Armageddon General Discussion Board

Ok, say two people are fighting.

Player a flees, but comes right back in, subdues player b and punches them while subdued.

They flee again, come back, subdue, and punch... Repeat until opponent is out.

Is that considered acceptable, or is it KICK!WHAM!YADAMNTWINK!!! ...?

I have to say it sounds like twinky behaviour to me.......

Yeah. Definitely sounds like twinky behaviour.

Was this all done without any sort of background or emoting or anything? Just simple code-spamming?

If that was the case, I'd say it could seem a bit beardy.

But if the player was providing descriptors and emotive explanations for why they were  carrying out these actions, then why complain?
I mean, I would see nothing wrong with something like:

Player A subdues, then flees, returns.
Player A comes curses under his breath as he steps back, moving out of blade range and keeping mobile as he waits for an opening.
Player A springs forward off of the ball of his foot and lunges at Player B, grabbing them in a vice-like grip and driving an armored fist into Player B's face, rending flesh and crunching bone.
Player A subdues, then flees, returns.
Player A brutally shoves Player B back, stepping back several paces as Player B is off balance. Before Player B can fully get his bearings, Player A makes a diving tackle for Player B's legs, driving his bone gauntlet up into Player B's abdomen, causing serious pain.

Anyway...that was all pretty hamfisted, but you get the point. If they put any sort of explanation to justify the coded effects of their actions, thats pretty different from:
Subdue, Hit B, flee, enter, subdue, hit B, flee, enter, subdue, etc.

I'd say they were trying to get out of the coded mechanics behind bare-handed fighting.  If you are doing it because the code "works better" or gives you an advantage, it might be twinky, for example:

Player A attacks Player B.
Player B flees, re-enters the room and subdues Player A.
Player B hits Player A.

All fine so far, I don't have a problem with that.  But how about...

Player A attacks Player B.
Player B flees, re-enters the room, attempts to subdue Player A and fails.
Player A attacks Player B.
Player B flees, re-enters the room, attempts to subdue Player A.

Thats starting to border on twinkish to me. Sure, they might have a reason, but it looks to me like they are exploiting kill lag, especially if they do it repeatedly until it works.

I would have to say your example would have to be in context to know if it was twinkish or not.  For example, was the subduing player exploiting the other player's kill lag?

Quote from: "Clegane"But if the player was providing descriptors and emotive explanations for why they were  carrying out these actions, then why complain?

Nah, it's still twinky, because the subdue code is broken, at least against armed opponents. It doesn't check the defence skill of the one being subdued, so you end up with the anomalous situation where a character who cannot get either their weapon or hand past the other person's guard can still subdue them. Even at that it might be permissible to try on an armed opponent caught by surprise (say, a subdue from hiding), but repeatedly attempting subdue to bypass the defence check is code abuse IMO.

It doesn't really matter how you dress up code abuse with emotes - it remains code abuse.

Quirk

I'm with Quirk...sounds shite.

Me too.  Code abuse is code abuse no matter how it is prettied up with emotes.

Quote from: "I Have Steel"Ok, say two people are fighting.

Player a flees, but comes right back in, subdues player b and punches them while subdued.

They flee again, come back, subdue, and punch... Repeat until opponent is out.

Is that considered acceptable, or is it KICK!WHAM!YADAMNTWINK!!! ...?

Mail the MUD. Quirk, Clegane, Spawnloser, Mansa, John, Twilight, and jmordetsky aren't the ones who consider what's acceptable or not.

Quote from: "Carnage"

Mail the MUD. Quirk, Clegane, Spawnloser, Mansa, John, Twilight, and jmordetsky aren't the ones who consider what's acceptable or not.

Yeah. We're not and you should. Thought I'd hope the imms will see it in the same light.

QuoteYeah. We're not and you should. Thought I'd hope the imms will see it in the same light.

Nowhere in my post did I claim to be. I simply said that it was best to mail the MUD.

Our opinions on what's acceptable and what's not don't mean shit if it's going against the grain of the MUD. If a group says that doing action x is fine, and when someone imitates it and does so it ends up getting them in trouble, do you think saying "Oh, the guys on the board said it was okay so it must be!" will save you from being in trouble? It won't.

If you've got some sort of problem with that then go cry to someone who cares about how big mean Carnage offered some sound advice that's never going to fail.

Woa. Hold up. I meant I Have Steel should...not you. No offense meant homey.

Lets all take a deep breath and have hug time.

Quote from: "Carnage"

QuoteYeah. We're not and you should. Thought I'd hope the imms will see it in the same light.

Nowhere in my post did I claim to be. I simply said that it was best to mail the MUD.

Our opinions on what's acceptable and what's not don't mean shit if it's going against the grain of the MUD. If a group says that doing action x is fine, and when someone imitates it and does so it ends up getting them in trouble, do you think saying "Oh, the guys on the board said it was okay so it must be!" will save you from being in trouble? It won't.

If you've got some sort of problem with that then go cry to someone who cares about how big mean Carnage offered some sound advice that's never going to fail.

This is a prime example of why you should re-read something before you type out a nasty flame. Or better yet, dont flame, just be a bit more constructive. You misread his sentence.

If we have most of the discussions in the Bard's Barrel, we all would know how good the Brawl code is really.... :wink:

How? I remember someone tried doing this to me.. I just HIT! all the time he came back to the room, 'cause I was waiting for him.. Does subdue ignore the movement lag?
And also I remember he tried subduing me failing all the time. Because I had the skill subdue a little bit trained.. Isn't subdue the defence against subdue again?
I feel curious. Tell me about the rabbits now.

this ain't a H&S. The combat code isn't gonna be perfect.

Thus, a deeper question looms:

Should the immortals of Armageddon be putting emphasis on improving combat code or placing more emphasis on other areas of RP?

Granted, a beautiful and intricate and flawless combat code WOULD be conducive to great RP and much harder to abuse, but it costs manpower that could be spent elsewhere, such as RPTs and HRPTs and whatever else all the imms do.

Personally, I'd like to see a better combat code. Coming from a semi-H&S (Simutronic's Dragonrealms) I love the RP intensity in armageddon but the combat leaves something to be desired.  I love how the hits aren't overly descriptive, leaving plenty of room for emoting, and I don't even mind not having control over when I swing my sword. But as I peruse the boards I notice many OOC challenges when it comes to being a fighter. Different ranges in one room would be nice (melee, pole, missle).

But I digress...the heart of this post is the question in bold ^^^^.


*edit*
P.S. Of course there's always a middle ground to find...and indeed they tend to be the best...but the question is still poignant.

Quote from: "Kivan"This is a prime example of why you should re-read something before you type out a nasty flame. Or better yet, dont flame, just be a bit more constructive. You misread his sentence.

That wasn't a flame.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"Woa. Hold up. I meant I Have Steel should...not you. No offense meant homey.

Lets all take a deep breath and have hug time.

Ah, I apologize then.

Quote from: "Carnage"

Quote from: "I Have Steel"Ok, say two people are fighting.

Player a flees, but comes right back in, subdues player b and punches them while subdued.

They flee again, come back, subdue, and punch... Repeat until opponent is out.

Is that considered acceptable, or is it KICK!WHAM!YADAMNTWINK!!! ...?

Mail the MUD. Quirk, Clegane, Spawnloser, Mansa, John, Twilight, and jmordetsky aren't the ones who consider what's acceptable or not.

Actually...

I posted it here because it's a general discussion forum. And I asked the question to generate discussion as it was on my mind at the time.

I'd have posted on the ask the staff forum if I was wanting a solid answer. But I posted here to get a general idea on how the playerbase sees it.

:wink:

I think it's crap myself.  No way in hell I would be standing there as you ran off and watching you, would I let you run back at me and grab me without whacking you with whatever I had first.  Sounds twinkish enough to fill with cream, package and sell in pairs to me.


Waroth

I agree completely...twinky.

There's nothing worse than someone who abuses the kill lag. I once tried to kill someone out sleeping..I was foolish enough to emote sneaking quietly up on them, which sends the echo to the victim's player and *BAM* he's awake and sprinting towards his kank. I cut him off and start to smack the shit out of his unarmed ass...so he flees..runs back INTO the room, jumps on his kank and bolts before my kill delay is gone. Without that kank, his character would have been very dead, and he knew it. This sounds about like the same crap.

How about the reverse? You're trying to kill someone, they flee..you chase, they try to subdue when you run in...flee when they fail, you chase..they subdue as you run in, process repeats until the subduer finally manages one, and knocks the poor sap out with a wicked hit. What are thoughts on that one?

Or another one...player X leads player Y into a room, so player Y can snap off a quick subdue on player Z with no movement lag, and absolutely no warning to player Z, at which point player X proceeds to smack the shit out of player Z. What do ya'll think? I just lost a character to that one a couple weeks back.


Anyone think armed people should get a free hit in on someone trying to subdue them? Or anyone think of SOME way to make all this a bit more realistic?

Put a delay before subdue is pulled off?

Quote from: "drunkendwarf"Anyone think armed people should get a free hit in on someone trying to subdue them? Or anyone think of SOME way to make all this a bit more realistic?

Have subdue take into account the same factors as would be taken into account if trying to hit someone barehanded, and make it as hard to subdue an armed person as to punch them.

Quirk

You raise an interesting discussion here, but I think people are too quick to jump on the 'twink' wagon.

Think about combat for a second and all the factors you as the combatant take into consideration. First you're thinking about how skilled you are as a fighter, are you confidant enough to engage in melee? If so then you are depending on certain skills to aid you in this regard. (i.e. I spar all the time and I beat on my Sarge even, I must be good!) Inherently the use of these skills is not twinkish. Kill lag is something both parties suffer from, similarly with kick/disarm/bash/subdue...  When you choose to employ one of these tactics you accept that you will be somewhat vulnerable for a time. By that same token you know that if someone tries to kick you they too will be vulnerable, just as in a real fight. Is it OOC to exploit such things?

Absolutely not... If someone comes charging into a bar and attacks person A they should have the opportunity to respond, that response can be in the form of running for their lives... Or it could be to get far enough out of the way of the swords to push off the bar and lurch into a tackle of their attacker(do they have to emote those four lines and die in the process of their response or simply respond by fleeing, running back in and TRYING to grab the person). Hence it is necessary for the attacker to suffer lag. In that moment you can stay and fight or run and hide. If you run off without an emote is that twinkish? I'd say no, it's difficult to emote when swords are hacking into your flesh and realistically your first response would be to get the hell out rather than to spend time finding the words to express to everyone in the room how you're feeling at the moment. *SLASH* Oh... *SLASH* my... *SLASH* krath... *SLASH* Tek... *SLASH*... Help... *SLASH* me! *dead*

Unless of course you felt confidant enough to stay and then the emotes start to fly.

My point is that when you decide to engage in combat you have to consider all of these factors, so if one person uses one of them to their advantage I wouldn't cry foul... I would remember that I didn't have to get into that fight to begin with. (I chose to stay and take my life in my own hands and if the other person kills me then I know what to look out for the next time.)

DrunkenDwarf and 'I have Steel' speak of examples I feel I was involved in so I'll speak to them directly. For both I'll say we're talking about street-fighting which is often quick and dirty. Perhaps I didn't emote immediately after subduing, but how much MORE time do you need to SPAM flee rather than emoting how you've been tackled to the ground or grabbed forcefully by something far stronger and larger than you are?

DrunkenDwarf I will remind you that you didn't have to continually follow the retreating character but you did because you wanted to kill him. As such that character did what was in his power to survive, grab and smash. Your successive flees to break subdue made the seen rather realistic in my eyes as we were engaged in a life or death scuffle... You clearly did not fear being grabbed and held long enough to be crushed. Is that twinkish for not showing that fear and continuing to engage?

I Have Steel, I will remind you that it was YOU who returned to try and 'finish' the job. You got grabbed by something much larger than you and smashed. Keep in mind that even though you spar ALL the time as your aba would suggest that does not negate the fact that the thing you were fighting has a hand larger than your entire head and stands up to 4 times your height.

Is it Twinkish to try to solo a bahamet or a Mek because you feel your skills are high enough? I would say yes, that's insanity. Clearly this creature is far larger and can do far more damage should it get you in its clutches... But the fear of the "clutches" is lessoned because those are NPCs that can't 'grab' you or 'pin' you down or react intuitively to your attacks. So all you think about is 'melee skills'. How many Gith have fleed and thrown spears as they retreated? None. I like how they throw them first, but I'd love to see them keep tossing them as they ran off. Or run after those who try to peg them with arrows.

I believe it's a matter of context. If someone is running around and trying to wrestle you to the ground and you don't want to fight like that... THEN DON'T KEEP COMING AFTER THEM. Peg them with arrows or spears or go get a group of people to help you.  Otherwise your option is to keep going after them and annihilate their unarmed ass as best you can....

To conclude, not everyone is an uber fast typest I understand, but until we can depend on the subduee not spamming flee until they break then the subduer is going to try to smash them before they get away.(let's remember that the subdue is not a given, it fails quite frequently leaving the subduer vulnerable. Also, even if it does succeed the subduee has a chance to flee before the attacker has gotten out of lag) Are you upset because you died, yes... Was it twinkish, No. If you're looking for a fair fight, stick to sparring.

Yup, I don't know how many times I've stated there is TONS of strategy in combat in arm, specialy when these people complain about the auto-combat.

Also, the flee come back subdue, I have no problem with it currently, because that is The only way an unarmed person can attempt to grapple somebody attacking them.
I consider it a workaround, and like when you end a sparring session the person has NOT left the room but just put enough room between him and the other to attempt another grab.

Also, one must not think of things as rooms outdoors, if this was outdoors, the one char simply ran farther down the road, he did not "leave" the room.

Any interation of combat which boils down to 'who can type their command faster' bums me out.  And that's what flee ; backstab||subdue ; repeat ends up becoming.  Who can type their command fastest when one enters the other's room.

Fleeing and returning to subdue multiple times just simply does not take into account that after the first try most targets are going to have their sharp things out and will be doing their best to stick them in the subduer.

In this case CRW, the attackers/aggressers are the ones getting subdued, they did have sharp things out, and I have no doubt that the char that survived took damage, maybe even large amounts, but again, people tend to not think about  how massive some things are in game.

As far as who can type the fastest, Hhhmmm, I don't see that, maybe somebody with a good skilled char and the one who thinks and plans the best, both people had built in lags.


Tell ya another thing, A half-giant or mul has to subdue and punch, they have no coded way to do the things they really would be doing. So this stands for it.

I know if I have a half-giant who weighs 3,200 lbs with armor on and he grabs hold of some human who weighs 200-300lbs with armor on, He is going to pick him up, bash him into some walls, put his hands together crushing the human between them then throw the bloody mass into the nearest hard object.

Also, remember, if a half-giant spreads his arms wide, thats around 15+ feet fingertip to fingertip, each step is going to cover 6-10 feet, pretty hard for some little human to get out of the way.

Me, I wish that every race could EP any item weighing 10-15% thier weight and swing/crush/throw it, also, a crush command would be nice, at least then we would not get so many complaints about somebody killing somebody else in a manner that gave them a chance to get away.

How in the name of everything escru is an assassin supposed to kill anyone if you don't allow them to use the only skills to kill they can employ? Once melee begins an assassin has two choices, run or kiss his/her ass goodbye.  The hide/backstab/flee... repeat... Is a VERY difficult method to employ and one I give a great amount of respect to should someone do it successfully.

What tires me is this feeling that the only good way to fight is to stand there typing kick, kick, fancy kick emote, disarm, kick until one party falls dead or runs off forever. A fight SHOULD be quick and deadly using all available resources... The occasional emote is cool but roleplay is not dependent upon loads of emotes, it's about playing what is right for your character. If you're a grappling street-fighter than go all out, if you're a competative fencer then what the hell are you doing subduing people?

Keep in mind people, TRYING to subdue someone and actually SUCCEEDING are two entirely different things. Just like trying to backstab someone. The attacker is taking a CHANCE... perhaps they take repeated chances...  But if they're taking repeated chances then they're obviously failing, giving you AMPLE time to get the hell away rather than waiting to get grabbed and killed so you can complain on the Discussion board shortly after.

A half-giant would not have much trouble subdueing a dwarf...  All I am saying is that it is unrealistic how the code works.  I do not think I could subdue a midget if he had a sword and shield...  I would be killed.

I think Echo has some very good points.

Is it twinkish for a ranger to flee an attacker, or chase a victim, firing off arrow after arrow? You bet they don't emote - there's no time. But a ranger's archery skill is often touted as what "evens the odds" between a ranger and a warrior. And you can bet success involves how fast you type.

And yet it's somehow twinkish for an assassin to basically do the same with backstab.

And now it's twinkish to subdue and hit someone who is pursuing your character with weapons out? That because they're a 40-day Byn warrior, they're somehow entitled to kill you, no matter what, and you should just lay down and die? I'm sorry, but it's difficult to find sympathy in this scenario.

Does it suck when people make muls to sit on the North Road, subduing and killing travellers as they wander by? Sure, but you get over it. And next time, you learn not to hang around when a mul or half-giant walks in on your lone traveller. Or you learn to look ahead of you when you travel.

Having played a militia person, or a house guard, or a Bynner, I know how difficult it is to just outright subdue someone and have it work properly. Much of the time you miss, letting them run away as you sit lagged out, or they escape from your hold. Subdue does not have to be made useless just because people don't like it when half-giants/muls manage to subdue and kill them. It's a realistic advantage of the races. As previously stated by the staff - If you think someone is abusing the subdue skill, email it to the account. If someone does it consistently, you bet the staff will have something to say about it.

Quote from: "X-D"As far as who can type the fastest, Hhhmmm, I don't see that, maybe somebody with a good skilled char and the one who thinks and plans the best, both people had built in lags.

You can't backstab or subdue once combat has been initiated.  I've been in this situation before with someone fleeing and coming back to backstab me ad nauseum and that is what it becomes.  Who can type out their command the fastest.

QuoteI Have Steel, I will remind you that it was YOU who returned to try and 'finish' the job. You got grabbed by something much larger than you and smashed. Keep in mind that even though you spar ALL the time as your aba would suggest that does not negate the fact that the thing you were fighting has a hand larger than your entire head and stands up to 4 times your height.

I'm not exactly sure why you're pointing the finger at me on a scenario, as my current character has been alive for a good 4 OOC months, and is still kicking now. I was posting a scenario for discussion.

But I'll work with my scenario...

You're telling me that to flee, and then run back in and subdue isn't twinkish?

You disengage from the fight, run waaaaaaay down the street (which is what moving to a different room is) And then you come back in, instantly cross all that ground on the street, grab up someone and smash them before they can react?

I personally can't see that happening. No matter what excuse can be made for trying to work the code or anything.

The only way to explain it would be to say that you're just disengaging from the fight to make your attempt at grabbing your opponent... but think on it, if you're not really fleeing away, and only using the flee as an emote to back away, wouldn't you find it a bit unrealistic that amidst the clash of weapons, your opponent suddent STOPS fighting to watch you get away and grab him? Or do you think he'd remain hot on your heels, swinging like a mad monkey?

Being honest, I would not find it unrealistic to be able to subdue in combat. Yes, I have said it. I have spoken heresy. But wait, hear me out.

Subdue, in the real world, has so many facats. You can trip someone and land on them, subduing them. You can ram someone, then quickly wrap your arms around them, or twist them about in their moment of suprise, and put a firm arm about their neck. You can throw a table at them, then stand on that table as they lay under it, subduing them. As I say, it has so many facats.

Of course there should be an unlikely chance, but it should be attemptable. By the same token, fleeing, running back, and subduing would be typically eliminated. I do find this twinkish, but only because you have to run a league just to leave a fight, and another to come back to one. I've often said that I'd like an option to break up a fight in the same room. Maybe flee room. Something like this.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"I do find this twinkish, but only because you have to run a league just to leave a fight, and another to come back to one. I've often said that I'd like an option to break up a fight in the same room. Maybe flee room. Something like this.

Why would you find it twinkish when it really can't be helped?  If I could run less than a league away, trust me I would.

I'm still with I Have Steel on this, I think it is a bit shite to flee and come back and subdue. My analogy is this,

I have RPed situations with a warrior/thug, where when enganged in a combat situation, that was me and another vs a third. We'll call them 1+2 vs 3. I'm 1.

2 is fighting 3 with 1 assisting. 1 flees, breaking off from the fight and returns steathily attempting to sap the 3 while they are engaed with 2.

This to me is a realistic flank maneuver scenario, in that 3 is occupied with 2 allowing 1 to wrap around and bust a cap. :)

The code also supports this fairly, in that there is a delay with sap (or backstab) and 3 has a chance to turn and face 1 before 1 can 'cap' him.

However, with subdue, it's instant. In my oppinion, EvilRoeSlade's scenario sort of falls in this category....I can see you ducking away, and looping back in for a tackle. This is understandable.

But, a) You should give a chance for I Have Steel to pursue, I mean, hey man, the char is looking right at you, where are you off to?


b) (and this is no fault of EvilRoeSlade) There is no delay in subdue. Which IMHO eats bluging kank bottom. There really needs to be a delay....even a short one with subdue. If there was, a maneuver like this would make more sense. Perhaps a delay with subdue when you have been previously in a fight. (not unlike the quit flag)

I think uberjazz states it quite eloquantly in the following derailment:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5781&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1680

Quote from: "uberjazz"Then the subdue/hit/HGrulesall topic comes up, which is basically an uberdeathkillnothingyoucandoaboutitfuckyouhahai'mruiningthegameforyou unarmed skill, and no one opposes it?

I agree with said statement wholeheartedly.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"However, with subdue, it's instant. In my oppinion, EvilRoeSlade's scenario sort of falls in this category....I can see you ducking away, and looping back in for a tackle. This is understandable.

Actually, when you're trying to grapple, you close in with them, you don't move away.  In my opinion the whole flee-subdue is just bypassing a quirk in the code.  Subdue should be allowed to be used in the middle of combat (with a substantial penalty, granted).

Quote from: "jmordetsky"But, a) You should give a chance for I Have Steel to pursue, I mean, hey man, the char is looking right at you, where are you off to?

Why not?  Grab him while he's trying to close with you, provided your reach is superior to his.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"b) (and this is no fault of EvilRoeSlade) There is no delay in subdue. Which IMHO eats bluging kank bottom. There really needs to be a delay....even a short one with subdue. If there was, a maneuver like this would make more sense. Perhaps a delay with subdue when you have been previously in a fight. (not unlike the quit flag)

Give me the ability to subdue in the middle of combat (with a substantial penalty) and I'm all for it.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"I think uberjazz states it quite eloquantly in the following derailment:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5781&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1680

Quote from: "uberjazz"Then the subdue/hit/HGrulesall topic comes up, which is basically an uberdeathkillnothingyoucandoaboutitfuckyouhahai'mruiningthegameforyou unarmed skill, and no one opposes it?

I agree with said statement wholeheartedly.

Thanks for pointing that thread out to me.  I don't follow Derailment Experiment any longer these days.

So then, you're saying that if I'm against a human being able to kill you with his fists, then I'm a hypocrite unless I'm also against a half-giant being able to kill you with his blocky, torso-sized fists?

I'm not a hypocrite when there are important factors to seperate the two trains of logic.

Surely you agree that the code permits not only HGs to do this, but also humans...

Quote from: "uberjazz"Surely you agree that the code permits not only HGs to do this, but also humans...

No?  I've seen humans, elves, and even super-hardcase dwarf warriors try it before, and I've never seen the same one try that stunt twice.

Someone might please just lock this thread and put an end to it.  Whining and bad roleplay accusing because someone made full use of one of their combat skills?  Tell me this HG was attacking for no reason and you'll get my attention back.  Otherwise, all I will say is I sympathize with your obviously heart-felt loss.  I have lost characters I loved too.
Rick

I didn't lose a character....

If subdue and backstab are acceptable to be used multiple times during combat, they shouldn't require a flee.

Look at it in real life terms here.  If someone tries to grab at you and you are aggressively fighting back with your weapons, it is going to be incrementally harder for them to attempt a second subdue.  subdue <target> ; flee ; subdue <target> ; flee just does not take this into account.  And in the end it comes down to who can type faster, the guy typing kill <target> or the guy typing subdue <target>.

And of course the really cheap bastards will have Subdue aliased to 'sd <target>'

Quote from: "Impska"And now it's twinkish to subdue and hit someone who is pursuing your character with weapons out? That because they're a 40-day Byn warrior, they're somehow entitled to kill you, no matter what, and you should just lay down and die? I'm sorry, but it's difficult to find sympathy in this scenario.

Well, yes, because it's bug abuse. The code's handling of grappling with an armed and trained warrior is not realistic. If the confrontation would not realistically end in your favour given your puny character's abilities while facing the ancient warrior, why resort to loopholes in the code? Correct RP would require a realistic response, which is far more likely to be either turning to face the warrior with weapons bared or running like an erdlu with its tail on fire - dropping your weapons and jumping at your opponent with arms spread wide is a ludicrous thing to do on an IC basis when said opponent is skilled with the sharp and deadly weapons being held in each hand.

Backstab/flee is more of a grey area. There's been somewhat of a discussion on it already with imm input, and I believe the consensus is that it can be acceptable if handled properly.
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1685

Incidentally, to touch on EvilRoeSlade's comment - I'm not sure if I've got this right, I believe the claim is that subdue is extremely hard for non-half-giants? I lost a character back when I first started a couple of years ago now to a subduing elf, and nearly lost a second to one who tried exactly the tactics mentioned here, fleeing and returning and attempting to subdue. I don't believe subdue has been tweaked since with the exception of the removal of the ability to draw a weapon while subduing and hit the victim with it.

A good start would be to give subdue a substantial delay after, so if the subdue was failed the price would be a few rounds of combat spent unarmed - although it might not accurately represent the unlikelihood of getting to a subduing position against an armed attacker, it would provide a fairly accurate representation of the level of risk taken by attempting to fight without a weapon.

Quirk

Quote from: "Quirk"And now it's twinkish to subdue and hit someone who is pursuing your character with weapons out? That because they're a 40-day Byn warrior, they're somehow entitled to kill you, no matter what, and you should just lay down and die? I'm sorry, but it's difficult to find sympathy in this scenario.

Honestly...I'm having a really strange time trying to figure out why you just assume Byn trained warrior...

Quote from: "uberjazz"

Quote from: "Quirk"And now it's twinkish to subdue and hit someone who is pursuing your character with weapons out? That because they're a 40-day Byn warrior, they're somehow entitled to kill you, no matter what, and you should just lay down and die? I'm sorry, but it's difficult to find sympathy in this scenario.

Honestly...I'm having a really strange time trying to figure out why you just assume Byn trained warrior...

No, I didn't. Impska wrote it. Credit where credit's due.

:twisted:

Quirk

Whoops, sorry Quirk. Got my quotes messed up.

Lets be honest.  It isn't necessarily that subdue is broken.  Subdue worked just fine once.  Even when you could draw our your weapons and attack the subdued person, it once worked better than currently.

Then stun points went in.

That changed everything.  In my opinion, the subdue skill should have been rebalanced when stun points went in.  From what I can tell it wasn't, and that is why we are where we are.

Its not necessarily about realism.  A well run MUD is never wholely about realism.  Its about balance.  We all have our ideas of what constitutes balances, so thats a fluid mark to hit.

Personally, I think the whole considering fleeing to just be back away argument, even in stuff like Byn training, is a crock.  If you are using flee, you are getting the hell out of there.

Rebalance subdue.  Take into account the fact that we have had stun code for, hmmm, how many years now?  Put the wait state for subdue on the front end.  Let people be able to have a chance of subduing in combat.  Change the wait state lengths so you can't flee/subdue while the other person is in kill lag.  Those would be my suggestions to rebalance the skill.

Eww, subduing in the middle of combat? You're introducing a whole new world of problems.

I can't seriously read your post as one solid arguement, I'm going to break it up.

1) Subdue code isn't broken.

2) Subdue code doesn't take stun into account.

3) Allow subdue during combat.

Whaaaa?!

If subdue code isn't broken than lets not fix it.  I don't see how stun has anything to do with subdue whatsoever personally, lemme re-read your post and see if I missed something. . Nope, still don't understand where you are comming from.

Then you said subdue out of combat.  Okay, if we have like scales with one side of 3 ounces and the other side with 3 1/4 (slightly off balance) and we made it possible to subdue out of combat, that would be like dropping a ton on one side of the scale.

Why?  Because subdue is a size thing currently.  If a giant can't hit you with anything, he can still pretty much instantly subdue.  Maybe you can break free, but maybe he can club you on the head.  Now if you can subdue out of combat what will we see?  Bulky people with no offense or deapons skills what so ever simply subduing everyone.  It would be the end all skill and suddenly everyone in game would become professional wrestlers, use cheesy catch phrases and find folding chairs out of the very fabric of time!

There is this thing called distance, the game doesn't really take it into account, reach and such.  I personally consider subdue to be a skill that requires you to get close. The only way I could image subduing out of combat make sense is if the skill took defense into account and opun missing, the person who tried got impaled on their attackers weapons.  In which case we might as well not put it in because the skill would be so suicidal to use in combat that no one would.

How about just make it so you cannot attack, whatsoever, while you have someone subdued?

And if you release them, how about a delay before you can attack them?

Seems to me that's all it would take to fix most of the problems with it.

Personally, I don't think it's much of a problem...to me it's flat out code abuse for someone to be doing some of the things that people are doing with subdue and I think there should be examples put under rules specifically about using subdue is such ways as being such, also put it under the help file for subdue. If anyone is caught doing such things...give them a warning the first time, then if they do it again, give them the boot.

How about a bonus to the save vs. subdue that is dependant upon your agility?

I don't really think it's that bad, a few minor problems, just people who are exploiting them and should be given the boot for doing so.

A chance of subduing in combat.  Lets say current chance * .20 or .10 during which time you are barehanded and being attacked.  I would prefer that.

QuotePersonally, I think the whole considering fleeing to just be back away argument, even in stuff like Byn training, is a crock. If you are using flee, you are getting the hell out of there

NO, It is because We have no way to distance from combat -without- leaving the imaginary room, I cannot have my char run 15 feet from yours and turn around and throw a rock, so, I MUST use the flee command to run an -unknown- distance, turn around and throw a rock.

DUH.

Sheesh.

In RL combat you can run around objects, other people, you can push, grab, pull, tackle etc etc, These things we cannot do in arm, so, you use what you can, normaly it is called (pay attention now) A work around.

Agreed with X-D.

Agree wholeheartedly with X-D as well about the virtual variability of flee.

Just throwing may name out there in supprting opinion.

Ditto.

Maybe I should rephrase.

What I saw was people treating flee like they were backing up a couple of steps to stop combat.  Backing up a couple of steps to stop combat is disengage.  There is, amazingly, a reason as a primary target you can't just back up a couple of steps and combat stops.  Namely, your attacker.

When you flee, you get out of there damn quick.  Whether there is 10, 15, 100, or 1000 feet seperating you and your assailant when you stop fleeing is open to interpretation, based on the combat situation (is it a spar or a life and death situation, etc) and the specific room (sparring ring, cramped alleyway, middle of the wastes, etc).  Whatever it was, if you used flee you just got the hell out of there.  To the point, at the least, where you can no longer be considered engaged in melee with your attacker.

Putting it in context to the primary discussion, lets say you used flee.  You just got the hell out of there, meaning at the least you got the fuck away at least enough so you are no longer engaged in combat.  Then you run back in and try to subdue them?  If you are using flee/subdue, you are not simply moving in closer to try to tackle them whatever, because somewhere in there you left melee range.  Trying to say you are just doing a workaround for RP purposes smacks of just trying to justify the code advantage you are trying to gain, when it seems obvious, at least to me, that is not what the code represents.  Anways, just my opinion.

That is why I don't like the emotes when people just take a few steps back to get out of melee, especially when that is all that is emoted.  A couple of steps back, that is just a strategic move, how the hell is your opponent supposed to know you want to end combat (assuming a nice, peaseful spar)?  Now, running until you are out of a sparring ring (oh, my, getting the hell out of there!), makes a bit more sense.  Again, to me at least.

When I'm sparring against a dummy I don't need to "run" away from it when I'm done. I take a few steps back. There's no "disengage" command for sparring and it would be a great idea but there isn't so the only option is to use the flee command. It doesn't mean I'm fleeing, why would I flee from a big sack of sand hanging from a rope? That's silly. I'm just taking a step away. If I'm sparring against a PC and it's time to end the spar (schedule says it's lunch time or whatever), why would either of us need to "flee" from the other? We're just ending the session. Nice and simple, backing off, taking a step away and lowering our weapons. No need to run, except there is no command to do this except for flee.

Sometimes you have to work *around* the code in ordered to roleplay. This is just one of those times.

I agree 100% with Twilight.

Sparring Queen... There's a HUGE difference between ending a spar with flee, and fleeing just so you can work around the way subdue was coded. A VERY huge difference.

In sparring, you're actually ENDING the spar; thus both parties are ending their attacks in order to stop.

In combat, one party is using flee in the assumption that this opponent on his ass is just going to stand there and watch him get away, only to run back into the line of danger and suddenly grab him.

I personally can't see any kind of justified reason for it. If we were meant to be able to subdue during combat face to face, it would have been coded in with the skill.

Because when you're in combat, you're assumed to be right upon the opponent in a fight. You're not 20 feet away from each other, backing up after every attack, only to re-engage again come next round.

And that's what makes the whole workaround thing look more like an excuse to get around the code, IMO.

QuoteBecause when you're in combat, you're ass-u-me-d to be right upon the opponent in a fight. You're not 20 feet away from each other, backing up after every attack, only to re-engage again come next round.

Wow, If power emotes are bad form what exactly is that considered?


And twilight, How exactly them, am I suppose to represent putting an object between us so that you have to come around giving me a chance to grapple? How am I supposed to to represent simply diving forward and attempting to grapple? How am I supposed to represent seeing any opening that allows me to make an attempt on grappling?

Keep in mind, with the current method, anybody that disarms themself to subdue is still taking a -huge- risk, especialy if they are not a half-giant or mul...as a matter of fact, it would be rather stupid, and unlikly to work out for the one attempting the subdue, so, we are only talking about half-giants and muls.

Come now Twilight, I have steel, come up with a currently coded manner in which a truly MASSIVE pc can use the abilities he has. A pc that can engage combat melee from 12 feet or more away and only need take a -single- step back to be 20+ feet away.

I want a fall racial skill for half-giants, that will solve this problem, lets see, human is close enough to hit giant in melee, giant simply spreads arms and falls on human, odds of dodging, minimal, damage, hhhmm, you just had two thousand  pounds...oh wait, add armor, thirty two hundred pounds fall on ya, The answer is, the human is very dead.

Of course that only works if you Assume they are upon ya, of course, hey, Lets do that, I like it, maybe I will idea it, We will Assume that melee alwasy has opponents as close as weapons will permit, that would make it impossible to dodge a bash from a half-giant with a large shield, lets see, 5 feet away from a 8 foot tall 5 foot wide shield powered by half-giant muscle, Yup, All half-giants should be able to bash near 100% because We are Assumed to be right on our opponent in combat.


Blah

QuoteCome now Twilight, I have steel, come up with a currently coded manner in which a truly MASSIVE pc can use the abilities he has. A pc that can engage combat melee from 12 feet or more away and only need take a -single- step back to be 20+ feet away.

Ok, it's called, massively superior strength. It's a size advantage that makes these skills easier to land, when it's the right time to use them. It's the ability to wield a weapon that'll end the average human in a single hit, when it does hit. And so on.

Maybe it's just me, but when I see a fight going on between two people, I don't see them swinging swords at each other from fifteen feet away. Unless your Gandalf and that other guy playing dueling staves. that or the occasional whip or polearm duel, which would still be no easier to back away from than it would be to get away from close-combat weapons as the distance is still closed between the two weapon's lengths.

So, you wanna back away from the fight, then re-enter to subdue...

Only problem is in a real scenario, it'd be like this...

[So and so backs away in an attempt to get that opening to make the grab. But so and so 2 stays on so and so'd heels, because after all, this is a fight, and you don't want your opponent getting away.]

not...

[So and so backs away in an attempt to get that opening to make the grab. So... So and so 2 stops fighting and lowers his weapons, staring dumbfounded while you re-engage and make a subdue attempt, that his weapons don't matter against, because you aren't engaged in combat now, So and so 2's character is just standing there.]


By using the flee command to run out, run back in and subdue, you're basically saying... "Hey, I just ran, made this guy think I fled, only to run back in and grab him instantly, without giving him any kind of benefit of the fact that he probably stayed right on my heels.

Furthermore, if you wanna use the scenario of a half-giant falling atop someone, use the bash skill. In emoting falling on top of someone and then subduing, if you miss, you have a few seconds of lag, where as if you used bash and missed, you'd be down on the ground, where you would actually be if you missed that tiny human who managed to dodge the falling redwood.

I rarely play combat characters, and have probably used the subdue skill less than 20-30 times in 2 years of playing, but I can see it's simply a thing for playability. It was mentioned in another post that if someone is using that flee and subdue method, it should be reported to the mud. IMO, while there is a huge advantage to hopping out and in to take care of that pesky human that you can't out punch/kick/swordfight/clubsmash/ect..., There is tiny advantage to being able to fend from it.

Yall just don't get it!  I am trying real hard not to flame but feel free to pm me if I ever cross the line and I'll just start ignoring this thread.  How do I say this simply.  Hmmm...  Ok, I didn't code it for Armageddon but I feel safe enough in saying this so don't get on me about that detail.  

Subdue and flee were designed to be used together.  Back when Armageddon was coded, I was a very active coder on other diku projects.  The whole focus back then on most dikus was to expand the limited number of classes and limited number skills in diku.  The easiest thing to do was to give one class the same skill as another but with a slight change.  Subdue was just a reworded and tweaked backstab. The game on dikus back then was attack, flee, rest, attack, flee, rest, attack and monster finally dies.  Thieves were way cool to play because with backstab you didn't have to rest as long between flees but even more so that backstab/flee was more interesting than just sitting at waiting for combat to end.  For diku trivia people out there, "circle" was the skill to backstab while still in combat.  Backstab was intended to be a powerful attack followed by a flee.

How does this relate to Armageddon especially in the present?  WE SETTLE LIFE AND DEATH ISSUES WITH EMOTE ENHANCED DIKU COMBAT MECHANICS. Back then, it was much better than the only other choice: combat emotes ("MUSH" combat). Today, is there something better to roleplay with?  Probably, but until we have it: FLEE, SUBDUE, BACKSTAB, POISON, BASH, KICK, RANGED COMBAT, AND EVEN ALL THE -VERY- EVIL TACTICAL MAGIC SPELLS (which I -wont- tell you of..don't pm me) ARE HOW THE COMBAT MECHANICS WORK.  They are balanced.  They were intentionally ment to be more than just "attack and see who wins".  Skills provide BOTH lots of interesting angles to roleplay and opportunistic ways for a fight to be INTERESTING, i.e. more than who has the best offense/defense skill.

Anyway I hope I didn't offend anyone.  It wasn't ment as a personal attack on anyone in particular just venting frustration at this whole topic.

Rick
P.S I forget the exact combat details of Arm.  But, if I remember right if you "bash" then, they can't flee right away perhaps even until they stand. *wink*

So... Tell me then.

Was there any kind of defense coded in to an armed character, who is not engaged in combat having a better chance of not being subdued by a player?

Or do those swords in his/her hand that would more likely than not be used in an attempt to defend against the grubby hands lunging at him/her simply mean nothing because there is no combat going on. (because a subdue attempt doesn't initiate combat.) And from what I've seen, there's always been no real difference at all between the attempt to subdue; victim armed or unarmed. And doing this flee/subdue thing would definitely have the defender up in arms and defending, not just standing there like the game code works it.

If you are asking me, most likely not as everyone was assumed to be armed.  I agree it isn't very realistic but realism was always a low priority back then.

Thank you. :)

Not sure if it's ever been coded in, as I'm anything but close to an imm, or an Arm-expert, but I surely think it'd help this situation tons if it was made a part of the subdue/defend against subdue issue.

The whole free attack idea in another thread seems a grand idea IMO, as it shows your opponent isn't just still sitting there looking stupid while Blockhead Obsidianfists just walks up and grabs ya.  :)

Sadly Twilight, I Have Steel and Wardor(who my previous post should have been address to instead of I Have Steel apparently) continue to repeat the same argument in the same words... over... and over... and over...

Anyway, I will clarify one more time in the hopes that those who are still blinded by the mechanics of combat and roleplay will suddenly see the light.

STOP seeing Flee as running a block down the road with your back turned. Use ROLEPLAY to not see it as such. Unfortunately the majority of this problem relies on the second party to reach deep into their ROLEPLAY ability and react not according to the brutal code but according to the situation and to FILL IN THE BLANKS left by it.  Flee is a versatile command that simply represents disengaging from combat OR some form of change in that combat, to be determined by the end response. Did the person flee and then run off? If so, then they ran away. Did the person flee and then run back? If so, then they DID not run away, they merely changed the current state of that combat in some form in an attempt to try something. Can I throw the spear in my hand at someone I am engaged with currently? No. Would it be part of the fight to do so? Yes. So to accomplish this manuever I MUST flee and throw the spear before pulling my other weapon and engaging again. In reality would I 'RUN AWAY' only to run back and hurl my spear with a girlish scream and a limp wrist? Well, I certainly hope not ;) I'd just wait for an openning and heave the damn thing at the guy before drawing another weapon and charging forward.

Have you ever watched a fight scene in a movie? Is it really only two people standing toe to toe and clanking swords against the other? HELL NO it ain't, how boring. They're all over the place, clashing and grappling, tackling and moving. Pretend you're standing in front of me with weapons wielded, and I have weapons wielded... We start to fight and it becomes apparent that you have more skill at getting past my defenses... what am I to do? Fear not, I'll tell you. I will use whatever I can to put the odds back on my side. I'll kick sand up into your face, I'll bite you, I'll swing chaotically until I finally bat your weapons aside long enough to lunge into you and tackle you to the ground before beating your face bloody.

Consider this: A champion fencer and a boxer meet in an alley. Give them both a foil... The fencer will skew the boxer... most likely with irritating pierces to his flesh. Will the boxer continue trying to play that game? Not unless he likes being a pin-cushion... no, he will brutalize the fencer by trying to get the fencer to play HIS game... By taking a shot to the arm perhaps but in that same move thrusting forward and smashing a fist into the fencer's gut, dropping his candy ass before annihilating him.

Can a man with a knife be beaten by an unarmed man? You better believe it. Man with knife thrusts forward and the unarmed man grabs the wrist, spins into the body and brutalizes, perhaps even twisting the own guy's knife into his belly.

Can we do that on Arm? Yup... It's called FLEE and change the game. As it stands an unarmed guy will be brutalized if just stands against a guy with a knife. Can the other guy follow if someone flees? Yes if you're RUNNING away, but if I'm not RUNNING away and I'm using flee only to represent trying a different tactic then you don't SEE me RUNNING ANYWHERE. This is where your strength as a roleplayer is tested. React intuitively. Is your death warrant signed? Well, if you were fighting alone against a half-giant or mul, then it was signed before you began if you're anything BUT a half-giant or mul yourself. Once again, your strength as a roleplayer is tested. No human or elf should willingly stand before a half-giant or mul alone... Perhaps a stubborn dwarf, but that's about all in my opinion.

Anyway, before I tangent too far on a rant... Start turning the focus on yourself and ask yourself why you are ONLY choosing to see this situation as the person running down the road and you standing there with weapons out before they come running back as IF they're going to charge into your weapons... Supposing you never look at this situation from another light let's pretend that the person DID run down the street, change their mind about fighting and run back... Are they running straight at you? Are they going to charge forward and roll into your legs? Are they going to leap off the wall? Broaden your minds.

All of what I've just said is a general statement about the topic of flee and combat... Only GENERAL. Now let's just talk Half-Giant. Heed the words of X-D and EvilRoeSlade, they speak the truth. The subject of Half-Giants changes this topic entirely. None of those considerations should even be spoken of... A Half-Giant should simply be able to grab you by the legs and swing you like a broken ragdoll into the ground, the walls, a nearby kank, himself... whatever the hell he feels like throwing you into. He should be able to tear a limb off someone if he actually grabs them and then beat them to death with it. A half-giant should be able to grab someone and kill them in ONE single hit. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE F-ING HALF-GIANTS.  

Time to put our ROLEPLAYING caps on once again amigos. Pretend your thoughts aren't on your high agility and high sparring average per day compared to the notoriously low agility of half-giants.  Do you look at a half-giant as something you could cut apart because of their low stats compared to yours or do you look at EVERY half-giant as a 15 foot tall walking machine of death with the mind of an 8 year old? Something that could easily crush the head of any other humanoid in the world? Then ask yourself again why you would ever think of attempting to fight one alone. Take them for all their 'sid on a purchase, OF COURSE. Fight them alone? Stop smoking crack.

Allow me to conclude by saying that it's not subdue that needs to be adjusted, but merely people's attitudes towards roleplaying around half-giants.

Good post Echo.

Yup. nothing I can add.

I like to think of arm combat as less action and more simple drama. Sure, in the movies people jump around and balance on rails and stop to participate in some swashbuckling, with their weapons clashed. But really if, like echo said, I'm clearly the more skilled fighter and you attempt to throw sand in my face or bite me or swing wildly, I'll simply kill you. Lower your defenses to do anything, and I'll simply kill you. That's the way it works, and in Arm, that's fairly well represented. Sure, if you're a really agile, combat-hardened mofo and I'm just some punk coming at you with a knife, you'll disarm me and knock me out or grab my own knife. But that, again, is represented.

Also, weapon design plays a large part in who will win a one-on-one match, as much as skill does. A fencer against an unarmed opponent will kill him in less than a second flat, and a half-giant, yes, would smash the hell out of a guy with two curved blades with his big-ass hammer, unless he's really quick on his feet. But these things too are represented by the combat code. Much if not all of what echo mentioned is.

Except for retreating and "changing up" your tactics by coming back to the fight. The fact is, it's not easy at all to get away from somebody that's got a weapon pulled on you. The only reason people can in the first place, codewise and otherwise, is because they turn tail and haul ass without much physical indication that they'll ever come back. In a one-on-one situation, fleeing represents getting away from the fight.. that's what the function is for. If you come right back in, you really didn't flee. You just jumped away while your opponent inexplicably did nothing at all, much less attempted to chase you. You took advantage of the fact that he won't respond for a second to get in another shot, without chase or the fact that he's anticipating you. Whether you throw, subdue, backstab, or whatever, you're abusing the flee code to bypass the combat code's representation of certain fighting maneuvers.

QuoteMaybe it's just me, but when I see a fight going on between two people, I don't see them swinging swords at each other from fifteen feet away. Unless your Gandalf and that other guy playing dueling staves. that or the occasional whip or polearm duel, which would still be no easier to back away from than it would be to get away from close-combat weapons as the distance is still closed between the two weapon's lengths

We are not talking about two people, we are talking about a Half-giant and a non-half-giant.

A half-giant's arm is around 5-6' long, include a half-giant sized weapon and you get another 5-6 feet easy, then include the reach of the non-half-giant.  One of the reasons a half-giant should have an easier time hitting people, simply because of how hard it would be for them to get out of the way of his swings if they are close enough to hit him. I really want to see an armored human jump backwards out of the way of a half-giant sized maul being swept in from the side at waist height, lets see, that would be a good 6-9 foot backward jump and still maintane balance and attack back...snicker, right, there is some realism for ya, or even better, a human with a little bone sword parrying a weapon that weighs as much as him powered by something massing 1800+ pounds, snort. That maul is gonna sweep him, and his puny sword 30 feet into whatever happens to be nearby.
Someday tie a 200lbs log to a rope, hang it from a tree, take a baseball bat and stand next to the log, then have a few friends...or enemies actually, pull the log back as far as they can and let it go, and you try to deflect it with your bat, and here you are only talking 200lbs of inertia with gravity driving it, so, a more realistic contest would be to get a back-hoe, and have somebody swing the bucket at you while you try to knock it off course with your bat. Have fun, and Like malifaxis, I'll take responsibility for the cleaning of the genepool if anybody does this.

Quote from: "Echo"STOP seeing Flee as running a block down the road with your back turned. Use ROLEPLAY to not see it as such. Unfortunately the majority of this problem relies on the second party to reach deep into their ROLEPLAY ability and react not according to the brutal code but according to the situation and to FILL IN THE BLANKS left by it.  Flee is a versatile command that simply represents disengaging from combat OR some form of change in that combat, to be determined by the end response.

This is really the crux of the disagreement.  In my opinion, in an RPI mud the code is there to enhance and support RP and not, as you suggest, the other way round.  You argue that we ought to RP to support the Flee command.  

I realize that we work around the code in lots of situations.  For example, still on "flee" -- we agree in sparring scenarios to a convention that fleeing is merely disengaging and not running into the next room.  We can do this because it is a shared vision of the reality in those situations.  However, in a real fight there is no accepted convention, no shared vision, because only the attacker/fleer HAS the vision.  They have whatever vision necessary to justify their planned moves of flee, move back in, subdue.

I don't know what the solution is but I don't think it is to be found in maintaining that the non-fleer ought to read what is in the fleer's mind when actually all that they have seen is somebody fleeing west, returning, subduing them.

--Medena

Truthfully, I would love to see a disengage skill, yes, -skill-, some guilds would be better at it then others, and you should be able to link another command to it, maybe  disengage hide, disengage backstab, disengage throw, leave it to target the last opponent, have delay before and after on a fail leaving the person open like if they tried to pick something up during combat, even on success a possible parting shot should be possible, maybe if opponents skill is higher. on success autocombat does not re-engage even if hit for a set amount of time for the person who used the disengage skill, if both people type like "disengage nothing" within the timespan then combat is ended. This would leave flee in place as is, and make it so that if somebody did use flee and come back then you could yell twink and nobody would argue since there would be another option in place. Till such an option exists then we have to use flee.

In response to Echo's post...

As my conversation with Lerl went...

If one is allowed to flee and come back, yadda yadda as a way of subduing mid fight, then there should be an accounted for advantage to the defender, as he is basically left helpless against the coming subdue, (no matter the race), because he is no longer in combat, thus hasn't the chance to strike out and possibly save his hide before the subdue takes place, which would likely happen in almost any situation.

You tell us to pave a way for the rping aspect, but that's also saying, 'Give yourself a disadvantage, so my unarmed attacker can have an advantage over you armed attacker, because we have to get around the code.'

And no, I'm not sacrificing my character in an attempt to make good rp out of a code vs code combat situation, nor do I doubt 99% of the players in Armag would.

---

And X-D, you can speak of the whole length and distance issue and the advantage it brings, but look at it this way...

If that smaller, more agile worker gets in PAST the head of that huge maul, and righ tup on that massive opponent, he's pretty much eliminated a good portion of that weapons danger, because this massive half giant is going to have to get himself backed up to make an effective swing. Same way with even a human sized warrior and a polearm. Get inside on it and they've lost a major amount of advantage on the attack.

Size is good and all, but it does have it's disadvantages. And it has it's many ways of effectively fighting against it.

I still stand by my thoughts in the end however, no matter how you try to dress it up with the excuse of rp over code, if subdue was meant to be used during combat, it would have been coded this way, just like the other combat skills such as kick and bash were.

And if the sake of rp is what still matters, once you do flee and come back in, have an emote about moving in to subdue, so that poor helpless character you just ran in and out on will have time to react like he should be able to. that whole, flee, back, subdue without a blink is just not right IMO.

QuoteIf that smaller, more agile worker gets in PAST the head of that huge maul, and righ tup on that massive opponent, he's pretty much eliminated a good portion of that weapons danger, because this massive half giant is going to have to get himself backed up to make an effective swing. Same way with even a human sized warrior and a polearm. Get inside on it and they've lost a major amount of advantage on the attack.

At which point you are well within the half-giant's grasping range and he should be able to drop weapon right there and grab you, again, code wise, no can do without fleeing. Also, that massive weapon is still being held by a massive arm, so, even if the weapon cannot hit the arm still would, true, with drasticly reduced damage, but the tiny little human would not keep his feet.

Yes indeed, but when that arm went to grasp the tiny human, he would surely be in range to defend with a good stab, or a hack at the coming arm, ect... Which isn't allowed by a flee/return/subdue, and the lack of a chance to defend by the mechanics of the subdue skill.

Think of it how the parry skill works.

A attacks, and B's parry skill has a chance to kick in.

A subdues, and B's free attack to stop, fail, lower % kicks in.

I wouldn't even care about the flee and come back deal, if it wasn't so unfair to the defender.

I've always been in favor of being able to hit a potential subduer if armed, though if the armed pc is human sized and the subduer is giant sized then the damage had better be MASSIVE before it cancels the subdue. Also, the more I think about it, the sillier the idea of a human sized char (halfling/elf/dwarf/halfelf/mantis/gith) Parrying a blow from a half-giant (bahamet/mekillot/gaj/silt horror) becomes. I mean come on now, A human somehow blocks/deflects the blow given by an animal who's leg is as big(bigger?) Then a half-giant?

Quote from: "Echo"Can a man with a knife be beaten by an unarmed man? You better believe it. Man with knife thrusts forward and the unarmed man grabs the wrist, spins into the body and brutalizes, perhaps even twisting the own guy's knife into his belly.

If the man with the knife is trained, his being beaten by an unarmed man is extremely unlikely. Among other things, I practice a variant of jujitsu which places more emphasis on weapons defences and disarms than any other martial art I have heard of. It is tacitly acknowledged in the style that going up even against a smaller and untrained opponent who has a knife is a risky business even for the highly skilled. A trained opponent will not be overcome.

Getting a sufficiently secure grip on the wrist of someone holding a knife to be able to employ some technique that will culminate in parting them from that knife is not trivial even if they are not trying to be awkward. If they do not commit to the first stab, by moving in to intercept you are likely to leave yourself incredibly vulnerable.

A fencer and a boxer would be a highly unequal match were the fencer given a real rapier. Boxers are fast, but the tip of that fencer's foil moves almost an order of magnitude faster. There is a reason why men have taken to using weapons - they give a huge advantage over unarmed combat.

Fleeing then returning to subdue is code abuse, as (subdue's other failings apart) it's taking advantage of the lack of representation of range in the code. You've attempted to step within range of your foe's weapons, you've been hammered, you're again going to pass through that range to try to grapple - and because the code doesn't represent this, you can freely pass without being hit despite the fact that you were in combat just a second ago and your opponent will certainly have their guard up.

The "my character will do anything to even the odds, so I will too" is a very poor excuse to justify using the code to gain a completely unrealistic advantage while unarmed. Moreover I find the "ROLEPLAY" defence very weak when attempting to explain off code abuse - it's quite as bad or worse as those who power-emote the ability to beat up an ancient warrior that code-wise could destroy them, and then complain when that warrior reduces them into bloody pulp. If your view of the world is so unrealistic as to assume that unarmed people stand a serious chance against armed men trained in the weapons they're holding, that's your problem; don't complain that our minds aren't broad enough to encompass your ROLEPLAY because frankly, your ROLEPLAY is unrealistic and ridiculous.

Quirk

Quote
"your ROLEPLAY is unrealistic and ridiculous."  ... "code abuse" ?!

Wow.  I'm glad you don't have access to my karma. If I played a dwarf whose focus is to drag off a halfling to marry, and tried to subdue the same halfling more than once I'd be doomed!  Heh... Ok, I'm being comical.  :roll:  :D
Rick

In my personal opinion, when the code, via unrealistic actions, allows you to do something that you should be able to do in real life, you should do it. If that means that in order to subdue your ass during a fight I have to flee and come back and try, then that is what I am going to do. When the code allows one to try to do it during combat, then I will no longer flee and come back.

If the question suddenly becomes, "Can you subdue in combat in real life?", then the answer is a resounding, "YES!"

I've lost the will to argue this.  Giant ultra-subdue is fine by me.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"In my personal opinion, when the code, via unrealistic actions, allows you to do something that you should be able to do in real life, you should do it. If that means that in order to subdue your ass during a fight I have to flee and come back and try, then that is what I am going to do. When the code allows one to try to do it during combat, then I will no longer flee and come back.

If the question suddenly becomes, "Can you subdue in combat in real life?", then the answer is a resounding, "YES!"

Problem is, 7DV, that when you flee you are being removed from combat, so I can't keep hacking at you.  That's what bothers me about it.  It becomes a race between players as to who can type their command first since a player typing kill first will cancel out the subdue and vice versa.

If it was set to work like disarm or bash (not requiring a flee), it wouldn't be so bad, because there could be some negatives built into it, like if you fail you end up on the ground, or the person gets a few extra whacks in on you like when you bend over to grab a weapon.

Completely agreed, CRW.

At the same time, just because the code has not been set up to allow me the chance to subdue you during combat at this time, does not mean that I will not do what I have to do to accomplish it. Hopefully, it will do this in the future. Until then, I don't believe in not doing it just because in another's mind it appears twinkish.

A prime example of this would be if I were a soldier in a City-State. I would flee/subdue without qualm because the code does not allow me to do it while in combat.

But completely agreed, CRW.

While I think you should be able to subdue in combat, the fact that it isn't possible means that you'r not supposed to, and flee-subduing is just getting around that opstacle that was put in the code.

Quirk, I respect your views even though I strongly disagree with them. What you call gaining an unrealistic advantage I call gaining a realistic advantage based on race. I too take martial arts, a style called Budokai which is a variant of Aikido with some kicking forms added. I would never choose to get into any fight, but I know that were I to be attacked and I was unarmed I feel confidant enough that 1) I will be cut and 2) I will kill the attacker.

Your cries of ridiculous and unrealistic role-play aside, my point is that even if a master of knives comes at me I am going to try to remember my training and defend myself appropriately... I will most likely die, yes. And you will never hear me say that I would like to fight someone unarmed when they have a weapon. I see the ability to "ATTEMPT" a grab as necessary and I explained such thuroughly in my other post. If the only way I can 'ATTEMPT' a subdue is to 'flee' and come back into the room then that's what I do. You however see any attempt of grappling as 'ridiculous' and 'unrealistic' if the other person has a weapon. Does this rule out bash as well? Should we take bash out because the opponent says he would stab the basher in the eye before he got close? Do weapons have something to do with bashing? Am I bashing you with the flat of my dagger?

Anyway, we have different ways of looking at the situation... I may not think your view is ridiculous but I do think it is misguided and inappropriate to this game.

Justifications of actions that are dodgy are always lame, because it only exists in the mind of the doer. Something that you should be able to do in real life but can only be done via an exploit, sounds like a sad justification to me.

If something isn't modelled properly in the game, it doesn't exist. You can't just do a work around with the quirky way the combat code works and claim that you're doing something IC, especially when that quirk results in a definate disadvantage to the other player. Until you can actually subdue during combat, or flee subdue with the appropriate penalties heaped onto you to take into account that the other guy won't be just staring at you while you back off however much distance you think you're backing off in your mind ... meh.

I would like to see official staff opinion regarding such a situation. If fleeing and coming back to subdue is twinkish in the staff's eyes, then I will not do it. If they do not find it twinkish, then I will persist. It really comes down to being that simple.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"I would like to see official staff opinion regarding such a situation.

Me too.  Is fleeing to attempt a subdue or backstab multiple times acceptable use of the code or not.

This is one of those times where I don't think varying opinions of players is going to help the matter because everyone seems pretty polarized on the topic.  Here's a vote for some advice from on high.  Hell, if it's ok to do, I'll certainly be doing it.

Quote from: "Echo"Quirk, I respect your views even though I strongly disagree with them. What you call gaining an unrealistic advantage I call gaining a realistic advantage based on race. I too take martial arts, a style called Budokai which is a variant of Aikido with some kicking forms added. I would never choose to get into any fight, but I know that were I to be attacked and I was unarmed I feel confidant enough that 1) I will be cut and 2) I will kill the attacker.

Well, without making this into a martial arts thread, I sincerely suggest you get out there and get some sparring practice in - even just getting a random non-martial-artist friend to pick up a rubber knife and try cutting you up. I think you'll find that being certain you can kill even an unarmed attacker is a pretty ludicrous stance to adopt (unless of course you're a top-notch cage fighter or have similar combat experience). Claiming you'd kill an attacker who came at you armed with a knife... well, I sincerely suggest you get someone who doesn't play by dojo rules to test you, before you get too foolhardy in a real situation. If your Aikido is anything like the normal uke-tori version this goes doubly - real assailants are not going to be compliant like your ukes.

QuoteYou however see any attempt of grappling as 'ridiculous' and 'unrealistic' if the other person has a weapon.

Not at all. I have merely pointed out on numerous occasions that while it's a highly dangerous business in reality, the code does not reflect this, and it's fairly easy to subdue
someone whose guard you could not pass with a weapon or a bare fist. Hence my cries of "code abuse" - it's using what can only really be construed as a bug to gain an advantage unlikely to be available in that situation. Bash is (in my experience) often considerably more difficult to get off, and it has a significant coded disadvantage after failure, so it isn't subject to the same abusability.

Quirk

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"I would like to see official staff opinion regarding such a situation. If fleeing and coming back to subdue is twinkish in the staff's eyes, then I will not do it. If they do not find it twinkish, then I will persist. It really comes down to being that simple.

From Sanvean's post in the Subdue thread recently:

Quote from: "Sanvean"

QuoteI think the issue here is that some people are using subdue and hit in this manner to twink out on a fight. Flee, come back in, and try and subdue a prepared fighter with drawn weapons who, realistically, would just attack you the second you get anywhere close enough him to grab him.

If someone is doing this consistently, please feel free to drop an email with the details to the mud account.

From an earlier thread on backstab and flee:

Quote from: "Tlaloc"Backstabbing during combat is another thing entirely. I'm of the opinion that, during a fight, anything goes. So long as its RP'd, I don't mind seeing an Assassin fall back, and set up another trap for his or her victim. I'd be alittle against a simple backstab, flee, return, backstab routine...however, if the assassin actually made use of thier skills:

backstab, flee, sneak, return, hide, shadow opponent, backstab...hell, even just sneaking back and backstabbing is a better solution than simply running back in and backstabbing. Doing that is using your assassin as a warrior...and thats a good way to kill off an assassin.

Hope that helps.

Quirk

See, what Tlaloc is saying there makes perfect sense, you flee, get a few rooms away, hide behind an object and wait for them to be looking for you, then whammo, backstab again.  Just because the person is on alert doesn't mean that you still can't surprise them.  At least, if I understand him correctly.

Quirk, the two views are both conflicting and agreeing at the same time. Read them again.

Sanvean says to 'feel free to drop an email with the details to the mud account' so that the staff can evaluate the situation. I don't believe her statement condones or condemns either stance.

Thaloc says that 'simply running back in and backstabbing ... is using your assassin as a warrior'. I don't remember saying anything about an assassin. You may note, however, that he has no prob with seeing an assassin fall back and come back with the correct RP.

Therefore, as previously stated, I would like to see an official staff opinion regarding this situation.

Note: Quirk, you the man, 4 real. You cool as fuck. But don't match wits with me. I win. You know this already.

I think its getting near the point where this thread needs to be put to sleep.

Quote from: "uberjazz"I think its getting near the point where this thread needs to be put to sleep.

Why? Nobody is flaming. Nobody is pissed. Healthy discussion is good for your health. It's good for your mind.

You're probably right...maybe I'm so damn tired.  Yep, that's why.  As you were.

I thought I would comment on half-giants subduing.

QuoteBecause of their dim wits, half-giants will have to focus very hard on one thing to get it right. When panicked or rushed, this kind of concentration breaks down, and half-giants will tend to make all sorts of blunders.

coupled with

QuoteBoth their limited attention resources and their dim wits make them very inflexible in their thinking tasks. From a problem solving point of view, a half-giant is likely to adopt one approach and stick with it to the bitter end.

and of course

QuotePerseverance is another characteristic which describes inflexibility in problem solving tasks, but in a different light. Just as someone with inflexibility will have difficulty adopting new problem solving approaches, someone who is persevering will continue to do the same thing over and over again - even when it is absurd. The examples of this are endless, and open to varied interpretation.

All of this is my interpretation of half-giant roleplay, but, here goes.  If your half-giant is suddenly coming up with this incredibly great, flexible combat strategy of grabbing someone with no prior experience.  Well, I would probably just go, ummmm.  Prior experience, cool.  Hard to know as the other person, of course.

The reason it is sometimes sane to go against a half-giant is the above aspects of their mind.  They are going to (imho) have a few well practiced combat manuevers they do, over and over and over and over until it gets the job done.  If you were trained well enough, and perhaps desperate enough, after you read what those were going to be, it would just be a matter of figuring out a strategy to get past them.  The half giant is generally not going to improvise on you in the middle of combat, unless, of course, its a blunder.  In which case that blunder technique, whether good or bad in a real light might be added to their routine.

Of course, this is all sort of the RP aspect that others have brought up.  People have said about if you got inside of a half-giants weapon range, they would just drop the weapon and grab you.  Sure, if that is one of the limited number of techniques they have.  If it is not, though, it is unlikely they are going to improvise and grab you.  Most likely they are going to stick with the tried and true method of trying to smash you with their weapon, whether or not it really makes sense.

So anyways, that's my take on why it is feasible to take on a half giant.  Not completely sane, by any stretch of the imagination, but feasible.

Oh yes, almost forget.  Half giants are between 10 and 12.5 feet tall.  They are not going to take one step back and be 20 feet away, more like 6.

I don't know about half-giants that have never worked for anybody, but I tell ya what, the thing most often heard by a militia or legion half-giant is, "grab him" So, grabbing something is well practiced by those half-giants. And yes, if this is the practiced method, and it has worked time and again, then he is going to keep doing it, as a matter of fact, I could easily see a half-giant attempting a grab, missing, getting hit and attempting again and again till he grabs the opponent or is dead, but sadly this bit of proper play of a half-giant is not allowed by code unless you use the dreaded flee command.

Otherwise, I would love if the code allowed a half-giant to simply sweep a big ass weapon side to side at waist height of his opponent(s) A very simple and half-giant style of combat, also it would be extremly effective, but the code does not do that, so do to code it is nearly impossible to rp the combat of a half-giant the way the docs state a half-giant thinks and acts. Also partly because the people playing non-half-giants do not treat them that way either.

Also, to this I will answer.

QuoteOh yes, almost forget. Half giants are between 10 and 12.5 feet tall. They are not going to take one step back and be 20 feet away, more like 6.

Since I think I made the statement, Yes, the half-giant takes a step back and thats like 6 feet, not twenty, but I also stated that the reach of said half-giant with weapon included is around 10 feet and it was a combined distance. Even a half-giant can figure out pretty quick that if the guy with the pointy stick gets close enough he will poke him with the stick, it will hurt, keep guy with pointy stick away and no poking, no hurt, again, not a far stretch to think they would figure out they have a longer reach and to use it, stay back and swing, I hit him, he don't hit me.

But again, code does not reflect this, in combat or otherwise for that matter. Think about it, code allows a half-giant to parry and dodge, but according to size, physics and docs, these things should be all but impossible for a half-giant to do, at the same time though, it should be extremly hard to parry a blow from a half-giant or to dodge one, yet I've seen halflings parry a huge half-giant sized two-handed stone axe with a knife, snort. And the best part is the number of people that think that a dumb slow unimaginative half-giant has to fight on the same level as they do.

Code-wise, in straight melee half-giants are guys that hit real hard that have no offense and even less defense.

How come I feel like the people that argue magickers are not nearly as feared as they should be because everybody knows how to kill them easily.

Oh, I know why, because it is the same thing, magicker, mystical power of the scary and powerful type, don't matter, they are limited by code and what the players know about the code, same for half-giants A big fucking mountain of muscle with a weapon scary, nah, we know they have no offense/defense and swing so slow any 5 day warrior can take one alone on his uber speed alone, oh wait, somebody figures out how to make them scary, Oh no no, can't have that, he cheated, yup, TWINK, TWINK, how dare you use the fact that your char is stronger and the size of a Kodiak to beat my uber dodging skills! Never mind that no sane person would ever think about trying to take on something like that alone.

Personaly I think it is slipping of RP by the players, Malifaxis had a thread complaining about how people ignored a very upset half-giant in a tavern, many people defended the actions of the pc's, or inaction as it may be, I found the defenses silly, IRL You damm sure would know if a 2,000lbs mountain of muscle was upset in a tavern, and to all you half-giant players out there, aside from people not treating the size of your char realisticly, when was the last time anybody tried to take advantage of your char's dim wits? I've seen elves treat half-giants Fairly!! Sad really.

Anyway, I'm tired and will probly get up in the morning and read this and go damm, what a rant, if it is, sorry ahead of time.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Quirk, the two views are both conflicting and agreeing at the same time. Read them again.

Sanvean says to 'feel free to drop an email with the details to the mud account' so that the staff can evaluate the situation. I don't believe her statement condones or condemns either stance.

I would suggest that the staff desiring to take a look at the situation in more detail argues that using subdue and flee at the very least can be seen as abusing the code, whether it always is or not. The emphasis on "consistently" doing it would tend to reinforce that impression IMO.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Thaloc says that 'simply running back in and backstabbing ... is using your assassin as a warrior'. I don't remember saying anything about an assassin. You may note, however, that he has no prob with seeing an assassin fall back and come back with the correct RP.

CRW asked about flee and backstab, so I dug out a post on that topic from a previous thread which seems to say it's A-OK provided it's RPed through properly and uses the assassin's skills of concealment.

Quirk

Quote from: "Quirk"

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Thaloc says that 'simply running back in and backstabbing ... is using your assassin as a warrior'. I don't remember saying anything about an assassin. You may note, however, that he has no prob with seeing an assassin fall back and come back with the correct RP.

CRW asked about flee and backstab, so I dug out a post on that topic from a previous thread which seems to say it's A-OK provided it's RPed through properly and uses the assassin's skills of concealment.

Quirk

There is a reason flee and backstab isn't seen as terribly wrong.  It's a very simple reason.  Backstab + flee = delay.
Actually both of them alone equals delay, meaning what?  Meaning an assasin can't depend on their bs skill alone or sneak hide.  The other person, during their times of delay WILL have an oppertunity to beat the living crap out of the assasin.  IF the assasin has a high enough bs to win anyway, then that's fair, but unless they have at least some skill to back it up they will get toasted with a capitol P.  Don't ask what the P stands for, you'll just get further confused.  

Anyway, this isn't exactly the case with subdue.  Some races can't miss subdueing.  And if they manage to grab you, with their str, it's like an instant kill without having to actually have any skill whatsoever.  That's a little on the lame side.

The difference here is, strip away the rp and pretty emotes, using backstab in such a manner is balanced out better than using subdue in such a manner.

QuoteAnyway, this isn't exactly the case with subdue. Some races can't miss subdueing. And if they manage to grab you, with their str, it's like an instant kill without having to actually have any skill whatsoever. That's a little on the lame side.

And there is the clincher, the race least likly to fail a subdue simply does not have -skill- will probobly never have skill and even if they did have some skill it is often overmatched by even a human warrior with 5-10 days of play time, not to mention the other stats of the other races, which are leaps and bound higher then theirs.

The problem as I see it is the fact that the players simply think of them as really strong slow humans, just another pc to pit your uber 5 days of sparring time skills against and that these beings should be pitting the skills they have learned from sparring against you evenly.

And it simply is not the case, a 30day half-giant who has had access to a sparring ring and other half-giants to spar against still has around 1/100 the time in sparring as your average human 10day warrior, add to that VERY low wis, so that even what limited experiance they have is not capitalized on. This leaves you with a char that may have 30 days of play but has the skills equal to a 2days of play byn runner, add again the very low agi and the -fact- that most players do not treat them as the very scary titans that they are(should be), and yet you expect them to -play fair- Bah.

You want to deal with a half-giant, fucking outwit him/her that is where your non-half-giant char has an advantage, not in strength of combat. Roleplay, use brains, you'd probly be amazed at how well played most the half-giants in the game really are, how much thought goes into their actions by the player.

Read the half-giant docs, then, read them again, then play accordingly, the docs are as much for the people -not- playing something as they are for the people playing them. And maybe the other more complicated races while you are at it, Mul, Half-elf, I see a lot of very poor play around them too.

Believe me, the game as a whole will be much better for it.

Disclaimer: Not all the players treat them this way, but from what I see, a good 95% do.

Quote from: "X-D"

You want to deal with a half-giant, fucking outwit him/her that is where your non-half-giant char has an advantage, not in strength of combat. Roleplay, use brains, you'd probly be amazed at how well played most the half-giants in the game really are, how much thought goes into their actions by the player.

Read the half-giant docs, then, read them again, then play accordingly, the docs are as much for the people -not- playing something as they are for the people playing them. And maybe the other more complicated races while you are at it, Mul, Half-elf, I see a lot of very poor play around them too.

Believe me, the game as a whole will be much better for it.

Disclaimer: Not all the players treat them this way, but from what I see, a good 95% do.

I actually agree with this completely, but you can't blame a char for not seeing it this way.  Because it's a TWO WAY street.  In order for person A whom we'll define as human, to treat person B who we will define as half giant, or mul, of half elf, corrently, they must BOTH be in the mindset of their char.

A half giant has to play the dim wittedness correctly and not always have their player there to save them.

The mul has to take into account that they almost definatly come from a slave background (infact I think they all do but who knows maybe an exception occured somewhere) anyway and that their char would have feelings somehow about that ,maybe they lack a sense of self? Maybe they have rage issues, okay they deffinatly do, but slaves generally are broken, something the mul player tends to miss.

Half elves both crave exceptance AND solitude at the same time.  Wow these are fun to play.. and really hard, infact sometimes I wonder if they shouldn't be a karma race.

Anyway my point?  You're right, out smart the half giant, IF this were a perfect game where everyone did their roles right.

I'm not gonna quote underseven's post, it is correct (IMO) but I think, at least for the karma races you have to trust in the staff's judgement in that they gave this person 3 or, what is it for mul, 8 karma for a reason and that odds are that person is gonna try pretty hard and has a reasonable understanding on how the char should be played.

And if they don't, and you have read and think you understand the docs, log and mail mud asking the staff to look into it, I know most of them would be more then happy to do so. And if they find problem with it they will let the player know they need to shape up or else.

X-D, I know someone who played a HG for about 40 days play time.  I believe he was the most badass warrior I've seen in the game...in fact, at one time, nearly solo'd a [censored to protect the somewhat innocent] (I can't give him sole credit, as the other two guys did a few nicks and scratches) and also went around stomping on halflings for fun (and well, I may add).  I'm pretty sure that, in straight up fight, he could waste just about anyone else's character, including any guards in the way, if properly motivated.

The point of all this?  Don't think that just because a HG has a low wisdom that they can't work up some mad skillz, yo.  I find the, "stop picking on half-giants," tone of your post a bit disheartening...they are as balanced as a race that requires 3 karma should be.

Granted, I do think that subdue is a bit broken...agility should factor into it, for acquiring the hold, strength for keeping it, and I don't even know exactly how it works, and may do just that, but I don't think so.  Now, I don't care what you say, yes, their arm moves fast, but they're so freaking huge that it still takes longer for the hand to get from starting to move until finishing the move...aka, more time to react, making it easier to dive out of the way as soon as the hand starts moving towards you.

As far as tricking a half-giant...good luck.  I have seen it done once where someone did something quite stupid because of the slow hamster wheel turning upstairs.  I've also seen the roleplay of the half-giant that I mentioned above, and while I respect the players RP abilities, I found the character on a level that made it pretty much impossible to trick him in anyway...because the player wasn't tricked.  That's a hard type of thing to do...intentionally allowing yourself to be tricked so that you can RP your character being tricked..

Yes, I'm 99% sure I know of the one in which you speak, and I also know, through one specialy stealthy char of my own that the amount of hunting/fighting/halfling stomping this half-giant did in order to get that way would be considered downright twinky by most the players in the game.

I also know without a doubt that my last dwarf warrior at 30days, who killed halflings with such speed and ease as to make them look silly would have cleaned his clock.

But that is not the point, the point is how people have thier chars treat them, my dwarf could have easily taken just about any half-giant I've ever seen, and he feared nothing except not completing his focus. But would he willingly go toe to toe with a half-giant alone? No, hell, he did not like sparring friendly half-giants. Even though he routinly beat the living snot out of them in the ring and that was when he was under 15days. And that's just plain silly IMO.

The point is that the same people who complain about subdue or whatever not being realistic, do not themselves run thier chars in a realistic fashion, that they have thier chars do things that they themselves would NEVER do (unless incredibly stupid) nor would anybody.

That is how this whole thing got started, some frail little human because of his players ooc knowledge decided he could take on an armored creature 10 times his size, alone, with some little toothpicks and he lost, and that is the only realistic thing about the whole deal. He should have lost, he did.

Subdue is not broken, half-giants and muls are not broken, people's perceptions in how they play is what is broken.

Honestly I'm not sure why there is the large gap in karma required to play a half-giant as compared to a mul. Both can be brutal in the extreme and require a high degree of talent and patience to be role-played correctly. Both have cultural/genetic constraints set on them, and must be played accordingly. I've been suprised at the number of half-giant PC's I've seen in the past few months, but more surprising is the number that seem to wander at will, either alone, or together.  HG's may have low wisdom, and not get sparring opportunties as much, but as noted, many get a lot of blood time. They are fearsome in size and strength, and rightly so feared in combat. I've heard people say with regards to both muls and half-giants, in particular the latter, that it takes only one hit.
With subdue as it is, I'm not sure why half-giants like muls are not a higher karma class.

QuoteThe point is that the same people who complain about subdue or whatever not being realistic, do not themselves run thier chars in a realistic fashion, that they have thier chars do things that they themselves would NEVER do (unless incredibly stupid) nor would anybody.

Wrong..

My characters fear, despise, hold jealousy for, and wish dead Magickers. Back away from Half-Giants with wide eyes, make emotes to randomly steer clear in the streets, hide behind the nearest skinny when a Templar's cheeks turn red, and all of that.

Don't judge the way I roleplay, just because my opinion differs from yours.

I know a half-giant and what he could do if he subdued a man, and I also know that a man wouldn't just stand there looking stupid when this half-giant went to grab him. (Which is EXACTLY what the code does as far as fending it off in the way it would actually be fended.)

It's easy to tell us to see the ROLEPLAY side of it as a work-around to the code. But take a look at the lack of roleplay to our characters, who can do nothing against it now, ultimately sacrificing our chances, just so the opposite character can have an advantage.

And it kinda irks me, this is being targeted full on as a Half-giant vs Human issue, when that was never the subject of my original post. This was from any race to any race. Human/Human, Human/Dwarf, Elf/Gith, HG/Mek, ect ect ect... And from PC to NPC as well as PC to PC.

QuoteThat is how this whole thing got started, some frail little human because of his players ooc knowledge decided he could take on an armored creature 10 times his size, alone, with some little toothpicks and he lost, and that is the only realistic thing about the whole deal. He should have lost, he did.

No, actually it's not how it got started. As I said once before, my current character is still alive after 3 months, and has never even been in a situation involving subdue outside of any training they've done.

I'm sorry if someone felt targeted/guilty about the situation and something that happened with them, but I can assure you 100% it had nothing to do with my PC. Coincidences DO happen, and guess what...  :shock: This is one of them! So please stop throwing out blind accusations at me and my intentions on posting?

Somewhat off topic I suppose, But I'd love to see karma shuffled around a bit.

Put dwarves at 1 karma like desert elves, move drov into #2 karma with viv, move ruk up to 3 and move krathis down to 3, move giant up to 4, have elkros and nilazi at 5, mul to 6, sorc at 7 and psi at 8.

Oh, and open up gith at 4 with half-giant:)

Edit:

Calm down IHS, it has been a long thread and even near perfect people such as myself can get messed up now and again. And an instance was mentioned in a post here or on the combat thread about a lone non half-giant pc going after a half-giant.

Quote from: "X-D"Put dwarves at 1 karma like desert elves

Interesting...I imagine this will have some opposition.

QuoteX-D wrote:
Put dwarves at 1 karma like desert elves


Interesting...I imagine this will have some opposition.

Heh, yup, that arguement is worthy a thread all it's own.

Quote from: "X-D"

Quote from: "Uberjazz"

Quote from: "X-D"Put dwarves at 1 karma like desert elves.

Interesting...I imagine this will have some opposition.

Heh, yup, that arguement is worthy a thread all it's own.

Consider it threaded.  No point branching here.

My biggest problem with subdue is that flee is the only escape. I mean, when you go to subdue, you drop your weapons (if you had them in your hands), but the person you're subdueing did not. Is it so crazy to think that said person is gonna be flailing away with his/her weapons at the subduer trying to get free?

I just think there should be an alternate escape from subdue other than flee. Maybe a coded command that let's you attempt to hit so and so in the foot with your weapon, or jab at so and so's waist/neck/arm/anything with your weapon. An armed person who's been subdued isn't gonna just stand there like "Oh, you got me...I guess I'm done. Well, maybe if I wiggle this way and that." Um...no? I'm gonna be using what's in my hands as well as struggling with my body to do whatever it takes to get free of the hold.

My thoughts:

Subdue should function like backstab and sap if you are not in combat. And while not in combat you should be able to subdue an armed individual with no penalty.

In combat, subdue should work like bash, with a penalty for a miss. And should *NOT* work against armed opponents *or* should at a substantial penalty. Sidestepping an armed fighter and wrapping them up should be a hard thing to do in my oppinion.

I think those rules would cover every RP scenario having to do with subdue. The flee-return scenario, sneak up behind scenario, and the subdue in combat scenario are all covered.

Anything I missed?

QuoteIn combat, subdue should work like bash, with a penalty for a miss. And should *NOT* work against armed opponents *or* should at a substantial penalty. Sidestepping an armed fighter and wrapping them up should be a hard thing to do in my oppinion.

Sounds good to me. The whole problem is easily solved: as ERS said in the beginning, subdue should be usable during combat, at a penalty. When that is implemented, the flee; subdue, flee; subdue combo will become twinkish.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"And while not in combat you should be able to subdue an armed individual with no penalty.

Uh, no. Maybe from hiding. You shouldn't be able to subdue an armed individual without them having the chance to hit you, as you have to pass through the range of their weapons to get to grappling distance. If they do hit you, the chances of you pinioning them should be greatly reduced, perhaps even non-existent.

Quirk

Quote from: "Quirk"Uh, no. Maybe from hiding. You shouldn't be able to subdue an armed individual without them having the chance to hit you, as you have to pass through the range of their weapons to get to grappling distance.  If they do hit you, the chances of you pinioning them should be greatly reduced, perhaps even non-existent.

Not if you're a half-giant.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"

Quote from: "Quirk"Uh, no. Maybe from hiding. You shouldn't be able to subdue an armed individual without them having the chance to hit you, as you have to pass through the range of their weapons to get to grappling distance.  If they do hit you, the chances of you pinioning them should be greatly reduced, perhaps even non-existent.

Not if you're a half-giant.

...with telepathic powers maybe.  Last time I checked my PCs were able to hurt half-giants, so why can I now magickally not cut their hand when they reach out for me?  I'm not saying cut it off, just cut at them.

Unless they are subduing me with half-giant breath.

Well, when you bash, you do the same sort of lunge, but that doesn't give a free attack. Sorry, folks, but Armageddon is never gonna be completely realistic. It's hardly even moderately realistic, as it is, but the system works. It's fun.

I think it would be reasonable to a free attack as part of the penalty of subduing during combat, though.

Quote from: "Quirk"
Uh, no. Maybe from hiding. You shouldn't be able to subdue an armed individual without them having the chance to hit you, as you have to pass through the range of their weapons to get to grappling distance. If they do hit you, the chances of you pinioning them should be greatly reduced, perhaps even non-existent.

You know what, I think you are sort of right. My thoughts on letting this be is because an individual could in a conversation and then someone could come up behind then and subdue them. When not in combat, subdue should be treated as a mix of stealth and bruteforce attack.

That said, under this algo, subdue would work like backstab and sap, and would have a delay yea?  So the target would get a chance to hit as they would with a backstab. But you wouldn't be penalized for trying to come up and grab someone who happened to have weapons, and you wouldn't *need* to be hidden as you don't with sab and BS.

So Revised:

Subdue should function like backstab and sap if you are *not* in combat. There being a delay, and a chance at being noticed or failure which would allow the target an attack upon the attacker. The target would still also have the ability to "struggle away" if the subdue succeeded as exists now. Using subdue in this capacity, you should be able to subdue an armed individual with no penalty.

In combat, subdue should work like bash, with a penalty for a miss and should suffer all of the "armed vs unarmed" penalties and bonuses currently in coded into the combat system. Though subduing an opponent in armed combat should be a difficult task.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"Actually, no I don't think your right...reason being is because under this algo, subdue would work like backstab and sap, and would have a delay yea?

Well, sap and backstab are "sneaky" skills. Subdue is not. If you put a delay on it but no penalty, you'd also need an echo at the start of the attempt to subdue (suppressed if the person subduing is in hiding) as well as when the subdue attempt took effect. I think that would work...

The big tough man prepares to subdue you.

> hit tough

You do unspeakable damage to the big tough man's neck.
You lightly slash the big tough man's wrist.

The big tough man fails to subdue you.

Quirk

Quote from: "Quirk"
Well, sap and backstab are "sneaky" skills. Subdue is not.

*note: I edited the previous post a bit...*

A valid point.

There are three RP scenarios for subdue then:

Subdue in combat: Skillfully moving to 'tie' someone up in a fight
Subdue as bruteforce: The HG reach out and maul
Subdue as a stealth attack: Comming from out of sight or behind and grabbing.

I think your scenario is good for 2, the ones I outlined work for 1+3. All three could be variations of the skill you have and would have to be trained seperately.

Subdue_combat
Subdue_force
Subdue_stealth

Thoughts?

Though, I'll be honest, in thinking about this I'm not sure about subdue as a skill anymore period. I mean, essentially this is a death move. Am I correct in saying once you are subdued the "subduer" and bonk you over the head and knock you out? And still keep you held? Is that correct?

If so, I want to add, that if you have someone subdued, you should:

a) Not be able to attack them without the victim getting a simultaneous saving throw with a bonus because you would have to reposition to poise the strike.

I mean, your holding a struggling person. Even you are a HG I can't think of an RP use case where this would be realistic. (all, feel free to suggest one)


And one last point, when the victim *flees* the subdue, they lose endurance. The subduer should lose endurance as well....though not as much.

I think these points would expand subdue into a much more useful and realistic skill, but at the same time balance the power assoicated with the move out a great deal.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"Though, I'll be honest, in thinking about this I'm not sure about subdue as a skill anymore period. I mean, essentially this is a death move. Am I correct in saying once you are subdued the "subduer" and bonk you over the head and knock you out? And still keep you held? Is that correct?

Not quite. In former times someone could draw a weapon while subduing and attack the person subdued, but this was (rightly) deemed a source of much twinking and was removed. I believe currently you can punch someone bare-handed at the cost of losing the subdue, although I suspect they don't get much defence against the punch landing.

More potently, I believe the subduer can remove your weapons and armour while they have you subdued, releasing you at the end to face them unarmed. Being unarmed against an armed opponent isn't generally good, but in this case you may be able to subdue them back and swap back the weapons and armour. Assuming that I'm right on this, it could get hysterically funny fast.

I can understand the view that subdue is a necessary evil because law enforcers have to take people in - but really, if someone is offering armed resistance, it would be more realistic for the soldiers to draw themselves and demonstrate the penalties for resisting arrest.

Quirk

Quote from: "Quirk"
Not quite. In former times someone could draw a weapon while subduing and attack the person subdued, but this was (rightly) deemed a source of much twinking and was removed. I believe currently you can punch someone bare-handed at the cost of losing the subdue, although I suspect they don't get much defence against the punch landing.

Okay, thats good to hear.

Quote from: "Quirk"
More potently, I believe the subduer can remove your weapons and armour while they have you subdued, releasing you at the end to face them unarmed. Being unarmed against an armed opponent isn't generally good, but in this case you may be able to subdue them back and swap back the weapons and armour. Assuming that I'm right on this, it could get hysterically funny fast.

This however, is not. Seriously? Thats a bit cartoonish...I mean, so what I'm holding you up by one leg and pulling your clothes off with my other hand? This should be removed.

Quote from: "Quirk"
I can understand the view that subdue is a necessary evil because law enforcers have to take people in - but really, if someone is offering armed resistance, it would be more realistic for the soldiers to draw themselves and demonstrate the penalties for resisting arrest.

Agreed.

This is not a flame. I respect the right of others to an opinion, and I hope they respect my right. On that note, this is my opinion.

Saying subdue should be removed is bullshit. Secondly, everyone who is complaining about it should look at just how many characters they have had die to it. Thirdly, if your characters are dying often to it, just what the bloody fuck are they doing?

I play nothing but combative characters, and I have never had a character die to subdue. EVER. I have been playing for 4 years, folks. Four. I venture that many folks who do die to subdue do so rarely, and that they are upset because of the helplessness of the situation.

But look at it this way. If you have never been in a fight, or never had training to combat subdue, IRL, you are not going to be ready for the arms that snake out at you in the night and break your neck, nor the thug that walks past you and suddenly turns, grabbing you about the throat and demanding money from you. If you expect to be able to flee a subdue, train it, just like you train everything else.

Simply put, subdue, when they removed the ability to have even a single weapon at hand while doing it, went from being a bit unrealistic, to being underpowered.

I have subdued someone before, so let me outline a senario that I personally witnessed and was involved in. Back in the day, I was a broke mothafucka. I'd just been released from prison, and I had no job and no dope to sell, and I was not in a good position monetarily.

Me and a homie decided that we were going to jack somebody, get some cheddar. It was payday (I think the first), and so we assumed that we could come up fairly easy. We took off down a bike trail. Several folks came by but they seemed as though they were not worth the time. Then a fellow on a bike came by. This fellow was large, and he came hurtling down the trail.

I stepped into his path, and he lost control. We ran over to him, and I wrapped an arm about this fellow's neck. This man was not only bigger, but also stronger than I. But I had him in a compromising postion, and he was unable to fully move his body about in the manner he needed to. I had a knife in the other hand, and I held it to his ear, threatening him, while me and my partner went through his gear. We let him go when we had his wallet and went our way, after making sure he'd not get up again fast enough to hinder our escape.

I don't now condone any of the actions that I took back then, and I am sure many of you will now look at me as though I am a common street thug, and view me with far more disdain than you currently do. Well, I was, back then. But I hope you get the point of the story. Subdueing and striking a mothafucka is not that fucking hard. Granted, I'd add in a check for a strike before if the opponent is armed, but once the opponent is subdued, I have no problem with being able to disarm, unarmor, punch, slap, or give the bastard a noogie.

Subdue, as it is, is a perfectly fine tool, and the fact that you cannot hold a weapon while subdueing is not only unrealistic, but should certianly be enough of a compromise in realism for you purists. I have the feeling that no matter how much is done to change the game, there will always be complaints about what is really best. It's a harsh world, folks. Expect it to not always be fair. Train, prepare, and die.

I don't expect this to end the thread, and I don't expect anyone to suddenly agree with me. I hope that those who do not continue to post about why not, and I hope the discussion continues. Healthy debate is the cornerstone of mental agility.

I don't think anyone has any complaints about subdue on the unarmed. Subdue on those hefting a deadly weapon and ready to defend themselves is where the discussion has inevitably centred, and I don't see anyone claiming it should be easy to take down, bare-handed, a guy with a sword or axe that he knows how to use.

And yes, I have lost at least one character to subdue.

Quirk

My opinion on subdue..

I think of it in terms of a bouncer wrapping a person up and throwing them out of a bar.. It is extremely hard to control a wiggling, kicking screaming person.. no matter what your size..and as far as GH's go.. I think it’s the same, a person should be able to wiggle free. They are smaller and far more agile.
The subduer should -not- be able to fight at all, unless subdued person is released. In fact the -only- way I could see it being an effective tool in combat was it were a two on one situation and the subduer stood there subduing while the other combatant beats you to a pulp.

The efforts that go into holding a person still and forcing them to your will, (which is essentially what subdue is) is difficult, extremely difficult.  Think outside the code.. They are kicking you in the shins, biting, clawing, stepping on your feet… If you are an HG, they may even drop a kick to your nuts..

These are difficult things to deal with… You -should- not be able to concentrate on much else.. Forget about trying to remove armor or weapons, your just trying to keep their arms from flailing. If you need to disarm them, it should be an action all it's own done before subdue. As it is difficult to subdue anyone waving a knife or sword in your face.

Think of this..

The wild haired toothless woman arrives from the west, blades drawn with a crazy look in her eyes; she is clearly drunk..

The wild haired toothless woman viscously attacks you calling you a cheating lying bastard and slices you hard on the arm.

<Disarm Wild>

You disarm the wild-haired, toothless woman, sending her blades flying, as she lets out a shrill scream.

<subdue wild>

You Subdue the wild-haired, toothless woman as she kicks at your shins and shouts profanities.


If you want to disarm them, that should be a separate task all together. And subdue should be only thing you can do.. if that's what you are doing.. This "I can hold a weapon, take off your pants, drink a cup of tea and sap you all because I am an uberwarrior or and HG" stuff  is crap..

We've all seen the cop shows when the crazy drunk trailer woman won't get into the police car.. That is image I think of subdue..Not an easy task at all…

Cops are only allowed to use a certian amount of force and violence to get a person subdued, and often times, today's police err on the side of less violence because of the intense media coverage police beatings receive. It is safe to say that in Zalanthas, such concerns do not surface. Therefore, it is far easier to obtain a hold on someone.

Quote from: "Quirk"I don't think anyone has any complaints about subdue on the unarmed. Subdue on those hefting a deadly weapon and ready to defend themselves is where the discussion has inevitably centred, and I don't see anyone claiming it should be easy to take down, bare-handed, a guy with a sword or axe that he knows how to use.

Yes.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Several folks came by but they seemed as though they were not worth the time. Then a fellow on a bike came by. This fellow was large, and he came hurtling down the trail.

I stepped into his path, and he lost control. We ran over to him, and I wrapped an arm about this fellow's neck

Well...thats not very nice...But if you were to RP that as a scene it would fall under the subdue_stealth category. You are making your way down a path, waiting for your mark.  You see him and type the command and then with the proper "sap/backstab like delay" representing your approach and ability to fail...  you reach out nab him. And proceed with said extortion.

Had you not surprised, him he may not have lost balance. Had you been slower, or the mark a little bit more alert, he might have grabbed your wrist as you came at him and reversed, or darted off and grabbed the fuzz. Had you been a little less strong, he may have squirmed away. Had he been better trained, he might have flipped you over his shoulder.

The exercise as of this far into the post isn't to discuss if subdue has a place, it does. Subdue is not a twinks tool, but right now as it stands, one simple command attempts to realistically represent many, many different scenarios. And where it falls short, work arounds have been found and complaints filed.

At this point, I'm trying to think of simple rule sets that could be coded (hopefully without too much of an overhaul) to make the coded experience of subdue more realistic and better fitted to the varying scenarios we're capable of in a game like armageddon.

Also, breaking into three sets of skills gives it more flexibilty.

For example, you are not a half-giant, as a result, you employeed a knife to disable your quarry. This type of subdue is very different from when the bouncer in a bar picks me up and throws me into the street for drunken tomfoolery. And much further from when I throw a punch at Steven Segal and he grabs my wrist and whips it around my back and me into a wall.

I don't think subdue should go away but I am all for maturity.

As for dieing to subdue...I have been playing since I was senior in college (on and off). The first two years of which were a sorry state of affairs.

I've had about 3 chars die as a result of subdue. Two of which were my fault and conditions of stupid behavior.

The last was much later after I'd learned to play and I while I don't blame the other player, I still think the scene would have been more mature had the subdue code been more mature. The scene still plays in my memory as  Emote-me, Emote-him, subdue, bonk, mantis.

Quote from: "Quirk"
More potently, I believe the subduer can remove your weapons and armour while they have you subdued, releasing you at the end to face them unarmed. Being unarmed against an armed opponent isn't generally good, but in this case you may be able to subdue them back and swap back the weapons and armour. Assuming that I'm right on this, it could get hysterically funny fast.

This isn't true.  Soldiers and such sometimes emote tearing off your pack to search your belongings while they have you subdued (especially if they have a friend with them), but it's left up to the captured player to actually remove the item, and they can refuse if they feel that their character is struggling too hard or something like that.

Well, lets answer a bit here, since this thread seems to be alive still.

Having been a bouncer before, at Dejavu(strip club chain) And a place called Nashvilles(country western, run into some real idiots there) For a little over a year, let me say that first, getting ahold of somebody who is armed and ready for you (knives, broken bottles, clubs) is not all that hard to do, keeping hold of them is also very easy if you are a reasonable amount larger then them, or skilled, somebody who weighs 140lbs to my 200 can squirm all they want, they are not getting away, and for people the same weight or heavier then me, well, there are positions I can put you in that if you do squirm, you hurt yourself, and if you fight hard enough to get away, you will, but with rather majer damage to yourself.

Getting kicked in the nuts by somebody you have subdued, heh, good way to end up with your arm brought around behind you then straight up over your head, it makes a neat popping sound by the way and even the biggest manliest guys scream like little girls then, sometimes puke and or pass out.

While I was bouncing at nashvilles I got to know one of the most frightening men I've ever met, don't get me wrong here, he was a real nice guy, but he was huge, 6'4" 350-375lbs benched over 500lbs, name was john, and nobody he ever grabbed ever got away, and it did not matter where he grabbed them, once saw him grab a guy who was around 6' 190lbs, grabbed him by the elbow, the man (stupid) punched John, John did not let him go, but he did grab the guy's other arm, bring it around behind him, release the other arm, swing him around and directly into the fist that had been lately holding the elbow, then pull the man back and pulled him forward 2 more times into his swinging fist, needless to say, ambulance was called.

As for the game, I see subdue exactly the way it is IRL, if you are not much larger and stronger then the person you are attempting to subdue then speed and skill come into play, if you are much larger and stronger then less skill and simple brute force.

From real life experiance I think that it should be impossible for most things to escape from a half-giant subdue, but even if they can it should be with damage, I mean, if I'm a lot bigger then someone and I have both of thier arms pinned, the harder they struggle, the harder I squeeze.

If I was 12 feet tall and 2000 pounds and I was holding something that weighed 200 pounds, They would be crushed like a tomato before I let go.

Currently, subdue is underpowered for every race and way too easy to escape from, I still have not figured out how a halfling escapes the grasp of a half-giant, agility means nothing once subdued, again, at least in real life.

Oh, and I've not lost a char to subdue in all my years of play, nor have I killed another pc in that manner.

Quote from: "X-D"let me say that first, getting ahold of somebody who is armed and ready for you (knives, broken bottles, clubs) is not all that hard to do, keeping hold of them is also very easy if you are a reasonable amount larger then them, or skilled

There aren't a lot of them out there, but I suspect, X-D, were you to come up against someone who knew something about knife fighting and had one in their hand, and tried one of those grabs, you'd be gutted like a fish. There's a world of difference between a drunk with a broken bottle and a skilled knife-fighter.

Quirk

Quote from: "X-D"let me say that first, getting ahold of somebody who is armed and ready for you (knives, broken bottles, clubs) is not all that hard to do.

Don't take this as flame, but that honestly strikes me as nonsense. I don't care how big you are if someone is has two firm hands on basatrd sword and you try to use one on one bulk to over power them your are going to get one in the gut.

You ability to wrap them is going to be based on finess and speed or getting the drop.  I trained to fight people with weapons and none of the techniques introduced to disarm and subdue an aponent with a blade or club have anything to do with directly engaging a ready target and over powering the person unless you think you'll be wearing heavy armor and/or are heading toward them in armed pack prison guard style. (which may be the case on zalanthas)

It's way to dangerous and you will open yourself up to injury.

I'm not against the idea of an attack of opportunity for somebody attempting to subdue an unarmed opponent.

What I am against is the real reason you all want this to be implimented.  To penalize half-giants.  You don't like it that half-giants are so good at subdue, and even though all your example of so-called realism involve humans, its half-giants that you're really after.  And none of your examples would really apply quite so well if you used half-giants.

If this proposition took into account the size, strength, and toughness of the attacker, then I wouldn't mind it so much.

But what you suggest is that the defender gets a free attack if somebody attempts to subdue them.  If the attack hit, then the subdue would fail.  Lets drop all pretenses.  The attack would never miss, because of the way unarmed combat works.

That would mean that some dagger-wielding dwarf would be just as defensively capable as a human with a halberd.

If you can factor in all the variables, then hell.  Why not?  But if you're going to continue your misguided quest to balance a race that was never intended to be balanced, then I say forget it.

I have no idea where this discussion is really going, but since we are all sharing:

As someone who works part time at a mental hospital, if you have enough even minimally trained people you can -almost- always subdue anyone and often do it safely for all involved.  Subdueing someone without injuring them is harder than just subdueing someone by the way.  I do not specifically know about a six foot sword in the hands of someone well trained, but I expect once surrounded he'd be subdued just as easily as a person with a small sharp object or a sock with change in it, a professional boxer, or someone with his nails filed into points.  Ten people with twenty hands, twenty eyes, ten brains, and 1500+ pounds of flesh are just too much to handle.  One person gets an opportunity to get a hand on you, and then rest grab you in a split second.  And thats without them doing -very- effective things like throwing a blanket over you(risk of suffication though) or distracting you.  Once you get grabbed no matter what you see in combat movies you aint doing shit except spitting, trying to bite, or trying to wiggle your torso a little.  Do any of those and you will quickly find yourself sprawled on the floor with the 1500+ pounds of flesh on top of you in addition to holding you.   You end up in a bed with your arms, legs, and waist ("5 point") strapped with padded leather to the bed for a few hours and injected with some real good drugs to help you calm down.

Anyway.. just wanted to join the crowd and throw out some more details to pointlessly argue about.

Rick

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"What I am against is the real reason you all want this to be implimented.  To penalize half-giants.  You don't like it that half-giants are so good at subdue, and even though all your example of so-called realism involve humans, its half-giants that you're really after.  And none of your examples would really apply quite so well if you used half-giants.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Feel free to suggest which examples that don't hold up for a half giant...or another we've failed to point out. I'm open to suggestions.

Quote from: "Lerl"
Ten people with twenty hands, twenty eyes, ten brains, and 1500+ pounds of flesh are just too much to handle. One person gets an opportunity to get a hand on you, and then rest grab you in a split second.

No arguements there, I'm been strictly considering 1 on 1 examples. I don't know where to even begin in reference to a swarm of individuals all trying to subdue one person. Maybe when consectutive attempts are aimed at the same person in given peroid could give a bonus? But no doubt, the mob rules in all these scenarios.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"I'm sorry you feel that way. Feel free to suggest which examples that don't hold up for a half giant...or another we've failed to point out. I'm open to suggestions.

Oh, don't be sorry.  You're acting as if I hate you more than I hate everyone else in the world.

Anyway... here are the examples I've seen on this page alone, after scanning it briefly.

QuoteI don't care how big you are if someone is has two firm hands on basatrd sword and you try to use one on one bulk to over power them your are going to get one in the gut.

If you're skilled enough, sure.  But as I've already pointed out, skilled warriors generally aren't vulnerable to being subdued by half-giants as it stands right now.  In my opinion, nothing needs fixing.

Besides, that statement conveniently overlooks the inherent difficulty in stopping a half-giant with just one blow.  Maybe you'll get a single attack in, but that's all your getting.  After that, you belong to the half-giant.

QuoteYou ability to wrap them is going to be based on finess and speed or getting the drop.

The poster in this instance refers to their experience in a training facility that I can only assume doesn't cater to any half-giants.

QuoteThere aren't a lot of them out there, but I suspect, X-D, were you to come up against someone who knew something about knife fighting and had one in their hand, and tried one of those grabs, you'd be gutted like a fish. There's a world of difference between a drunk with a broken bottle and a skilled knife-fighter.

Good for you.  You have now stabbed a half-giant in her palm with your highly inadequate dagger.  Now what?  That's a good example of a situation where even a skilled warrior couldn't effectively do anything besides getting the fuck out of Dodge.

QuoteGood for you. You have now stabbed a half-giant in her palm with your highly inadequate dagger. Now what? That's a good example of a situation where even a skilled warrior couldn't effectively do anything besides getting the fuck out of Dodge.

Take perhaps a sharp shard of glass to make it more arm-like, about the size of a knife.

That'll be about the size of a sword sticking into a half-giant's hand.

Stab it into your palm with all your strength, or stab it into the palm of any of the world's toughest men while they're reaching for you...

I -seriously- doubt that their reaction is going to be to keep reaching.

QuoteWhat I am against is the real reason you all want this to be implimented. To penalize half-giants. You don't like it that half-giants are so good at subdue, and even though all your example of so-called realism involve humans, its half-giants that you're really after. And none of your examples would really apply quite so well if you used half-giants.

Penalize half-giants? No, it's to put things in a fair perspective.

If someone is going to break away from combat and come back to subdue you, they're putting you at a major disadvantage right there. Because you're no longer attacking, you're standing there in the room thinking this opponent just fled, only to see them march back in and subdue you, while your trained warrior doesn't do what he would do, (Because in all effect, he's still in combat right? I mean, they didn't really flee down the road, they only fled so they could get that subdue attempt in during combat.) and strike out against it.

QuoteI -seriously- doubt that their reaction is going to be to keep reaching.

No, if it is a half-giant, they are going to reach for your head instead and pull it clean off...but oh, code does not support this either.

QuotePenalize half-giants? No, it's to put things in a fair perspective.

Yes penalize half-giants, because there should be -nothing- fair about a tiny little human with his little toothpick sword fighting something 10+ times his size with hands, thumbs, weapons as big or bigger then the man and a brain, not a very good brain to be sure, but better then any animal's.

You want a fair perspective, Fine, make subdue harder, but let half-giants be able to rip a humans limbs off once he does have him, or let him ep that human that is smaller then his normal weapons and lay about him smashing that bit of bone and flesh into whatever he wants, and then throwing it at something/somebody with all the force 2,000 pounds of muscle can manage.

Thats a fair perspective.

Fact is, nobody in game uses subdue to kill (or extremely rarely) Except Muls and half-giants or other races working in groups. one on one two humans, one armed, the other subdues, if the subduer attacks subdued, he gets a hit, odds are the subdued is not out cold, he then gets a couple free rounds of attack against an unarmed person before the other's attack lag wears off. So, it is rarely, if ever used by anything but half-giant and mul.

So, this thread -is- directly targeting them.

QuoteThere aren't a lot of them out there, but I suspect, X-D, were you to come up against someone who knew something about knife fighting and had one in their hand, and tried one of those grabs, you'd be gutted like a fish. There's a world of difference between a drunk with a broken bottle and a skilled knife-fighter

yes, there is, but in the real world, skilled knife fighters are rare in the extreme, though I have met some that claimed it (snort).

And on zalanthas, news flash, The People Do Wear Armor....imagine that.
The giants wear especialy heavy and thick armor, something else nobody bothered mentioning when they talked about a human lopping off a giant's head or hand...--Well, somebody did, ERS or malifaxis I think mentioned it was silly, specialy if wearing neck armor--

I really wonder why I bother sometimes though, for the in game stuff or the real world stuff, real world, most the people talking do not have -near- enough if any real experiance in what they are attempting to talk about, book reading only goes so far, training in a nice safe gym/dojo, whatever is near meaningless, I can't even begin to remember how many "deadly martial artists" I've crushed in jail/bars/street.

Injuries, Bet your sweet ass, I got them, scars, joint damage, bone damage, teeth damage, but taking the damage does not mean that you fall on the floor and cry, or stop what you are doing and hold the injury, no, it means you Fuck them up beyond all recognition.
Wanna see something funny sometime, watch the reaction from somebody with a can of pepper spray when you don't stop, don't flinch when sprayed and take the can away and beat them with it right after slamming your forhead into thier nose, basicly causing thier face to explode, Another one is when you do get stabbed in the chest with a broken bottle and you grab the stupid wannabe mugger's arm pull him forward and slam your elbow into his throat causing this neat wet cracking popping noise.

Bah.

QuoteQuote:
I -seriously- doubt that their reaction is going to be to keep reaching.



No, if it is a half-giant, they are going to reach for your head instead and pull it clean off...but oh, code does not support this either.

Half giants are dumb, not numb. If you stab a sword into their hand, they aren't gonna be like. "Uh oh, antbite!" They're mroe than likely going to feel a very real pain in their hand, and withdraw it...

But then again, they might not, which means an attack to stop the subdue would have obviously failed...

But instead of having a chance to defend against that, the victim doesn't get a chance. He's all of a sudden stopped combat so this big bastard can grab him, and isn't going to raise his swords to stop it.

----

As far as your point on equiping a human, smashing, ect ect... I think that'd be great, and very likely. (would be funny from a watching down the street perspective too  :lol: )

I do believe that everyone is forgetting something...

From 'help race_human'

Quotehumans stand between around 65 to 75 inches in height

From 'help race_half_giant'

Quotestand roughly between 120 and 150 inches tall

A half giant is not 10+ times anyone's size.  A half-giant is at MOST under 2.5 times the size of a human...that is the largest half-giant versus the shortest human.  They should not be as advantaged as some people think.

Quote from: "spawnloser 2lazy2login"I do believe that everyone is forgetting something...

From 'help race_human'

Quotehumans stand between around 65 to 75 inches in height

From 'help race_half_giant'

Quotestand roughly between 120 and 150 inches tall

A half giant is not 10+ times anyone's size.  A half-giant is at MOST under 2.5 times the size of a human...that is the largest half-giant versus the shortest human.  They should not be as advantaged as some people think.

Yep.  Has anyone here tried to subdue a raging child?  It is -not- easy.

Quote from: "spawnloser 2lazy2login"I do believe that everyone is forgetting something...

From 'help race_human'

Quotehumans stand between around 65 to 75 inches in height

From 'help race_half_giant'

Quotestand roughly between 120 and 150 inches tall

A half giant is not 10+ times anyone's size.  A half-giant is at MOST under 2.5 times the size of a human...that is the largest half-giant versus the shortest human.  They should not be as advantaged as some people think.

The helpfiles don't mention that a half-giant weighs ten times as much as a human, on average.  Please don't confuse the issue further, it was bad enough when Quirk falsely stated that you could subdue somebody and then strip them naked.

Besides, if you think that being twice as tall as a human isn't a significant advantage, you're dead wrong.  Why does unarmed combat suck so bad?  The answer is reach.  A blade can extend farther than a fist, and that forces the poor guy using his fists to stay on the defensive.  On the other hand, the difference between a half-giants reach and a humans reach is vastly greater.  If the code was consistent, then a half-giant would get the same bonus against everybody that everybody already gets against unarmed opponents.  Only on a greater scale, since a half-giant has a superior reach.

Makes you wonder sometimes, I know I've never said a Half-giant was ten times taller, only ten times larger.

What is the range for human, 7-10 tenstone? range for giant is what, 75-95 tenstone? lets see, little math here.

ave would be 8.5 for human and 85 for half-giant, now, 8.5 goes into 85...hhhmmm, GASP, OH MY GAWD, TEN TIMES!!

Grumble.

Quote from: "X-D"What is the range for human, 7-10 tenstone? range for giant is what, 75-95 tenstone? lets see, little math here.

6-9 tenstones versus 75-90.

Fanboy.

Sit back and think about that one for a bit, Slade.

That's harsh, man.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"I'm not against the idea of an attack of opportunity for somebody attempting to subdue an unarmed opponent.

What I am against is the real reason you all want this to be implimented.  To penalize half-giants.  You don't like it that half-giants are so good at subdue, and even though all your example of so-called realism involve humans, its half-giants that you're really after.  And none of your examples would really apply quite so well if you used half-giants.

If this proposition took into account the size, strength, and toughness of the attacker, then I wouldn't mind it so much.

But what you suggest is that the defender gets a free attack if somebody attempts to subdue them.  If the attack hit, then the subdue would fail.  Lets drop all pretenses.  The attack would never miss, because of the way unarmed combat works.

That would mean that some dagger-wielding dwarf would be just as defensively capable as a human with a halberd.

If you can factor in all the variables, then hell.  Why not?  But if you're going to continue your misguided quest to balance a race that was never intended to be balanced, then I say forget it.

This was never meant to be a discussion about half-giants, and didn't even mention them until the second page. My own experiences of subdue abuse came against elves. The last time I had subdue-flee pulled on me was against an elf who'd challenged my (human warrior) PC to a duel outside 'Nak. Getting a royal drubbing, he ran and my PC chased him to just outside the gates of 'Nak, where my PC foolishly attacked him again. This resulted in my PC being wanted, so I retired a little distance. The elf came in and tried the subdue-flee trick. Despite being a considerably better fighter than the elf, I think I landed only one pair of blows when he was slow to subdue after entry, and on the fifth or sixth attempt the elf landed his subdue and pulled me back to the guards at the gates.

An alternative possible means of dispatching someone subdued would be to throw them off the Shield Wall or some similarly high cliff, I suppose. My point is that it's not something that can be twinked only by half-giants.

Nonetheless, since we've brought up half-giants, let's talk about them briefly. Every single argument I've seen here in favour of half-giant subdue would apply even more to a half-giant punching someone, and most of them vastly more to a half-giant whose range was extended by a huge club. Fighting this battle on subdue is clearly silly when it's always going to be harder to grab someone than to land a punch - no matter how big you are. No matter what position you take on the subdue debate, I'm sure you'd agree that the likelihood of hitting someone with your fist and the likelihood of grabbing, pinioning and immobilising them should be within a pretty close range.

So why do half-giants suck so much at landing their blows? The docs suggest that they're very malcoordinated and very slow. They have drawbacks by design. If they didn't have the downside of that immensely poor agility, they'd probably be up there with muls in karma and we wouldn't be seeing many PC half-giants in game.

Incidentally, giants are unlikely to be ten times stronger despite their tenfold increase in mass.  Weight is proportional to volume and hence increases with the cube of the dimension, but strength is proportional to the cross section of muscle for any particular limb and hence goes up with the square of the increase of the dimension. Very big creatures are often slowed in acceleration of their limbs by the difficulty of moving their own weight with the available muscle mass. In short, given a half-giant with a wrist 4 times thicker than the human, the half-giant is likely to be 4 times stronger, not 10, and this is an upper bound given the need to shift the extra weight of the limb.

Quirk

I have subdued a raging child...as another child, smaller than my younger brother who has been a colossus since I was five and he was four.  I whooped my brother on a regular basis.  Why?  Because I was quicker than he was.  He had reach, sure, which was an advantage.  I'm tired of the Half-Giant debate, however, and that is all I will say on that subjet any more, especially considering it was a derailment.

Now, to the subdue/flee/repeat issue...that in itself is not twinky, but how and why it is done is.  I would suggest anyone trying that tactic to have an emote prepared before-hand so that anyone on the receiving end has a picture of what is going on.  That would end their concerns on your possible twinkiness.

Quote from: "Quirk"This was never meant to be a discussion about half-giants, and didn't even mention them until the second page.

That's exactly my point.  You're avoiding mentioning them even though they are the real issue.

Quote from: "Quirk"My own experiences of subdue abuse came against elves. The last time I had subdue-flee pulled on me was against an elf who'd challenged my (human warrior) PC to a duel outside 'Nak. Getting a royal drubbing, he ran and my PC chased him to just outside the gates of 'Nak, where my PC foolishly attacked him again. This resulted in my PC being wanted, so I retired a little distance. The elf came in and tried the subdue-flee trick. Despite being a considerably better fighter than the elf, I think I landed only one pair of blows when he was slow to subdue after entry, and on the fifth or sixth attempt the elf landed his subdue and pulled me back to the guards at the gates.

Well damn.  That seems like its abusing the gate guards as much as its abusing subdue, but the bottom line is that it's pretty twinkish.  A long time ago I had an elf try the same thing against my complete bad-ass of a dwarf warrior, and I kicked his ass to high heaven.  I guess that kind of abuse just doesn't concern me as much.

Quote from: "Quirk"An alternative possible means of dispatching someone subdued would be to throw them off the Shield Wall or some similarly high cliff, I suppose. My point is that it's not something that can be twinked only by half-giants.

Throwing somebody off the Shield Wall.  That doesn't seem so much like abuse to me, so much as it sounds like a really good idea.

Quote from: "Quirk"Nonetheless, since we've brought up half-giants, let's talk about them briefly. Every single argument I've seen here in favour of half-giant subdue would apply even more to a half-giant punching someone, and most of them vastly more to a half-giant whose range was extended by a huge club. Fighting this battle on subdue is clearly silly when it's always going to be harder to grab someone than to land a punch - no matter how big you are.

Yes, that's true.  I think the real inconsistency is not with a half-giants ability to grapple, but with a half-giants inferior unarmed combat ability.  Realistically, I feel it should be closer in power to their grappling, and thus can't be accurately judged in comparison.  The reason being is of course, reach.

Quote from: "Quirk"No matter what position you take on the subdue debate, I'm sure you'd agree that the likelihood of hitting someone with your fist and the likelihood of grabbing, pinioning and immobilising them should be within a pretty close range.

Yes, that I agree.

Quote from: "Quirk"So why do half-giants suck so much at landing their blows? The docs suggest that they're very malcoordinated and very slow. They have drawbacks by design. If they didn't have the downside of that immensely poor agility, they'd probably be up there with muls in karma and we wouldn't be seeing many PC half-giants in game.

All the documentation suggests is that they have a lower agility than humans.  Need I remind you that the documentation also suggests that dwarves have a low wisdom?  I don't see anybody RPing them as raving idiots (outside the Byn, anyway).  All it is, in my opinion, is a balancing factor, and while I don't think it should be removed, it can't be taken too seriously.

My last two posts were meant to have been last posts, sigh, but I have to take this one on, since again somebody feels the must only look at one facet and argue that point without looking at the rest of the picture.

QuoteIncidentally, giants are unlikely to be ten times stronger despite their tenfold increase in mass. Weight is proportional to volume and hence increases with the cube of the dimension, but strength is proportional to the cross section of muscle for any particular limb and hence goes up with the square of the increase of the dimension. Very big creatures are often slowed in acceleration of their limbs by the difficulty of moving their own weight with the available muscle mass. In short, given a half-giant with a wrist 4 times thicker than the human, the half-giant is likely to be 4 times stronger, not 10, and this is an upper bound given the need to shift the extra weight of the limb.

I will take your statement as basicly true, Now, let us use a real estimate of half-giant's shall we?

A half-giant is twice the height (approx) of a human, now, even going with all the rules to figure mass and such for a human 12 feet tall, we only come up with a weight of around 1000-1200lbs, while a half-giant starts at around 1800lbs, this suggests that they have an insanly HUGE amount of muscle verses their height, so given "proportional to the cross section of muscle for any particular limb and hence goes up with the square of the increase of the dimension" then a half-giant has 50% more muscle then needed putting him at 6-8 times stronger at least. To put a bit of perspective on that, if the ave human male can lift 200lbs, that means that a half-giant can lift at least 1,200lbs, so, swinging a 300lbs arm around is easily done.

Another thing to be taken into account, even if a half-giant was only twice as strong, nobody ever thinks about mass/inertia when they talk about escaping from the grasp of such a thing. Ever try to move a 300 pound person? How about pushing two 300 pound arms off you?

As far as the elf is concerned, you admitted to getting some hits off on him before  he managed to subdue your char, the elf took the hits and the risk and he won, shrug.

Quote from: "X-D"Another thing to be taken into account, even if a half-giant was only twice as strong, nobody ever thinks about mass/inertia when they talk about escaping from the grasp of such a thing. Ever try to move a 300 pound person? How about pushing two 300 pound arms off you?

However, an arm is a lever, and as such, it does not take 300 pounds of pressure to move one.

QuoteHowever, an arm is a lever, and as such, it does not take 300 pounds of pressure to move one.

Well, for the person who owns the arm at least:)

QuoteNo matter what position you take on the subdue debate, I'm sure you'd agree that the likelihood of hitting someone with your fist and the likelihood of grabbing, pinioning and immobilising them should be within a pretty close range.

I don't.

When I took martial arts for a bit, there was a guy about the same size (6'2") as me and we were practicing grappling. He was a slippery fuck, bended like rubber. While we were tumbling on the ground (to the point where I had no clue what was up and what was down), I could have easily been able to punch or hit him. The problem was getting him into an immobilized position, however.

Like I said before, this guy must have been made of rubber. I was able to wrap my arm around his neck several times (setting up for a choke or sleeper-like position) and have my forearm close enough to touch his throat. No matter what, he'd still be able to slip out of it. Now, part of it was due to the fact I wasn't trying to kill him. If I was going all out, I'd most likely have gotten him. But the problem was that I wasn't trying to strangle him -- merely immobilize him, such as one can do with the subdue skill. This happened repeatedly. So yes, I could have hit him punching him. But could I subdue him? No.

QuoteTo put a bit of perspective on that, if the ave human male can lift 200lbs

'Lift' is a vague term. From what position? Carrying it? I highly doubt many men can lift and carry two hundred pounds from the ground.

Quote from: "X-D"

QuoteHowever, an arm is a lever, and as such, it does not take 300 pounds of pressure to move one.

Well, for the person who owns the arm at least:)

Primarily, yes, but no matter who's arm it is, its still rotating in a socket.

Quote from: "Carnage"

QuoteTo put a bit of perspective on that, if the ave human male can lift 200lbs

'Lift' is a vague term. From what position? Carrying it? I highly doubt many men can lift and carry two hundred pounds from the ground.

While I agree with all of Carnage's Post, this comment I do not. Lifting 200 lbs from the ground is not that difficult, depending on what the item is. For instance, a 200lb Ball of rock, easily lifted, now, a 200lb 10ft by 10ft plank..That would be a pain in the ass. It all depends on the dimensions of the object you are trying to lift.

Nothing vague about it, I said -lift- I meant -lift- period, end of story and make the object anything you want, though I'd just say a normal gym set of weights.

But if you want to go into it more, any man who can lift 200lbs can carry it, depending on what it is and how it is being carried, I can put a 200lbs human over my shoulder and go quite a distance, I can lift a 200lbs rock, if I can grasp it but I'm not going very far with it.

QuotePrimarily, yes, but no matter who's arm it is, its still rotating in a socket.

It is, but lever or not, socket or not, there is still X amount of mass/intertia to be overcome.

Quote from: "X-D"As far as the elf is concerned, you admitted to getting some hits off on him before  he managed to subdue your char, the elf took the hits and the risk and he won, shrug.

The elf was incapable of damaging my character with a weapon, hence resorting to subdue. The risk he was running by using those tactics was less than he ran by facing me with a weapon in his hand. If you can't see that that is broken, I don't think there's any point in discussing it with you further.

Quirk

Quote from: "Quirk"The elf was incapable of damaging my character with a weapon, hence resorting to subdue. The risk he was running by using those tactics was less than he ran by facing me with a weapon in his hand. If you can't see that that is broken, I don't think there's any point in discussing it with you further.

Perhaps you should have spent a bit less time becoming such a hardcase and more time practicing your grappling moves.  A well-rounded warrior is a living warrior.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"

Quote from: "Quirk"The elf was incapable of damaging my character with a weapon, hence resorting to subdue. The risk he was running by using those tactics was less than he ran by facing me with a weapon in his hand. If you can't see that that is broken, I don't think there's any point in discussing it with you further.

Perhaps you should have spent a bit less time becoming such a hardcase and more time practicing your grappling moves.  A well-rounded warrior is a living warrior.

I doubt that elf had practised grappling particularly. Grappling should not be more effective than using a weapon against PCs. That it is effective owes a lot to the lag on kill and the lack of representation of the fact that the grappler is hurling their body onto a couple of sharp blades.

Quirk

Quote from: "Quirk"I doubt that elf had practised grappling particularly. Grappling should not be more effective than using a weapon against PCs. That it is effective owes a lot to the lag on kill and the lack of representation of the fact that the grappler is hurling their body onto a couple of sharp blades.

Yes, and even though I quibbled on that detail, I agree with you in princible.  Except that half-giants are a seperate case.  They don't generally need to spam subdue/flee, because the first time is usually enough.  So any fixes to limit that I am in agreement with.  However, if somebody rushes in and charges a half-giant, then I think the half-giant should have the opportunity to attempt to grab the charger before he gets within blade range.