Armageddon General Discussion Board

I'd like to introduce a couple of concepts here for use in the now long-running small clans vs Houses debate, and map out some of the reasons behind my current dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs.

Two definitions of phrases I'll be using later.

Petty goals RP.

I define "petty goals" RP as RP that arises out of the desire of an individual to achieve some end chiefly benefiting that individual as opposed to any organisation they represent, whether that individual be a noble or a pauper. A high-ranking Kadian merchant having an item of jewellery stolen for personal use would fit into this category; a starving elf pulling a scam to fill his belly and quench his thirst would fit likewise; an struggle between two House guards for the favour of a noble and promotion would be a third example.

Clan goals RP.

I define "clan goals" RP for the purposes of this discussion as RP that arises out of an organisation as a whole seeking to achieve some goal, or from a PC representative of that organisation seeking to further that organisation's interests. A Merchant House opening an outpost in a hitherto untouched territory or expanding their facilities in a certain area would fit into this category, as would competition for contracts between mercenary outfits, negotations and skirmishes between tribes for hunting rights, and many more things.

Following so far? Good. Here comes my first assertion:

a) Clan goals RP, in the sense I have just defined, is all but dead on Armageddon in most imm-run clans. Where it exists it is rarely directed by PCs. Most RP seen in Houses is petty goals RP.

That is, I think, a fairly bold claim, and may require some explanation. I do not count "spying" as clan goals RP in its proper sense, as spying is merely the gathering of data to make informed decisions with. I count only goals that are designed to bring clear benefit to the organisation as a whole rather than solely one individual in power.

b) Most Houses have no clear path to improve their position. Either they already hold a trade monopoly or they are constrained by the balance of other forces in their city too great for PCs to have significant control over.

This breeds a corollary:

b) ii) Most PC leaders in such Houses are hence extremely limited in what clan goals they can reasonably set. Many on realising this are frustrated. Others are content to indulge in petty goals RP, and accept that they will not have a large impact on the House they are part of.

I would strongly argue that the current situation with the Houses leads to the neglect of clan goals RP. Why is this a bad thing? Well, there is no real reason to have the Houses if they do not provide any extra opportunities for RP. Petty goals RP is perfectly attainable for any independent, and more opportunities are available for such RP when no steady income is assured; all that steady income does is reduce the harshness of Zalanthas. Indeed, with nothing but independents (something I am *not* suggesting should ever be the case) small groups would form naturally and provide a measure of clan goals RP not found in the current Houses.

c) Little or no competition exists between imm-run clans. Each large clan maintains some sort of monopoly, and the only resource that remains to squabble over is people.

There is a very little room for competition between the Houses. Arguably Kurac could have something of a conflict with Salarr or Kadius over what precisely constitutes "desert gear", but if such confrontations go on, they go on at such a secretive level as to be invisible to even the lower-ranked members of those Houses. Kurac, incidentally, appears to me to achieve clan goals oriented RP on a level unmatched by the other Houses, and I'd like to mention it as something of an exception; I'd suggest that its enduring appeal to players has a lot to do with this.

d) House trade monopolies, misunderstood by players, result in the wiping out of many a promising player-run clan, as well as reducing the pool of potential recruits for such clans by luring away craftsmen with the promise of a steady job and regular meals.

I'd single out Salarr and Kadius particularly as clans in a position to have a highly negative impact on emerging player-run organisations. I do not blame the players in such clans particularly, although they often hunt down PC groupings of a size far smaller than many NPC concerns; without having the authority to set goals to expand the clan's monopoly, or having goals set for them from above, likely they latch gladly onto something that seems well within their purview - maintaining their monopoly - and rejoice in the brief but exciting RP that results from the might of their House coming down on the upstarts.

e) Such House conflicts as do exist rarely touch the rank and file of PCs working for the organisation beyond perhaps making them aware of the feud.

What do all those House guards do all day? Certainly they very seldom have much to do with furthering the needs of the House, and only occasionally even get to help with the petty RP goals of their noble.

f) Elves, half-elves and lower-class humans are left out by the current emphasis on high-class social circles.

I chucked this one in just for good measure, but I think it's still relevant. Again, I except Kurac from this charge. Employment at the lowest level of the Merchant Houses is open to them, but little else; a group of elves will find few poor or desperate enough to deal with them, because of the number of higher-class PCs.

It's been a long post, and I don't want to muddy the waters by proposing such solutions as I've been considering just yet; however I would like to see what people feel about these assertions, whether they consider them truthful or not, and would like to hear what statements others might have to make in turn. This isn't really meant as a thread for suggesting solutions; it's a thread for defining the problem so we're all agreed on what it is before we come up with any ideas.

As a last point, I'd like to contrast this little quote, showing how far things have changed in the last few years - would anyone consider it still to be the case?

Quote from: "help armageddon"6) Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
barring the ludicrous. If your character sets up a mercenary company,
he/she may one day lead an army of loyal soldiers on an assault of one
of the great city-states. As a magicker your character may one day become
a fabled elemental being. Burglars may reach levels of affluence beyond
imagination, and merchants may likewise become so rich as to own their
own merchant house and dominate the world's economy. The limits are
truly whatever you can imagine occurring.

Quirk

Generally, PC merchant family members, nobles, and templars are the lowest-ranking people in their tier of leadership. I think it has to be this way, at least to start, otherwise you run the risk of power-hungry newbies to these roles taking advantage of any greater liberties.

However, it would be cool if more of these people were allowed to progress further and accomplish more.  It does happen, but it doesn't happen automatically. Sometimes they fail to jump through hoops for their superiors.  Or sometimes they anger their superiors by taking on powers which don't belong to them.  And sometimes it's just hard to convince the ooc powers-that-be that it is a good, or necessary, goal for them to set.

Quote from: "Quirk"Clan goals RP, in the sense I have just defined, is all but dead on Armageddon in most imm-run clans. Where it exists it is rarely directed by PCs. Most RP seen in Houses is petty goals RP.

I fully agree.  Having recently had experiences with clans dealing in military, mercantile, espionage, and political endeavors, I came to realise that there are simply no goals.  Every task I was ever given was a short term one - gathering materials, guarding a noble, training day in day out, eavesdrop on conversations, etc.  To put it bluntly...dull.

Quote from: "Quirk"Most Houses have no clear path to improve their position. Either they already hold a trade monopoly or they are constrained by the balance of other forces in their city too great for PCs to have significant control over.

Already I want to jump in and provide my solutions for these things, but again I agree.  Does Salarr or Kadius have any motivations at all these days?  No.  The dealings with the commoners are just sidenotes in comparison to the huge deals they strike with the noble houses, which bring in 85-95% of their income.  They are rich, and by virtue of being rich, they will continue to become rich.  It is a vicious circle that means a lack of goals, because they have already achieved the desired goal.  To become rich.

Quote from: "Quirk"Little or no competition exists between imm-run clans. Each large clan maintains some sort of monopoly, and the only resource that remains to squabble over is people.

This has been said many times.  For a harsh world, there is little open hatred between competing clans.  When you sit down in the trader's or the sanc, and watch a pair of nobles from oposing houses talk, it is always very cordial and they even seem to like one another, even if that is not the case behind closed doors.  That is one aspect of competition, however, and there are no doubt many others.  There are so many factors that go into this point: the uberness of NPCs (meaning you can't walk into your competitor's store and crack some skulls); the constant deaths of PCs (who wants to deal in the comodity of people when they keep disappearing?)...and others.  This whole thing ties back into the lack of conflict that exists -- there -has- to be more.  Conflict is the essence of intrigue in this game, and without it, the game is boring.

Quote from: "Quirk"House trade monopolies, misunderstood by players, result in the wiping out of many a promising player-run clan, as well as reducing the pool of potential recruits for such clans by luring away craftsmen with the promise of a steady job and regular meals.

The houses do have some effect on this, though I don't think it is the only reason why smaller player-run groups (i'm hesitant to call them clans yet) tend to disappear.  For one, players are greedy, and if they notice that a merchant has been going out alone to gather resources, you better believe there's going to be a dead merchant corpse in the wilderness very soon.  Another reason is groups need a base..somewhere they can safely store goods.  Being an independent, I know that its a pain in the ass to have to carry ever posession you own on your person.  Being part of a group can only compound this, because I don't think the resources brought in within a group increase proportionally to the number of members.

Quote from: "Quirk"Such House conflicts as do exist rarely touch the rank and file of PCs working for the organisation beyond perhaps making them aware of the feud.

Yep.  The one exception I'd say to this statement is the Byn, as the "leaders" of the clan (i.e. the sergeants), have very strong ties to their underlings, and as such, they tend to discuss their problems.  Then again, the Byn is a very simplistic organisation.

I'd like to add a final thought to all of this.  Have you ever retired a noble or house merchant or anything of that sort?  I know it happens frequently, and that in itself is a -strong- indicator that there is a severe problem.  If things were interesting, and PCs had longterm goals, perhaps independent of IMM influence, people would not retire.  At least until their goal is accomplished.

Quote from: "uberjazz"I'd like to add a final thought to all of this. Have you ever retired a noble or house merchant or anything of that sort? I know it happens frequently, and that in itself is a -strong- indicator that there is a severe problem. If things were interesting, and PCs had longterm goals, perhaps independent of IMM influence, people would not retire. At least until their goal is accomplished.

I tried making a post about this but it didn't seem to receive the attention I had hoped it would.  This above quote is the point I was trying to make.  I'm not trying to say nobles should be pampered by the staff and their every whim catered to, but I do truly think that if more of their needs were taken care of, you might find less retired nobles.  I don't think it's fair to just write it off by simply saying "Oh, well some people can't handle the role.  Fuck them."  And, no offense dear staff or players, but some of you have come narrowly close to saying exactly that.  

It should be assumed when taking a noble role that you won't be entertained 24/7.  That there will be downtimes.  You have to get used to that real quick.  The restrictions are huge.  Most of what a noble does is virtual activity (attending balls hosted by the NPC Houses, mingling with your NPC relatives, being bathed and pampered by NPC servants and slaves, etc.)  Most of what a hunter does is backed up by the code (reading footprints in the ground to track your prey, hunting them down, skinning them, selling their hide to PCs or NPCs, being able to leave the city of your own accord, etc.)  A noble has many restrictions which means that, by and large, unless there are players online when you are, you won't be doing much else but just sitting there.  As long as you are made full aware of the above beforehand, you should have no problem sticking with a noble role for longer than a week.  I'm of the impression anyone who has taken a noble role is aware of this beforehand.  So why are they retiring faster than the blink of an eye?  Is it really fair enough to just say "They can't handle it, so fuck them mother fuckers"?  

I don't know if I have a solution to offer, but I do think it's a problem that needs remedy.  Noble and templar assassinations notwithstanding (because it's always fun when someone manages to kill one off  :twisted:), I think these are roles that should tend to be long-lived more often than not.

Some clans aren't city clans. Some clans, that aren't city clans, have very wellwritten documentation and guidelines. I'm in one of them. I'm the only PC in it right now too and my character isn't a "clan leader." I have no PC clan leader. But it doesn't stop me from supporting the clan goals and having fun doing it. My clan does have goals and a wellrounded philosophy, set of moral guidelines etc. etc. etc. I like to think that I follow it well and do a pretty good job of it, I haven't had any imm comments or criticisms so I have to think I'm doing okay. Maybe my clan is an exception to the rule. Ive been in house clans and I knew there were "backstories" that the lower ranking members didn't know about or only were slightly involved in and kept in the dark on the big picture. But that isn't to say these "big deals" don't happen. I know of a bunch of big plotlines that my characters were involved in and weren't told the details about.

This is fine to me because it made sense that "need to know" was applied at the time. But I think it made me feel a lot more useful when I knew that there *was* a bigger plotline that my character didn't know about. Knowing that I was contriuting as a player to something bigger. Even though knowing this was IC info that maybe I shouldnt know about as a player. But if I didnt know about it and only saw what my character was allowed to know I wonder how much enjoyment I wouldve gotten out of my character's place in things? I didn't know what the big deal plotline was, only that one existed. And that really did help. A lot.

Excellent post, Quirk.

Staying with trying to avoid discussing solutions, but focusing on the issues you raised at the top of the thread:

Quote from: "Quirk"a) Clan goals RP, in the sense I have just defined, is all but dead on Armageddon in most imm-run clans. Where it exists it is rarely directed by PCs. Most RP seen in Houses is petty goals RP.

I think "all but dead" may be too harsh. I think "static" is probably a better term.  Certainly the single largest clan goal is to survive.  Not that exciting, but it explains a lot of the behavior the larger Houses.  The large Houses want to go going on, and are not interested in risk without tremendous potential benefits.  The upper level NPCs (under IMM-control) know this, and steer House actions accordingly.  Limiting on player actions?  Yes.  Realistic?  Absolutely.

I agree that most RP in clans is petty goals.  But, from everything I have read, players insist time and time again that they wish to drive their own plots.  Not have it mandated to them from a Clan IMM..

Quote from: "Quirk" b) Most Houses have no clear path to improve their position.  Either they already hold a trade monopoly or they are constrained by the balance of other forces in their city too great for PCs to have any control over.

and the following corollary.

What I see, rather, is the -goals- of a large Clan being perfectly well laid out, but the manner and method  for a PC to accomplish the Clan's goals being very open.  It is the ability of the PC leaders to set these paths that offers some creativity.  I have seen more than one player have remarkable success pulling off some very interesting role-play, entertaining PCs and spinning plots, working within the framework and driving a clan forward,  without having a stitch of authority to change or alter their clan's goals.

Quote from: "Quirk"c) Little or no competition exists between imm-run clans.  Each large clan maintains some sort of monopoly, and the only resource that remains to squabble over is people.

I only partly disagree.  The competition is not so much over whether Salarr can sell armor that is so ornamental that it infringes into Kadius's luxury monopoly, or whether a silk facewrap is desert-gear or not.  Those things occur, but do not affect any but a small handful of players.  

The real competition is all about -prestige-.  When thinking about a clan or watching a clan in play which one do you envy or fear?  Certainly that is partly an OOC perception, but that is where the real battle is.  Which clans beg for people, which turn away recruits?

Quote from: "Quirk"d) House trade monopolies, misunderstood by players, result in the wiping out of many a promising player-run clan, as well as reducing the pool of potential recruits for such clans by luring away craftsmen with the promise of a steady job and regular meals.

If you have a player-run organization that doesn't sell spice, make arms, or sell finery as their stock and trade, I can't see this being an issue.  And PCs will play where they choose to play.  An interesting player-run clan will hold players because it is interesting RP.

Quote from: "Quirk"e) Such House conflicts as do exist rarely touch the rank and file of PCs working for the organisation beyond perhaps making them aware of the feud.

And some other characters will never get to enjoy the awesome RP in the barracks, the crafting hall, the Diplomatic tables, the shadowy allies or the battlefield.  Nobody gets it all.  And feeling that your character is part of something bigger than himself, even if he has no clue what is -really- going on, is not always so bad.

Quote from: "Quirk"f) Elves, half-elves and lower-class humans are left out by the current emphasis on high-class social circles.

I am not sure that there -is- an emphasis on high-class social circles.  They certainly exist, and they seem active, but there seems to be a bunch of mangy tribals, lone hunters, d-elfs, 'rinthers and scumbags still around.  

I can't answer this except to suggest that if everyone is dressed in flashy silks and slippers, a good starving, amoral bastard should find dirty work to do pretty easily.

As to the last quote from the help files...  I agree with you that it does seem very unlikely that any PC could become a fabled elemental being, single handedly dominate the world's economy, or attack and defeat a city-state with his own band of hand-picked, hand-trained soldiers.


Seeker

I feel Quirk's post is an excellent summary of the current state of the game. There have been many times that I've pondered how to express similar opinions into words, but Quirk has taken the time to write his own, and write them well. Thank you QUIRK for taking that time.

Needless to say, I agree with all of Quirk's points mentioned in his original post, and feel as though a shadowy veil has been lifted from my eyes. Each point mentioned was stated so clearly and concisely that I can finally trace the root of my disatisfaction with playing in most clans. No longer am I plagued with the doubt that I'm just an anti-social gamer who enjoys being a loner PC, with all the benefits it brings. I see now where I've felt that clan play was lacking, and Quirk has opened my eyes to it fully.

How many others reading this post have felt the same way I have? Felt that there's little appeal to joining a clan? Or did you perhaps settle with Kurac as a compromise because of its exceptional nature compared to other clans? I think Quirk has done us all a service by really focusing on the core of our issues.

I look forward to reading other opinions on the subject.

Quote from: "Seeker"

Quote from: "Quirk"d) House trade monopolies, misunderstood by players, result in the wiping out of many a promising player-run clan, as well as reducing the pool of potential recruits for such clans by luring away craftsmen with the promise of a steady job and regular meals.

If you have a player-run organization that doesn't sell spice, make arms, or sell finery as their stock and trade, I can't see this being an issue.  And PCs will play where they choose to play.  An interesting player-run clan will hold players because it is interesting RP.

While I wish to refrain from jumping in on every point and arguing my view until I've seen a few more posts giving a range of opinions, I'll just list here a few crafting skills which would put you into competition with the big Houses.

Armor_making (Salarr)
Bow_making (Salarr)
Cloth_working (Kadius)
Club_making (Salarr)
Dyeing (Kadius)
Feather_working (Kadius)
Fletchery (Salarr)
Floristry (Kadius)
Jewelry_making (Kadius)
Knife_making (Salarr)
Leather_working (Everybody)
Spear_making (Salarr)
Sword_making (Salarr)
Tent_making (Kurac)
Wood_working (Kadius)

This, not too remarkably, covers most of the skills available to crafters. I would venture to suggest that finding oneself in competition with a big House as an independent is hence not staggeringly unlikely.

Quirk

Heh Quirk don't forget soapmaking. I was on one clan once, wanted to introduce a line of specialized soaps. I was told "We aren't the Bath and Bodyworks of Zalanthas" and then informed that our clan would be in competition with Kadius if we introduced soaps. Which is, IMO, preposterous since Kadius doesn't make or sell soaps.

But don't even try to come up with something original, because -someone- will insist that you can't do it because it would infringe on another House's territory.

*takes a deep breathe*

Dismantle the god kings and knock down the city states

Set up smaller feudal territories ruled by the remaining noble houses/Templars and outposts and caravan camps run by merchant houses in their places.

Make them constantly fight for influence, repel the constantly raiding tribal factions etc, etc

Zalanthas sans uberpowerful ultimate power wielding god kings would create a world that was really filled with conflict.

*joe the radical steps off of his pulpit and gets back to work*

Quote from: "jmordetsky"*takes a deep breathe*

Dismantle the god kings and knock down the city states

Hey hey. The solutions can wait for another day. Let's not derail the problem discussion thread just yet. ;)

Quirk

sarahjc, if you're not careful, I'm going to steal your boyfriend from you.

I have to agree with pretty much everything Quirk stated...*sigh* Dammit.

Same here.

Quote from: "jhunter"I have to agree with pretty much everything Quirk stated...*sigh* Dammit.

Unfortunately I agree.

I think most do.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"*takes a deep breathe*

Dismantle the god kings and knock down the city states

Quiet you, are you trying to give away our secret plans!?!  Thats it, no soup for you!

On a non-derails note, I tend to agree with alot of Quirk said.  Some clans will give you alot of freedom, but most of the time you just fall into a stock role of some sort without much freedom to change anything.

Why does everyone think that was a joke?  I think its a wicked idea...*sigh*

Quote from: "uberjazz"Why does everyone think that was a joke?  I think its a wicked idea...*sigh*

Work on it ICly.  I don't think its any secret, look at the timeline, that in some places there are people doing stuff like this.  They aren't very successful, but if a few good players got their act together and worked on it maybe there would be a bit more conflict in the streets.  Revolution is a very common thing in the real world, its not that hard to see a few enterprising individuals getting mad about templarate oppression.

Personally, if I saw an IMM led revolt I'd be very saddened, IMM cooperation is needed but ultimately the game should (and generally seems to be) player driven.  That current clans are stuck in a status quo is a different problem in my mind.

Note:  This isnt an attack on Uberjazz's one line post, just a response to what I saw as a possible interpretation.  I agree, it would be a wicked idea  :twisted:

I disagree with your assertions and here's why: in the past few years I've seen a number of clans reach the levels of success you're saying aren't possible, including establishing mercenary companies, a start for a new House, and two schools. (As well as at least one person becoming an elemental - I think I've seen five of these in the course of my time on the game.) All of them player driven and organized, and which wouldn't have come into being without the players who got them going and kept them running.

Can you do this in an established merchant or noble house? Probably not, although I can think of at least one clan that has had a PC in an extremely high position. The thing with established houses is that PCs often forget that there are literally hundreds of VNPCs in there, all equally ambitious and even when that PC rises in power, they tend to overlook the virtual world. I would not want to have someone become head of a noble house, for example, unless it's over the coruse of long, long play where they've demonstrated they can handle the responsibility and take that virtual world into account because 9 times out of 10, I see even the best players overlook it.

While there's some jostling for power between established clans, their positions have been consolidated over hundreds of years. It's going to take a great deal to wipe out a merchant house, for example, and not usually something that would be to the advantage of existing powers. This seems like an unrealistic goal to me, although things along the lines that you mention, such as "A Merchant House opening an outpost in a hitherto untouched territory or expanding their facilities in a certain area would fit into this category, as would competition for contracts between mercenary outfits, negotations and skirmishes between tribes for hunting rights, and many more things. " do seem more realistic and are along the lines of things that I have seen played out. I've also seen people make changes to merchant houses although it took effort, thought, and creativity as well as an understanding of how the trade monopolies worked.

I think there's a difference between clan goals like "I'm going to rise in power in my clan", which is doable, and "I'm going to lead my clan to eradicate several other clans and take their lands," which is not. It's my experience that when you try to get players involved in plotlines at these levels that they end up either expecting to influence things in an unrealistic way, or they feel that they are being dragged into something they don't want to participate in, but would rather go craft or hunt gortok.

I wouldn't mind seeing more espionage, more petty rivalries, more sabotage, etc, but I think to expect this to take place at the clan to clan level is unrealistic.

Clans aren't for everyone - some people like the structure they provide, while others prefer to go solo. This is why both options exist and why there's a wide variety of clans, including a large number of player created ones.

It seems to me Sanvean...that you are saying exactly what Quirk said...just worded differently.

Can you expect to ever do any of these things in a coded clan? Probably not.

Which is what the terrible drawback to playing in coded clans are...eventually any role in them...becomes dull because you've reached the limits of what you'll ever be able to accomplish within the clan...and it's not even hard to reach that point.

As you stated a few do break free...very few...which means your chances no matter how well you rp are between slim and none.

Chances are greater that you will end up stuck in a rut with the coded clan because of this, which is the problem with the coded clans.

There's always this...don't rock the boat attitude which I can see, but I don't think should always be the case.

Quote from: "uberjazz"Why does everyone think that was a joke?  I think its a wicked idea...*sigh*

Thought about it, then expanded on it in the consolidation thead linking it to here...I think really, they deal with same feeling amongst players...didn't want to derail this too much, cuz it has it's own important points.

I think it's difficult to keep the virtual populace in mind when there is little to no interaction with them, and rarely any reminder that they are there.  I don't propose the staff waste time by constantly nagging PCs with a reminder of this in-game, but it's easy to understand why this happens.

I think it would be ideal if the PCs (along with a very finite per centage of the virtual house populace) were pooled together in one individual "unit".  This way you can battle statements like "We have no employees, we need to hire some."  Obviously the House has employees at all times, it just needs players.  In this case, someone could actually say "Our unit has few employees, we need more," and actually mean it.  It might also help lessen the necessity for players to always remind themselves of this virtual presence that they never ever see nor are ever reminded of.  So, you can climb the ranks of your individual unit and compete mainly with the other players, but to climb the ranks of your House is a different story.

I don't think we're saying the same thing at all. Quirk says:

QuoteAs a last point, I'd like to contrast this little quote, showing how far things have changed in the last few years - would anyone consider it still to be the case?

Quotehelp armageddon wrote:
6) Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
barring the ludicrous. If your character sets up a mercenary company,
he/she may one day lead an army of loyal soldiers on an assault of one
of the great city-states. As a magicker your character may one day become
a fabled elemental being. Burglars may reach levels of affluence beyond
imagination, and merchants may likewise become so rich as to own their
own merchant house and dominate the world's economy. The limits are
truly whatever you can imagine occurring.

I would argue that this is still quite true and in fact is still the case.

Quote from: "Gilvar"You are not important in the scheme of things.
Life will go on without you, and most likely (except in rare cases here and there) will not be changed in a huge way because of you. You are not a unique or beautiful snowflake. You are a very small fish in a very big pond. Life of a large clan (houses, merchant houses, tribes) will probably never rely solely on its PCs. Repeated... life goes on without you.

I wanted to bring this quote over to this thread, because it's vastly important.  People can and do effect changes to the world, yet these changes are few and the changers rare.  Is this as it should be?  Absolutely.  If you don't believe that there are PCs making a difference in Armageddon presently, I would put forward Ayun Iskandar as a prime example of something conceived and created by a PC, with the support of his clan Immortal.  Unfortunately, if you don't know what Ayun Iskandar is, you'll have to find out IC; the point is, the PC in question put forth a great effort to see his concept made into (virtual) reality.

As Archimedes noted, only two things are truly necessary to move the world - a lever long enough, and a place to stand.  When I read threads like this, my personal perception is that people understand that it is very difficult to change the world of Armageddon, and that rather than putting more effort into changing things, they'd rather lower the bar.  Rather than discussing it at any more length, I will simply say that I would be disappointed to see that happen.  You are not important in the scheme of things.  It should be and is possible to rise above that simple assertion, yet the stark existentialism of Zalanthas is part of its appeal.

On conflict - whenever I see people saying "there isn't enough conflict", I take that to be saying, "not enough pkilling going on."  No, I don't think the two are equivalent, but yes, I think that quite a few Arm players consider them to be so.  Pk is common.  I see it all the time.  You know what I haven't seen?  A bard who gets hired by a noble House, gains the favor of the nobles, and then proceeds to compose and sing satirical ballads about other Houses and nobles.  And you know, I don't actually think I'll be seeing that sort of thing.  It takes a bit of time and effort to set up, some planning and forethought to carry out well, and it won't result in instant gratification.  But... I'd be willing to be proven wrong.

Quote from: "Sanvean"I would argue that this is still quite true and in fact is still the case.

The last point was very much more of a side note than the main thrust of the argument, and I'd rather that responses didn't focus on it, although I think it's a useful test of players' perceptions. The main points I made dealt with the static nature of the current clans and the lack of competition between them.

I agree that the huge, unwieldly clans we have are mostly far too large for players to influence. I would argue that this reduces the enjoyment players have when playing in these clans; the patience needed to be able to alter the clan from within is vast, and those who don't manage to keep characters alive for a long time end up feeling they never made any impact.

There aren't many halfway points between player-run clans, where the players get to decide everything the clan does, and the big Houses, where the players have little influence and that gathered over months or years, as things stand. The Byn could be said to qualify size-wise; PCs not infrequently rise to a level not far short of ultimate leadership - but it is the exception among clans rather than the rule.

Quirk

Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"As Archimedes noted, only two things are truly necessary to move the world - a lever long enough, and a place to stand.  When I read threads like this, my personal perception is that people understand that it is very difficult to change the world of Armageddon, and that rather than putting more effort into changing things, they'd rather lower the bar.  Rather than discussing it at any more length, I will simply say that I would be disappointed to see that happen.  You are not important in the scheme of things.  It should be and is possible to rise above that simple assertion, yet the stark existentialism of Zalanthas is part of its appeal.

There are a multitude of virtual clans in the world that PCs could have visible effects on. Clans which are smaller than the Houses, yet more than a half-dozen PCs. I don't think anyone's suggesting moving the world as a whole - they'd rather have organisations where PC members can readily make or break alliances with other clans, where conflict is decided at a PC level rather than at a docs level.

Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"On conflict - whenever I see people saying "there isn't enough conflict", I take that to be saying, "not enough pkilling going on."  No, I don't think the two are equivalent, but yes, I think that quite a few Arm players consider them to be so.  Pk is common.  I see it all the time.

So do I, but I see it for all the wrong reasons.

I don't see a lot of PK to further clan goals. I see a lot of PK to avenge minor insults. This is not clan-to-clan conflict. It's sometimes frustration at the lack of clan-to-clan conflict, perhaps.

Quirk

Quote from: "Sanvean"I disagree with your assertions and here's why: in the past few years I've seen a number of clans reach the levels of success you're saying aren't possible, including establishing mercenary companies, a start for a new House, and two schools. (As well as at least one person becoming an elemental - I think I've seen five of these in the course of my time on the game.) All of them player driven and organized, and which wouldn't have come into being without the players who got them going and kept them running.

It doesn't depend on the players. It just depends on if the imms will support your idea or not.

Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"
On conflict - whenever I see people saying "there isn't enough conflict", I take that to be saying, "not enough pkilling going on."  No, I don't think the two are equivalent, but yes, I think that quite a few Arm players consider them to be so.  Pk is common.  I see it all the time.  You know what I haven't seen?  A bard who gets hired by a noble House, gains the favor of the nobles, and then proceeds to compose and sing satirical ballads about other Houses and nobles.  And you know, I don't actually think I'll be seeing that sort of thing.  It takes a bit of time and effort to set up, some planning and forethought to carry out well, and it won't result in instant gratification.  But... I'd be willing to be proven wrong.

Talk, eventually, is cheap. You can sit and plot and plot and make subtle barbs until the mud closes down. So what. No one has the balls to do anything about said barbs. When does something happen? All the Houses sit around subtly barbing each other's good name. But no one does anything other than toss out a few subtle barbs of their own. It seems to me lately, everyone is being encouraged to do nothing but sit around and talk about doing stuff with out every actually doing anything.

Raiders are bad. Bad. We will crush you for it. There will be IC consequences! Yet, you go outside and its a picnic. There is little need to hire escorts other than for appearances. Let there be no conflict other than between imm-driven plots. You are not important enough to start up any conflict or do anything useful. Go to the tavern and sit and be glad you can. Actually accomplishing something is looked down upon in favor of Rping you did something. Why leave the walls to kill that critter. Just Rp that you found one and killed it and emote doing so and they can emote receiving it and emote giving you coins and you can emote buying something to fill your belly. Yay! I am not against the bard idea. But if everyone was a bard doing that. The horror. Someone somewhere needs to be able to open up some OPEN conflict between powers that be.

Or else l et the MUSH-like tavern-sitting MUDSEX fiesta begin.

I'm not sure that many of us are qualified to say that its not possible to rise in the ranks of a major house and change things.  Very few people have played in a major house for the amount of time it would take to do so.  You'd realistically have to be around for at least 2-3 RL years I would think before you'd be of the stature to "move the world" in a house.

QuoteI don't think we're saying the same thing at all. Quirk says:

Quote:
As a last point, I'd like to contrast this little quote, showing how far things have changed in the last few years - would anyone consider it still to be the case?

Quote:
help armageddon wrote:
6) Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
barring the ludicrous. If your character sets up a mercenary company,
he/she may one day lead an army of loyal soldiers on an assault of one
of the great city-states. As a magicker your character may one day become
a fabled elemental being. Burglars may reach levels of affluence beyond
imagination, and merchants may likewise become so rich as to own their
own merchant house and dominate the world's economy. The limits are
truly whatever you can imagine occurring.  



I would argue that this is still quite true and in fact is still the case.

Yes...it's true...although every unlikely and nearly immpossible if you are a part of the -coded- clans which I think was the point. I've yet to see anything about any of the coded clans get changed by pc influence in a long time...a few minor whoopdedoo things.

The way some clans are today is because players in the past were allowed to influence them in some way..today that is not the case,IMHO.

I know from my limited experience, there are higher goals within the Merchant Houses.  You don't see them without digging *deep*, because they aren't public knowledge.  Sure, they want to make money, but do you really think they maintain their monopolies on polite words?  

As for people in the clan...you still might not see any higher clan goals, because the leadership doesn't trust you.  Hell, most of the PC leadership in clans is lower tier, as you start working your way up the ranks you'd be surprised how much goes on behind the scenes you were never aware of.  A private in such and such clan's guard isn't going to know much of anything about the clan's higher political goals, a sergaent probably wouldn't either but might get a tiny taste of it from time to time if they're perceptive.  Those who are on the operating end, rather then military, might see more of these plots, but even then only if they ascend through the ranks.

Knowledge is not something spread around in Arm, you gotta dig to know whats going on behind the scenes.

That isn't necessarily digging...that's just sticking around through the boredom long enough to get to the good stuff and that's if you don't die or retire your pc from boredom.

Personally, it doesn't seem worth it to me to have to play the same pc through 2RL years of boredom day in and day out to get to the good stuff, when you could start out in a non-coded clan and get right to it.

I'd had alot more faith in the coded clans until I spent this much time in one, seems the only way to create any excitement is to make a pc that will never rise in the house because they are constantly causing problems and breaking the rules....but then again, they won't live long because most likely they will be killed off anyways.

It's really messed up that way, make a pc that is a good employee and you get nothing...make one that is a shitty employee and you get loads of fun.

My opinion...

I agree with Quirk about the Clan goals, Petty goals and such.   It might be a relation like "As the clan gets bigger,  the individual gets more on petty goals".  Or "As the clans get bigger, it is less likely that an individual can make a significant effect on the overall house" and that would be a very realistic statement.  If there are thousands like you, you are not something unique for your clan.
My opinion about the houses:  If you are in a big house, you do not feel the real harshness of Zalanthas.    You can live without seeing "you are thirsty" message, and yet, you usually dont have an influence on the clan. You are more likely to be one of the -common- members.  

Come to the small scales:  Lets say you and a dozen more PC have a clan.  Now a single boss mob, or a pack of gith might be the very end of this group.  You really would have to work hard for the existance, but a PC can raise to any rank in this organization.  Having a conflict, or forming an allience with another small organization are all readily available options for this clan.

Having these options, I guess it is really a give and take between these.  You choose your option and play along.  In other threads, there had been some ideas like, closing the big houses  to PCs, or closing some houses...  I am totally against it.  Because, there is no reason why I should not have the option to play a part (even if it is really a small part) in a big organization.  

And I see no reason why a world like Zalanthas should not have Major cities, Major organizations and such.  So I dont agree with knocking down the cities either (Even if this is just brought up as a joke) If you really want to play a tribal PC who is totally concerned on survival, you always have the option to do so.  All you need is a some people in agreement with you.

And about the help file:

QuoteDespite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
barring the ludicrous...

I believe this holds true, provided you are trying something realistic.  If you are trying to take over Allanak, which has a population like 500k, with templars, magickers, a powerful military force, you should at least reach the same numbers. If you are trying to make a mercenary group that will be the competitive of Byn, you should begin by gathering a 500 people or so, be it VNPC, NPC or PC.  If you are trying to reach to the leadership in a big organization, you should probably beat down all other VNPC, NPC and PC candidates.  You can list all the possibilities...

These are all that come to my mind for now.  I dont know how much I derailed the thread, but I could not help.. It is 4.00 AM in the morning :shock:

QuoteIf it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm glad you didn't go for solutions yet, Quirk, because I don't think there is anything to fix.  Since other people have already disagreed with your assertions that clan goals RP is dead, that there is no inter-clan conflict and that what little conflict might exist is never seen by the rank and file, I won't even go there.  So, putting aside whether these assertions are even correct, my main quibble is over whether anything needs to be fixed.

Your whole argument seems to be based around a premise that "clan goals RP" is far superior to "petty goals RP".  Even your name for it implies this (since petty, in addition to meaning simply "minor", connotes something that is of small importance, inconsequential and trivial).  RP arising from self-interested goals can have quite a bit of consequence, can involve quite a number of other players and can have far-reaching effects. Then there are the self-interested goals which merge and meld with clan goals; those which arise from the self-interest of an individual whose personal interests are inextricably bound up with the interests of his or her organization.

A Borsail noble's personal goals are very likely going to converge with the interests of her whole house or, at the least, provide some benefit to the house.  And the nature of those personal goals will, in no small part, be shaped by the very fact that she is a member of the Borsail family.

Quote from: "Quirk"...there is no real reason to have the Houses if they do not provide any extra opportunities for RP.

I think they do provide extra opportunities by virtue of the fact that they help define who people are.  The Houses gives us a rich history and set of traditions which help to focus an individual's goals, to say nothing of how being in a certain house will bring with it traditional enemies and allies and colour how our PC is viewed by others.

"Petty goals RP" may not involve wars nor culminate in world-changing events. But, personally, I am glad that the vast majority of the players do not have the power to effect these kinds of things. When I first started on Arm eight months ago, the thing that impressed me the most was that people dared to play the losers, the inept, the hopelessly stupid, the mundane.  Not everyone was striving to be the super-powerful knight or the charismatic leader that people the lesser muds out there.  Similarly, I find it a good thing that one player in a clan, or even a small group within a clan, has small hope of changing, in just a few IG years, the focus a House has had for decades upon decades.

I agree that petty goals can have widespread consequences, but most people's petty goals are the same.  Get 'x' amount of sid...by 'y' items with it...get a house or apartment, maybe a spouse.  Blah blah blah.  Nothing interesting.  I want to see someone -move- me with some sort of creative ambition, even if its just a personal quest of some sort.

QuoteI think they do provide extra opportunities by virtue of the fact that they help define who people are. The Houses gives us a rich history and set of traditions which help to focus an individual's goals, to say nothing of how being in a certain house will bring with it traditional enemies and allies and colour how are PC is viewed by others.

"Petty goals RP" may not involve wars nor culminate in world-changing events. But, personally, I am glad that the vast majority of the players do not have the power to effect these kinds of things. When I first started on Arm eight months ago, the thing that impressed me the most was that people dared to play the losers, the inept, the hopelessly stupid, the mundane. Not everyone was striving to be the super-powerful knight or the charismatic leader that people the lesser muds out there. Similarly, I find it a good thing that one player in a clan, or even a small group within a clan, has small hope of changing, in just a few IG years, the focus a House has had for decades upon decades.

The problem is, I think...that nothing is ever done with this.

It's more like all you get is current stability, more background stuff but you aren't allowed to do anything with any of it.

This is stifling to those of us that prefer to play pcs that actually do something with their lives rather than be content to sit around in taverns and mudsex.

Man, if I wanted to play a nobody will never do anything truly important I can go back to my real life.

We can't all be LoD.

QuoteWe can't all be LoD.

???


I'm afraid I'm not getting you.

If we lived long enough, maybe we could.  That also has comething to do with it as well, though that's no one's fault.  People die too often before they can become well-enough known for people to give a shit.  This is not always the case, of course...I can think of two or three immediate examples in the game world right now.  And to be honest, none of them are clanned in any way shape or form.  I.e. they aren't tied down to a boss, and thus they can do as they wish, and talk with who they wish, and go where they want.  Freedom is the catalyst great things, in my opinion.

What's an LoD?

Anyway, this may be so for some groups, but speaking from experience, there's some imm-run clans that have the larger goals, and are persuing them. Of course, whether they succeed or fail is entirely another matter with countless factors all the way from IC to OOC. An example of both would be IC getting all the moving parts in position to pull off something substantial (probably taking years in game), and OOC the immortals allowing for it to occur...

I'm guessing by their nature most uber plans would and do fail. There's a reason things are the way they are and rarely change: Powerful people and groups are damn cunning at staying that way, or they'd be dead. Maybe my cup is half full, but I'd imagine if PCs organized something serious, with the imms having full knowledge, and their chance of success was realistic with all the hidden variables, they'd be given a shot. Of one thing I'm certain: Sure as heck makes for fun RP to try.

Quote from: "Anonymous"That isn't necessarily digging...that's just sticking around through the boredom long enough to get to the good stuff and that's if you don't die or retire your pc from boredom.

Personally, it doesn't seem worth it to me to have to play the same pc through 2RL years of boredom day in and day out to get to the good stuff, when you could start out in a non-coded clan and get right to it.

I'd had alot more faith in the coded clans until I spent this much time in one, seems the only way to create any excitement is to make a pc that will never rise in the house because they are constantly causing problems and breaking the rules....but then again, they won't live long because most likely they will be killed off anyways.

It's really messed up that way, make a pc that is a good employee and you get nothing...make one that is a shitty employee and you get loads of fun.

I completely disagree.  Just staying alive is a minor part of getting invovled in more intricate and secret plot lines.  Think real life.  The majority of people go about their daily work and aren't involved in any of the behind the scenes politics.  The same is true for Arm.  If you want to get into that behind the scenes stuff, you need to dig into it.

I dont know...I would think digging into it if your not being involved in it...could just get you killed.

Also, just knowing about it doesn't make it useful or exciting.

Whoohoo! I -know- stuff....ahahahaha...eheh...errm...

It doesn't mean you are going to be involved in it or get any enjoyment out of it.

LoD is an exceptional player who has enacted world-changing events, sometimes without even being clanned.

Quote from: "jhunter"I dont know...I would think digging into it if your not being involved in it...could just get you killed.

Also, just knowing about it doesn't make it useful or exciting.

Whoohoo! I -know- stuff....ahahahaha...eheh...errm...

It doesn't mean you are going to be involved in it or get any enjoyment out of it.

Yup!  It can get you killed!

Thats realistic though right?  *grins*

Quotejhunter wrote:
I dont know...I would think digging into it if your not being involved in it...could just get you killed.

Also, just knowing about it doesn't make it useful or exciting.

Whoohoo! I -know- stuff....ahahahaha...eheh...errm...

It doesn't mean you are going to be involved in it or get any enjoyment out of it.


Yup! It can get you killed!

Thats realistic though right? *grins*

Uhmm, yes...but it's no fun if they just up and kill you off for knowing.

The point was to get involved in it, not be collateral damage.

Quirk summed it up perfectly, just like always.

Quote from: "Unicorn"

QuoteIf it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm glad you didn't go for solutions yet, Quirk, because I don't think there is anything to fix.  Since other people have already disagreed with your assertions that clan goals RP is dead, that there is no inter-clan conflict and that what little conflict might exist is never seen by the rank and file, I won't even go there.

Just as well; you might want to reread the responses in this thread and see how much disagreement there really is.

Quote from: "Unicorn"A Borsail noble's personal goals are very likely going to converge with the interests of her whole house or, at the least, provide some benefit to the house.

Having seen a number of nobles at work over the years, I would strongly dispute that. In fact, the tendency of nobles to quarrel with people that notionally they're allies with leads many personal-level feuds to be directly detrimental to the House, though on a scale too small to affect it.

Quote from: "Unicorn""Petty goals RP" may not involve wars nor culminate in world-changing events. But, personally, I am glad that the vast majority of the players do not have the power to effect these kinds of things. When I first started on Arm eight months ago, the thing that impressed me the most was that people dared to play the losers, the inept, the hopelessly stupid, the mundane.  Not everyone was striving to be the super-powerful knight or the charismatic leader that people the lesser muds out there.  Similarly, I find it a good thing that one player in a clan, or even a small group within a clan, has small hope of changing, in just a few IG years, the focus a House has had for decades upon decades.

You're passing too quickly over a couple of things here. Firstly, there's no recommendation that players should get to easily change the world, merely a cry for clans of a size that players can realistically affect.

Secondly, hack and slash muds are not the only nor indeed the obvious competitors to Armageddon that bear looking at. I came to Armageddon myself from Harshlands, an RPI which was at the time probably the second largest worthy of the name, though I suspect SoI may have overtaken its numbers since. To many Armers, it's seen as a "dull" place to play. It remains utterly excellent at providing mundanity. Few have positions of power or affluence, certainly none on a scale that can affect the countries of the mud; probably the majority are apprentices and journeymen working in small shops. As of a of few years ago, it hit a level of stagnation that was exceptional even by its own standards.

The problem was largely the problem which is coming to affect Armageddon now, for different reasons. In the main location of play, a bustling city, most factions had no real reason to be at one another's throats; no seed for conflict existed, and players didn't have the power to sway their faction's view of others. The world in which it was based was inherently less unfriendly than Armageddon tends to be, and people were perhaps more realistic than some are here about what sort of provocation it takes for one person to be driven to murder another on personal grounds. Such conflicts as arose were minor and easily settled without bloodshed. There were areas certainly where gripping do-or-die RP was to be had, among the organised criminal element and the militia who fought them, and even in the midst of a city that provided nothing interesting day-to-day for most of its PC citizens I managed to get sucked into a plot which remains one of the best RP experiences I have ever had, but to focus on the exceptions would be a grave mistake.

To pause a moment in recounting the circumstances, Tuluk is speedily moving in the same direction. I think people are coming to realise that murder is a bit over-the-top as a response to a half-elf spilling a drink down your front, and we're going to see personal conflicts grow more realistic but also more subdued. The open friendliness is already there, however people may be structuring their thoughts underneath. It is of course far from "stagnant" yet, and there's thrilling RP to be had still if you're willing to play risky roles such as spies, or shake up the political landscape until someone overreacts and attempts to kill you, but there's no suggestion that the leader characters are capable of having a significant and lasting impact on their own immediate surroundings, never mind the world (and when I say "significant", I mean greater than merely managing to have another noble killed).

Harshlands' problems of the time were significantly alleviated by a push to drive most of the playerbase into a smaller frontier town; analogously, a shift from 'Nak to Storm or a place of a lower population still. The initial plans were to  fill the ruling Council of the town with PCs, a goal which I think was only ever half accomplished (I left midway through these changes) and to activate and support player-controlled factions with views and goals diametrically opposite those of a large section of the characters already there (which was a distinct success and led to sustained levels of ongoing tension punctuated by the odd extremely bloody incident). Of course, it didn't lead to the larger city location being abandoned utterly, but most voted with their feet. PCs might not have been able to affect the large cities, or the countries round about, but they could be big fish in the smaller pond and the quality of PC intrigue improved astoundingly.

Armageddon is not Harshlands. It has never yet reached the dearth of conflict that afflicted Harshlands at its worst. It is almost by definition a far harsher world. Nonetheless, the static relations between clans and the large numbers of people in them who do not have to worry where their next meal is coming from or how they'll survive is corroding that harshness, and the resemblance is growing.

It will always be possible to raise conflict by departing from the norm; by being the rebel, the troublesome employee, the scoundrel. If that's what you have to do to find conflict though, something is lacking.

Quirk

I've seen leader types try to make 'big deal' things happen. A couple that I knew about, didn't plan it out very well, didn't put much thought into it, didn't consider the consequences. They only thought of how they could make it work - and not how the majority of "everyone else" could stop them. And so, the plans failed, or were shot down before they could ever get off the ground.

I've seen leader types who took what was originally mundane and turned it into a potential threat against their clan/city. They would go to investigate the situation, take many of their clan members and even outsiders to help... and find - nothing out of the ordinary.

I've also seen leader types come up with plots to usurp their enemy house, and even set things in motion - only to be told by the clan IMM (either ICly or OOCly) to leave the enemy alone.

I've even seen leader types come up with plots to usurp commoners who posed a threat to their clan, and set things in motion, only to be told (either icly or oocly) by their clan IMM to leave the enemy alone.

I have to conclude, based only on my own observations, that part of the problem is clan leaders who come up with sweeping ideas but have poor skills with implementation. The other part of the problem would be that when a clan leader -does- come up with a good idea and gives it thought and considers the consequences, the idea is shot down by the staff, thus stifling their ability to -be- the clan leader they're supposed to be.

I'm sure there are many, many other situations that fall under different categories of "why can't these things happen?" but those two seem the most prevalent.

I completely disagree with the notions presented in this thread. As a player, I've changed the world many times. I've started and stopped conflicts and I've rose in power in clans that are said to be stagnant. How? By having a little vision and talking other people into doing my dirty work for me, for example.

What some of the players are having a hard time understanding is the diffrence between causing a world shaking event that are unrealistic and following a careful plan to success. Lust like IRL, if you do not have the skills to be a lawyer, people will laugh at you if you ask to represent them. Also, if you are a cop who decides to take the law into their own hands, expect resistance to this, even if it makes sense to you. Even better, if you are a CEO of a major company and you decide on your weekend off to work out a merger with another company and not consult your shareholders, your going to be met with resistance.

We have in this game, expecially in the cities, something I call the status quo.  The establishment. Its a veritable mountain to move, but it CAN be moved if you have the right lever as someone put it eloquently and know where to push.

I can't stress enough that if you REALLY want to make things happen, consult your clan imm. Your clan imm may very well turn your situation around on you (which is why our more addle-brained players avoid this) this is so your experience is realistic, but let's face it.. a good number of our players do not care about realism, all that matters is their personal boredom. Boredom is the lamest excuse to use in this game, there are a thousand and one ways to die and more ways to enjoy yourself/keep occupied. Players who are easily bored I also have a name for 'SHEEP'.

Quote from: "Bhagharva"I completely disagree with the notions presented in this thread. As a player, I've changed the world many times. I've started and stopped conflicts and I've rose in power in clans that are said to be stagnant. How? By having a little vision and talking other people into doing my dirty work for me, for example.

How often have you effected something (within say, the last three years, as a player) that has caused a shift in the balance of power between major clans or brought clan-wide (rather than personal) conflict into play between clans that were not already experiencing such?

"Rising in power" within a clan is not hard to do at certain levels (e.g. gaining leadership over other PCs) and is rarely seen at others (e.g. obtaining a position where say, you can legitimately decide to halt your House's co-operation with House Voryek).

The key point to understand here is that people are not asking to shake the world; they are asking to have some measure of control over the organisations they are part of. We understand the realism arguments, so we'd be happy with organisations of a size that we could realisticly change.

Quote from: "Bhagharva"Even better, if you are a CEO of a major company and you decide on your weekend off to work out a merger with another company and not consult your shareholders, your going to be met with resistance.

And yet the vast majority of PC leaders are not CEOs, but middle managers, often saddled with the vaguest of responsibilities, given little guidance, and slapped down when they transgress their sometimes ill-defined boundaries.

Quote from: "Bhagharva"We have in this game, expecially in the cities, something I call the status quo.  The establishment. Its a veritable mountain to move, but it CAN be moved if you have the right lever as someone put it eloquently and know where to push.

It moves but little when it moves at all, and we all know this. It takes months or years to change things. While this is as it should be on the world scale, there's a lack of medium-sized city clans in which PCs could make a far more significant difference.

Quote from: "Bhagharva"Boredom is the lamest excuse to use in this game, there are a thousand and one ways to die and more ways to enjoy yourself/keep occupied. Players who are easily bored I also have a name for 'SHEEP'.

In your last couple of posts, you've made the assumption that people who disagree with you are easily bored, and insulted them. This is not a particularly encouraging attitude to see from an imm. Many of us who have posted run successful independent characters which we find interesting and exciting, and enjoy fulfilling their personal goals. These characters often accomplish far more than most in Houses do, largely because they do not suffer the constraints of ritualised sparring and schedules, of having static allegiances that set their personal relationships with those of other Houses in stone. I could well be insulting about those who spend the majority of a year playing in a House, increase the PC guards from a couple to a half-dozen, get promoted to Sergeant or Lieutenant and then imagine they've accomplished something major for that House. I choose not to. If people wish to restrict their characters' ability to fulfill their personal goals in exchange for an absence of clan goals, that's fine by me, but it does not encourage me to play in those clans. I'd rather play in a player-run one, even though player-run clans have a notorious habit of attracting the unpleasant and often violent attentions of bored House players. Where there are imm-run clans of a size small enough that I feel a single PC can make a serious impact over time, or that are good at cascading clan goals down to the lower ranks, I will play in them, too. But I think if this thread has shown anything, it's shown that this disillusionment with most clan RP is not solely confined to myself alone.

I urge you to reread my initial points, and if you disagree with them, please ask yourself why it is that most people who have posted in this thread see things differently. The answer is not "they're sheep".

Quirk

Quirk is absolutely right.  I think things used to be different, worse in some ways, but better in others (as far as clan RP goes).  It used to be that players had (or could have) unrealistic power and influence in their clans.  This had the negative effect of being unrealistic and hurting the game world (heh), but it did have a positive effect of -being fun-!  I can't blame the imm's from doing their best to make things realistic, after all, that's the goal of this game we all play.  But, there's been an unwanted side effect of making clan RP "petty".

People want to be able to engage with their clan, to join together, so their efforts can make a real difference in whether their clan succeeds or fails, profits more or less, grows or shrinks.  This just doesn't seem to happen anymore.  It isn't realistic for a middle manager to have a real sort of effect on the bottom line of a huge corporation, right?  But, that's not fun.

I recently had a long-lived character in one of these corporate clans, I was the 2nd most important PC in the clan (arguably the first most in terms of day to day operation).  My goals and the goals I brought to the clan were all of the 'petty' variety.  Now, don't get me wrong, I had a good time playing that character...it's just the IC clan itself was completely irrelevent to my OOC experience of playing the character, and my character's experience and IC efforts were completely unimportant to the IC clan.  Does that make sense?  I mean that clan I was helping to organize and run was really an OOC one, and it was related in name only to the IC clan we were in.  This, to me, is a big problem.

Possibly the solution is to stop joining IC'ly large imm-run clans altogether.  I know I'm not in a hurry to join one again, even though I had a great time with that character.  The things that made that character fun had nothing to do with the IC clan, and would actually have been easier without it.  (Easier as long as I could have rented a room/compound from Nenyuk, anyway.  A clanhall is necessary.)

Quote from: "Unicorn"I'm glad you didn't go for solutions yet, Quirk, because I don't think there is anything to fix.  Since other people have already disagreed with your assertions that clan goals RP is dead, that there is no inter-clan conflict and that what little conflict might exist is never seen by the rank and file, I won't even go there.  So, putting aside whether these assertions are even correct, my main quibble is over whether anything needs to be fixed.

I felt that most of the posts were supporting Quirk.  Time for me to jump in.

Quote from: "Unicorn"Your whole argument seems to be based around a premise that "clan goals RP" is far superior to "petty goals RP".  Even your name for it implies this (since petty, in addition to meaning simply "minor", connotes something that is of small importance, inconsequential and trivial).  RP arising from self-interested goals can have quite a bit of consequence, can involve quite a number of other players and can have far-reaching effects. Then there are the self-interested goals which merge and meld with clan goals; those which arise from the self-interest of an individual whose personal interests are inextricably bound up with the interests of his or her organization.

One of my characters was killed because he called a character in a certain clan (a character that later proved to be nonexistant) a wench.  Another character was killed by the same clan because he muscled a dead duskhorn away from a low-ranking member of that clan.  Before he was killed he went to the clan and gave them what he got from skinning the duskhorn, since he began to realize it was a bad idea.

Quote from: "Unicorn"A Borsail noble's personal goals are very likely going to converge with the interests of her whole house or, at the least, provide some benefit to the house.  And the nature of those personal goals will, in no small part, be shaped by the very fact that she is a member of the Borsail family.

I've yet to meet a noble who's goals were anything but simply rising up in position in their clan.  The typical noble has no clue how to promote the interests of her house, from what I can tell.

Quote from: "Unicorn"I think they do provide extra opportunities by virtue of the fact that they help define who people are.  The Houses gives us a rich history and set of traditions which help to focus an individual's goals, to say nothing of how being in a certain house will bring with it traditional enemies and allies and colour how our PC is viewed by others.

And why can't a clan that isn't as large ICly manage to do the exact same thing?

Quote from: "Unicorn""Petty goals RP" may not involve wars nor culminate in world-changing events. But, personally, I am glad that the vast majority of the players do not have the power to effect these kinds of things. When I first started on Arm eight months ago, the thing that impressed me the most was that people dared to play the losers, the inept, the hopelessly stupid, the mundane.  Not everyone was striving to be the super-powerful knight or the charismatic leader that people the lesser muds out there.  Similarly, I find it a good thing that one player in a clan, or even a small group within a clan, has small hope of changing, in just a few IG years, the focus a House has had for decades upon decades.

I think the underlying and hitherto unmentioned desire is not to take the playerbase and make them into black-robed templars, heads of noble houses, etc.  It isn't to give players the ability to start wars or create world-changing events.  It is simply to be in clans in which making a difference is possible and realistic.  The current clans are obviously unsuitable for allowing this.

Anytime I get frustrated with the way things run, I take a step back and repeat my montra(sp?). There is more going on than I am aware of. I know this for certainty.

I've shook the world, created and destroyed clans. I've rose to power from within and from without. A year ago I took took an independant clan and made a difference in an assault on a city-state. It is all possible. Independant clans rise to power on a regular basis in the game. Unfortunately, it always seems that the same three or four players are the ones who put the effort into making this happen, but IT DOES HAPPEN.

Now, for all of you who are bored in your clans and feel as though you do not have the authority to do the things you would like to do. Act above your authority for crists sake. You will either be smacked down for the shitty job you did, nothing will happen because of the fair job you did. Or maybe, just maybe, you will have furthered your clans goals and be promoted for your work.

Parting thought. More goes on in the world than you are aware of.
Thanos

QuoteIn your last couple of posts, you've made the assumption that people who disagree with you are easily bored, and insulted them. This is not a particularly encouraging attitude to see from an imm. Many of us who have posted run successful independent characters which we find interesting and exciting, and enjoy fulfilling their personal goals.

This is the first post I have made in this thread. I have not made any assumptions about anything. I do not believe that people that disagree with me are bored. If any of you take my critisism of the topic as a personal insult, I can't help that.  This is not the first time I've disagreed with a thread and not the first time the creator of the thread assumed I have a personal grievance with them. I have no problem with stating my big fat opinion about a topic if I feel strongly enough about it. And I see no reason why I should hold back any thoughts I have towards players that lack initiative, but complain that they can't do anything. I am not singling Quirk out. I feel this way about any player who actually lacks initiative. If you are not that kind of player, I am not talking about you. If you are a go getter, that is brilliant and can move mountains but 'the man' is keeping you down.. well..from a birds-eye perspective, we notice players like that pretty quick.

If they truly are innovative, it gets noticed. But trying to change what has been established, just because -you- think its a good idea. Is not a good reason for it to happen. A good reason, is when whatever your trying to accomplish makes sense and you have taken the steps to ensure your project or goal will succeed..

I have played many successful indepentant PC's myself in the day. I've done it in clans and I've done it without. I've halted a years long feud between two clans with my PC. Started a school. Started a business..family.. the list goes on. This is about someones perception of what is petty. If you think working middle management is petty, go start your own business. Just don't expect the support you had in the clan.

Sorry Bhagharva,

I think Quirk is right...your instantly going to the assumption that the players are bored because they have no initiative...and being rather insulting about it IMHO, which is really sad to see from one of our imms.


The problem I see anyway, that you can be motivated all you like...but, everything you do that's out of the ordinary every day shit, has to be approved by an imm. This is understandable, some things wouldn't be appropriate, but others that would be appropriate, are getting shot down as well and causing those motivated leaders to stop trying.

Why work to do anything for the clan if everything you attempt is shot down?

The messed up thing is, my pc has made suggestions to another leader type, and they are happening.

Any of them that my pc might actually get a hand in, other than supplying the idea, is shot down leaving me to boredom.

It's gotten me to wondering all sorts of possiblities as to what the reasoning is behind this is.

Recently I asked my clan imm for some ideas and was given some and told what they wanted to execute them, worked out some things with others in game...mailed the imm back with a question about it...and then was basically given a "forget it" sort of answer.

This wasn't even something really big, just something a bit bigger than normal...that has been done in the past.

QuoteNow, for all of you who are bored in your clans and feel as though you do not have the authority to do the things you would like to do. Act above your authority for crists sake. You will either be smacked down for the shitty job you did, nothing will happen because of the fair job you did. Or maybe, just maybe, you will have furthered your clans goals and be promoted for your work.

Problem is that if you pc knows their boundaries and is trying to be a good employee this will never happen because they try to okay everything first.

Seems like it's a matter of risk fucking things up for your clan and if it goes well you will be rewarded, if it goes bad punished...but do a good job within your limits, be a good employee and you'll go nowhere.

Quote from: "jhunter"

Seems like it's a matter of risk fucking things up for your clan and if it goes well you will be rewarded, if it goes bad punished...but do a good job within your limits, be a good employee and you'll go nowhere.

Well, it's realistic.  Those who take risks get noticed, while those who just do their job tend to fade into the background, with everybody else who is just doing their job.

It isn't always like that...which is the unrealistic part.

Yes sometimes it is, but not always. Sometimes those people would be getting punished just for taking the risk, whether successful or not and getting a "bad mark" on their record that prevents them from going any further.

Maybe this is a matter of different people having different expectations of what is realistic.

I knew someone over a year and a half ago whose character hatched a plot to steal his clan's wagon.  He thought it was well thought out, but it was shot down, so he became upset.  But if he'd thought about it more, he would have realized that the presence of VNPCs did make it unrealistic.

In another case, one of my characters was told to deal with a situation, and I outlined what she had thought out and done, for the imm.  Another imm informed my imm of a circumstance that made the original plan unrealistic.  It sucked big time, but now that I have more distance from the situation, it was the right decision.

If you want to accomplish something, it requires more than just getting the idea and running out and doing it.  You need planning, patience, perseverance.  You need to stick it out for awhile, think everything through, and you need to be able to deal with obstacles that may be placed in your way.

I put forth LoD earlier as a player who has accomplished great things in the past. Here are quotes of two excellent posts he made awhile back, which are actually to do with creating new clans, but also apply to anything else world-changing you might want to do:

Quote from: "LoD (Snarf)"Leading a clan is rough work.

Established or brand new, it requires hours of time both online and offline making sure that everyone is taken care of, including the Imms. You have to be available for your players, provide and update documentation, keep plots moving, people entertained and all this while trying to have a good time.

I have been involved in a quite a few clans in my time and, contrary to AC's comments regarding an inabiliy to shape the world via pre-established clan characters, it is possible to make an impact upon the world with EITHER route.

The key to being a successful clan leader is forming a realistic and workable plan, setting it into motion and following through no matter how long it may take and how many obstacles are thrown in your way. The Imms aren't just going to read your email on 'Clan ChewyChomp's Desert Fortress of Power' and get to work creating it after you log and mail in a few hours of RP.

The Imms want the rewards to come as a result of hard work and a few risks along the way. They'll throw in a few bumps to see how well you handle the problems and give you a chance to make a good story. Some players see these blocks as "getting screwed" simply because they were hoping they'd rise to the height of power within a House/Clan simply by sitting in taverns for years on end - which does happen.

As a pro-active player, however, I have made several attempts to change and alter the world with my clans and the clans of the game.

Ironswords. The Ironswords are a documented dwarven clan that beseiged the city-state of Allanak for a game YEAR after freeing the southern slaves of the obsidian mines. Led by Thrain Ironsword, yours truly. It didn't just happen though. I didn't wake up and decide to do it.

Wish all Hey, going to attack Allanak tonight - load up about 100 dwarven NPC's if you could, thanks. I'll let you know when to attack.

That's not how it works. I built contacts, worked out relationships with clans, built my army and trained them. Worked hard to develop my character and my concept - gained support politically and physically. Then, when everything came to a head - we attacked.

It doesn't always work. Your PC can die smack dab in the middle and it all fizzles and dies.

I have also had success bringing life to a pre-existing clan, House Salarr, which (at the time) had a non-existant playerbase. I started a PC when he was 17 years old (Khann D'arden) and joined Salarr as a beginning merchant.

He ended up retiring at 55, head of almost all operations and probably being one of the largest world-players there's been because of it. Estates were built, plots were set in motion, clans were made to support the play a simple plan put into motion. It just takes dedication and hard work.

To give another, more recent, example - there has been an addition in the game (as noted in the Updates) that a northern branch of the T'zai-Byn has opened. This didn't simply come about because the Imms figured it was 'about time' or that it was a good idea.

Taking a leadership role, I made a plan that I thought made IC sense, was realistic and would be a fair challenge. Over the course of about 10 RL months, I made contacts, RP'd, handled political and physical challenges and finally, through many hours, days and months of hard work and planning, saw my goal achieved.

Would there have been a northern compound if I hadn't pushed forward with the idea and tried my best to make it happen, possibly. But this is exactly the 'kind' of result you can achieve in a pre-existing clan to make your mark and be remembered when all is said and done.

There is room to stretch in both categories, new and old. You can make your mark on the MUD in both catgeories and it follows the same path. Hard work, planning, goal setting and a little bit of luck.

More than my two cents, but hey - I've got a whole pocket full of change.

-LoD

Quote from: "LoD (Snarf)"I'll say it again, leading is rough work.

I figured some PC leaders (and their followers) could use some insight into just what goes on in the role of a leader. Now I am simply speaking from experience and certainly not implying that my way is the 'right way' or the 'best way' by any means, but it has worked for me.

It starts when you log on, every day.

From the moment you log on, You feel a foreign presence contact your mind. Someone always needs something: a few moments of your time, a decision about a job, a question about House policies, informing you one of your men is in jail, wanting to quit the House, wanting to get paid, asking to join up with the House.

And that's in the first 10 minutes. If you collect all of these requests and add them together, you've just committed yourself (if you're lucky) to about 30 mins - 1 hour of simply handling other people's tasks. This goes on all day long, so be ready for it. There's no way around it, that is your job as the leader of the clan - a slave to your people.

I know that many people think that all you do is sit around in taverns, yucking it up with clients or nobles or smoking spice in a back den somewhere, but it's all part and partial to the leading gig. People have no idea how much work it involves micro-managing a clan of players whom all want to have fun and need -you- to provide it for them. While most leaders don't mind, the general populace should be aware at how time consuming dealing with it can be.

Keeping your followers active.

One of the main things you must do to have a happy clan is keep them active. Now, this doesn't mean you have to have an RPT every single day and create large-scale plots and events. It just means that your people need to have a sense of direction and purpose. They can only stand guard at a gate or by your side for so many hours without losing their minds and wondering what the hell they are doing when their friends are telling them on ICQ how they just escaped a horde of gith and found a cool ass cave in the desert.

Keep your men busy. Use anything that you can to give them purpose and even make up small jobs that really don't mean anything. If there are 3-5 of them around, have them go outside and do something, anything. They don't need to know why it's important, you're the boss. Tell them that we need five gith skulls. That ought to keep them busy. Have them run to Red Storm and pick up a few jugs of spiced ale for a future meeting or to head north to Luir's to see what's going on of late and continue developing relations with their people.

It does seem like a lot, but it's why players play the game. They want to build a story and have a good time. Help them reach that goal. They may die, yes, but if you are a high-level leader in your clan, I highly doubt that you're going anywhere soon and fresh meat pop up all the time in their stock leggings, pack and torch waiting for work.

Reward your followers with praise and coin.

If you want to be a clan leader for long, you'd better learn how to keep players happy. That is one of the single most important things about being a leader - knowing what players want and giving them enough to stay with you.

The best system I came up with is to reward them whenever you see them and they complete a task, in addition to a monthly wage. You may have the set the wage low if you have a lot of employees, but the fact that they will receive money in their pocket that DAY instead of waiting for some kind of monthly salary will have them logging in much more frequently for a chance at some coin.

If your guards are with you when you travel somewhere to make a little 'sid with some sales, gives them a small cut. Buy them some drinks when you're in the tavern. Allow them some time to look for 'cool eq' when you're riding through a village or town they rarely get to see. Reward them when they do things well and, in return, they will begin to look for ways to serve you instead of waiting for you to tell them.

Provide them with a good set of policies and rules that empower them to do more than spar, spar, spar all day long. Give them a schedule of things to do and guidelines with which to do them so that you're both comfortable they won't run willy nilly into the sands to their death. If you don't set up these guidelines, people WILL die. They'll do it even if you DO set up good policies - I used to call it Kohmar disease when I played Khann.

I'd JUST finish buying armor, weapons, food, water and clothing for my new hire. Went over the rules and everything and the first thing they do when I'm not around is walk straight out the damn gate and die to krath-knows-what out in the desert. Wasted MY time and MY money. That happens over and over and over and over to -any- employer. Those of you whom are employees wanting to know why you may be paid so slowly - these are exactly the type of bad apples that make we leaders wary of handing out much at all.

The burden, and responsibility, of command.

You are responsible for EVERYTHING. If a player isn't have fun. Your fault. If an Imm hasn't made that special order yet, your fault. If your employee decided that it'd be fun to storm into the Trader's Inn and slaughter the single most powerful noble lord in all of the city because they were bored and thought it be 'k00l' - guess what? It's all your fault and you may be executed or punished because of the actions of another player you had NO CONTROL OVER.

This can be the single most frustrating thing about being a leader is the dreaded contact from a noble, templar or other such authority figure demanding you come speak with them about the actions of one of your employees. I know that ICly they want to bring the matter to your attention and ask why it has occurred. Someone's head has to roll. It should NOT be that of the employer, however, as they have about as much control over the players and their ultimate decisions as you have over what shirt they're wearing in RL.

In addition to this, you are responsible when people don't get paid because they log in at odd times or infrequently. You are responsible when they aren't having as much fun as they thought they would or when they get bored or when they can't figure out for themselves how to have a good time. You are always responsible and it hangs like a weight over your head to provide these things to people in your clan.

Setting goals and planning.

So, you've recruited a group of people. They train themselves and a few of them have actually managed to stay alive for more than 2 RL weeks and you want to actually use them now. As a leader, you need to take a look at your position and see what you want, and can, accomplish. Take a large long-term goal and chop it up into little sections, then set your men and yourself in motion on a timeline you'd like to see. Email the Imm Staff on your project and what you plan to do so they can jump in and help/hinder you along the way as they see fit within the confines of the game world.

Examples.

Goal: Free the dwarven slaves of the southern obsidian mines.

Step 1: Gather dwarves loyal to my cause. Train them. (ongoing)
Step 2: Establish a place of operations from which to train.
Step 3: Gather money to place bribes, hire men and get information.
Step 4: Case the mines, the guard rotations, the distance from the city.
Step 5: Meet with different nomadic tribes, asking for help.
Step 6: Meet with members of the target's enemies, asking for help.
Step 7: Meet with friends and neighbors, asking for help.
Step 8: Form a plan of attack that won't be reported to the enemy.
Step 9: Meet and gather the support of other dwarven tribes.
Step 10: Formalize the plan of attack and gather your forces.
Step 11: Set a date for the RPT, inform the Imm Staff.
Step 12: Let the RPT take its course.

Now, some of these steps may only take a few minutes while others will take RL months to handle properly. This will create a LOT of RP and direction toward a clan and its followers that gives it a drive and a reason for being. The men know the cause, they know what to do, they know why and the leader gives them the tasks they need to accomplish. You must also stay on top of everything and keep driven. Most importantly you must not DIE because if you do - almost all of your goals and planning fall apart as your employees die and leave the organization.

I could write all day about the trials and tribulations involved with being a clan leader, but I doubt anyone would want to spend the time.

Being a leader is DAMN hard work. You need to be online, attentive, diplomatic, considerate, understanding, firm, harsh, deceptive, manipulative, cunning, quick and fair all at the same time. It's not a job that anyone can do. Anything worthwhile takes time, so just put one foot in front of the other and keep things moving.

-LoD

PS - AC, thanks for clarifying your point. I probably will write something up regarding clan and OOC leadership on the MUD.

Here is a link to the original thread.

Bhagharva, this thread is not so much about players being bored in large, imm-run clans, but about a lack of something meaningful to do in those clans.  I, for example, had great fun in a clan I was recently in, and wasn't bored at all...but I still wanted something more out of it.  Working for a large, imm-run clan may be fun, but it is ultimately unsatisfying once you realize that nothing you do matters to that clan.  You can be a very productive employee, but you're still just a cog in the machine.  I believe recent efforts (over the past couple years) by the imms have impressed this on the clan-playing PC population.  Now, -I approve- of these efforts, even though they have taken some of the satisfaction out of playing in a IC'ly large clan.

QuoteIf you think working middle management is petty, go start your own business. Just don't expect the support you had in the clan.

I think you misunderstand what Quirk is saying.  He's not saying that he thinks working in middle management is petty.  He's saying "According to the way I've defined things, working in middle management -is- petty."  It's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact, according to his arguement and definitions.  If you disagree with this, you should debate his definitions, premeses, or logic.

By the way, why shouldn't independent-run clans expect immortal support?  Perhaps this is the direction in which Armageddon should be moving.  Maybe devoting one imm to running the independents isn't a bad idea.

I never tell my clan members to forget an idea, but I do give reasonable limitations in implementing the ideas. Noone has the authority in their  clan to go above limitations already put in place, but creatively, there are ways to work around them, and I have pointed many of these out to people many times when I am approached with ideas.

If you, as a player, -any- player, are discouraged by a challenge (and I am not the sort of immortal to handfeed my clan members, as any of my clan leaders can tell you. I believe if you want something done, then do it yourself, I'll help you, I'll support you, but within the framework that has been set in place for the clan) then it isn't that you're getting 'shot down'. It's that you're not taking the right approach.  But many times I, and other clan immortals are approached with ideas, and when the plan can't be implimented exactly as hoped for, we receive a throwing up of hands and saying 'Can't be my way, I give up!'.

People, nothing is ever going to turn out exactly like you want it. The game is made up of many players, both staff and not, and even staff have to curb their grandiose ideas to fit within the schema of the framework of the world. If an immortal gives you a challenge and says "Okay, you can do this but you can't do -that- to make it happen" then by gum, put a little thought and creativity into it. We aren't here to hold your hand and give you everything you ask for, but we -will- help to make your ideas a reality even if in some ways, the original idea must change. If you just give up half-way through, and start ranting about how the 'man' is getting you down because they won't let your 2 day old stonecrafter tear down Kadius from the inside, well.. it just makes us less inclined to go forward.

Making things happen is a two-way street. I've never had a problem, as a player, making things happen with my characters. It -is- the same pc's who make things happen over and over.

In my opinion, it is a question of initiative. Even if your idea gets 'shot down' and in my experience, I've never shot down an idea with an outright no. I always explain the reasoning and give alternatives, then you need to be prepared to rework. Adapt. Resubmit another idea. If you don't have the initiative to do this, if you can't work over realistic challenges, if you expect things to be handed to you, then I'm sorry.

The players who do get things done aren't imm pets. They aren't 'special' or 'different'. They simply have the drive, motivation and patience to see their ideas come to fruition and they are willing to work for them and comprimise to make sure it gets done. Nothing happens by sitting around complaining about how nothing ever happens.

Step 11: Set a date for the RPT, inform the Imm Staff.

And after all the work you've done, you get an e-mail:

Dear player:

So sorry, but you can't do that. Please come up with something else, and thanks for playing!

Love,
The Imm.

Quote from: "Bestatte"Step 11: Set a date for the RPT, inform the Imm Staff.

And after all the work you've done, you get an e-mail:

Dear player:

So sorry, but you can't do that. Please come up with something else, and thanks for playing!

Love,
The Imm.

If you'll notice, he said that he sent the entire plan to the imms at the beginning.  He kept them in the loop from the start.  I doubt they would have waited until the last minute to tell him if it wasn't feasible.

I think more people here agree then they realize, the problem is that people are arguing in parallel.

"Carrots are the best vegetable."
"No, apples are the best fruit."

The points people are making (as I see them) are:

Sanvean and Bhagharva both make the point that:
1)  The world is very hard to move and most large organization are relatively static, this is realistic.
2) You can move the world, it just takes a lot of effort.
3) There is stuff happening and there is conflict, it is just some times hidden from plain sight and/or on a higher level.
4) The world should remain for all practical purposes unmovable for the average Joe

Quark's points are:
1)  It is very hard for Joe recruit PC to get into conflict that is not 'petty'.
2)  This is because clans are set up to be nearly immovable.
3) There has to be another way.

I don't think there is any disagreement about Sanvean's and Bhagharva's points.  I think everyone agrees that those points are all very much true.  Further, I believe that most people don't want to see those things change.  I don't think anyone is advocating giving PCs unrealistic control over massive clans, nor giving PCs the ability to make large alteration to the world without great effort.  

If you agree with Sanvean and Bhagharva, I think you have bitten the hook of what I think is the crux of Quark's argument.  All of the above are true, but more importantly, it is boring.  Boring isn't even the right word, simply put, the game could be more fun and more dynamic.  

The basic argument is that more blatant clan conflict would result in more fun.  Conflict that is on a level more accessible to Joe recruit would be more interesting.  It isn't even suggesting that Joe recruit is going to win the conflict or even lead in the conflict, simply that he might actually participate in it and, perhaps more importantly, that the conflict would be apart of his life.

Right now, within clans as Joe recruit (or regular, sergeant, exc) conflict is not a major part of your day.  Conflict does not pervade every aspect of what your character does.  Quark can correct me if I am stuffing words into his mouth, but I believe that what he is saying is that, if you agree conflict is not a major part of most clanned character's life you agree with Quark's argument.

I think what people are reacting violently to is what Quark's argument implies.  I think most would agree that the life of the average clanned member is not filled with conflict.  It certainly happens from time to time when conflict does become the center of a character's life.  However, for the most part, as a Kuraci regular it is doubtful that you spend much time wondering what the Kadians are up to.  The implication of course to what Quark's argument is that conflict should be apart of a character's every day life and [/i] that there is a reasonable way to do it without breaking any of the points Sanvean and Bhagharva bring.

My pc might know how to go about it but I the player do not know exactly, it would've been nice if I could actually get a bit more help as a player to get me started.

I guess what I'm saying is...in an independant clan I'd know what I was working with the make things happen. In an imm run clan only the imm knows what they have at their disposal if your new to it and I was trying to find that out. I don't think I received enough information.

Quote from: "jhunter"

QuoteIt's that you're not taking the right approach. In
Lots of stuff *snip*

This should be handled by email.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Time for me to jump in.

Am I the only one who imagined him putting on a cape just to write that post?

Quirk is completely right in this, but the discussion has taken the wrong focus.  It doesn't matter if you, as a pc, can overthrow city states or turn yourself into a demon or corner the market on beer.  That's not the issue.  The issue is that there are no goals and the world is fairly static.

Most clans don't have goals.  Or at least, don't have goals which are clearly defined to the average grunt -- or even the average leader pc.  The result is that characters don't really have anything to strive for other than their own personal goals.

Think of the average noble guard.  His goals usually are something like:

1) Spar
2) Spar some more.
3) Guard your noble while he sits in a tavern a while.
4) Buy some cool armor from Salarr
5) Make pkill someone in an enemy clan.

His clan might have goals, but they are vaguely defined and he doesn't really have the authority to do anything.   Now, I know of this noble guard was played by a brilliant, couragous, experienced player they could come up with all sorts of things to strive for and know exactly how to do it.  But the average, or even experienced, player can't.  because it's hard.  It takes too high caliber a player to run a decent plot and there are rarely more than a handful of players capable of doing so.  

So as a result the average mediocre player either tries his best and comes up with something that's unrealistic/crazy/unimaginative or he gives up entirely and falls back on selfish self-advancement or even worse, gives up on the character all together.   My own last few characters have fallen into this same rut myself.

This is not the place for solutions, but I think everyone needs to recognize that it is a problem to be solved, and probably THE problem of the game right now.

And we shouldn't point fingers either.  The imms go to every length to try to give players stuff to do.  I've been in clans where imms have posted goals every single week (of which like 75% went unfufilled, heh).  It's more a structural problem with how clans are set up now.

Quote from: "da mitey warrior"But the average, or even experienced, player can't.  because it's hard.  It takes too high caliber a player to run a decent plot and there are rarely more than a handful of players capable of doing so.  

I want to avoid this sounding like an insult, your thoughts are well articulated. My gut reaction to this however is... Grow better, Become a higher caliber player. Just like failure results in skill improval in game, it also tends to be a teacher regarding plots. Those of us who drive our own plots in game typicaly fail on a regular basis. The difference, in my oppinion, is that when we get smacked two steps back, we do two steps to the side and start walking forward again.

Now, that being said. Low level grunts. You should not be feeling the conflict between houses. You should likely feel the tensions within your own house politics more than you do your houses tensions with other powers. Why? Because as a low level grunt your position is trusted about as much as we trust a bahamet not to charge. And if we are concerned you are a spy from X, Y, or Z, why the hell would we put our true face on anything?

Your boredom however, is my concern. I will admit, I feel a certain backlash to this statement. However, if players are not having fun within my clan(speaking as a pc clan leader), it spurs me to make some changes, kick it up a notch so to speak. Voice your concerns on your own clan boards, and do it avoiding terms like ... "Dudes, cant we go find steinal and pick up some uber-cool lewt."

Anyway, its far too early, and I've gotten far too little sleep.
Thanos

Something I learned only recently - which shows MY learning curve <cough>

If you see certain RPers getting into stellar RP, or people you know who are the "movers and shakers" of the game...

WATCH THEM! Learn from them. If there is some IC reason for you to interact with them, do so. If it is at -all- possible, ask their character questions. Ask their player questions if you have the OOC opportunity. Not about the plotline itself, since that's IC info. But about their techniques in creating these plotlines. What do they do to get things started? What do they do to keep things moving? What do they -not- do, and why not?

No amount of advice on the GDB is going to help if you can't see it happen in the game. No IMM saying that if I'm bored it's because I'm not willing to take up the gauntlet is going to show me HOW to take up the gauntlet. No list of suggestions from well-meaning players is going to teach me how to implement those suggestions.

Learning it THROUGH the RP itself..that one spark of an idea that didn't occur until you were lucky enough to meet that character who would spark it for you...that's where the learning occurs. That is where we learn HOW to make things happen.

To the player of the character who sparked that idea, thank you! I hope it turns into something awesome, and expect that even if it doesn't, I'll have a ton of fun in the process - because that spark gave me a tool I didn't know I had previously.

Quote from: "Thanos"

Quote from: "da mitey warrior"But the average, or even experienced, player can't.  because it's hard.  It takes too high caliber a player to run a decent plot and there are rarely more than a handful of players capable of doing so.  

I want to avoid this sounding like an insult, your thoughts are well articulated. My gut reaction to this however is... Grow better, Become a higher caliber player. Just like failure results in skill improval in game, it also tends to be a teacher regarding plots. Those of us who drive our own plots in game typicaly fail on a regular basis. The difference, in my oppinion, is that when we get smacked two steps back, we do two steps to the side and start walking forward again.

Now, that being said. Low level grunts. You should not be feeling the conflict between houses. You should likely feel the tensions within your own house politics more than you do your houses tensions with other powers. Why? Because as a low level grunt your position is trusted about as much as we trust a bahamet not to charge. And if we are concerned you are a spy from X, Y, or Z, why the hell would we put our true face on anything?

Your boredom however, is my concern. I will admit, I feel a certain backlash to this statement. However, if players are not having fun within my clan(speaking as a pc clan leader), it spurs me to make some changes, kick it up a notch so to speak. Voice your concerns on your own clan boards, and do it avoiding terms like ... "Dudes, cant we go find steinal and pick up some uber-cool lewt."

Anyway, its far too early, and I've gotten far too little sleep.
Thanos

Valid points. But a grunts boredom could easily be addressed without a letting them in on all the houses dealings. These goals could be given to the grunt by their leaders. But this again ties into the idea that there aren't enough (this may be the wrong word) logistical goals(?) for a house. For the most part, as jhunter stated, unless it's guarding a noble, or hanging in a tavern, being in a recruit, private, up to corporal in a house tends to be an exercise in hanging about and bullshitting with others. Which, as many have voiced, can be unsatisfactory.

My original instinct was to say deal with this by creating tangible conflict of interests between houses. Territorial disputes and such.

Now...I'm thinking, why not force the PCs in these mega houses to support the monopoly. For example, maybe each OC week introduce something tangible that *needs* to happen, by a set time in game. Maybe it's a caravan escort, maybe it's a trade deal with the blackwing...etc, etc.

I played in a house once with some absolutely top people, but hands down the best times were when something was handed down from the nobles (imms?) for the troops to accomplish.  Maybe the simple answer is that these just need to be more often and longer term?

2 cents. Again.

To those of you who say that low-level grunts shouldn't feel any of the tension between two Houses because they aren't trusted -- I posit that you are not being realistic.  Let me give an example.

During the Cold War, the tension varied between the United States and the Soviet Union, but it was always there.  However, the two countries never went to war themselves, always working through proxies -- but the possibility always existed for them to do so.

During this time, do you think that tension was not felt by individuals in the armed forces, diplomats, and spies?  If you were the guy sitting in the missile silo, the guy who is going to have to turn a key and vaporize 100,000 people, sure, almost every day you come in, you sit in the bunker for your shift, and then you go home, and nothing happens.  But there's always that possibility that something WILL happen, you WILL have to turn that key, and you WILL be partly responsible for the death of 100,000 people.

Likewise, if you're the guy sitting at Checkpoint Charlie, most of the time, you're just checking papers and waving cars through.  But there's always the possibility that one of these days, that guy on the other side of the border crossing is going to take out his assault rifle and gun you down.  Or that you are going to have to sit there and watch him cut down a family as they try to make a break through the checkpoint for West Berlin, and there's not going to be a damn thing you can do about it because they're still 3 feet from crossing the border.

If you're a diplomat and you get thrust into some negotiation with a friendly dictator who's having trouble with communist insurgents, you've always got to think about what the Soviet response to your maneuver is going to be.  What if they decide to escalate?  Can you take that chance?  Do you risk letting the dictator (who you may think is the most vile type of scum on the planet) get toppled, giving the enemy an ally right next door, or do you recommend that the US send him advanced equipment that might help (and risk that it might fall into enemy hands)?  If you aren't going to support the dictator, how the heck do you tell him that without him killing you (or turning to the enemy for help)?

In none of these situations does the person involved have any control over what the United States is really going to do -- they can't declare war on the Soviet Union, and even if they do something stupid, the worst it will probably cause is a bad diplomatic incident that will make the US lose face.  It's not going to cause the end of the free world, and they aren't going to singlehandedly topple the Soviet regime.  However, in each instance, they feel like they are part of something larger, because they know at least the vague aims of the West (and that aim is something more that self-perpetuation, which is what "make more money" is).  They all have personal goals -- that diplomat might want to run for political office later, for instance -- but there's other goals that they have been given by their superiors.  Secure the United States, halt Soviet expansion, keep the peace so we don't all die, keep an eye on the enemy....and all the time, in the back of their minds, the question of "what happens if I fail?"   "What happens if the shit DOES hit the fan?"  There's a visible opposition, a visible consequence.  Just because they are grunts, and just because the United States and the Soviets are not actually at war, does not mean they don't know SOMETHING is going on, or that there is a struggle occurring.

It's better to at least know THAT, than to train all day for no apparent reason.  Does the average grunt Kadius really know anything about even the vague aims of the House (as I said, "make more money" is not really a helpful goal, it's the business equivalent of "stay alive")?  In the case of Thrain's Ironswords, do you think he just went around finding dwarves and saying "hey, want to be in a big army?  We'll train all day to fight people!"  LoD can feel free to jump in here, but somehow I doubt that's what he told them.  I get the feeling it was something a little more inspirational.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough....I hope I've made SOME points in there somewhere....

If there are only three or four people that are actually managing to create plots and move the world, I can't imagine a more condenscending response than to say that its the fault of the overwhelming majority who are failing to do such.

But this post is not about that.  Not everybody can move the world, and we aren't asking for it to become easier.  Hell, if everybody could start their own clan or change the dynamics of a socio-political situation, then the game would probably suffer for it.

The post is about clan structure and the problems stemming from it.  Maybe we can't change the world, but we desire to change something.  Even if it is just finding enough food to allow your clan to survive for another few weeks.  Or hiring a skilled mercenary.  We don't want to make earth-shattering changes any more accessible, we just want conflict to take place at a level where it is both visible and moldable.

Yes ERS, I don't think that the criticisms of Quirk's thought are touching on the real issue here.  I would like to hear a more thoughtful negative response from those who are doing the criticising--because this thread shouldn't stop here, nothing's been resolved.

The same activity that seems petty in a large clan (e.g. gathering food, esp. if that clan has a cook), is anything -but- petty in a smaller clan (if you don't gather food, you'll die of starvation).  It's not the type of activity, but the meaning behind it.

I don't think resolutions are part of this thread.  Quirk's stated purpose in the opening post is to see if his clearly stated assertions are generally perceived to be an accurate assessment of the state of affairs.

I'm hesitant to reword what he already stated so clearly, but I will give it as fair a shot as I can, so that I can be corrected, and understand better.

1) The current large clan stucture of Armageddon is essentially static.  By their very nature and structure they are extremely difficult to change, and very difficult for any PC to leave any lasting impact on.
2) Being a member of a larger clan removes PCs from the harshness and the day to day struggle for survival which is a vital component of the experience of Zalanthas.
3) Large, essentially static clans usually limit quality RP opportunities much more than they provide them.  Leaders generally cannot make significant decisions regarding the direction of the clan and therefore cannot provide meaningful or interesting goals to their employees.  Rank and file members are simply too far removed from larger clan conflicts.
4) Members of large clans take an inappropriate interest in squashing smaller player-run groups, PKing over minor issues, and other oddities because of being otherwise limited in their choices of RP opportunities.

and some side issues.

5) Large clan play, high society, is currently too dominant a part of the game, and is exclusionary to many character concepts.
6) Armageddon, in general, is not as open to as it used to be for PCs to become wildly, improbably successful.

I really hope that is a fair restatement.

I agree with #1, #2 but don't necessarily see them as a problems that need to be solved.  

I disagree with #3 on a few points, and still think a creative player can do things that are wildly fun that could never have been accomplished without being part of one of these large clans.

I don't know about #4 or #5, or #6; I can't see the big-enough picture. Maybe problems.  Maybe needs adjustment.  Just don't know.


Seeker

Though it is quite exciting to change or be a part of the change, it is not always likely or reasonable. How likely is it that a janitor in some multi-million business will be involved in giant plotlines to take over the market? I do believe it is quite unlikely. In the same way, a lowly guard in Salarr may only be a pawn, and unless they survive long enough (which is hard) or prove themselves, they will never achieve any important position within the clan.

Petty goals? All people are selfish, first comes their own desires and then the desires of their respective clan. Do you think a pampered noble will give much thought as to the enrichment of his house's lands or power? Especially at the low ranking position they begin with?

The reason why imm acceptance is required to continue forth with plots is quite simple. The imms represent the higher ranking positions of any organization. Therefore, if your lowly noble wants to acomplish something, s/he cannot act without the permission of his/her superiors.

In response to Quirk's original post: if you think that an expanding business will be ignored by a monopoly .... you're not thinking realistically. The occasional independent merchant in the market may pose absolutely no threat, but an organization that expands to threaten the monopoly will be surely eliminated. I think if you expect to start from scratch and become a power-house you need to remember that things won't always flow smoothly for you. This is, afterall, a harsh world. You want more clan versus clan hostility. Isn't a monopoly crushing some business also a type of conflict?

Now this is definitely archive material... for the LoD quotes alone, and many more thoughts that I found interesting and helpful.

Quote from: "Dirr"In response to Quirk's original post: if you think that an expanding business will be ignored by a monopoly .... you're not thinking realistically. The occasional independent merchant in the market may pose absolutely no threat, but an organization that expands to threaten the monopoly will be surely eliminated. I think if you expect to start from scratch and become a power-house you need to remember that things won't always flow smoothly for you. This is, afterall, a harsh world. You want more clan versus clan hostility. Isn't a monopoly crushing some business also a type of conflict?

I would tend to disagree and offer up the Allanaki bazaar as a simple counter argument.  In the Bazaar you can find plenty of arms and armor that is not sold under Salarr.  You can find plenty mid range clothing not sold by Kadius.  You can find tons of desert gear not sold by Kurac.  The point of those merchant monopolies is not to crush everything in the same field.  It doesn't do any good and is not worth the time, money, and effort to do so.  If you spend all of your time and money assassinating and intimidating every single merchant in a city of a few hundred thousand, not only are you going to have militia pissed off for having your employees acting like the law, but you will have wasted large hunks of money fighting a pointless battle.

The monopoly the big houses hold is with the rich and powerful organizations.  Kadius does not give two shits of Joe commoner dirt sells a cotton shirt to Jan commoner dirt.  Salarr doesn't care if Joe dirt chips a knife out of obsidian and sells it.  So long as they are not selling bulk orders to large organizations, the big merchant houses are not likely to react with something as foolish (and expensive) as assassination, which I think is the point some people miss.  If as a merchant house member you think it is your duty to crush every single independent merchant who sells things that are technically in your houses monopoly, might I suggest burning down every single market and Bazaar in the known world.

I finally have to throw my support here somewhere...

Yes, the PCs of the different merchant clans getting all pissed off and assassinating every little indpendant is ridiculous.  Fucking get over it.

The problem, going back to Quirk's beef, however, is unsolvable by the players, and therein lies the problem.  Players have their own goals (defined as petty goals by Quirk) and there are House goals.  With no direction/feedback from the higher ups in the House, no PC will be able to accomplish the latter, but will be able to happily trundle along trying to accomplish the prior.

There needs to be more communication coming down from above for those things to chance, but the IMMs are busy people and do what they can.  I am not saying the general state of affairs is bad, but little things can change here and there...but it will take some effort.  If you think things need to change, make the effort to change it.  See what happens.

About independent merchants:

I would like to say that I agree that it would in theory make sense for merchant Houses to assassinate/intimidate their competition.  Who knows about the bazaar, it's possible that every two-bit weapons dealer there gives a portion of their profits to Salarr to avoid getting beat up.  I'm not sure you can use the bazaar as a counter-example.  

-But- I think there are other good reasons why the Houses wouldn't mess with the independents, at least not openly.  And that reason, in my opinion, is House Nenyuk.  Nenyuk would side very strongly with the independents because any sort of economic growth is good for Nenyuk, being the only bank in the world.  Nenyuk just wants to see growth, it doesn't care who has what market share of what product--it just wants more coins.  In fact, it would be better for Nenyuk if the market (for weapons, say) is divided up among many little independents--these people 1) have little to no power to resist "bank errors" in Nenyuk's favor, 2) have no place else to keep their money except in the bank.  In other words, whatever sid they own collectively is just about completely under Nenyuk's control.  This isn't quite as true for a Merchant or Noble House.  I believe that Nenyuk would want to see these Houses eliminated (yes, even the noble ones) , but of course that's a very long-term and not realistic goal.   :)

So, to sum up: I think independents should be harassed by the large Houses, but another House should step in to protect them.  I don't know how this would be role-played out in practice, but that's how I see things happening.

In response to the last few posts: In case there was some confusion about my last paragraph, I'd like to reword my ideas better, if possible. In fact, I wrote that the powerful houses will not go after the small independent merchants and traders found through and around the bazaars and markets. As truly, the may not be strong competition. While on the other hand, a small business that can rival and diminish the profits of the house may become a threat. Clearly, if a merchant house is murdering every merchant in their market, that would just be ridiculous.

I think that Rindan is correct about this. It doesn't make much sense that these enormous merchant houses would give two shits about some small company unless they begin to directly infringe upon their business by taking the large orders away from them.

A small clan numbering about twenty people or so...and a merchant house would actually take notice of them and considered them a threat?
How small do some of you picture these merchant houses?

It's like Wal-mart stepping in and crushing Little Podunk Joe's dollar store.

Completely ridiculous IMHO.

Quote from: "jhunter"It's like Wal-mart stepping in and crushing Little Podunk Joe's dollar store.

Odd that you should mention that as an example of a merchant not caring about the little guys.  It is well documented that the first thing that happens when Wal-Mart moves into a small town is they underprice all of the local competition out of business.

Right, they do it by beating them out because they are bigger and can afford to. This is what IMO, that a merchant house would do, rather than risk any trouble for their house by killing off the small independants.

It's not something that's targeted specifically at one group of the little people, but affects them all the same, they either adapt or go out of business.

I highly doubt that Wal-mart specifically targets one particular small business out of all of those out there.

You can't compare WalMart to merchant houses.  The houses make 95% of their money supplying wares to the noble houses, and the members of the militia/legion in BULK.  Selling to commoners and individuals is small potatoes, and anyone who starts in on their own craft will fall under the radar, because no individual or small group could supply a huge amount of supplies like a merchant house can.

My whole point is, a large business isn't going to pay much attention to a smaller business unless it grows to the point of being able to compete.

And yes, as I had already stated and I believe someone else said as well, most of the independants aren't going to deal in bulk anywhere near the size of business that the merchant houses are, if they did then I could see them catching the attention of the merchant houses...but not until then.


I've seen exactly the opposite happen in game and IMO, it's really unrealistic.

Does Cartier or Macy's send assassins after the guy selling $10 watches and home-made jewelery on the corner?

Does Victoria's Secret send thugs to beat up the owners of every little underwear boutique?

Does Microsoft try to drive every little Mom and Pop softwear start-up out of buisness?  

Well, you get the idea.  :roll:


AC

Quote from: "Angela Christine"Does Microsoft try to drive every little Mom and Pop softwear start-up out of buisness?

Don't ask silly questions....of course it does.

Sure, all of those examples (Macy's, Victoria's Secret, etc.) are true, but then again those companies don't have a state sanctioned monopoly like Salarr and Kadius do.  What do these monopolies mean if they can't crack down on people who break them?  I think that Kadius would want a portion of every moderately successful clothing maker's profits.

Now, I agree that killing them is rediculous...I'm thinking more along the lines of: "You join us, or pay us 20% of all your profits."  If they don't pay, then you might have to think about what to do next.  

Definately, how these monopolies function and how independents are able to still work and profit openly under them is yet to be fleshed out.

The power to accomplish goals lay squarely in your hands.

Because of this truth, the responsibility attached lay with you as well.  And if anyone has a problem with the way that a given clan operates, then it is my definite belief that you simply need to adapt your thinking.

Goals in Armageddon are VERY reachable, but like so many people have stated, they don't just happen overnight.  Nor can they be so far from the IC standard that it borders on downright silliness.  The problem is not that the goals cannot exist, but that more players (and perhaps Imms) do not take the time to develop, create and pursue them in the realistic and dedicated manner they warrant.

I hear so many people complain that guards having nothing to do,  soldiers having nothing to fight for, merchants have no care for commerce other than the big deals.  To those of you who offer no solutions, I say that you are simply part of the problem.  And that is fine - not everyone is meant to be a leader of men, a creative thinker, or a driver of plots.  Chiefs need Indians.

But I think your will has been so broken by a few failed attempts that you have either given up, or become jaded with the fact that there's no such thing as a 'free lunch'.  And perhaps some of you may say, 'I've tried.  I really have.  I did everything I could and still I floundered.'  And that may be the honest truth.  But it's a truth that you, yourself, need to examine and determine if the fault lay with the clan in question, or with your ability to make something happen.

We can't all do everything.  Let's say I want to be an Olympic athlete.  I can WANT to run fast all I want, but if I'm just not good enough and dedicated enough to do it, I'm not going to be showing up on your TV screen for any Olympic trials.

Clans -are- rigid because of their extensive game history, relations that have been forged and tested over the years.  They have a definite chain of command, the higher levels of which are difficult (sometimes near impossible) to attain and often controlled in whole or part by Immortal(s) in charge of said clan.  They are there, IMHO, to make sure that the clan is operated in congruence with the clan documentation and in a fashion seen fit by those NPC and VNPC entities that sit at the head of the table.

That being said, it is -not- impossible to change things with enough time, effort and planning involved.  Petty goals, Clan goals - any goals can be accomplished this way.  If you wanted to set a goal of 'I want to live forever' then you're going to have a LOT of work ahead of you, and I would place your likelihood of achieving the goal somewhere less than 1%.

That is why you need to set realistic goals, both for yourself and for your clan.  And here are some basic rules of thumb I use for setting them:

1. Involve people.  Create a goal that will include as many players from your own clan as possible and include steps that require both combat and non-combat roles.  Imms will support a goal more readily if it involves a lot of other players, even if it is only within one clan.

2. Draw inside the lines.  Create a goal within the guidelines of both the MUD and clan documentation which does not blatently go against their best wishes, common practices or established laws. (i.e. Coming up with a new style of mount for pulling wagons that grants your clan a special advantage in that field might be good whereas plotting to kill every family member in attempt to take over the operation would not be as good.)

3. Add to the game.  Create a goal that has an end goal that can be both appreciated by a wide variety of players and fill a NEED in the game.  Something that the game does not yet have, or needs more of.

4. Less work, better success. Create a goal that requires the least amount of Immortal intervention and work possible.  If it requires work that you can do in advance, then you do as much as humanly possible.  This will increase your chances of seeing it done.  I guarantee that an Imm will look much more closely at your proposal if it has been well thought out and designed ahead of time than if you are depending on them to do it all for you.  This would include writing up rooms, objects, NPC's, scripts, documentation, backgrounds, etc...

5. Plan to work, then work your plan.  This is not an overnight gig, or even something you should expect to happen in a RL month or two.  This might be something you need to commit to for several months or even years depending upon the outcome of your proposal.  There are going to be pitfalls, setbacks, challenges and problems that arise which many people see as Imms telling them 'no.'  My simple suggestion is not to accept that if you feel strongly enough about your actions and find another route to take.  There are many roads leading to the same city, so don't be discouraged when one is closed to you.  I mean, if your goal is trying to get home for Christmas and the highway you normally take is closed for repairs, do you just shrug and say, 'There's always next year.'?  No, you probably figure out another way to go about accomplishing your task.  The same can be done in Armageddon.

Clan goals can be formed and realized within the game we all play today.  The question is how badly do YOU want to see it happen.  There may need to be some growing up to do, learning, reading, planning, writing and other serious investments of your time as well as tests of your character to see if you really have it in you to accomplish these things.  They are no easy feat.

My challenge to YOU naysayers is to prove me wrong.  Follow each of the steps I have laid out before you and prove to me that you CANNOT accomplish your mission rather than WILL NOT.  I'd be more than welcome to offer any advice or suggestions to a goal you may have in mind for the game.  Nothing IC, of course, just a basic premise and how you may want to go about it.

I have formed four clans, beseiged a city-state, controlled an economic empire, created an entire branch of a major clan and done so within the confines of the game and by the rules set forth by the Immortals.  The last of these was done not more than a RL year ago, so it IS possible.

It was long ago that I took my first step toward accomplishing goals.

I invite you now to take that same step and see what you can create in this truly awesome and rich environment we call Armageddon.

-LoD

Well said Snarf.

LoD, I completely agree with nearly everything you say.  All your points are correct and you have outlined a path for people who want to lead and make a difference in the world.  However, I think that while you are completely correct, I think it is missing perhaps the more subtle implication of Quirk's original point.  Leading is hard.   It is not just hard in that it takes will, but it is hard in that it takes real OOC time.  To move as deep into the game as you suggest pretty much means forfeiting large hunks of your real life.  Some people can accomplish this, but most can not, not through lack of will, but simply because of lack of time.

The counter argument is that while there certainly is a way to accomplish a world filled with conflict, the very nature of the system demands too many resources from the players.  The barriers are so high that only a select few have the OOC resources to even make the attempt.  So, while the current system certainly works, a more reasonable system could potentially work better.  A structure that generates more conflict on its own and is less of a struggle to get things moving would be better.

Certainly, conflict and clan goals can be created in today's system, but why not at least explore ways to make conflict creation easier?  I think it would be naïve to assume that any system is the best it possibly could be.  Further, I think this is such a fundamentally important piece of the game that it is worthwhile to work towards making it better, more fluid, and more open.  Sure, one could devote time and energy to other parts of the game, and I imagine any part of the game you pick could improve upon in some way, but this piece of the game is so fundamental to everyone's enjoyment that I think it really deserves a look.

I think Quirk's point was, and again I might just be stuffing words in his mouth, is that there is room for improvement, and that is the first step to looking for a better way.  Understand that there is room for improvement and begin to identify the areas that are the most troubling.  I think this thread has done an excellent job identifying those areas.  I don't think there is any shame at taking the next step in kicking around ideas as to how to improve in the areas identified as most worthy of attention.  It isn't kicking down the current system as being bad, but acknowledging that it could be better.  I have had some excellent times in the current system, but I don't doubt for a second that there is room for improvement and that at least considering ways to improve upon it be a worthwhile use of time.

Edited to remove Star Trek references

I was reading one o my books on game architecture and design this morning on the way to work an found a quote I think is rather fitting this discussion....

"When men have a mission, they arrange matters to accomplish it.  Without one, they don't."

All that we peons are asking for is some slightly more specific goals than "make some money," and cut us in on some of the bigger plots in SOME way (hell, we don't even have to know that what we are doing is necessarily related).  Don't hide everything.  If I don't know something exists, and it isn't influencing my daily life in SOME way, even if it's just a small nagging fear or doubt at the back of my mind, it might as well not be happening.  Telling me there's all these great secrets doesn't sway me if they mean nothing.  I don't care if Jihae is actually made of green cheese if I'm never going to be able to fly there.

There needs to be something for those characters that are exceptional, that not everyone is going to get to do.  Ever.  And by exceptional, I don't mean the top 20% of characters, or 10% or 5%.  Maybe the top .5% but probably fewer than that.

To give an example, Sanvean stated she had seen what, 5 characters become elementals?  Over how many years?  How many players started a character with the potential to be one, and would have liked to become one, and how many actually did?  Not a lot.  In fact, an extremely small percentage.

That is the kind of percentage of people who get to have a powerful voice in a House, become an uber black robed templar, be the most powerful criminal in Allanak, etc.  Only characters that are truly exceptional ever get to do those things and the fact of the matter is that most players will never have one of those characters.  Sorry, deal.

The flip side is that it becomes an incredibly cool experience when you get to wield that kind of influence, in part because it is so extremely rare.  Some players, whether it be because they know the game better, have more time OOC'ly, are just a great damn RP'er, or whatever the reason is, are going to be more likely to get into those positions, and might get into several, might accomplish more with their characters.

I'd rather see people focus less on changing the system, which I personally enjoy, and focus more on how they can have that kind of character, if that is what they want.  Most players won't ever have much influence though, much like most VNPCs and NPCs don't have much influence.  Hmmm, go figure.

I'm at a loss why people repeatedly mistake the suggestions made here for something different altogether.

Acknowledging that the problem of most players feeling uninvolved in their clans, or that their clans do not seem to have clear goals visible to the lower rungs is in fact a problem is one thing. Suggesting that players should easily be able to derail these lumbering behemoth Houses is quite another; it's not one that's I've advocated nor most of those who've written on the problem.

Rindan is quite correct in assuming that my favoured solution would be to see more imm-led clans of smaller size that players can actually have a real effect on in a timescale that better fits with the average lifespan of a character. He's quite correct in everything but my name, actually. I didn't wish to see this thread blunder off into discussing the merits of different solutions, though, so I asked at the beginning that it remain focused on deciding the problem.

Joe Random Commoner should have good chances of entering a small-to-medium-sized group of merchants and in time rising to preside over their Red Storm operations, or opening a new shop in Tuluk, or whatever. The chances of him having a large impact on House Kadius should be negligible; no-one disputes that. As things are however, either Joe can have a minimal impact on a large House after many RL months of working at it, or start a player-run clan from scratch and attempt to build it into one of those small-to-medium-sized clans. Neither option leaves much room for Joe to engage in conflict outside of that orbiting his own personal goals, and conflict is the lifeblood of RP. Oh, player-run clans can indulge in such conflict, but usually, as most other organisations containing PCs are immensely larger in VNPC terms, they end up coming into conflict with a clan whose resources dwarf their own, and the conflict is short, bloody and brutal.

I don't wish to see the huge Houses done away with totally any more than I wish to see starting from scratch made harder. Those few who join them and gradually work up to making an impact are welcome to continue doing so. I would like to see a larger number of inbetween clans emerge, larger than player-run clans but smaller than the Houses, clans of the size of the Byn or Atrium.

I should write a lengthy post about now on possible solutions; unfortunately, life has been leaving me somewhat busy of late, and I'll have to fit it in when I have more time. For the moment, please be assured that I am not trying to make world-changing actions more easily attainable for PCs.

Quirk

Quote from: "Twilight"That is the kind of percentage of people who get to have a powerful voice in a House, become an uber black robed templar, be the most powerful criminal in Allanak, etc.  Only characters that are truly exceptional ever get to do those things and the fact of the matter is that most players will never have one of those characters.  Sorry, deal.

I think you are missing the original point.  The point was that it is a struggle to get to the conflict in the game for most characters.  True, those higher level characters are more exposed to conflict, but that doesn't immediately mean that the solution is for more players to be those high level players.  The solution isn't even to have more players pushed into leadership positions or positions of grand far sweeping power.  The original point of the thread was to point out that there is a lack of conflict in most character's lives.

Now, as to the actual solutions, they are many that could potentially be discussed.  Making the assumption that the only solution involves more PCs at the top of massive world altering organization is just a bad assumption.  For instance, the alternative could be to do the exact opposite and make character's lives MORE meaningless in the grand scheme of things.  If the entire game suddenly vanished so that the only place you could play was the 'rinth, as an elf, and no one could leave, I promise you that the conflict in the game would skyrocket, even though the collective will of the players couldn't do a single thing to really change the world.  I am not suggesting that as a solution, but it shows that the problem can be better solved without handing out a black robe to everyone who wants one.

Quote from: "Twilight"There needs to be something for those characters that are exceptional, that not everyone is going to get to do.  Ever.  And by exceptional, I don't mean the top 20% of characters, or 10% or 5%.  Maybe the top .5% but probably fewer than that.

The whole point of the thread isn't what you imply, it is that the rest of us want something too.

*sigh*

I hate to say I don't like seeing all the fuss back and forth, with folks feeling a personal affront, or the need to state things provocatively, or respond thusly....but I don't like seeing it.

Yeah, I have a small shred of common decency, no matter how hard I try to destroy it.  So here's my advice to folks who see the clan-view of ArmageddonMud as stagnant and impossible....to change or adapt to:

Stick around.

I've been addicted to this mud for twelve freakin' years of my life.  I've seen alot of shit go down, IC, and not a small bit of it was world-shaking and changing in some way.  And almost ALL of it was started by player characters.  Often those PCs weren't around to see the fruition of their plans of glory, but someone was....because players took the time, thought and effort to make plans that would stand the test of time....that would turn other players on so they would want to be involved and help to make it happen.  They built their better mousetrap in layers, not pieces, so that the plans they laid the foundation of were easier for other players and their PCs to grasp, and to build upon.  

Honestly, I can't count the number of plots and subplots I've seen succeed and grow because of all this.  All of them player created, player driven and player fulfilled.  Maybe not the same player throughout....but dammit, that's what a Master Plan is all about!  Something that will grow and have a life of its own....regardless of the outcome of a single PCs failed and miserable life (or that PC's player's failed and miserable life!).

I've been party to a few very long term and very successful plans, plots, what-ever you wanna call 'em.  Every single one of them succeeded and changed Zalanthas in some non-minor way.  Not because of the heroic feats of one lone individual PC, but because that lone PC with the brains was able to gather enough brawn around his or her operation to get the job done....regardless of what personally happened to the planner.

I've also seen just as many...if not more earth-quaking plans fall into ruin, virtually unnoticed and unheeded by the vast PC population of ArmageddonMud.  The difference between failure and success of each is part luck, part hard work, part excellent planning, and part willingness to change in order to fit the overall IC realism of Zalanthas.

What others have said before in this thread....on both sides...contain some excellent nuggets of wisdom.  However, alot of this thread has been repetitive bitching/slamming ad nauseum.

You wanna change the world?  First...ask yourself 'why'?  Is it because of something IC that you as a player consider wrong or lamentable?  Is it because you want to carve your name into the bedrock of Zalanthas?  Is it because you think you have a really cool idea and you want to see it in the game?  That's all well and good, but to be viable, a plan for a virtual world HAS to be realistic, and achievable and demonstrable and attractive TO THAT WORLD!

We all have these desires.  A successful plan for change is rooted in wishful desire, tempered by the flames of adversity and struggle, molded by time, blue-printed with pride AND humility...and a willingness to view a bigger picture and think inclusively, covered in fascinating garb or decor, and surrounded by the will and the work of others who are stirred by it to become part of it...to see it work.  Not just because we players...as humans in the real world....want to carve our name on the biggest tree in the forest...but because we want others to see that tree...bearing our mark...and collectively agree that it belongs in that forest.  That it isn't a mutant and should be cut down a few years after it was planted and epigraphed.  A successful such 'change the world plan' tree will have many others wanting to carve their names into it as well.  And dammit, Zalanthas will be a better virtual world for that tree having been in it!

Just some thoughts from a naughty monkey   :evil:

I suppose I am at a loss at why there is the feeling that either the creation of small groups, limitation of large groups and inclusion of Imms creating conflict is required at all by the players of Armageddon.  Every player is more than capable of creating small time conflict on a regular basis and has more than a good chance of seing reasonable goals realized.  I just don't understand this notion of dependence upon the Immortals for you to feel like you have some 'direction'.

The documentation has plenty of opportunity for you to 'choose' a direction and make it so.  We're not all school children standing in a yard waiting for Big Brother to pick us up and tell us what to do.  I would imagine that most of Armageddon's players consider themselves to be above the average in creativity, intelligence and education.  Why then is there such a problem with everyone not knowing what they are supposed to be doing?

Is it because everyone fears that the Imms will tear them assunder if they think for themselves and come up with a realistic plan?

Is it because people have had previous plans rejected and now feel like they are unable to do anything without Immortal assistance/approval?

I PREFER an environment where the Immortals assist with the player driven plots, and add to the atmosphere and the background, lending assistance and direction where needed if and when the plan may veer form what may be considered IC or in line with the will of the greater world.

I think that the players SHOULD have more control over what goes on, and over what they can do.  You want smaller groups to achieve reachable goals within the lifetime of your character, then consider you part of the Merchant House as a 'unit' or a division of which PC's represent the majority of its makeup.  When your PC's die off, do poorly or cause waves, then your division needs to set some goals and get some things done.  The HOUSE isn't poor, your division may just be poorly managed or poorly led.

The Byn is a perfect example of how I think other clans should view their PC's in relation to the greater whole.  You are part of a 'unit' that is associated with the clan, but does not by any means represent the WHOLE or even MAJORITY of the clan.   Merchants, guards, hunters, crafters can all work in a small group within the larger clan to achieve small goals within the larger scheme.  You just need a little creativity and the drive to get it going.

Of course there are exceptions where the goals of the House are not known to everyone or in the documentation, but there should be some givens and some basics that people can always assume are IC and part of the greater good.  If you have a question, email the Imm Staff and ask for a simple clarification on what they see your 'unit' or 'division' of the clan accomplishing.  I would also certainly advise making your own proposals based on this fact.

Players want more fun, so give it to them.  You don't need an Imm to tell you that you should go to location 'x' and bring back 'y' hides because we are going to try and put out a new line of armor next year.  Write up a proposal and give it a try.  Involve people, take the hunters and guards on your treks to find these goods, make it into something big that everyone can enjoy and take a part in.

The world is so customizeable in way of your direction that I simply cannot fathom not knowing what to do, or how to do it.  You can do anything, you just need to follow the appropriate measures and see it through.

So, to make a comment more directly related to Quirk's desire to see more imm-led small groups of players, I say that is already the case and that the fault is not on the shoulders of the game, the Imms or the structure, but in the players' own motivation and perception.

-LoD

Just some more rhetoric.

Why not just get into a house, then convince some of the people there that to make more money we should take over a portion of other houses business?  use assassins and warriors to stop any uprisings, and take over the market.  That would introduce conflict for sure, and with the many people needed, more people would get involved.

Q.E.D.

The problem is, when people try to do things like that they have to get permission from the higher ups, elders of the house. Every case I've ever heard of they were denied permission to take any such actions as they could cause trouble for the house...to me this shows no desire to grow further from any of them and is what causes the stagnation.

That wasn't my most insightful post.  Let me try again.

Quote from: "LoD Snarf"I suppose I am at a loss at why there is the feeling that either the creation of small groups, limitation of large groups and inclusion of Imms creating conflict is required at all by the players of Armageddon.  Every player is more than capable of creating small time conflict on a regular basis and has more than a good chance of seing reasonable goals realized.  I just don't understand this notion of dependence upon the Immortals for you to feel like you have some 'direction'.

I don't necessarily want to create small-time conflict, I just want that sort of conflict to be available.

I see the playerbase as a resource.  If they aren't involved in conflict that somehow affects me, then they are a resource that I can't make use of.  At this time, very little conflict affects me, no matter what type of character I play.  I have the idea that most conflict is out of the reach of most people.  Therefore, without proposing any solutions, I state that I consider there to be a problem.

When the T'zai Byn was trying to set up operations in Tuluk, I was in the T'zai Byn.  In fact I had two seperate characters in the T'zai Byn.  We killed some gortoks on the way to Tuluk once, in order to show how useful we could be to the Tuluki people, but that's all I saw of the plotline.  And we would have killed those gortoks anyway.

I was an Allanaki templar before Allanak was assaulted by Strange Forces from the rinth.  As far as my clan was concerned, the plotline only involved NPCs.  I was ordered to partake in something strange once, and I witnessed a strange occurance once.  I didn't know what the whole thing meant, and the NPCs involved refused to talk about it.  There was no direction I could progress in.  Involving my people in whatever was going on was right out.

When House Morlaine was trying to form, there was a time when I was Ysania's most senior employee.  She dealt with NPCs, I know that much.  She was involved in a lot of political stuff, all of which she refused to discuss with me.  There was a time when she told me that she needed metal.  I had a daring plan to get some, and it didn't even involve killing or stealing, but she would hear none of it.  All I did was what she asked me to do.  All she asked me to do was train her other people and get them bad-ass.

I was playing a wandering loner when I got enslaved by a supernatural entity.  That was pretty cool.  My mission got shot in the foot when it became necessary to find a player who never logged on, but it was cool for the brief time it lasted.  However, it was a plot far too ambitious to have much meaning to the tenuous lifespan of an unclanned wastelander.  If thats all I get for three years of playing time, then I don't think that it's enough.

Quote from: "Rindan"If the entire game suddenly vanished so that the only place you could play was the 'rinth, as an elf, and no one could leave, I promise you that the conflict in the game would skyrocket, even though the collective will of the players couldn't do a single thing to really change the world.  I am not suggesting that as a solution, but it shows that the problem can be better solved without handing out a black robe to everyone who wants one.

How can I disagree with this statement? The reality of it is so plainly clear to me. Small characters.. influencing next to nothing but their own lives, being thrown together in a harsh environment that promotes conflict, tension, and perhaps crude politics. Alliances and enemies would be formed, nameless communities would band together, fall apart... it sounds very appealing to me, and maybe even sounds appealing to some of you reading this message. It also sounds like a proposal (in my opinion) of what Armageddon -could- be, and maybe even what its original vision was. This is not to say that I feel Armageddon isn't the harshest, most intriguing RP MUD out there, but I do feel that it could benefit greatly from certain changes.

How many times have you jumped into an on-line game that you've never played before, checked out all the possible niches you'd be interested in exploring with your character, only to end up choosing one you thought you'd never take, drawn to it because very few players have ever tried that route to date? The idea of struggling to succeed at a profession that has of yet not made a great impact on the playerbase can be a tempting proposition for some. You would need to build a foundation to work your trade from, or whatever it is your profession is capable of marketing, be it death, coin, goods, information, entertainment, whatever..  it's a chance to be a pioneer and live day to day through successes and failures. Competition might need to be wiped out, you may need to hire people for specific purposes, to steal information, to kill people, to advertise, to harvest resources or to protect your interests. You'd be still such a tiny operation, but there are plenty of people out there who'd be excited to take part in something that has potential.. where OOCly and ICly those players (and characters) know that the "group" they're trying to make prosper depends a lot on their own successes and failures.

With that imagery in mind, let's stop and take a look at present-day Armageddon. Quirk made a list of all the crafts which are covered by major Houses as a monopoly. Fledgling starter groups are stamped out by the Houses for several different reasons, as Quirk has clearly outlined in previous messages. The Houses sit atop a mountain of VNPCs that are untouchable at the highest levels of power, and unseen at the lowest level of raw manpower. Players are asked to grasp the concept of thousands of VNPCs and recognize these virtual people are the reason their PC cannot advance very quickly or make huge gambles for power (potentially thrilling or clan-defining events for smaller PC driven groups). The final result is that House clan life (in my opinion based on these observations and play experience) can often be less interesting to the average low-ranking member than it might be in a smaller clan composed of individual PCs who each play a significant role in that clan's survival. Even PCs who die within a smaller clan are given a larger opportunity to pass on their legacies and memories to those who follow in their footsteps, as the clan retains a close-knit recollection of stories passed on from PC member to PC member, instead of 99.9% of every PC who's ever died in a House clan being forgotten shortly after death, their name becoming another one of the hundreds of thousands of dead clan members composed of VNPCs and PCs alike over the course of the game.

Nowhere have I seen Quirk petition that earth-shaking events should be more reachable to the average PC. Not once have I seen him state that you can't create a successful player-driven event in the game universe (thank you LoD for that extremely well-written guide to creating player-driven events). I feel Quirk's initial statement just serves as an arrow which points at the current clan structure of the game,  proposing that the current design -may- be having a negative impact on some aspects of the game.

There are a few people from the older days of Arm (ten years back or more) that believe there was "more happening" in the past, and I don't think this is an uncommon opinion. One of the interesting points of note is that back then, there were also a lot more player-formed groups and communities. I remember individual merchants making huge profits, living out of wagons, and I remember powerful individuals becoming leaders of large PC groups. It could be that as more and more Houses continued to pop into existence, things started to change. Or maybe not. It could be that everything is exactly the way it was before, and Quirk is imagining things, I'm imagining things, and every other person who agrees with us is imagining things due to the infamous failed experience or perhaps player laziness... or just bad luck. That's possible. But Quirk's proposal is addressing the possibility that there is a problem, and asking for opinions. So here's my opinion.

That last post wasn't meant to be anonymous.

Quote from: "Chodo"The problem is, when people try to do things like that they have to get permission from the higher ups, elders of the house. Every case I've ever heard of they were denied permission to take any such actions as they could cause trouble for the house...to me this shows no desire to grow further from any of them and is what causes the stagnation.

Gah!  Someone should assassinate those elders of the house then.  For the good of Arm.  Let's put all the blame of not much large scale conflict in the game on them, then start merchant house wars.  Kill the Elders!

I think one of the best designed clans in the game in the T'zai Byn, in many ways.   This is partly because of it's clerly defined goals (making money) and it's fairly small size.  When the clan has a goal (such as starting a new base) the whole player base is involved with it.

The byn's politics is't the super-elite-secret-that-no-one-knows-about variety, it's all out in the open and something that even the lowest runner (if he cares) knows about.  Whether it's byn vs blackmoon, byn vs northlands or byn vs the rinth, byn vs deserters or even unit vs unit, the whole pc side of the clan is involved.  Even if they arn't leaders, they are at least there and usually see the evidence of the conflict.

It's a whole different set up than most clans, where grunts do nothing for a long while, then one day your boss tells you "Oh, by the way, there's a war tommorow. Come with us."

Quote from: "Chodo"
The problem is, when people try to do things like that they have to get permission from the higher ups, elders of the house. Every case I've ever heard of they were denied permission to take any such actions as they could cause trouble for the house...to me this shows no desire to grow further from any of them and is what causes the stagnation.

Quote from: "Kade"Gah! Someone should assassinate those elders of the house then. For the good of Arm. Let's put all the blame of not much large scale conflict in the game on them, then start merchant house wars. Kill the Elders!

Firstly, I do not believe it is the purpose of any merchant or noble House to romp around killing the next.  Many of these organizations, while competing with one another, rely on the other's services.  Doing them in would be a very bad move.  That does not mean murder and assassinations cannot exist, nor does it mean conflict cannot exist without killing.

I simply cannot believe the staff will not support these sorts of activities whatsoever.  Not in a MUD where murder, corruption, and betrayal is the very foundation of what the game stands for.  Maybe your attempts to retaliate another party are halted by the staff because you haven't realized your House has very close ties with the other individual's.  Or maybe it's just that your approach is wrong.  If some clan imm told me flat out, "No you can't do that", I sure as shit am going to follow up and ask a) why can't I? and b) if I cannot do X then how about Y?  And I'm going to press the matter until I'm either able to do as I had planned or there are no alternatives and have to find a different goal.  But unless you've exhausted every avenue, don't immediately assume the staff simply do not want you to do ... whatever it is you're hoping to do.  I have to believe that, more often than not, it's simply the approach that is in question and not the action itself.

Actually, just to add to that... if you are playing a special role such as a family merchant, noble or templar, then you had better expect your actions to be watched with a shrewd eye and for many of your plans to be shot down.  That does not mean you cannot do anything at all but it's sort of like being a salesman where you have to get used to hearing the word 'No' more often than 'Yes'.  You gotta be persistant with that shit in order to accomplish what you've set out to do.

Could this thread be archived?  It's got a lot of good food for thought.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"
I've yet to meet a noble who's goals were anything but simply rising up in position in their clan.  The typical noble has no clue how to promote the interests of her house, from what I can tell.

The last time I tried playing a noble, I attempted to promote the interests of his house. It was the only particularly interesting thing about the role, but other PCs were not interested in participating.

Anyone else see a trend here? Players say we need change, staffers say we don't.

QuoteJoe Random Commoner should have good chances of entering a small-to-medium-sized group of merchants and in time rising to preside over their Red Storm operations, or opening a new shop in Tuluk, or whatever.

That's also a lot more work for the staff and players. It's easier to sit around, socializing mindlessly and spam-crafting on ocassion for no real benefits. Or, if you're a "noble's guard", sparring endlessly and strutting around in your armor.

The player of a noble or templar in either of my clans has unlimited potential to move up in rank, all the way to Senator or Red Robe if they do it in an IC-logical and reasonable fashion.

Most players are not willing to put in the IC years that it takes to gain such prestige and rank, but I can name at least two times in the past six months we've had someone on the very verge of an important promotion until they suddenly died or something else happened to stop it.  The players certainly never knew that it was about to, but it would have happened if not for circumstance.

QuoteAnyone else see a trend here? Players say we need change, staffers say we don't.

Just saw this, and wanted to...expound.  How many players see the big picture, really?  Do -any- of us have long-term, birds-eye view of things that happen in game?  Seriously.

QuoteI've yet to meet a noble who's goals were anything but simply rising up in position in their clan. The typical noble has no clue how to promote the interests of her house, from what I can tell.

Because...... they are egocentric? Yes, yes.... that's it - a very noble quality!

Dirr