A simple discussion.
Do you think it would benefit to allow people with X amount of karma to have more than one PC at a time?
Rules for the 'Second PC' would be as following:
*They would be on a Staff approved basis.
*They would fill roles such as: enemy combat roles (raider, gith), free/slave gladiator roles (buffed as to avoid the grind and pop them into arena games), flavor roles that fill a niche (escaped slaves, dissenting Commoner rabble, plot PC that would otherwise be an NPC).
*Wouldn't be a full time PC, the understanding that they are for a purpose and little else.
*Couldn't be in conflict with the Player's primary PC (An escaped slave vs a Borsail 'slaver').
My personal feelings are that people attach themselves too much to the one PC in these instances, so why not let people play more than one, especially with Tuluk closed and the 'cross contamination' there sort of a non-issue?
Thoughts and opinions abound. Ready, go.
From what I understand, staff already allows you to temporarily store your current character to play one of these limited flavor roles for as long as they're needed. I'm not sure that parallel PCs (as in, playable at the same time without storage) would help player to player interaction. It can already be hard to get ahold of PCs you need to speak to for any reason - if they played a different character on top of their primary one, this would be even more difficult. Especially if the flavor role turned out to be more fun to play.
I would really, really love to say yes, but I gotta say no.
I think even a gith role could complicate things. What if you kill, or need to kill, but dont, someone your other PC knows
Or learn that some PC is a magicker?
Gladiator roles would be cool, but I dunno if they're worth the extra staff effort.
No.
Quote from: Akaramu on December 03, 2016, 06:36:16 PM
From what I understand, staff already allows you to temporarily store your current character to play one of these limited flavor roles for as long as they're needed. I'm not sure that parallel PCs (as in, playable at the same time without storage) would help player to player interaction. It can already be hard to get ahold of PCs you need to speak to for any reason - if they played a different character on top of their primary one, this would be even more difficult. Especially if the flavor role turned out to be more fun to play.
To me it seems like more effort to store a PC, get the 2nd PC in game, bump up the stats, let them play around for a few weeks, then unstore the 1st PC.
In my mind -- Say with Gladiators -- They would only log in to play them for Arena games. But as it is a secondary character, the 'to the death' matches wouldn't be so bothersome or scary. It's the purpose of the PC.
After the game, they log in and resume business as usual with their primary PC.
To me it's like an actor being in multiple performances.
Yeah, but... how would you solve the availability issue? What if lord templar Hardnose has so much fun playing a slave that they only log onto their templar for 30 minutes a day? It would suck for everyone else.
Even if this was limited to players who aren't in sponsored roles... even mundane Joes are often needed for other people's plots. Like the assassin with a contract on Joe Grebber, who is never around anymore bcause he plays his gladiator 7 hours a day.
I'm not going to mention the trust issues because plenty of others brought them up already.
Absolutely not, unequivocably not. There already exists players who will do whatever they can to "git gud" - why give them more rope with which to hang themselves? Stop giving the exceptions excuses to justify their exceptionableness. "Staff said I could play my independent half-elven merchant - it's not my fault that House Salarr didn't notice the ears and hired him juuuuuuust when my warrior was about to put in an order for a set of tembo hide armor."
I'm not even speaking on the offchance 99% of players wouldn't do this, and only 1% would, so why punish the majority for the mistakes of the minority. I'm talking about making the staff have to babysit the whole thing just because that 1% exists.
Staff has better things to do. Like bring me my flyin shap and return sorcerers to the game.
I understand the idea and with the conflict threads up understand where the OP is coming from.
I would have to agree that such roles would support conflict other players could enjoy but feel that a special rolecall would suffice for any short term plots. Also, if the mood is that such characters would be a boon to the game then lets start seeing raiders done well IG that would fortify the thoughts that such roles could spark up meaningful roleplay. They would be challenging to do to say in the least but if it's worth the effort then lets try and see how it goes?
Nah.
This was a while ago, but it used to be that players could have their regular pc and a gladiator that they'd only log in to during the games. I never saw am issue with that.
Quote from: tortall on December 03, 2016, 08:32:34 PM
This was a while ago, but it used to be that players could have their regular pc and a gladiator that they'd only log in to during the games. I never saw am issue with that.
That's already possible. Sponsored "temporary" roles are already a thing. What's being suggested is something else and - in my personal opinion based on my experience with games that allow it, it's also something nefarious (though probably not intended that way by the OP).
I don't really trust staff or fellow players OOCly, ICly I give them all the benefit of the doubt, and nobody cares about the results. I say, no. I say players with karma have enough privaleges as it is, and I trust neither them, nor staff, to police it effectively. Besides, how can you even have two PCs if you're properly immersed in one of them?
Have you ever tried playing poker or chess against yourself? Try it sometime.
While I don't think anyone would actually fully manipulate it or anything, I think it's kind of a bad idea to put players into a position where conflicts of interest are that likely.
Gladiators weren't allowed to interact with the outside world much aside from the games. They had no bearing on anything. Their sole purpose was to provide a show and be sponsored by outside sources. There was no way for them to really be in a position where their actions could ruin or promote the other pc. That goes away when you have them actively engaging in interwoven plots.
Again, I don't think anyone would do it on purpose. But that spot is one that flirts with embedded motivations to a degree I don't think is really that healthy.
oh god no please take this mindset back to mushes where it belongs armageddon is literally the only actual RPI on the internet right now don't do this
Quote from: Lutagar on December 03, 2016, 09:24:08 PM
oh god no please take this mindset back to mushes where it belongs armageddon is literally the only actual RPI on the internet right now don't do this
::)
I'd rather we kept this kind of thing limited to staff role calls for special chars. Otherwise, there's not enough trust and accountability for me, and perhaps others, to feel comfortable allowing it.
No. Let's not create more instances of karma envy, or a conflict of interest.
No.
Props to OP for broaching what was destined to be an unfavorable proposal.
While I'd certainly enjoy playing multiple characters (like usually is done on other muds), I play the game I'm given. I personally don't think this would be much of a positive for Arm.
No.
In a permadeath RPI the temptation for abuse would be too great for a few, and that would ruin it for all.
mule/storage characters, pocket healers, etc.
Also, PCs my character needs to talk to would only be available half as much.
No. For the conflict of interest listed above. I've played multicharacter allowed RPI MUDs and they suck for that very reason: breach of OOC infecting IC.
Everyone is saying no and so my natural inclination is to play devil's advocate.
When we say 'open to abuse', what exactly would the abuse be that isn't being abused now? If 1.Miradus dies somewhere do you think 2.Miradus is going to run over there and loot the corpse? There's nothing really preventing that now if you die in a relatively out-of-the-way place. And there's certainly nothing keeping you from hitting up your buddy on AIM and saying, "Hey, I died 3 rooms west of the rock shaped like a dong in the Salt Flats. Go loot me, k?"
Or if I want to kill Joe Bob who is in Salarr I make another character and join Salarr to track their movements? That's probably going on now already with 20 years worth of OOC connections.
I can't really think of any abuse this would allow that isn't likely already. And more so, with the abuse now being spread across multiple players via OOC means, it's harder to catch. At least two characters on the same account would be easier to catch.
But aside from abuse, there's the roleplay element. Would having two characters diminish my roleplay? I play THREE muds. Right now when I get bored with one of my characters and need a little break, I go play a character on a different mud. Am I incapable of switching characters like that? I don't think so. So right now I already have the ability to play different characters, but I have to go to other muds to do so, which removes me from Armageddon while I'm doing so. You already have one less person to interact with.
Okay, so if I wanted to implement a system of this, here's how I'd do it:
Allow players to use a special app to store a current character with the ability to unstore later, allowing them to play someone else for awhile if they get bored with their current role. I would require a RL month between storing and unstoring. Characters in storage would continue to age.
If you've got longevity down, there's no reason you'd need more than 3-4 characters in a RL year meaning the special app process would let you switch back and forth between a couple of roles over the course of the year.
I wouldn't mind this if it was 1. not tied to karma - someone else already pointed out that people with karma have enough advantages, not fun for new players. 2. if it was very specific role niches that dovetailed with overarching story plots. Maybe make it a role of the month or new role per RL season, whatever. Then tie the role into plots. Like the gith tablelands plot? If it'd used that system, any player could have 'sometimes' played a gith. Make it the same with raider groups, invading beasts, etc. Something which will not interact in any meaningful way with any current 'real' characters, and instead helps drive home the danger of the wilderness. Keep gladiators open as a role you can jump into at all times that there is a Borsail noble role open who does arena games, and keep those just as restricted as the periodic gladiator alts were. The problem of lack of availability is real. The problem of bleedover is real. I think that both can be circumvented or overcome if the other character is a basically nonsocial conflict avatar tied to stories that are not everyday pc stories.
Another option would be to open up a class of people who were more-than-players and less-than-staff (sort of like Builders and Helpers) who would be allowed such an extra (flavor) character. You'd apply for the position. There'd be a limited number available. You'd be expected to provide flavor and if you stopped you'd have to give up the spot, etc.
Such flavor characters could also be limited to crap stats.
Examples: I drunk gossip at the bar; a breed-hater at the bar; a crazy old man in the rinth; a crazy guy in the woods; a retired Kuraci sergeant who tells funny stories; etc.
When you put that spin on it, Bardlyone, and Nauta, it does seem more appealing.
Quote from: nauta on December 04, 2016, 06:32:32 PM
Another option would be to open up a class of people who were more-than-players and less-than-staff (sort of like Builders and Helpers) who would be allowed such an extra (flavor) character. You'd apply for the position. There'd be a limited number available. You'd be expected to provide flavor and if you stopped you'd have to give up the spot, etc.
Such flavor characters could also be limited to crap stats.
Examples: I drunk gossip at the bar; a breed-hater at the bar; a crazy old man in the rinth; a crazy guy in the woods; a retired Kuraci sergeant who tells funny stories; etc.
I kind of like the sound of this. Or, alternately, the power to animate ONLY certain NPCs without rank or influence. Staff could flag the NPCs that are okay to be animated by those less-than-staff helpers; gladiators and slaves could be created to also be part of that special NPC pool. This could also help lonely PCs in insolated roles such as certain tribes with a very low PC count.
Personally, I'd be much more motivated to play a tribal if there was a chance to roleplay with an NPC when no other clan PCs are around.
Edit to add: I also have a feeling we have a bunch of triple A roleplayers who don't have the time for a full staff position, but would love to help animate the flagged NPC pool from time to time.
Lol. That hasn't worked out in my experiences either, the NPC thing, but I'm butter and jaded and think play options are perfect right now for Arm.
Blame other muds.
Quote from: boog on December 04, 2016, 07:51:55 PM
Lol. That hasn't worked out in my experiences either, the NPC thing, but I'm butter and jaded and think play options are perfect right now for Arm.
Blame other muds.
I think Armageddon has more trustworthy players than other roleplay MUDs do. Butter, huh? Mmmh. *eyes boog hungrily*
Nah, it's not even about lack of trustworthiness imo, but instead about the fact that you're removing people from their prime role, which I get. That's why I suggested it only be possible in the context of it serving the stories of either Staff directly (ala the gith thing) or else act as roles that are literally not playable (slave gladiator) which help sponsored roles better represent their niches.
Quote from: bardlyone on December 04, 2016, 07:58:36 PM
Nah, it's not even about lack of trustworthiness imo, but instead about the fact that you're removing people from their prime role, which I get.
Isn't staff in exactly this position, though? They play their own PCs and ALSO animate NPCs. Maybe the time spent animating could be limited.
god damn autocorrect
Maybe Armageddon does have a better playerbase. I dunno. I just feel this clinging stagnation lately and I'm not sure how to fix it.
Quote from: boog on December 04, 2016, 08:05:24 PM
I just feel this clinging stagnation lately and I'm not sure how to fix it.
Quote from: Akaramu on December 04, 2016, 08:02:11 PM
Quote from: bardlyone on December 04, 2016, 07:58:36 PM
Nah, it's not even about lack of trustworthiness imo, but instead about the fact that you're removing people from their prime role, which I get.
Isn't staff in exactly this position, though? They play their own PCs and ALSO animate NPCs. Maybe the time spent animating could be limited.
They also play Resource PCs, much as I described in the OP.
Quote from: Miradus on December 04, 2016, 05:54:37 PMif I want to kill Joe Bob who is in Salarr I make another character and join Salarr to track their movements? That's probably going on now already with 20 years worth of OOC connections.
Just in case any newbies actually think this is normal: Plenty of people have played for years and years and not built up contacts and/or don't use their OOC contacts to abuse the game.
Ideas for noble houses:
Fale (performance only) bard - You can log in and practice performances with existing pcs, but you are otherwise basically house property. You cannot leave the Estate unless you are performing a sanctioned piece/performance.
Oashi (escort only) elite - You can log in and train with pcs but only in the elite training hall. The only times you are allowed to leave the Elite Barracks are to escort your noble. Whether it is around the city or on trips to their out of city holdings.
Borsail (slave only) gladiator - You can log in and access areas only open to the other slave gladiator roles that were open. You may train with each other or be a showpiece for your noble if they wish to bring others with the influence/buying power in to try and sell you, and you may participate in any arena game that the current leadership signs off on.
(For currently closed houses)
Sath (slave only) scribe - You are allowed only in the Sath estate or the Allanaki library. You are capable of reading and/or writing the appropriate languages, but you are there to make updated copies of books or transcribe things for the nobility/templarate.
Tor (academy only) Scorpion - You exist to represent the unplayable forces of house Tor. The elite warriors that they are known for. You may sometimes be called upon for tasks such as special instruction of slave gladiators, special private training session for various nobles employees, or war/combat related RPTs that your house's current noble is leading or a part of.
Those are just some sort of 'sample' roles that I think would make great 2nd roles for people. They add to the virtual world in roles that pcs really can't (Yes, as a Fale aide, you can 'also' be a bard, but it is not the same as being primarily tasked with performances). They have predefined limits. The represent known assets which are currently virtual. They have a heavy restriction on their interaction with any normal pcs outside of the scope of preapproved interaction with a sponsored role using you as a resource and getting to make that call.
Here's why I don't like those roles ...
A second character is a throwaway under the system described.
There may actually be a player who wants to play one of those types of roles (or something similar) as their main.
If you let someone take it up as a side role, you diminish someone who wants it for the main.
Miradus hits the nail on the head. Secondary characters take up roles primaries would. No thanks.
Quote from: Miradus on December 04, 2016, 09:24:40 PM
Here's why I don't like those roles ...
A second character is a throwaway under the system described.
There may actually be a player who wants to play one of those types of roles (or something similar) as their main.
If you let someone take it up as a side role, you diminish someone who wants it for the main.
When was the last slave role call? When was the last literate slave role call? When was the last time that the Tor Scorpions were opened? When was the last time that anyone was allowed to play a slave gladiator as their main? When was the last time that the Oashi elite were open?
Quick point here: Those are roles that due to the RULES OF THE GAME you cannot have as your main, want them or not.
But by all means, don't let people play them in short bursts either.
I feel like I should add that many times over the years I have tried to join Fale as A BARD and not an aide. That also doesn't happen.
But by all means. Go on.
Quote from: bardlyone on December 04, 2016, 09:44:37 PM
Quote from: Miradus on December 04, 2016, 09:24:40 PM
Here's why I don't like those roles ...
A second character is a throwaway under the system described.
There may actually be a player who wants to play one of those types of roles (or something similar) as their main.
If you let someone take it up as a side role, you diminish someone who wants it for the main.
When was the last slave role call? When was the last literate slave role call? When was the last time that the Tor Scorpions were opened? When was the last time that anyone was allowed to play a slave gladiator as their main? When was the last time that the Oashi elite were open?
Quick point here: Those are roles that due to the RULES OF THE GAME you cannot have as your main, want them or not.
But by all means, don't let people play them in short bursts either.
This is already true. You cannot play them in short bursts. Getting indignant just because someone likes this particular thing the way it already is, doesn't help your cause. Slaves are not open because slave roles always end up in storage, due to OOC frustration and boredom. I really HOPE the staff has something better to do than to even try -reading- an application for this kind of role, let alone approve one and oversee one.
Play a slave - and your "master" stores, or dies, or is on vacation for a week - play a gladiator and the Borsail running arena games is only available for play during hours that you are -not- available to play... etc. etc. etc. Now, play one of these roles, and actually WANT to log in once in awhile. And you do - and there's nothing to do, and no one to do it with, and you're not allowed to leave. You're allowed to sit there and wait for someone to show up and entertain you. Which - they might, or might not do - and might grow to resent, because that means their role is turning into a RL chore.
There is no need for players to have more than one character at a time. There is occasionally a *reason* to have more than one, and the staff already has that covered, because they already DO let people play second characters for special roles.
Yes, exactly. I wasn't being indignant. I was being sarcastic. Using the logic that these shouldn't be available as second roles when some of the ones listed already periodically are (see slave gladiators) because someone might want to play them as a main role, when the specific roles referred to are literally impossible to play as a main role, is ridiculous.
Yeah, it's a bit of a catch 22.
I'd rather personally have one of these roles as a secondary role, login to see if people are around to fulfill that secondary role's purpose, if not, go back to my primary PC.
bardly, take a chill pill, babe. Calm breathing!
Quote from: boog on December 04, 2016, 10:37:44 PM
bardly, take a chill pill, babe. Calm breathing!
I'm not upset, I just don't understand how it's a valid argument to say that such things shouldn't be allowed for secondary roles because people might want them for primary roles when the game has actively moved to prevent people from having them as primary roles. Its like, really, secondary roles is probably all these roles will ever be allowed for.
I get frustrated due to lack of being able to grok the logic of others a fair percentage of the time. Other people often interpret my frustration as anger or indignance when it's usually frustration and occasionally sarcasm borne of that frustration. :/
Then maybe it's time to look at clan limits, not offering multiple characters for 'secondary' roles.
Quote from: boog on December 05, 2016, 12:38:38 AM
Then maybe it's time to look at clan limits, not offering multiple characters for 'secondary' roles.
I dunno. We can't fabricate more players out of thin air, but we can utilize good players who can be trusted to not cross-contaminate IC/OOC info in multiple roles (IMHO). Most of us have done it for years. Obviously not the popular opinion.
I would looooooooooove being able to play flavor characters!
I've had an itch to play a cranky old bigot who finds some way to bitch and say things used to be "better back in the day" when literally anything happens. Then they basically just make up stuff and tell complete lies of "the good old days" when elves weren't allowed in cities, or when magickers would get jumped for walking in the Gaj, or the Great Blonde Reckoning of last age, when it was required to throw all blonde babies out of windows because of a rampant magicker curse.
That PC would only have such a limited span and little-to-no long-term potential, so I can't bring myself to make it my only character, but they wouldn't even need a single skill or any power/influence whatsoever to play the concept.
Quote from: In Dreams on December 05, 2016, 12:57:23 AM
I would looooooooooove being able to play flavor characters!
I've had an itch to play a cranky old bigot who finds some way to bitch and say things used to be "better back in the day" when literally anything happens. Then they basically just make up stuff and tell complete lies of "the good old days" when elves weren't allowed in cities, or when magickers would get jumped for walking in the Gaj, or the Great Blonde Reckoning of last age, when it was required to throw all blonde babies out of windows because of a rampant magicker curse.
That PC would only have such a limited span and little-to-no long-term potential, so I can't bring myself to make it my only character, but they wouldn't even need a single skill or any power/influence whatsoever to play the concept.
There is absolutely nothing preventing you from playing that character. Roll up any guild/subguild. Keep your newbie clothes, since you need your starting sids to cover the cost of food and water til you're finished playing that role. You could even put them in the bank and only take out 50 sids every RL day - a couple strips of meat at the butcher, a single ale so the bartender doesn't get annoyed that you're taking up a spot and not buying anything (he really SHOULD start getting more annoyed when the same people occupy the bar stools and never buy anything but that's a whole nother topic), and whatever is left over, you build up til you have enough to top off your waterskin.
Spend the entire time in the bar, or walking to the waterseller/butcher/bank. When you finally get tired of playing this role, just store him and roll up another character.
Unless the role is an exploding offer like gladiator, I vote no.
It would be very cool for staff to open up a rolecall for 6 or 8 temporary raider/gith/mantis PC's. You have one RL week, sunday to sunday, to play these characters. Raise hell, live or die, burn down the southland, but most importantly, make people fear the desert.
I feel like that would do to Arm what battlegrounds did to World of Warcraft.
Disposable pvp where only one side has something to lose? No thanks.
I think it would be fun to have a "flavor" role on the side to help you NOT be in your current character for a couple days.
However, I also think this break from a character would inevitably lead a small number of people to really like the RP of their secondary character. I think we'd see more storage, or odd risk-taking of primary roles. We have a small playerbase, so it wouldn't be rampant, but I think it would be a problem.
Honestly, I think there could stand to be more Gladiator roles, or "sponsored secret roles" that allow for a "2nd" character on a limited basis. Providing staff have time to help guide it.
I'd be okay with temporary storage. Be okay with multiple PC's(not logged in at same time) for trustworthy players as well. Not really seeing the issues it could cause that permanent storage, death and suicide don't already cause.
When it comes conflicts of interest... Do you even roleplay? Do you really think there's no way of establishing who trustworthy players are?
As for losing a player to their secondary PC... Players are not beholden to you. They do not owe you their presence. And it's likely you will permanently lose their presence if they get bored with the current PC as it stands. This would allow them to come back.
Karma envy? Maybe follow the guidelines set out for gaining Karma if it's really an issue for you.
Those who lack trust in staff and fellow players kind of make me roll my eyes. I'm not sure how you roleplay at all with such little faith. I mean, the possibilities for abuse are already staggering with that sort of mindset.
We have had temporary roles, typically for the duration of an RPT, which players could fill with a secondary character until the RPT was over, and then go back to playing their current character. There were opportunities like this recently, and future opportunities are not out of the question.
That's probably about the extent to which players will ever have "multiple" characters.
I'm simply not interested in making karma more top-heavy. For me, it's not an issue of abuse - high-karma players are definitely considered trustworthy, and the system is becoming more meritocratic overall - where that high karma doesn't stay around if we begin to have trust issues with a high-karma player - compared to a decade ago, when you could get karma from being in a relationship with a staff member or becoming staff yourself. There are checks and balances now, and most players are where they should be, on a karma track (upward or downward) they should be on.
It's an issue of fairness and balance. The karma scale is already long-established as a ladder that unlocks race and guild/subguild options as you play. It's already not supposed to be the end goal of players. Put simply, the more we add alluring things to the top of the ladder, the more it becomes the end goal of players to reach the top, instead of simply having fun and letting everything else happen naturally.
The karma scale is much simpler (and frankly, far more tolerable) if we don't add nebulous bonuses to the top of it where players get special loosely-defined perks. Races and subguilds are solidly defined. Being able to play a second PC in any secondary role you want isn't particularly so.
Quote from: Nergal on December 05, 2016, 10:55:22 AM
That's probably about the extent to which players will ever have "multiple" characters.
What about the aforementioned less-than-staff but more-than-player helpers animating NPCs from a limited NPC pool (flagged for their use) including slaves and gladiators? I totally understand why multiple characters are a no-no, but I thought the NPC idea had merit.
No.
The issue with players animating NPCs is similar to the issue of using vNPCs in emotes. With vNPCs you are already limited to pure flavor, so animating NPCs for the same flavor effect (which would be the limitation, due to fairness) isn't significantly different.
Staff are happy to animate NPCs on request if it makes sense to do so. Sometimes this has to be pre-arranged, sometimes a wish will suit (depending on the situation).
I think it would be okay for a few people to be given access to echos, for example (big if and all)
Lets say that player A has been playing since the very start of Arm, has displayed solid rp skills and dependability to stay IC. Has proven time and again they can be trusted, perhaps this player could be given access to echos, just a simple thing that they are limited on, they could just have it so that that random breed at the gaj can bitch about his day then brood and whine some more with actual words rather than simply existing.
I've seen players do some wonders with just emote to set the scene.
Like staring up at a ridgeline to see humanoid silhouettes or pausing to listen to a distant roar of a hunting tok when on the plains.
I don't know that giving them room echoes is needed. It's a collaborative thing amongst people who trust each other to roleplay.
The thing about a room echo is that, when you see it, you know someone is present with authority to load mobs and give you some !FUN!.
I think the temporary roles thing is probably all that's needed, and I support it's use.
Back when there were two major play areas it would have been bosslike awesome. You could have had ready made enemies and redshirts if you needed.
Giving people alts seems against the particular culture of this game, but I would support it and have enjoyed having the option elsewhere to play something different and less consequential than a 'main' character as a change of pace.
The problem is that on a MUSH, where code doesn't matter as much as you can't run up and stab people to death, there is less potential for metagaming abuse, but imo people who want to metagame already have plenty of ways to do so, so I'm not sure how much extra risk alts would really create.
The only reason I would see this would be good would be when your pc has died/been stored and you might might wait four days for a new one, but that benefit is totally swamped for me by the fact that I could not possibly be invested in more than one of the two characters. The second would be a throwaway that would almost always be a trouble-causing elf that would make me feel guilty because I would hardly ever log on (i.e. make myself vulnerable to the dangers of being logged on.) Also they'd be a crazy elf usually, whispering sexy things in peoples' ears after >ooc: consent? Does that sound like someone I've invested time and energy in?
Karma envy is something I had once--- when I was new and hadn't played twenty hours of game time yet. I think unless you have something wrong with your moral compass you should be able to reach 2 karma, which means you can play six kinds of witches and all the mastercrafters and weapons specialists. The trick is you have to know to send in a karma review, after you get your longevity karma for not dying.
I remember staff saying that most people end up around 3-5 karma and few people get to 8. I personally feel that is fine, although I secretly wish a lesser psion and a lesser sorcerer subguild/guild would be made and be regularly appable for somewhat lower karmas. As it stands, most people don't get to play those, and their restrictiveness would keep them rare enough to keep immersions solid.
It isn't really hard to get karma, though. It's mostly about reposnibility: communicate with staff, bio, plot.
Karma for longevity. It's a thing, I hear.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/3e/3ee5e162a52439bc6c5ac9e16a0236a030c5b39b6cd9d4ab77cbd444a7895d13.jpg)
Quote from: boog on December 11, 2016, 02:03:05 PM
It isn't really hard to get karma, though. It's mostly about reposnibility: communicate with staff, bio, plot.
True, if you're patient. It took me years and years to reach my current karma level.
I never use bios and my plots, well... :-[ I seem to be an alright roleplayer, though. I guess that's enough.
Quote from: boog on December 11, 2016, 02:03:05 PM
It isn't really hard to get karma, though. It's mostly about reposnibility: communicate with staff, bio, plot.
It's not hard to get 2-3 karma
Beyond that it becomes exponentially more difficult
Sorry for that typo! Phone posting isn't for me.
But to be frank, I think it's easier these days than in the past, especially if you don't do silly stuff.
I guess mileage may vary!
I don't think staff particularly distrust most people.
If the one-pc limit were extended to two, I think you would see a weird amount of throwaways, but this could improve plots. People who are more willing to sell assassination attempts, people who sell spice in the city, more rinthis, more Tuluki sympathizers. If people were more willing to put themselves in danger, they could make things pretty fun. Hell, something the game environment could really use is more elves, and I think a lot of people don't see elves as their 'forever character.' Its something to play while planning an over-elaborate plot for something human down the road. Its something to play until you fail steal and get your hand cut off in jail. Or until the tenant of the room you always eat out of comes in while you are there because you forgot it was peaktime. Moar elves, forever.
Actually, I've changed my mind about the rule. I would be fine with it if you had to be a pureblooded elf to play a second. I'm a big immersions girl. A single line in the elf helpfile sets the tone for half of the game, and it has never been represented properly in the game. Maybe somewhat in Tuluk, never in Allanak.
God no. Please. As a reasonably high karma player I don't trust many players not to meta the shite out of this. Karma doesn't really come into it.
In this event Miradus is spot on. But there is no shame in storing if you don't enjoy your role.
This is a classic "victim of your own success" meme.
1. A problem arises.
2. You fix the problem.
3. Time passes.
4. People forget what the problem was.
5. People start questioning whether the fix was necessary.
That being said, you could make an argument that the "shitlord problem" is less prevalent, because there are plenty of multiplayer games online now that siphon off the shitlord population, compared to when Armageddon was born.
On the other hand, you could also make an argument that the aging playerbase makes it much more likely that abusive players will be savvy about their abuses, less likely to get caught red-handed, but be just as abusive.
Quote from: Inks on December 12, 2016, 02:55:48 AM
God no. Please. As a reasonably high karma player I don't trust many players not to meta the shite out of this. Karma doesn't really come into it.
In this event Miradus is spot on. But there is no shame in storing if you don't enjoy your role.
This sort of feeds into the idea that the more karma you have, the more jaded and mistrusting of the playerbase you are. I think that's a pretty crap concept to hold on to. Why not give our community the benefit of the doubt?
QuoteWhy not give our community the benefit of the doubt?
Because every time you do you'll end up disappointed.
Quote from: Lutagar on December 12, 2016, 11:19:19 AM
QuoteWhy not give our community the benefit of the doubt?
Because every time you do you'll end up disappointed.
Cool. Sorry, but why do you play the game exactly? I personally feel that people who have that opinion are part of the problem, not the solution.
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords. Did you really think you were going to get any answer other than that?
It unfortunately only takes being burned once or twice before your guard goes up.
I've had wonderful opportunities where both of us disengaged mid fight, even though I knew I was winning, and a near-friendship developed. But for every one of those, I have three or four "magicker in the wild just makes you move to a room with a bunch of aggressive beasts and traps you".
Quote from: Riev on December 12, 2016, 12:26:22 PM
It unfortunately only takes being burned once or twice before your guard goes up.
I've had wonderful opportunities where both of us disengaged mid fight, even though I knew I was winning, and a near-friendship developed. But for every one of those, I have three or four "magicker in the wild just makes you move to a room with a bunch of aggressive beasts and traps you".
Really? I mean, I've played heavily outdoors characters now for over a year, who traveled far and wide, encountered a lot of magickers and strangers, been attacked, etc. I rarely avoid the chance to ride up on someone and greet them, and I've only had one or two encounters (newbies in each case) that made me go: meh. It's anecdotes, but these sorts of anecdotes just don't add up to my experience inside the game.
Perhaps things were different back in the day, but all this talk of hack-and-slash play really makes me scratch my head.
Quote from: Riev on December 12, 2016, 12:26:22 PM
It unfortunately only takes being burned once or twice before your guard goes up.
I've had wonderful opportunities where both of us disengaged mid fight, even though I knew I was winning, and a near-friendship developed. But for every one of those, I have three or four "magicker in the wild just makes you move to a room with a bunch of aggressive beasts and traps you".
Eh, don't blame players for that. Old-skool Whirans were basically designed from the ground up to be nuisance magickers, whether it was intentional or not. Almost all 'gickers were glass cannons, in fact, so the only real option you had was to go balls-to-the-wall in an aggro scenario. The reverse also held true, though: I lost a pretty cool d-elf 'gicker PC once to an insta-charge code gangbang when I had magick active that was like, "hey, you can literally move faster than the eye can see." Didn't even get a chance to emote that "hey guys, I'm moving faster than you could possibly imagine, so there's literally no way your stupid inix is going to catch me and run me over," but you know...the code is shitty like that.
This thread isn't even about that, though.
My concern isn't people interacting badly in a PK situation. My concern is people using throwaway PCs to join clans, mine info, then log back in with their long-term badass PC to act on that info.
Obviously hardly anyone is going to be that BLATANT about it, though. The hard cases come when you have intel that will save your long-term PC's life. Will you be willing to allow your long-term PC to die, or will you fudge it and try to use OOC info to escape?
If your day-job is 50-day Byn Sarge and your side-gig is d-elf, and you've learned that the Red Kah Var Runners are setting up a sekrit hella magick ambush on the next RPT, are you going to go in blind like it's just a routine 'forage rock' mission, or are you going to take extra precautions or just cancel the RPT altogether?
Most of the time when I bump into someone in the wild, it's a hello how ya doing, we're both so bored we want to have a chat, we do, then we either go our separate ways or we become friends.
OCCASIONALLY I run into someone whose emotes and speech patterns lead me to conclude that the CHARACTER is a dick who may end up throat-stabbing me if I don't get on my way, which probably means a decent PLAYER is at the helm.
Separation of character and player is in order.
This isn't about quality rp. We have lots of that, wilderness or otherwise. It's about acting on information discovered by your alt pc or avenging your alt pc or his friends on your badass pc. It is bad.
So yeah...If you don't enjoy your pc at all just store and start anew you won't be judged.I don't want to be rping with a bunch of disposable alts. I want to be rping with PCs.
Quote from: Inks on December 12, 2016, 04:16:29 PM
This isn't about quality rp. We have lots of that, wilderness or otherwise. It's about acting on information discovered by your alt pc or avenging your alt pc or his friends on your badass pc. It is bad.
So yeah...If you don't enjoy your pc at all just store and start anew you won't be judged.I don't want to be rping with a bunch of disposable alts. I want to be rping with PCs.
How do you determine if someone is playing an 'alt' or a 'pc'?
How are you certain people are acting on information they've gotten surreptitiously?
If you assume the worst about people, you will find conclusions that assert your claims. As this isn't currently possible, i'm not sure how you can assume that people will abuse it and egregiously so. I suppose it's the opposite extreme to my naive assertion that people are more or less responsible, and those that aren't are pretty quickly fingered by Staff for their illicit behavior.
Why are PCs 'Less Disposable'? Isn't that part of the problem, insofar as this 'Massive Conflict' thread and so on? Treating PCs like they are this valuable commodity, when really they should just be another thread in the story tapestry that is Zalanthas?
Are the secondary alts going to have an * by their sdesc so we'll recognize them? :)
Do you think being able to app an alt at a 3 karma level would be alright? Or 6? It would have to be mundane and maybe other restrictions like not being allowed to join a clan. Frankly, most of the people I see in Allanak are clanned humans or clanned secret breeds, and people who haven't been here years or haven't been reading the gdb probably don't know that clanned jobs are the rarest and cushiest things a commoner can hope for.
I'm thinking 6 because at 3 you've basically just proven that you're capable of apping a half-giant without going into the Gaj main room in your starter clothes and emoting throwing people all over the place (I'm looking at you, whoever you were.)
I'm actually on the fence about this idea still.
I don't think alts are a good idea, period. Karma requirements don't change that.
You guys know this will never happen, right?
What if we could decide between one full character or two half characters with half the stats, half the skills, half the sdesc limit and half the starting money of a full character.
Agreed. Multicharacter MUDs are, quite frankly, shit.
-Person who played multicharacter MUDs for over 10 years.
(And, in fact, I think Delirium played one of the ones I played years and years and years ago. I know Socko did! It's how I met him and how I was brought here!)
The world isn't large enough for alts to have enough plot separation to avoid conflicts of interest.
If the playerbase were in the hundreds at peak time and there were geographic regions that were so isolated that even Whirans and Sorcs would have trouble traveling between them (along with barriers to psionic communication), it might be doable, with a geographic-separation stipulation for alts.
As it stands, with Allanak basically the only game in town...there is no way this would be a good idea. The restriction on OOC info usage would essentially be based on the honor system, and would be completely unenforceable except in a post hoc manner that undoubtedly would infuriate everyone involved in the process.
Quote from: boog on December 13, 2016, 03:26:03 PM
(And, in fact, I think Delirium played one of the ones I played years and years and years ago. I know Socko did! It's how I met him and how I was brought here!)
Was it Achaea? :)
Everyone abused their meta knowledge on there. It was bad. But then again, the game didn't have really big, story-defining secrets. Or permadeath. The worst thing you could do was to steal books from clan libraries and spread rumors about god X's behind-the-scenes religion being much more evil than its carefully maintained neutral facade. I tried to get back into it a few years ago but... after playing Armageddon for so long, H&S muds just aren't fun anymore. There's really no point to exp or leveling up.
It wasn't Achaea, and Synthesis is right. But even with hundreds of players (which we have, they just log on at different times of day), there'd be way too much conflict of interest.
I'd speak the name of the game, but I don't want anyone here to even bother checking it out. It's an incestuous pit of veteran players who play multiple, maxed out characters and have no staff direction. And the RP isn't enforced. And it's just... bad.
Quote from: boog on December 13, 2016, 03:36:47 PM
It wasn't Achaea, and Synthesis is right. But even with hundreds of players (which we have, they just log on at different times of day), there'd be way too much conflict of interest.
I'd speak the name of the game, but I don't want anyone here to even bother checking it out. It's an incestuous pit of veteran players who play multiple, maxed out characters and have no staff direction. And the RP isn't enforced. And it's just... bad.
and they're all insanely bitter and jaded and mean and more or less awful. When I think it gets bad here I should think of that place and feel so very relieved.
You guys are making me curious now. :(
PM? I won't actually play it, promise!
.
I see hundreds of guests browsing the forum during the evenings. Imagine if all of them played the game.
Quote from: Malken on December 13, 2016, 03:02:39 PM
What if we could decide between one full character or two half characters with half the stats, half the skills, half the sdesc limit and half the starting money of a full character.
lol
Quote from: Akaramu on December 13, 2016, 03:58:10 PM
I see hundreds of guests browsing the forum during the evenings. Imagine if all of them played the game.
I believe they're all spambots.
I agree with the sentiment that at most we should have temporary roles only (though I'd love to see more of those!). Syn pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter - policing OOC information sharing even with just people limited to a single character is difficult and problematic enough as it is.
Quote from: Akaramu on December 13, 2016, 03:58:10 PM
I see hundreds of guests browsing the forum during the evenings. Imagine if all of them played the game.
Just your usual web crawler/spambots, yeah (a web crawler is not a spambot, it's used by search engines like Google and Yahoo to index web pages and they can send hundreds of them a day depending on how many pages total the website has)
I dunno.
Staff play the game, sometimes multiple PCs, and they have pretty much omnipotent knowledge of the entire game world and what is going on.
Are they playing an 'Alt'? Or are they playing a 'PC'? Does it break the game that Staff members have PCs in the game?
Are Staff more trustworthy than players? What about ex-Staff? What about players with 8 Karma?
Just some questions for the jaded and insecure.
I think that the multiple character thing is an exception as opposed to a rule for most staff. Are you gonna ask for Stata as to which people on staff play? Who play one character? Who play more than one? Would it make the player base happy to know these things?
I feel like that doesn't have a whole bunch to do with this discussion. Staff are staff because they're trusted to be staff. Players are players and are only allowed one character. Players don't have the same trust placed in them, simply by being players. I'm sure there are checks and balances in place.
Quote from: boog on December 13, 2016, 07:12:47 PM
I think that the multiple character thing is an exception as opposed to a rule for most staff. Are you gonna ask for Stata as to which people on staff play? Who play one character? Who play more than one? Would it make the player base happy to know these things?
I feel like that doesn't have a whole bunch to do with this discussion. Staff are staff because they're trusted to be staff. Players are players and are only allowed one character. Players don't have the same trust placed in them, simply by being players. I'm sure there are checks and balances in place.
Sure -- I guess i'm saying that Staff aren't some other race of being. They're humans too -- And they seem quite capable of separating information they've learned on Staff from information their PCs will know. They aren't some race of Reptilian Overlords. Is there this assumption that Staff are 'better' players than players who play the game? I mean, I guess that is true in one sense, but there are plenty of great players, incredibly trustworthy, who never have and never will apply for Staff.
The point i'm making as well is -- We as players have no idea who Staff is playing. Which sort of flies in the face of 'knowing someone's playing an alt' or 'they're acting on information they found out through illicit means'. It's sort of like a conspiracy theory that has no basis in reality, beyond a complete lack of trust in the playerbase to be mature.
I'd never ask Staff to divulge who they are playing, or how many PCs they are playing. I don't think that's important to the discussion. However I do think that making the distinction between a Staff member and a Player is important to the discussion. Staff (as an exception) are allowed to play multiple PCs. This hasn't broken the game so far.
I know staff have some rules in place for their characters, at least. No playing sponsored roles is one of them. I'm not sure if there's others, but I imagine the oversight is much better. Still, I will say that, yes, the conflict of interest is possible, and yes, staff should prooooobably stick to having just the one character around also.
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Quote from: Molten Heart on December 13, 2016, 07:46:23 PM
And sometimes people have issues with staff characters allegedly taking advantage of their IC info knowledge.
How can they have issue if they don't know who a Staff PC is?
TINFOIL HAT SHADOWBOARD SPECULATION
People can't really know outside of staffers telling players about that in confidence. Regardless, this is an issue already, and making it worse is probably a bad thing.
I fail to see how it's an issue beyond a perceived issue, like a fabricated issue. It actually -isn't- an issue because we don't know who Staff plays, and the game is fine.
Players can only play one PC because we want them to have one perspective on the world at a time. One perspective on plots, characters, locations, and so on. We want them to be in one place at a time.
Staff already have omniscience in the game through the ability to go anywhere in the game and monitor anything. Playing multiple PCs makes no effective difference in what we can see. In any case, the vast majority of staff who play mortal PCs have one active character. The ability to have additional characters is usually utilized for testing purposes, or applying for a new character while waiting for one to be stored, or to simply try something new.
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