Armageddon General Discussion Board

This is not a new topic after all.  I am sure this is mentioned many times, but I'm sick of seeing PK without emotes.

After all this is a -game-, which means there are people.. Real ones.. in front of computers, spending time roleplaying a character for hours, even days.

And this a RP game... it's mandatory to RP.... You are reading this because you love RP.  And If you are killing a player,  let it be a good death since death is not uncommon in Arm and your character will be death soon or later.  I don't know why people repeating commands many times, espicially using disarm.

> disarm;get sword
you deftly disarmed ...
you got the sword.

What the hell is this? both unrealistic, and does not make sense.  

or,

bash;bash;bash ....

I hate it... :x

Just to clarify, roleplaying doesn't equal emoting.

But emoting, at least by the Karma helpfile is nescessary in gaining our trust and also adds to the 'feeling' of the game. They liven things up, etc.

So while Im not saying that ever PKill has to have a flurry of emotes attached to it (as sometimes people become twinky and spam west when the opponent is emoting their dashingly wonderful charge at them) they are nice to see for everyone usually.

Did you emote while dying?

Quote> disarm;get sword
you deftly disarmed ...
you got the sword.

What the hell is this? both unrealistic, and does not make sense.

Why is this unrealistic and does not make sense?

Because...they have to have emotes to make it feel fair.  This is just a replay of a post about a month ago.  Read that one.

Quote from: "Armaddict"Because...they have to have emotes to make it feel fair.  This is just a replay of a post about a month ago.  Read that one.

Nothing is "fair". I don't think it's fair when I get bitched, but hell, it happens and -will- happen. Emoting in the death is not a requirement, it is a courtesy, afaik. A courtesy that should be more widely practiced, indeed, but a courtesy nonetheless...And also, it goes for the one being killed as well. Rp your slaughter, don't spam flee like a tregil with it's head cut off. That sours the death even worse.

I've been involved in the setup of an ambush...my pc at the time and a f
ew others talked another pc and emoted out our laying the trap, the plan being to jump out and attack...(the point of an ambush is to catch the victim completely off guard, for those that can't seem to understand that)

The attackers played out the setup of the ambush, one was to jump out first and the others to follow.
IMHO, Any excess emotes would be unrealistic as it gives the victim OOC info and it is supposed to be a complete surprise.
They jumped out, attacked and the victim just fled immediately and escaped.
Shortly after the player of the victim was posting on the GDB crying no rp on the attack...

The point is...you never really know whether or not it was rp'd out before hand, just because -you- weren't in on it and it very presumptious to jump on the board and begin complaining about others rp when the fact of the matter is...you don't know.

Eh, I would consider disarming someone and grabbing the weapons fairly cheap play, even though the code gives you penalties when picking up weapons. Especially when it's immediately after disarm it's lame. Constantly entering commands and doing nothing else is also fairly bad in my opinion. Even with the coded delays that are implemented, I still think it's quite easy to be spammy with the commands. It really is annoying when a character disarms time and time again ussually one right after the another as soon as possible. Same with bash, kick, or any combination of commands.

Emotes are at least partially necessary in my opinion. Not long emotes, not flowery emotes or anything. Just something that at least helps describe whats going on, and gives more then constant commands. No emotes? Well thats not alright, but it's certainly better if things are decently spaced out and not constantly spammed.

Creeper

I don't see anything wrong with disarming someone and picking up the weapon before they can grab it...as long as you emote some realistic representation of why they cannot get to their weapon...

Like kicking it across the ground away from them or stepping over the weapon and pressing your attacks to keep them away from it, something like that.

And who are you to say whats realistic for everything involved? If the other person RPs working to the sword are you going to drop it so they can get it or just give it to them? Most likely not.

Doing that and other things just leads to more spamming of commands and a degradation of RP. Like when sparring. If someone is constantly disarming, the other person is then forced to constantly get their weapon. It really ends up with alot of realistic cluttered crap.

Disarm their weapon, work around it with RP, pick it up later? No problem, but if you just disarm;get sword, most likely they are going to do the same thing in return. They are far more likely to do what ever they do to keep things equal.

I feel spamming, and various cheesy use of things is cheap, and is unfair on an OOC level, over all is bullshit. Leads to more bullshit. More complaining. May not be considered twinkery but it's certainly right on the line, and can very well create some unproper conduct. Over all it's pretty fucked up. Even if you don't emote or anything. Play realistically. It's hard to judge where the line is sometimes yes, but I think going on the side of screwing yourself over alittle bit to going all out and just using the code as much as possible is the better idea.

Get disarmed? Acctually RP getting your weapon back instead of just instantly sending 'get weapon'. Get bashed? Be realistic, take your time getting up. Same goes true for disarming, bash, kick when you are doing it yourself. Don't always just think that since there is a coded delay typing in a few commands at a time is good RP or anything.


Creeper is sure there are plenty of people that disagree, what does he say to them? "Who cares?"

Quote from: "jhunter"

QuoteAnd who are you to say whats realistic for everything involved?

And who are you to say it's not...hrmmm?

Hmm... Can I say... Hmm... Well... That's exactly my fucking point!

Quote from: "Myself"Disarm their weapon, work around it with RP, pick it up later? No problem ...

I would think it's obvious I'm not against picking up another weapon, if it's feasable, but just instantly doing things with no regard for what the fuck is going on is bullshit. Which is the same if you are disarm;get weapon or you are constantly just spamming commands.


Creeper is already done now.

Quote from: "jhunter"I don't see anything wrong with disarming someone and picking up the weapon before they can grab it...as long as you emote some realistic representation of why they cannot get to their weapon...

Like kicking it across the ground away from them or stepping over the weapon and pressing your attacks to keep them away from it, something like that.

I don't think you should emote doing something that the code can't rule on.

You want to kick a weapon away?  If you want to emote doing that, fine, but don't pick the weapon up.  Why can't they get the weapon later in the fight?  Why are you so certain that you automatically succeeded at what you're trying to do?

The "get" command cannot fail.  If you're a crappy warrior, or a skilled warrior, it will work the same for you.  Therefore the get command shouldn't be used to represent your actions in combat.

Quote from: "creeper386"And who are you to say whats realistic for everything involved?

Who are you to say what's realistic?

The problem is, everyone saying non-emoting kills is bad, is simply that not all victims are going to emote. Some are going to spam flee. Others are going to use every trick they can to avoid you killing them, and rightly so. But if the victim spams commands, how can you expect the killer to spam commands?

Now your going to say "but I'm not going to spam commands" prove it to the killer who has never tried to kill you before. And won't you? What if the killer is spamming commands? Are you still going to emote? Now as a victim, how do you know the killer is going to emote? So you too, automatically spam commands.

The staff have said that it's stupid to emote running away from a mekillalot when it's in the same room. I also think the same applies to PCs you can't trust. And basically, you don't know if you can trust a PC. That's why you put don't sleep in the Gaj anymore.

Right but IMO it should be much harder for an unarmed person to get past an armed opponent to get their weapon, it's not, by that same token it's too easy for them to just pick it right back up.

Quote from: "jhunter"Right but IMO it should be much harder for an unarmed person to get past an armed opponent to get their weapon, it's not, by that same token it's too easy for them to just pick it right back up.

We all know that there is a penalty to picking up an object while in combat.  And if you are unarmed, its going to hurt.

Is the issue here that people are spamming disarm and bash mindlessly without any sort of regard for RP?  This may be been discussed already, but it seems to me that this is a big no-no.  The following is taken from the karma helpfile:

Quoteskillmax:
   (i.e., repeat commands over and over again, with the intention
   of trying to raise your character's skill levels). Certainly, everyone
   practices skills to some degree, but how many people (even on a harsh
   world such as Zalanthas) blindly repeat things to the exclusion of sleep,
   food, and social interaction?

According to this, spamming battle commands without emotes is in direct breach of Armageddon policy.  It is horridly unrealistic that even a decently skilled fighter can constantly get himself in a position whereby he is able to take a swipe at his opponent's weapon.

QuoteI also think the same applies to PCs you can't trust. And basically, you don't know if you can trust a PC.

And what does this do, but create more distrust. Destroy RP. Create a bunch of crap. It's a huge cycle. I know unless I'm in a huge RPT where everything is lagging that my commands ussually come in late, I can find time to emote, or at least think and act alittle more realistically then spam commands, and it's still plenty possible not to lose that edge, or it doesn't always get you killed.

QuoteRight but IMO it should be much harder for an unarmed person to get past an armed opponent to get their weapon, it's not, by that same token it's too easy for them to just pick it right back up.

Well, lets see. So to make sure another person can't play unrealistically. You play unrealistically. It makes absolutely no fucking since. Oh, I think this dude might twink his way out of the death I'm going to give him so I'm going to twink out first to make it fair. No. It's still wrong, and shouldn't be done. It does nothing to help the situation, to help the RP, to help player trust, if anything, all it does is continue to hurt all of the above, as well as the MUD as a whole.


Creeper

Ok, let's put it this way. In all the time I've played, I've -never- seen anyone drop their weapon or be disarmed and -not- pick it up...some npc's are even coded to automaticallly pick a dropped weapon up.

QuoteQuote:
skillmax:
(i.e., repeat commands over and over again, with the intention
of trying to raise your character's skill levels). Certainly, everyone
practices skills to some degree, but how many people (even on a harsh
world such as Zalanthas) blindly repeat things to the exclusion of sleep,
food, and social interaction?

According to this, spamming battle commands without emotes is in direct breach of Armageddon policy. It is horridly unrealistic that even a decently skilled fighter can constantly get himself in a position whereby he is able to take a swipe at his opponent's weapon.

It does specifically say with the intent of trying to raise you character's skill levels.

QuoteOk, then I must figure out who will PK next without any roleplay.

Blah blah blah, Gilvar already answered that.

QuoteJust to clarify, roleplaying doesn't equal emoting

End quote, end thread, the only other comment that I think had any value here was whoever said, "If you had a problem with it, mail the mud"

Emotes are nice, they are the icing not the RP, period.
Rp is, Did the char attacking have a reason that was IC for doing so, Yes, great, then they roleplayed.

For the record, I emote during combat -when I have Time-, something that I don't always have the luxory of having, and if it is true life or death, I'm probly not going to just because at anytime somebody can flee (without emote normaly) And I might have to react to that, or other things.

Again, EMOTE is NOT Roleplay, staying true to your char IS roleplay and only the staff and the player know it.

The long-haired leather clad man gets off his soapbox and walks off with a gruff grunt.

Quote from: "jhunter"Ok, let's put it this way. In all the time I've played, I've -never- seen anyone drop their weapon or be disarmed and -not- pick it up...some npc's are even coded to automaticallly pick a dropped weapon up.

So?  When they pick your weapon up, you usually get a free attack against them, and you usually hit because they're one weapon short.  That's the point of the disarm skill.  Not picking up their weapon so they lose unless they have a spare.

I personally have been through all sorts of battles where weapons have been disarmed and have stayed on the ground for awhile, if not for the whole fight. Sometimes being replaced with a drawn weapon, sometimes not. It's how things work.

NPCs, are NPCs. They are coded to do alot of things automatically. They are also fairly restricted and unintelligent. We are talking about PCs here.

And I just want to make sure that you(jhunter) and other people, seem firm on the beleive that since it's done already, has been done in the past, meaning poor RP, spamming commands, just over all bullshit that could be done with, it makes it proper to continue doing it? Okay good. Just making sure you know that. Good thinking by the way.


Creeper

In a real fight -that- would be the point of disarming someone.
It's life or death.
Not just to get a free attack on them.

emote uses ^me elite combo street fighter skills and deflty knocks your elite weapon from your hands, grabbing it effortlessly from the air.

Quote from: "jhunter"In a real fight -that- would be the point of disarming someone.
It's life or death.
Not just to get a free attack on them.

That still doesn't address the inherent problems of picking up something while both your hands are full and you're busy parrying attacks.  Unless you're a psionicist who's using telekenesis to get the weapon from the ground, to your backpack, you can't pick it up.

QuoteThat still doesn't address the inherent problems of picking up something while both your hands are full and you're busy parrying attacks.

I agree. It'd be really nice if there was some code backing that up.

I agree someone fighting with two swords, can't emote picking it up with their hand unless they happen to have a third hand ;) They can however emote kicking it out of the way, but I personally don't think "get" should be used to show this.

So I agree. Someone who is fighting, and is wielding two swords, shouldn't be able to pick up something. People not fighting, on the other hand, should be able to, mainly because of the ability to emote out a variety of acceptable situations.

I personally think it's unrealistic that disarming someone only gives you a free attack when they go to pick it up.
Your not, (most likely) just going to stand there and let them pick it up are you?

Seriously...their weapon is lying on the ground...your swinging weapons at them trying to fucking kill them and they bend down and take their eyes off of you and pick up the weapon?
If it was real you'd better believe that I'm going to take their fucking head off if they do that.
If anything something should be changed so there's a chance that they can't get to the weapon while in combat or that noone can pick things up during combat.

Quote
Again, EMOTE is NOT Roleplay, staying true to your char IS roleplay and only the staff and the player know it.

How can we say that EMOTE is not ROLEPLAY. Emote is the main command for roleplay isn't it? Am I missing something here? If so, please warn me. I can change my style to a non-emoter so I can keep my roleplay well just staying in character without emotes.

So, if emote isn't the main tool of roleplay why we keep using it at all even in our daily sparrings? I am sure that all of us using "emote" to visualize our combat actions against other PC's, your partners. I guess during those sparring sessions we are learning how to deal with serious (can be deadly in some cases) combat with "emote". So, why don't use it while Pk'ing. We all trying to have fun here, nothing more. If you want to have fun and give fun to other Pc's, who you are about to kill, please use "emote" all the time. Don't spam (disarm;get sword) until you succed it. If you are willing to do that at least give a single line of emote, mentioning your action, that you are going to disarm or bash. Remember that you are not the only one out there and you are not figting with a mindless NPC, you are dealing with a PC and you are trying to kill him. Most of the time you can miss the lines while they are too fast, so give your opponent a chance to read that you are about to disarm. Also, at least, give another line of emote after you pick up that sword so that your oppenent might have a chance to see that.

I keep hearing that "what about the other side, will he emote accordingly?". Who cares that, we all supposed to emote and visualize things (Isn't the game about it?). So, do your best all the time even this is a case where your lovely PC is about to die.

Also, if you are not a sneaky assasin, don't expect to easily kill someother PC unless you setup a well organized trap.

Case1: Lets assume that you are not an assasin.
You draw your sword or whatever and move toward your victim and try to land a deadly blow. What happens next? Your victim can easily turn his back just because of the sound of your sword and armor, even your armored boots. Then your victim most probably have a chance to flee and just everyone of us, he tries to escape and flees. That is plain and simple. You are not a skilled assasin and don't know how to approach to your target, so don't expect to kill him, as I said unless you setup a trap. You are a warrior who are skilled in war. During wars, your opponent defends his ground untill he dies. This is something different.

Case2: Lets assume that you are an assasin.
First, you poison your sword. Then watch your victim and learn his life, where he goes and so on. Then find a good place to hide. And finally, stab your victim with your poisoned weapon. Again, assasins are for that, they can easily kill you if they are skilled enough, they are trained themself just for that reason.

Finally,
If a person is not using EMOTE then, in my opinion, he/she is not trying to add a thing to the world, means to me = No fun at all.

So from what your saying it's okay to flee without an emote but not attack without an emote?
I disagree completely, as someone else said emote does not equal roleplay it is a rp tool.
I do like to see emotes on both sides, in certain situations, like a surprise attack I don't see it as fitting to the situation.
Then again, I also disagree with people emoting while hidden, not because of the fact they are acting out what they are doing but because of the fact it gives players who's characters cannot see the hidden person OOC information they shouldn't have.
I personally, would rather -not- have any OOC info, if my character doesn't know it, I don't want to know.
I'd rather actually be just as surprised about an ambush as a player, as my character is, it gets me much more into the scenario and gets my blood pumping as well as putting me more in the state of mind that my character might be in.
In some situations I think emoting something is required to describe how something his happening, it others I think emoting can be excessive and ruin the mood of the scenario.

Oops, that last one was me. :oops:

Quote from: "Koala"I keep hearing that "what about the other side, will he emote accordingly?". Who cares that, we all supposed to emote and visualize things (Isn't the game about it?). So, do your best all the time even this is a case where your lovely PC is about to die.

For the same reason I'm not going to emote out running away from a mekillalot when it's in the same room, I won't emote out running away from a PC if I'm about to die.

If this makes a me a twink, too bad. But I'd rather live and be labelled a twink (even though I was roleplaying), then have my char killed because the PC isn't emoting and concentrating on killing me, while I'm concentrating on emoting instead of saving my skin.

NOTE: No mention of twinkish acts. Just talking about not emoting, which doesn't mean twinkish behaviour.

QuoteSeriously...their weapon is lying on the ground...your swinging weapons at them trying to fucking kill them and they bend down and take their eyes off of you and pick up the weapon?
If it was real you'd better believe that I'm going to take their fucking head off if they do that.
If anything something should be changed so there's a chance that they can't get to the weapon while in combat or that noone can pick things up during combat

Why can you pick your weapon back up and the opponent only gets one attack, simple, cause it is too damm easy to disarm somebody to begin with and only warriors have any defense against it, being able to pick up the weapon balances the pc disarm skill and specialy the npc disarm skill.
Careful or I'll start picking that skill apart, I mean, how in the hell do you disarm a cestus anyway? Hell, how does an elf disarm a mul who is holding his weapon with both hands...um, another thread someday maybe, back on track here. As far as there being a chance they can't get the weapon back in combat, there is, get disarmed by somebody with a very high skill sometime and you will find that out, specialy annoying if it goes up.

QuoteHow can we say that EMOTE is not ROLEPLAY. Emote is the main command for roleplay isn't it? Am I missing something here? If so, please warn me. I can change my style to a non-emoter so I can keep my roleplay well just staying in character without emotes.

It's not roleplay, don't make me dig up every staff post on the subject, There have been more emote/rp threads then probly any other type.

Now, why do we keep using it, many reasons, emotes are an RP Tool, they are not RP, just like every single command in the game is an RP tool.
Say is a RP tool, look is a RP tool, ETC ETC ETC. You emote for many reasons, to show things that your char is doing that code either does not say or does not say in an interesting enough manner, You emote to breath more LIFE into your char, other people's chars and the game world as a whole.

I've know chars that almost never emoted yet were dynamic in speech and deed, fun to be around, witty or depressed or angry they showed it through speech and dialoge, I've met others that said very little but emoted much, also adding much to the world, I've seen a very few that manage to combine both (Hackett) Most try for some combination and this variaty is what makes this game great. Me, I played a char that Never emoted or spoke in combat, to him this was a deadly serious business and he had no time for such things, some people might remember that dwarf. I had another more recent Who talked quite a bit in combat, I emoted with him quite a bit in combat, such was his charecter.

Neither type is wrong if that is who they are.

On a suprise attack, heh, with me, that is exactly what it is, I will not emote before hand, ever, hence the word SUPRISE attack, and I don't expect anybody else too, nor do I want them too.

I once had a dwarf who was attacked by an elf on the road, my only complaint on it was that the elf did not emote starting combat even though he was in full view on the road and knew it, anyway, the elf was pretty good, and so was my dwarf (the other char with me got owned quickly) But we had (IMO) A great battle nearly emote free all the way back to the city as the elf was running about fighting like an elf and the dwarf plodded along fighting like a dwarf, it was long, it was dusty, it was deadly, I loved it, it was realistic I could even see the dusty hard breathing battle in my head and only hope the elf's player had as much fun. Though I still don't understand why he attacked the inix.

Oh, and he was damm lucky that other elf ran in the path of that thrown knife.
:wink:

A few days ago X ambushed me.. It was real surprising that I couldn't react easily. then drew my weapons, emoted my a** out. In poor condition he escaped, then ran back to get his kank... He didn't emote so what? I'm a programmer for years and I type fast.. So is it illegal for him to run to my room, hitch, mount, run, n? No.. It's even realistic. I should be ready for his coming. (hit X readied) He was probably a slow typer, so in battle he could only throw a few fine emotes.
Sometimes the only problem is how fast you're typing. I can't say he RP'ed badly. He set a real good ambush. And noone would easily want to lose his/her kank just because he can't type that fast.
He may RP later.
....
I emote ONLY for my own amusement from now on. I will emote, because I can type fast. But please be respectful to the people who can't type fast, but still be the bad guy. You start emoting, don't flee before becoming 50% damaged and throwing a few emotes, he'll try to respond for sure.

Quote from: "Koala"

Quote
Again, EMOTE is NOT Roleplay, staying true to your char IS roleplay and only the staff and the player know it.

How can we say that EMOTE is not ROLEPLAY. Emote is the main command for roleplay isn't it? Am I missing something here? If so, please warn me. I can change my style to a non-emoter so I can keep my roleplay well just staying in character without emotes.

So, if emote isn't the main tool of roleplay why we keep using it at all even in our daily sparrings?

No one is implying that you needn't emote. However, emoting is not an acceptable substitute for staying in character. No matter how pretty your emotes are, it's not great rp unless the emotes are used to show the depth of character, not replace it.

What bothers me more than not emoting during PK is PKing without much of a reason. You walk outside, someone sees you, and thinks:

I'm a powerful warrior. He's outside the city. I am capable of killing him, therefore I should kill him.  :twisted:

Sometimes it's exciting, but I can remember being mobbed by guys who just sat outside the gates, waiting.

For a desert hunter, what is better prey? The scrab or beetle that you might get a hundred sid out of, and a nasty wound if your not lucky? Or is the desert hunter better served slaughtering the hapless wannabe hunter who rushes out throwing himself in harms way, who will likey have a nice stash of coins on him, as well as easily pawnable equipment. If you leave the safety of the city, you are meat. You are prey, for both the big nasties of the wild, and the PC hunters. On zalanthas, the most kindness from a stranger you should hope for is a quick death. So dont bitch when the big nasty warrior who can kill you, does kill you.

The world is savage.

Quote from: "Thanos"For a desert hunter, what is better prey? The scrab or beetle that you might get a hundred sid out of, and a nasty wound if your not lucky? Or is the desert hunter better served slaughtering the hapless wannabe hunter who rushes out throwing himself in harms way, who will likey have a nice stash of coins on him, as well as easily pawnable equipment. If you leave the safety of the city, you are meat. You are prey, for both the big nasties of the wild, and the PC hunters. On zalanthas, the most kindness from a stranger you should hope for is a quick death. So dont bitch when the big nasty warrior who can kill you, does kill you.

The world is savage.

The WORLD is savage, but the game is not about seeing how uber you can get your bank account from slaughtering PCs looking to get some rp going.

I've had quiet a few of my character's PKed by hack=n=slash mode PCs who offer nothing to your death; and I personally can't stand that.

I lost a PC to a raider a while back, and I finally had a raider death that left me smiling.

He came in and instead of hitting his f3 macro to dismount and attack, he struck up a conversation, talked about how the hunting was going, then asked if I needed water, He was kind enough to wait for me to emote turning my head to look before kicking my ass, and after a nice, lengthy battle that i was on the losing side of, I died with satisfaction.

So yes, the world is harsh, but that isn't an excuse for mindless slaughter of other PC's, ruining their experience, just because you wanted that glasshacker that could bring you a few ales worth in 'sid, and couldn't be assed to make it worth their while.

When you have a death that is satisfying, smile. When you do not, deal with it. So-called hack-n-slash PKers tend to last a very short amount of time in our enviroment. If the world does not end them, the Staff generally will.

I have said this before, and I will say it again. If I have time to emote, I will. If I do not, then I will not. If you need to die ICly for me to remain IC, then you will (or I'll die trying, at least), emotes or no emotes. But you better believe I've roleplayed it out at some point. For those on high, observation will inform them that it was IC.

No one is advocating not using emotes, by any stretch of the imagination. But for those of you who believe that emote is the end all of the game, you're dead wrong. Probably more than once, at that.

Quote from: "Hicksville Hoochie"
The WORLD is savage, but the game is not about seeing how uber you can get your bank account from slaughtering PCs looking to get some rp going.

I've had quiet a few of my character's PKed by hack=n=slash mode PCs who offer nothing to your death; and I personally can't stand that.

When it is my characters purpose to see to your death, it is not my responsability to make sure you enjoy that death. I have felt bad about all the work you put into that character being destroyed. But simply because I feel bad about it does not mean that im going to have my character act in a manner contradictory to his persona.

Now, I am curious. What was the point of capping WORLD in your post? Are you trying to say that the world is savage, but the PC's are not? Im not understanding your meaning there. Further, you need to stop and think what the purpose of your pc leaving the city is. If it is to make a living, then preying on whatever you can is fully IC. In fact, I would put forth that it is for OOC reasons that most players do not prey on one another in the wilds.

Thats just my two sids anyway.

Making someone enjoy the game is a kind of responsibility, I believe.. And of course also courtesy.  If you don't do that, I have nothing to do, but hope you are just making sole-RP.

Quote from: "Thanos"

Quote from: "Hicksville Hoochie"
The WORLD is savage, but the game is not about seeing how uber you can get your bank account from slaughtering PCs looking to get some rp going.

I've had quiet a few of my character's PKed by hack=n=slash mode PCs who offer nothing to your death; and I personally can't stand that.

When it is my characters purpose to see to your death, it is not my responsability to make sure you enjoy that death. I have felt bad about all the work you put into that character being destroyed. But simply because I feel bad about it does not mean that im going to have my character act in a manner contradictory to his persona.

Now, I am curious. What was the point of capping WORLD in your post? Are you trying to say that the world is savage, but the PC's are not? Im not understanding your meaning there. Further, you need to stop and think what the purpose of your pc leaving the city is. If it is to make a living, then preying on whatever you can is fully IC. In fact, I would put forth that it is for OOC reasons that most players do not prey on one another in the wilds.

Thats just my two sids anyway.

I meant to caps game too, but I'm dumb like that.  :D

I believe I may have seen it somewhere on the site, but I know for sure Sanvean has posted it before, but the quote, "Do not try to win Armageddon." comes to mind.

I'm not a pking player, I've never had it in me to be able to PK someone without it being self defense, or part of an ongoing plot. Matter of factly, I've killed only one PC through offensive means in 2 years of playing.

And when I did, it was chock full of roleplaying, I made sure the character had the enjoyment they seek when they log into the game.

I dunno though, please don't criticize me, because I can't consider myself a physical conflict adept player between PCs, but wouldn't it be best, even if you do hafta just charge and attack, to find a way to make sure they enjoy that crushing defeat that's gonna delay their gameplay for at least a day?

Use mercy, and when they've crumpled to their last hits, do a good emote like jerking their hair back and laughing, before slitting their throat, or something along those lines. the whole >hits you, hits you, BEEP - Mantis head!< just really makes a huge turnoff to playing combat characters  IMO lol.

I dunno, I probably am wrong, but it's more of an opinion on what I prefer in the game than anything.  :)

Well. If someone attacks me without at least an indication of what they are going to do via speech or emote I can accept that. I hope they can accept when I flee just as fast.

But what I don't like is when for example I emote to someone, threatening them but not typing kill sissy. And they just spam e,e,e,e,e,e. I would at least appreciate them turning around and running. But then again they don't know me so I can see them not trusting me. Also if the combat is already been initiated and one is chasing the oher. I don't expect much in the way of emotes. If you can emote, great. If not, its alright. Rp your wounds later and plot my death.

QuoteI emote to someone, threatening them but not typing kill sissy. And they just spam e,e,e,e,e,e. I would at least appreciate them turning around and running. But then again they don't know me so I can see them not trusting me.

The fact that you emoted should be enough to extend a little trust, I do at least, and happily, have not been burned on it yet.

Also, I'd like to say, that over all, in the last year, I have seen much improvement on people trusting others to rp things out, and when extending that trust to others I've only been dissapointed in 2 of the last probly 50 instances. A great improvement over just 12 months ago when it was exactly the opposite. So, Kudos to all of you who work hard at it.

QuoteUse mercy, and when they've crumpled to their last hits, do a good emote like jerking their hair back and laughing, before slitting their throat, or something along those lines. the whole >hits you, hits you, BEEP - Mantis head!< just really makes a huge turnoff to playing combat characters IMO lol

I agree there, and almost never have mercy off, That final killing blow is just to great a chance for at least one last cool emote for you and the other player to remember to pass up.

A couple of points.

Firstly, if you're delivering a surprise attack, you damn well ought to emote. Queuing a prepared emote with the command immediately after is trivial. You know you're going to attack, you've had plenty of time to think about your opening emote, and the extra time they have to react in on seeing the emote before the attack happens is in small fractions of a second. I knew a certain near-legendary d-elf who was a joy to see in combat, a veteran of more ambushes than any other PC I have ever met. He was not made less effective because he started each and every ambush with an emote.

When under attack, the time taken to type out an emote from scratch can mean the difference between life and death. Unless you knew the attack was coming, it's unlikely you can be prepared for it in advance. It's nice to emote, but I'm not overly upset if I attack someone and they don't emote.

Secondly, in an earlier post, someone spoke of having a character who never emoted or spoke in combat, because to him it was a deadly serious business. Not speaking is fine, but not emoting seems to me to be depriving yourself of the opportunity to present to others what a deadly serious business combat was to that character. From the grim determination of the character's face to the manner in which he fought, there would be a wide range of possible ways to bring the combat to life. I know when I find myself opposing someone who doesn't emote in combat, I don't think, "Gosh, he must take his fighting really seriously."

Quirk

To clarify, I don't claim no emotes are needed in combat. I'm just saying that we may forgive if some new player panicked and just fled. He's going to learn. My two steel coins, I would say, but one stolen.

QuoteFirstly, if you're delivering a surprise attack, you damn well ought to emote. Queuing a prepared emote with the command immediately after is trivial. You know you're going to attack, you've had plenty of time to think about your opening emote

None of those statements are always true, A suprise attack need not be well planned nor does it need to be from hiding, also, some of us do not que commands nor do all of us prepare them in advance, I don't, I don't have the e;kill elf^M set up ahead of time, I go the direction then type the command or emote, depending on if it is suprise or not, I'm perfectly willing to give that person the chance to out type me since I know he can't out type my client if I set things up ahead of time. And emoting a suprise attack ahead of time is silly (IMO) no matter how quickly it is done it still stops it from being a -suprise-. If I have time to see -anything- before the attack then I have time to react -before- the attack. Not that I would be able to codewise if you commands are queued, which tends to leave one feeling rather cheated since somebody stacked commands.

QuoteSecondly, in an earlier post, someone spoke of having a character who never emoted or spoke in combat, because to him it was a deadly serious business. Not speaking is fine, but not emoting seems to me to be depriving yourself of the opportunity to present to others what a deadly serious business combat was to that character. From the grim determination of the character's face to the manner in which he fought

I never said anything about emoting any other time, Emotes did happen in the setup and he never attempted a suprise attack, other then that the char was a machine in combat, I let the code speak for it during.

QuoteNot that I would be able to codewise if you commands are queued, which tends to leave one feeling rather cheated since somebody stacked commands.

Okay... So, lets say your characters playing some dumb person out in the wastes in an effort to get alittle closer to someone who looks like he has some things that'd benefit you. You get to chatting what not, you decide that it's worth the risk to attack him.

So, if you want it to be a surprise ... You just quickly type:

>draw weapon

>k dude

And that's cool because it's so much better then,

>emote Snatching his longdagger from his belt, @ lunges at you.;draw weapon

>k dude

Am I understanding you right? I'm sorry, but even if you stack the commands, or stack the emote draw and kill all together. I'd prefer that sort of surprise to something that has no emote to it at all. Either way, it's still going to be a surprise. You would feel cheated because they stacked commands which prevented you from reacting? Well most people I'm sure can type out the first bit with about the same chance of you reacting. It's much more a surprise, but it's an OOC surprise, like, huh, where the fuck did that come from and how the fuck does this dude think he was able to do it? Specially with varying circumstances like there is distance kepted between the two characters, other people, who knows what. I hardly think describing what your character does can be considered a big no no because it some how makes it less of a surprise.

But then of course, I'm also the sort of person that prefers to emote something though. Especially if I have things slightly planned out, which allows me to not only know the situation thats going on, but be able to predict a few different things IC and have a plan set up for that, but even if somethings just came up, and it's just as much a surprise to me as it's a surprise to the person I'm after ... Well ... If I can arrange, which it's almost always possible, I'll prefer to emote things out.

Command stacking if your able to do it in terms of throwing an emote out there with a command... I don't think it's a bad thing. Specially if you couldn't do that you'd just send out the command. Emote;command is always better then just command.


Creeper

Lets See, first, your example of what you prefer but what the person sees.

Snatching his dagger from his belt, the strange little man lunges for you.
The strange little man draws a dagger.

You easily dodge the strange little man's stab.

Now, the other way.

The strange little man draws a dagger


You easily dodge the strange little man's stab.

Now, on the second one, maybe a lunge emote between the draw and the attack, but the draw emot in the first one is redundant.

But even without the lunge emote it still works

Anyway, on this issue I find it is just personal pref, but that pref should be yours alone, don't complain when somebody has another perfectly legit way of doing something, I personaly dislike stacked commands, mostly because it has that stacked feeling to it, like an npc soldier is attacking you and also because it does confer a slight advantage in speed.
Plus, in combat though during I normaly throw out a few emotes, I'm a minimize combat spam and scroll kinda guy. The code handles most things just fine IMO.

Of course, this discussion offers light for the idea of imbedding commands.

e (moving swiftly over the rocky plains)

kill newbie (Moving low to the ground as he approachs you)

The killer has arrived from the east, moving swiftly over the rocky plains.

Moving low to the ground as he approachs you, the killer slashs you very hard on the foot.

Quote from: "Quirk"Secondly, in an earlier post, someone spoke of having a character who never emoted or spoke in combat, because to him it was a deadly serious business. Not speaking is fine, but not emoting seems to me to be depriving yourself of the opportunity to present to others what a deadly serious business combat was to that character. From the grim determination of the character's face to the manner in which he fought, there would be a wide range of possible ways to bring the combat to life. I know when I find myself opposing someone who doesn't emote in combat, I don't think, "Gosh, he must take his fighting really seriously."

I just want to point out that when it comes to the emote command, there is no situation in which RP would dictate that you not use it.  Do you want to make a quick attack from suprise?  You can emote that.  Do you want your character to speak in a boring, flat, monotonous voice?  That can be emoted as well.

How much you emote is a matter of preference.  It doesn't have anything to do with role-play.

QuoteDo you want to make a quick attack from suprise? You can emote that.

If that's someone's preference fine...for me personally it ruins the experience of it being a surprise attack against my pc.
No emote, just come out of hiding blades swinging...not only will my pc be surprised but so will I, further enhancing the experience for me.

Emote jumps out, all cool and evil and shit,weapons swinging.
k my pc
I'm like, "Oh look...they're surprise attacking me...*yawn* how nifty...blah...

It's like knowing what your getting for a gift beforehand...not as cool as being surprised by it.

Like I said, that's how I prefer to be on the recieving end of a surprise attack, for me it's more fun.

Other situations, when it's something slower and drawn out...sure I'm up for the fancy emoting and the tension buildup before the conclusion too.

I agree with Thanos's posts.  While that is not always how it is, as each individual has their own motivations, that is how your character should probably expect the world to work.

My only contribution to all this is that figuring out how well your character knows how to survive is something people should think about.  A character than knows quite a bit about it might flee as soon as attacked, putting all the player's knowledge on how to survive to work.  Others might sit there dumbfounded and be slain.  Most characters would fit in the middle I think, but from the boards I always get the impression than people think their characters should fall into the first category from day 1.

Try throwing out an emote or think to show some surprise!  Whether against a PC or NPC, take a little risk.  Don't assume that your character would always know how to survive.

Quote from: "jhunter"

QuoteDo you want to make a quick attack from suprise? You can emote that.

No emote, just come out of hiding blades swinging...not only will my pc be surprised but so will I, further enhancing the experience for me.

Emote jumps out, all cool and evil and shit,weapons swinging.
k my pc
I'm like, "Oh look...they're surprise attacking me...*yawn* how nifty...blah...

It's like knowing what your getting for a gift beforehand...not as cool as being surprised by it.

This seems rather an odd perspective to me. Are you really going to be much more surprised by the coded echo "You dodge the random attacker's stab" than "Suddenly, the random attacker leaps toward you, her dagger jerking upward toward your midriff!"? Provided there isn't much time lag between seeing the emote and entering combat, the surprise is surely every bit as present.

To clarify for X-D, I wasn't suggesting stacking commands on commands, but stacking emotes with commands. If you're entering for a surprise attack, the only thing that's making the combat itself any more interesting than if they were attacked by an aggro NPC is the flavour you add to it with emotes (and yes, this is ignoring the context of the combat for the moment). Opening with an emote sets the scene, and as you don't need to sacrifice combat efficiency to do so there is no good reason not to, IMO, if you had the time to prepare one.

Quirk

Quote from: "jhunter"If that's someone's preference fine...for me personally it ruins the experience of it being a surprise attack against my pc.
No emote, just come out of hiding blades swinging...not only will my pc be surprised but so will I, further enhancing the experience for me.

Your arguement is worthless because of how easy it is to use a macro or an alias to type in two commands at instant speed.

If you've initiated combat with somebody before they're done reading your emote, believe me, they shall be suprised.

QuoteTo clarify for X-D, I wasn't suggesting stacking commands on commands, but stacking emotes with commands. If you're entering for a surprise attack, the only thing that's making the combat itself any more interesting than if they were attacked by an aggro NPC is the flavour you add to it with emotes (and yes, this is ignoring the context of the combat for the moment). Opening with an emote sets the scene, and as you don't need to sacrifice combat efficiency to do so there is no good reason not to, IMO, if you had the time to prepare one.

Quirk

Nod, but still more a personal pref.

To tell you the truth though, I'd do it if it was a command embedded emote, something I would love to see.

I think it would drasticly reduce redundancy, you know, like these things you see all the time.
(emote)
The dirty bynner brings a bowl of stew to his face slurping noisily.
(command)
The dirty bynner eats part of a bowl of stew.
(emote)
The dirty bynner belches then slurps down more stew.
(command)
The dirty bynner eats part of a partially eaten bowl of stew.

Etc etc

Much nicer to see:
(command with embedded emote)
Bringing a bowl of stew up to his face and slurping noisily the dirty bynner eats part of a bowl of stew.

Which would be specialy handy on commands like Subdue, Kill, backstab, kick, sap,  disarm, bash and spellcasting, though might be hard to add to spellcasting.

I know it has come up before, but I really got to thinking about it at the last rpt in tuluk, and though people did a great job, such an ability probobly would have cut the redundant spam by at least a 3rd.

I know I would certainly use the hell out of it:)

Quotejhunter wrote:
If that's someone's preference fine...for me personally it ruins the experience of it being a surprise attack against my pc.
No emote, just come out of hiding blades swinging...not only will my pc be surprised but so will I, further enhancing the experience for me.


Your arguement is worthless because of how easy it is to use a macro or an alias to type in two commands at instant speed.

If you've initiated combat with somebody before they're done reading your emote, believe me, they shall be suprised.

It not an arguement, it's AS I SAID, my opinion and I'm entitled to it.
I think your comment about what I said being worthless borders on a flame...

I like Quirk's idea about being able to combine emotes with commands more.


Anyway, I'm sick of this thread...more of the same shit that gets rehashed over and over again...it's a waste of time and I'm done with it.

Peace.

Quote from: "X-D"I know it has come up before, but I really got to thinking about it at the last rpt in tuluk, and though people did a great job, such an ability probobly would have cut the redundant spam by at least a 3rd.

I know I would certainly use the hell out of it:)

As would I :) Maybe someone should idea it again ;)

Oops, that last one was mine.

I would heartily agree that commands like kill, eat, etc could mightily use an embedded emote. While it's quite possible to avoid redundant emotes, almost everyone comes out with them from time to time and this would cut down on that immensely.

On a side note, as most non-combat RPTs seem to consist of parties, eat particularly bugs me as a source of redundant spam. You find yourself with an item that takes something like half a dozen "eats" to polish off, not to mention any emotes, when an single "eatall" command or something that devoured it until it was gone or the character ceased feeling hungry would be both more convenient and easier on the screens of everyone nearby. If you could stick an emote on that, it would make me even happier.

Quirk

This whole RPing death stuff is interesting and I'd like to just illuminate one of the coolest things I ever had happen. I had a character who went outside of 'Nak to go hunting. Someone was tagging along who didn't exactly trust and was planning on double crossing out in the wastes anyway, when this other guy showed up. He drew out his weapon and told me to drop all my 'sid. I said, essentially, fuck off and drew my weapons and we went to town. The guy I was going to double cross beat me to the draw and started attacking me. They eventually knocked me unconcious and didn't kill me, though they could have, and robbed me blind. And since, at the time and now, you can still see 'Someone does...' when people emote as you're unconcious, they emoted out all the robbery stuff and the dragging. I woke up in the middle of the dunes at night and had to crawl to the gates. It was awesome, I ended up getting into a tavern and got killed by a templar for bleeding on his boots or something. It was THE best death ever. This happened years ago so  I think it's safe to post as a descriptor of what I wish death was ALWAYS like on Arm.

The first part of this strip (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030612) seems mildly relatable to the topic.

That is all.

- - Quite frankly, I don't think anyone has any business demanding a PK be role played in the slightest. The time you spend describing anything is the time your prospective victim could be screwing you over. If this were the real world, all of your actions would be perceived at the exact same time that they happenned. This isn't; the code requires you take time to describe something which would actually occur simultaneously with the action you are comitting.

- - Yes, it may spoil things for a killer to not bother limiting their character's reaction time by emoting. I don't doubt plenty of people enjoyed dying because they were bashed and couldn't type stand because they were in mid-emote. However, expecting other people to give themselves a battle-handicap to make you feel more comfortable is absurd.

- - If you choose to make a pkill a delight for another player, well more power to you. On the other hand, if you don't want a victim to escape or contact their allies, kill them as hard and spartan as possible. Emoting isn't role playing. That's why you use "emote" instead of "rp" to emote. Emoting is much like bright paint; excellent for highlights, but blinding people doesn't make you an artist.

- - On a side note, disarming someone and picking up their weapon is code abuse. If I saw someone do it, I would immediately fine them karma, followed by emailing an OL to request the player lose the DISARM command. Whether or not you recovered karma would be up to that OL. I would do this no matter how "logical" your emotes were. The only exception is if a) a reasonable amount of time had passed since you disarmed the victim or b) you had attacked the person in such a way that their position had changed (i.e. successful kick/bash).

- - Does disarm EVER flip the weapon into your hand or have a chance of you being hit by the disarmed weapon? NO. That means the weapon does not fly in your direction. That means the weapon is most likely closer to your victim than to you. Excuse my language, but how the hell do you justify grabbing something closer to another person than yourself? Even aggro NPCs with blatantly unfair abilities don't immegiately grab for a weapon they've disarmed from another person. In fact, I don't think most grab anything while in combat unless they are disarmed.

- - So in summary, my feeling is you should consider getting role play out of your killer the same way you should treat an IRS audit going your way. It is a wonderful change from what you expect or deserve. As for disarm, I love watching players killing one another, and I will immediately karma-slap anyone I see grab a disarmed weapon unrealistically. You have been warned.

Quote from: "Gesht"Quite frankly, I don't think anyone has any business demanding a PK be role played in the slightest.

[pendantic]I'm pretty sure you mean emote dangit[/pedantic] (hey, if Imms start using RP when they mean emote, more players are going to do it and new players are going to get confused. Yeah, everyone makes mistakes, hence the pendantic tags ;)).

Quote from: "Gesht"As for disarm, I love watching players killing one another, and I will immediately karma-slap anyone I see grab a disarmed weapon unrealistically. You have been warned.

While disturbing (your not delerak are you? :P), very cool :) I've seen disarm used a few times, and it is annoying to see most people "get weapon" all the time :)

Em puts on his flack jacket and wades into the fray.
[rant]
While I normaly like Gesht's posts and agree with most of the above, there is one point I have to take strong exeption to.

QuoteDoes disarm EVER flip the weapon into your hand or have a chance of you being hit by the disarmed weapon? NO. That means the weapon does not fly in your direction

Fact is, neither the code, nor the docs state in any way shape or form where or how that weapon leaves the wielder's hand unless it leaves the room, neither the players OR the staff have any way of knowing either.
The statement of the weapon NOT flying in your direction is -wrong- because -you- -do- -not- -know-, period.

Help file for disarm:

QuoteSKILL_DISARM  (Combat)  


This skill when successful will knock your character's opponent's weapon from his/her hands

Just because somebody failed to write into the code that a disarmed weapon possibly could hit somebody does not mean that it doesn't. If we have to go with exactly as the code states then there is only 2 types of kicks in the game, one being the much argued over roundhouse and you better damm well not emote anything different because the code says you did this.
Bah.

For the record though, I do think picking up somebody elses weapon after disarm is lame, but not abuse, if I was going to call anything abuse with disarm it would be the fact that The person who gets disarmed can pick up the weapon without the person who disarmed them getting the free attack, and it can be done Every Single Time. What is even bigger code abuse to me is when Somebody can disarm another combat class char with as much time played 2, 5, 10 times in a row just because the other char does not have the skill, and personaly, I think that is pure bullshit. There is no way in hell IRL that somebody is going to knock my weapon away more then once or twice before I learn to avoid it. But unfortunatly the code is not built that way, npc's can disarm BOTH your weapons without any lag at all and an elf warrier with just a few days of play can disarm a half-giant ranger with 100 days of play, though I wish somebody would explain how a puny and weak elf manages to knock a huge weapon from a creature strong enough to pick up a kank, what is he holding his massive two-handed maul in some dainty pinky out manner? Even more enjoyable is when a halfling knocks that maul a room (A Full Fucking League!) Away. Somebody explain that one too me, and don't say you play it as going into a bush or something, according to Gesht you have to follow what the code says and the code never said it did anything other then fly out of the room.
[/rant]

em holds his riot shield and backs out if the fray.

I still want to state one thing. Just because there is a chance that someone might abuse something, or twink out. Doesn't mean you should do the same, doesn't make it right if you do. Period. Just because there is a chance someone might do something doesn't mean you should be thinking OOCily, well I'm going to fuck everyone else because there is a chance they might do the same.

Thinking so is bullshit. Doing something bad before they do it to you in NO way makes it right. And I'll have to say, even if all the staff agrees with Gesht, I'M TERRIBLY SORRY that we have staff that think this way.


Creeper

Um, would you mind editing your post or something, I have no idea what:

QuoteAnd I'll have to say, even if all the staff agrees with Gesht, that we have staff that think this way, period.

means at all.

I'm going to try and summerize just to kill this discussion.  I want new topics.

Disarming is a school of techniques, not just one technique, just like dodging can include jumping, roll, turning, crouching and turning to one side.  There are plenty of ways to disarm, from those showy cartwheels which are used to plant a kick at the butt of the weapon to roundhouse kicks to simply hitting the fingers that hold the hilt.

People can only disarm you the same way once or twice, maybe more if you catch up slower (dumb or not a good combat-char), but I'd say that anyone with the disarm skill knows probably about seven ways to disarm somebody.

True, it is not possible to tell where the weapon flied to, but it will be more likely for the weapon to fly back or to the side from the disarmer.  Unless you snatch the weapon, but that's a steal thing that can't really be done during combat.  It is as fair to assume that the weapon flies closer to the disarm as it is fair to assume that the randomly echoed stone jug fell exactly on your attacker's head.

Halflings tossing mauls fifty miles away?  Might be a very strong halfling...but regardless, it could be a nice addition to have object weight affect that.  And it could be nice to have every room have its coded 'size', from chamberpots to taverns to arena stands to desert rooms.  Could be nice, I doubt it will happen anytime soon.  And while we're on that subject, it's also odd that a person in regular clothing and nothing very heavy can walk indefinately through and through a city without ever tiring, as long as he stops to drink and eat.  Though maybe strength should play a bigger part in disarming.

Who knows, it's a half-giant.  Maybe the halfling tricked it into throwing the maul away.

I think this:  It IS possible to pick up someone's weapon, but if you want to do it, think trade.  Disarm, put three emotes, let the other character respond.  If, from the reality presented in those emotes, it is logical for you to take the weapon?  Good for you.  If not, stay away.  Or you could just emote stepping on the blade while lashing at them with your telescopic, molten-steel whip.

And, last and also least...I do not think combat HAS to have emotes in it.  The occasional emote is fun, and I emote fully if I have nothing else to do at the time.  If I do...either I'll make aliased emotes or I'll leave my enemy to wonder about the emoting while I focus on staying alive.

Combat emotes are the work of angels, not everyone can concentrate/type/see the situation well enough.

Thank you.

That post does very little to kill off the topic.

Oh, where to start.

QuoteDisarming is a school of techniques, not just one technique, just like dodging can include jumping, roll, turning, crouching and turning to one side. There are plenty of ways to disarm, from those showy cartwheels which are used to plant a kick at the butt of the weapon to roundhouse kicks to simply hitting the fingers that hold the hilt.

I really wanted to reply to that with nothing but a rude laugh, but decided against it.
First, I think you watch too many movies, the showy cartwheel or attempt to kick at the hilt of a weapon is just a good way to lose a limb of get yourself dead, hitting the fingers, Anybody with more then a few hours of instruction and 20-30 hours of training knows very well how to make sure that does not happen, and that is with weapons that do -not- have guards, which most swords do, even in arm, making it very hard to hit the fingers of somebody who does not know what they are doing, let alone people who do. The "school of techniques" for disarming is actually very limited and VERY easy to defend against IRL as long as you know they are going to attempt it (and after they have done so one time, I'm pretty sure you know). And how do you explain a man with a sword disarming somebody useing a two-handed spear/staff/halbard? Something that is basicly impossible IRL, one has to somehow remove the grip of two hands that are tightly grasping the weapon, but with a sword, which does not have the reach to do so, nor does it have the mass to knock the weapon away by brute force (unless wielded by a mul of half-giant)

QuotePeople can only disarm you the same way once or twice, maybe more if you catch up slower (dumb or not a good combat-char), but I'd say that anyone with the disarm skill knows probably about seven ways to disarm somebody.

Who cares how many ways, the result that you are trying for is the same, and easy to guard against, IRL disarming is a "suprise" move that one attempts only when the time seems just right, and not something that you try over and over and over again, Why, because it gets you dead, if you succeed or fail the first time, after that the other person is on guard for the attempt, after the second or third try that person will have figured out where and when you leave yourself open when you make the attempt and will take advantage of it, Something I would LOVE to see in game, greater penalties for failed disarms.

QuoteTrue, it is not possible to tell where the weapon flied to, but it will be more likely for the weapon to fly back or to the side from the disarmer. Unless you snatch the weapon, but that's a steal thing that can't really be done during combat. It is as fair to assume that the weapon flies closer to the disarm as it is fair to assume that the randomly echoed stone jug fell exactly on your attacker's head

In my experiance that is completly untrue. I have stated before that I've been in the SCA for quite some time, and have a ton of combat under my belt there, I also belong to a local live steel combat group (yes, we use real swords, and not one of them is blunt or made of stainless steel) And I've NEVER been disarmed, though I have seen other people disarmed a few times, very few, and in none of those times has that weapon landed at either persons feet and was normaly a reasonable but equal distance away from both of them.

As for the halfling disarming the half-giant, your just being silly there right? I hope.

Also, your sort of missing the point I was trying to make on my other post. Which is simply there are a few hundred other commands in game that give specific echos on what is going on, yet we are allowed, even encouraged to decide for ourselves what has really happened and can emote to that point, If Gesht's opinion on the subject of disarm and picking up a weapon was official simply because the code does not state something, then we are all wrong and should do only as the coded echos say, for everything. So, all elves who have pack animals, You can no longer pack them or make them rest, because you must mount the animal to do so, the code states you mounted and that is something that an elf does not do, Everybody emoting strapping that shield  or sword or long spear to a backpack, stop it, the code states you placed it inside the pack, who cares how impossible it would be to stick a 5 foot item into a  foot tall item and close it, Code says you did, you did, No more changing ldesc to say you are simply leaning against something, code says you sat down. ETC ETC.
Get the point now?

I agree with all your other points though.

EDIT
And what about VNPC's, we get to ignore them too now, lots of places where they are not even in the room desc yet you are expected to assume they are there, or should I just typo/bug every city room where you can pick up a crim flag but has no vnpc's in the desc?

Quote from: "Gesht"On a side note, disarming someone and picking up their weapon is code abuse. If I saw someone do it, I would immediately fine them karma, followed by emailing an OL to request the player lose the DISARM command. Whether or not you recovered karma would be up to that OL. I would do this no matter how "logical" your emotes were. The only exception is if a) a reasonable amount of time had passed since you disarmed the victim or b) you had attacked the person in such a way that their position had changed (i.e. successful kick/bash).

You have got to be kidding me.  

If this is in any sense a unified staff position, I would fully expect the code to be updated.

*edit* Ah, you're talking about the aggressor.  Still, I think this is superfluous.

Firstly, there are (or were as recently as last year) NPCs who will disarm YOU and take your weapon, without emotes. These NPCs were not weaponless at the time.

Secondly, why not simply add a check in the code for picking up weapons during combat? One of your hands would have to be empty. Such messages could be displayed:

You circle towards a yellowed bone sword, but (current opponent) the yellow gith cuts you off.

You circle towards a yellowed bone sword, but (current opponent) the yellow gith cuts you off, slashing you hard as he gains an advantage.

You circle towards a yellowed bone sword, scooping it up deftly.

Thirdly, I came up with the idea of imbedded emotes, not Quirk.

And lastly, I still say that the code offers enough in the way of emotes during combat for you to not have to emote additionally. If you want to and you can, feel free. I usually do, but if I don't, I am not going to go through a box of Kleenex over it.

I think a "guard <fallen weapon>" would work. It'd just have to let you guard while in combat and checked against "gets". It'd add more in the way of technique. Do you kick the person? Bash the person? It'd have to make a high enough attack would make the person temporarily not be able to save against getting the sword. Or with bash having to turned off altogether.

Eh?  Why waste the keystrokes to 'guard' something instead of just grabbing it, or is this some innate ability?  Whose perspective are you addressing: the disarmer or -ee's?

Quote from: "Lazloth"Whose perspective are you addressing: the disarmer or -ee's?

I was saying for the disarmer to guard it, but I was looking at it from a disarmee's POV. If the disarmer just "gets" it then there is absolutely no way for me to get it back in combat. That's going too far in the opposite direction from auto-getting.

I know there are many people who play warriors and are not going to argue for nerfing thier beloved disarm skill.

But I argue it is the skill itself that is broke not the way people play, Sure, grabbing up that weapon right away and being able to do it without penalty is downright lame, but thats it, the code does nothing to prevent it.

Also, as I said, there is No way at all for a non-warrior to defend against it, 0 none, zilch. And through whatever oversights, there exist weapons in the game that are IMPOSSIBLE IRL to disarm except by removing the person's hand or taking several minutes to hold them down and cut or untie the straps, But these weapons are also easily disarmed and tossed about.
I've watched warriors walk into a room with 3 halflings and 6 disarms later the halflings were all without weapons, this is one warrior.

It's silly, halflings are not stupid, nor are they low agility, six times in a row, and not one of them was able to go gee, he might try and disarm me, I better try and do something about that, why, because like pc's they are without recourse.

On picking up the weapon being code abuse, Well, somebody remove the 8 different npc types I could name right off the top of my head (but not gonna cause it may be considered ic info) from the game, they abuse the code.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"
Secondly, why not simply add a check in the code for picking up weapons during combat? One of your hands would have to be empty.

Yes, 7DV got to it before I did.  I think this is a good solution.  Though it would be a good thing -all- the time.

Want to use "get"?  Have a hand free.  Better rp or rs first.

Yes, it would be hard to get used to.  But I think I would like it, in the end.

Morrolan

QuoteThe7DeadlyVenomz wrote:

Secondly, why not simply add a check in the code for picking up weapons during combat? One of your hands would have to be empty.  


Yes, 7DV got to it before I did. I think this is a good solution. Though it would be a good thing -all- the time.

Want to use "get"? Have a hand free. Better rp or rs first.

Yes, it would be hard to get used to. But I think I would like it, in the end.

Sounds good to me.

Quote from: "Morrolan"Want to use "get"?  Have a hand free.  Better rp or rs first.

I don't think this playerbase is quite ready for that.

People adjust.  The d.elf populace was up in arms while something was fairly recently 'balanced', no?

What was balanced on d-elves now?

Moves

They received a double bonus in the effect that they had endurance benefit (major moves) as WELL as better handling of harsh terrains (less move loss). It was unintended to my knowledge of them to receive both, so they lost the major moves and kept their benefit of better handling of rough terrains.

Heh. I just looked at it and the funny thing is... That happened like...A month before I finally made a D-elf. So I guess I never noticed the change.

Derailers!

Grin, well, I suppose it was rather unrealistic to have an elf with 321mv and reduced mv cost, but it was damm fun.

Quote from: "Lazloth"Derailers!

Yes, yes I am.  8)

Quote from: "John"I don't think this playerbase is quite ready for that.

I know I'm not, but I am excited to try.

I'm more worried about the pragmatic coding issues...like -every- freakin' item having to be marked as holdable with one or two hands by size/weight/etc.  That sounds like a lot of work and playtesting.

Plus...how do we craft items without workspace now, and if we have one, how do we prevent theives from taking things from that space (see HELP SKILL_SLIGHT_OF_HAND), and further, how do we report them as thieves with any effectiveness?

Morrolan

Quote from: "Morrolan"I'm more worried about the pragmatic coding issues...like -every- freakin' item having to be marked as holdable with one or two hands by size/weight/etc.  That sounds like a lot of work and playtesting.

Plus...how do we craft items without workspace now, and if we have one, how do we prevent theives from taking things from that space (see HELP SKILL_SLIGHT_OF_HAND), and further, how do we report them as thieves with any effectiveness?

I don't think anyone (outside of Gilvar maybe) is advocating eliminating generic inventory.  The idea is that if your hands are full [at least when in combat], you cannot get something.

For playability, it would need to be while in combat only.
Also making it a lot simpler to code.

Wouldn't have to be, but makes best sense.

Quote from: "Lazloth"I don't think anyone (outside of Gilvar maybe) is advocating eliminating generic inventory.  The idea is that if your hands are full [at least when in combat], you cannot get something.

Looking back, I see what you mean.  I like that idea as well.  It would balance out those <get weapon> moves that come out faster than I could recover from the <disarm> delay.  Still, sheath and draw might need delays as well...

:oops:

This had gone far beyound the scope of RP in PK.  There is another thread in CODE DISCUSSION we can take this up in, I suppose.  See ya over there.  
Morrolan

- - I apparently wasn't clear when I said "Quite frankly, I don't think anyone has any business demanding a PK be role played in the slightest."

- - This was because I assumed people would have read the original post in this thread. The original post called for interaction from a killer with his/her victim. I was saying the killer doesn't have to role play with the victim outside of trying to kill them. The entire rest of the post I made addressing pkilling was based around this idea, so any misinterpretation was the result of skimming. It's not a huge leap to realise what I meant by looking at the context of the entire rest of the pre-disarm post.

- - Second, in regards to what others have said, you're not supposed to assume that just because the code lets you do something that it is okay to do it. Yes, the disarm code is fairly ambiguous. People often take this ambiguity to mean they can assume whatever justifies what they do next. A maxed out thief, for example, could spamsteal from the same person 16 times in a row and not get caught. Since the code never tells you how you steal, we should all assume as the rest of the people claiming code ambiguity makes it okay to disarm and get. Being able to do it because the code lets you is a perfectly logical reason that you can do that, rather than being like mean old Gesht who's an embarassment to the staff and a sign the game is doomed.

- - The point is, the code is sometimes ambiguous, and the helpfiles are sometimes vague. However, physics are not. You knock the weapon from someone's hand. You have to be swinging in their direction to do this, which means the weapon is virtually always going to land further from you than them. The force of your attack will always be heading towards them, and as such the weapon will fall at an angle that is towards them (whether at their feet or to the side).

- - It is possible (in theory) to disarm someone by swinging towards yourself. Possible. Since you have no chance to impale yourself, slice your arm while grabbing the hilt from someone, or simply being wounded, it is not safe to assume that is happening. This is why I brought up the point about the code not having the potential to have you wounded by the disarmed weapon. You can choose not to understand this a second time if you want. It will have no impact on what I do.

- - In closing, disarming and getting a weapon is bad. Being a fast typist or using macros doesn't mean code abuse isn't code abuse. I don't care if you don't like me for preventing what we don't have a better coded solution to prevent. My job is to enforce good role playing, not achieve popularity.

Gesht, what about disarming, sheathing a weapon, emoting your actions and picking up the weapon?
That seems fairly reasonable to me?

- - Depends on how much time passed. Really, reviewing any situation is on a case-by-case basis. Someone could line up a macro that is triggered to do what you suggested the second a disarm success message was transmitted.

Someone -could- do the same thing except in the reverse, when they are disarmed...

- - Again, I said it would be a case-by-case basis. There are almost always some exceptions when the factors in a situation are human beings. Human beings sometimes pull something unforeseen. None-the-less, I am trying to think of an easy way to prevent this via code, without nerfing DISARM.

I like the idea that someone had earlier, not being able to pick up things during combat without a free hand.
I think...that this should be in combination with a delay after a successful disarm (for both of the combatants) before any commands may be entered by either.

My reasoning for this is...the person disarmed shouldn't just immediately be able to reach down and snatch it back up because someone is still swinging weapons on them...should take a moment of dodging around to get into position to retrieve it without getting killed when you do.

The one attacking is too busy hammering away a them to get change to do anything else, (sheath a weapon...get in position to get the other).

Just some ideas. *shrugs*

Quote from: "Gesht"- - It is possible (in theory) to disarm someone by swinging towards yourself. Possible. Since you have no chance to impale yourself, slice your arm while grabbing the hilt from someone, or simply being wounded, it is not safe to assume that is happening.

I was going to ask if people will wish up saying the weapon sliced them if they're going to emote the weapon being disarmed and falling towards them. But then I figured "how the heck could you disarm a weapon so it goes towards yourself" so I didn't say anything cause I couldn't (and can't, I'm just taking your word on it) imagine how it's possible.

It looks to me like some people have taken Gesht's post as he is only going to target disarmers who "get weapon." I interpretted Gesht's post as anyone who "gets weapon" when someone is disarmed unless he feels they do it in a realistic manner ;)

Hhhmm, My posts were only having to do with your comments on disarm Gesht, the rest I had agreed with, I found it and still find it disturbing that a member of staff (specialy one that I consider to be a huge asset to the game so far) Can have these views on the matter. -Aside- from the code -allowing- something, even in your second post:

QuoteThe point is, the code is sometimes ambiguous, and the helpfiles are sometimes vague. However, physics are not. You knock the weapon from someone's hand. You have to be swinging in their direction to do this, which means the weapon is virtually always going to land further from you than them. The force of your attack will always be heading towards them, and as such the weapon will fall at an angle that is towards them (whether at their feet or to the side

For lack of any more polite way to say it, the above is patently wrong, and your arguement goes both ways, just because the code does -not- say it went towards you in any manner does -not- mean it does not.
One needs to be familier with the actual mechanics of melee combat with swords/clubs/axes/flail/staff/polearms etc to understand this in a truly comprehensive form, a familiarity that 99% of people Do Not Have.

Fact is, if, you were to disarm somebody, the odds are pretty even on the weapon landing anywhere, even to the point of being near 100% random as to direction and distance, as a matter of distinct fact, the weapon is slightly -More- likley to land closer to the disarmer then the disarmee, and this does have to do with physics of inertia, swing and more. Add to it that melee combat is not static, it is not two people standing in place hacking at each other with swords, you move back and forth, circle, sidestep and cover a rather large area in a short aount of time, a weapon that may be 5' feet from you could be 10' 1 second later or 2'.

QuoteYou have to be swinging in their direction to do this, which means the weapon is virtually always going to land further from you than them. The force of your attack will always be heading towards them, and as such the weapon will fall at an angle that is towards them

This is wrong, unless the person is standing there holding his sword still for you to knock it away, But no, he is swinging it at -you-, so, -physics states that said weapon would head off on a tangent angle acording to force applied to change the direction and inertia, meaning the weapon would more likly end up behind and to the side of the -disarmer- not the disarmee. making it closer to the disarmer.

As for nerfing disarm, please do.

But even without doing so, adding a bit of code making it harder and more dangerous for somebody with both hands full to pick up a weapon during combat should be pretty darn easy, matter of fact, you want to do something to stop people from doing it, add a stumble fall/fumble weapon script for when somebody with both hands full tries to pick up a weapon in combat, realistic, easy to do, does not nerf the actual disarm skill.

Sorry, I'm coming into the discussion late.  Excuse me if anything I say has been covered already.

Quote from: "Thanos"For a desert hunter, what is better prey? The scrab or beetle that you might get a hundred sid out of, and a nasty wound if your not lucky? Or is the desert hunter better served slaughtering the hapless wannabe hunter who rushes out throwing himself in harms way, who will likey have a nice stash of coins on him, as well as easily pawnable equipment. If you leave the safety of the city, you are meat. You are prey, for both the big nasties of the wild, and the PC hunters. On zalanthas, the most kindness from a stranger you should hope for is a quick death. So dont bitch when the big nasty warrior who can kill you, does kill you.

The world is savage.

I agree with most of this, except why would anyone think an inexperienced hunter had a huge pile of sids?  ICly their lack of know-how and experience would rather suggest that they are poor and barely surviving from kill to kill.  It is only because you know OOCly that they are new characters, and probably have leftover newbie 'sid, that they look so appealing.

Quote from: "Gesht"- - Quite frankly, I don't think anyone has any business demanding a PK be role played in the slightest. The time you spend describing anything is the time your prospective victim could be screwing you over. If this were the real world, all of your actions would be perceived at the exact same time that they happenned. This isn't; the code requires you take time to describe something which would actually occur simultaneously with the action you are comitting.
{snip}
- - So in summary, my feeling is you should consider getting role play out of your killer the same way you should treat an IRS audit going your way. It is a wonderful change from what you expect or deserve.

Quote from: "Creeper"I still want to state one thing. Just because there is a chance that someone might abuse something, or twink out. Doesn't mean you should do the same, doesn't make it right if you do. Period. Just because there is a chance someone might do something doesn't mean you should be thinking OOCily, well I'm going to fuck everyone else because there is a chance they might do the same.

Thinking so is bullshit. Doing something bad before they do it to you in NO way makes it right. And I'll have to say, even if all the staff agrees with Gesht, I'M TERRIBLY SORRY that we have staff that think this way.

Much as it pains me to say so, I agree with Creeper.

Quote from: "Gesht"- - I apparently wasn't clear when I said "Quite frankly, I don't think anyone has any business demanding a PK be role played in the slightest."

- - This was because I assumed people would have read the original post in this thread. The original post called for interaction from a killer with his/her victim. I was saying the killer doesn't have to role play with the victim outside of trying to kill them. The entire rest of the post I made addressing pkilling was based around this idea, so any misinterpretation was the result of skimming. It's not a huge leap to realise what I meant by looking at the context of the entire rest of the pre-disarm post.

I still disagree with you.  I think that PK deserves to be roleplayed out, and YES even emoted, just like any other major event that happens in game.  I'm not of the opinion that lack of twinkage equals roleplay.  I just see this as the type of thing where roleplay will continue devolving until all we use are canned socials and coded commands.  I'd rather see a crackdown on victims who don't roleplay, rather than saying to the killers "well, the victims don't roleplay, so you're off the hook".

This is my personal opinion on all this.

> Emoting is optional.

> Role-playing is not optional.  Read help roleplay for its definition.

> Emoting is an excellent tool to help you role-play.

> Abuse is not allowed.

> If something is not abuse and is allowed by the code, it is allowed.

The reason this specific situation is tough is because you cannot tell if someone is role-playing well or not from a brief encounter.  Quality of role-play is how well someone is playing their role.  Did they attack you for OOC fun?  Did they attack you because they're a bandit or assassin?  The bad news is, you really have no idea, since you only know one tiny slice of the story.  It is unfair to judge somebody's quality of role-play based when you know only a piece of the story.  Maybe they are a an extremely well fleshed-out character, and attacking you was completely in character.  In fact, I think one would be best off assuming that this is the case.

You can say a death is better if someone emotes a lot while killing you.  Its true.  Unfortunetely, some people are using think instead.  Some people are nervous and can't think up emotes well under pressure.  Some people are typing kill first, since its completely reasonable to, and hoping to emote later if they get the chanse.  Some people fell of of their chairs.  Some people went braindead and can't come up with anything to contribute at that moment.  Some people do not enjoy emoting about the details of combat and are letting the code do it, or are keeping their buffer open for other commands.  We all love emotes!  We encourage emotes.  But, failure to emote is not a sin in and of itself.

If you see someone who is abusive, aka picking up items with their hands full or spamming commands, you should email mud and we'll investigate.  Keep in mind it could be a typo or mistake.  If somebody isn't doing anything wrong, they aren't doing anything wrong.  If we (staff) find out that somebody is being abusive, we deal with it.



Also, please keep in mind that when staff members post, it is generally to state their opinions.  Any staff member post that is meant to clarify official policy will say so specifically.  Sometimes staff members have differences in opinion as well.  For example, I don't agree with Gesht about the physics of the disarm skill being unambiguous.  My personal belief on that is that the situation is ambiguous, and if you are not being abusive (like when picking things up with a hand you do not have) then it is fine.  You are not performing a blasphemy by disagreeing with one of us in a matter of opinion, so rest at ease.

I know that when a staff member posts it does seem to carry some kind of special weight, but always remember that opinions are opinions, and this is a discussion board, and we, too, are here to discuss.

Quote from: "Raesanos"I know that when a staff member posts it does seem to carry some kind of special weight, but always remember that opinions are opinions, and this is a discussion board, and we, too, are here to discuss.

The reason some of us see that extra weight and are scared to discuss something with staff is because we aren't use to the staff posting on the GDB except to rule on things and put the final word in. But lately the staff have been debating with us, which I think is a good thing. But also takes some time to get use too ;)

For myself, I know that unless stated as official, and normaly by a Highlord or an Overlord, staff comments are generaly held as opinion of that person or view on something, but the post was not written that way, as a matter of fact it was FAR from it, at least on that point.

QuoteOn a side note, disarming someone and picking up their weapon is code abuse. If I saw someone do it, I would immediately fine them karma, followed by emailing an OL to request the player lose the DISARM command. Whether or not you recovered karma would be up to that OL. I would do this no matter how "logical" your emotes were

At no time did the statement even hint at being opinion, and even worse, stated no warning would be given that this person would be karmicly bitch slapped hard and a skill command removed if at all possible, Then combined with the "I would do this no matter how "logical" your emotes were" section means that we are NOT allowed to rp what happens if it is at odds with coded message or the code does not give a message, which goes against 99% of the RP and emotes in the game for the last 12 years.

As I said, even IF it was opinion, I found it a very disturbing thing for a staff member to say or do, doing something like that to a player and in that manner could easily turn an otherwise good player into a Delerak.

Merely as a matter of note, an not uncommon tactic in the heyday of the rapier was to trap the opponent's somewhat dull blade with either a specially designed dagger or with a gauntleted hand, with the aim of either immobilising them long enough to deliver a thrust or forcing them to release their weapon to prevent being so attacked. Another technique designed more specifically for disarming was for the disarmer at close quarters to drop the dagger, if they had one in their off hand, and reach forward to wrest their opponent's rapier away by the hilt. Both of those techniques could result not merely in the weapon being disarmed, but coming into the disarmer's hand; both carried significant risk of failure. With the rapier itself as opposed to lighter modern sport weaponry such as the epee, the default grip taken tended to be too strong for the weapon to be easily knocked out of an opponent's hand by a strike, and I would suspect that the majority of weapons prior to it would also have grips that tended to resist such impacts, particularly with slashing or chopping weapons.

The current ease of use of the disarm skill does seem oddly out of sorts with actual melee combat however, particularly as a number of the historical means of disarming people required having a hand free to wrest the weapon from the opponent's grip and would be impractical with either shield and sword or two weapons.

Quirk

Quote from: "X-D"As I said, even IF it was opinion, I found it a very disturbing thing for a staff member to say or do, doing something like that to a player and in that manner could easily turn an otherwise good player into a Delerak.

Agreed.

Delerak is now an adjective?
Very cool.   :D

- - It seems no one reads these days. Yes, I said that, no matter how "logical" the emotes that came between the disarming and the getting of the weapon, I'd still act in the same manner. However, in the very next sentence I clarified that time and position were the only things of importance to me. I repeated this point in later posts, going so far as to point out those "logical" emotes could be part of a prewritten macro. Twelve seconds worth of action could be emoted in less than one second, giving someone an OOC edge over another player not using triggers. Why should logical emotes be more important than the actual passage of time?

- - Considering that I've emphasized time being important, not only in my original post, but in following posts, the only reason to keep quoting me out of context is because you don't like my message. I don't believe using technology so that you have superhuman action or reaction speed is good role playing. Of course, I doubt this will be acknowledged, and someone will requote what I said about emotes. After all, what's wrong with performing forty seconds of actions in one second, thanks to the magic of macros?

- - The post I orginally replied to refered to someone typing "disarm;get" weapon. Again, this is where context comes into play. Most people who disarm someone and get their weapon would probably never hear a negative word from me. People who spam commands like that, or use macros, would.



- - In regards to what was said about disarmed weapons...

QuoteFact is, if, you were to disarm somebody, the odds are pretty even on the weapon landing anywhere, even to the point of being near 100% random as to direction and distance, as a matter of distinct fact, the weapon is slightly -More- likley to land closer to the disarmer then the disarmee, and this does have to do with physics of inertia, swing and more.

- - You provided absolutely no evidence to support any of these points. Stating them as if they were facts doesn't make them facts.

QuoteThis is wrong, unless the person is standing there holding his sword still for you to knock it away, But no, he is swinging it at -you-, so, -physics states that said weapon would head off on a tangent angle acording to force applied to change the direction and inertia, meaning the weapon would more likly end up behind and to the side of the -disarmer- not the disarmee. making it closer to the disarmer.

- - Yes, they are swinging at you. The weapon has inertia from their swing, heading in your direction. Then you swing at them to disarm them. Now inertia is heading in their direction. If you disarmed an opponent with a stern glance, yes, what you said would be correct. However, since disarming involves physical interaction, what you described is entirely wrong.



- - In summary (which wouldn't be necessary if people read my writing instead of picking phrases they disagree with out of context), I said there are only two things that matter to me after you disarm someone. They are the TIME between you disarming someone and picking up the weapons, and POSITION your enemy is in. The vast majority of people don't spam commands or use command-and-emote macros, and therefore they would not have a problem with this.

Quote- In summary (which wouldn't be necessary if people read my writing instead of picking phrases they disagree with out of context), I said there are only two things that matter to me after you disarm someone. They are the TIME between you disarming someone and picking up the weapons, and POSITION your enemy is in. The vast majority of people don't spam commands or use command-and-emote macros, and therefore they would not have a problem with this.

Answer me this: How are you supposed to tell what postion they are in if they're not emoting?

If not, I would think the assumed position would be one of being off-balance and surprised since their weapon was just knocked out of their hand.

Also, do you intend to punish those that just type "get weapon" immediately after their weapon is knocked out of their hands?

I would think that this time and position thing goes both ways, not just against the disarmer.

QuoteYes, they are swinging at you. The weapon has inertia from their swing, heading in your direction. Then you swing at them to disarm them. Now inertia is heading in their direction. If you disarmed an opponent with a stern glance, yes, what you said would be correct. However, since disarming involves physical interaction, what you described is entirely wrong.

Eh?  Disarming is all about technique.  Hard to believe I'm alone in thinking it's not weapon-meeting-weapon in direct blunt force.
http://www.kalideleon.com/techniques.html : end-point looks pretty random.

That's exactly the way I see it.

Could be disarmed any number of different ways, not just trying to overpower them and actually strike it from their hand.

Most likely if your good enough, your either going to keep ahold of their weapon if you get it away (and have an open hand to do so) Or your going to attempt to have it land as far away from them as possible.

But, it could go anywhere.

I think the disarm code already puts someone's weapon away from their reach if you'r good enough.

It does, and the disarmers as well.

Disarming, eh?

From what I understand of disarming, IRL, I beleive that it involves a great many different techniques (though generally, Jet Li techniques might leave you wishing for less flare and more relativity). You can't say just how a weapon is disarmed. You can't say just where the weapon lands. You can't SEE any of this. You dig?

You have to roleplay it. If you haven't been using emotes, and your opponent has not been using emotes, then you just have to guess. And in ANY case, disarm;get sword is just super, super, super ga...uhm...twinkish.

Sorry I disagree, if the disarmer sheathes a weapon first and emotes properly I think there should be no problem with it.
I'd have no problem personally with this if I was on the receiving end of it and it was done that way.
I would have a problem and do, if they didn't and do have a problem with even the one disarmed hammering out "get sword" the moment the disarm message comes on the screen.

IMHO, both are equally twinkish.

Quote- - Yes, they are swinging at you. The weapon has inertia from their swing, heading in your direction. Then you swing at them to disarm them. Now inertia is heading in their direction. If you disarmed an opponent with a stern glance, yes, what you said would be correct. However, since disarming involves physical interaction, what you described is entirely wrong.

Not much for physics are ya.

Go play a game of pool, pay attention, get back to me later.

Oh Hell, I can't just leave it, as much as I should...Sigh.

Alright, assume a simple impact style disarm (yes, I know there are other types, but they tend to put the weapon in even odder places) Now, as somebody pointed out on another thread, your arm is a lever and has a pivot point. Now, that means that you must swing your weapon in an arc, or a partial circle, picture it, stay with me now. Each person swings in this circle, if the weapons meet with the same force in the -exact- same direction then they will stop dead, if one person loses hold it drops, in this case it would be slightly closer to the person that was disarmed, but this is unlikly to happen. Now, What is more likly to happen is a deflected disarm, this will cause a transfer of energy and a change of direction, but that change of direction is going to be a combination of the directions of both swings, Or in other words, it will continue off in a straight line decided by the arc it was traveling and the impact it was given, normaly this would put it behind and to one side of the disarmer, it is VERY rare and unlikly for the weapon to make a 180 degree change of direction and go anywhere but down, It is likly for it to make a 30-90 degree change in direction, Draw it out on a sheet of paper and you will figure it out. It really is simple, maybe 7th grade science and math.

As far as the inertia heading 180 degrees the other way, only if you applied a lot more force then they did, unlikly unless you a dwarf/mul or HG...And the easy in which weak races can disarm strong races pretty much points at it not being a strength matter IG.

Now, with actual practical experiance I can tell you that most methods of disarming do a VERY good job of making sure that weapon is not closer to the disarmed the the disarmer, not that it matters, if the weapon is 10 feet off to one side of the disarmed and 9 feet off from the disarmer, I'd just consider that equal and out of reach of both.

Quote- - You provided absolutely no evidence to support any of these points. Stating them as if they were facts doesn't make them facts.

And neither did you. When you stated that it will NOT fall closer to the disarmer etc etc. I have to call you the pot there bub.
As far as providing evidence, grab yourself a sword and bring it with you to the APM, My evidence is from 16 years of Hands On experience that continues today, I'll even be nice and bring a sabre, one of the easiest swords to disarm And I'll bet large sums of money that you can't disarm me and that when I disarm you I will be able to call where your sword goes.

Quote- In summary (which wouldn't be necessary if people read my writing instead of picking phrases they disagree with out of context), I said there are only two things that matter to me after you disarm someone. They are the TIME between you disarming someone and picking up the weapons, and POSITION your enemy is in. The vast majority of people don't spam commands or use command-and-emote macros, and therefore they would not have a problem with this.

Gonna have ta call ya the pot again, Since it is pretty easy to tell that you did not read my first response to your first post except by maybe scanning over certain lines.
My first one was mostly taking issue with the statements that were NOT voiced as opinion but instead what YOu held to be fact and without anything to back it up. In later posts I attempted to clarify to no avail that what really bothered me on your first post, So, I'm going to quote a small section out of context to help out here.

QuoteIf I saw someone do it, I would immediately fine them karma, followed by emailing an OL to request the player lose the DISARM command

Now, this to me is simply wrong, You said nothing about any warning, as a matter of fact, stating you would "immediately" Fine them karma and petition for disarm to be removed from them means that you either are NOT going to warn them or you consider that the warning, and with no regard for the player at all. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but that IS the way it comes across to me and probobly others as well. And seems to be a less then professional attitude to me. I did not care about the part where you stated exceptions and did not add them into the quote the first time around because I had no issue with that part.

QuoteQuote:
If I saw someone do it, I would immediately fine them karma, followed by emailing an OL to request the player lose the DISARM command


Now, this to me is simply wrong, You said nothing about any warning, as a matter of fact, stating you would "immediately" Fine them karma and petition for disarm to be removed from them means that you either are NOT going to warn them or you consider that the warning, and with no regard for the player at all. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but that IS the way it comes across to me and probobly others as well. And seems to be a less then professional attitude to me. I did not care about the part where you stated exceptions and did not add them into the quote the first time around because I had no issue with that part.

That is exactly how I felt about it too, X-D.

I had not really thought much on the subject before this came up, and now that I had, I thought:

"Wow, I might've actually done that, not even thinking about it being considered code abuse. If Gesht had been watching and I had done it, I'd have lost karma and my disarm skill without any warning about it? WTF???!!!"