Armageddon General Discussion Board

My opinions.. but, they're pretty valid.  One that a lot of people should look at is the first one.  It is important, and seems to be discarded because of the pure POTENTIAL that you might be a twink, or have subtly twinkish thoughts.  I swear, sometimes it's worse than the Catholic Church around here.

The Good RPer will:

1. Consider stats. I like stats. They give me a very concrete idea of what I can and cannot do, and how I would react. Am I clever enough to catch the sublte hints of the other or not, f.inst. A good RP should at all times keep his own stats in mind, and use them to guide his reactions and initiatives.

2. Mantain personality. This in the sense that they will adopt certain behavioral patterns, according to their character, and stick to them in all situations. If you play a gruff, ornery bastard, then be sure to treat everyone that way, and not slip out of character when it suits your purpose. Exception to this should happen only gradually and as a result of normal character development to situations.

3. Inspire others. Both in terms of giving his co-players different avenues of response, but also if possible to provide content to the scene. Rather than another round of fire-side chatting, he will try to give the scene a twist, f.inst. by inviting people to hunt, asking for help on a project (possibly a project made up for the occasion) etc. This requires a healthy dose of creativity, but also consideration, such that he doesn't try to hijack every scene with his greatest new idea. Sometimes, chatting is both good and potentially important.

4. Be considerate. He will write clearly, legibly and uniquely. Unique in the sense that he should portray his char well enough to set him apart from other chars. He will adapt to scenes, and be attentive, such that others are not needlessly troubled by his participation, or lack thereof.

5. Develop his char. Chars should change over time, as new tasks and responsibilities are put on them. Their goals and dreams should adapt as possibilities open. Their oppinions and even personality should reflect the situations they experience.

Quote2. Mantain personality. This in the sense that they will adopt certain behavioral patterns, according to their character, and stick to them in all situations. If you play a gruff, ornery bastard, then be sure to treat everyone that way, and not slip out of character when it suits your purpose. Exception to this should happen only gradually and as a result of normal character development to situations.

Apparently, you've never played a half-elf before.  As it states in the documentation on the race, half-elves can change in their mood/personality very quickly and often.  Sometimes, they may want to be around certain people, and the next moment they may want to be as far away from them as possible, depending on if they need their acceptance or not.  They may change their personality to fit into a certain society that they feel may give them the acceptance that they crave.  Of course, I agree that this should take some time as well, as old personality will bleed into new personality and there may be some holdovers.

Thus, half-elves are the possible exception to this, as their desires in acceptance vary, sometimes quite often and unexpectedly.  

Quote1. Consider stats. I like stats. They give me a very concrete idea of what I can and cannot do, and how I would react. Am I clever enough to catch the sublte hints of the other or not, f.inst. A good RP should at all times keep his own stats in mind, and use them to guide his reactions and initiatives.

Although in many cases this is true, I believe that the concept should override the hardcoded stat in certain situations.  For instance, if your character is burly, yet has awful strength in the code, the character can still be played as being strong.  Maybe they're just unlucky as their hits aren't as hard, or they have other bad tissues and conditions not allowing them to lift large objects.  Also, if a player wants their character to be smart, yet has awful wisdom, I believe that they can go ahead and play the smart character.  The code should only limit itself.

Although I agree with most of all of the points, some are presented a bit too strongly and without consideration for simply the RP of individual characters.  None of these are laid down by the immortals, and everyone has their own idea of what should be good RP.  It can vary from player to player, and from character to character.  As long as somebody behaves realistically to their character and his or her personality (taking into account their racial RP), I see no flaw in RP.

QuoteI swear, sometimes it's worse than the Catholic Church around here.

Also, here's a little tip: don't start your posts with open bigotry like this.  Good job, you've just alienated the Catholics. :roll:

Keeping race in mind was part of the keeping personality going.. half-elves (and half-giants) can switch rather easily, but even then the switch should keep in mind what it's switching to and why.

The stats.. that argument, in my opinion, is ridiculous.  If you want to simply RP without concern for stats, go download AIM and call your friends.

Also..ad for the 'bigotry'..It's a common perception that thoughts of sin are 'wrong' in Catholic Dogma.. It was not an attack..it was an observation.

I think its a great start, good job tryen to throw something together for people. On a side note, I found this a little funny...

QuoteQuote:
I swear, sometimes it's worse than the Catholic Church around here.



Also, here's a little tip: don't start your posts with open bigotry like this. Good job, you've just alienated the Catholics.
_________________
White people like Wayne Brady, because he makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcolm X.
-Paul Mooney

QuoteThe stats.. that argument, in my opinion, is ridiculous. If you want to simply RP without concern for stats, go download AIM and call your friends.

Its not ridiculous and actually quite valid.
You have no say in your stats during creation and may be creating a specific concept. For example the monstrous, burly muscular man with awful strength. It would be illogical to play as a weakling while walking around with muscles the size of tree-trunks, etc.

Im not saying you should totally disregard your stats, but you should not feel confined to them. Just because you have low wisdom does not mean your PC can not learn and BECOME something different, even though the stat doesn't change. Someone who starts out as a frail young man can over time work out his PC and even if his stats do not change would be logically able to PLAY as a bit stronger then his stat allows, etc.

Anon because it just happened.

Macros and scripts are things people use sometimes to help with mundane things like skinning. I won't gripe about that, other than to say how realistic is it to simutaneously sheath blade rem gloves draw knife skin animal rem knife load knife boots wear gloves draw blade without any pause in the action at all, after you just spent time running around chasing an animal, fighting it, killing it, and are now probably just a little slowed down from the effort?

Other than that which I doubt happens often I don't think macros and scripts are a big deal for mundane tasks. But I do thing their a big deal when other people are there because of the spam. So I respectfully request for people who use them to please don't use them if other people are around.

Thanks.

To continue on with the original jist of the thread:

The Good RPer will:

1. Create a character so consistent that their reactions to certain events can be, generally, predicted. This provides a good framework for others to work around, so that they know if their boss/lover/coworker will be screaming mad, prosaically shrugging, or drunkenly oblivious to whatever they choose to do.

2. Conversely, create a character who sometimes surprises others with their actions/reactions, but in a way that makes sense.  Perhaps a temperamental person mellows out when they're spiced, or a timid person becomes bolder as they gain more confidence in a particular job, or a rational person might just act like a lunatic in extreme circumstances.

3. Create a character that is less than perfect.  I'm talking about more than creating flaws, like clumsiness, timidity, or a crippling addiction.  I'm talking more about not being the superhero who can do everything.  I'm sure it's possible to be a) an accomplished artisan b) a perfectly politically-astute aide c) a sooper-sekrit assassin d) a gifted bard e) a lover to rival the best-trained pleasure slave and f) everyone's best friend...but seriously, how realistic is that?

4. Be conscious of the world around them.  Think about how crowded, how dark, how noisy, how dirty etc. the place is.  Think about how you would react, how it might change your actions.  Include things in emotes, for the atmospheric enjoyment of others as well as yourself.

5. Emote as much or as little as they want, but be conscious of, and kind to, others in regard to pace.  If you want to write a novel about the way your cloak flutters in the breeze, fine.  But if it's holding up the general pace of the conversation and you have others waiting on you, "pemo cloak flutters in a faint breeze" is quite enough.  On the other hand, just because you type 3,610,482 words per minute does not mean everyone else does.  Take half a valium and wait a little bit longer for a response.

I may think of more, but that'll do off the top of my head.

Thank you cymerci for paying attention to the spirit of the thread and not needlessly trying to flame.

Also, Gilvar, I have -- for a while -- been an advocate of knowing your stats before you write your desc/bg.. So you don't write up a burly, stupid warrior with abyssmal strength and AI wisdom or vice versa.  It just doesn't make IC sense for the stupid kid to learn languages and all other skills quicker than the scholar..while the scholar hits like a sack of door knobs, but doesn't branch listen for a full RL year.

Quote from: "The Lonely Hunter"I think its a great start, good job tryen to throw something together for people. On a side note, I found this a little funny...

QuoteQuote:
I swear, sometimes it's worse than the Catholic Church around here.



Also, here's a little tip: don't start your posts with open bigotry like this. Good job, you've just alienated the Catholics.
-Paul Mooney

I didn't think it was funny, and would personnally consider this flame-baiting.  While I don't intend to get into a flame war, the Cathloic Church does not believe that just thinking about sinning is a sin in itself.  Everyone has thoughts and temptations.  If I see a pretty woman and think "Wow, I's like a piece of that"  That wouldn't be inherently wrong, but If I sit there and actively fantasize for the next half hour, then I'm probably running into problems.  The key is the active thought and entertaining these fantasies, at least as far as the Catholic Church is concerned.

Breakfast tacos are good.

Quote from: "Sir Diealot"Thank you cymerci for paying attention to the spirit of the thread and not needlessly trying to flame.

Also, Gilvar, I have -- for a while -- been an advocate of knowing your stats before you write your desc/bg.. So you don't write up a burly, stupid warrior with abyssmal strength and AI wisdom or vice versa.  It just doesn't make IC sense for the stupid kid to learn languages and all other skills quicker than the scholar..while the scholar hits like a sack of door knobs, but doesn't branch listen for a full RL year.

We've had this sort of discussion before. Here's what I said last time:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=79769#79769

If people knew their stats before they created their character, there'd be no end of people trying to get round a character with weak stats - whether by finding a way to cancel its creation midway through or by expending far less effort on creating the character, with the intention of making the character a throwaway. If they could have their stats changed to match their description, everyone would be making tall muscular men. It's not an approach that would ever work, given human nature.

Quirk

Quote from: "crymerci"
5. Emote as much or as little as they want, but be conscious of, and kind to, others in regard to pace.  If you want to write a novel about the way your cloak flutters in the breeze, fine.  But if it's holding up the general pace of the conversation and you have others waiting on you, "pemo cloak flutters in a faint breeze" is quite enough.  On the other hand, just because you type 3,610,482 words per minute does not mean everyone else does.  Take half a valium and wait a little bit longer for a response.

I quite agree there! Very well put. The last time I tried to mention that in a post I dont think I put it together as well as that and had the same old flame patrol go off on saying "go load up AIM and play with your friends on there" for even suggesting someone might take 5mins to type out their response so that the droplet of sweat on their brow sparkles like a diamond gently rolling down the jagged crevice of a scar that bridges the the gap between the corner of his narrow lips and the outer edge of his white, unseeing left eye. Or something or other that was so predictable that they would do it that one could wander away from the computer without fear of inconviencing anyone waiting for a reply.

I love good emotes. I like seeing people involve the enviroment. Its great. I try to also. But not to the point that it takes a whole IC day to have one short conversation that would have taken 5-10mins in RL.

Quote from: "Gilvar"
For example the monstrous, burly muscular man with awful strength. It would be illogical to play as a weakling while walking around with muscles the size of tree-trunks, etc.

Having muscles does not mean they are strong or fit. Someone can have a really good body, yet still be weak and unfit. This is RL sure. But just like RL, im sure arm has muscle making drugs.

Ok, let me try to fix this.  I had not meant it to be ANYWHERE NEAR a flame.

It's -worse- than the catholic church around here... it was meant to be a very short, mildly facetious comment to show how caught up everyone seems to be in the anti-stats camp, shooting down any inklings of rational debate on the topic because it is so against what they believe is right.

Also, I don't see the problem with, saying that the Imms noticed a trend in an account that led to them deleting the char. creation mid-way, or having weak characters killed off very quickly, then they could warn, delete, or even remove that account's option of getting anything above 'above average' stats.

As for the Catholic Church comment, from Matthew 5:28-29:

QuoteBut I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

QuoteI didn't think it was funny, and would personnally consider this flame-baiting. While I don't intend to get into a flame war, the Cathloic Church does not believe that just thinking about sinning is a sin in itself.

Jesus does. Or did, depending on your perspective.

QuoteIf they could have their stats changed to match their description, everyone would be making tall muscular men. It's not an approach that would ever work, given human nature.

Never ever, eh, Quirk? You seem to be in the boat that everything should be fair and equal, not realistic. Warriors are stronger than merchants and pickpockets. Doesn't that bother you? A scrawny, manlnutritioned kid can be beat up by a muscled thug in real life - do you deny that?

The random stat generation has been kept mostly because no one wants to code something better, and partly because lots of players hold out the hope that they'll roll uber stats and pwn everyone else. It's not cool, it's not the best, and there are approaches that work. Look at Shadows of Isildur and Harshlands. You haven't done your homework.  :roll:

Part of the problem is also that some stats are perceived(perhaps accurately) as less useful than others. Endurance is the worst, perhaps followed by wisdom. Strength is the best, because low strength comes with a horrible annoyance factor. Strength vrs endurance could be balanced better. A person with high endurance should be able to go longer without water, carry more for long distances, have lower encumbrance, ect.

The ideal system orders your stats for for your character. The average street urchin might have: agility wisdom strength endurance. If the ordering was obvious powergaming, the application could simply be declined.

Edited to add: I got the biblical quote on Masturbation, What does the Bible Say? (http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_masturbation.html). An amusing site.

Hate to get off topic and It is very rare for me to do so, please excuse me but I don't want my last comment to be understood wrong. I would hate for people to view me in a way that is, well, wrong.

The religion comment was not what I was refering to as I make it a policy not to discuss things like religion and politics with most people. It was making a comment like that -with- a sig like that. Just seemed a bit...amusing.

Please stop discussing religion in this thread as it's completely off-topic and is verging on the point of flaming (at which point the thread will definitely be locked). Up to other imms if some of the posts get editted or if the thread is locked now.

I'm sorry for even bringing it up..

The real meat of the post was below that, though the sentiment still stands, that people are too focused on stats being 'teh pow4rg4m3rz thing!' When, in fact, stats.. in RP games where people are differentiated by them in such things as sparring..hunting..learning.. play a role in your character, and how s/he was brought up.  

I'm sick of hearing about how you -could- describe yourself as having worked in the 'sid mines for 15 years before running away..  end up with abyssmal strength, and have it be 'ok' as long as you rp that even though you hit hard, you hit poorly.... Because when you go to the 'sid mines again, and start chopping the 'sid.. you're gonna get a shitty break, and almost no money..despite having swung at an inanimate object..and despite having the desc. of a body builder.

It makes no logical sense. Stop saying it does.

It's not hard to make a background that isn't defined by stats.

I suggest giving it a try so that you can roll with whatever stats your character ends up with. Then you can even come up with extra quirks and explanations for why your character is a certain way re: stats.

I've been lucky so far, I guess - my stats have always made sense for my character. But I never made a background that required having a certain stat be a certain way, either.

Quote from: "Delirium"It's not hard to make a background that isn't defined by stats.

I suggest giving it a try so that you can roll with whatever stats your character ends up with. Then you can even come up with extra quirks and explanations for why your character is a certain way re: stats.

I've been lucky so far, I guess - my stats have always made sense for my character. But I never made a background that required having a certain stat be a certain way, either.

Could NOT AGREE MORE!!

Stats are not the make-all, break all of your character. I describe anything related to muscle VERY vaguely, with all my characters...Thin layers of tangled sinew...Stuff that could be interpreted either way.

I had a character with exceptional strength, and he seemed like a pussy cat.

Regardless...Make a description thats preety strict to your facial features and demeanor..Write up another one after you get your stats, to flesh out the body and such.

Don't see any problems here.

You can always email the mud for change if your stats came out really drastically different, and you want your mdesc to reflect them.

I'm sorry if I don't write vague, undescriptive descriptions.. and backgrounds that leave things completely open, but rather have an idea of what my character is, was, and might become in my mind.. as opposed to just hopping in and making shit up as I go.

Just remember that eyes don't have to "glimmer with obvious intelligence" and muscles don't have to be gigantic balloons.  It is possible to be pretty strong without having inflated muscles, after all.

Obviously, this does not mean your scrawny-looking man can really pull off having AI strength, but it's also possible to just avoid having these things in the sdesc.


Also, remember, you might be suffering from some sort of a mutation or sickness.  Maybe you've got a disease that makes your muscles bulge all the time, or that you only have a six pack because a wild vestric carved it into your stomach.

Agreed, Larrath.. although, since I tend to lean on the side of detail..as opposed to ambiguity.. my ex-miner concept .. or my scholar concept.. should not be intermixable because stats are completely random.  

At the -very- least, staff should assign priority when approving, as they see fit.  wis agi end str .. or however.

Quote from: "Sir Diealot"
At the -very- least, staff should assign priority when approving, as they see fit.  wis agi end str .. or however.

this has been discussed ad nauseum. use the search command, please.

One of the big problems is the fact that you'll get a bunch of strong warriors, smart magickers, and agile thieves. That's retarded. Just make your sdescs general from now on. Believe me, when I made my first character with burly in the sdesc, i felt your pain.

Now, though, my sdescs can go either way. And if I get a stat that is exceptionally powerful or weak, I apply for an mdesc change to reflect that.

The staff doesn't have to do anything of that sort. They have enough on their hands.

Detail does not mean saying "Before you stands a man with muscles so large, that when you look at them, your eyes strain to their magnificense".

You can still describe your character in the most acute of details, and leave out anything super specific to having gigantic muscles. And who's to say that having "average" strength doesn't mean you worked out your whole life? Theres body-builder status...and then theres joe shmoe status.

I think you're focusing a little too much on stats...

I think the ideal roleplayer went along with your other points..Someone who can maintain a personality, whatever and however many that may be, and make his character an example for realism.

I played a skitso a while back...Hardest thing i've done.

I think I played him well..And I don't remember his stats. they were awful.

You can always do what people do in real life if they feel they are too weak...work out and exercise...I'm sure if your a warrior and have poor strength or are a thief with shitty agility and you RP it out, try to solve it ICly by doing specific exercises for a while, the imms will look down kindly on you.

QuoteOne of the big problems is the fact that you'll get a bunch of strong warriors, smart magickers, and agile thieves. That's retarded.

Yeah, that is up there on the list of 'most retarded things I have heard of'.

Quote from: "Kalden"

QuoteOne of the big problems is the fact that you'll get a bunch of strong warriors, smart magickers, and agile thieves. That's retarded.

Yeah, that is up there on the list of 'most retarded things I have heard of'.

in a RPI environment, I'd say it is.

People aren't born with good strength, and think, I'm going to grow up to be a warrior!

And people aren't born agile, and think, "I'd be a great thief!"

And people sure as fuck aren't born smart, and want to be sorcerers.

In zalanthas, you deal with the cards you're dealt. Your guild and subguild chioce should come from your background, NOT your stats.

If it wasn't meant to be that way, it would roll your stats first, then let you write a background.

Is it retarded to say that kids with big muscles grow up to be football players and jocks?

Or that  bookish kids grow up to be nerdy scientists?

The question is whether stats or some 'inner choice' decides our profession and abilities. Unfortunately, genetics tells us it's the former. I can grow up wanting to be a jock all I want, but I'm not not beefy enough. I've tried, and I am, sad to say, only mediocre. My class is truly not athlete.

When you say that kids make the choice.... what kid makes a choice in Zalanthas? They do what they can to survive. A dexterous kid picks pockets. A brawny kid finds he can shove the dexterous kid down and steal his food. They follow that pattern, and classes emerge.

There are exceptions. Watch Rudy, the movie about the scrawny little football player. Exceptions, especially when they're common as shit, are not realistic.

A sorceror, obviously, depends on his mind to memorize an obscure language.  

An elemantalist has an advantage over other people from the start, and thus doesn't develop any survival skills. His mind, like ours, is left to languish and imagine. He is the only one who favors a stat that he wouldn't naturally lean into, but the fact that he has the luxury of philosophizing and also speaks an arcane language makes it more likely he is smart.

Well this is reflected in skills, rather than stats.    People with an aptitude for using weapons might grow up to be warriors, etc., regardless of raw strength.

It sounds like the best way to make sure all warriors are strong, all thieves are agile, etc. would be to give some kind of bonus based on guild choice.   I don't like that personally.   I like having guild and stats be independent of each other.

There will be physically strong warriors and physically weak warriors, but what they have in common is an aptitude to learn all about the use of weapons.

Aptitude to learn is reflected in stats...it's called wisdom.  Aptitude to learn certain things is based in guild...but what you have the aptitude to learn is based on choices made in childhood...and some of those choices are based on the child's stats, basically.  A strong and agile child would quickly learn that he has a physical advantage over the neighboorhood kids and may turn into a bully (warrior/thug) or a protector of those weaker than him from the bully (warrior/guard)...while the kid that was a weakling, but smart, may simply learn to make things and talk his way out of conflict, (merchant/con-artist).

The only guilds that I could see no choice in, based off of childhood stats, would be the elementalist guilds, as that is something you are born to.

Personally, if people's choices were monitored and they didn't just play warrior with the same stat-ordering every time (as that's worse than someone that only plays one guild over and over again) I would have no problem with stat-ordering.

Oh I don't really have a problem with stat-ordering either (as long as age related modifiers are applied AFTER the stats are re-ordered.  Otherwise it's a cheesy way to avoid age modifiers.  Or rather, to get around them working the way they are intended to work.).

I just don't agree that there's something inherently wrong or pointless with having stats that are something other than the archetypical warrior, theif, etc.

Oh, agreed completely, flurry.  Any modifiers, like race and age should be done after the random role that determines your stats.  Instead of going, roll 3d6 for strength, then for agility, then wisdom, then endurance, add modifiers as appropriate...roll 3d6 four times, assign values to stats, add modifiers.

I think this robs us of something, being able to order stats.

Many guilds, and I believe non-elven thieves are especially suspectible to this, are forced into their trade.  Maybe someone wanted to be a water seller but had to resort to theft?  Or maybe some aspiring merchant was forced out of business by one of the Merchant Houses and was made to work as a mercenary to fill his mug?

On the same coin, a guy who wanted to be a Red Scorpion or a Militia guy might have been rejected and forced to steal or bully and then hawk the goods...etc., etc..


Yes, yes, I know.  If we can order stats, we can have these people be statted appropriately, too!  But is that a good thing?  I say, let's have the strong and capable warriors be the cream of the crop and not every average Joe.

If your character is SO reliant on having uber stats, just special app.

"Hello, I would like to make a warrior whose purpose will be to create a band of raiders and systematically destroy House Kurac.  The character is a former laborer of the House, but was also taught the basic concept of trade by an aide he befriended.  He escaped under such and such circumstances, blah blah blah.

In order to make this concept work and to more realistically reflect the character, I would like to have the following statistics:  str - exceptional, agi - above average, wis - good, endu - very good."

Is this particular special app likely to be accepted?  Probably not, but then again, people send special apps for muls, psionicists, defilers and were-gwoshi.  Everything is possible, and if you have a good enough concept, it just might be possible.


Obviously, you should not start special apping Tatlum and Kentu-speaking defiler muls with all-around AI stats and an immunity to psionicism and bashing weapons.

I have dibs on that one.

Ordering stats isn't the same as setting them. When you order your stats, you're just saying "I want my highest stat to be wisdom, next highest endurance, next agility, last strength." You still won't know what wisdom will end up as until the roll shows up...but you'll know, at least, that if you DO end up with "average" wisdom, all the other ones will suck eggs <snicker>.

I know I'd have liked to order stats on previous characters...because one who had AI endurance really didn't have any use for it. But she -really- could've used better physical strength.

Another one had "good" strength, but average wisdom. If I had the option, I would have loved to place her wisdom as a priority and strength either 3rd or 4th down the line.

So again - ordering the stats doesn't mean you're saying "I want the "good" stat to go here and the "very good" stat to go there. You're saying "I want whatever stat ends up being the highest of the four to go there."

That..would be what I am an advocate of.

But, obviously, I am a sickening powergamer for wanting realism in the fact that -- people who swing weapons all day get either more agile, or stronger.. and people who spend all their time memorizing a dead language usually expand their mind's ability to remember.

There was an experiement done in london where it proved that taxi drivers have build their memory, and spatial ability, due to their profession.  

Pro Atheletes obviously build their bodies, either to be stronger or more agile.

And thieves/street magicians build their nimbleness up by frequent use of those facilities.

Yeah, Larrath...if you're playing a water-seller that had to turn to theft, you should be playing a merchant/thief...and if you had a crappy agility, you probably would have turned to prostitution instead.  I mean, people do what they have a chance to do, not necessarily the first thing to come along.

Hey, hey hey.. -no- prostitutes with crappy agility.. I'm getting tired of breaking them with my HG.

:D

It could be a Merchant/Thief or it could be a Pickpocket/anything else.  

The 'Merchant' guild is for people who are actually merchants; speak Cavilish, haggle, sometimes make stuff, all that.  Water sellers are just hawkers that don't really haggle all that much.

The point I'm trying to make is that making misfit characters is not a bad thing.  I'm not saying we should all make Merchants and join the T'zai Byn, but misfit warriors who are NOT fit to join the most elite force of fighters is a good thing.

It's my dream where "the brawny, towering man" goes to House Tor and gets rejected because he's just not l33t enough.  I know it might be bad for people who do want to play in House Tor, but I'm still against the idea of ordering stats.  If it's crucial, special app.  If it's not, just roll with the blow and find something different to do with the character, or play it anyway in spite of the bad stats.

Ah, see.. that's where the change in order comes in.  Lets say you make Billy the Wannabe Tor!

But, all his life, Billy had to run-run-run  from the bigger boys... So, while Billy had high endurance..and maybe agi.. his strength never got that good..

Billy can't join Tor, even though it's his life goal..

BUT! Billy's stats -do- make sense with his background. Hence the realism.. Hence the way the RPI should be run, imo.

If everyone doesn't make the brawny, hugely-muscled warrior, ordering stats is a good thing.  People that abuse ordering should be treated like someone that abuses everything else.  Why make everyone have to come up with excuses after character creation, adapting everything to their newly rolled stats because a few may abuse something?  As I've said in the past, nearly anything could be abused, but I'd like to think that we can trust the majority of people to NOT abuse anything that comes their way.

Why is it abuse if every politically-inclined character said that 'wisdom' is obviously their greatest feat, or every pickpocket obviously had to be more agile than he is durable?

I think that the chance that you will become some bumbling misfit whatever-guild-you-picked is a good thing.

However we put it, a system in which stats were chosen in order would be vastly superior to the one we have right now. A few people argued that if stat ordering was in place, every warrior would pick a high strength or endurance, theives would opt for agility, crafters for wisdom... This isn't really true. After all, by the same logic, every warrior would pick dwarf for his race, while thieves and crafters would all be playing short elves with an ear mutation. As long as you hide it well enough, nobody's going to know, IC (or sometimes even OOC) that you're not human, just as nobody's going to know your stats. Sure, there's a difference between picking a suitable race and suitable stats. A race might actually affect role-playing, whereas stats don't, but there's a reason for that - stats have nothing to do with IC behavior because they're some random numbers rolled up by a server that couldn't care less about your character concept. If I design an intelligent, hardy, weak and clumsy character, and play him out that way, do you think I'll ever take his stats into account?

As it is right now, if stats were in any way visible, you'd be forced to adjust not just your physical appearance, but also your whole character concept to suit them. Low wisdom? Well, obviously, your character's either a moron, absent-minded fool, or chronic amnesiac. Take your pick. High strength? It wouldn't make sense for your obese self, who never worked in his life and never will, to be able to pull his fist up without help, let alone punch a muscular man in the face. Still, you can always blame it all on luck... But why keep trying to deliver blame on everything but the problem itself? Right now, stats don't exactly show up before you start sparring, although they do stir up a mess whenever skills have to be used.

The arguments that "you can get around it" are pointless. It's a problem, and one that can very easily be solved. You don't "get around" a problem when you can solve it. Suppose your race was randomly chosen, and you had to get around that. When it came to writing a main desc, you'd try to make it as generic as possible, avoiding mention of almond eyes or the color of your hair (which may or may not exist). In the end, you'd create a generic character description and background that could suit any race. Good for you. You'd also have to deal with that chubby dwarven pickpocket of yours, who will spend his whole life either failing at something he's completely unsuited for, or trying to make use of his natural strength as a warrior, only to find out that the code prevents him. So maybe you wanted a human pickpocket instead... Well, that's what special applications are for, right?

QuoteI think that the chance that you will become some bumbling misfit whatever-guild-you-picked is a good thing.

If stats are truly randomly assigned, then there's a fifty-fifty chance that you'll be a bumbling misfit at the guild you picked... And a fifty-fifty chance that some other guild would be useful for your character to have. Now, would the character himself have chosen the inappropriate guild, if he knew how much he sucked at it? Maybe. Should it be up to the player to decide? Yes.

Also note that some characters (fighters and rangers come to mind) don't exactly depend on a single stat. A fighter might start out with a high agility and a knack for learning from the enemy in mid-fight; he would use combat techniques that fitted these natural traits. If I put these techniques into my background, I'd rather not see my character start out with high strength and low agility... Even if it made him extremely powerful, it would be unrealistic and, yes, unfair.

If abuse is a concern, why not allow only those with 3 or more karma to set the order of their stats? It's not like they're the type to twink out.

I do see a few problems with introducing stat-ordering to Armageddon, however. One of these problems is that there are only four stats to decide the character's physical and mental prowess. Generally, the less you have, the more a character concept will come to depend on a single one of them.

However, suppose some of the four stats diverged into two different ones: "metabolism" would split from endurance, "perception" from agility and "concentration" from wisdom. Metabolism would handle such things as hunger and thirst, as well as the effects of poisons, while endurance dealt with everything else. I'm not sure what perception would affect, other than skills, though concentration could deal with, crafting rolls (not skill gain, though), the ability to learn from "teach" commands and the use of the Way. Each of the new stats would take over certain skills, so "perception" would give bonuses to listen and peek, for instance. Combined with a stat-ordering system, this would give people more room to design their characters' coded abilities, bringing the code and role-playing into harmony.

I'm sure someone's going to say that more code means less role-playing... Well, I'll argue that the more accurately the code supports character concepts, the better it is for the RP. Right now, the code pretty much ignores the character.

Actually, there are 8 stats. Strength, wisdom, endurance, agility, health points, stamina, stun, mana.

Remember that "stats" refers to "statistics," which is a numerical measurement.

A ranger who shows up at age 28 probably didn't just walk into the bar and decide "hey - I think I'll be a ranger!" He's probably been preparing his body and his mind over the last 28 years for the task of setting off into the wilds. His natural stamina will be in better shape than Lord Fancypants Fale, who only needs enough stamina to keep him awake when he's kanking his bed slave.

A guard or soldier will have a higher natural strength, because they have prepared prior to the character ever showing up in the game, to build muscles and make them capable of holding a Vorpal Buttfucker With Massive SAP Crits +5.

A merchant will show up in the game already having a better general understanding of commerce than the average guard/thug, but he will know the value of Psi and Barrier better than the average guard/thug - and so his stun points might actually be on part with the average guard/thug who gets smacked around in the head fairly often in the sparring ring.

All excellent points.

All unsupported by the current system.

All vehemently fought against as 'unrealistic' by Larrath and co. (not singling you out, you were just the most recent).

Correct me if I'm wrong... but aren't things like "getting stronger through training" and such reflected in skill increases?  I haven't played any 20+ day old warriors or such, but I'd imagine a 20 day warrior with crappy stats could still kick the ass of a newbie warrior with good stats.

I know some people are going to hate me for saying this... but sometimes I wonder why stats aren't hidden from the player just like skill levels.

That'd never work, Moe.  People DO need to have a general feel for how agile they are without having to go test it on things.  They'd know from over their years of growing up that they're a bit stronger than average. or clumsy as an ox in a china shop, or able to remain doing strenuous work for a while longer, or that everyone they knew figured everything before they did.

Quote from: "Marauder Moe"Correct me if I'm wrong... but aren't things like "getting stronger through training" and such reflected in skill increases?  I haven't played any 20+ day old warriors or such, but I'd imagine a 20 day warrior with crappy stats could still kick the ass of a newbie warrior with good stats.

I know some people are going to hate me for saying this... but sometimes I wonder why stats aren't hidden from the player just like skill levels.

My reasoning for stat increases...

I start out with "average" strength. This is because up until this point, I've lived an "average" life, and my muscle mass is "average" and I haven't really done anything significant to change the capacity of what I can handle.

For the next three years, I go on a specialized course of training, including weight lifting, aerobic exercise, long hikes in mountain regions with a thinner oxygen supply, working slowly but steadily over the three year period.

After that period ends, my -capacity- to be strong has increased.  My muscles don't merely look stronger than they were when I started. They ARE stronger. I can do more now than I could before - not just because I learned how to use a broadsword with finesse and skill - but because my muscles work seamlessly with that weapon to wield it with less effort than when I was merely "skilled."

Skill and ability are two completely different things. That is why we HAVE stats in the first place. And if skills can increase, theoretically, stats should be capable of increasing as well.

I have no problem with my warrior character starting out with "average" strength. My concern is more if my warrior starts out with "average" strength and "very good" agility. It's a waste of a stat that would have worked just fine for my character concept if it was only average, and kinda puts a damper on the stat that would've been better served with that "very good" mark.

The same with a magicker/archer with lousy strength and wisdom, but really uber agility and endurance. How am I supposed to cover my magickal abilities by claiming I'm an archer, if I can't even wield a bow because my strength is too low to allow me to do so? And how can I practice magick if I only have 60 mana and it takes a RL hour to get it all back? I'd be pretty useless, with no other method of acquiring food and water.

So - I'm totally in favor of stat ordering. But only if the order is determined prior to learning what those stats will be.

Just a humble sidenote regarding the original discussion..  would like to add that I really appreciate the dialogue of many players - discussions of ideology, (possibly made-up) current events, culture and the everflowing cycle of change (yes, even in Zalanthas) - even, or especially, when its just stuff about some new fighting style that Sarg soandso is developing, or the dire need of preserving the noble breed of kanks from some now-enslaved tribe.  Or... whatever.  Stuff that keeps the game dynamic, without blowing-up a city-state and calling on the staff to code it up again ;)
   It just brings the world alive, by painting the issues that are whirling around our characters, besides their own personal goals of better gear and killing/usurping their superior's place.  Not to say that isn't good fun as well.  :twisted:

Singled out?  I'm just voicing my own opinions here, and I don't represent any groups, particularly not the nazis. :P


Now...I don't think the idea suggested here is nonsense that should be discarded and then burninated, but I am still against it.  Will I be kicking myself for it when my next warrior has below average str and 65 hp?  Possibly.

Even so, I still don't see why stat orderings are needed.  Bestatte is saying that she has a high roll on Agility that would better help her character if it was on Strength.  *This* is what I am against, as, to me, this is simple min-maxing.

This is how your character is born, and I don't think this thing should be removed.  I know I wouldn't mind trading some of my agility to boost strength IRL, but this is not how things work.  You don't have to be strong to be a warrior; you could just have a natural aptitude for it.

I think that Zalanthas is not a world where every guard is brawny and powerful and every merchant is cunning, and this goes for PCs as well as NPCs.  People do whatever they can to find their next drop of water, and if your stats are so drastically different, you could, yes, move *around* the problem.

Personally, I don't think there is a drastic difference between ordering stats to simply picking them, at random or not.


Where was I?  Oh yes.  If your character started out with low strength and is working out, there is a new helpfile called 'stat increases'.  If you depend on having a stat at some value (like with an archer being too weak to use a bow), you can email the MUD and see what can be done.  Maybe you can be given a weaker bow?


Picking races is involved with roleplay, and this IS a factor and a reason why there are more non-elven merchants than there are mutated elves.  No, my merchants would not has been elves even if they could act like humans.  If I wanted a human merchant, I'd pick a human.  If I wanted a half-elf, I'd do a half-elf.


Alright, I think I'm reaching the point where I'm starting to just repeat myself over and over.

To summerize: I think this is not a good idea because it will make every character almost perfectly suited to whatever profession they have chosen.  Good and 'appropriate' stats should be rare and valuable, and not special but just like everyone else.

If your stats are being an impossible barrier and you cannot have your character work out to try and improve them, it is always possible to send a polite email to the MUD and see what can be done.  No, this doesn't mean they have to boost your stats, but in if it is truly SUCH a bother, maybe you should ask them...though again, if you are not strong enough, why not pick up a couple of rocks and start to lug them from place to place ICly, then save logs and ask for a stat boost?

Yea, What Larrath said.

I'm personaly against stat ordering in any form other then what we already have from careful choice of race and age.

QuoteYea, What Larrath said.

I'm personaly against stat ordering in any form other then what we already have from careful choice of race and age.

Ditto here.
Stat ordering makes it possible for people to order against the weaknesses of nonhuman races and allows them to minimize the handicap those races are supposed to have, if you get it randomly then by all means...if you get it by picking it out every time...seems pretty twinkish to me.

Quote from: "Larrath"
This is how your character is born,

The rest snipped out, because this is the -MAIN- point of the argument.

My character is BORN with a higher capacity for strength.  That character is more likely to turn to the path of the warrior.  

My character is BORN with a higher wisdom or agility than most.  That character is more likely to turn to the path of a scholar, scribe, or thief. Especially if they have low strength.

Not ordering stats is like that episode of the Family Guy, post-apocalyptic, where Peter hands out jobs to people at COMPLETE RANDOM, giving the Doctor the town idiot..and the mule the dentist position..


It would be, in real life, if this happened, possible for Mike Tyson to be a school teacher, and Stephen Hawkings to be a professional Basketball player.

That, to me, does -not- make logical sense.  Sure, it can be abused.. but so can the knowledge gleaned from past characters.  A -lot- of things can be abused, but that abuse can ALSO be watched by staff.  There is logic and realism behind my way, and complete 'OGM ZALANTAHS SI A HARSH WOLRD!!!111' rote behind the other.  I have yet to see a -good- reason for Not allowing it, other than the potential for abuse, which can easily be monitored by staff with staff-notes on accounts.


Edited: because bath and path are two very different things.

The reason is that a strong warrior should be something SPECIAL.  Agile thieves should be a commodity to whatever stable would employ them.  Smart merchants would be assests to their employing Houses.

If every PC is strong, wise, or whatever else his guild requires, it will dilute this specialty and make it irrelevant.  I think this should be preserved.


The idea is that if you want your band of raiders to all be strong humans, you will actually have to *search* instead of being able to settle for any warrior you'd find, since they are all strong.

The lack of that would be the exploitation that the staff would stop.  I'm actually up with the idea that only Karma 3 (although I say 1 or 2, because it's hard enough to get your first karma) should be allowed to Order their stats, and.. if they CHOOSE to play a bungling fool.. then they have that CHOICE.. if they CHOOSE to actually define themselves as something different, due to the way their life went before hand, then that makes sense.

But, spending all your days in the Sid mines, to end up with Abyssmal strength just doesn't add up, and REALLY removes the fourth wall.."

Ugh - Larrath I think you're missing a very important factor here:

We do not determine the stats themselves. We determine ONLY which stat will be the highest, whatever "highest" ends up being.

So if I have worse than average, average, good, better than average...and I picked a whiran...which is something you are born with, not something you learn to become...

Then it would just plain make sense that the wisdom would take the good - or at LEAST the better than average. It would naturally fall there ANYWAY - because a whiran is BORN to be a mage. They are born with that innate talent engrained in their physiology. They stand out amongst their non-magickal brethren because of some quirk of fate that has given them a power that they can use, and others cannot.

If they end up with good strength, and less than average wisdom, they can't just say "Oh well, I'll never be a good mage, I'll go be a dentist instead." or a farmer, or a merchant (a merchant who doesn't speak cavilish, who can't craft anything other than shriveled masses of burnt meat, who doesn't know a wheel from an inix when it comes to piloting, who can't negotiate a price to save their lives...RIIIIGHT). A warrior? Yeahrightsure. How about an assassin? With what weapon, exactly - since they'll be piss poor with any weapon they try to use?

What good is "good" strength if the vocation you were born to do has no use for strength? What good is being a whiran if you lack the mana to cast, and the wisdom to regain mana so that you can - without sitting there for a RL hour waiting, that is?

Same for a ranger. If you show up at age 22, you're old enough to know what your general strengths and weaknesses are. You might not know how to hold a bow yet, but you sure as shit know that all your life people have told you that you'd make a great bowslinger because you are just so damned agile and good with your hand-eye coordination. So you pick ranger - and show up with "poor" agility. Uh - okay - so we'll just try for a really weak bow, right? Bzzzzt...there are no bows that will work for you. I guess I'll be a umm..uh...err....kank seller, yeah. So much for submitting a character application complete with background and goals.

This is why - again - I support stat placement. Not determining the stats. But determinine which ones will get the higher of the unknown random roll and which will get the lower. We pick our guilds and subguilds because we have a few ideas in mind, and immediate goals for our characters, and some notion of the kind of thing we want our character to do. That is also part of the application process where we have to give a background for our character. It doesn't happen all that often, that our stats don't coordinate with our class/subclass. But it does happen occasionally, and I feel that it makes good logical sense for our stats to support our character concept, which has already been approved by staff via our character background.

Quote from: "Bestatte"So if I have worse than average, average, good, better than average...and I picked a whiran...which is something you are born with, not something you learn to become...

First of all, I think that the power of the connection one has with an elemental plane should vary from person to person.

Quote from: "Bestatte"If they end up with good strength, and less than average wisdom, they can't just say "Oh well, I'll never be a good mage, I'll go be a dentist instead." or a farmer, or a merchant (a merchant who doesn't speak cavilish, who can't craft anything other than shriveled masses of burnt meat, who doesn't know a wheel from an inix when it comes to piloting, who can't negotiate a price to save their lives...RIIIIGHT). A warrior? Yeahrightsure. How about an assassin? With what weapon, exactly - since they'll be piss poor with any weapon they try to use?

Second of all, I've never found that my character is unplayable because of a randomly-alloted statistic.  Race is a far more important factor from my experience, and so if you're tired of your characters being weak, stupid, or slow, then stop playing humans.  Don't argue for a change in the way stats works when it won't increase or decrease the amount of playable characters.

It's not playability, it's realism.

Playability will NOT suffer from the change.  Realism suffers now.

I haven't read this thread, because it seemed to be the same arguments presented over and over in different ways. I personally think players should be able to increase their stats. As always, I'm not a coder, but I've seen a setup where a pc typed train stat str/wis/con etc, etc. The code would engage them in a series of forced emotes to show what they were doing, very generic, so the player could expand on this with their own emotes.


At the creation process, a player was given a set number to their stats, and they could detract from some stats, and add to others, within reason. So a player, knowing what they planned to be, could work their character to someone represent this. Sneaky characters put more focus into agility, but lost out in other parts.

Then upon actual creation (approval here), maximums that were hidden were generated as a number at random between the starting number and 100, and one never knew when they would "max out" until they reached it.
So for instance, a character with 70 agility, 25 str, and 30 wisdom would have maximums set between 71-100, 26-100, and 31-100 that they couldn't see. The higher your "prime" stat, the better chance you had of getting a good number.

Now, this may seem redundant, and some may ask 'why work towards random max outs when we already have maxouts already done'. The answer is simple. Only on very,very rare occasions, can a person not improve themselves. In the mind, a person may just simply be stupid, and unable to attain a higher thought process. But anyone can make themselves stronger, faster, and tougher. And it gives something else to work on.

Anyhow, I'm threatening to get long winded. So, I'm done. If anyone takes any intrest in this suggestion, feel free to implement it. *wicked grin*

Infinite Rerolls!  Infinite rerolls now!  Still random, but you can spend up to 2 hours looking for that perfectly suitable combo if you really, really want to.


AC

I would be in favor of allowing you to do a +1 or +2 to a stat as long as you had a corisponding -1 or -2 to another stat.  You would still roll your stats as normal, they would just have a slight adjustment made to them after the rolls too place.

Now we've switched spots.. I disagree, as it's twinky.. It's just not the same as saying.. even though I may not be the strongest.. my -best- foot is my strength.

Same thing.  Being a good warrior does not mean you have to be stronger than you are durable, or quick, or cunning.

These types of warriors arell exist, really.



A fast warrior might try to use flashy manuevers/feints and minor acrobatics to throw his opponent off-balance and make an opening.

A durable warrior's fighting style could be to simply trade blows as equally as he can, or to bull-rush people.

A cunning warrior could be using the environment better, or setting up complex fighting-traps (not pitfalls, tricking your opponent to thinking you'll hit high and then kick their faces as they duck).

A strong warrior could just stand there and hack away with a sword or whatever.


These are all warriors, and they can all do well, really.  And it can make for some cool emoting, I'd say...a signature fighting style is always good.

Larrath, you may be surprised by people's choices on stat placement if they can choose which stat is highest.  I for one know that not all of my warriors would have strength picked as #1...nor endurance.  It's all a matter of preference, really, on what someone thinks fits their character, and not everyone is a twinky idiot.  This 'but everyone will do this' argument is getting really old.

And now I understand Larrath's point. He doesn't understand.

If I want a quick, dextrous warrior..and I app a quick dextrous warrior.. I DON'T WANT AI strength.

If I app a slow, not-that-bright elementalist, who still has a connection to (element)..I don't want Good wisdom.

Stat placement is to be used to make the character work, not twink out.

So age affecting stats would need to get yanked and it get completely randomized?

That's been my big concern/objection.    It's absurd to just decide strength is the best stat for your 13yo character, and override the aging guidelines.   (That's why I think if we had stat ordering, age modifiers need to be applied after the fact.)

I also think if someone chooses to order their stats, they should have no opportunity to reroll.

Or people should be able to completely pick their stats?

Look, I already put my view on this.  I don't think it's a good idea because I believe it will do more bad than it will do good.

I did not accuse everyone here of being twinks and I don't think everyone here is a twink.  I'm even reluctant to say that Armageddon has one twink out of every five players.


We have enough twinks to make this a Bad Idea instead of a Good One.  This is my personal opinion and not an attempt to shoot anyone down.  Except this idea, I guess. :P

Quote from: "flurry"That's been my big concern/objection.    It's absurd to just decide strength is the best stat for your 13yo character, and override the aging guidelines.   (That's why I think if we had stat ordering, age modifiers need to be applied after the fact.)

I also think if someone chooses to order their stats, they should have no opportunity to reroll.

In essence, when you log into the HoK you have the option or ordering your stats or taking a random roll and having to opportunity for the reroll or just being able to order stats without a reroll?

To me either works, except in the case of the former I'd imagine a good number of people would opt to order stats except for some grumpy hardcore RP folks and the folks who's concept can work with nearly any stats.  I'd also imagine a lot of people putting wisdom either first or second though or at least being very, very tempted too.  (I would be.)

I personally favor the idea of ordering stats, but I still like my random rolls for when I don't care.

Ness and I were talking about this yesterday, along with different possible implementations.  I'm not saying it's something appearing immediately, but I did want to let you know that we're at least trying to susss out what it would involve.

Quote from: "Miee"
In essence, when you log into the HoK you have the option or ordering your stats or taking a random roll and having to opportunity for the reroll or just being able to order stats without a reroll?

I meant it the first way - having the choice of either ordered stats with no opportunity to reroll, or unordered stats with the option to reroll.

I kind of like my random stats.  I just like to be surprised.

I like random stats, partialy for the suprise and partialy because it adds a uniquness to each char, even if somebody is playing cookie cutters, at least there will be something different from the last one.

I do not like ordering stats, I've stated such many times.

I also think it is silly that people make these chars with a "concept" That is so totally dependant on a stat.

"Look, it says right here in the sdesc that he is almost as big as a half-giant and covered in muscle!!..But he has poor strength and AI AGI...he is simply unplayable as a burly warrior!!"

Bah.
As for us "Hardcore RP folks" Excuse me...I was under the impression this was a "hardcore RP" mud...GASP.

I also think that in the end, you WILL end up with a game of cookie cutter pc's stat wise, A majority of warriors will take str first then end then wis then agi, the rangers will take str, wis, agi end, the assassins and pickpockets and burglers will take agi wis str end, the elementalists/sorcs/mindbenders will all take wis/agi/end /str...Maybe not 100% but 80% will. And thats for the humans, the non-humans will order stats to cut down on racial negs, no reason for a city-elf assassin to put agi first, he has high AGI anyway, so, what is he lacking, Ah, strength.

Again, Bah.

The current method allows for enough control while still giving the world a nice randomness to the pc's, because even though we have a huge number of mdesc and sdesc described muscled brawny warriors because the players can't come up with anything else, at least the game randomizes for us, they may all look brawny, but they are NOT all brawny... :)

Saying that stats aren't part of a character concent is just ridiculous. If a character's stats wasn't part of the concept, then a smart half-giant would make a valid concept for half-giant character. Stats are a part of your character, unless you ignore them, which we shouldn't resort to. But, I'm against stat ordering for the points Larrath brought up.

EDIT: And I agree with X-D, we shouldn't make concepts that depend on stats.

Quote from: "X-D"...

Bah.
As for us "Hardcore RP folks" Excuse me...I was under the impression this was a "hardcore RP" mud...GASP.
...

See.  Grumpy? :D

No, I was referring to the folks that would sit there and grump and post constantly on the boards that the old way was better and those of us who like the new system aren't real RPers.  The "RP Nazis" that require x amount of emotes before typing kill and 5 line emotes as to how your cloak is dancing in the wind like a well trained Borsail love slave and we all need to conform.  I keep hearing them mentioned.

I for one, don't see anything wrong with designing a PC that's supposed to be very agile, for example.  One just has to keep in mind that the scores won't work out like that.  Thusly, said bendy PC could hurt themselves on logging in, have the agility but no sense of balance, or just play it off as a misleading appearance.  So long as you, the player, are flexible, these things can work out fine.

ME? Grumpy...Nah. :)

QuoteThe "RP Nazis" that require x amount of emotes before typing kill and 5 line emotes as to how your cloak is dancing in the wind like a well trained Borsail love slave and we all need to conform

I see them and I start speaking like mr furious off mystery men.

Anyway, Myself, I've never even considered building a char in a manner that requires him to have certain stats to match up, and am even willing to ask staff for a sdesc and maindesc change if they came off too far off, normaly they are willing to do such things is asked nicely and if very early in the char's life. (IE not involved with a lot of people who would notice said sudden change) Often the change can even be minor, sometimes not even in the sdesc, only a few words in the mdesc.

X-D, weren't you one of the people griping about how many items a HG could hold for crafting purposes?  Ordering stats is a much better solution I believe, than making everyone able to carry more stuff.

Actually, no, Though I posted on the threads about some fun with HG and low AGI, I did not "gripe" about it and crafting, Sure, it's a pain in the ass if you have a HG who has AGI too low to craft anything but the simplest items, but, well, it is a HALF-GIANT. In a way it makes sense and is EASILY roleplayed, Um, DUH, Me too clumsy!

Or somesuch, Besides, What you state is exactly what I'm talking about when I say people will order to minimize racial stat drawbacks.

Though, Allowing everybody to carry an extra say, 2 items in inv is a simple and contained solution to a problem, and would have little effect on anybody not playing a low AGI race. Though in no way do I think it is important enough to be put into effect any faster then watch was.

*sigh* 'Hardcore RPers' should want ordered stats.  For the reasons posted above, such as being able to play a character that fits the background you wrote.  ARM IS HARSHers are the ones who want random stats because, without thinking through your character, having a thief who spent his life running, and thus has high endurance, isn't a valid concept to them, unless it make that thief SUCK at everything else, and has him die at 3 days in. Sorry..that's edging the line of flaming, I just get annoyed when people mislabel things.  There is a difference between wanting rp Role Play, where you decide which role you want to play, from good-at-the-profession to bad-at-the-profession, and just wanting random stats because it makes coming up with generic cookie cutter concepts easier.

Personally, I think that -not- basing a concept around stats is silly. Is it realistic for ubar slow Mr Clumsy to aspire to be an assassin, or even -have- the potential (starting skills)? And some people may say "but that's origonal", and I say it's about as cliche as it gets. Everybody wants to be different. Everybody wants to be unique, and have the most bizzarre concepts. Thank fucking God the imms demand certain things like hairless dwarves and stupid half giants, because I know there'd be people out there wanting to be the first dwarf with hair, and would have some ridiculously complex concept.

I love this mud for it's realism, and it's where the realism stops that I find dissapointment. Like characters knowing who you are even with a generic hood that hundreds/thousands wear, and a facewrap because they noticed your blue eyes and black hair. What the fuck ever. Or, to stay sort of within this post, or at least what I read of it.. characters who are based completely off their stats.

I want to see agile thief types, mainly. No clumsy idiot becomes a professional burglar irl. I want to see tough soldiers even if they aren't particularly strong, fast, or bright.  Imagine an NFL team bringing in a 110 lb, 5'4" punkass and placing him as a tackle. Rudy, anyone?

I agree there can always be exceptions.. but if you're going to ram skills as constants for classes, then there should be some leeway with stats.

Anyways, I'm tired, and fired up, and ranting again.

I still say that rerolls are the simplist solution, if not the most elegant.  Infinite rerolls might be a bit much, :D but 10 could work.  In 10 rerolls you have a good chance of getting something that is reasonable for your race/age/guild/subclass/concept combination, while still retaining a random element.

It isn't perfect.  There would be a few more AIs and Exceptionals around (but not 10X as many).  The best part of this solution is that it could be implimented immediately.  There is already a mechanism in place to allow a reroll durring the first 2 hours, it shouldn't be hard to adjust that to allow more than one reroll.


AC

rerolls are the opiate of the masses!

Quote from: "Avril"A few people argued that if stat ordering was in place, every warrior would pick a high strength or endurance, theives would opt for agility, crafters for wisdom... This isn't really true. After all, by the same logic, every warrior would pick dwarf for his race, while thieves and crafters would all be playing short elves with an ear mutation.

Hmmm, I dont think so. Dwarves arent just about better combat stats, and elves arent just about higher agility for thieves... not everyone wants to have their warrior's career dictated by a fixed focus, or be shunned and condemned by all the human racists. If someone made every of their sneaky characters a mutated short elf with round ears I'd be VERY unimpressed with them.

AC, you were kidding about 10 rerolls, right? You've got to be kidding. With 10 rerolls we'd have a lot more PCs with miracle stats, I find it quite a positive thing that there are soandso many average Joe's. And I'm not even one of those ancient, evergrumpy ARM IS HARSHers.  :wink:

How about 2 rerolls instead on one?

Or, alternatively, how about we assign 'minimum stats' to certain classes. It really does suck when a warrior can hardly hold a spear AND shield, AND wear his helm... realistically, he should have gotten a bit of muscle mass during the initial training of his career. It also sucks to be a ranger who cant use a bow, thats just too harsh. Or an elementalist who is as smart as a box of pebbles.

What I suggest is that 'average' is the minimum stat for certain attributes of certain classes. A warrior could never have less than average strength, a ranger never less than average agility, a magicker never less than average wisdom. This would not increase the chance for an exceptional stat, the rolls for 'poor' and 'below average' would still be there, but automatically be replaced with 'average' for the stats in question.

NO NO NO! that RUINS the whole idea.

ordering is COMPLETELY different than 'minimum' stats..

If I WANT to play a bungler, I want to be able to order my stats 'wrong' for my class.. If I want to be aver, I want to be able to order my stats AS PER my background.. If I want to play an ub3r character..then I'm being a little twinky, but if it's only once in a while, and I rp it well, I should be allowed to order my stars towards the 'right' way..

Also, if you set str as your highest..and you roll poor poor poor below average.. Strength gets the below average, and your character is a weakling.. but a weakling THAT MAKES SENSE WHEN COMPARED TO HIS BG.

QuoteOr somesuch, Besides, What you state is exactly what I'm talking about when I say people will order to minimize racial stat drawbacks

Yep exactly.

I'm also noticing a trend in people who are arguing in favor of stat ordering to avoid this very valid and relevant point entirely.  :roll:

Yeah.. I avoided it... except to, repeatedly, say that staff can easily watch for twinks.

Oh wait..isn't that the only part of the argument? Looks like that's dismissed.

QuoteYeah.. I avoided it... except to, repeatedly, say that staff can easily watch for twinks.

Oh wait..isn't that the only part of the argument? Looks like that's dismissed

Oh, Wait, look, yes, Why did I not see the logic the whole time....it only makes sense for the staff to do the work to put in stat ordering so that they can have even more work searching out people twinking with it.

Now, on a less sarcastic note (IE To everybody else) Though as I've said, say no to stat ordering, but, since Sanvean said she and Ness have been talking about it, that means there is at least a minor possibility that it could happen.

With that, I would like to suggest that #1 It be an option in chargen that you can bypass for the nice random method. #2 If you choose ordered stats you get no reroll option. Now, keep in mind, these next to choices, one or the other would be implemented, not both. #3 If you choose total random you can either (my fav) Be able to go back to your first roll if the second set is even worse (I've had it happen) Or have an extra reroll.

Though, I still think stat ordering focuses too much attention on stats, is too twinkable, will cause too much work for no real benefit and in the end will make exceptional stats average thereby helping to make every pc average.

I honestly do not see the need for stat ordering, even with the reasons presented. The random element is something I have grown to appreciate and something that is very easy to work around, and, dare I say it, work off of. One can easily take the stats a character has and work out what exactly they translate to in an RP sense, during the first few hours of play. If you really want, you can even email the mud to detail it, but I usually just stick it all in a wordpad doc.

Stat ordering is really not something I think Arm needs.. it's just another number to focus on and another thing to watch out for re: twinking. Especially with the racial advantages and disadvantages as they are - sorry, but though I do expect some will be responsible, there will also be many who will make strong elves, smart half-giants, etc, etc. I hate to sound like one of those "grumpy old timers", but being as I'm not, and 5-liner emotes are usually quite superfluous: No, stats really do not matter much. Some, but not much - and the way they do matter relates to character development, not skills.

I just really can't help but get the feeling that a lot of people want to play the 'exceptional heros' - and while I suppose there's nothing inherently wrong with that, having a flawed character can be infinitely more fun, because it immediately gives you a 'hook' to work off of. Off the top of my head - the aspiring Krathi that struggles to remember the most basic formulae, the sly wannabe thief that keeps tripping over his own feet, the tough little warrior that's quick as an erdlu but sticks to knives because a bastard sword is about as big as he is tall. It could be fun..

I prefer the +1, +2 or minimum stat level to ensure you don't get the mage with poor wisdom, etc.  I would consider stat ordering to be the next most preferable solution, but I'd rather have minor manipulation than stat ordering.

People twink out clothes-making. Shit, they twink out idle. Folks will twink out everything. So please, no more retorical !twinking! cries, and just look at the addition it will bring to the game.

I mean, what is the difference between a randomly produced stat line and a randomly produced main and short desc? According to you, nothing, but I bet if that was implemented you would flash fire.

Yes to stat manipulation and/or ordering.

QuoteI would like to suggest that #1 It be an option in chargen that you can bypass for the nice random method. #2 If you choose ordered stats you get no reroll option.

I agree that if it's added this is the way it should be.

And Venomz we are looking at what it will bring to the game -both- positive and negative. To some of us this added potential for abuse is too much of a negative to merit the minor positive affect it would have.

Sure it wouldn't matter much if everyone was human, but there are other races that get their -coded- drawbacks from stats. I know myself that I've thought well this would be much easier if it weren't for the coded drawback...oh wait, it's being harder it what made it fun...if it wasn't, it'd be a form of powergaming.

Oh yeah, and twinks suck too.

Here is another idea, I think I like this one the best.

Alright, instead of stat ordering in chargen you make yoru char as normal.

Enter game, point map then check your stats, Now, at this point you can Either reroll self one time same as now, OR reroll a single stat up to two times. And not two stats once either, Once you pick the stat with the first reroll then it is the only one you can reroll again.

This leaves reasonable balance AND would be VERY simple to implement while allowing people to kill off that one really bad stat.

Keep in mind, I'm still against stat ordering and manipulation...hell I'm against the above suggestion, but not as much as others. Personaly, for 95% of cases (there are some special cases) stat manipulation should be handled through RP, e-mail, logs and staff.

I'll someday role-play an extremely wise, extremely focused dwarven character, who might develop huge philosophies based on the act of chipping rocks, and experiment with so many stonecrafting techniques, that he'll completely ignore the point of getting better at stoneworking. This is a perfectly legitimate dwarf - he's obsessed with trying out everything, in every conceivable way, and finding new unconceivable ways to try out everything. Do I want him to have high wisdom for his race? Of course. It's in the character's nature to discover, but still possess that inflexibility which makes him extremely methodical in his "research". This means he'll be a bit less worthless at crafting than any other dwarf, but he'd still have to practice a lot before getting anywhere. I realize a boost in wisdom might not help at all, code-wise - like Socrates in real life, he might never bother to train his stoneworking skills. Still, it's a valid character concept, and one that deserves to be sustained with appropriate stats. I'm sure many character concepts are like that.

Assuming stat bonuses are the same for all abilities regardless of race (so "exceptional" would always mean +50, for instance), a boost to one stat would mean a decrease to another. By giving himself more strength and less wisdom, an elf would be effectively removing both his racial advantages and disadvantages. I don't see why this would be considered "twinking out", since it would mean losing as much as you gain. This isn't taking role-play into account - people are still going to think your strong elven warrior is a good thief, when that's not exactly true.

Personally, I'm surprised nobody mentioned min/maxing stat advantages. If I were an elf pickpocket, I'd go for AI agility - who needs endurance when you never leave the city, wisdom when you never fail, or strength when you never need to carry around heavy armor? The only problem with min/maxing is that some classes rely entirely on a single attribute, making it too valuable for either the player or the character to ignore. As has been said many times, idiots don't become researchers (unless we're talking industry-funded research, in which case agility is the key trait).

QuoteIf someone made every of their sneaky characters a mutated short elf with round ears I'd be VERY unimpressed with them.

What about half-elves? You don't even have to be a mutant, and you still get the neato stat bonuses. Sure, it may not be all-out elven agility, but at least you don't have to role-play being anything more than an over-sensitive human, either.

Quote from: "Avril"What about half-elves? You don't even have to be a mutant, and you still get the neato stat bonuses. Sure, it may not be all-out elven agility, but at least you don't have to role-play being anything more than an over-sensitive human, either.

Well, I'd disagree with that, I don't think half-elves are just over-sensitive humans at all.

The half-elven conflict goes a lot deeper than that - and to top it off, they could very well consider themselves more elvish than human. At best, they're misfit freaks that belong with neither but desperately wish they were one or the other, and are constantly - whether subconsciously or purposefully - attempting to "fit in" however their upbringing and past experiences have taught them they should. At the same time, they're usually angry at themselves for what they know they really are, and angry at everyone else because of this - and thus never quite succeeding in fitting in, or if they do, they'll either not be satisfied with it (i.e. even their best is never good enough, because of what they are, etc, whatever), reject what they've recieved outright, or struggle with/against it in some form or another. Of course, the ways that this comes out can be plenty varied so far as interpretation and character personality goes, but it still remains an inherent part of any half-elven psyche.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"People twink out clothes-making. Shit, they twink out idle. Folks will twink out everything. So please, no more retorical !twinking! cries, and just look at the addition it will bring to the game.

I'm not concerned about twinking, but I still haven't been persuaded why this is needed.  I'd rather people's descriptions fit their stats than their stats fit their descriptions.

Then give us our stats before we make the characters.

I'm a proponent of either one.

Oh, and whoever was all uppity and such about the staff having to do more work.. If the staff is doing their job -- reading the backgrounds -- it would take about three seconds to process whether the stats make sense or not...

I have one and a half strong words for all the nay-sayers in the audience.. "C'mooooon."

"Email the staff if the stat is so bad that it makes your character virtually unplayable in a matter that cannot be repaired ICly (by working out or emoting difficulty or whatever)" is not the same as saying "just bother the staff if you want better stats, man".

If you are playing a professional strongman who makes a living lifting heavy stuff for money and you have 'below average' strength, twice, I don't think it's such a crime to email the staff and politely request a stat-change and including an explaination of why this is so important.


However, if you are playing Amos the Swashbuckler #52341 and you have average/above average strength and it's not enough because you think he should have very good/extraordinary/whatever strength, well, I say, suck it up, lift weights ICly, keep logs (with dates) and send the staff an email after an RL week or two (assuming you train every RL day and have a log) and get your boost.  This is written in a helpfile, it is perfectly legitimate to do this.


As far as I am aware, by the way, your stats are not rolled until after you leave the Hall of Kings.  Type 'score' there sometime and you'll find all your stats are 'poor'.


C'mon what?  Why should you see your stats beforehand?  The idea is to -not- make optimized characters.

That's not what I've been saying AT ALL.

Work on reading comprehension dude, seriously.

Note: not a flame, simply an observation that he REFUSES to get the point.

QuoteNote: not a flame, simply an observation that he REFUSES to get the point.

I think this is going both ways bud, you don't seem to be getting the point of anyone's reasoning against stat ordering. Your coming across as: You want it, you don't care what negative affects it could have on the game just so long as you get it.

Just the way your coming across IMHO.

point taken. However, since it would be an option, and could easily be monitored by staff, the other arguments don't make much sense to me.

Especially when the proponents of the other side don't even take the time to try and understand where I'm coming from and, instead, spout the same thing time and time again.

Maybe because where you are coming from makes no sense to us.

The thought of a char concept that revolves around stats is simply boggling to me. The thought of an intelligent person who KNOWS the stats are random building a char that has to have certain stats...again..BOGGLE.

What is even worse is when the player can't manage to suck it up and have the char take a diff route.

And maybe the fact that you do not seem to be looking at the larger picture at all, or the way it might effect the rest of the game in the long run.

Something I've spoken of in other threads on this subject, but if ordered stats or "optimized" chars come into effect, eventually the balance of npc power will be upset and the staff will simply have to make them more powerful to bring the balance back, of course, essentually that would mean instant death by npc for anybody alone and under 20days played if they left the gates, But hey, who cares right?

Do any of you think about the over all far reaching effect on the game and game world and you chars if it goes into affect? It means many more assassins might live long enough to be able to kill with one hit, many more warriors and rangers able to roam the wilderness killing everything in sight, and more pick pockets able to steal the pack off your back, burglers able to clean out whole apartment complexes in an hour.

If even 10% more of any of these could be 10% better they would live longer and you WILL notice and I doubt you will like it much.

I didn't say I was going to build a character based on stats.  I said I wanted my stats... you know, those things that define how your character works in the world.. strong, fast, tough, smart.. to MATCH UP with my idea of my character.  I don't want all my warriors to have strength first.. If I want to make a quick, dodgy type.. I want to be able to make a quick dodgy type.  It might even be -necessary- to the RolePlay that he's not the toughest guy in the ring, but damn it's hard to hit him.. I don't want to have to play a half-elf to be able to do that, I want to be able to order my stats.  

Actually, I think you're missing my point.  When I say dodgy type -- I don't MEAN that I want AI agility.  I mean that I want to have agility that is higher than my strength.  stat ordering is customization, nothing more. It DOES NOT affect the heigth of your rolls, it simply makes them match with your concept.  Class bonuses are twinky.. they force people into a cookie cutter, where I want to be able to differentiate between Toughy McAxeWarrior and Dodgy McFencer.