twinky. It's why hunting group PC clans spring up and new merchant PC clans do not.

Its not "the" reason. I think Merchant PC clans struggle because unless you're an ESTABLISHED clan, your sword is no better than the sword some 5d merchant made. You need custom crafts that are different, unique, and that people perceive are better than THE VORPAL SHARPENED SHARP-SWORD.

Most players don't care about your new design of woodwork. Most barely care that you made a fancy new sword because its not a Salarri sword. People like PC Merchants because of the ability to Custom Craft without needing to BE a Merchant. Cheap resources can be turned into arms and armor that sell like hotcakes to vendors, but PCs OFTEN trend towards the same 4-5 sets of what is available.

I don't think that the NPC economy is to blame for THAT. I think the economical issues surrounding ingredients -> full recipes worth discussing but I don't think its why merchant PC clans don't spring up.

Merchant PC clans don't spring up because the GMH have nearly every viable market cornered.

What really irks me is when this happens with food, too. In those rare instances where a raw piece of meat sells for like 100 coins, but you cook it and its worth 40. Seems suspect. Or when a recipe requires 3 items, which even with a Merchant's Haggle costs, lets say, 60 coins. You make the item, and with that master haggle, you MIGHT sell it for 50.

It makes some of the more interesting crafts kind of.. useless. Especially when SOME crafting ingredients are NPC-purchased only.

I haven't really paid attention, but here's a question:

1. Is the current system (where the raw good is more expensive than the product constituted exhaustively by it) the intended system?

I'm no economist but if the raw good is constituted exhaustively by the product, then value has been added to it, so the product should be worth more than the raw good alone.  (See Marx, Das Kapital, ch. 2, or Communism for Kids, chs. 5-6.)

However, there may be gameplay reasons for the current system.

In any case, if it is not intentional, then we could just flag cases where the raw good is more expensive than the product made from it.

Just to be clear, a hide that makes seven cloaks should be worth less than those seven cloaks, because each cloak is worth 1/7 of the hide plus labor.

I think part of the problem is this:
You are carrying a big honking mek-horn.
Craft horn into needle.
You make a single hair needle from a big honking mek-horn.

Same with many skins, shells, etc.

Where I -don't- see a problem with the current system:
You are carrying a huge heavy tent-sized sheet of mekillot hide.
Being the only thing your noob-butt is capable of, you create a pair of gloves form a huge heavy tent-sized sheet of mekillot hide.
As long as at mater level armorcrafting, you can create five pair of the same gloves, it's all good.

This also comes back around to where someone and I were discussing the bandage code the other day and were talking about the crafting code.  MOST of the time, instead of getting nothing from a crafting attempt, you should get a low-quality generic item instead of the nice one you wanted.

>craft hide into a few pair of knuckle-spiked mekillot-hide gloves.
Having smoked too much tho', you craft a few pair of brown leather gloves from your heavy tent-sized sheet of mekillot hide.

Eve Online crafting versus Star Wars Galaxies crafting.

SWG had an amazing crafting system where the quality of the materials helped to influence the final product, plus the skill of the crafter. The best crafters would then compete for the highest quality of materials and the consumers would then pay for the highest quality weapons and armor (or other items). Because the spawned materials were sort of randomly weighted, you'd only get the best quality materials occasionally and usually on one of the high tier planets where it was hard to get to. Which made your legendary weapon actually legendary.

Eve Online, materials may be difficult to get (at times) but every item produced is exactly the same as every other item. Nothing you make is better than anyone else's. All you compete on is the price.

I feel like the crafting/economic side needs as big of an overhaul as the guild system.

It's definitely a case of three systems (crafting : skinning/foraging : NPC merchants) that don't match up well.  Much of this is rooted in how the value of items are determined (primarily by a staff member setting a raw number on the item, say, 100 coins).  Although that base value is further modified by a long list of other criteria it is still the primary driver of the value.

Over the years/decades, the perceived value, from staff, on what something is worth has shifted around a lot.  It's unrealistic to expect someone setting out to make a cloak to have a comprehensive knowledge of item values across the entire object database.

Ideally we would move to a system where values are determined largely dynamically, with only a small amount of nudging available to staff, where justified.  Material, quality, size, type (weapon, armor, clothing, food, etc...) being used to calculate a cost.  From there the code could factor, based on type, whether this is a raw or finished good, for example.

With regards to crafting having odd associations between the size of the raw good vs finished good, it's sort of the same story.  There was a long period where we were pushing to have all raw goods be useful for something - and have all finished goods be made from something.  Our results may have been imperfect, but they did greatly expand the worth, to player characters, of many items in the game.

This is another instance of where a static system was fine in the past, but a dynamic one would be desirable int he future.  Such as minor failures in crafting not resulting in 'failure' items, but in a success item that is in a poor state of repair.  While you successfully made the gloves you wanted, they're in need of a visit to the tailor/armorer to be repaired.    Or ingredients for making gloves being something loosely defined such as 'anything that is material leather, item type raw, with at least 10 size points left', which then consumes 10 size points when used as a source.

Absolutely I like that.

I feel like the current system is the "old way" across most muds which have crafting, and what we're talking about here (including you, Nessalin) is the "new way".

It's a big undertaking, I think and I can see where there would be a lot of work in it. But you'd have something unique in the mud world that nobody else seems to have.

Quote from: nessalin on June 28, 2017, 01:18:39 PM
It's definitely a case of three systems (crafting : skinning/foraging : NPC merchants) that don't match up well.  Much of this is rooted in how the value of items are determined (primarily by a staff member setting a raw number on the item, say, 100 coins).  Although that base value is further modified by a long list of other criteria it is still the primary driver of the value.

Over the years/decades, the perceived value, from staff, on what something is worth has shifted around a lot.  It's unrealistic to expect someone setting out to make a cloak to have a comprehensive knowledge of item values across the entire object database.

Ideally we would move to a system where values are determined largely dynamically, with only a small amount of nudging available to staff, where justified.  Material, quality, size, type (weapon, armor, clothing, food, etc...) being used to calculate a cost.  From there the code could factor, based on type, whether this is a raw or finished good, for example.

With regards to crafting having odd associations between the size of the raw good vs finished good, it's sort of the same story.  There was a long period where we were pushing to have all raw goods be useful for something - and have all finished goods be made from something.  Our results may have been imperfect, but they did greatly expand the worth, to player characters, of many items in the game.

This is another instance of where a static system was fine in the past, but a dynamic one would be desirable int he future.  Such as minor failures in crafting not resulting in 'failure' items, but in a success item that is in a poor state of repair.  While you successfully made the gloves you wanted, they're in need of a visit to the tailor/armorer to be repaired.    Or ingredients for making gloves being something loosely defined such as 'anything that is material leather, item type raw, with at least 10 size points left', which then consumes 10 size points when used as a source.

*like*

There's a lot of it that doesn't make sense and is unfair to the player. I'm not trying to suggest it should stay that way but the flip side is that some of the nonsensical aspects of NPC merchants are unfair in favor of the player and if you know what you're doing you can become extremely wealthy. As a result you hear outrageous statements that should never exist in a harsh desert world, like "I'm not looking for work right now, I just want to take it easy for a while" or "I'm going to take some time off and do some traveling".

Quote from: ghanima on June 29, 2017, 06:18:21 AM
There's a lot of it that doesn't make sense and is unfair to the player. I'm not trying to suggest it should stay that way but the flip side is that some of the nonsensical aspects of NPC merchants are unfair in favor of the player and if you know what you're doing you can become extremely wealthy. As a result you hear outrageous statements that should never exist in a harsh desert world, like "I'm not looking for work right now, I just want to take it easy for a while" or "I'm going to take some time off and do some traveling".

Yes.  Plenty of non-realistic things go on to keep the game playable while others are there to (try and) shape how players run their characters.  A good point to make, thanks.

Quote from: ghanima on June 29, 2017, 06:18:21 AM
As a result you hear outrageous statements that should never exist in a harsh desert world, like "I'm not looking for work right now, I just want to take it easy for a while" or "I'm going to take some time off and do some traveling".

I don't think I've ever heard someone say this sort of thing, unless they were providing a reason why they were going to be away for awhile.

Quote from: ghanima on June 29, 2017, 06:18:21 AM
There's a lot of it that doesn't make sense and is unfair to the player. I'm not trying to suggest it should stay that way but the flip side is that some of the nonsensical aspects of NPC merchants are unfair in favor of the player and if you know what you're doing you can become extremely wealthy. As a result you hear outrageous statements that should never exist in a harsh desert world, like "I'm not looking for work right now, I just want to take it easy for a while" or "I'm going to take some time off and do some traveling".

The alternative to what you see as the problem would be players being forced into clans they don't want to play in (or any clan when they don't want to deal with the restrictions/drama that comes with clanned PCs). I've stored two characters because leader PCs wouldn't take hints that I didn't want my character in a clan despite it being in his best interest as far as the virtual world is concerned.  This is first and foremost a game and platform for writing for the intent of people enjoying creating stories.  Sometimes the story you want to create is not the status quo.

While we realize there are a lot of issues with the crafting system, at least we don't let people craft fidget spinners.

Quote from: nessalin on June 30, 2017, 10:45:46 AM
While we realize there are a lot of issues with the crafting system, at least we don't let people craft fidget spinners.

sharp chatchka? Or whatever those are? :)

Quote from: nessalin on June 30, 2017, 10:45:46 AM
While we realize there are a lot of issues with the crafting system, at least we don't let people craft fidget spinners.

lol

The emaciated child is here fidget spinning.

anything we can do to combat inflation, and make sids actually scarce, would be good IMHO.  grebbers should not have more access to coins than nobles.

.

Quote from: Molten Heart on June 30, 2017, 12:15:06 PM


I think it's important to not that nobles should have better access to coins than grebbers, allowing non-nobles to have access to coins but having nobles just have more.

agreed, this is how it 'should' be, but in my experience, the nobility have only seldom opportunities to generate coin outside of their stipend/allowance, while a resource gatherer can go and make as much coin as they are motivated to work for.

.

Quote from: Molten Heart on June 30, 2017, 12:34:16 PM
It'd be cool if nobles had something of value to offer grebbers, maybe they could co-op them and get in on their cash flow.

The Northern Partisanship agreement was always a good thing, where hunters could, rather than making endless coin, offer their goods and services to the Nobility. But raw resources were never really something a Noble wanted, and many Merchant-crafters don't particularly seem bent on working for House Tor.

Nobility can always try and co-opt a grebber type, but most Noble's don't have a REASON for their goods, just coin, and its hard to know that the 5000 coins you gave to a noble is even going -to- anything. So on any level, its kind of just as good as junking coins.

.

Noble coin goes farther than grebber coin anyway. A grebber can have 5000 coins sitting around doing nothing, and all they can do is invest in new arms/armor or furniture. In order to do ANYTHING with it, they need Nobility or Templarate backing. And how they're sitting on 5000 coins without being taxed to death by the Templarate is another issue entirely.


Basically, Nobles SHOULD have enough coin to throw more-than-necessary at commoners to get jobs done, but they aren't meant to just be huge banks. When a Noble spends 5000 coins on something, it MEANS something. They might be building, purchasing something for the estate, smoking enough tho to see you all in Drov. A grebber that spends 5000 coins on something probably wanted the Byn to have a fun RPT. :(

.

City of Bones, by Martha Wells (First Chapter Free (http://www.marthawells.com/city.htm)) has a Dark Sun-esque setting.  In it there are two kinds of currency.  One is for the upper class, the other the lower class.  When there's water rationing going on only those with upper class currency can buy water, and it is illegal for anyone but the upper class to have that kind of money.  The lower class trades in currency that is backed by tradesman labor the upper class currency is backed in volume of water (at least that's how I remember it).

Having two kinds of currency, and setting up shops so they only accept one type or the other, might encourage working for nobles.  Provided it was legal for non-nobles to use noble currency, but nobles were the only source of getting it.

The fancy shops, good apartments, and so on won't take your commoner coin - no matter how much of it you've got.

An interesting thought to assist with the "your coin doesn't matter as much as their coin" situation. However, we supposedly already have obsidian in game that is "backed by water" and that kind of goes out the window when you consider the Playerbase.

I'm interested in the idea of two currencies, if the Noble/Templarate currency really DID have more power and weight. Like Ness mentions, working for Lady Borsail might mean she gives you a stipend of 300 Noble Currency, which can pay for a more secure apartment that comes with furniture and ovens and such. Or, it could be used for buying pure-silk items, or paying off the Templarate, or what ever staff decides to put in so nobles can Apply-to-Win.

Then commoners can keep their obsidian coins, to trade with Salarr and Kadius and whatnot. Borsails 300 NCs won't do you any good if you're in Luir's or Red Storm anyway.

.

I like the idea, though there would be plenty to consider.

Such as: how would bribes (from the lower class to the upper class) work?

Quote from: Delirium on June 30, 2017, 02:20:38 PM
I like the idea, though there would be plenty to consider.

Such as: how would bribes (from the lower class to the upper class) work?

Goods and services that Nobles cannot acquire or perform, themselves.  Or bribe them with noble currency acquired from other nobles.

Booze and drugs for their parties.  Items from other places in the Known that, as nobles, they can't go.  Items they cannot make on their own, but a artisan can.

When festivals are held commoners can use their coin to purchase things they wouldn't normally be able to get, we can call the festivals 'The Fair', which is the root of the word in real life equivalent or the meaning behind it.

Quote from: manipura on June 29, 2017, 02:18:05 PM

Quote from: ghanima on June 29, 2017, 06:18:21 AM
As a result you hear outrageous statements that should never exist in a harsh desert world, like "I'm not looking for work right now, I just want to take it easy for a while" or "I'm going to take some time off and do some traveling".

I don't think I've ever heard someone say this sort of thing, unless they were providing a reason why they were going to be away for awhile.

That's fine, I have. We all have different experiences in this game. The above is one of mine. There are probably things you experience as a repeat trend that I've never seen once. Doesn't mean they're not happening.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 29, 2017, 03:36:53 PM

Quote from: ghanima on June 29, 2017, 06:18:21 AM
There's a lot of it that doesn't make sense and is unfair to the player. I'm not trying to suggest it should stay that way but the flip side is that some of the nonsensical aspects of NPC merchants are unfair in favor of the player and if you know what you're doing you can become extremely wealthy. As a result you hear outrageous statements that should never exist in a harsh desert world, like "I'm not looking for work right now, I just want to take it easy for a while" or "I'm going to take some time off and do some traveling".

The alternative to what you see as the problem would be players being forced into clans they don't want to play in (or any clan when they don't want to deal with the restrictions/drama that comes with clanned PCs). I've stored two characters because leader PCs wouldn't take hints that I didn't want my character in a clan despite it being in his best interest as far as the virtual world is concerned.  This is first and foremost a game and platform for writing for the intent of people enjoying creating stories.  Sometimes the story you want to create is not the status quo.

I'm not pointing the finger or assigning blame, I'm discussing cause and effect. I'm sure I've done the above with past characters myself too. No one's forcing you to join a clan if you don't want but at the same time it helps to reinforce the Zalanthan environment when our rich characters do not flaunt their wealth or snub their noses at job offers that most commoners would willfully chop one of their fingers off just to have. It may be too early to mention the character name in question but there was this one guy who was working his way toward MMH status and for no other reason than he was clearly a vet, I assumed he knew how to milk the code for all its worth. But you'd never guess that IC when he bemoaned the high cost of water in the city (I bet he got his water free in the desert) and how import taxes are weighing his business down etc (do these things even exist IC?). These were probably all virtual fees he was talking about but it brilliantly helped portray a struggling merchant type in a harsh environment. And all the while he could have had a bank account that said something outrageous like 125,000 coins but it didn't matter.

Could have. Might have. Probably. I assumed.


Even if the person had this ridiculous amount of coin in their Nenyuk account, what does it matter? Creating a MMH is not an easy process, and you don't just get one because you have 100,000 coins to give someone. Even in these instances, there is more to be had by gaining Templarate favor or Noble support through the donation of your coins and services than the coins will get you themselves.

I once wanted to be a Tuluki gladiator, before we had all this Free Gladiator and PCs can fight in the arenas mentality. I had to get training, which after the Byn and Salarr meant I needed someone in Tuluk willing to sponsor my training. AND I needed nobility to back up my cause and take me on as their own gladiator in the first place. It wouldn't matter if I threw a bunch of coins at someone, as much as if a single Senior Noble said "Sure let him try"

Quote from: Riev on July 01, 2017, 10:34:11 AM
Even if the person had this ridiculous amount of coin in their Nenyuk account, what does it matter? Creating a MMH is not an easy process, and you don't just get one because you have 100,000 coins to give someone. Even in these instances, there is more to be had by gaining Templarate favor or Noble support through the donation of your coins and services than the coins will get you themselves.

That's not really what I was getting at. Forget he was chasing MMH status or how much he had in his account. I'm saying the guy probably had coded fortunes but still found a way to RP the struggle that would surely exist for anyone. Well done, Mr. Indie!

There are clunky aspects of the code which make little sense, such as tanned hides being worth less than raw ones, or whatever. But a other aspects of the same code allow you to reap more than you lose. Commoners can achieve vast wealth such that working solo is more prosperous than being in a clan, however a good RPer will still find ways to portray the struggle that the code does not impose. That's really all I'm saying here.

If you feel you have too many coins, bury them in the desret to hide them then "Forget" when you go back to look.
IF you feel another character has too many coins, steal, mug, or con them away from them.
If you fell another cahracter has too many coins but you can't be bothered to put your effort where your mouth is, report their vast wealth to your nearest templar or noble, and perhaps even offer a little black clinking motivation to demonstrate how much you would like to see the cocky asshole relieved of their 'sid.

In otherwords, be the change.  I think we should have a nenyuki PC, if for no other reason than to be able to report the rich to their local templar for a cut when they are taxed for it.  Alternately, templar's and possibly nobles have enough clout that they could probably talk their local (NPC) clerk into giving them the 411.

I really like Nessalin's idea more than burying my coins in the desert.  :o

It is re-enforcing the current in game experience with new currency item.  It also be add another cool layer to the game if it is made illegal for commoners to be caught with the new noble currency.

I've never felt coin bribes work that well in this game anyways, offering information and/or services is what works best.     

New currency?

http://boingboing.net/2017/07/13/hatton-gardens-with-millennial.html

nessalin.

follow your dream.

make the new currency.

noble currency could be something that is used to buy either more luxury items (like horror armor and silk) while commoner currency is used to purchase -other- things (like regular types of shell, maybe water, food, things like that).

or as bribes.

the next question is, if you value noble currency, what does it value at? let's say a commoner gets his hands on noble currency, and another commoner wants to buy that off him.

would you say ten commoner currency for every one noble currency? would it even be feasible? then you have to judge the value of having one bit of noble currency, versus ten of your own, or one hundred or whatever.

now you have to decide - do you want that noble currency, to pay a templar off to whack your friend? or do you want 100 common currency to purchase food and water to survive for the next day?

I'm not a fan of two different types of currency, especially within the same city state.

How about crypto currency?

Quote from: Veselka on September 02, 2017, 12:08:10 PM
How about crypto currency?

You make money while you're way'ing someone?

Encapsulate your knowledge/memories and exchange them over the Way as a form of psychic currency.

Quote from: Jihelu on September 02, 2017, 11:54:39 AM
I'm not a fan of two different types of currency, especially within the same city state.

don't think of it like that, then.

one's more like "tokens" you exchange for services from people like templars.

the other's money.

QuoteEncapsulate your knowledge/memories and exchange them over the Way as a form of psychic currency.

Already being done every time anyone pays for information.  :P

That code exists already, no? The second currency part.

I believe the Legionnaires use a different currency to buy some of their clan gear?

Quote from: Dar on September 02, 2017, 04:28:40 PM
That code exists already, no? The second currency part.

I believe the Legionnaires use a different currency to buy some of their clan gear?

There does exist a "chit" system, with different colored cloths who have currency numbers attached. It wasn't fully fleshed out, but you could get like a "sunburst" chit worth 50 whatevers, and a new shield would be worth 40 chits.

Why does every city have the same currency?  Its the Allanaki obsidian coin.  I think it would make festivals (fairs) More viable if there were different currencies normally and then at the fair everyones coin is worth the same.   I don't like the idea of it being illegal for some to have a certain currency though, just make it harder to come by. 

maybe not illegal, but think of it like this:

you can ask a noble to pay you in normal coins, or you can ask him for a 'voucher' of some sort, that you could present to a templar - of course, the templar could refuse, but this 'voucher' item would have maybe some significant worth to a templar, such that they would be remiss to refuse an offer of such payment.

Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on September 03, 2017, 07:26:19 AM
Why does every city have the same currency?  Its the Allanaki obsidian coin.  I think it would make festivals (fairs) More viable if there were different currencies normally and then at the fair everyones coin is worth the same.   I don't like the idea of it being illegal for some to have a certain currency though, just make it harder to come by.

I think it has to do with the Nakki occupation of Tuluk...or something.

.

Tuluk, for a time, tried to have its own currency that was controlled by the Kassigarh, I think, but it never quite took.

Coins are supposed to be your purchasing power for water, the most required resource in the Known. I'd be fine if that stayed, but Vouchers were used for like... GMH custom orders, could be turned in for favor, and/or nobles/templars could use them to purchase silks, armies, and slaves.

I firmly believe that the needed changes with coins and economy is adhering to the setting in which the economy is rooted:  scarcity.

People who are not Templars, nobles, GMH family, or high ranking servants of such people, simply should not have access to a plethora of coins.  The concept of dealing in thousands of coins should be baffling and mystifying to almost anyone.  The concept of having access to work or wear silk as anything but a noble or the GMHs that clothe them should be outlandish and impossible. 

Scrappy, non uniform, worn down armor, crummy weapons made of bone or chipped obsidian are what any who are First Troopers, Sergeants of the Byn, senior privates+  in the Arm, or elite members of House battle groups and commanders should have access too.  An elegant, durable, reliable weapon with a gem in the pommel?  A pipe dream and life savings for the common peon.  a hard day's work nets you 50 coins, 10 to put up the beast that carried you, 10 to quench the thirst you drew up, 5 for that scrap of scrab meat from the grocer, 15 allocated to the hole in the wall with enough space to lay on a cot.  Leaves you with 10 coins in your pocket, and only needing 45 more to pick up that ""fancy" stone hammer you saw in Salarr's common shop.

So now, when that noble smiles at you and says, "All you have to do is tell me what you hear," and pushes 100 coins your way, you're looking at all the motivation one needs.  And a job that offers 200 coins a month, colors to show you're better than others, and having to deal with none of that bullshit?  Literally to die for.

editing in:  I realize that this is, unfortunately, a sweeping suggestion.  If you do some, but not all of it, the impact and value to the game is lost, and things are simply muddied.  But I believe the quote goes, "No more half measures."

That's very nice, but borderline impossible and due to nature of the game, will cause only problems and a significant loss of playability.

Having the 'noble' currency is really the best option. And one that I think is codedly possible. It also solves most of these problems and encourages gameplay tremendously.

Scarcity is nice for theme. But if you plan to keep Arm a mud instead of a Mush, its not really feasable.

The problem, Kryos, is that all your numbers are off. Even the cheapest scrap of mystery meat you can get is 14 sid. You need to eat like five of them to get full. Your average Byn Runner is making even less than that, usually zero (but is fed and watered) and usually kitted out in the way you describe. Your average hole in the wall is a good deal more expensive. Your mount costs like 3-4 times your figure to stable. Your numbers don't even leave enough to afford a mug of ale.

Quote from: Dar on September 05, 2017, 09:21:46 AM
Scarcity is nice for theme. But if you plan to keep Arm a mud instead of a Mush, its not really feasable.

Go more into that, because I'm not sure what you mean.

I think that scarcity as a theme can continue with a secondary "elite" form of currency. The virtual world is supposed to be economically based around water because when the game first came to life, it was a desert world and water being a currency sounded awesome. But the way the political climate has gone in game, I don't think that Borsail is the Premiere House of Allanak because they have more access to water.

I would honestly suggest that staff come together and try and formulate a reason for a new currency to be spread among the elite. A reason Nenyuk would support this new currency, the backing power of elite vs. commoner currency, etc etc. It may be quite a change, but I think it would allow commoners to "have tens of thousands of coins" but not be able to do much with it besides paying the Byn or getting "okay" sets of armor or furniture. If you want a Kadian-made upholstered armchair, you better have the clout/political backing to do it, as enforced by not having access to that currency unless its granted upon you.

In a mush, such concepts as hunger, thirst, resources, hunting, grabbing, sifting, majority of player versus world actions are mostly in the background. They are virtual. They are color.

In a mud, all of those are coded actions. Availability of which influence the state of grebbers, hunters, and merchants. In this situation, scarcity is nigh impossible. Opulence is difficult, full of dangers, but achievable. Scarcity would come only from purposeful intention of player himself

One potential problem is that tailoring the difficulty and investment of effort required for certain goals to a particular type of player's optimal state is to be prohibitively discouraging to anyone "below the bar". Not that this is what anyone is trying to say, but the end effect is basically "shut everyone out of the game but people like me". Not everyone is going to have an uninterrupted time to go out salting all day to get larges and larges like Amos the grebber.

Quote from: Grapes on September 05, 2017, 10:08:16 AM
One potential problem is that tailoring the difficulty and investment of effort required for certain goals to a particular type of player's optimal state is to be prohibitively discouraging to anyone "below the bar". Not that this is what anyone is trying to say, but the end effect is basically "shut everyone out of the game but people like me". Not everyone is going to have an uninterrupted time to go out salting all day to get larges and larges like Amos the grebber.

No, but this suggestion would lower the purchasing power of those that do. Whereas right now, with the right amount of time and coded skills, someone can make a large an in game day and just hoard it. Ten large in the bank? Sure! And maybe they use that for the Byn, maybe they dole it out to people, but in the end, that kind of coin should be going to Nobility who can use it to buy slaves, build buildings, improve things for themselves/family/the city (in that order!)

Right now, I could have 10k in my bank account and have all the best 7000 coin spears from Salarr I want. With the suggested system, I can only buy something that valuable with a different currency, granted to me by those in power, who have the political and social backing TO provide them. I can't just go out salting for a couple days and buy all the armor I want, I need to impress SOMEONE, somewhere along the line.

I don't know HOW, but GMHs would have to have need of both coin, and favor/vouchers. I think it would also open up a possibility of re-selling vouchers through the Black Market/Guild/Rinth/etc, where a noble is killed not because they're a noble, but because they had a bunch of vouchers on them and they're worth more than 4000 coins for some meat and water.

^

Yup.

Simply pay the Nobles's stipends in noble currency and allow them to be the 'only' sources of it.  What happens after will be for the rest of the gameworld.

The GMH will sell items of particular value 'only' for noble currency. Due to its scarcity, the Templars will value bribes in noble currency a lot more. Whether from the Nobles themselves, or from others who managed to accrue that currency via various methods that directly, or indirectly involved nobility. Nobility thus gains a lot more influence then they do now. More purchasing power, more influence, ability to be more rewarding to others.

Have you ever witnessed a Breed Ranger who knew how to greb diamonds/rare poisons/artifacts to be more influential then a GMH agent, or even worse ... a Noble. I have and always found it abominable. They were more valued then a Noble, and quiet often ... richer then that noble. With Noble Currency, that problem solves itself. The breed can be swimming in coin, but unless he invests in some other service, or pays all that wealth to criminals, he will still be unable to procure all that fancy gear, or favor.

I do not know if it's codedly possible. And I guess, it takes a lot of number crunching and work. But there is definitely a lot of benefits to that concept, and ... none of the disadvantages that I can think of.

Yeah, agreed. Noble currency ftw. It enforces scarcity of high-grade goods, reinforces the value of procuring the favor of the rich and powerful, and the representation of the wealth of the nobility. I suppose I'd ask "Well, what about Luir's?" but I'm sure vouchers will make their way there, or perhaps Merchant Houses could have their own vouchers.

Plus it opens up the prospect of playing a scheming elven rinthi currency manipulator.

Quote from: Grapes on September 05, 2017, 10:54:14 AM
Yeah, agreed. Noble currency ftw. It enforces scarcity of high-grade goods, reinforces the value of procuring the favor of the rich and powerful, and the representation of the wealth of the nobility. I suppose I'd ask "Well, what about Luir's?" but I'm sure vouchers will make their way there, or perhaps Merchant Houses could have their own vouchers.

Plus it opens up the prospect of playing a scheming elven rinthi currency manipulator.

As it relates to Luir's... most "tribal" groups only trade in coin because that's what most of the trade IS done in. The few I've played have always preferred to trade you two carru hides for a kryl shell, or whatever seems about right. Trade doesn't have to be solely in coin, and I admit its not an EASY solution to come up with, but I think its worth this discussion.

However, lets play the other side. Other than work involved (coding, coming up with an IC reason for the change), why wouldn't this work?

Requiring PC Nobles to spend, or not, this new currency might be some added pressure to be around and available.
It may make them feel like vending machines for people who do work for them.
If they are the source of these vouchers, can Nobles not spend it on themselves? Will Templars have access only from Nobility?
Are vouchers only for high-end GMH gear? If so, should those with access to these vouchers have other perks? (Different Arboreteum food, etc)

Anything else that'd really hard-block the institution of something like this? Does it not fit the theme of the world?

Quote from: Riev on September 05, 2017, 11:00:09 AM

Quote from: Grapes on September 05, 2017, 10:54:14 AM
Yeah, agreed. Noble currency ftw. It enforces scarcity of high-grade goods, reinforces the value of procuring the favor of the rich and powerful, and the representation of the wealth of the nobility. I suppose I'd ask "Well, what about Luir's?" but I'm sure vouchers will make their way there, or perhaps Merchant Houses could have their own vouchers.

Plus it opens up the prospect of playing a scheming elven rinthi currency manipulator.

As it relates to Luir's... most "tribal" groups only trade in coin because that's what most of the trade IS done in. The few I've played have always preferred to trade you two carru hides for a kryl shell, or whatever seems about right. Trade doesn't have to be solely in coin, and I admit its not an EASY solution to come up with, but I think its worth this discussion.

However, lets play the other side. Other than work involved (coding, coming up with an IC reason for the change), why wouldn't this work?

Requiring PC Nobles to spend, or not, this new currency might be some added pressure to be around and available.
It may make them feel like vending machines for people who do work for them.
If they are the source of these vouchers, can Nobles not spend it on themselves? Will Templars have access only from Nobility?
Are vouchers only for high-end GMH gear? If so, should those with access to these vouchers have other perks? (Different Arboreteum food, etc)

Anything else that'd really hard-block the institution of something like this? Does it not fit the theme of the world?

Already in some areas GMHs will not sell certain goods to commoners, you simply cannot buy them from the house unless you are of the proper station. This protects customers from wrath on high, as well as the house itself. You can however sometimes find them being sold from a vendor. Noble vouchers would not change who goods are exchanged with very much, but it would be a higher grade of currency.

Since the Templarate is, according to the documention, reliant upon the wealth of noble houses in order to push their efforts, then I would assume they would only receive them as bribes from the nobility and those fortunate or dastardly enough to acquire them through other means.

It looks like a great idea to me, but it would take some individuals much more talented than I in certain fields a good deal of time and effort to implement correctly. That's the one flaw I can spot, though I do like the concept.

EDIT: Nobles would not be required to spend them. Employees (official or not) who do well may be rewarded with them as a sign of their Lady or Lord's favour. Nobles would be free to spend or hoard them as they see fit, preferably spend on items or as bribes to facilitate them seeping into the economy. Voucher piles would be more sensible to carry weight-wise than trying to cart ten thousand coins around. Voucher supply would at any time be limited to the generosity (or untimely demise) of the noble PCs provided with them, or possibly the presence of a master-counterfeiter.

If they feel like vending machines, well, spread the love around the playerbase.

The difficult thing would be refiguring vendors to accept them, however, one only need currency exchanges in towns and outposts. This would increase the viability of criminal and violent enterprises by reducing the need to utilize a bank, increasing the amount of valuable loot individuals can feasibly carry. I would posit that banks can accept them as deposits, but will only return coin on the perceived value of the vouchers upon deposit (so by depositing them you lose them permanently), and spot and reject counterfeit vouchers, possibly alerting the Templarate.

I know Salarr has House-specific arms and armor that they deal in, that can't be sold to people.
In the past they've been told "no more than <x> of these specific item to be sold per IG month" to try and artificially limit things.
I don't know if Kurac/Kadius have House-specific things, maybe instruments and very intensely-specific gear, but I don't know.

My concern is that this Noble Currency would need to be backed by SOMETHING. Coin is supposed to be backed by water-purchasing power, but Noble Currency would have to be backed by like... slave buying power, or Senate Favor or something. I don't know, it'd have to be something tangible, I think, for Nenyuk to possibly peddle in it.

There would also need to be some sort of hard delineation on what Noble Currency can buy. Does Salarr only sell gurth shell and leather, or scrab shell armor unless you have some sort of Noble Currency? Do Nobles pay for Byn work in Noble Currency AND coin, so that Runners/Troopers can still afford booze? Does Kadius ONLY sell their famed alcohols for Noble Currency?

I think it could be wonderful but its an entire system that would take a lot of discussion, and as we all know, change comes slow.

.

Quote from: Molten Heart on September 05, 2017, 11:33:25 AM
As they sell high end goods and collect this new high end currency, will merchant houses have a legitimate need/use for the currency, or will they end up just stockpiling it?

Without going into too much IC detail, I, personally, foresee that everyone will want such currency, as it will be the most viable means of bribing angry Templars to get off your back, or get on someone else's. The way I perceive it working is that Merchant house receiving them for goods and services will be free to stockpile or spend it as they see fit, but every action, or lack of action comes with consequences, some positive, some negative. The scarcity will come into play when players exchange existing vouchers for coin in order to purchase from NPC vendors that only sell goods in coin, as the exchanged vouchers will effectively get tossed in Nenyuk's money silo, never to return, where Scrooge McDuck will proceed to swim in it.

The idea is to reflect the wealth of individuals and organizations of status while Amos the grebber is told, "In this particular situation, your coin is near worthless".

"We only take British money, so sing a song, or six-pence."

Admittedly, there would have to be a Noble Currency sink of some kind that even the GMH's would be keen on utilizing. Whether it be for slave purchases, maybe they pay it back to Fale for them to sponsor a party in the GMH's honor... maybe the GMH's use that Noble Currency to buy a gladiator slave or two. Its not UNHEARD of for Lord Templars to be named from the GMHs, maybe for an incredible cost, one could be nominated from their ranks, which would elevate the GMH for providing such fine stock.

Yes, there would need to be something that "everyone" would want to spend the currency on, not just allowing GMH to stockpile while Nobles earn it at some pre-determined interval. I would suggest maybe a Noble Quarter Currency Market, where only Noble Currency is accepted, but Nobles and their aides can buy banners/standards in their house image and color, or unique-to-the-house items that are loaded up and rotated every IC year. Then nobles would have to decide between spending their currency on things for themselves, slaves and favor for their family, or spending the currency on the Byn or a GMH custom craft.

If the Allanak currency is a commodity currency based on water, does Allanak have enough water to back it all up?  A key consideration for inflation/deflation with commodity currencies.

I can't think of another commodity that is rare enough to have value yet common enough to back a currency, so a second one would likely have to be a fiat currency.  And given there would likely, through official or unofficial means, be an exchange rate...you are back to what is the point (especially given all the effort that would be involved)?

I like what staff did with the Tan Muarki vendor recently introduced in the last few months: you can purchase things either with sid or barter with them at a set amount.

In my opinion, I think 'social capital' should have much more reach than actual capital in Zalanthas.  This is actually reflected in PC decisions sometimes. So, for example, Salarr/Kadian Merchant PCs won't bother selling to some no name grebber, since it is a waste of their time.

Quote from: Brokkr on September 05, 2017, 11:59:25 AM
If the Allanak currency is a commodity currency based on water, does Allanak have enough water to back it all up?  A key consideration for inflation/deflation with commodity currencies.

I can't think of another commodity that is rare enough to have value yet common enough to back a currency, so a second one would likely have to be a fiat currency.  And given there would likely, through official or unofficial means, be an exchange rate...you are back to what is the point (especially given all the effort that would be involved)?

This is precisely what I keep wondering about, myself. Is there another commodity that can be as, or more, rare than that. Perhaps the Noble Currency is actually based on metal purchasing power, be it silver, copper, steel, etc. Granted, it'd still be rare as hell, but each Noble Currency item is backed by some sort of metal reserve? Even if it takes 4000 Noble Currency to buy a silver ankle bell, that's still a commodity backing, that is more in line with Nobility, and not as "necessary" as the coin to water ratios.

One of the things necessary for a fiat currency is being able to convert it into the commodity.  The problem with metal is that the convertability wouldn't exist, or shouldn't.

The other problem is that the Noble Houses are funded via taxes.  If those taxes are on the regular currency, how is the noble currency created?  Since you actually have to increase the supply of the commodity available for conversion, in order to increase the money supply for a commodity currency.

.

I'm mostly opposed to the idea of another 'cool kid currency' because I feel like it would have the same thing that regular currency has already.

"oh no templar whats his face is mad at me, I'll throw money at him"
Except he doesn't want your coin, or your 'I sucked a noble's dick' coin either, as he either has his own or whatever he can buy with it doesn't make him hate you less. Though I guess that isn't the fault of the system but a part of players being individuals, I just don't see the real point of another currency, even if it is backed by something else.

Being backed by metal actually makes kinda sense and would be cool as fuck, simply because 'I can buy metal or exchange it with this', but as previously stated by daddystaff-kun that it would be viable.

I kind of liked what Dark Sun did with their currency and prices on metal where everything was so god awful expensive you would need more coin than you could physically carry, as a half giant I think, to buy something made of metal.

But in Dark sun metal was actually more common than it is in Arm, so a metal backed currency doesn't seem right to me. I like the idea of slave backed currency but eh.

You could flat out just make a currency and call it 'Highlord loves me' money.

The idea of Cool Kid Currency is to reduce the purchasing power, though I suppose that's just a coded solution to a player issue. If a Merchant wants to sell to someone, they will, so long as they have the coin.

Quote from: Brokkr on September 05, 2017, 02:52:23 PM
One of the things necessary for a fiat currency is being able to convert it into the commodity.  The problem with metal is that the convertability wouldn't exist, or shouldn't.

The other problem is that the Noble Houses are funded via taxes.  If those taxes are on the regular currency, how is the noble currency created?  Since you actually have to increase the supply of the commodity available for conversion, in order to increase the money supply for a commodity currency.

Metal-backed currency makes sense, it was just a simple suggestion. I, personally, didn't realize the limiting factor would actually be a World-building issue as it relates to actual economics.

I agree about the taxes, though. If the Noble Houses are funded via the city taxes, why would THEY care about coin when they have Cool Kid Currency anyways?

I want to be snarky about coding and world-changing priorities, but I'll hold back.

Was on the same page on the first page.

Apparently that evolved into alternative currencies again, which is still as unnecessary and strange of an idea as it was the first time it was presented.

Quote from: Grapes on September 05, 2017, 09:28:01 AM
The problem, Kryos, is that all your numbers are off. Even the cheapest scrap of mystery meat you can get is 14 sid. You need to eat like five of them to get full. Your average Byn Runner is making even less than that, usually zero (but is fed and watered) and usually kitted out in the way you describe. Your average hole in the wall is a good deal more expensive. Your mount costs like 3-4 times your figure to stable. Your numbers don't even leave enough to afford a mug of ale.

I don't think you actually read my post.

Also, a second currency type is just a slap dash measure to address a deeper issue.  It will end up creating another can of worms, in my opinion.

Would removal of banks help?

It wouldn't help alleviate the ease of making coins but would limit how much any individual could horde away.

Well, Armaddict makes a good point that there WAS an original topic. Per removal of banks, I don't think that would help the situation at all, it would just make burglars even more rich and popular.

On the original topic, I think its still just a matter of a rotating staff setting relatively arbitrary numbers for item values when submitting crafts. I know that when I submit custom crafts, the value is often low because the "value" of that carru horn is like 23 coins, so my knife can't be more valuable than, say, 40 coins. But I think NPC Merchants base their costs on a % of the static value of an item. So if someone set carru hide to be worth 200 coins, but a carru hide jacket is only worth 120... its just a simple discrepancy. Either the hide should make more than one jacket, or the jacket should be worth more.

Unfortunately, I also kind of agree that "carru hide" could be a jacket, gloves, part of armor, leather for a chair, etc etc. Because it can be anything, its value is worth more than the simple leather jacket you made out of it. This is just simple person to person sales, that jacket is not worthwhile to people who buy things, but the hide is more valuable to you because you need it for other things.

Quote from: Jihelu on September 05, 2017, 03:30:33 PM
I'm mostly opposed to the idea of another 'cool kid currency' because I feel like it would have the same thing that regular currency has already.

"oh no templar whats his face is mad at me, I'll throw money at him"
Except he doesn't want your coin, or your 'I sucked a noble's dick' coin either, as he either has his own or whatever he can buy with it doesn't make him hate you less. Though I guess that isn't the fault of the system but a part of players being individuals, I just don't see the real point of another currency, even if it is backed by something else.

Being backed by metal actually makes kinda sense and would be cool as fuck, simply because 'I can buy metal or exchange it with this', but as previously stated by daddystaff-kun that it would be viable.

I kind of liked what Dark Sun did with their currency and prices on metal where everything was so god awful expensive you would need more coin than you could physically carry, as a half giant I think, to buy something made of metal.

But in Dark sun metal was actually more common than it is in Arm, so a metal backed currency doesn't seem right to me. I like the idea of slave backed currency but eh.

You could flat out just make a currency and call it 'Highlord loves me' money.

In actuality the cool kid's currency will alleviate this more. Templars dont get paid. They're an absolutely free labour :). They exist 'entirely' on Noble/Commoner bribes/investments. So if a Templar decides to mess with you on a whim. Not because he really seriously hates you for some reason, but simply on a whim and your bribe does not affect him in any way, then odds are good is that he is 'full of coin'. And the reason why he is full of coin is because, prior to you, he was given some extremely insanely big large hefty bribes. Possibility of getting hefty bribes from Hunter extraordinaire and salt grebbers is pretty high right now.

With the new currency, things change. If the bribe with old money is not working out, because the Templar's got that stuff pouring out of his nostrils, try the new currency. That suddenly changes things. Because new currency is basically liquid noble favor. The fact that you have some, means somehow, someone. somewhere had to do something to a Noble house that earned it.  Bribes in that currency are rarer and it's less likely for the Templar to be full on that type of currency. He also needs it for fine clothing, fine dining, and payment to outside sources.

The difficult part would indeed be deciding on what items get sold for which currency. I assume all silk and most wooden items in Allanak. Probably anything that costs more then 350 sid right now?



The part about that currency being backed up by something. I dont really understand the principle. What is the point of introducing this factor? With the virtual world in play, it kind of goes moot. For both the obsidian, 'and' any other other currency.

virtually, it's likely backed by copper, iron, and things of that nature.

rare metals.

obsidian is backed by water.

it's just a way of saying "this has value because we have this".

I'm really confused by this desire for a different currency. I can't figure out what problem this is attempting to solve, and it seems it would overly complicate an already odd arbitrary Economy.

If the worry is that people make too much money and buy too many fancy things, couldn't that be rounded off at the point of sale? Perhaps only grubby/fair things are available to sell to unaffiliated common people, hunters, and certain ranks within Houses and organizations. The nicer quality has to go to certain ranks and up. Limits on how many can be sold a month or whatever.

If money shouldn't be the end all be all, then perhaps that should be written into documentation. Or perhaps the Bank won't allow Commoners/non-Houses/entities to have over a certain balance, forcing the money back out into the world (or into places where it can be stolen). So if no one Commoner could have over 2000 coins in their personal account, it sort of limits what they're capable of saving for. They can band together with other Commoners to try and pool their money together, but that requires a degree of trust and possible betrayal.

I dunno. I'm just not really understanding the Noble Currency, and it sounds like bitcoin to me.

Sorry if I'm feeding the derail to banking and away from vendors for a moment, but:

What if there was a standard limit on PC bank accounts of 2000 coins, but House Nenyuk was brought back as a PC clan a la the Iron Bank in Game of Thrones. Nenyuki Agents could help commoners open higher-capped bank accounts, for a fee of course, along with negotiating lending arrangements and brokering deals. And of course, hiring thugs to bust kneecaps if terms aren't met. So you could still be a wealthy commoner and keep your money safe, but now you'll be on somebody's radar.

Imagine if your bank balance at Nenyuk could go negative, even. It might be easier to play PCs with expensive habits like whoring and drinking and smoking if you could actually drive yourself into debt doing them.

lol, 2,000 limit? Say goodbye to player clans if that was the case. Besides, why would nenyuk want to limit bank accounts? They get a cut of everything you deposit. They don't want people to hoard their coins outside the bank, that's bad business!

Part of the suggestion, from my end, was to take the onus away from staff and players to police the idea, just to use it as they see fit.

Opening up a new clan to deal with the drudgery of coin and conversion sounds interesting, but its like voluntarily playing the wasteland raider. Everyone likes the idea, few apply for it, less survive to MAKE it interesting.

More on the original topic, though... is it a problem if the 200 coin carru hide only makes a 120 coin jacket? With high haggle, you could still make your coin back, potentially, and if you sell to a PC it could be even better.

The only way I see it being an issue is for subguild crafters that don't get a decent haggle. So they have to buy things at market cost and may not make a lot... but in that case, you can use your primary guild to assist your material acquisition.

delirium, could you do me a big favor and read this bit:

Quote from: Jherlen on September 06, 2017, 12:50:15 PM
Sorry if I'm feeding the derail to banking and away from vendors for a moment, but:

What if there was a standard limit on PC bank accounts of 2000 coins, but House Nenyuk was brought back as a PC clan a la the Iron Bank in Game of Thrones. Nenyuki Agents could help commoners open higher-capped bank accounts, for a fee of course, along with negotiating lending arrangements and brokering deals. And of course, hiring thugs to bust kneecaps if terms aren't met. So you could still be a wealthy commoner and keep your money safe, but now you'll be on somebody's radar.

Imagine if your bank balance at Nenyuk could go negative, even. It might be easier to play PCs with expensive habits like whoring and drinking and smoking if you could actually drive yourself into debt doing them.

the implication being that, you open a bigger, more higher-capped account with nenyuk via a pc player which would give people a reason to play nenyuki pcs and to open the clan, expanding the game world a little bit more.

I think nessalin's post on dynamic systems in the future sounds very promising.  I'm not sure if that's actually in the works though.

Mostly, I'd like to see an announcement that if something seems undervalued in comparison to what's required to make it, we should bring it to attention for editing, either on the materials themselves or the item made.

The economy is a bigger beast than crimcode or anything else.  We haven't even figured this shit out in real life yet.

Sorry, but that still sounds like a lot of effort for ... what kind of gain? Does it make the game more fun? Or does it add an unnecessary layer of playtime juggling, special app recycling, "I spent 3 years building a relationship with this one Nenyuki but then they retired due to lack of playtimes and now all of that is completely moot if the next app-in decides they hate my guts" frustration?

Don't get me wrong. In an ideal world that would be a fantastic idea. In a world-building, seamless scenario where we could simply write the story, that sounds great. But in a game, with players, that sounds like it could get frustrating fast.

automate it then.

... and then what would be the difference? We can already set up relationships with NPC/VNPC Nenyuki through reports and staff animation and believe me, Nenyuk is aware of what is in your PC's bank account and you will receive corresponding attention. You could very likely set up loans and you already do pay fees, lots of fees, if you're someone who should be paying fees.

I no doubt sound very brusque here, but the point is that currently, your only real limit is your imagination. The more you codify this and make it something you MUST go through rather than something that you can add to your roleplay, the more it becomes a hassle that impedes gameplay rather than being something available that you can use to support your story when circumstance allows.

and if you're just a nobody grebber with 10,000 in your bank account not doing anything with it, honestly? it doesn't matter.

i don't think nenyuk is in the business of handing money out to -anyone- without some kind of collateral in case payment isn't made.

that's something that would have to be taken up with staff, though. not my area.

i'm just saying, a system where -normal- commoners could only hoard so much money without paying a hefty fee to increase their upper limit seems pretty corrupt and nenyuki to me.

That already exists. Post2k, transactions incur 10% loss.

no, that's a fee determined by the amount of money you deposit.

i'm talking about a fee to increase what you're -allowed- to deposit.

say your first limit is 2k.

you deposit to that.

nenyuk says "You want to store more money? There's an administrative fee required for that. Pay one thousand obsidian coins, or store your money somewhere else."

You're more than welcome to park your hard earned coin in the pockets of a Templar. Just don't expect a return.

Haggle is broken. That is relevant to the conversation at hand.

I'll say it again:  treating symptoms does not a cure make.  Things like room weight limits, status related housing have fallen flat.  The new currency thing will fall flat.  We still have relative nobodies living in luxury sipping wine.  I love creative thinking and problem solving, but the tough ones, and this is a tough one, require one to roll up their sleeves and get to work fixing the root cause.  And on the concept of backed money:  it doesn't matter.  People accepted and used coins to create transactions over a barter system because it worked.  People took your coins, you didn't have to haul a pile of hides over to the miller to get the month's grain.  As demonstrated by modern U.S. currency, no one cares if its redeemable or not:  they just care that it works.

Some of that will be fixed, I think, just from the preview of the guild overhaul.  No more merchant means no more guild(class) who has an entire purpose of accumulating gigantic amounts of money and little else.  That leaves refactoring item breakage and consumption, price adjustments to items and services, scarcity of high end items, and payment tweaking for jobs.  Some are relatively too high, some relatively too low and such is easy to fix when you're sweeping up cost of living changes as well as economic sinks too.   

Haggle isn't necessarily "broken", nor is merchants making huge piles of coin. You see, NPC vendors have a limited amount of coin which they slowly replenish. If one person is getting all the coin, it may be an indicator that too few people are providing competition by rolling merchant. It's not that PCs have coin that's the problem, it's that other PCs do not value it as they should. I can think of a couple dozen better reasons why the proposed guild revamp is a good idea. This is not one of them.

If your npc vendor wont buy another purple rock, try selling something less common than purple rocks. Try selling blue rocks instead.

Or an example I know that makes several different items from the same piece of thing, weapons. A particular, very easy to get piece of obsidian, can make I think four or five different weapons, try doing that and such instead.


On the other hand, the guys who make dozens of supposedly rare items and sell those for several thousand sid all at once bug me. Especially of they are selling to their own clan shop for instance. Eg, Kadius making jewelery and selling it to Kadius, Salarr making arms and armor and selling it to their shop.

Quote from: Hauwke on September 10, 2017, 10:21:04 PM
If your npc vendor wont buy another purple rock, try selling something less common than purple rocks. Try selling blue rocks instead.

Or an example I know that makes several different items from the same piece of thing, weapons. A particular, very easy to get piece of obsidian, can make I think four or five different weapons, try doing that and such instead.


On the other hand, the guys who make dozens of supposedly rare items and sell those for several thousand sid all at once bug me. Especially of they are selling to their own clan shop for instance. Eg, Kadius making jewelery and selling it to Kadius, Salarr making arms and armor and selling it to their shop.

They usually do not do that for profit. As in they sell it at cost. Just to add to the inventory.

Or ... they're doing it against the rules and can actually be punished for it IG.

Thats fair enough I suppose, I hadnt thought of that. Though I still find it odd.

Wow, I mean just, wow. Let me start by saying, you don't know the documentation rules if you never join a merchant house clan. Merchant house clan members, who, have to be promoted before ever getting the permission to sell, have to sell only to specific vendors. They cannot sell, typically, to their own clan vendors. They are also typically not allowed to haggle with their clan vendors, and depending on agreements, they may be unable to sell to other merchant house vendors too. To do so would be to invite some, possibly severe IC backlash.

To encounter this kind of argument probably shouldn't be surprising to me, but merely confirming that, most of you have no clue what you're talking about.

EDIT: You could say indie merchants have the quickest path to riches, but trying to crack down on that is like shooting yourself in the foot.

Edit: To take out the snark because I am not a complete asshole.

In a more on topic section of the post, Coin is absurdly easy to get your hands on with enough playtime depending on what you do. Making a few thousand coins every rl day can be done with enough time, even on hard-coded jobs.

CAN be? I know for a fact you can stack some 10-20k a RL day if you have no obstacles. That is not the point, and such methods have nothing to do with haggle or NPC vendors. The thing is if you're making that kind of coin you need to stop and ask yourself if you might be overdoing it, and find a way to RP your character in a more realistic manner, and start paying characters who CAN'T make that kind of coin for small jobs with your ill-gotten gains. You don't set the bar to someone who has no life.

The few I've seen do that, and NOT doing it to pad their own pockets, are doing it to try and create a 'trend'. Like how Kadian shops sometimes only have certain colors in stock, I've seen (rarely, of course) Salarri who decide that this month, they're putting in a bunch of scrab shell armor into the shops, but they offer it to the shop at 0 coins. Just so people can have access to a common good at REAL prices, not what some Merchant decided.

I always thought it was a great way to get the crafters learning to make, say, a bunch of shortswords. Its Short Sword month! We've got four different kinds of swords, and one very special kind usually available only for personal orders!

Unfortunately, that butts out indie merchants but... hey. Buy your own stand in the bazaar.

QuoteMaking a few thousand coins every rl day can be done with enough time, even on hard-coded jobs.

I -think- I'm just reiterating what Grapes said.  This will always be the case, because if you make it absurdly hard to get coin based on someone having that kind of time to generate coins, you end up making it impossible for people who don't have that kind of time.

This has always been the justification in my head for why food is expensive; at least when you're logged in longer, you have to eat more.  I'm not certain if that's the best way to reflect things though.

Making those few thousand coins on coded jobs requires doing nothing but that job, day in and day out. If stamina regeneration affected hunger/thirst, it might balance out the amount of time people spend on these jobs, considering being in a city environment seems to keep you from being hungry/thirsty as quickly.

So if you spend all day, Dawn to Dusk, shoveling out a stable.... at the end you're going to be hungry enough to spend half the coin in food. If you spend just the morning, you might make enough for an ale in the evening and still have half a day to do something fun.

Quote from: Riev on September 11, 2017, 01:06:47 PM
So if you spend all day, Dawn to Dusk, shoveling out a stable.... at the end you're going to be hungry enough to spend half the coin in food. If you spend just the morning, you might make enough for an ale in the evening and still have half a day to do something fun.

I played a dung scraper a bit ago when there were tons of crashes each day.  Each crash reset the poop in the stable which meant I barely scraped by, and probably wouldn't have if I didn't know where to buy/find cheap food at the respawn spots.

Armaddict has the right of it: while a lot of people like playing the 'jobs' game, in general there's a tension between making it hard to survive and making it such that all you do is log in and do coded actions with no time for RP scenes.

Fortunately, Arm has about 20 years of tweeking gone into the various economy systems.  There's still a lot of tweeking that can happen too.

My favorite item in the economy remains arrows.  They are expensive enough that it makes you think twice about wasting sid on them, and they are time-consuming enough to make that it also makes you think twice about wasting them.  And unlike other things, they are actually useful for coded things, so there's always a demand.

I've always liked various food items. It can be difficult, even with Merchant barter, to find things that are profitable, but once you find the 3-4 things that will make you some coin, it can be easier to scrape by.

At least we're not in the "buy this one OVER ABUNDANT NEW ITEM, craft it into a simple weapon NOBODY USES, and sell it for 400 coins" anymore. Or chests. My god, chests.

My favorite activity on my year played merchant was making absolute shit tons of money both making diamonds + silk related items.

That being said not everyone has the luxury of working diamonds, but those were more or less my 'four items' I made to make coin.
I'm not proud of my self.

That's interesting, Reiv, putting items in the merchant house shop you belong to for zero coin. It is a really neat way to promote products that rarely load, if at all, in the shop inventory ICly. Indie merchants really need no pity, once the horrible grind is over it's all about finding suppliers, shelling out coin to keep the market going, and dumping finished goods in the shops the Merchant houses don't sell to, namely, their own shops, and making sure not to poo all over the market by overstocking items other merchants may be selling.

It's hard to blame a PC, or the player themselves, for being savvy at making coin in an acceptable IC manner, then spending some of their earnings on some luxuries from time to time. That's one complaint I've heard before, is that once a player gets their ideal kit together they really have no other coded use for their extra earnings. Kudos to players who can find reason to spend their coin instead of hoarding it. So they bought a cask of wine, in doing so, they have created a plot with a wine-selling PC in addition to funelling out excess profits for a valid IC reasons.

And if Joe Dirt Grebber ever oversteps and takes to wearing silks and jewels? Well, I think we've seen that story play out before. If they're not HIGHLY important to the right people, they may find themselves relieved of their goods, potentially in a fatal manner. I'm not sure the economy is particularly broken, as it's up to the player to regulate their own earnings and  spending. The problem is any applied "fix" without proper forthought could break the economy in such a way as to make the game unplayable for some players, which, will not help retention.

The complaint seems to be that indies are amassing more coin than "wealthy" noble houses. This  may be true, but you also need to take into account that a noble's wealth, and that of their servants, is not purely reflected in "coin" form. Nobles can and often do purchase goods and services beyond the reach of what any indie could possibly aspire to, and that's not all, their house feeds them the GOOD stuff, no tough strips of meat for these bad boys. Full-time bodyguards at their beck and call (those MUST be costly), armies of slaves, and an unbelievable amount of status, power, and protections. Nothing Joe will ever touch in his short life with a one-hundred foot pole.

.

Its also difficult to put it in terms of "Nobles get better things" because honestly, they don't.

Metal is so rare that outside of that one Tuluki buying a silver ankle bell, its almost never seen and kill for 'just because'. Silks are arbitrary, and Nobles eating the "good food" doesn't affect me one bit. If my PC has to eat tough meat and dream of pies their whole life, Nobles eating flaming cheese tembos every day doesn't really affect me or the 10k coins in my bank. Salarr and Kadius DO have House-Only crafts, but as time goes on, staff and players alike don't know what these are, and that 5000 coin sword you like is sold to the Noble for 3000 but you both can have the same sword.

Slaves. Building. Protection. Its basically virtual protections that I have to enforce in my own mind, because I don't get to see it. There's a disparity in game between "This guy has 20,000 in the bank" and "In order to do the crew of slaves or get your own wagon you need 1,000,000 coins minimum".

Quote from: Molten Heart on September 11, 2017, 04:54:21 PM
It'd be cool if there were some mechanism we're merchant house people (Crafters/merchants) could stock their houses shops with their own wares and, if those items sold, receive a commission.

Agreed. Don't know how it'd work, but totally agreed.

Give noble food the values required to 'eat' it once and it will fill you instead of having to spam eat and I'd care about noble food.  XD

Protection can end up meaning something, but I suppose it's circumstantial. If you mostly depend on yourself to keep your hide intact, it's not really something you think about, but if you have minions to protect or if you can't really keep yourself or your business safe, it really comes into play.

Building projects don't often need sid so much as resources and connections, but you sometimes do need to pay base costs, in my experience. Then you just sometimes need sid to grease palms, especially when you get slammed with fines or unexpected expenses.

Slaves are just hugely expensive and the recent gladiators aside, who seem to have good staying power (unless they die in the arena), they seem to store too often to be a good investment.

I often wondered if I was doing well or poorly on my first merchant. I was in a house and after reading these boards, I always figured that I had less sid than any idie. At one point I had almost 100,000 sid in the bank and it wasn't through any special knowledge of the economy or from spam crafting. It was just through selling to the player base and doing the job over time. Then I got promoted to leadership and it was like there was a hole in my freakin' pocket. I funneled a lot back into the clan.

Oh, don't get me wrong. Aside from always having a "go" bag on my Byn Sergeants (maybe thats true, maybe its not come fite me), I usually funnel a lot back into the clan. Buying casks of booze, trying to convince a PC to do a sultry/sexy/stripper dance, paying to have an elf from the 'rinth brought in so we can throw rocks at it.... you know. BONDING.

Quote from: Molten Heart on September 11, 2017, 04:54:21 PM
It'd be cool if there were some mechanism where merchant house people (Crafters/merchants) could stock their houses shops with their own wares and, if those items sold, receive a commission.

Oh my god, I love this. I enjoy house crafters from time to time and this would be pretty good, especially since sometimes I just can't do human hours.

I think the most interesting thing about this conversation is people claiming that somehow crafting things is like, OMG, WAY too much money, simulataneously there's anther thread about craft fails that mentions the actual IC logistics much better than I've seen them described here.

There are certain crafts that, depending on your location, will always be worthwhile. Even if you fail 3/4 times you make it, that one time will get you enough coin to cover the resources and half your month's rent.

Its not "OMG WAY" too much money, but being a 'full crafter' does come with a lot of ability to make coin off different items.

I don't think staff are going to do anything about the economy until they see the effects of the new guilds. Multicrafters that can greb without dying, and all that. People that want to buy the 'full package' of poisons, saps and picks all at once. That depends on when they are coming, though.

Buff crafting in general. Have the 'skill level' of the maker determine the overall quality of the finished product, but put caps on the roll one makes based on their skill level, allowing even a novice crafter to make something very nice, if they're lucky.

Novice: the shoddy pair of leather gloves
Apprentice: the simple pair of leather gloves
Journeyman: The pair of leather gloves
Advanced: The polished pair of leather gloves
Master: The immaculate pair of leather gloves

Quality would add little bonuses that give people an edge. Weapons a bit sharper, armor a bit tougher, food a bit more filling, works a bit more refined. And on the other hand, someone who makes poorer quality stuff would sell for less as it would be less good, but perhaps it would be easier to sell or pass off to someone that would greedily take it.

A shoddy pair of leather gloves may not exactly sell for tons, but now someone in the 'rinth is happy to have a new pair of gloves without someone trying to fucking murder him for it that is almost as good as something he could pick up southside from salaar.

Meanwhile, you've got merchants trying to make the highest quality goods but need differentials and classes of armor so they can try and provide cheap, shitty armor to commoners and shiny, well-made armor to people who are willing to shill out a few more sids for higher quality stuff.

When crafting, by default, one would never be able to fuck up below their skill level, but as stated before, can make something above it.
So if a journeyman armorcrafter wanted to make some gloves, unless he failed and bungled the craft, he would get either regular gloves, or maybe he had a great day and rolled advanced and got some polished gloves, or maybe he was in the zone and they're absolutely immaculate.  There comes the money, and all of a sudden you've got some leather gloves that look good, feel good, hell, they probably smell good too, even for tanned leather.
But what if this journeyman crafter has some 'rinthi friends he wants to make some shitty gloves for? Then he could 'craft [novice] leather, 2.leather into gloves' to have an easier time making said gloves, and ensuring they come out shitty.

Of course, this would mean literally every single craftable item in the game would have to be changed, and current items that exist would never be better than 'journeyman' level unless they're super rare items that you'd probably ask staff to give a touch up.
It's just a pipe dream, really, I'm rambling.

I wonder if "minor advantages" are possible from a code perspective.

If all the dice rolling is done with straight integers on a typical D&D scale, probably not.

That is, if leather armor has a range of like 1-4 damage reduction, and it can only be set to an integer, going from 3 to 4 isn't a minor increase in quality...it's a 33% upgrade.

At any rate, I don't think anything over journeyman is necessary to achieve maximum functionality.  Advanced and master should be the realm of frippery, in terms of the final product.

RE: clans and vendors

I had a subclass weaponcrafter in Salarr a while back, and I was allowed to sell the weapons to the Salarr shop, as long as I delivered the coins to my family member boss, and then I'd get like a 30% commission or something.  I suppose the docs might've been made stricter since then, but I didn't see a problem with it.  The coins are staying in the family, and they're selling merchandise that they "bought" for 8% of the final sell price (as opposed to the stock 25% they offer any indie who shows up with a loot knife).

E.g. if I sold a 100 'sid knife to the shop, the shop would pay me 25 'sid, I'd turn that 25 over back to a different Salarri, and I'd get 8 'sid back.  1,250% markup isn't bad business at all for the House.  I didn't get rich off of it, but it was a fair supplement to the clan pay and my side gig.

I would like to see boot, glove and belt crafts for chalton hide in the more craft-heavy new guilds, a more common resource like that would have more people crafting it to make some money. It wouldn't make much, it would be one of those small jobs where people could both feed themselves and stay poor. This considering you could turn a few in somewhere every day for off-peakers, like in Storm. Fixing chalton goods would be more visible than fixing other things.