There are a number of no-karma subguilds which have no higher karma equivalent.
For examples of ones which do ...
Armorcrafter > Master Armorsmith = More goodies in the master version, plus mastercrafting
Crafter > Master crafter = More goodies, mastercrafting
Bard > Minstrel = Crafting, mastercrafting, more variety and utility
But examples of ones which have no higher equivalent ...
Archer
Forester
Linguist (which I've never taken and have no idea how you would exploit)
Do future plans include giving a beefed up version of these subguilds to the list of choices for higher karma? Such as a master archer, master forester, etc?
Archer - Master Hunter? Maybe? I guess, expand it to all the ranged skills now that we have three and the relevant crafting skills that go with that? Seems like a lot of stuff eventually. Hmm.
Forester - Hmm. Don't know what to call it but cool idea. I like Forester. Maybe sneak? Or hide to hide in the forests well?
Linguist - Uhh. I guess start with all languages, a bit of that merchant language that I can't remember and accents. Maybe Nrizkt to just mess with people. I don't know what to do here. Haggle maybe?
Forester would need high as fuck scan.
Archer would need master archery/crossbow I guess.
Linguist would need reading and writing, I think. A coded way of getting language that you can read+write.
An upgraded Linguist would need to start with the same languages it gets, plus Templar-language (because its the only other semi-commonly heard language that someone would have access to understand/study in certain roles without special app) as well as a high as shit haggle. If you can talk in different languages, and find the best one + accent for a merchant to like you, boom... haggle.
Probably more of a Master Trader or something.
If I had my way, I'd have a 2 karma variant of archer and forester who could mastercraft. Right now, new bows are only going to come from a merchant who has branched bowmaking (or started with archer, I suppose). With the changes now to slings, crossbows, and archery, I've really been wanting to make some bows.
Woodworking, well, it's fun and cool but I don't know any way to expand it. Mastercrafting axes, however. Epic stuff.
Linguist, I'd love to see a 2 or even 3 karma "archivist" variant. Speaks a variety of languages AND can learn to read/write in them. Yes, I know literacy is an issue in the game setting, but I'm sure some lore variant could be handled for a special role for that.
Nomad has no equal. Master trader (the only 2 karma equivalent) can't craft anything and doesn't even get haggle all that high. Pilot is in there, which is neat, but no indie is ever going to get to drive a wagon.
Bounty hunter is another one of those weird ones that only would ever synergize with a warrior-type. It's the type of subguild you're really only going to take for advanced ride, which is kind of a shame. SO much potential there for epic flavor.
EDIT: I see some of the rest of you are thinking along the same lines I am.
Quote from: Riev on February 01, 2017, 11:26:44 AM
An upgraded Linguist would need to start with the same languages it gets, plus Templar-language (because its the only other semi-commonly heard language that someone would have access to understand/study in certain roles without special app)
Tatlum is, to my knowledge, not accessible to anyone at all except templars. But maybe the master linguist could gain the ability to use all semi-common accents - southern, northern, tribal and rinthi? And secret read / write, yeah. That would be awesome.
Yeah, I'd reserve Templar secret language for an aide assigned to work for a Templar.
"You're a master archivist. Here's a book for you. Get to work."
>A blue robed Templar hands you a book.
>examine book
>It is blue with a blue binding. The title says, "Learn Tatlum in 40 days or less through this simple trick".
I've heard of people accidentally popping Tatlum before. I just figured its the only other language out there, unless we add in Mirrukim, Sirihish, Allundean, Bendune, and Cavilish into one CGP-required role, but people they TECHNICALLY can all be learned in game, an Advanced Linguist would still need something more. Tatlum sounded like the only other language that could ever be spoken in earshot of a 'regular' person that through time and study, could be some-what discerned.
Quote from: Akaramu on February 01, 2017, 11:32:38 AM
Quote from: Riev on February 01, 2017, 11:26:44 AM
An upgraded Linguist would need to start with the same languages it gets, plus Templar-language (because its the only other semi-commonly heard language that someone would have access to understand/study in certain roles without special app)
Tatlum is, to my knowledge, not accessible to anyone at all except templars. But maybe the master linguist could gain the ability to use all semi-common accents - southern, northern, tribal and rinthi? And secret read / write, yeah. That would be awesome.
My only issue is it would be maybe kind of the same as everyone knowing, oh...your a linguist. You can probably read/write. I don't know. Just playing devil's advocate.
Other than that, I'd love to have read/write available. I missed making a journal of my adventures with my first Whiran WAY back when.
Enhanced Linguist - 1/2 the time/skill checks required to pick up and progress through a language.
Quote from: Miradus on February 01, 2017, 11:37:18 AM
Yeah, I'd reserve Templar secret language for an aide assigned to work for a Templar.
"You're a master archivist. Here's a book for you. Get to work."
>A blue robed Templar hands you a book.
>examine book
>It is blue with a blue binding. The title says, "Learn Tatlum in 40 days or less through this simple trick".
Not even then, because other templars wouldn't want that one templar's aide to be able to overhear them. Or read any sekrit templar stuff.
AFAIK templars aren't even allowed to speak tatlum in front of commoners. If someone picked it up by accident, a templar screwed up and there's a good chance that commoner is going to die.
That's actually some pretty cool lore.
Why are there not more plots associated with that? :)
Quote from: Miradus on February 01, 2017, 12:48:51 PM
That's actually some pretty cool lore.
Why are there not more plots associated with that? :)
One time Samos was speaking tatlum in front of me, and I thought to myself "I bet with time I could figure out what those Highborn are talking about".
The Highlord disagreed.
Archer++
Get the skills to craft all ranged weapons and ammo to master, plus the ability to shoot all to mid-high Advanced.
Possible Names: Bowyer, One Man Siege Engine.
Forester++
Same as a forester, but with master lumberjacking and woodworking, and a higher cap on the other stuff. Also, no sub as of yet has master axemaking or clubmaking (?name). Foresters would make sense for axes. Maybe clubs would be justifyable? If they need something else, maybe give them scan and listen to go with hunt. Alternately poison and brew to keep with the wise forest-savvy theme.
Possible names: Lumberjack, Woodsman, Forrest Gump.
Linguist++
I personally don't think there needs to be a ++ for this. Linguists get 1 or 2 bonus languages (depending on race), plus advantages to learning new languages and accents. That's a pretty spiffy package. I'm not convinced that there needs to be a class who knows all the languages right off the bat. Especially not Tatlum. If you think your character should know Tatlum, then you're a special app case plain and simple.
I can vibe on a Dune Trader type sub, for non-merchants who came up in the bazaars and markets of the world. Cavilish, Bendune, value and haggle of course. If it's an extended sub, maybe throw in listen and scan and a few simple crafts, and/or language/accent learning bonuses.
As far as I know, even slave scribes are not permitted to learn Tatlum. It's the language of the Templarate and they enforce that without compromise. An extended/enhanced subguild with this language doesn't make sense, and the cases where special applications could work would probably limited to clans that are not open for play.
There's also no extended sub-guild with Sap. There's some other holes I can't think of at the moment.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 01, 2017, 06:11:15 PM
There's also no extended sub-guild with Sap. There's some other holes I can't think of at the moment.
Slipknives branch sap.
Quote
Slipknives begin play with sneak, hide, backstab, and poisoning - the former two can be learned to the level of master, while the latter two can be learned to the level of advanced. By practicing their ability to hide, slipknives learn to throw weapons at their opponents from the shadows, and can achieve the level of journeyman. With proper training in backstabbing, slipknives will learn to sap, and can achieve a journeyman level in that skill.
Perhaps there does need to be a sap variant of slipknife however, basically thug+.
Maybe give them access to a reasonably high bash, kick and disarm or something plus all the thug skills.
Names: Criminal, slugger, crimbimbal?
Brute:
You get...
Subdue, haggle,value, sap, and...sneak.
Extended Linguist is Scribe subguild, has literacy in one language, plus all common languages and accents.
I think there are 3 ext. Subguilds that get sap.
Personally I'm against a guild/subguild that grants R/W and Tatlum.
What I prefer is some viable and flexible methods for PCs to learn these things while playing. With Staff giving an assurance that plots that involve such things will be supported, or at the least entertained if adequately played out. I'm not saying they arent now. I do not know. But they might be under blanket NO, that isn't wildly publicized.
Tatlum can be learned by anyone. The fact that only Templar's seem to know it is not an indication of some OOC restriction to learning it, it's a reflection of how intensely enforced the secrecy of Tatlum is in the Known World.
Tatlum can be learned the same way Heshrak can be learned.
Only the Templars arent swearing at you in it.
Atleast hopefully not.
A spec app wanting to know Heshrak should probably have the same legitness as one wanting to know Tatlum.
I mean if you hunt enough gith under the right circumstances you might accidentally pop Heshrak.
Quote from: Hauwke on February 02, 2017, 12:46:32 AM
I mean if you hunt enough gith under the right circumstances you might accidentally pop Heshrak.
Same with templars.
Yup. If you hunt and skin enough Templars, you'll eventually learn Tatlum.
Gotta get them Templarskin boots bro.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 01, 2017, 06:21:23 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 01, 2017, 06:11:15 PM
There's also no extended sub-guild with Sap. There's some other holes I can't think of at the moment.
Slipknives branch sap.
Quote
Slipknives begin play with sneak, hide, backstab, and poisoning - the former two can be learned to the level of master, while the latter two can be learned to the level of advanced. By practicing their ability to hide, slipknives learn to throw weapons at their opponents from the shadows, and can achieve the level of journeyman. With proper training in backstabbing, slipknives will learn to sap, and can achieve a journeyman level in that skill.
Ah, yeah. I mean start with it. Basically to bypass having to deal with branching the skill you have to take a regular sub-guild.
An extended subguild with incomparable language learning speed, and advanced elvish.
As it stands right now, if you speak advanced elvish, everyone's going to think you're a breed.
Or a couple of other subguilds where it makes sense to have advanced and journeyman elvish, like I dunno, the prostitute subguild. ~Can't be picky!~
I mean I have popped Allundean on nearly every character that hung around elves and actually got moderately good at it so thats a moot point I guess.
That being said, I would personally enjoy being that guy who talks shit about you in a different language to the guy right beside you so its whatever.
I could get behind thug++. Cutpurse and slipknife both cap out at Journeyman, which is right around where the original thug subguild caps out. It's been a while since I've ran around sapping people, but I'm pretty sure the advantages don't outweigh the disadvantages at that point...
Brute : Sap, kick, bash, subdue, sneak, hide? (Bludgeon?)
On a side note, it's kind of funny that Templars can't speak Tatlum around commoners on the off chance that some kitchen scullion might randomly go all Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan on them and learn that Tek is actually suffering from a bad case of gonorrhea.
I wonder where does the "Templars 'cant' speak tatlum in front of commoners come from" They speak tatlum all the time. Put a pair of templars that are pissed off at each other in the same room and there'll be Tatlum thrown back and forth guarantee it.
Plenty of subs get sap to start with.
I would like to see a master bowyer subguild. (Archer extended sub with the same level of archery but master dyemaking/ bowmaking)
Idk, I've never played a Templar and I rarely play as one of their lackeys. Someone else mentioned that it was a rule. I can't verify whether or not that's true.
OOC, it comes from the coded fear that someone will randomly pop the language. IC, the easy answer is that they're afraid that a servant, given years of time and exposure, might pick up on it and learn to speak it. But if you think of it that way, there's a weird catch-22 at play; what's the point of having a secret language if you can't speak it in front of people who don't already know it?
See the helpfile on Tatlum for more ideas as to why it might be illegal. ;) Shade, profit, and George Bush did 9/11.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on February 02, 2017, 10:35:27 AM
what's the point of having a secret language if you can't speak it in front of people who don't already know it?
You can't be spied on by people who shouldn't be in a room with you, but are hiding there anyway. ;)
The language code for PCs isn't very realistic. Templar slaves / trusted servants hear tatlum for years and years without learning how to speak it. PC's, though...
Quote from: Akaramu on February 02, 2017, 11:34:52 AM
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on February 02, 2017, 10:35:27 AM
what's the point of having a secret language if you can't speak it in front of people who don't already know it?
You can't be spied on by people who shouldn't be in a room with you, but are hiding there anyway. ;)
The language code for PCs isn't very realistic. Templar slaves / trusted servants hear tatlum for years and years without learning how to speak it. PC's, though...
Templar slaves and trusted servants areN'T dumb enough to try to figure it out...
PCs though... ;)
Edited for clarity.
I bet that Templar servants know when a Templar screams "Aggafoodarb!" angrily, that it means something bad is about to happen to someone.
Quote from: Miradus on February 02, 2017, 01:06:58 PM
I bet that Templar servants know when a Templar screams "Aggafoodarb!" angrily, that it means something bad is about to happen to someone.
The smart ones will only quietly get out of the way, that's why they are trusted. Least that's my thoughts.
Quote from: wizturbo on February 02, 2017, 12:26:06 AM
Tatlum can be learned by anyone. The fact that only Templar's seem to know it is not an indication of some OOC restriction to learning it, it's a reflection of how intensely enforced the secrecy of Tatlum is in the Known World.
This
Quote from: Inks on February 02, 2017, 10:21:08 AM
Plenty of subs get sap to start with.
No extended subs.
Quote from: Dar on February 02, 2017, 01:18:17 AM
Yup. If you hunt and skin enough Templars, you'll eventually learn Tatlum.
You forgot the eating their tongues part.
today I learned that Tatlum is the secret language of the templars by reading the GDB.
Quote from: 650Booger on February 08, 2017, 11:18:04 AM
today I learned that Tatlum is the secret language of the templars by reading the GDB.
I mean, it says it on the helpfiles if you were being serious.
The secret language Rangers use to discuss things is Heshrak.
Heshrak is Gith speak. And nzkrit or whatever is mantis. Its all in the helpfiles and such.
Quote from: Hauwke on February 09, 2017, 06:37:54 AM
Heshrak is Gith speak. And nzkrit or whatever is mantis. Its all in the helpfiles and such.
I know it is. You've gotta earn it. ;D