Armageddon General Discussion Board

I believe Laura Mars or maybe Angela Christie(Christine?) did it in around 5 days played as a test, once. Yes they were twinking. But the point was that Mundanes skill up FAR slower than mages. Even if you aren't twinking.

So, instead of derailing another perfectly legitimate thread with yet another argument for and against Coded power levels. Here's yet another thread for the bi-annual mage-hate.

Pretty simple, get all your gripe about mages out, or argue your love for them.


For my opinion, and it's opinion, not fact, remember this kids. No. They're not. If you think a mage is progressing too fast, put in a complaint. If you see a mage spamcasting, put in a complaint. That's what it's there for. I don't care how quickly you can get a mage to OMGWTFPWN levels, it's been designed that way for a reason, and quite frankly, I grow tired of people who are butthurt over a PC dying to a mage moaning about it. There's a reason Magic is supposed to be feared. It's fucking scary. It's powerful, there are countless ways to die in Zalanthas, and by a mage is one of them.

You want your mundane to be more powerful than a mage? Great. You can make it so. Right out t box. Your Melee combat skills are FAR FAR above what a mage could ever achieve. Want to take them on at range? Get a bow. Train with it.

No, a mage is not Op'd. Some are scary fucking death machines, yes. This is by design. I challenge anyone to run towards a burning ball of flame with a bone sword and expect to live to do so. I won't attend your funeral because you're an idiot.

In survival terms, you can expect a mage to survive much less than Malik the Ranger #2657 in almost any situation because mages have a coded limit on what they can do Magic wise. This is by design, and for a reason. Ranger Malik, however, can stay in a fight for as long as he has health and stamina. As soon as a mages Mana runs out, he's pretty much fucked.

Don't want your pretty, f-me warrior dying to a Krathi's spell, a Drovian's wiles, or becoming a Nilazi's skin-puppet, find some meatshields, play it smart. In 9 out of 10 settings, magic is more powerful than non-magic using classes/guilds in the short run, but in an extended fight, I'd bet on the fighter type class every time, because spells, mana, power, etc. RUNS OUT. Your bone sword will not unless your fucking really unfortunate. For that argument, please see the appropriate thread.

/Rant over.

Edited for spelling.

I like where mages are at in the game. I wish some of the other guilds powerful abilities were as easy to attain. I don't really think mages are too powerful, in some ways I wish they could be more scary, with less overt abilities like random curses, or drawbacks that put other people in danger simply for being around magick. I want magick to be radiation, for non elementalists. I want people who are over exposed to it to see real coded impacts that back up its documented history of fear and hatred.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 11, 2015, 11:58:46 PM
I like where mages are at in the game. I wish some of the other guilds powerful abilities were as easy to attain. I don't really think mages are too powerful, in some ways I wish they could be more scary, with less overt abilities like random curses, or drawbacks that put other people in danger simply for being around magick. I want magick to be radiation, for non elementalists. I want people who are over exposed to it to see real coded impacts that back up its documented history of fear and hatred.

I'd also like magick to be more scary... I think the coded spells out there now are scary enough, but they're very much known.  Too many people know what magickers are capable of...it'd be cool if new spells were added or modifications made to existing spells on a more regular basis to change things up and keep magick unpredictable.

I don't really love or hate mages, I just have trouble playing them.  What I would like to see would be mundane ways to replicate spells that make sense.  Krathi can throw fireballs but assassins can't mix some strong alcohols together and throw alcohol bombs.  I'd like to see mundane skills made more robust, not mage skills nerfed.

I don't want to give stuff away but if I am correct then mages skill up about as fast as mundanes do. Mages usually have pretty high wisdom.

Going with OP for a Reason. It's by design. There's nothing new to say in that department, so I wont.

But honestly, if we're talking PK here, class is pretty much irrelevant (unless you're a merchant). Most of the time it comes down to being prepared when your target isn't, and knowing how to play your class's strengths and weaknesses. This rule goes triple for mages because they're so worthless without preparation, and so varied with it. So what if a krathi can clear a gith clutch when he's got all his spells and macros set. Chill outside the gates at dawn and trample him before he can set up.

Quote from: MeTekillot on January 12, 2015, 12:30:15 AM
I don't want to give stuff away but if I am correct then mages skill up about as fast as mundanes do. Mages usually have pretty high wisdom.

This. No-one ever complains that the average merchant is a master tailor or somesuch by 10 days played because those NEEDLES OF DOOM and the SEWING KIT FROM DROV are about as scary as a clutch of puppies.

Yes, they are. They are much much powerful than mundane. Of course they are not unbeatable, but well... extremely powerful.

Actually I don't see any problem with it. That's one of the main reasons why I like this game setting. There no real equality between classes and races. Some of them are plain much better then others. Though I think number of magicker PCs, NPCs can be an issue. ;)

PS. Even mundanes have very high stats then your normal Zalanthian considering they have mostly above average stats, but I don't think its same with magick ability.

Mages have their weaknesses.  I feel like any class can be overpowered if you put in the time.   

They are powerful, and they should be.

I don't think they're "over" powered. That would imply that they have more than they should. I feel as though the majority of "bad rep" about mages comes from their victims, and if those victims had stopped RPing their characters into situations where they'd be enemy to a mage, they wouldn't have much to complain about.

Yes, the HRPTs tend to be mage-heavy. But the REST of the game play is mundane-heavy, so it's nice that mages have something significant to do when the shit hits the fan. This is a fantasy game. Just like when I watch a fantasy movie, I want to see fantastical special effects during the fight scenes. In playing Arm, my most memorable moments occurred when mages and psionicists were doing freaky things. And, even though I now know what those things are, I still look forward to them happening either to my character, or by my character.

Anyone can die to scrab #4779991. But you have a better shot at having a fun death when there's a mage or a mindbender involved in it.

Definitely not overpowered. If anything, there are some mundane skills that are unrealistically effective.

Mages can be quite vulnerable. If I was a mage I would never take a shit, because I would never know when some fucker with a knife is waiting to shank me when my pants are down.

Quote from: valeria on January 12, 2015, 12:15:49 AM
I don't really love or hate mages, I just have trouble playing them.  What I would like to see would be mundane ways to replicate spells that make sense.  Krathi can throw fireballs but assassins can't mix some strong alcohols together and throw alcohol bombs.  I'd like to see mundane skills made more robust, not mage skills nerfed.

Exactly this. Mages aren't OP - Mundane skillsets just haven't been given enough love.

That sort of implies that it was out of negligence or oversight -- I think that Mages should be quite powerful against a mundane. A Mundane facing a powerful magicker should feel like David Vs The Goliath. Sure, it's possible for David to win against the Giant, but it's going against all odds.

Every guild in Armageddon has its achilles heel, Magickers among them, and it's a matter of figuring that out and exploiting it. The most obvious one is every Magicker (just like every witch and every monster) has a cave/sleeping spot. There are less obvious ones that can be figured out IG/IC.

I wouldn't want to see Magickers aligned with Mundanes in any sort of power-equalization. What appeals to me, at times, with ArmageddonMUD is the gaps between power structures -- Commoners/Surif/Templars, Magickers/Mundane, Sorcerers/Magickers, and so on. They can sometimes be compared, but often, are in a class of their own. I like that, and that feeling is what separates ArmageddonMUD in my mind from WoW or other MMORPGs that always look to 'balance' as a key feature of their games.

I could stand to see some more mundane skills, and even new utility magick that isn't combat related. But I wouldn't say they haven't been given enough love. In the last year alone, sleight of hand and other sneaky skills have seen 'more love' than i've seen in the last few years.

"historically"

I should have added that word to my sentence.

The recent updates aside, which were great, mundanes have way less problem-solving ability than many mages and their skillsets do.

90% of the fun of the (original) sorcerer skillset was, for me, the ability to approach an issue in many, many different ways due to the sheer variety of spells.

I'd like to see the same be true for all classes - the skills don't necessarily have to be more effective/powerful - just to present options that we codedly lack.

Road blocks, traps, crude bombs, tying someone up, blindfolding them, the list goes on.

My main beef with magickers is thematic, not code, though the latter does feed in to the former.

In my experience, powerful magicker PCs tend to turn in to black holes where every plot is revolving around them. This is true whether that magicker is actually dangerous or not, or should even realistically be on a given clan's radar. Plots between real people become a secondary focus to fighting the X-Men or Voldemort or whatever the hell's skilled up in the last few weeks. It's more justifiable when that Magicker is being a twat to the rest of the player base, but that's not always the case. Some mages become targets simply because they're powerful, which in the absence of threatening behavior seems nigh suicidal on the part of the hunters. As someone who doesn't actually believe any of my mundanes have a shot at taking out a prepared magicker, I don't appreciate unnecessary suicide missions; better to ignore the PC if they're ignoring you. If you really want them gone, better to just wait for staff to kill them, or maneuver the mage in to a place where you can sic the crimcode on them. Either way it's a gimmicky distraction.

I treat rogue mages in the same way I treat sinkholes: something that's almost certainly fatal to encounter, so memorize where they are and go out of your way to avoid them. Because at the end of the day I just don't find magick to be that exciting or interesting a concept.

And for the record, I voted "Yes, for a reason." Mages have a place in the game world. I just don't usually want to be sharing it with them.

I don't generally have problems with their power.  Their power makes sense.

I only ever have problems with -how many- of them there are.

Quote from: Armaddict on January 12, 2015, 02:56:18 PM
I only ever have problems with -how many- of them there are.

Yeah, it would be cool if their documented rarity ("very rare" per the magick helpfile) matched their OOC rarity.

I would have imagined seeing an elf riding a beetle around should be more common than the number of spells I've seen cast with any of my characters who live for any appreciable amount of time.

Quote from: CodeMaster on January 12, 2015, 03:57:48 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on January 12, 2015, 02:56:18 PM
I only ever have problems with -how many- of them there are.

Yeah, it would be cool if their documented rarity ("very rare" per the magick helpfile) matched their OOC rarity.

I would have imagined seeing an elf riding a beetle around should be more common than the number of spells I've seen cast with any of my characters who live for any appreciable amount of time.

This is one of those things where the PC representation is always going to be larger than the VNPC representation.  If people want to play magickers, it isn't fun or healthy for the game for there to be some long ass queue in order play one to keep them rare.  I think the CGP system will help with this a lot though, if it acts a currency to buy character guilds/races, that'll naturally improve the rarity.

I don't think magic is overpowered. I don't think mundanes are underpowered. Each, in their own right, can grow to be powerful and scary if played correctly. Mages progress faster, which is one of the reasons it requires karma to play them.

I think what needs to be remembered is that classes are not equal. A nilazi is not supposed to be equally scary as a ranger. They don't have to be. Should a character that requires 6 karma to play be EQUAL to a character that requires 0 karma to play? Probably not.

I voted yes, with a reason.
I like that witches are scary and codely powerful.  I Feel as if some one abuses their mage power, staff would ensure that player no longer had the karma for it.
Not to mention they have many RP options taken from them, so I think it works out.  I'd rather have more options to role play than to WTFPWNBBQ some one as a Krathi.

To play Devil's advocate on the number of mages. I feel there really shouldn't be a "cap" or enforced "rarity" players make up such a small percentage of the virtual population, I think its ok for them to fall more onto the rare/exception range of people.  But personally I've never been one to believe forcing players in or away from roles, areas, and the like is every really going to solve the problem, and only further alienates players who may like a certain type of role.

But thats... just like my opinion man.

Here's my perspective on this recurring topic:

A player who knows how to maximize their coded advantages, and knows the mechanics of the game inside and out has much more potential coded life & death power playing a mage than a non-mage guild.   However, the amount of scrutiny and expectations to play fairly using a mage guild are significantly higher than a mundane.  I would argue, if you created an expectations-to-power ratio, magick using guilds are burdened with much more expectations to play fair than they are power. 

If a mundane guild kills another player using a clever use of game mechanics, or outright dominates them due to having higher trained skills or stats, we rarely hear any moaning about it on the GDB.  In fact, that character and/or player may be viewed as "skilled". Whereas if a magick using guild kills another player using clever use of game mechanics, the default response I've witnessed is finger pointing and cries of abuse.  In fact, I'd say if a magick using guild kills another player under most circumstances, without even doing anything particularly clever, the default response is cries of abuse.

I know as a player, I'm far more nervous about killing on my mage PCs than I am playing a mundane.  I think that's good.  There should be a greater sense of responsibility when you're given a larger coded toolkit to work with.

TLDR:  If there were no rules or roleplaying expectations behind mages, they would certainly be codedly overpowered compared to mundane guilds.  But, those rules and expectations exist, and with them in place I'd actually say mages are very well balanced relative to mundanes.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 11, 2015, 11:25:32 PM
I believe Laura Mars or maybe Angela Christie(Christine?) did it in around 5 days played as a test, once. Yes they were twinking. But the point was that Mundanes skill up FAR slower than mages. Even if you aren't twinking.

Hymwen. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,25179.msg268916.html#msg268916)

Get rid of Whirans and 99% of the "goddamn mages" complaints will...disappear.

cast 'mon un whira get rekt' synthesis

I whine a lot about magickers. Not because they are powerful or something like that. To me Templars are real OP in cities, DE OP in Tablelands and that's great.  Also I don't know the current ratio or general atmosphere of things, so please take what I say as some words from distant past. In Zalanthas, as I understand (from documents and cultural atmosphere) at most %0.01 of people are real magick users (you know people who can really control and cast spells). When there are like (of course exaggerating) %40 of PCs you met turn out to be supernatural, it kinda sucks. Please do not misunderstand me, I am not saying people should not play magickers, or people who runs supernatural PC are not good enough players,etc. You guys are usually awesome and you know it. Also who am I to jugde anyways. What I say is; it becomes really hard to rp realisticly. You know probably your ordinary Zalanthian is freaked out from magick itself, but if you know a lot of magickers then you have hard time to rp great suprise or fear out of it. It's same for magickers. You are really a cool rper, and playing a magicker fit in setting.. S/he is pretty strong as it should be, put people around you behave to you like you are just another guy. I think that must be frasturating.

I think there is one other perspective of the matter. A group of warriors can get meks for dinner. Hell, they can call a mek for a dinner. A group of good trained mundanes can do many things, but a group of magickers... that's something else. I did not play a decent magicker, probably had one or two magickers in maybe 24 hours so game play. I just saw what a group of them can do. Not that I don't trust you, my fellow ARM friends, but I fear that type of groups inevitably stop or prevent many plots. If nothing else, they would kill many plot leading or leader PCs in a blink of eye, not because they are bad rps who PK for fun, just because that's realistic thing to do in harsh world of Zalanthas. As a magicker group, You and your crew are very tough fellas after all why would you have to turn a blind eye to DE tribe treating you, or to a templar killed a member of your magicker group, or to a merchant house who refuse to pay your magicker band 10000 coins worth of equipment to stop you from attacking their wagon. Now, that type of power is something that can be considered OP. Not really gamebreaking in a hack&slash way, but game-breaking in RPI way.:)

Quote from: Gaare on January 13, 2015, 07:01:31 AM
I whine a lot about magickers. Not because they are powerful or something like that. To me Templars are real OP in cities, DE OP in Tablelands and that's great.  Also I don't know the current ratio or general atmosphere of things, so please take what I say as some words from distant past. In Zalanthas, as I understand (from documents and cultural atmosphere) at most %0.01 of people are real magick users (you know people who can really control and cast spells). When there are like (of course exaggerating) %40 of PCs you met turn out to be supernatural, it kinda sucks. Please do not misunderstand me, I am not saying people should not play magickers, or people who runs supernatural PC are not good enough players,etc. You guys are usually awesome and you know it. Also who am I to jugde anyways. What I say is; it becomes really hard to rp realisticly. You know probably your ordinary Zalanthian is freaked out from magick itself, but if you know a lot of magickers then you have hard time to rp great suprise or fear out of it. It's same for magickers. You are really a cool rper, and playing a magicker fit in setting.. S/he is pretty strong as it should be, put people around you behave to you like you are just another guy. I think that must be frasturating.

I think there is one other perspective of the matter. A group of warriors can get meks for dinner. Hell, they can call a mek for a dinner. A group of good trained mundanes can do many things, but a group of magickers... that's something else. I did not play a decent magicker, probably had one or two magickers in maybe 24 hours so game play. I just saw what a group of them can do. Not that I don't trust you, my fellow ARM friends, but I fear that type of groups inevitably stop or prevent many plots. If nothing else, they would kill many plot leading or leader PCs in a blink of eye, not because they are bad rps who PK for fun, just because that's realistic thing to do in harsh world of Zalanthas. As a magicker group, You and your crew are very tough fellas after all why would you have to turn a blind eye to DE tribe treating you, or to a templar killed a member of your magicker group, or to a merchant house who refuse to pay your magicker band 10000 coins worth of equipment to stop you from attacking their wagon. Now, that type of power is something that can be considered OP. Not really gamebreaking in a hack&slash way, but game-breaking in RPI way.:)

Basically this.

It's really hard to get any sense of "magick is rare and scary" when you have to force yourself on an OOC level to treat magick as rare and scary . Mostly because magickers are people, and they can be amiable and hard to hate, which sucks when there are often so many of them running around. Like when those riots were going on in Allanak a while back, we'd get neat echoes and NPCs openly being angry about those darn 'gickers in the streets-- I don't know about you, but I just wasn't feeling it when it came to actually dealing with other PCs, mundane or otherwise.

Maybe I need to bring my trash to Tuluk to help dirty it up next time I play, but man.... That's a big jump from the love affair I've had with 'Rinth and 'Nak.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 13, 2015, 08:25:05 AM
It's really hard to get any sense of "magick is rare and scary" when you have to force yourself on an OOC level to treat magick as rare and scary . Mostly because magickers are people, and they can be amiable and hard to hate, which sucks when there are often so many of them running around. Like when those riots were going on in Allanak a while back, we'd get neat echoes and NPCs openly being angry about those darn 'gickers in the streets-- I don't know about you, but I just wasn't feeling it when it came to actually dealing with other PCs, mundane or otherwise.

Maybe I need to bring my trash to Tuluk to help dirty it up next time I play, but man.... That's a big jump from the love affair I've had with 'Rinth and 'Nak.

I don't think that it's "mostly because magickers are people," in the case of yourself, and pretty much anyone whose played for a couple of years. I think it's more a matter of "we've been playing long enough to have been exposed to magicks and what they can do, and maybe even played one or two ourselves at one point, and it is no longer an OOC mystery."

Once you know what it's about on an OOC level, you DO have to force yourself to make your character treat it as a mystery on an IC level. For some people, this is fun. For others, it isn't. It's the same with solving ANY puzzle or mystery in a game. Once you, the player, know the solution, you can't un-know it. Like knowing the best route from Allanak to Tuluk. Or the safest resting spot in the tablelands. Or the hidden cave in the mountains, or that Lady FrouFrou is a secret mindbender. Or that Amos the Wise is actually an NPC that gets animated once a year for HRPTs and your chances of finding his mind to discuss a trade for silks are slim to none on any random Tuesday.

Much more concerning to me than a mages coded powers is the ability of mundanes to join clan X and get a massive status boost right out of the box, and the potential for abuse that can bring. Yeah yeah, we get it, you're special because you're part of this group over here, but in the end you're just another dirty commoner, so stop waddling around in your silks and demanding the rest of us kiss your ass. I'd much rather see a mage zap some uppity commoner in the streets than the other way around.

Quote from: Fujikoma on January 13, 2015, 09:57:32 AM
Much more concerning to me than a mages coded powers is the ability of mundanes to join clan X and get a massive status boost right out of the box, and the potential for abuse that can bring. Yeah yeah, we get it, you're special because you're part of this group over here, but in the end you're just another dirty commoner, so stop waddling around in your silks and demanding the rest of us kiss your ass. I'd much rather see a mage zap some uppity commoner in the streets than the other way around.

If Allanaki commoners are wearing silk that's usually interpreted as illegal by Templars and nobility.

Also, if you want PCs to stop acting as though they're above you, stop playing unaffiliated commoners. :)

Didn't read the thread. Replying to the title. /disclaimer

Mages are supposed to be extremely dangerous and extremely hated because they are extremely dangerous, among other things.

If they weren't extremely OP'ly-dangerous, it just wouldn't be the same.

I've always wanted to see them a bit more dangerous and a bit less commonly accepted in Allanak actually. (I don't mean insta-gank from across the world with zero percent chance of failure and an immediate unavoidable mantis head...just...more dangerous in a face to face sort of way.)

They have gotten to the point they are so commonly accepted in Allanak by so many people and so heavily backed and supported by the templarate and House Oash that offending them in a lot of cases means most likely offending Allanak and House Oash.

If you give them too much crap for being a horrible nightmare creature....which is how they should be treated/avoided/shunned/ran from screaming....you basically are insulting the templarate and House Oash and you can expect a visit from them.

This results in most people being too afraid of House Oash and the templarate to treat them like the monsters they are and they end up getting treated like normal people, more or less, by a lot of people.

Sure, I would say I see some people who treat them "correctly", but for every one of those I see 10 people who "Aint got nothing against gemmers." or "They never hurt me any." or "I'm actually very curious about you.".

I don't blame them. When the system is setup so that you offending a gemmer is basically you offending a noble House or a Templar, you just learn to play the game because nobody wants to die.

*shrug*

My thoughts on it.

Make magickers more dangerous, less accepted, and more in line with the documentation as I perceive it (which may not be accurate, but, it is how I perceive it).

All the talk of how common magickers are is making me wonder if I am playing the same game as you guys! i don't think there are any problems at all with magickers. Not in their power or in how common they are. Last time I saw a group of magickers it was either an RPT or it was one time many months ago. Feels like people are complaining a lot about something that actually is as rare as it should be.

As to the constant struggle between accepting magickers and hating them. Playing it out IC is best. Magicker PCs work hard to get a little clout. Desertman I think is really exagerrating the support they have. Oash will not do shit for any non Oashi mage. Most Templars also simply do not give a shit. So I have to disagree.

Quote from: Miko on January 13, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
As to the constant struggle between accepting magickers and hating them. Playing it out IC is best. Magicker PCs work hard to get a little clout. Desertman I think is really exagerrating the support they have. Oash will not do shit for any non Oashi mage. Most Templars also simply do not give a shit. So I have to disagree.

Having had the wrath come down on me before for something that shall remain unmentioned, I might have to disagree.

Quote from: Miko on January 13, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
As to the constant struggle between accepting magickers and hating them. Playing it out IC is best. Magicker PCs work hard to get a little clout. Desertman I think is really exagerrating the support they have. Oash will not do shit for any non Oashi mage. Most Templars also simply do not give a shit. So I have to disagree.

I will agree to disagree with you based on my own experiences, which is really all we have.

I've also experienced the wrath more than once. More than a handful of times actually. I've also seen other PC's go the way of the Dodo due to this. *shrug*

Quote from: Miko on January 13, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
Most Templars also simply do not give a shit. So I have to disagree.

It doesn't really take more than one Templar to care about you before you become pretty dangerous.

Same for a noble.

Posted this in another thread, but it seems relevant here now too...

Quote
...so you just chased off that city elf, and then a mage sits down at the bar with you.  Your bad day just got a lot worse.  A realistic reaction [to this hated and feared individual] would probably be to stand up from the bar and give him/her some space, possibly leave the room, and maybe complain to Vennant later about who he lets sit at the bar.  I.e., completely shut down player interaction.  The problem is, players don't want to do this to each other!

I can't honestly comment on what's going on right now, so I hope nobody takes this as a personal affront (it's not!):

But I think it should be the mages' responsibility to make themselves scarce (i.e., "very rare"), by not casting in the middle of populated areas (or near gates), and by not sitting front-and-center in the main tavern.

Yeah.  Dwarves too.  They should only play iso roles because the dwarf population is about on par with the mage population, realistically.

And half-elves.

I tried to suggest that mages shouldn't sit at the bar and should either keep out of taverns or sit at the tables instead and nearly got my face kicked in by the GDB. The war between realism and interaction is real, due to the way the documentation is set up, but personally, I had a shit ton of fun with my very long-lived gemmed and I rarely ever set foot in a tavern. It's all about whether you're lucky enough to have a decent population in the gemmed quarter (or militia or oash) to interact with. I also think people have trouble finding those fine lines between interacting, and interacting positively/negatively, and not interacting at all. You can interact with someone in that semi-hostile grey area without insulting their mother and calling them an abomination of creation. It's not an either/or binary situation.

</atworkstreamofthought>

Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 13, 2015, 12:14:53 PM
Yeah.  Dwarves too.  They should only play iso roles because the dwarf population is about on par with the mage population, realistically.

And half-elves.

This comes off as a bit sarcastic, but here are some key differences.  Dwarves (and half-elves) are not universally hated and feared.  They aren't straining the virtual world by chumming it up with the other mundanes.  Moreover, these are not considered challenging, karma-required roles.

Quote from: Desertman on January 13, 2015, 11:59:35 AM

Quote from: Miko on January 13, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
As to the constant struggle between accepting magickers and hating them. Playing it out IC is best. Magicker PCs work hard to get a little clout. Desertman I think is really exagerrating the support they have. Oash will not do shit for any non Oashi mage. Most Templars also simply do not give a shit. So I have to disagree.

I will agree to disagree with you based on my own experiences, which is really all we have.

I've also experienced the wrath more than once. More than a handful of times actually. I've also seen other PC's go the way of the Dodo due to this. *shrug*

Two points to make on this:

1)  Much of what we see as players is incomplete information.  I've played a fair amount of gemmed mages in my years, and I can say with absolute certainty of experience that it is difficult to make friends amongst the commoners.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is either mistaken, or perhaps had experiences from a different time.  Sure...the occasional person out there doesn't mind magick as part of their chosen personality (be that a good roleplayer or not is a separate debate) but they are by far the minority.  

With that said, making friends with common people is not impossible, and some of those friendships you might see from the outside looking in might contradict what I just said at first glance...  But you often times don't know the whole story.  Many of the ungemmed friends my PCs have made over the course of their lives were forged over IC years of time.  Sometimes they involved my magicker literally saving this person from certain death.  Sometimes they involved them saving entire groups of people's lives from certain death, at great personal risk.  It doesn't matter what kind of monster society paints magick as...if that monster saves your life, it's not bad roleplay for some to treat them as friends afterwards.

2)  It's no secret that gemmed mages are weapons of Allanak.  Templars might not care about them as individual people, but if you go break a Templar's favorite catapult they aren't going to be very pleased with you if you're just some worthless commoner.  So while this might mean gemmed are loosely "protected" by the Templarate, it by no means makes them loved right out of the gates.  Also worth noting, many gemmed work for the Templarate.  While they may seem unaffiliated to you looking in from the outside, they might've served Templar Muckedymuck for 10 IC years.  Don't be surprised if this Templar protects his servants.

Quote from: CodeMaster on January 13, 2015, 12:21:15 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 13, 2015, 12:14:53 PM
Yeah.  Dwarves too.  They should only play iso roles because the dwarf population is about on par with the mage population, realistically.

And half-elves.

This comes off as a bit sarcastic, but here are some key differences.  Dwarves (and half-elves) are not universally hated and feared.  They aren't straining the virtual world by chumming it up with the other mundanes.  Moreover, these are not considered challenging, karma-required roles.

It was meant to be incredibly sarcastic.  It seems ludicrous, to me, that players should be responsible for enforcing their own characters' rarity or other characters/players' perception of their rarity.  Same for hatred/fear.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 13, 2015, 12:28:43 PM

Quote from: CodeMaster on January 13, 2015, 12:21:15 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 13, 2015, 12:14:53 PM
Yeah.  Dwarves too.  They should only play iso roles because the dwarf population is about on par with the mage population, realistically.

And half-elves.

This comes off as a bit sarcastic, but here are some key differences.  Dwarves (and half-elves) are not universally hated and feared.  They aren't straining the virtual world by chumming it up with the other mundanes.  Moreover, these are not considered challenging, karma-required roles.

It was meant to be incredibly sarcastic.  It seems ludicrous, to me, that players should be responsible for enforcing their own characters' rarity or other characters/players' perception of their rarity.  Same for hatred/fear.

All players are required to put some effort into making the PC-world reflect the documented world.  If this weren't the case, Armageddon's rich set of documentation would mean nothing.  The elf that rides should be incredibly rare.  The dwarf with an undefined focus should be incredibly rare.  The capable half-giant liar should be rare.

If you were running a tavern and someone who was universally feared and hated (and wore the mark of it) came and sat down at the bar, would you just continue to serve drinks with a smile on your face?

But which of these do you have a problem with again?

Quotenot casting in the middle of populated areas (or near gates), and by not sitting front-and-center in the main tavern.

This part:

Quote from: CodeMaster on January 13, 2015, 12:09:59 PMBut I think it should be the mages' responsibility to make themselves scarce (i.e., "very rare")

Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 13, 2015, 12:49:14 PM
This part:

Quote from: CodeMaster on January 13, 2015, 12:09:59 PMBut I think it should be the mages' responsibility to make themselves scarce (i.e., "very rare")

Okay, I can see your point of view.

But I'm sure you can agree with my sentiment that we, as players, need to take into account how the NPC/VNPC world would really react to our characters, and play carefully around that.  Even if it means isolating ourselves just a little bit?

So much of this thread is predicated on the "help magick" saying magick is very rare.  I think we should put "very rare" in perspective in this context...

There is an entire quarter dedicated to housing the gemmed of Allanak. I'm interpreting that help doc to say that magick is "very rare" in the context that you aren't likely to see a guy flying around on a magic carpet, or see an enchanted sword in the bazaar.  I would not take it to mean that the population of those capable of wielding magick in some small way is extremely tiny.

Sure, you might see a gemmed sitting at a tavern.  That doesn't mean that gemmed is using magick in that tavern.  Or doing anything even remotely magick-like...

Quote from: wizturbo on January 13, 2015, 01:01:56 PM
So much of this thread is predicated on the "help magick" saying magick is very rare.  I think we should put "very rare" in perspective in this context...

There is an entire quarter dedicated to housing the gemmed of Allanak. I'm interpreting that help doc to say that magick is "very rare" in the context that you aren't likely to see a guy flying around on a magic carpet, or see an enchanted sword in the bazaar.  I would not take it to mean that the population of those capable of wielding magick in some small way is extremely tiny.

Sure, you might see a gemmed sitting at a tavern.  That doesn't mean that gemmed is using magick in that tavern.  Or doing anything even remotely magick-like...

You know, I was so focused on the first sentence of the help file I didn't stop to think about Allanak's reality.  You're right, there is an entire quarter devoted to the arcane.  And the "peacekeepers" are known to use magick as well (it's even there in the help file).

The second sentence of 'help magick' also says, "magickers are tolerated in some places", so maybe I've been doing it all wrong and should be tolerant of magick?

Obviously I need help.  Is there a modern equivalent to this document?
http://old.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickfaq.html (http://old.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickfaq.html)

I agree with MM that it shouldn't be the mage's responsibility to make themselves hated or rare.

There should be direct constructs, both coded and social (documentation) that make mages more hated and rare.

There should be less constructs, both coded and social that allow them to be less hated and less rare.

I don't want it to be the mage's responsibility to make themselves less hated and less rare. I want it to not even be an option for them unless it is in extreme cases of exception-to-the-rule due to IC reasons pertaining to that specific PC.

People want to interact with magickers, they can. If people don't want to interact with them, there are a fuckton of ways to safely avoid doing that.

If magickers are "rare" then people who want to interact with them won't be able to. They should be represented within the appropriate IC boundaries, that, as far as I know, are being correctly enforced for the past, oh, years.

Wizturbo makes two good points regarding Gemmed and Commoner friendships. I'd be skeptical of even calling them friendships, much of the time. They can be more professional in nature.

He's also right in that it's natural for the Templarate to show favor to the Gemmed when it comes to Commoner/Gemmed interactions. There's a reason Gemmed are hated and shunned by the vNPC population, and it's not just because the Gemmed are magickal. Gemmed enjoy some real privileges and some imagined ones in exchange to being essentially slaves. They have (limited) room and board, which are HUGE luxuries compared to most commoners. There's also the protection that comes with being a Templar's toys. Mundane PCs should be free to feel resentment towards the Gemmed and act on it in whatever ways they think it's safe. IF you do that, though, you have to accept that you're dicking around with the Templarate's favorite toy and, if you're too blatant, you're going to have a bad time.

If Magickers seem too accepted, that's a failure of the mundane population to not effectively shun them and treat them like the creepy, unnantural, unlucky Templarate pets that they are. Gemmed sits down at the bar? Pick up your drinks and move to a table. (This actually happens in room echoes!) Give them dirty looks in passing on the street. Make a sign to ward off the evil eye behind their back. The first reaction should be avoidance and resentment. Mundanes should be loathe to work with Gemmed. It's only after years of working alongside them, if ever, that some characters would feel semi-comfortable.

If you're a mundane and know another mundane who wants to be friendly/ "get to know" the Magickers, they're probably ALSO a magicker and should be lynched.

Now you're just playing Mafia.

Wanton killing is a proven winning strategy in Mafia, at least on this forum.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 13, 2015, 01:41:35 PM
If you're a mundane and know another mundane who wants to be friendly/ "get to know" the Magickers, they're probably ALSO a magicker and should be lynched.

I definitely think this should be a common reaction, at least to some degree.  The social pressure should be on the mundanes even more than the gemmed.  When you look at prejudice in the real world, that's often the case.  That's how prejudice is reinforced.  Father's freak out when their daughters bring home a minority boyfriend.  Families disown their child when they find out they're gay, or atheist, or whatever...  

I don't fault anyone roleplaying that their PC has decided to be friends with a magicker.  I don't know what that PC's background is, I don't know what their history is with the magicker...  I won't ever know, so judging them really isn't worth my time.  I think that friendship should come at a social cost though, and from what I've seen in my own experiences, they often do.  At all levels.  A Templar isn't going to care what some worthless commoner things about them, but if House Borsail decides that Templar isn't worth supporting because they're too chummy with the gemmed...it might create the appropriate social pressures, even on someone as high and mighty as a blue-robed Templar.

Magicker-loving mundanes should be more hated than the gicks.
These are the people who CHOOSE to be around/involved with magick.

RE: OP
Every class has an advantage over most/all other classes.
Rangers can put a -10000000HP arrow in your eye.
Warrior can wtfpwn you with a femur upside the head.
Assassins can wtfpwn you from the shadows and all you see is a mantis head.
Pickpockets can procure that 1000000000 coin dagger off your belt from in your pack on your way to deliver it to Lord Templar Hardnose.
Burglars can turn a wealthy character's world upside down, and they don't even have to be in game for it to happen.

Nearly every magicker has a spell that can do one of the above (and none of them start out with this skill either, unlike all of the mundanes).
You can practice all mundane skills above in some way without being condemned to an instant death by any PC with the power to do so if caught, most INSIDE the walls.
You can work on all of the above skills while under the protection of a clan, half all of the above have clans who will TEACH you these skills.

The only non-sponsored class that I have every thought of as truly over-powered no longer exists (RIP sorcs, oh how I wanted to play one one day).

Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 13, 2015, 06:52:14 PM

RE: OP
Every class has an advantage over most/all other classes.
Rangers can put a -10000000HP arrow in your eye.
Warrior can wtfpwn you with a femur upside the head.
Assassins can wtfpwn you from the shadows and all you see is a mantis head.
Pickpockets can procure that 1000000000 coin dagger off your belt from in your pack on your way to deliver it to Lord Templar Hardnose.
Burglars can turn a wealthy character's world upside down, and they don't even have to be in game for it to happen.

Merchants can make so much coin, they can pay one of each class above to do all of these things at the same time.  The most OP of all classes.

'Gikers probably make more coins than merchants. Just sayin'.

Quote from: Malken on January 13, 2015, 06:59:33 PM
'Gikers probably make more coins than merchants. Just sayin'.

Maybe in some cases, but they have more trouble spending it.  People don't want a dirty 'gickers money, but Amos the Armorcrafter?  Sure!  Pay up!

Quote from: wizturbo on January 13, 2015, 06:58:39 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 13, 2015, 06:52:14 PM

RE: OP
Every class has an advantage over most/all other classes.
Rangers can put a -10000000HP arrow in your eye.
Warrior can wtfpwn you with a femur upside the head.
Assassins can wtfpwn you from the shadows and all you see is a mantis head.
Pickpockets can procure that 1000000000 coin dagger off your belt from in your pack on your way to deliver it to Lord Templar Hardnose.
Burglars can turn a wealthy character's world upside down, and they don't even have to be in game for it to happen.

Merchants can make so much coin, they can pay one of each class above to do all of these things at the same time.  The most OP of all classes.

Damnit! I miss one!!!

Quote from: wizturbo on January 13, 2015, 07:03:04 PM

Quote from: Malken on January 13, 2015, 06:59:33 PM
'Gikers probably make more coins than merchants. Just sayin'.

Maybe in some cases, but they have more trouble spending it.  People don't want a dirty 'gickers money, but Amos the Armorcrafter?  Sure!  Pay up!

True dat.  As it should be.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 13, 2015, 07:03:04 PM
People don't want a dirty 'gickers money

my sides

Dood. I totally believe that Witches are Over Powered. Duh.
Who can honestly throw an ball of /sun/ power able to kill you in one hit and say they aren't over powered.
With that, I also say warriors can mess your world up, assassins too with a super-gank as well as rangers through arrows and dare I say merchants? With the power of politics? Someone else said it already. Every guild has its strengths and weaknesses.

the difference between a mage weakness and a mundane weakness is just that.
Mage weak points are mostly magick. I know it's frightening. You should be scared since you're not magick.

Am I the only person to ever play a mage that was never fully branched in like, 10 days played? I don't know. I always was RPing. I couldn't stand skilling up as a mage. I found it even more dull and repetitive than mundane skilling up.

The last time I played a magicker, that wasn't insta-ganked hour 1, mind you, I was around for 3 months before another gicker. He ended up fully branched in, oh, a week? And I still was... well, not. :/ It was extremely discouraging!

I'll leave the mage playing to the people who know how to play them. I'll just hunt those bitches down.

Quote from: boog on January 14, 2015, 07:00:54 PM
Am I the only person to ever play a mage that was never fully branched in like, 10 days played? I don't know. I always was RPing. I couldn't stand skilling up as a mage. I found it even more dull and repetitive than mundane skilling up.

The last time I played a magicker, that wasn't insta-ganked hour 1, mind you, I was around for 3 months before another gicker. He ended up fully branched in, oh, a week? And I still was... well, not. :/ It was extremely discouraging!

I'll leave the mage playing to the people who know how to play them. I'll just hunt those bitches down.

You're definitely not alone in this.  Most of my mages don't "fully branch" anywhere near 10 days played.  Of course, the first time playing a specific mage class slows things down considerably as you don't know what path leads to what unless you're lucky to find a teacher.

Don't think I've ever fully branched a mage. Can honestly say I've never branched all six starting spells, even after fifteen days or so.

Quote from: Desertman on January 13, 2015, 01:23:38 PM
I agree with MM that it shouldn't be the mage's responsibility to make themselves hated or rare.

There should be direct constructs, both coded and social (documentation) that make mages more hated and rare.

There should be less constructs, both coded and social that allow them to be less hated and less rare.

I don't want it to be the mage's responsibility to make themselves less hated and less rare. I want it to not even be an option for them unless it is in extreme cases of exception-to-the-rule due to IC reasons pertaining to that specific PC.

Yeah, I am beginning to side with MM now too.

I agree with you here as well about there being direct constructs that reinforce the documentation.

It would be cool if there were an investigator/inquisitor type in Allanak that investigated people who were known to (or were rumored to) fraternize with mages -- a bit of soft torture to discern their motives and discourage that sort of behavior at large.

Quote from: CodeMaster on January 14, 2015, 10:11:26 PM
It would be cool if there were an investigator/inquisitor type in Allanak that investigated people who were known to (or were rumored to) fraternize with mages -- a bit of soft torture to discern their motives and discourage that sort of behavior at large.

Oh shit - That would be downright awesome!

Quote from: CodeMaster on January 14, 2015, 10:11:26 PM

It would be cool if there were an investigator/inquisitor type in Allanak that investigated people who were known to (or were rumored to) fraternize with mages -- a bit of soft torture to discern their motives and discourage that sort of behavior at large.

Sorry, but that makes little sense.  This isn't Dragon Age...  The Allanaki Templarate tolerates mages. It's the commoners and some of the noble houses that don't like mages.  Unless you're talking about some grassroots, commoner or noble vigilante playing "inquisitor"..., i guess that would be okay?  Don't be surprised if the Templarate or a gemmed don't take such a thing lying down, but I think it would be pretty cool role...doubt it'd live very long though :p  

Edited...to be less harsh...

Quote from: wizturbo on January 14, 2015, 10:28:22 PM

Quote from: CodeMaster on January 14, 2015, 10:11:26 PM

It would be cool if there were an investigator/inquisitor type in Allanak that investigated people who were known to (or were rumored to) fraternize with mages -- a bit of soft torture to discern their motives and discourage that sort of behavior at large.

Sorry, but that makes absolutely zero sense.  This isn't Dragon Age...  The Allanaki Templarate tolerates mages. It's the commoners and some of the noble houses that don't like mages.  Unless you're talking about some grassroots, commoner or noble vigilante playing "inquisitor"..., i guess that would be okay?  Don't be surprised if the Templarate or a gemmed don't take such a thing lying down, but I think it would be pretty cool.

Absolutely zero sense?  Harsh, man. :)

If you had an ultra powerful slave and someone was buddying up to it while you weren't around, wouldn't you want to know what's going on?  Wouldn't you want to discourage someone from even thinking about trying to manipulate your cherished neutron bomb?

(So maybe we're just on different pages - I'd imagine if you're playing a commoner, and you're not roleplaying out the requisite disgust, then that should be noticeable to someone in the higher echelons)

I think the word 'tolerate' is pretty operational word.

The 2nd definition of it is the one I think fits: accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance.

In other words...they're not really -wanted-, but they're necessary.  So they have restrictions in place.  Earlier, someone made a reference to how they have a whole quarter, and that being indicative of there being more of them than we thought.

I see the quarter as indicative of this definition.  They are useful, but not wanted...so they're all kinda put out of the way over here, in their own quarter that is never described as anywhere near densely populated.  They're segregated.  This is reminiscent of the -city's- behavior towards the gemmed.

I think the population at large, however, likely has a different outlook.  They don't see any necessary need for them.  For them, they are the ones subjected to magick's continued existence.  They know they're protected from it by the templarate.  They know they're controlled.  I don't think the argument of 'It may occur to be nicer to them since they can curse you' is an extreme case, still, because of that known protection.  Historically speaking, rogue magickers, those who worked against citizens, have been harshly dealt with.  Sometimes in public, even.

I think 'average' behavior is more akin to treating them something like a leper colony.  In a world filled with slaves, the concept of 'living but not a person' is an easily received concept.  I don't think pity runs wild.  I don't think most would see it as an unfortunate affliction on a poor soul.  I think most would view it as something the templars want -for some reason-, and so they just have to deal with it...but they don't have to be nice about it.  At all.

This is reinforced, even, in the Allanaki senate log (I believe it shows it).  Even the noble houses, those in the know, want it outlawed.  They don't want it anywhere near them.  It's literally only the highlord's will that keeps it around.  And thus...with templars being as feared as they are...it's fear that keeps them protected from people (and people protected from gemmed).

The inquisition thing?  It's a cool idea, and I'd like it, except for that it, too, doesn't fit into the documentation.  The documentation literally requires it to be played accurately on both sides, and so there are these huge swings back and forth depending on who's playing whom, and their preferences.  Which is fine.

To reiterate...I don't think a gripe about their -power- is a valid one.  It's...magick, man, that's some crazy shit.  I think the gripe is when it's a thing that more of the population is constantly subjected to for the sake of the other player's enjoyment of the game.  For me, it's about the number of them...you start having magick discussions in public places, you start seeing gems everywhere, they start being used as tools everywhere, and the role of the mundane setting starts to waiver and fall out of place.  For gemmed, if there's too few (like the numbers I want), they have to leave the quarter to get any sort of interaction.  Once there's enough of them that they don't have to leave for interaction, there's now a nice small community with...nothing to do.  I'm really unsure that there -is- a healthy balance, which is why from the getgo, my understanding has been that the social ostracism and yes, the boredom, was part of the role.  You got powerful.  You got the cool magicky stuff to base your character's life around...but it was a life filled with solitude and loss.  That was why the population of it stayed in check...playing one, just wasn't as action packed, or fun, but it appealed to the player at that time, or they wouldn't have made one.

Magick documentation is what drew me into this game in the first place.  Not just the magick system and how it works, but its place in the world.  I quickly learned it wasn't the role for me, even though I love the spells, the spellcasting, and the magick plots.  So I get pretty heated whenever people talk about changing the documentation to suit people who are the same.  They love the spells, the spellcasting, and the magick plots, but just hate that they aren't exposed to as much of the social world as a result.  I don't think that should change for that.

Completely my own opinion and interpretations, kind of trying to blanket a bunch of stuff and reiterate it from the multitude of my contributions over time.

Mages are hard to play in a whole other way..Its hard to find people to play with, if you aren't gemmed your hunted in one of the few places you can live, if you are gemmed your the closest thing in the game to a PC slave and your wearing a giant here come kill me sign on your neck. People don't even need a reasonable reason to murder you. 90% of pking I have done on Arm has been in self defense while playing a magicker. Half of those people were characters I didn't even know, trying to murder me (as far as I could tell) just because I was a mage. Playing a rogue is horribly lonely even when you do find a group of other rogues to run with.  ???

Even when trying to branch slowly there is a lot more pressure on a mage to get good fast or at least get the spells you need to defend yourself and survive. I don't think thats true for any other class aside form Sorcerers and Psions. Additionally because its hard to find people to play with you have a lot of time sitting around with nothing to do but practice spells. As for the money? They really don't need it..you tend to primarily play with other magickers because of mages role in society (or lack their of) so mages take care of each other. Need water? I'll make it for you. Magickers tend to take care of each other. They do that because they have too..Merchants won't deal with you or sell you things so it piles up. Any big project you try to save up for gets shot down by nobles that hate mages or templar so what do you even do with money?

I will never get the mage hate...What I would like to see is mages having more of place somewhere. Being able to join more orgs and thusly more involved in stuff other than themselves in little isolated clusters.

I played a mage once. People loved that silly fuck, so I must've been doing it wrong. I don't think I'll do it so wrong next time. As far as branching, I had to go through a bunch of RP just to figure out what the hell I was doing, what are these strange words? No one ever tried to kill me. In the end, died because of failure to understand code, as usual, alas.

I would love for there to be more emphasis placed on people who are "buddies" with gemmed mages being ostracized and possibly, if not CERTAINLY investigated and almost always harassed by the authorities for their relations.

When I play a southern Allanaki Templar, you folks who are buddying it up with or even banging my gemmed slaves better expect to get some shit from me. Because it is coming and I will make sure my Arm underlings adapt the same mindset.

It would make people who are going to be buddies with mages do it in a private secure setting so that it stops appearing to be the norm in the middle of public commoner taverns.

All of you mages who sit around at the bar in the middle of these taverns and have discussions with each other and even other non-mages about what your magic powers can and can't do like it's a Jenny Craig support group for gickers etc...etc...etc....get ready, because when I play that Templar, your life is going to be shit.

There is also some fancy new code that I've seen in game that keeps certain people out of certain taverns. I wouldn't mind seeing that code adapted to check for gems. This would have not only the benefit of keeping them codedly "out" and away from "common people", it would also create a coded construct in game that would help create a socially accepted construct of truly ostracizing and separating that group.

When you have NPC's in place that do something openly, it becomes commonly accepted by the playerbase that, "This is the way the world works. Staff backs this entirely. I should be this way too.".

I'm curious, having never played a mage, but, um, sorta, well, let's just say, I've watched a lot of you with previous PCs from the shadows: Is it fun at all?  Do you basically just log in for RPTs and otherwise code up the skills in your temples alone?  Are there outlets for interaction that are satisfying?  I'm thinking here of the standard run, the gemmed mage in Allanak.  My hunch is that it would be terrible, the worst of both worlds, just slightly better than a city elf: you are isolated (-and- there are hardly any other PC mages to hang with) -and- treated as a tool.  You can go on those RPTs, but while everyone else is sitting around the campfire (YOU MADE) singing happy songs you get to go to the other room and be all alone and creepy, alone, by yourself, whispering the words to the song and watching Krath settle over the dunes, alone.  (Of course, such a PC would be fun in theory, but I doubt it'd be fun in practice, at least to me.)

Quote from: Desertman on January 15, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
I would love for there to be more emphasis placed on people who are "buddies" with gemmed mages being ostracized and possibly, if not CERTAINLY investigated and almost always harassed by the authorities for their relations.

When I play a southern Allanaki Templar, you folks who are buddying it up with or even banging my gemmed slaves better expect to get some shit from me. Because it is coming and I will make sure my Arm underlings adapt the same mindset.

It would make people who are going to be buddies with mages do it in a private secure setting so that it stops appearing to be the norm in the middle of public commoner taverns.

All of you mages who sit around at the bar in the middle of these taverns and have discussions with each other and even other non-mages about what your magic powers can and can't do like it's a Jenny Craig support group for gickers etc...etc...etc....get ready, because when I play that Templar, your life is going to be shit.

There is also some fancy new code that I've seen in game that keeps certain people out of certain taverns. I wouldn't mind seeing that code adapted to check for gems. This would have not only the benefit of keeping them codedly "out" and away from "common people", it would also create a coded construct in game that would help create a socially accepted construct of truly ostracizing and separating that group.

When you have NPC's in place that do something openly, it becomes commonly accepted by the playerbase that, "This is the way the world works. Staff backs this entirely. I should be this way too.".

Haha, I think my biggest bitch was trying to get the militia to stop trying to force my gemmed breed gicker's mundane human girlfriend into service (where her life would have been heavily regulated, scheduled, scrutinized, and constantly at risk). It's been more than a year, so... yeah. He was always trying to tell her "Just tell them you got some elf inside you, is true!"

Quote from: nauta on January 15, 2015, 12:06:11 PM
I'm curious, having never played a mage, but, um, sorta, well, let's just say, I've watched a lot of you with previous PCs from the shadows: Is it fun at all?  Do you basically just log in for RPTs and otherwise code up the skills in your temples alone?  Are there outlets for interaction that are satisfying?  I'm thinking here of the standard run, the gemmed mage in Allanak.  My hunch is that it would be terrible, the worst of both worlds, just slightly better than a city elf: you are isolated (-and- there are hardly any other PC mages to hang with) -and- treated as a tool.  You can go on those RPTs, but while everyone else is sitting around the campfire (YOU MADE) singing happy songs you get to go to the other room and be all alone and creepy, alone, by yourself, whispering the words to the song and watching Krath settle over the dunes, alone.  (Of course, such a PC would be fun in theory, but I doubt it'd be fun in practice, at least to me.)

being a mage has been the most fun I've had in arma to date. But.. I've played isolated, city-bound or whatever roles many times. I play lots of merchants and such and spend a lot of time in one place. So that helps a lot with my enjoyment. But yeah it's a lot of fun.

Quote from: Desertman on January 15, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
When you have NPC's in place that do something openly, it becomes commonly accepted by the playerbase that, "This is the way the world works. Staff backs this entirely. I should be this way too.".

I don't have anything to add, but well said.  I hope you play a templar. :)

Quote from: Desertman on January 15, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
I would love for there to be more emphasis placed on people who are "buddies" with gemmed mages being ostracized and possibly, if not CERTAINLY investigated and almost always harassed by the authorities for their relations.

I agree, but I don't think the "authorities" should be the ones doing it.  Peer pressure seems more realistic.  

Expanding on the code that is in place for entering taverns in Tuluk, requiring you to be a citizen at certain checkpoints...

For Gemmed, it'd be interesting if a bouncer didn't let them sit at the bar. There is a Gemmed table, over there. Segregation, rather than outright banning them from taverns.

If a mage makes a significant social investment, they'll see a return. Not much of one, but even if they're not "people", you get back a small amount of what you put in. Magick plots can be fun, I mean, I'm not going to lie, the role is quite isolated, but when some doors are closed, others are opened.

This question is sort of pointless, given how mages have been marginalized to irrelevancy in practical terms.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 15, 2015, 01:14:50 PM

Quote from: Desertman on January 15, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
I would love for there to be more emphasis placed on people who are "buddies" with gemmed mages being ostracized and possibly, if not CERTAINLY investigated and almost always harassed by the authorities for their relations.

I agree, but I don't think the "authorities" should be the ones doing it.  Peer pressure seems more realistic.  

Why not, turbo?  I'll give you some reasons why the "authorities" [sic] should be among the ones doing it.

1) The authorities own the gemmed mages to begin with.  It's good parenting to know who your kids' friends are, and to discourage them from hanging out with bad influences.  2) Authority characters (like templars) also tend to be in positions of leadership, and serve as role models for the rest of the playerbase on an OOC level.

Both authorities and the populace at large can exert pressures on those who are friends with the Gemmed, but they don't have to do it for the same reasons.

If I play a psionist in the next few years all I will do with them is mind control NPCs to hate on mages.

Quote from: CodeMaster on January 15, 2015, 01:23:08 PM

Why not, turbo?  I'll give you some reasons why the "authorities" [sic] should be among the ones doing it.

1) The authorities own the gemmed mages to begin with.  It's good parenting to know who your kids' friends are, and to discourage them from hanging out with bad influences.  2) Authority characters (like templars) also tend to be in positions of leadership, and serve as role models for the rest of the playerbase on an OOC level.

1)  Absolutely keep an eye on your Gemmed.  Most Templars I've seen do.  If that Gemmed is doing shit they shouldn't be...such as scaring a bunch of commoners by talking about magick at the bar, by all means come down on them.  That's common sense.  But what exactly comes out of punishing the merchant who sold your gemmed a pair of boots, or the halfbreed whore that took their sid for a little fun.  Or the guy who had a conversation with them at the bar.  No laws were broken, no harm done, unless you're afraid of magick.   The commoners reaction to treat those mundanes with disdain seems perfectly logical.  "Why is so-and-so doing business with the 'gicker?  I'm not buying their boots anymore! "  etc...


2)  The nobles do a fantastic job of "leading the charge" when it comes to disdain for the Gemmed in most cases.  They're the ones that are supposed to be looked up to by the commoners, and are the puppets that the commoners believe control the city through the Senate.  You could argue the noble role's "job" is to create the social framework in their city.  The Templarate uses magick itself.  They're sorcery-wielding minions of the most terrible sorcerer in the world, they're hardly the best people to act as the poster children for anti-magick in Allanak.

It also creates an enormous catch-22 for the Templarate on an OOC level, if they're the ones trying to enforce anti-magickal social sentiment.  They're the ones that employ the Gemmed in most cases, so they're acting as the leadership for the Gemmed "clan" so to speak...  they're also supposed to be the ones that shit in their employees cereal every morning?  "I need you to do this horribly dangerous task for me. "  "Thanks!  Here's 100 sid.  Now go sit in your fucking hole and never let me see you talking to any mundanes.  You'd better not spend that 100 sid in a tavern either..."  How do you take on a leadership role like that?  Impossible to do and still have any fun for either the Gemmed or the Templar involved, unless some people are just in to masochistic roles like that.  

3)  Also, I don't know if you've ever played a Templar, but the role is filled with TONS of things you're supposed to enforce on a day to day.  You have to go run off and interrogate that pickpocket who stole for the 7th time, you have to bitch-slap someone for back talking to a noble, you have to discipline Gemmed that do something wrong, you have to discipline soldiers...All of that on top of the responsibilities of being a clan leader.  Adding yet another thing they're supposed to be enforcing, when the documentation doesn't say anything about this, because some players on a GDB thread felt that magickers should be more ostracized than it currently is...is adding yet another job to their hefty to-do list before they can pursue their own plot lines and interests.

Quote from: Is Friday on January 15, 2015, 01:49:41 PM
If I play a psionist in the next few years all I will do with them is mind control NPCs to hate on mages.

You could...apply for staff....might be a lot easier :p

The biggest problem for me is the disparity between skills. Mages in general have a very level grinding curve across their spells(not to mention attain them all in the same manner), where as mundanes seem to have some skills that go up quickly and others the take ages to grind. It doesn't seem to make much sense when a skill like Backstab or Parry can level up twice as fast as Kick or Listen.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 15, 2015, 02:01:48 PM

Quote from: Is Friday on January 15, 2015, 01:49:41 PM
If I play a psionist in the next few years all I will do with them is mind control NPCs to hate on mages.

You could...apply for staff....might be a lot easier :p

Nah I've got the karma to play one right now.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 15, 2015, 01:14:50 PM

Quote from: Desertman on January 15, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
I would love for there to be more emphasis placed on people who are "buddies" with gemmed mages being ostracized and possibly, if not CERTAINLY investigated and almost always harassed by the authorities for their relations.

I agree, but I don't think the "authorities" should be the ones doing it.  Peer pressure seems more realistic.  

Leaders lead by example.

That includes the leaders and rulers of society.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 15, 2015, 01:56:35 PM
But what exactly comes out of punishing the merchant who sold your gemmed a pair of boots, or the halfbreed whore that took their sid for a little fun.  Or the guy who had a conversation with them at the bar.  No laws were broken, no harm done, unless you're afraid of magick.   The commoners reaction to treat those mundanes with disdain seems perfectly logical.  "Why is so-and-so doing business with the 'gicker?  I'm not buying their boots anymore! "  etc...

I think we're on the same page here.  Your examples are fine (a conversation, a business transaction - no big deal).

Big deals to me would be things like renting an apartment with a magicker, engaging in an ongoing and serious romantic relationship with a magicker, wandering around in the wastes with a magicker, or even threatening one.

These things can and do happen in-game.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 15, 2015, 01:56:35 PM
You could argue the noble role's "job" is to create the social framework in their city.  The Templarate uses magick itself.  They're sorcery-wielding minions of the most terrible sorcerer in the world, they're hardly the best people to act as the poster children for anti-magick in Allanak.

Good sentiment.  I'd agree it doesn't have to be a templar, but an authority of some kind setting positive examples (and doling out negative reinforcement when people act errantly) would be great.

The difference between nobles and templars though is that nobles have the privilege of dealing with the upper classes (aides and that sort), while it typically falls on templars to deal with the majority lower class (grebbers, elves).

For what it's worth, I didn't mean to suggest anywhere that the templarate should start openly disparaging the use of magic.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 15, 2015, 01:56:35 PM
It also creates an enormous catch-22 for the Templarate on an OOC level, if they're the ones trying to enforce anti-magickal social sentiment.  They're the ones that employ the Gemmed in most cases, so they're acting as the leadership for the Gemmed "clan" so to speak...  they're also supposed to be the ones that shit in their employees cereal every morning?
[...]
How do you take on a leadership role like that?  Impossible to do and still have any fun for either the Gemmed or the Templar involved, unless some people are just in to masochistic roles like that.  

I'll disagree by way of example.  I had an elf who got treated like garbage in the Byn.  Dropped in the latrines multiple times, punished for small offenses, distrusted and laughed at.  The sergeants often led the charge, and I don't think they were facing any kind of "catch 22".

I also didn't mind it because I was playing an elf, and the documentation made it clear that he wouldn't be well loved.  If I got sick of it I could always retire him and roll up a human.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 15, 2015, 01:56:35 PM
3)  Also, I don't know if you've ever played a Templar, but the role is filled with TONS of things you're supposed to enforce on a day to day.
[...]
Adding yet another thing they're supposed to be enforcing, when the documentation doesn't say anything about this, because some players on a GDB thread felt that magickers should be more ostracized than it currently is...is adding yet another job to their hefty to-do list before they can pursue their own plot lines and interests.

I would probably put interrogating pickpockets lower on the list than checking into the background of that dude who's trying to "get with" my gorgeous, well-endowed water mage, but that's just me.

No, I've never played a templar.  But part of being a successful templar is delegation, and this is something that you could easily bring other players to the table on.  So if it were me, I'd hire an inquisitor to spy on and check into these guys who are getting too buddy-buddy with the city's gemmed mages.  My inquisitor might determine nothing's amiss (joe grebber is too dumb to know any better)...

...but he might also discern that someone's trying to manipulate one of my valued assets.

I agree, it would be nice if Templars kept a closer eye on those that work for them, instead of being reactionary when the actions of their employees and servants nets them a well-deserved reaction. Part of the key to that would be keeping a close eye on anyone that tries to manipulate their tools, and to really think about the motives behind it and potential consequences ahead of time.

A lot of mages are played by offpeakers. When I log in during dinnertime for me there tend to be few people in general, but many gemmers around.

Having said that, I've had a single character who was willing and in fact did bang a magicker, and especially in retrospect, all I can think now is 'why the hell did things go well for so long?' When you're a walking master of doom having sex with some idiot who can't get a normal girl to like him, for even a minor mishap to happen seems likely.

A solution I'd like to see is for magick to actually become as dangerous as it's implied to be. Not to the extent that there would be no krathi played beyond the ten day mark, but, from the top of my head:

(Note: I'm doing my best not to describe any existant spells. It's not easy, so at least give me some credit and don't entirely remove my post)

A rukkian casting spells, and doubly so at a higher level, might cause an occasional minor tremor or natural deformity to happen. The armour of people near a rukkian weaving spells might degrade a bit because of their effect on matter.

A vivaduan may have fewer adverse effects on bystanders, what with their reputation being better than other mages, but their magics could cause bystanders' clothes to stain with weird fluids or inflict minor diseases/poisons and little miraculous healing acts in equal measure.

A krathi shouldn't really be near friendlies while casting at all. I have seen that the code supports people being set on fire, and their thirst levels could be increased as well.

Elkran spells could cause static currents to shock unfortunates, even temporarily lowering agility in the process.

Drovians casting shit may darken rooms, put out light sources or even curse bystanders with odd, fleeting magical nastiness.

... I got nothing insofar Nilazi are concerned, but people who hang with Nilazi know exactly what they are doing, I reckon.

If you want people to distrust elves and think of them all as thieves, make them good thieves. Since they are, people really fucking hate elves.

Consequentially, I really don't think magick is going to be treated in line with the documentation very well as long as it's more reliable than modern firearm and explosives.

I am not sure if Patuk's ideas would 'fix' things, but I do find them intriguing, fresh, and cool.

... having banged some magickers, I can say this...

It is a bad idea, and it's backed up by code. People get a bit crazy over feelings, and mages are well known to have some scary coded powers. If you want to live, don't be that guy, don't bang the f-me magicker, it's going to bite you so hard you'll wish you'd tried to kiss a mekillot... and no one will feel sorry for you, because they all know you banged a gicker... in fact, they will laugh, as they urinate on your corpse.

Quote from: Fujikoma on January 16, 2015, 09:59:04 PM
... having banged some magickers, I can say this...

It is a bad idea, and it's backed up by code. People get a bit crazy over feelings, and mages are well known to have some scary coded powers. If you want to live, don't be that guy, don't bang the f-me magicker, it's going to bite you so hard you'll wish you'd tried to kiss a mekillot... and no one will feel sorry for you, because they all know you banged a gicker... in fact, they will laugh, as they urinate on your corpse.

Except sex and banging arent code and relationships are not "backed up by code". There is no non-staff intervention actvated code that kicks in for banging gicks.

I think Fujikoma is making a "bitches be crazy" sort of statement.

There's no "bitches be crazy" code

Quote from: HavokBlue on January 17, 2015, 02:06:11 PM
There's no "bitches be crazy" code

Yes, but there is "blast you in the face with a fireball after a creepy stare and a profession of love, along with a confession to having killed everyone they suspected you of sleeping with" code.

Generally speaking, not banging anyone is the way to go if you don't wanna die.

Quote from: Patuk on January 17, 2015, 02:12:51 PM
Generally speaking, not banging anyone is the way to go if you don't wanna die.

Coincidentally... I have a lot of stored PCs. Need more sex... but RPing out is just bleeehhh

I were to play this MUD again, I'd want to see mages get skill-ups at roughly 50 to 33% of their current rate.  This would put them more on the learning curve of a psionicist and make unlocking spells more rewarding.

The other problem with mages is that unlocking higher power levels doesn't make any sense. One can go from doing something like 4 damage with a wek fireball to doing half-giant-thuja-axe-to-the-face levels of damage at mon in 2-3 days playing time.  Probably even less if you're dedicated to getting the skill.

Meanwhile, Amos the warrior has to spend 50 days fighting hawks with rocks in his backpack, holding a dull skinning knife in his off hand, while also riding an inix drunk in a sandstorm just branch his dagger skill.

Quote from: Sephiroto on January 26, 2015, 10:42:07 PM

Meanwhile, Amos the warrior has to spend 50 days fighting hawks with rocks in his backpack, holding a dull skinning knife in his off hand, while also riding an inix drunk in a sandstorm just branch his dagger skill.

As facetious as this might have been intended, I would really like to meet this Amos on the sands one day, drenched in the blood of his enemies with feathers stuck to him and reeking of firebreather, waving his knife around and screaming into the storm.

I have played a few mages and the time it takes to branch spells is fine by me. I think if it took longer it would be insanely boring and dreadful. That is a LOT of solo RP unless you're gemmed, and even then it can be solo if no one else is of your element. At least normal classes can buddy up and go off together in the wastes having fun while they increase skills if they choose to, or in clans and interact. A mage, normally, is feared and hated by normal people, forcing them to be alone or with other outcasts like themselves. Many mages, I have noticed, do not fully branch as they become impatient and go off to test their new found spells out, and never return. Incorporating interaction with the locals along with practicing your curse/gift will put you close to other classes in regards to leveling skills (not talking about warriors because I have never fully mastered a weapon on them so I have no idea how long it takes). Even if you have mages maxxing out faster, it shouldn't matter as they require karma to play, or spec app'd and should be played with higher requirements and respect for what they can do. Just cause a mage is fully branched doesn't mean they are automatically running around slaying everyone they see. I'm sure staff takes care of anyone that gets out of hand with a mage if they are not playing responsibly.

As long as Whirans stay where they're at karma wise, I'm fine with mages.

Every class has abuse potential. Mages being karma required shows that. I think mages are supposed to be scary powerful, which they aren't imo and with the fucked up changes to sorcerer you can bet magicks will never hold the same fear factor again which is a pity.

I'd be happier if there were some changes to the system and mages went up one karma, maybe even two. Assassins too btw, their cloak of invisibility is way way op'd.