Armageddon General Discussion Board

Should masks that cover up your mdesc also conceal any keywords?

I say yes, just because it allows for more RP oppurtunities.  Impersonating someone, having a double, etc. etc. etc.  Right now that can all be ruined oocly and in some cases icly by going "look (name)"

Assess -v should still give the same feedback, so you can tell the difference with a little thought.

Comments, ideas, pointless voting?

Is there a reason masks in particular would be treated differently than anything else that conceals the person, such as hoods, facewraps, etc.?

I may be wrong, but I thought there was such a thing as a mask which hides mdesc.

*shrug*

Masks that hide your main descriptions are no longer given out in game.  If you find one, you should typo it.  Staff might occasionally give out masks that hide the mdescs if IC circumstances warrant it, but this is done on case by case basis.

Quote from: "SailorMars"Is there a reason masks in particular would be treated differently than anything else that conceals the person, such as hoods, facewraps, etc.?

Not talking about your average hood or face desc.  I'm specifically talking about items which delete or alter the mdesc of a person so that when looking at them all you see is their eq, no discerning features.

Hoods and facewraps conceal sdescs, not mdescs.  And to FJ, they exist if you can find them.

Edited to add:  Didnt realize they're supposed to be restricted now.  Poll still stands valid though unless staff thinks its a discussion that shouldnt take place.  Keywords can leak who someone is very easily, should they be disabled while the mask is on?

I can recognize someone by their voice, walk, size, movements and many things that aren't always described in emotes. So, no, I don't think keywords should go with masks.

Actually..
take "The buff, tattooed-to-hell warrior man"
this he-man puts on a mask.
the short male wearing an uber-face mask of death is here.
:) i love it, he is no long buff or tattooed unless you looked at them :)
Anyways..
No, I don't think they should cover up keywords, because your blue-silver eyes would still be seeableand those elite muscles you blew up.

Quote from: "ashyom"Masks that hide your main descriptions are no longer given out in game.

Why, exactly?

They are abused.

It is left up to the players to decide themselves how much of a character's features they see, same with hoods, face-wraps, veils, etc. Also, main-descs are not just facial features, and when those type of masks were worn they removed any perception of other physical characteristics including height, weight, hair-color, body-scarring, tattooes, that the player may have chose to include in their description.

Its unrealistic to assume that just because a person is wearing a mask that you'd be at a loss to describe these other, traditional, things included in a description. And on the flip-side, it would be unrealistic for a person to disregard the fact that your wearing a mask.

And then my personal opinion, but most of the masks in game are not solid-slabs worn over the face, they pretty much still reveal the eyes, and lower-portion of the face and hair. Its kinda like the gag with 'Robin' in batman's mask. Why couldn't people figure it out? He was basically just wearing big glasses. The fact that they were completely anonymousizing the person is silly.

QuoteThey are abused.

It is left up to the players to decide themselves how much of a character's features they see, same with hoods, face-wraps, veils, etc. Also, main-descs are not just facial features, and when those type of masks were worn they removed any perception of other physical characteristics including height, weight, hair-color, body-scarring, tattooes, that the player may have chose to include in their description.

So now instead of one person abusing a mask, a whole audience abuses a person by ignoring the hood/face-wrap/veil/etc?

Yes.  A bad apple spoils the whole bunch.

The problem is that the masked person usually stands to lose a lot more than the people who might recognise him.

It is very frequently the case that people who have in reality been victimised by some sudden or violent crime do not recognise their assailant later or have difficulty describing them to the police, even though that assailant was not making any attempt to conceal their features. This phenomenon does not carry over to Armageddon; recognition of that raider or thief is pretty much a given. Going to the next level of concealment, with a hood or veil, would in reality be sufficient to make positive recognition very difficult for most victims; by the time you get to a mask, recognising someone closely enough to be able to pick them out of a line-up of people of similar build would be very hard.

Of course, this doesn't address the issue that voices are likely to be harder to disguise, and while seeing someone you only ever saw hooded and masked is unlikely to bring back memories, hearing their voice may do so.

As far as Gilvar's comments about masks not revealing height, weight, tattoos, scars and hair colour - hair colour apart, all these other things can be revealed by a combination of assess and look. Scars and tattoos that are uncovered are present on the body. Assess reveals height and weight. Hair colour is likely to be hidden by a hood in any case.

Shifting the burden of good RP onto a larger group of people i.e. all those who see the masked victim, when the stakes are likely much higher for the smaller group, seems to me a rather odd way to handle it.

Quirk

<slips Quirk $10 under the table>

He wrote my post for me, you see.

Another reason that masks were removed was that they were inconsistent and illogical. There was no rhyme or reason to what items qualified for the mask flag and what items didn't; it was basically arbitrary.

Additionally, people hoarded and prized ingame items for OOC reasons. Suddenly a rugged piece of sandcloth (with the mask flag) became more valuable to players than a metal ring or magickal sword. People would go to great lengths to get these items that were, ingame, indistinguishable from similar items but had the mask flag.

This then presented additional problems, as there was no logical reason that the piece of sandcloth with the mask flag wouldn't be easily reproducible by anyone, after all it was only a piece of sandcloth. And if, logically, the mask could be reproduced by anyone, then everyone would have masks, making for a very, very messy world with everyone running around with concealed mdescs constantly.

Thus, for the sake of game play and balance, the masks were removed. The primary argument against removing the mask follows: it's nice to have "cool" items ingame that people strive for and fight to obtain. However, those items need to make sense and be consistent with the reality of the game.

An argument could be made for the ability to change or hide people's mdescs. I think, though, that this ability would be better served by making a workable disguise skill than having an item ingame that works for everyone and anyone that happens across it.

*edited for additional thoughts and clarity*

I said no for all the reasons addressed above.. It is an Rp thing, A main desc holds a lot more info than just your face.

Quote from: "Bakha"And if, logically, the mask could be reproduced by anyone, then everyone would have masks, making for a very, very messy world with everyone running around with concealed mdescs constantly.

While the criminal fraternities would obviously seize on masks with delight, I suspect they would be rather rarer among law-abiding citizens. Wearing your hood up offers a measure of concealment, but most people keep them down in taverns and other places of public meeting. Now, while someone hooded is not necessarily bent on wrongdoing, someone who is masked likely is, and I would suspect that the militia would crack down on those wearing them within the city boundaries.

Given that criminals would adopt them in droves, what would be the likely result of them doing so? For starters, their fears about being recognised would be to some degree assuaged, and likely the number of murders would drop slightly, as letting the victim live would become more affordable. The role of the robber or raider who interacts with her victim would become far more playable. Recognition would still be possible, given that the details of dress and build and age and scarring and tattoos are perfectly decipherable even on mask wearers, but it would carry a substantially greater risk of misidentification than it does at present, which would be a Good Thing IMO.

In reality, when a group of thugs decide to rob a bank or shop, they pull stockings over their heads to afford them a degree of anonymity, and the descriptions that go out for them tend to be based on the sort of information that is readily accessible in game without use of the main desc. Arbitrarily restricting this does thoughtful criminal RP few favours.

Quirk

Quirk, anyone with enough money to buy a length of sandcloth can wrap it around their head and thus has a mask that hides their facial identity as much as any I've seen in game.  It was silly that a mesh facewrap would hide your desc but an orange sandcloth veil didn't.  Either all masks needed to hide descs or not for things to be consistent and I think they made the right choice.

Frankly I'm glad to no longer see NPCs being killed for their desc-hiding sandcloth wraps and no other reason.

Quote from: "CRW"Quirk, anyone with enough money to buy a length of sandcloth can wrap it around their head and thus has a mask that hides their facial identity as much as any I've seen in game.  It was silly that a mesh facewrap would hide your desc but an orange sandcloth veil didn't.  Either all masks needed to hide descs or not for things to be consistent and I think they made the right choice.

Frankly I'm glad to no longer see NPCs being killed for their desc-hiding sandcloth wraps and no other reason.

That was pretty much my point. Extending mask flags to everything that makes sense to use as a mask would not result in the end of the world. I'm not claiming the betwixt and between made sense, merely that a proliferation of masks is not necessarily going to result in anarchy and chaos.

Quirk

Quotemerely that a proliferation of masks is not necessarily going to result in anarchy and chaos.

Yes it will.

Quote from: "Dirr"

Quotemerely that a proliferation of masks is not necessarily going to result in anarchy and chaos.

Yes it will.

Could you give a few reasons as to why you believe that would be so?

Quirk

I'd be more in favor for a disguise skill to give to assassins and burglars.  But what about raiders?  Can anyone seriously distinguish any features not included in assess and assess -v if someone were to wrap sandcloth around their face and wear a heavy cloak or robe?

As far as walking style and voice, that stuff should be similar in the raiders RP style in my opinion.  People using such masks should be taking care, sadly I dont think that the people who are getting a crime committed against their chars or are in a crowd are as likely to play it realistically in regards to recognizing the person if they were to see him/her again.

Also this isnt just for thief types.  Its currently by code impossible to try to impersonate someone or set up a double, mainly because anyone can go "look (name)" and immediately tell whether you are that Winthrol whose ring and clothing you stole, or the thief whose doing it.

Thats my take at least.

Quote from: "Quirk"merely that a proliferation of masks is not necessarily going to result in anarchy and chaos.

I do not share your faith in mankind.  Having been the victim of many a 'I'll do what I want first then interact/worry about reality/emote later' situation I don't think anonymity will help matters at all.

More than anyone magickers would benefit from this unfairly.  Change your clothes, pop on your completely desc-hiding mask and go wander around the 'rinth/alleys/wilds practing your magicks.  If someone sees you doing this your only fear is of immediate reprisal.  If you can escape, you are home free since you do not have to worry about being found out and having your cover blown.  Magickers able to act with impunity is a scary thing, especially considering the varying viewpoints on what is realistic in a given situation and varying levels of willpower to resist attacking/messing with someone just because you can and have a lame excuse.

Anarchy and chaos is taking it a bit too far, but if you reduce in game accountabilty for IC actions you are going to see an increase in activities that wouldn't be engaged in except for the sudden ability to do them anonymously.  It's just human nature.

Quote from: "CRW"

Quote from: "Quirk"merely that a proliferation of masks is not necessarily going to result in anarchy and chaos.

I do not share your faith in mankind.  Having been the victim of many a 'I'll do what I want first then interact/worry about reality/emote later' situation I don't think anonymity will help matters at all.

More than anyone magickers would benefit from this unfairly. Change your clothes, pop on your completely desc-hiding mask and go wander around the 'rinth/alleys/wilds practing your magicks. If someone sees you doing this your only fear is of immediate reprisal. If you can escape, you are home free since you do not have to worry about being found out and having your cover blown. Magickers able to act with impunity is a scary thing, especially considering the varying viewpoints on what is realistic in a given situation and varying levels of willpower to resist attacking/messing with someone just because you can and have a lame excuse.

Anarchy and chaos is taking it a bit too far, but if you reduce in game accountabilty for IC actions you are going to see an increase in activities that wouldn't be engaged in except for the sudden ability to do them anonymously.  It's just human nature.

Look at this the other way. People are restricting themselves from doing things that would be neither unrealistic nor out of character because of the unrealistic ease of recognition. Why should a magicker who's gone to some pains to conceal their identity have their cover blown by being instantly recognisable? As it is, a hooded magicker caught practicing has to be ridden right up to and looked at to be recognisable - surely something few people in their right minds would do - and the sole deterrent which keeps magickers from hooding up and heading out into the wilds is that people cannot be trusted not to ride up, look, and ride away. Magickers would not be able to "act with impunity" in civilised areas, but outside them - who, sensibly, is going to stop them?

Masks do not make you impossible to recognise. It makes recognition a little trickier, because you have to rely on the more generalised description of body shape given by assess -v, and you have to go on their scars, what they're wearing, their tattoos instead of the hidden facial features - but this is all realistic.

Finally, this isn't blind faith. I used to imm on an RPI on which hoods provided far more cover than they do on Armageddon, and it was impossible to tell the hooded person's features at a glance. I would not say that the quality of RP on that RPI was superior to that of Armageddon, but nonetheless few people put up their hoods save to keep off the weather or, with criminals, for purposes of concealment when undertaking some action likely to embroil them in trouble if they were recognised. And the hooded people were recognised and tracked down on occasion, even without the benefits of an assess command, because they were not careful enough about varying their "working" clothes or they were caught changing.

Quirk

QuoteMore than anyone magickers would benefit from this unfairly. Change your clothes, pop on your completely desc-hiding mask and go wander around the 'rinth/alleys/wilds practing your magicks. If someone sees you doing this your only fear is of immediate reprisal. If you can escape, you are home free since you do not have to worry about being found out and having your cover blown.

I don't see how this is unfair at all, seems realistic to me.

I have to agree with Quirk about this, I think that it would open up more rp for raiders and such without having to kill first out of fear that the other player is going to be a twink and run off telling everyone key parts of your desc that they wouldn't have been able to see because of your mask.

QuoteMasks do not make you impossible to recognise. It makes recognition a little trickier, because you have to rely on the more generalised description of body shape given by assess -v, and you have to go on their scars, what they're wearing, their tattoos instead of the hidden facial features - but this is all realistic.

Assess -v gives such a generic description that it becomes useless, as it is the same for a very large proportion of the population. In addition, any semi-intelligent creature would cover up their tattooes... The only thing I can find feasible is body language, but half of the people don't even emote enough to make that a realistic possibility.

Also, some of the long descriptions describe body figure and the like, why would it be covered up with a mask? Unless description is restricted to just facial features, I see this addition unnecessary and unrealistic.

I am completely against desc hiding masks. Someone with say, a hideously burned one-eyed face, four missing fingers and a bent back, is going to have that facewrap seen through when he approaches me.

QuoteI am completely against desc hiding masks.

I am too. It makes absolutely no sense to me. As many have said, it takes much more than hiding the face to disguise someone. I am in favor of a disguise skill though.

The vast majority of mdescs chiefly describe the face and then briefly describe the body shape. Even if you could excise the face from the description, the body shape would still be more distinctive than is realistic. Consider:

QuoteHe has a rangy body, narrow-shouldered and narrow-hipped.

QuoteNot one ounce of fat can be found on his lanky frame.

QuoteTall and slim, he is muscled only lightly.

These three descriptions describe exactly the same body shape, highlighting different aspects. There is no point of disagreement between them, no means by which one could be distinguished from another. And yet, people would use them to differentiate and be convinced that they were being sensible in doing so, because they were not using the face.

The face is one of the chief means we have of telling our fellow humans apart. Body shape is not for most people so distinctive that we can use it as reliably. Few of us have not at some point mistaken a stranger, seen from behind, for someone who we know closely, even given the additional information of hair colour and style.

There are very few PCs, percentage-wise, who have the four missing fingers and bent back, or distinguishing features remarkable enough to make them memorable when masked, so memorable that they could not conceal their identity. That small minority, I would hope, would include in their emotes their obvious deformities.

The way I see it, it is those who observe the veiled and hooded PCs that are the greater worry. The people who somehow can see past the opaque veil and determine that the concealed face beneath is horribly burned.  The people who can tell the rangy, lanky and skinny tall people apart. The people who will recognise someone they saw only once before in a stressful moment, hooded and veiled, much later right across a crowded room.

As Dirr pointed out, assess -v gives a very generic description. But that's all you should have when dealing with a hooded and veiled PC or NPC that is not deformed or freakishly mutated - a very generic description. Recognising the same person later in different clothing and different surroundings should be difficult, but currently it codedly is not and so people take advantage and recognise the raiders and the thieves and the magickers anyway. When your PC walks through the streets, he or she passes scores of people who could fit what little you've seen of your elusive foe; but it's never VNPCs who're dragged off as magickers when a PC sees another PC casting, no matter how scant the information that could reasonably be gleaned from the sandcloth-shrouded figure originally seen.

Quirk

I don't read mdescs anyway, unless I get into an indepth conversation with them. It makes more sense, to me. So I do it.

It also works 'cause i'm lazy and mdescs bore me.

I agree with quirk, even though he waits to bust out his point in two sentences embedded in his last two paragraphs.

Quote"The way I see it, it is those who observe the veiled and hooded PCs that are the greater worry."

Quote"Recognising the same person later in different clothing and different surroundings should be difficult, but currently it codedly is not and so people take advantage and recognise the raiders and the thieves and the magickers anyway."

First off, I did not vote.

Second, I agree with Quirk.

Third, more to the staff here.

Would it be possible (code wise) To change the mask flag...or make items work together but not apart?

Example, No reason a mask on its own would cover mdesc, but, a big hooded longcloak, combined with a mask/facewrap and maybe something for lower body? Say two to three items min.

Good idea X-D, instead of a singular item covering main desc...a combination of things would do so...nice...

As Quirk said, the way it is it's abused more by the observers...and the one trying to conceal themselves is the one who always gets screwed in the end by other's unrealistic rp.

The ability to hide a main desc with a mask along with the short desc through a hood is just too much. If you want a mask that can cover your main desc, then email the mud with a good reason.

Why is it too much? The only reason I can see people being against this is that they want to be able to figure out who a hooded person wearing a mask is...when in reality they wouldn't have shit to go on.

Quote from: "jhunter"Why is it too much? The only reason I can see people being against this is that they want to be able to figure out who a hooded person wearing a mask is...when in reality they wouldn't have shit to go on.

Yea, but then people will cover up both mdesc and sdescs, and then rob somebody, and then the person that got robbed wouldn't be able to recgonize them at all later except by assess -v, and um. . . um. . . that's not FAIR!

:mrgreen:

QuoteWhy is it too much? The only reason I can see people being against this is that they want to be able to figure out who a hooded person wearing a mask is...when in reality they wouldn't have shit to go on.

Because if you I saw someone wearing a mask, I'm sure to know more about them than just their clothes and height/weight, which would require me to read the desc and decide what things to notice and what to ignore depending on their clothes, weather, light, position etc. A freedom in my RP that I tend to enjoy.

This has given me an idea.

Why not make it impossible to look at somebody who is fighting, subduing (or being subdued), as well as impossible to look at anybody at night.

Eh?  I imagine you're trying to be sarcastic.

To any who have mentioned the idea, disguise would suffer from the same as the mdesc masks, namely, the propensity for abuse.  I don't mind the masks myself, just would keep the number in game low and the possibility for acquisition basically reduced to imm-intervention.  Manage to kill that sorc? Go ahead and claim your prize.

I agree with Quirk's sentiment otherwise.

consider this my request for examples of how it could be abused. A lot of people say "it's too much" or "It'd be abused." But I fail to see how.

I'm sure there IS a good reason, since the imms themselves have limited the "hide mdesc masks" but I'd like to know for my own comfort.

QuoteTo any who have mentioned the idea, disguise would suffer from the same as the mdesc masks, namely, the propensity for abuse

That depends entirely on how disguise was treated. If it's a branched skill that requires special equipment (instead of a one single piece of equipment and no skill), that would be less abuseable.

How?  By being limited to older chars or powergamers?
..moreover as CRW pointed out, it's magickers who stand the most to gain by clouding features, whereas this skill as earlier proposed would be (exclusively) available to rogue-types.

[edit] : Of course, you could tie it into craft code..

The idea of a "disguise" skill discussed previously on this board is a very different animal. It referred to a skill that altered the person's appearance, not concealed it. As discussed, it seemed a somewhat flawed idea to me. Given that Zalanthas' simple technologies would not provide any convincing way of changing facial shape or eye colour, recognition of the bewigged and made up person by someone who knew them should not be all that hard. Recognition of the same person with their face completely concealed by a mesh sandcloth wrap would be orders of magnitude more difficult, though of course anyone wearing such a wrap would instantly look suspicious.

And yes, I'm curious to know what the potential for abuse is, compared to the abuse of the mdescs of people which should be concealed by veil or facewrap and hood and which people somehow see in full anyway. Could I have some examples of potential abuse situations?

Quirk

NOTE: I do not play a suspisious character, nor a shady type. This does not affect my current character in any way, and would have only affected one of my characters over the years that I have been here.

I am firmly in support of desc hiding, keyword-changing, or otherwise concealing masks, hoods, etc. I do NOT see the point in not being able to hide yourself. There are arguments that doing so is unrealistic. It is not. The opposite, in fact, is true. It is unrealistic to NOT be able to do so.

The whole point of masking yourself IS to be able to get away with dirt. And I completely beleive that when you were a hood, mask, or what have you, it should change you keywords. THe Way should only be useable by name.

*applauds Venomz*

I agree, The7DeadlyVenomz.

Yep.  I'm with Venomz too.

Uber.

I, too, have seen how things have worked in another RPI that hides Mdescs when characters are hooded or masked.

The result? Very little discernable difference, except that it is more difficult to capture criminals and characters are forced to rely more on IC manners of identifying said criminal.

On the flip side, it is possible to identify a cloaked character with careful scrutiny - a 'study' command that has a percentage chance of succeeding and showing you their mdesc.

Relying on build, height, mannerisms, gender, and the clothing they wore is a lot more realistic than relying on the fact that it was a 'gangly man with eyes like emeralds'.

If the criminal is careful enough to change his clothes and perhaps affect a manner of speaking, why shouldn't they be more difficult to catch?

We need MORE avenues for well RP'd crime, not less. If you don't want to put your character at risk, then.. sorry, but some of the most enjoyable experiences I had with my first character were when she was being robbed or threatened in some way, and hell, that's a big part of what got me hooked. Conflict is good, it's what generates some fabulous RP. If your character is the type to worry about meeting a criminal, well, then take precautions any sane person ingame would - don't go places you're likely to be mugged, don't travel alone, etc, etc.

I do not, however, think there should only be certain types of objects that cover mdescs. That makes it too OOC, and I agree with the absurdity of people chasing after a scrap of sandcloth because it's a mask item.

I think all hoods, facewraps, and like items should obscure the mdesc - and there should be a percentage chance to be able to pick out their mdesc when you 'look' at them, perhaps tied in with scan and peek.

Good call Venomz.

I'm against the Way only being used by name because there are instances when a character will not give out their true names.  If there were a keywords and a nickname option in char-gen that would fix that.

But yes, I believe it would in reality be so easy to cover up your face and specific body form by a heavy cloak and mask.  Try picking out a guy in a trenchcoat, gloves, boots and a mask a second time when he's not in that garb.  Would there be any distinguishing features you could make out with close examination in a bright environment, let alone a stressful situation with the potential to also be dark, in a sandstorm, drunk, etc.  But right now you can just use look and in no uncertain terms find out who it is OOCly, even if you have the restraint to keep that from IC knowledge.

I've been holding off speaking untill I see a lot more pros and cons about this, but I did vote for no.

I'm passive right now actually, but I see one thing that might be used to consider things more....


Why don't -most- cloaks cover up mdesc? I can see why capes wouldn't, but when you have your hood up, you have it up for a reason....to keep sand out or hide yourself. So, wouldn't you be pulling your cloak in front of you as well? That would mean they get more coverage, and they would be less visible to see. Capes on the other hand could still do that, but IMO capes are smaller than cloaks, sometimes lacking a hood, but generally they don't have the extra size that a cloak would have.


Talking about masks: No. I don't think keywords or even descriptions should be covered up because of this. The reason I voted No on this poll was because I don't believe that someone could wear -just- a mask, and cover up that much description about them. Even if they just covered up the description, the keywords would still be avalible for when you try looking closer at their features. You look once, don't see something, but you think you know the person, so you check their eyes which are avalible through the slits. Then you realize you do know the person.

If there were code that if you had a mask, and a cloak on, then I might consider the whole mdesc cover up and keywords.

I think the topic has turned more towards all mdesc coverings though, so I commented more towards that.

Just my opinion. *shrug*

Xan, when it gives you the option of extra keywords, add in your nickname (Add into your history how you got that name)


Just so everyone knows:
cape [ kayp ]

1. loose outer garment: a sleeveless outer garment that is fastened at the neck and hangs loosely from the shoulders

2. coat part like cape: a piece of material like a cape that forms part of a coat or other garment


cloak [ klōk ]

1. clothes outer garment: a loose sleeveless outer garment that fastens at the neck

2. enshrouding object or force: something that covers or conceals things ( literary )

Yup, go 7DV

Sacac, Xan understands that, which is why they wrote

QuoteIf there were a keywords and a nickname option in char-gen that would fix that.

Currently there is -no- nickname option, so, you have to have nickname/alias as keywords, hence, if you could only contact someone by name then the nicknames in the keyword list would not work now would they?

Me, I'm all for a nickname list on chargen myself.
Somewhere in the docs, hell, might be chargen, it mentions that Zalanthans are careful about giving out true names since that holds power, always wondered why there was not a true name line and a nickname line in chargen myself.

How about allowing the player to compose a secondary, more generic description that would show instead of the usual one, which would be visible instead of the original one when a mask or something similar is used.

Quote from: "Mr.Camel"How about allowing the player to compose a secondary, more generic description that would show instead of the usual one, which would be visible instead of the original one when a mask or something similar is used.

..on the fly?  It wouldn't suffer the scrutiny of the immortals during the  approval process and you'd wind up with retarded mdescs.  
..in chargen?  How would you know what you're using to obscure your features in advance?

I'd like to see nicknames segregated from keyword list as well.  I would further like the ability to edit the nickname list (maybe 'add' only to the stack; if you could yank your keywords, would be too much room for abuse).

Insofar as contact on name/nick only, there are a handful of cons.  If you can see the person (say there's an elf in the room), where do you draw the line?  Do you allow the psionic phone call then?  Would you then extend to include by race..?  Moreover, if you're looking for a generic templar, soldier, etc..?

I was thinking about this earlier - it would require one IMM whose primary role would be to create "abbreviated descriptions" based on main descriptions. But this could be a good thing, because I've seen some doozies of main descriptions that were loaded with typos and -serious- grammar errors. That one IMM would be focusing on them could fix errors before passing them to the final approval phase of the application process.

The idea would be to have all characters come out of chargen with an abbreviated main description. This would have all the characteristics of the main desc, but omitting any details of the nose, mouth, or skin coloring/type. The eyes would still be visible because even wearing sunslits, a hood, and a veil - you can still see someone's eyes under -normal- Zalanthan lighting conditions. In other words - if you can see the figure, you can see his eyes. If it's dark/storming and you can't even see that there's a figure there, obviously you won't see his eyes either :)

An example - taken from my very first character (I was a brand spankin noob remember - so can it with the snickers about her creamy skin OKAY?) :

Main description:

Feathery brown hair frames the petite woman's face, falling in a tumble over her shoulders. Eyes the hue of rich, fertile soil gaze studiously over a narrow nose and full rosey lips. A short slender scar runs down the side of her chin, marring her otherwise flawless cream-toned skin. Though small in stature, she bears well-muscled yet curvaceous lines.

Abbreviated description:

Eyes the hue of rich, fertile soil gaze studiously over this petite woman's nose and mouth. Though small in stature, she bears well-muscled yet curvaceous lines.

When her hood's up, all you'd see is the second one. If she's wearing any garment that turns her into a "figure" rather than her usual sdesc, you'd see the second one.

And to prevent abuse by twinks, or misunderstood instructions by new players - it would be the IMM who creates the abbreviated description. Maybe not even a "real" IMM - maybe just someone who the Overlords trust enough to write abbreviated descriptions and pass the final app over to the rest of the staff for the usual approval process. They'd have no other function - because something like this would be very time consuming. A secondary and even a third IMM would be able to do the same thing if the primary one is unavailable and can't get these out within 12 hours (since we still want to maintain the 24 hour app process). Or have one IMM whose primary responsibility is to do this during the "American" day - and a storyteller from Europe to handle the night-player application descs.

I dunno - it's just a thought, and there's probably a more efficient way to go about it. But I think the idea has merit, and would certainly solve the issue of people looking at hooded and veiled and otherwise face-covered figures and magickally being able to tell the templar every freaking detail about the guy's face.

I really like the way that masks are dealt with now. If you have a character concept that needs a real mask for some reason, then just tell the immortals and they'll decide if you really need one. I don't see what the big deal is.

If you can't see how being able to conceal both main and short desc could be abused, then you arn't thinking creativly enough. Since everyone seems to be asking for a change, I would personally prefer the idea of a universally available scrutinize skill.

Personally, I don't much like Bestatte's idea...sorry. Partly because I disagree with how visable eyes are, and with a large hood drawn over your head and shadowing your face, then wrapping a gauzy cloth over too, they simply would not be.

I really think that what the game already gives you, for the most part is fine. When somebody has a cloak on, hood up, and face covered (another item) All you should see is the tall thin hooded figure or the short thin hooded figure, or whatever. When you look at them you should get the description of the cloak and the face covering along with any other visable equipment, thats all.

I've had maybe one char so far who may have wanted to hide his features, if played by somebody else, And I may have more in the future, gonna suck if the ability is not there.

Also, many times the need to do so is not planned, it is a sudden need, making e-mailing or wishing up a non-viable method to do so.

ok..
I don't see what a nickname part would add anything that adding it as an extra keyword wouldn't do.

but i agree with X-D, I don't like bestattes idea. because then they would have access to everyone's mdesc and it might spread to ooc knowing who is who when they are disguised.

They're saying you can use it as a keyword, but can't be contacted by that nickname, I believe.

But I haven't been following very much, since this thread is probably -not- going to change anything about masks, no matter how much we'd like it to.

Alright, nickname verses current keyword list. Lets see if I can clear some confusion.

Lazloth stated that once "masked/cloaked" IE Mdesc hidden and sdesc changed, that you should only be able to contact with the way by name, not keyword.

Somebody else stated that this would not work because of nicknames, which currently have to be in your keyword list. The rest of us are saying that is a good reason to have a seperate section in chargen for nickname/alias. So, that it would be possible for people to hide mdesc and sdesc and not be found out by twinks simply using the way to find out sdesc by using keywords.

Quote from: "sacac"ok..
I don't see what a nickname part would add anything that adding it as an extra keyword wouldn't do.

but i agree with X-D, I don't like bestattes idea. because then they would have access to everyone's mdesc and it might spread to ooc knowing who is who when they are disguised.

This has nothing to do with being disguised. It has to do with people wearing hoods and facewraps. Fixing -that- would eliminate any burning need for mdesc masks, no? Right now, everyone already HAS access to everyone's mdesc, even when they have their hoods up and faces covered with wraps. My idea would give a -different- description that removes the facial features, EXCEPT for the eyes, from anyone wearing those things.

Remove the eyes too, specialy the eyes. I'm absolutly 100% sure that if I put on my cloak (yes, I have a hooded cloak...SCA, go figure) And put the hood up IRL that nobody, and I mean NOBODY can tell my eye color under any lighting conditions from more then 2 feet away...hell, I'd bet on more then 1 foot away. And I do not care if your eyes are bright neon pink, if they do not emit their own light, -you- -can't- -tell-.


Anyway, I don't like the idea..mostly because it would be a lot of work for somebody AND increase the amount of time it takes to get an app approved, AND it is more simply solved by a little bit of code work, most of which is in place, but at least it is a one time deal then, not an ongoing job for somebody.

alright, thank you X-d
Thank you bestatte.

But I still don't like it.
Don't ask why, but I just have a bad feeling...

Oh well - I gave it a shot. I guess I don't really have any problem with these mdesc masks existing, OR not existing, or existing only with imm intervention.

I do agree with the idea that it's just WAY too easy for people to abuse (and often not even intentionally or consciously) the fact that we as players can see main descs while looking at people wearing hoods and facewraps or veils. And given that agreement, I figured there has to be -some- way to remedy that, because you just can't keep tabs on every single player just in case he happens to mess up and forget that he shouldn't be seeing the guy's tattoo on his nose.

This is on the fly here, and im only half serious...

Since we have tattoos IG, why not have an "eye" location for tattoos - and have "eye color" tattoos, and hair colour tattoos - You cannot see the colour of someones eyes if they are wearing sunslits, IMO, they are a thin slit.

Im in favor of mdesc hiding masks/hoods, combine it with the above idea, assess command, and look, you could get the basic  build, shape, eye colour, hair colour, etc.

Quote from: "Anarchy"This is on the fly here, and im only half serious...

Since we have tattoos IG, why not have an "eye" location for tattoos - and have "eye color" tattoos, and hair colour tattoos - You cannot see the colour of someones eyes if they are wearing sunslits, IMO, they are a thin slit.

Im in favor of mdesc hiding masks/hoods, combine it with the above idea, assess command, and look, you could get the basic  build, shape, eye colour, hair colour, etc.

I really like this.  Have sunslits wearable over the eyes to cover them up.  Sure it may not be as descriptive but thats the point, mdescs are for the pale blue eyes with flecks of gold, but details like eye color are the general stuff you want left general so that it cant be picked up specifically from syntax like player written descs.

What I like the best is the requirement for multiple items.  Heavy cloak and facewrap means no mdesc.  Sunslits means no eye color showing.  Eq to hide appropriate tattoos, change clothing so that isnt recognizable.  Makes the criminals work for it and take forethought but still allows some realism in this.  Thats my take on it at least.

You guys are on crack.

Quote from: "Lazloth"You guys are on crack.

Better than da shit in my forest.

Quote from: "sheep"If you can't see how being able to conceal both main and short desc could be abused, then you arn't thinking creativly enough.

Humorously enough, I don't think anyone is suggesting that it can't be abused. What I think that many are saying is that it is far more likely to be abused the way it is now than it would be if the hoods actually hid who you are.

Furthermore, let me say that I am in support of X-D's idea, of using three items to fully cover up with (THough I'd presonally say that some cloak (long ones) and a veil or face-wrap would work fine, so just two).

As a side idea, I have often pondered the following, and simply bear with me here. I've often thought that the desc process should be broken into four parts; Head, Body, Arms and hands, and legs and feet. If this occured, hooding and masking would become more effective and in this case, more elaborate.

Additionally, I don't care if you cannot contact someone because they gave you a false name. Kill the keyword BS. You should be able to have a nickname, addable in game, and the list should be stackable. THat would be fine.

But when I contact grey, I should get a lizard, or some NPC, or something scarier. I should not be able to contact you because you are the lone grey-eyed man in the game. That's insane, and that also makes it a ton harder to get away with robbing folks and getting away from hunters.

I don't care how tight the Way is, and how familiar the world is with it, they should not be able to contact the tall, hooded figure. That's stupid.

In the end, masking things should be not common, but not uncommon. Control that as you will. The Way should be name-dependant, as opposed to key-word dependant. If you want realism, then do this. If you do not want realism, then don't.

*shrug*

Anarchy, I already submitted that idea, for eyes and such. We'll see how it goes.

If I want realism, I'll go to the Sahara Desert, make a half-giant sized sword out of obsidian and start building a city called Allanak. Then, I'll change my name to Tektolnes and order mass genocides every odd year.

Well.. i'm new here, so I don't know how much my opinion counts but anywas..

I think that allowing masks and things to cover up your mdesc is a good idea cuz I can't really think up any good reason to not let it. Currently I feel the whole mask thingy is unrealistic cuz right now, if you're wandering around in the desert and some raider comes up to you wearing a veil, mask, and a heavy hooded cloak you'll still be able to see details like the scar he has on his cheek, while in real life you probably won't be able to see anything but how tall and how fat he is.

just my newbie opinion

Quote from: "Dirr"If I want realism, I'll go to the Sahara Desert, make a half-giant sized sword out of obsidian and start building a city called Allanak. Then, I'll change my name to Tektolnes and order mass genocides every odd year.

Hah. You're funny.

For the record, I had said two to three items.

Though I think two is plenty, large hooded cloak/duster and a face covering.

And I agree the way should not be keyword usable...probly already could already tell that since I'm for a nickname option being seperate from the keyword list.

About the whole keyword thing - I disagree.

I am horrible with names - great with faces though. I write everything down for my characters because of it - but if I forget, THEY wil also be horrible with names...and good with faces.

I recognize my neighbors - but I have no idea what their names are. If there was such a thing as the Way in real life, why would I need their name to find their minds? I know when they're around, I know what they look like, I know where they live, I know what kind of car they drive, I know that they like barbeque on saturdays with their kids...blah blah blah. I KNOW THESE PEOPLE. The Way shouldn't require knowing a person's name to contact them. It should just require knowing them.

For that reason - I would think "figure" should be eliminated from psionic contact. It's the use of "figure" that is so easy to abuse, not all those keywords that come with their sdesc. Their sdesc is -supposed to be- made up of their most recognizable features. Those things that people will notice immediately when they see them. Whether some players choose to adhere to this guideline is another matter entirely - and it would be great if that was a little better enforced.

You're a human who set your character's height as being in the top half of the suggested human height range - you assess -v figure and see he's the same size as you and a human - and yet, the next day the same guy walks in with his hood down and he's "the short green-haired man"? As far as I'm concerned that's cheating - or a rather significant mistake of a new player that the staff -should- address before approving the application.

If the "figure" goes around pking and running away, when he comes back with his hood down he won't be a suspect - because everyone is looking for someone the same height as me - and we're watching a "short man" walk into the room...no one will even bother checking him.

So - I'd like to see "figure" cease to be a keyword regarding the Way - because no, it doesn't make sense to be capable of "envisioning" the image of some anonymous figure. If you have no idea what they look like, OR you don't know their name - one or the other, not necessarily both, then you should not be able to use the contact skill to way them.

I am pretty surprised at this, actually.  I once obtained several mask items, and asked the account if it would be okay to distribute them, or if they wanted to keep them limited.  They were fine with me distributing them.  Is this an official announcement, about the masks?  Should we typo/bug mask items that we find in-game?

I don't think anyone can rationally say its difficult to conceal your features.  But, this is a game.

Giving people this capability is risky.  So...easy solution if you ask me.

Make the use of masks that cover up your main description karma dependent.  If you have sufficient karma, the staff trust you enough to be able to use description concealing items without abusing them.  Set the karma level at whatever is appropriate.

For those who don't have the karma, but strongly feel they should have access to this, requests could be made to the immortals just like any other unusual ability.


I'm not worried at all about experienced, responsible players having access to this.  Its just irresponsible or new players, who could potentially abuse this and make it a real annoyance to everyone in the game.

(Code wise, it could simply be the 'mask' command.  Usable with any mask object.  People without this ability, could simply wear it like normal and have it do what it does now, and cover up the s-desc)

I don't want to know whether my Guild boss or whatever has enough karma to play this or that.  I don't want to know that this templar has 1 karma or that the pickpocket over there actually has 6.  And how do you treat this ICly?

You have two elves that probably look the same.  They both wear the same cloaks and masks.  Why should one of them be with mdesc and another without?

Sorry, but I'm going to have to hope this one is shot down.  Karma should effect that guilds/subguilds you can play and absolutely nothing more.

Extremely unfair to the playerbase wisturbo.

Give me a good ic reason how one person would have a mask cover up their mdesc, but a newb with the same mask worn about their face would not have that perk.

Sounds a bit shitty to me. The issue isn't about responsibility. It's about roleplaying a scene correctly. If people abuse the mask, punish them like you would any other turd who twinks. Don't limit the feature to people who have karma, that is simply unfair to the newer players.

From Bakha, way back on page 1.

QuoteAn argument could be made for the ability to change or hide people's mdescs. I think, though, that this ability would be better served by making a workable disguise skill than having an item ingame that works for everyone and anyone that happens across it.

Now, Only quoted Bakha because his was the first post in this thread to mention the disguise skill.

Now, I've never argued for or against this skill idea, mostly because the last time it came up there were still many mask flagged items in game:)

But, the biggest problem I have with it is that fact that most people talk about it being a class based skill, and the classes they talk about giving it to need it the least.

What, yes, thats right, this is not a skill that assassin/burgler/pickpocket need. It is a skill magickers/mindbenders/warriors/rangers need, pretty much in that order. Simply because they are the ones working outside the cities, as raiders sometimes, or just helpless magickers trying to make pacts with demons. As a raider, being able to hide my description allows me to leave people alive. It helps allow helpless magickers to live long enough to become not helpless and scary wielders of mysterious powers (A good thing IMO) without having to sit in a cave ISO for 1 real life year practicing spells.

So, if this skill were to come into game, who would get it?

Bakha also brought up the mask flagged items were insconsistant, unrealistic in many cases and had become more valuable then steel and magick items. Yet the staff removed them from the game, and had limited them to begin with, well, they made them even more valuable by doing so, (sorta funny) and possible to get in an even more limited (and probly more unrealistic) fashion. Just like drugs in the states, make something harder to get, the more people want it and the higher the value.

Makes more sense to me to make the items easy to get and realistic, hence the two item mask flag. And if you want to limit the use, do so in an IC manner, Templars and commoners could take a disliking for masks/wraps/hoods inside buildings or whatever, laws could even be put into place, whatever. But at least it would be in game and something more to RP with and around, and would all around increase harshness in a manner most people prefer, with other pc's not pumping the desert full of uber npcs, or turfing skills.

So, I'm not a big fan of a disguise skill if it is to be limited to class or even sub. I actively dislike having to e-mail/wish up for a mask flag item, I mean, how does that go anyway, and who desides if you have a need for it? Or is it just that anybody can get an item but there are rules of use attatched? Must use in realistic fashion (IE cloak and hood up if wearing) Must e-mail mud if you die to have mask item recovered? Or, excuse me staff, my char is an oportunist raider, or would be, if he could disguise himself...yes, I know people are supposed to rp that they did not see the persons features, and maybe they will try, but fact is, they will still know, it will color their actions, and many others simply will not rp it at all, So, I need a mask flag item.

To me, pretty much every reason would be a good one.

QuoteWhat, yes, thats right, this is not a skill that assassin/burgler/pickpocket need. It is a skill magickers/mindbenders/warriors/rangers need, pretty much in that order.

This I disagree with, why wouldn't assasins/burglars/ pickpockets want to conceal their features as well, hiding isn't a guarantee that you won't be seen.
It seems to me that any criminal type would want to disguise themselves or conceal enough of their features.

Besides, pretty much any guild can be a criminal of sorts and it's really not that hard to put a mask over your face and pull a hood down. I say come up with some way to do it without restricing it to guilds...any guild can be a criminal and any jackass can cover their face up enough not to be recognized.

Right, all I was saying anyway, but even very recently when people talk of the disguise skill/command they state "rogue" classes, that I disagree with strongly. Maybe some should be better at it then others, but they should all have it. And not in the form of a subclass either, that would totally bite.

Seems like one of those things, that because there are so many mixed opinions about it, and someone has some arguement against any solution...it'll never happen.

Which is too bad really, though, you can still wish up for such capabilities.

There are other things in-game that are easily abuseable, and we are told that if we suspect abuse, to email the staff and let them look into it.

I see no reason this shouldn't apply to masks as well.

Masks are necessary in game.  There are simply some things that some characters are going to do that they will -not- want people knowing they do it.

Sure, there are stealth skills.  But look at how much people complain when you -use- them in the manner needed to be anywhere close to a mask.  You have to flat out abuse them, or close to it.  Well, that's not true, but that's the way it's normally done by those with more limited knowledge of how the -code- works.

Keep them in game.  Taking them out is, as always, dumping shit on those who are -not- the perfect, in-line citizen of a city.  The crim-code is hard enough to deal with as is.

One problem with mdesdc concealing items is the same one we have now with sdesc concealing items; it is difficult to deal with them in public.  Some people choose to keep their hoods up and their facewraps on in the city, or even in taverns.  Some other people find this suspicious, and give the hooded figures a little more attention than they would give people who lower their hoods.  Then the hooded people complain that this is unrealistic, it is dusty and sunny, so it isn't particularily remarkable to keep your hood up.   Even if few NPCs do it in your town, plenty of VNPCs might be doing it, so hassling people wearing hoods and facewraps is bad RP.  Items that conceal your sdesc and your mdesc would get even more attention, and generate more OOC conflict.  


I think that part of the difficulty with these items is that they are all-or-nothing.  In an encounter of less than 10 minutes it should be easy to disguise yourself, but if you interact with someone for hours they ought to start picking up some details because they have a good chance to get a good look at your eyes, notice the colour and texture of a stray lock of hair, to notice if you have facial hair behind that facewrap, and so on.  Pulling a nylon stocking over your head makes a good short-term disguise, but people can decode the distortion and recognise you if they spend enough time with you.  The mental state of the watcher also has a huge affect on the effectiveness of a disguise; if they are freaked out because they are being mugged the disguise will be more effective than if they are calmly peering at you trying to find distinguishing features.  The code can't deal with that, at least not nearly as well as a human referee could.  You could set something like there is a 2% chance half the mdesc will be revealed each time the person is looked at, but that would defeat the purpose of the masks without really addressing the problem.

I'm not necessarily against disguise items, I've had characters that would find them very useful, but it seems like there are a lot of potential problems with them that haven't been addressed in previous incarnations.


AC

AC:

>em tugs at ~black
The figure in a heavy fur cloak tugs at his black bandanna.

>Use mask
You attempt to use a black bandanna and a heavy fur cloak to disguise yourself.

>look me
This humanoid is taller than you and much thinner. A black bandanna covers the face and a heavy fur cloak the body. They wield a short grey dagger and a long black sword. Based solely on size and shape, it is probably a human or elf.
The masked person in a heavy fur cloak is in excellent condition.

The masked person in a heavy fur cloak is using:
<worn in left ear>       a tiny black skull
<worn in right ear>      a tiny black skull
<Worn on face>          a black bandanna
<slung over back>       a black greatsword
<worn about body>      a heavy fur cloak
<worn on torso>          an armored shirt of dark black scales
<right shoulder>          a huge tattooed dragon
<worn on legs>           a dark black sandcloth kilt
<worn on right ankle>    a silver-engraved black sheath
<worn on feet>           a pair of black leather sandals


>em looks about before ducking away into the shadows
The masked person in a heavy fur cloack looks about before ducking away into the shadows.

The description tells what they wear over their face and body, what they have in their hands, and bases what they might be upon height and weight. It hides age, sex, actual race, and so on. If the person speaks, then it betrays sex, but oh well. Now I think this is perfectly fine. So, put this in. *grin*

Additionally, kill any way to contact somebody by using the keywords in their cloaks and maskings. Only allow names and keywords such as the ones in their natural short-desc. I am all for just names, but I can understand why that would not be the first choice.

Honestly it all just seems like a lot of effort for little pay off. I think that people can choose what they should see and not see..

Example:

A while back I was with a certain elf who had a hood up and a face mask on.. So.. I looked at the elf..

Lets say he was the black skinned, blue-eyed elf.

Now said elf had everything covered but his hands.. and I needed to hunt down said elf.  So when I was asked what he looked like I said.

Well, I could not see his face at all, but I noticed that he wasn't wearing any gloves and he had this pitch black skin. He was also wearing a pair of pink boots, and an orange pair of pants. Answers to the name poopy pants.. And he held a slim rapier to my throat.

Now if he had no description I would not have been able to say that he had black skin.. I know that black skin isn't really a good example, in fact the skin color was a bit more odd than that.. But I am using black as the example. Thing is there are subtle things that you can say about a cloaked person or a person wearing a face mask.. and I think it is up to players what they would or would not see..

I mean if you have in your Description that you have wild stark white hair, some of that might peek out your hood. Or if you claim to have translucent white eyes, that might catch the light even under your cloak. I think it can go without saying that if you are covered from head to toe with a fcae wrap, hooded cloak, and the full nine.. yeah... People should not know you.. However, I really don't see the need to have it coded. All that is needed is common sense.

Maybe in character creation we should have a simple set of criteria (hair, skin, eye color) of very general criteria that would show up in assess -v.  The biggest problem with mdescs is that the rangy/lanky/wiry folk are all unique by mdesc, but in reality how would a character pick them out of a crowd?

This way assess -v will always give that general info, people can decide if their chars would notice it if the person was masked or not.  Thats my take at least.

I think we need to just deal with it the way it is now and try to make the best of things.

Venomz has it, and it really can't be hard to do code wise.

What, at most an additional item flag...or..hhhmm, no, easier, I'm betting hooded items already have a flag and script, change the mask flag to only work if the hood flag is active, then add the mask flag to most face coverings (not sunslits).

Simple, realistic and fun.

Just a side note...

I played a Kadian Merchant, one time.

Almost all the nobles asked me for a 'mask' item.
I would beg and beg for my immortal to load up one, and when it finally came, the noble was all 'happy' when I gave them the object.

But then they would put it on, and then they would frown, and say, "no, this isn't what I want."

Now, that happened a bunch of times.

They were upset IN GAME because it didn't hide their mdesc.  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

I'm -glad- that they were all removed.  At least, I hope they are.

I heard a rumour that there's still one in game.

That's because they were wanted for a specific purpose or function, and it didn't suit that purpose.

Quite simply, if we can't trust people to emote while they raid us, or we can't trust half-giants not to run in and subdue us, how the hell are we supposed to trust people to look at our masked character and decide that they don't see any of those features they just saw?

Quote from: "Armaddict"That's because they were wanted for a specific purpose or function, and it didn't suit that purpose.

Quite simply, if we can't trust people to emote while they raid us, or we can't trust half-giants not to run in and subdue us, how the hell are we supposed to trust people to look at our masked character and decide that they don't see any of those features they just saw?

be the change you want to see in the world.
(yes, i stole the quote)

I already did.

My character was recognized and killed.

what about having to code this?

emote studies ~maskedman before nodding to !sameman.

you get: The sacac studies the masked man before nodding to him.

You would have to do that a lot and recode a bunch *shrug* Just my penny

Quote from: "Armaddict"I already did.

My character was recognized and killed.

email the mud. Ask for an official response if it was bad RP or not, and expectations, and such. Let them handle those who you feel over stepped the   proper bounds, or let them tell you that what the other people did was fair.  

At least you'll know.


p.s. Zalanthas is harsh. You never know who's a mindmender in secret who can see right through your mask and heavy cloak.

While we are on it..
I'm sorry for buying my stolen items from that one elf I OOC knew who took it and just offered to buy them back if they got them from someother elf :(

On the topic though.. Rp'ing out not knowing who did what can be fun.. so try it.
you know the green-eyed uber-raider robbed you?
And you know that lady is an uber-fancy pants?
Cool.. so what?

Quote from: "Agent_137"Zalanthas is harsh. You never know who's a mindmender in secret who can see right through your mask and heavy cloak.

Yes, well, right now, apparently everyone is.

Yes there are things that you could get from the main desc that you would be able to see if masked, but I have to agree that there should be a way to mask your mdesc, because there is much more potential for abuse that way.  Right now there is no way raid, cast magick, or other activities as long as someone can just get in a look at you, they can recognize you 100% of the time.  Most mugging victims have a hard time recognizing an unmasked mugger out of a line up, due to the stress, panic involved.  Right now as a raider or magicker, your only option to prevent recognition is to kill whoever sees you.  I think the game could better be advanced by allowing your victims to escape without worring about them fingering you out of a crowd later.  If there was a way to pass only a few generic features etc. Then I would be in favor of that.  Perhaps the ass -v could give more infomation, Like right now it will only say if they are shorter, heaver etc.  Maybe you should be able to say, he looks like he is between 70 and 75 inches tall and 7 or 8 ten-stone.  That would give you some more info, in addition to perhaps his race and sex.  Or maybe there being a 10% chance of your mdesc begin seen when looking at a masked, hooded figure.  That would mean that if someone looked at you, you wouldn't know if they could recognise you later, but they probably wouldn't.

It has been pointed out that if the masks covered mdescs, that we would have masked mages and raiders running around everywhere in the wastes.  I, for one, think this is a good thing.  Its a lot more fun to encounter raider and magickers in the wild, than make the trip from Tuluk to allanak, either without incident, or running into an NPC gith or Raptor.

Think most things have already been said on this matter. I'd definitely like to see this come in whereby wearing a fair-sized hooded cloak / duster with an object the covers your entire face (not just a portion of it) results in your character being masked and their mdesc hidden. I like the way Venomz proposed how this would work back on pg.6 of this thread. Also, I didn't even know that you could use the Way to contact the "tall figure in a dark hooded cloak" or whatever - this makes no sense to me and I think it should be done away with.

Permitting true masking opens up all sorts of possibilities for improved thief / raider / rogue magicker RP. Players won't have to kill just to avoid being recognised. "Your money or your life!" could actually be successfully employed by muggers or raiders. Players would have to rely on more realistic details such as what clothes they wore, weapons they used, tattoos, how they spoke, mannerisms, etc. Yes we'll be dependent on raiders actually supplying these emotes but I'd far prefer that to having the 100% recognition that occurs way too often at the moment which is far more unbalancing I feel. A study skill, like Delirium mentioned, could also be implemented but I think it should take quite a while to be successful at if its going to unlock a mdesc and it probably should be fairly obvious that you're doing it too as you'd have to look at them quite intensely I'd imagine.

I think that wearing a combination of items that mask your mdesc should be illegal within the cities as neither the militia nor the templarate would appreciate such an action. Walk, masked, into a room with soldiers and there should be a reasonable potential for some trouble for your character. Wearing a hood or a veil if its sunny or storming should be enough when in a city and something like this would mean that crimes in a city would have to be fairly well-planned if they're not in some out of the way place.

I'd love to see this in the game and think the pros far outweigh the cons. There's nothing especially wrong not being able to see the mdesc of people who've made a good effort to not be recognisable - its simply realistic. At the moment the Imms have left it up to the players what they want to see and what they don't want to see. I think that most players would agree that we shouldn't really remember details about a well-covered raider / thief / magicker yet the temptation seems to be too much for many - Arm is competitive and some people will take this OOC knowledge and use it to their advantage. Lets do away with it and make everybody play off the same level.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!   :x

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"

Quote from: "Agent_137"Zalanthas is harsh. You never know who's a mindmender in secret who can see right through your mask and heavy cloak.

Yes, well, right now, apparently everyone is.

ahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Fucking uber, I salute Dedlee.

What is to stop a "Shit covered bynner" Talking guy from speaking perfent anal noble for a raid?

If, ~if~ done right then it would be cool. But i doubt many would play it right so... yea..

Quote from: "sacac"What is to stop a "Shit covered bynner" Talking guy from speaking perfent anal noble for a raid?

If, ~if~ done right then it would be cool. But i doubt many would play it right so... yea..

Huh?

Quote from: "Forest Junkie"

Quote from: "sacac"What is to stop a "Shit covered bynner" Talking guy from speaking perfent anal noble for a raid?

If, ~if~ done right then it would be cool. But i doubt many would play it right so... yea..

Huh?

it was more related to another thread than this one, -but- nonetheless, it would be a neat way to throw people off the raiders scent if he changed the way his talk, ASSUMING the victims didn't abuse seeing his mdesc.

In a perfect world everyone would shit out gold, too.

Let's be real, that sure ain't happenin'. Every pc has 100% memory retention rate, since they never forget a face, and can somehow pinpoint a masked, hooded figure out of a crowd of possible hundreds.

Bleeber.

Just as an Example, on the other RPI mud that seems popular, 'everyones' cloak will hide thier mdesc when raised.

Yes Everyones.

There is a study skill, and with that you can stare at a person, looking intently into thier hood and at them to make out mdesc features.

I love it, and it works well.

I know what your talking about, it's one feature of that mud that I do like...there a several others that I don't...but that is a very nice one.

A glorious solution:

Using the same code that scrambles languages, scramble main descriptions when masks are used.

The "language" skill used to unscramble the descriptions, would be peek.  If you have a very high peek skill, even though someone is wearing a disguise, you'll be able to read their main description fairly well to get identifying features out of it.  If you lack the peek skill, your character's perception is not keen enough in this case to visually pick out identifying features beyond whats seen through Assess -v, so all you'll see is a scrambled mess.

How's that for a solution?

Shitty.  You again tip the hand to rogues.

Once again, things are tipping towards rogues, eh?

I don't know how often you actually -play- someone on the other side of the law, but things are so heavily leaned against them, it's not even funny.  I'm not saying that this is bad, considering some circumstances, but just the crimcode and it's efficiency is too brutal.  Right now, you can get past the crimcode if you're good.

But then, the players are the ones who bring you down.  One sees your short description, and holy shit, that describes -only- you in this city of five hundred thousand or whatever.  Asking for a way for resourceful characters, -not- just rogues, to overcome the recognition that comes to easily, is not too much to ask, in my own opinion.

As for the peek recognition...who knows?  It's a reason to hire a few shadiers types to work for you.  Less independent rogues means less people going around terrorizing mindlessly, as people seem to think -all- rogues do.

Make scan and peek the language skills, perhaps.

It's a very nice suggestion, though it probably needs some thought to make it workable.

Good suggestion, don't like that it takes the peek skill.

As to playing on the other side of the law, bullshit, just like any guild it is tough in the beginning and if you don't use your head, after a while it becomes extremly easy.

I don't care what skill its based on.  Peek, scan, straight wisdom stat, cooking...whatever...I'd like to hear people's opinions on the solution.

I dont like it to be based on a skill as that would mean certain classes/subclasses would never fail at it after a certain point while others would always be stuck in a rut.  I like the idea of a study command that should have a decent delay and be fully visible so that the raider could retaliate if they wish.  Have study descramble some of the mdesc, enough to give good details if the person takes time to decipher it.

But I like the ideas  :D

Scrambling only works if you trust other players, and the point of scrambling is that you don't trust other players.  

Quote from: "Xan"I dont like it to be based on a skill as that would mean certain classes/subclasses would never fail at it after a certain point while others would always be stuck in a rut.  I like the idea of a study command that should have a decent delay and be fully visible so that the raider could retaliate if they wish.  Have study descramble some of the mdesc, enough to give good details if the person takes time to decipher it.

Same paragraph with ROT 13:

V qbag yvxr vg gb or onfrq ba n fxvyy nf gung jbhyq zrna regnva ynffrf/fhopynffrf
jbhyq arire snvy ng vg nsgre n pregnva cbvag juvyr bguref jbhyq nyjnlf or fghpx va n ehg. V yvxr gur vqrn bs n fghql pbzznaq gung fubhyq unir n qrprag qrynl naq or shyyl ivfvoyr fb gung gur envqre pbhyq ergnyvngr vs gurl jvfu. Unir fghql qrfpenzoyr fbzr bs gur zqrfp, abhtu gb tvir tbbq qrgnvyf vs gur crefba gnxrf gvzr gb qrpvcure vg.

The hoards of players that are (apparently) cutting and pasting mdescs so that they can perfectly identify people later can still do that, and with a simple comparison have a pretty good chance of identifying a scrambled paragraph based on punctuation and how long the words and spaces are.


I don't know how the desc snippers manage it though.  I often have trouble identifying other characters that have gone to the trouble to tell me their names, and I run into other PCs that have forgotten my PCs names as well.  I guess not every PC has 100% memory retention after all.  Keeping a file of mdescs so that you can identify everyone you've ever seen seems like an awful lot of work for a very small gain.  But that's just me.


AC

I'm bad.. :)
I don't keep anyone's sdesc until they introduce themselves a second time :P

I love wizturbo's suggestion.

I like the idea, however, to stop from the cutting
and pasting like AC said, why not have all the
masks give the same generic scrambled
mdesc?

Quote from: "Krath"I like the idea, however, to stop from the cutting
and pasting like AC said, why not have all the
masks give the same generic scrambled
mdesc?

Or change your mdesc to what the cloak looks like, or something.

Both would defeat the purpose of the original suggestion..

And while I think contacting 'figure' is pretty cheapo, I do have a suggestion for those men of mystery that want to keep their minds intact: barrier.

It exists for a reason, yes?

Someone else had earlier said that it would be tipping things in the rogue's favor. Wrong, there are too many things tipped against them, IC some are fine...but there are others such as this subject which are unfairly OOCly against them.

Another is people who decide because they felt a hand in their pocket and you were the only pc on a busy street full of vnpcs up the wazzoo it MUST be YOU out of ALL those people.
Then the stupid OOC-info-abusing, TWINK newbie goes around telling every other pc in the known world that they caught you with your hand in their pocket...when in FACT...IC'ly they did not.
This just happened to my pc last night and I'm still pissed as hell about it, it could potentially have ruined everything for my pc when things were going well up until now. :evil:

Some people should've been abortions.

Abortion is not something to joke about.
There is nothing wrong with a "twink newbie" who decides to accuse you of trying to steal from him; it's no different than a seasoned player who decides to accuse you of stealing just for kicks.
I've played nothing but rougish type characters since I first started this game, and I can honestly say that it isn't very difficult to be sucessful. If you're having problems, then try harder. Don't blame it on the flaws of the code.

There is most definitely something wrong with it when they are only accusing you because you happen to be the only pc on a crowded street with them...they are IGNORING VNPCS...which is terrible RP.
They are using the OOC info that you are the only one codedly who could've stolen from them...that's ABUSING OOC KNOWLEDGE.

People IRL get accused of crimes they didn't commit all the time. Some of these crimes happen during the day with plenty of people all around. If someone's wallet gets stolen, that person is going to suspect someone around him. IG, the description of the room doesn't go into detail as to where the VNPCs are. It could be that you were the only person, NPC or not, that was around him.

People use OOC knowledge for benefits IG all the time. If you go exploring with one character and find out that there's an insta-death bottomless pit somewhere, you're probably not going to take another character back to that hole.

QuotePeople use OOC knowledge for benefits IG all the time.

Doesn't make it right, in fact it goes against the rules of the game AFAIK.

The fact of the matter is, he could've accused anyone of the vnpcs on the street when he felt a hand in his pocket, but he chose to accuse my pc because OOC he knew it had to have been me....why?
To make use of the OOC info and get revenge ICly. It's the only reason for doing it.
It's not like he had no OOC info to go on when he made the accusation, that's something different entirely, not at all the same thing.
It wasn't just rp that his pc decided to accuse me...it was the use of OOC info.
Very shitty any way you cut it.

It's akin to going and getting someone else's corpse because they told you the player OOC it was there, even though your pc didn't just find it on their own.

Players are going to learn from their mistakes. Asking them to discard basic survival knowledge they recieved from playing past characters is ridiculous. Your first character may go wandering out of the city with no water and die. Your second character is going to bring water. Where do you think the desire to bring water came from?

Quote from: "Grumpy Sneak"
It's akin to going and getting someone else's corpse because they told you the player OOC it was there, even though your pc didn't just find it on their own.

There is no way you can RP this in any situation, and is very much inappropriate.

There may be a whole room of VNPCs there, but there are only going to be two or three who are right next to that person's character. If you get accused then just take it as bad luck and keep going.

Sorry, but the room desc is loaded with vnpcs likely there were many more around them than just two or three. It's not bad luck, not when they used the OOC knowledge to accuse my pc, if you can't understand that Sheep, then you still have as much to learn as the one who did it.

It's the same thing as me taking the knowledge that someone is a magicker and using it with another pc, it's knowledge that the pc didn't have but knowledge that I had.

It's flat out cheating, if you cannot see it...then it makes me wonder about how much you can be trusted not to. :roll:

Dear Grumpy Sneak:

No, I'm not the one who accused your character of stealing anything. But I'll mention a few things...call it a hypothetical situation and a VERY REAL possibility.

Once upon a time I'm in the Gaj and Gladiator biker bar. I got my sids in my pocket and my dagger on my belt, and my pack closed, all's well. This elf walks in - got his hood up, but I took a peek just as he was sitting down at the bar not far from me. Green eyes - not hard to see in that light, it's full daylight and the sun's shining into the building. Wearing red sandcloth doilies on his hips - and what's that? A carved bow poking out from behind his gold-threaded pack..not as tall as some of the elves I've seen before - but just as skinny. Oh and he's got mud on his boots.

I go back to drinking - ignoring pretty much everything around me. I go to take out some coins for another jug-o-crap, but the coins are missing. Well damn if that sneaky elf didn't reach into my pockets when I was ignoring him...damn it all to hell! So I accuse him to the templars, and he dies a very unpleasant death...

Turns out - the REAL thief was much smarter than this elf, and set that skinny boy up to take the fall. The real thief hid in the shadows and nabbed my goods, and no one ever suspected a thing.

Why did I accuse the elf? 1) he's an elf. Of COURSE he's a thief. Everyone knows that. 2) He saw me looking at him - he probably wants to kill me now, I should expect him to at LEAST steal from me. 3) He sat down at the bar not far from where I was sitting and probably could've reached my pockets with them long skinny arms of his. 4) It doesn't really matter that he wasn't the thief. All elves are thieves, all elves are scum and if my false accusation results in one less elf, so much the better.

In other words - sucks to be the elf - and it has nothing to do with abusing OOC info.

QuotePlayers are going to learn from their mistakes. Asking them to discard basic survival knowledge they recieved from playing past characters is ridiculous. Your first character may go wandering out of the city with no water and die. Your second character is going to bring water. Where do you think the desire to bring water came from?

Learning to play realistically.

Most everyone who would leave the city in a desert environment would know to bring water with them. This arguement is another thing entirely, nothing like what we're talking about and I'm surprised you'd even consider this the same thing.

Whoever said I was an elf Bestatte? Odd, I don't recall ever saying that.

What? Because he was the only pc elf in the tavern then he was the only one in the Gaj? Sorry, sounds like the use of OOC knowledge to me. Your using the knowledge that he was the only pc elf in the tavern to accuse.

Quote
Learning to play realistically.

Most everyone who would leave the city in a desert environment would know to bring water with them. This arguement is another thing entirely, nothing like what we're talking about and I'm surprised you'd even consider this the same thing.

I'm sure there are new players who have gone out into the desert without some source of water, gotten lost, and died. If you personally don't like that example, then here's one that's more realist. I had a character that wore expensive things into the rinth. With subsequent characters I've learned not to do that. I don't consider it cheating, but I did utilize IC game information that I obtained through a previous character.

Learning to play realistically comes from obtaining certain IC information through many PCs. That information is then used in all future PCs unless a future PC is being RPed in a way that would force the disuse of some part of previously attainted IC information. Since I was discussing the use of OOC information, I don't see how you can not see how my example pertained to the discussion.

This discussion has caused this thread to be sidetracked. If anyone would like to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me.

QuoteI had a character that wore expensive things into the rinth. With subsequent characters I've learned not to do that. I don't consider it cheating, but I did utilize IC game information that I obtained through a previous character.

That information is in the docs somewhere about the 'rinth, again another meaningless and dissimilar example.

Quote from: "Grumpy Sneak"Whoever said I was an elf Bestatte? Odd, I don't recall ever saying that.

What? Because he was the only pc elf in the tavern then he was the only one in the Gaj? Sorry, sounds like the use of OOC knowledge to me. Your using the knowledge that he was the only pc elf in the tavern to accuse.

Odd, I don't recall ever saying that either. In fact I was pretty specific - it was a hypothetical situation. I didn't KNOW he was the only PC in the tavern, elf or otherwise. My point - since you missed it entirely - is that there are grumpy thieves even sneakier than you are, who MIGHT have ALSO been there. And in fact sometimes there are even NPC sneaks who are sneakier than you are. But that one elf - that was the one my character happened to notice. And that was the one my character accused. It has nothing to do with OOC info - I had NO IDEA if there were other PCs in the tavern, because hidden characters are, ya know, hidden.

Right, but I know for a fact, this wasn't the case. My pc was the one who attempted to steal but it wasn't a critical failure Which means all he got was a message about "someone" having their hand in his pocket.
You get me?
He picked me as the only pc there in a place that's supposed to be filled with vnpcs...I mean LOTS of vnpcs.
The only reason for doing it would be the use of the OOC knowledge.
If it hadn't been me at all then I wouldn't be upset by it because it would be IC.

Do you see where I'm coming from now?

Quote from: "Anonymous"That information is in the docs somewhere about the 'rinth, again another meaningless and dissimilar example.

What exactly are these examples dissimilar to? Is there a list of examples somewhere I don't know about? I feel that my examples have sufficiently clarified my point. Until a significant number of people have made it clear that they don't understand what I said, I won't bother explaining it further.

As it works on the other RPI mud a char with the skill can use it, and in fact they don't get a scrambled message, but they will either get the entire desc, or nothing at all depending on thier ability.

The other person gets the echo

The man is staring at you

The only other way would be a completely broken down description system
where in char creation you would answer like this.

The facial desk: (blah blah)
The torso: (blah blach)
Legs: (blah blah)
Arms: (blah blah)


Then if you have a cloak on, torso is hidden, but facial can still be seen with look. If you have a longcloak on now the leg desc is hidden too.
Wearing a poncho? Now there is no arm desc. Put a veil on, now you are covered and none of your desc shows through.

Your example are about rp information that people should have to play those roles realistically and they are available for use.

The fact that my character is the only player-controlled character in the room when you find "someone" with their hand in your pocket, out of the many that ICLY are supposed to be just as real to your pc, is OOC information that you are NOT supposed to use.

I really don't see what so hard about that concept to grasp.

Anyway, I'm done arguing about it...-I- will at least continue to play ICly and let what they did ICly bring about the consequences.

Dakkon, nice idea.. but it would really skrew up some more of my intricately detailed pc's.
It would disrupt the flow of the desc in my opinion.

Just one thing:

Me, as a rogue player, I say this:   If you don't want to get caught, don't do it.  People can and will figure out you're the one who stole from you.  I used to blame it on OOC abuse as well, but there are very viable IC ways to figure it out.  Blame on VNPC's?  They're the ones who don't grab much attention.  That's the fella who isn't doing shit.  PC's are the ones you -notice-.  The ones you look at and think, "Hey, he might have taken my shit."  Don't commit a crime, stick around to get caught, and complain about it.  Rogues have to be smart about their shit, not preachy about what went wrong.

I will, however, say this.  Rogues have to know their shit, because it is -not- easy to be a rogue, as someone stated earlier.  Yes, you can be very successful.  Yes, you can make a lot of money.  Fairly easily, if you're smart and have a certain skillset.  The hard part is escaping notice while you make this money, otherwise people will want you dead.  Even if you join a group for safety, it just takes one -little- fuck up to end it all.  Either one little fuck up, or one little notion of trust in the integrity of the game for the other player in a situation that they don't fulfill.

Quote from: "sacac"Dakkon, nice idea.. but it would really skrew up some more of my intricately detailed pc's.
It would disrupt the flow of the desc in my opinion.

Same here.

As for the whole thief discussion, its off topic and maybe should have its own thread.  My stance is that your character was clearly near his if you did the stealing, so he wouldnt be looking at the -whole- room but the dozen or so people right around him.  IMO one failed steal and i'd ignore it, more than one and i'd definitely point the blame finger, just because if someone keeps near you and you keep feeling hands in yer shit, well im pointing fingers.

It doesn't take a lot to impair your peripheral vision.  Any hood deep enough to really obscure your features would, really.  Masks would really do it.  Should people with their hoods up take penalties to scan?

A hood heavy enough to keep out biting sandstorms is probably heavy enough to muffle sound.  Should people with hoods up take a penalty to listen?

Opacity on a veil or facewrap goes both ways, so if it's covering your eyes and is sufficiently opaque to obscure what people can see of your features, it's also opaque enough to impair your vision.

I could probably think of a few others, but I'm too lazy to bother.  I'm fairly content to trust my fellow players to decide for themselves what they should or shouldn't see of me, and really, I don't much care if there are mdesc concealing items or not.  I can see why people want them, but "want" doesn't necessarily equate to "should have."

Another thing to consider is that sdescs and mdescs are all we really have, in game, to identify someone, but those only cover visual cues.  There are also audio cues.  Watching a Verizon commercial some time ago, I suddenly thought, "Hey, I know that voice.  That's James Earl Jones."  There are also olfactory cues.  My previous job, I knew exactly when the girl that sat across the cubicle from mine had come in, because she wore a very distinctive perfume.  Since we can't really make use of these kinds of cues in game, we're forced into using what we do have, which are visual text cues.  Therefore, in my opinion, you should never be able to completely alter the text that everyone relies on to identify you in game (excluding magickal means, of course.)

Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"

It doesn't take a lot to impair your peripheral vision.  Any hood deep enough to really obscure your features would, really.  Masks would really do it.  Should people with their hoods up take penalties to scan?

Are you sure there isn't already?  :-)

Quote from: "wizturbo"

Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"

It doesn't take a lot to impair your peripheral vision.  Any hood deep enough to really obscure your features would, really.  Masks would really do it.  Should people with their hoods up take penalties to scan?

Are you sure there isn't already?  :-)

No clue if it exists or not :-)  But if it doesn't, maybe it should...