Armageddon General Discussion Board

:shock:

After witnessing an event not too long ago, in which a hidden person threw out a couple emotes in a semi-crowded area, I wanted to get a general consensus on how everyone feels one should act in a situation such as this.

Instance: You are sitting at a bar, blah blah blah, when all of a sudden...

>Someone crosses their arms across their chest before leaning back against a shaded wall of the hazy tavern.

BAM! Every pc in the room either scans, emotes a "glances around quickly", or starts getting a little skittish in their role-play, ie asking for their guards to move a bit closer to them.

Now, I'm not saying this is WRONG, just asking what everyone's opinion on this matter is.

Personally, I usually ignore hidden people emoting, for the sake of the fact that they are hidden. Shrug, basically, I try to not break up the flow of play and scan or shit my pants, when, realistically, the pc has done nothing wrong. Hell, most wouldn't even know they are there. The pc, IMO, is just being kind enough to add his bit of flavor to the rp cocktail.

I suppose the end result would be up to the player, acting however their pc would IC. But please, humor me. What would -you- do in a situation such as this, hrrm?

Oh gosh darnit. FJ forgot to add the poll option "Other", where one could insert their sure to be witty comment! Ah well, have at it, and play make-believe that the poll option exists.

For me it really depends on the situation. If I'm at the bar on the east wall, and "someone" does something near the east wall, then I might try and see if I can notice him. I wouldn't scan in that case though.

If someone passes by ME and brushes against my clothes..then yeah I'll scan. Because my character will know someone's gotten THAT close to her and she'll consider it a potential threat.

The same if someone gets too close to whoever I'm guarding, if I'm guarding someone.

Other than that though, probably not.

I'm with Bestatte...if the emote is something that my character would notice, I'll respond as appropriate to the situation.  If the emote isn't, then I ignore it.  That simple.  Seriously, your character didn't see the person that made that emote happen...therefore, there should be no response unless it was something that would clue the character in.

Quote from: "Bestatte"For me it really depends on the situation. If I'm at the bar on the east wall, and "someone" does something near the east wall, then I might try and see if I can notice him. I wouldn't scan in that case though.

If someone passes by ME and brushes against my clothes..then yeah I'll scan. Because my character will know someone's gotten THAT close to her and she'll consider it a potential threat.

The same if someone gets too close to whoever I'm guarding, if I'm guarding someone.

Other than that though, probably not.

When you're in a crowded tavern, people are probably going to bump and jostle you. I don't give the room a good search and look over every time someone rubs against me.

Nod. Good points on both sides. =P

Any opinion from the staff on this matter?

I shat my pants.

Seriously.

I freak out, when I see 'someone'.

Simply because, it might be an IMMORTAL.  And Immortals make me pee.

Quote from: "Carnage"

Quote from: "Bestatte"For me it really depends on the situation. If I'm at the bar on the east wall, and "someone" does something near the east wall, then I might try and see if I can notice him. I wouldn't scan in that case though.

If someone passes by ME and brushes against my clothes..then yeah I'll scan. Because my character will know someone's gotten THAT close to her and she'll consider it a potential threat.

The same if someone gets too close to whoever I'm guarding, if I'm guarding someone.

Other than that though, probably not.

When you're in a crowded tavern, people are probably going to bump and jostle you. I don't give the room a good search and look over every time someone rubs against me.

Even though IRL I don't 'scan' when someone jostles me, I usually tend to give my ass a quick tap to make sure my wallet's still there.

First, you made a bad example. A hidden person wouldn't emote crossing his arms.  Unless he wanted to be spotted. If you're hidden, no one would see you crossing your arms. Therefore, I stick to emoting echoes when I utilize hide.

I hate to be the cruel voice of decent, but if someone emotes like that I don't really care if someone stands up and starts scanning.  This is a coded game, and if you want to announce your presence, I am not going to complain if someone claims they saw something in the shadows and start getting paranoid.  Why do I say this?  I say this because I generally find hidden emotes that can't be responded to inconsiderate.

[rant]
When you hidden emote like that, you put everyone who is there in a very annoying position.  They know know something OOCly and don't know something ICly.  It is jarring to have to sit there and play through while you OOCly realize a thief or assassin could be getting ready to have his way or over hearing an important conversation.  Granted, you should be able to ignore the disconnect as we often do, but it still isn't appreciated.  It is like if one of my subordinates OOCly told me that they were going to kill me.  I would be annoyed that I didn't get to discover this along side my character.  It can be played through, but it is jarring and something to be avoided in my opinion.  It is something of a mini-plot spolier in my opinion, and general not appreciated.

The more serious problem that hidden emoting brings is that you are now placed in a position where you might be forced to react unrealistically or be called a twink.  Consider having a secret conversation some where.  You are paranoid.  Suddenly you see a hidden emote.  Now, you might have been getting ready to scan or take proper steps to ensure you are alone.  Now if you do this, you are going to be labeled a twink.  Having someone announce their presence means that doing anything about it is 'twinkish', even though you might have already decided to do something.  Hell, I know there have been times when I am doing something, a hairs on the back of my neck sticks, and I check to make sure I am alone.  Once someone has announced themselves, you are robbed of the ability play a little paranoid.  You are robbed of being able to react on gut instinct because it is no longer a gut instinct.  You know someone is there now, and you know if you take proper steps you will find them.  In essence, when you hidden emote, you potentially force your victim to either act like a twink and get someone complaining on the boards about people scanning after they hidden emote, or go out of character and not react to a gut instinct.

That is not to say that all hidden emoting is bad, but as a general rule I don't hidden emote unless it is something someone can respond to.  If you would be pissed off if someone responded to it, do everyone a favor and don't emote, just think it.  For that reason, if someone decides to cross their arms while they are hidden or what not, that is fair game in my opinion to claim you saw something suspicious moving in the shadows.  Assuming that you saw something funny puts you and your character back on the same footing.

[/rant]

Personally, I haven't seen anyone freak out in the presence of 'someone' for months.  Most of the time someone makes an emote, everyone else is rather calm and collected, in my opinion.

My apologies Rindan.  I did not know I was complaining on this thread, if, in fact, you were referring to me in your post.

I was not refering to anyone one instances in particular and don't recall any instance of it happening to me in a while.  I don't mean to offend if anyone gets their kicks that way, I just personally greatly dislike it for the above reasons.

Most of the time, if someone emotes while hidden, I have no problem with any given reaction.  I might ignore it.  I might stand up and scan.  I might emote looking around, but not actually use the scan skill.  Whatever seems appropriate to the situation, basically.

In the instance of the guy folding his arms and leaning against the tavern wall... it's a crowded tavern.  I'd probably ignore it.  In the instance of a clandestine meeting, and someone emotes crossing their arms, I'll probably emote and say something to indicate I heard something suspicious, then scan.  If someone casually brushes by me in a crowded street, I might emote looking around, fingering a weapon, something to that effect.

I think any reaction is acceptable.  If someone emotes instead of thinks while hidden, I don't think they've got any room to complain about the results.

I voted shit my pantaloons - my golden pantaloons.

In never effects my character, but I will admit it makes me nervous.

Sometimes it is just another one of those newbie 'rinth assassins looking to show off that they have, in fact, succeeded in using the hide skill and that I should fear their mad skills. However, it could be the Sage or a Sage-like person... and I will leave it at that.

Once more, I'll advocate the ability to emote while hidden. I feel a need to emote while hidden, often, and it annoys me when I cannot because it will draw OOC attention to what should be IC. Yes, one can use think, but it just is not the same thing.

A "secret emote" command that displayed the emote only to those capable of seeing the PC would be a fine thing. But everyone's said this time and again, so the only reason I can see for there not being one is that it must be awkward to implement with the code as it currently stands.

Quirk

Quote from: "Quirk"A "secret emote" command that displayed the emote only to those capable of seeing the PC would be a fine thing. But everyone's said this time and again, so the only reason I can see for there not being one is that it must be awkward to implement with the code as it currently stands.

I agree.  I think maybe either there's something I'm missing or there's confusion about the idea of a hidden emote.

Basically, anyone who could look in the room and see the hidden person would also see the emotes.

It makes perfect sense to me because there would be no grey area as to whether or not you were being twinkish for noticing something and hidden PCs might feel more free to emote.

How cool would it be to see hidden emotes of a cloaked figure sneaking up from behind a noble that you hated, and doing your level best to keep that noble from turning around?

Rindan basically voiced my perspective on this perfectly.

As for myself, when "Someone" starts emoting, I usually get up and leave the room (after checking my inventory as someone else mentioned above), as this is how I typically handle what I consider jarring RP by the players around me.

-- X

I really think it depends on what "someone" is emoting. I also think people are quick to jump to conclusions and make blanket statements or decisions on how they'd react to something, and don't consider the "it depends" answer nearly enough.

If I see:

Someone chucks a rotten petoch fruit in the rangy ranger's direction from the back of the angry crowd.

I'm gonna RP with that. It's totally reasonable, it isn't twinkish at all in my opinion, and it's fun IC comedy.

If I see:

Someone waves at you.

I'm gonna be annoyed OOCly, because if my character -does- notice that someone is waving at her, she's also gonna notice a little more detail than just "someone."

So again, it depends.

QuoteAs for myself, when "Someone" starts emoting, I usually get up and leave the room (after checking my inventory as someone else mentioned above), as this is how I typically handle what I consider jarring RP by the players around me.

I hope you were joking, X.

Your character wouldn't get up or check his inventory due to actions he didn't notice. In a crowded tavern, I imagine several VNPCs brush by your chair every hour, but the instant a player is courteous enough to emote doing it you abuse OOC knowledge of the situation and scramble away?Nothing personal, but that's probably the most twinky thing I've ever seen someone confess to on these boards.

Think about it - what does your character know? That someone touched their cloak. What do you know? That (OMGWTF) a PC tried to thief me, time to bail and check pockets ASAP! Screw roleplay, I might have lost my ph4t l00tz!

I've been stolen from before - and courteously given an emote or two togo along with it - and despite my knowledge of the situation, my character never batted an eye. Someone touched his shoulder and he did little but cast a quick glance in that direction before brushing the situation off and returning to his conversation without a second thought.

I'm not trying to come off as "holier than thou", but for an immortal to advocate the blatant abuse of OOC knowledge really offends me.

QuoteSomeone chucks a rotten petoch fruit in the rangy ranger's direction from the back of the angry crowd.

Muahahahhahahahaha.  Thanks, B.

Personally, I judge it on the circumstances.  If the emote is somehow obvious, or in what I determine to be my characters range of vision, then perhaps I'll emote that I catch some motion.

But I never, ever, get up and start scanning.  Well, okay, I HAVE in the past, but I won't now or again... those were during my newb days.  Well... my earlier newb days, since I'm still a newb, and will be until I die IRL (at which point I hope to have karma and come back as something cool... like a cat.  Or a lemur.  Lemur rock.  As long as it's not a french lemur... but I digress.)

If your PC is standing, on guard, or on watch at the bar or something, sure, stand up and scan, no skin off my back.  It's just not something I would do.  Unless I were standing, on guard, or on watch at the bar or something.

Sorry, 2:30 on Thursday, been drunk for two hours.  I ramble.

I once had a dwarf merchant who was robbed blind, he almost starved to death but managed to survive,  he turned into a paranoid little bastard.  He refused to talk to anyone in a cloak or veil, would jerk at random vnpcs, and assume that somebody brushing by him was a thief.  This was before think, and I was accused of being 'twinkish' ooc by a thiefy type one time who did that whole someone thing and had my character react to it.   (I think he was killed by that same PC and a few of his friends later :) I thought it was fun, paranoid delusions being proved right and all that)

My point is that it's just as twinkish to assume that said character doesn't have a reason to be paranoid.  This a place where taking a wrong step can and will kill you!  Being at least a little paranoid is a survival trait, and it could easily be an assassin as a some random thief.  

The only time I emote while sneaking or hiding is when I start doing it, or when I stop; or if enough people obviously noticed me.  (though recent posts have convinced me that I need to use think a lot more, if only to explain my actions to those who are always watching! emote glances around furtively)  Or if ooc I feel my character messed up and want to spice up life a little bit. (which I tend to do from time to time)


Someone slips on a discarded fruit peel, briefly brushing his hand against the rich ass nobles fat shoulder, and slipping back into a crowd of people.

edit
(I think I remember a thread where I posted almost this exact message a year or so back? :) )

I'm with Supreme Allah on this. Don't get up and leave, denying the situation rp. Just doesn't seem right IMO.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"Your character wouldn't get up or check his inventory due to actions he didn't notice.

If I didn't notice it, why did you emote it?  Or did you emote it because you want for me to arbitrarily decide whether I percieved it?  This is precisely the Catch-22 you create for your viewer when you emote while hidden.  That's why I left.  And yes, I'm serious.  You're basically telling me you've done something that by your standards of RP I'm not permitted to react to (because, you're hidden, I didn't notice "it" (where "it" is whatever you emoted), and still expecting me to stay there and endure the situation?  No thanks.

Quote from: "Forest Junkie"I'm with Supreme Allah on this. Don't get up and leave, denying the situation rp. Just doesn't seem right IMO.

Hmm, that's funny.  I thought I wasn't allowed to react?  Thus, no RP.  Until the code supports a "hidden emote" that is only visible to the people who can see you (via scan, perhaps or whatever other means), "Someone emoting" essentially puts the viewer into an impossible/unplayable situation.

-- X

p.s. -- Both of my posts on this subject are my perspective as a player, not staff.

Xygax, if someone emotes stealing from you, for example, what decides whether you notice the theft itself is the steal command and subsequent skill checks.

Does it say you caught me, or noticed anything unusual, or does it say nothing?

If all the game tells you is that "someone touched your cloak" then I, as a player to another player, expect you to react according to that rather than any OOC desire to protect your character's possessions.

That the RP is jarring is no excuse for otherwise. My character getting killed has jarred me several times, but that doesn't mean I'd step into the other room and quit out to prevent it.

The bottom line is that it's a judgement call on the player's part.

Would you notice just some random faceless VNPC sidling through the crowd on the other side of the tavern?

Would you turn and look over every square inch of the room at the sight of someone you couldn't immediately identify?

Would you stand and run outside, wildly patting yourself down if someone in the middle of a bustling tavern crowd lightly brushed your shoulder?

If your character would do these things, then by all means, do them! That's called roleplay, and I support it one hundred percent.

But for a player that is an immortal - whose opinions will always always always be taken with some amount of authority - to say that he, as a player, will break character, get up, leave, and make sure he hasn't lost anything due to a "someone" emote is in my opinion setting a horrible, horrible example for less experienced roleplayers.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"Xygax, if someone emotes stealing from you, for example, what decides whether you notice the theft itself is the steal command and subsequent skill checks.

Exactly.  So I don't need your emote to cloud the issue.  You and I can -both- let the game decide that for us.  There's even a message in the steal code that indicates feeling someone's hand on your belongings and not knowing who that is.  If you emote ":brushes %xygax cloak" then you're deciding for me (without regard to the code) that you failed your attempt.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"Does it say you caught me, or noticed anything unusual, or does it say nothing?

If all the game tells you is that "someone touched your cloak" then I, as a player to another player, expect you to react according to that rather than any OOC desire to protect your character's possessions.

Wanting to protect my character's possessions is almost always both an OOC AND and IC desire.  Very few PCs actually -want- to lose the things they've killed and risked their lives to obtain.  Calling my motivations entirely OOC misses the point that my _character_ also noticed someone "brushing a hand over his cloak".  And since that otherwise NEVER happens to him, you can fairly expect him to react to it.  If you emote it, and I percieve it, expect a reaction.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"That the RP is jarring is no excuse for otherwise. My character getting killed has jarred me several times, but that doesn't mean I'd step into the other room and quit out to prevent it.

I'm not sure the situations parallel exactly.  Fleeing and quitting out to avoid a fight is abusive because I'm removing my character from the game-world entirely, thus denying you any opportunity to continue interacting.  Getting up and leaving a tavern to avoid what I consider poor RP (and yes, I'm saying I think you "Someone"s are RPing poorly :) doesn't entirely take me out of the situation.  You could still pursue me, you could still steal more.  You could still emote more.  I've never, as far as I know, been followed out of a tavern by a "someone-emoter", nor interacted with them in any meaningful way later.  This, to me, seems to indicate that they aren't really after meaningful interaction, they're just showing off their "hide" skillZ.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"The bottom line is that it's a judgement call on the player's part.

Would you notice just some random faceless VNPC sidling through the crowd on the other side of the tavern?

Would you turn and look over every square inch of the room at the sight of someone you couldn't immediately identify?

Would you stand and run outside, wildly patting yourself down if someone in the middle of a bustling tavern crowd lightly brushed your shoulder?

If your character would do these things, then by all means, do them! That's called roleplay, and I support it one hundred percent.

Do you emote brushing into NPCs/VNPCs as you walk through taverns?  I've -never- seen a Someone do this.

If I emoted that I caught "Someone"'s hand in my pocket, would you return whatever you'd stolen?

If I emoted beating you senseless and taking your belongings, would you submit?

Armageddon offers CODED results to actions like this specifically because of this "I _felt_ it!!"  "No you didn't!!" BS.  Use them, or go play a MUSH.  :)

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"But for a player that is an immortal - whose opinions will always always always be taken with some amount of authority - to say that he, as a player, will break character, get up, leave, and make sure he hasn't lost anything due to a "someone" emote is in my opinion setting a horrible, horrible example for less experienced roleplayers.

I didn't say I was breaking character.  It's easy to come up with an endless stream of legit IC reasons to leave a crowded tavern.  Especially if people I can't see are fondling me.

-- X

Here's a pretty dilemma, it seems.

Let's talk about the player who gets stolen from, with no emotes from the thief.  They complain about twink thieves not giving them a chance to rp the scenario.  So the thief emotes, and then someone else complains because there was a hidden emoter.  And then the thief complains, because half the room scanned after the hidden emote.

How to solve all of this?  Quit complaining about it.  Period.  If you're the person getting stolen from with no emotes, remember that there's more to a theft than just interacting with the thief.  If you're the person seeing the hidden emotes and complaining, remember that you hated it even more when stuff just disappeared from your inventory.  If you're the thief, remember that emoting while hidden is giving everyone else license to react as they see fit.

So what if you're suddenly faced with having to deal with OOC knowledge IC?  You deal with it all the time anyway.  How is it really any different than your newest character running into someone that your previous character knew (or was killed by)?  Jarring?  Maybe.  Unavoidable?  At times.  Can you deal with it?  You know you do.

Seriously, break the vicious cycle, screw the complaints.  They're circular, and a lot of times they stem from people seeing a reaction that wasn't what they wanted or anticipated, so instead of just dealing with it, they call foul.

QuoteI don't need your emote to cloud the issue. You and I can -both- let the game decide that for us. There's even a message in the steal code that indicates feeling someone's hand on your belongings and not knowing who that is. If you emote ":brushes %xygax cloak" then you're deciding for me (without regard to the code) that you failed your attempt.

No, I'm expressing - successful or not - what exactly I did in the coded action, Xygax. If we let solely the code express everything we do, then why do people emote while sparring, or crafting, or anything else? Why should theft have to be any different?

QuoteWanting to protect my character's possessions is almost always both an OOC AND and IC desire. Very few PCs actually -want- to lose the things they've killed and risked their lives to obtain. Calling my motivations entirely OOC misses the point that my _character_ also noticed someone "brushing a hand over his cloak". And since that otherwise NEVER happens to him, you can fairly expect him to react to it. If you emote it, and I percieve it, expect a reaction.

It's not a matter of your perception, it's a matter of your character's perception. There's a very sound difference, and as an Immortal privy to all kinds of IC-sensitive information the rest of the playerbase is not, I'm positive you know it.

As I said, if your character would react to every of the faintest grazing they receive in a tavern as theft then by all means, play it that way, but remember that there are VNPCs and a potentially huge crowd of potentially close-contact people to account for, especially if you're walking through it.

QuoteDo you emote brushing into NPCs/VNPCs as you walk through taverns? I've -never- seen a Someone do this.

Never? I do it all the time actually, Xygax. Not every last one, granted, but I do it and I've seen others do it very, very often in fact. If I steal from an NPC or VNPC, I drop an emote regarding how it was done just the same as I do any other.

QuoteIf I emoted that I caught "Someone"'s hand in my pocket, would you return whatever you'd stolen?

If I emoted beating you senseless and taking your belongings, would you submit?

Armageddon offers CODED results to actions like this specifically because of this "I _felt_ it!!" "No you didn't!!" BS. Use them, or go play a MUSH.

My emote accompanying the steal, as I stated, is a matter of expression. If I failed my steal attempt and you emoted catching my hand, you're damn right I'd play it that way. If you beat me senseless and took my possessions codewise, how could I disagree?

Likewise, if I successfully steal from you without you noticing, and drop an emote along the way you shouldn't have any unusual reaction from that gentle brush on your cloak. You might flip out cause someone touched you, but you won't know how and you won't know why - well, you might, but your character sure shouldn't.

QuoteI didn't say I was breaking character. It's easy to come up with an endless stream of legit IC reasons to leave a crowded tavern. Especially if people I can't see are fondling me.

Should you really make IC excuses for OOC motivations? I gotta say, I'm vaguely reminded of rat-sapping Bynners in the Labyrinth, or stories from the staff of backgrounds that included "Amos hates beggars and thinks they all should die!!" as a justification for killing them.

This is becoming astoundingly amusing. This is how it should be, and while you can say all that you want that I'm not right, or that I should not assume that I am right, this is the bottom line.

Don't emote while hidden unless you are ready for folks who would notice a normal emote to react as though they had just seen something bad happen. Period. There really can be no argument unless you are slow of wit.

You are hidden, and your PC is unseen. Thus, your personal actions should also be unseen. If you do something to affect another NPC, VNPC, or PC, then there is no one arguing that you should not emote. But when you are doing nothing more than picking your motherfucking nose, do not emote.

That is the end of it.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"No, I'm expressing - successful or not - what exactly I did in the coded action, Xygax. If we let solely the code express everything we do, then why do people emote while sparring, or crafting, or anything else? Why should theft have to be any different?

People emote sparring because it adds to the environment.  I'm suggesting people NOT emote their hidden activities because it only -confuses- the environment.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"My emote accompanying the steal, as I stated, is a matter of expression. If I failed my steal attempt and you emoted catching my hand, you're damn right I'd play it that way. If you beat me senseless and took my possessions codewise, how could I disagree?

Express yourself in a think-emote, then...  I don't like these "hidden emotes" anymore than I like people emoting out fist-fights.  When you're emoting as "someone" hidden, you don't know that I -don't- have some prescience that reveals you to me.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"Likewise, if I successfully steal from you without you noticing, and drop an emote along the way you shouldn't have any unusual reaction from that gentle brush on your cloak. You might flip out cause someone touched you, but you won't know how and you won't know why - well, you might, but your character sure shouldn't.

Again (and you haven't really addressed this point), why did you emote it, if I (and no one around me) were not meant to see/react to it?

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"

QuoteI didn't say I was breaking character. It's easy to come up with an endless stream of legit IC reasons to leave a crowded tavern. Especially if people I can't see are fondling me.

Should you really make IC excuses for OOC motivations? I gotta say, I'm vaguely reminded of rat-sapping Bynners in the Labyrinth, or stories from the staff of backgrounds that included "Amos hates beggars and thinks they all should die!!" as a justification for killing them.

You've given me no other alternative, by your own play.  You've placed me in a difficult situation OOCly, expecting me to somehow magickally divine the reaction you expect AND roleplay it out.  When other players emote, they expect (in general) that I am observing their actions, and so don't object when I react to them.  You "someone"s on the other hand are expecting me either to react (but no so strongly that it results in you losing your mark, or getting caught), or to do nothing,  I think that's decidedly unfair.

-- X

The only reason I see why to emote is this.. If someone's PC seems to be watching me.. then I have to do something besides act like a statue, When 'Someone' does something.. it's because someone sees it happening.. I happen to think that pc's do a lot mroe then we can emote for.. or we would be spending our lives trying to RP out thier lifetime.. So by emoting things, it's showing that someone is watching you.. :) Just my thought on the idea.

IMO, it goes both ways though.

Instance: The 'someone' in question gives forth -no- effort to emote, or add nothing in the game. They just sit there, in the tavern, hiding. You're telling me that this is acceptable? You won't criticize them for putting forth absolutely no effort at all to at least interact to some small degree?

If that's true, then hell, my next pc is going to be a sneaky one. They seem to be the easiest to roleplay.

The thing is, doing whatever a sneaky type is doing is adding to the game, even if noone watches him, when done correctly and intelligently.

QuoteExpress yourself in a think-emote, then... I don't like these "hidden emotes" anymore than I like people emoting out fist-fights.

As it stands, Xygax, "someone" emotes are directly supported by the code. Think-emotes on the other hand are not. It's likely a fact that the majority of characters cannot read thoughts, but who am I to assume that noone can? Just because you don't "like" someone emotes doesn't give you the right to disregard the code and the roleplay of others in your crusade against them.

QuoteWhen you're emoting as "someone" hidden, you don't know that I -don't- have some prescience that reveals you to me.

If you could in fact see and identify me, then I would not have shown up as "someone" in the first place, Xygax. This is, quite simply, the work of the scan skill, not any player's individual decision.

QuoteAgain (and you haven't really addressed this point), why did you emote it, if I (and no one around me) were not meant to see/react to it?

I have addressed this point. You were meant to see and react to it, but you were meant to do so in-character, not as a player in defiance of the code.

QuoteYou've given me no other alternative, by your own play. You've placed me in a difficult situation OOCly, expecting me to somehow magickally divine the reaction you expect AND roleplay it out.

I'm expecting you to read what the code gives you and interpret it in-character rather than otherwise. I don't think it's asking that much. Dozens of players I've interacted with in this manner have handled it in an absolutely superb fashion.

QuoteWhen other players emote, they expect (in general) that I am observing their actions, and so don't object when I react to them. You "someone"s on the other hand are expecting me either to react (but no so strongly that it results in you losing your mark, or getting caught), or to do nothing, I think that's decidedly unfair.

Again, it's a judgement call that I believe any player can handle. Knowing "Someone" is there OOCly isn't any more sensitive than knowing some of the things any given player may know from experience that their character does not. As such, I believe it should be handled responsibly.

Your character can see, observe, and react to whatever degree he likes, but do so within the scope of their vision, not your own.

By the way: check out the poll results, Xygax. Though no "stand;n;inv;eq" is offered, I think that's quite akin to the scan option that's currently six feet under in votes. On the other hand, the ignore them would still be steamrolling the other two options if they were combined and doubled.

Granted, the real answer's situational, as Bestatte described, but I think it'd be quite a feat for you to draw from those numbers a conclusion that doesn't directly oppose your given solution.

I think allah has the right of it in most ways.

Xygax wrote:

QuotePeople emote sparring because it adds to the environment. I'm suggesting people NOT emote their hidden activities because it only -confuses- the environment.

I agree with the first sentence.

I disagree with the idea to the second sentence 100% and then some.

You emote to enhance the environment for the other players and -yourself- to enhance the total story/game. Even when hidden you may have to do things, also, just because xygax char does not see the hidden person does not mean mine can't, Xygax, I do not think you react to every non-hidden emote you see, why should a hidden emote be any different? But no, you stated you get up and leave after checking gear, not sometimes you get up an leave, or get up and scan or sit and check eq or sit and do nothing, therefor you do something -strictly- for ooc reasons -and- with what really amounts to ooc knowledge, If you see someone does whatever on your screen and your scan is not picking them up, your PC Did Not See It, end of story.

Now, I'm also going to have to say, the people doing emotes while hidden need to think about them a bit more, using an actual instance just a day or so ago, somebody emoted passing directly in front of somebody else, Myself, I found this poorly done, the hidden person should have then entered a command that would make him vis, It is silly to think somebody walking is not going to notice somebody passing in front of them and even sillier to expect the person to ignore it (though the person did). If hidden I think people should try and do environment style emotes, then it is easy to ignore the someone.

Quote from: "Xygax"Again (and you haven't really addressed this point), why did you emote it, if I (and no one around me) were not meant to see/react to it?

For those people and staff who could see you.

I've never had a PC that could hide well, from what I recall, so it's a mute issue for me personally.

But I would be looking at it from the point of view of a person who could see my hidden PC.  It wouldn't be very cool if I crept up on them and stole their pants while they were able to see me.

I wish emotes by hidden people were only visible by folks who can, through code, look at the hidden person.  It would remove all this ambiguity but still allow the player to interact with those who can see them and also show the logic behind their actions to staff.

I find this debate very interesting, and contrary to Venomz bull-headed post, the right answer is no simple thing.

If you emote while hidden:  People now know something that their characters don't.  This information gives them the OOC information that there is somebody in the room, and furthermore that that character can do nasty things like steal their swords, pin cushion them with throwing knives, or perhaps even call forth sinister magick.  While a poor player might be delighted to be given the warning and take it as a call to immediately type scan ten times or spam walk to their nice, safe clan compound, the rest of us are going to pissed, and rightly so, that they were given OOC information, and thus both the suspension of disbelief and the suspense of the moment are denied to them.

If you don't emote while hidden:  What if you only think you're hidden, but in truth you're standing out to one or more people in the room that can see you through mundane ability or otherwise.  Those people are going to want to know if it looks like you're about to backstab Lord Inbreed, and they're also going to know where your general location in the room is, so they can stay away from you in case you're a pickpocket.  In this case, failing to emote is cheating them out of information that they clearly deserve.  Perhaps they aren't even looking at you, because they'd rather pretend that they can't see you so that they can watch what you're doing.

In a perfect world we wouldn't have this problem, but until we can emote secretly, then we're forced to choose to cater either to those who can see you, or those who cannot.  I'll add here that I don't think there is any room in the game for people who are just emoting to add flavor to their coded actions, even though people may not see them.  If I get stolen from, I don't WANT to know OOCly how it happened, and I certainly don't want to know who did it.  My character getting pissed off and going off to play "smear the longneck" in some dark alley is plenty of interaction for me.  A player of a thief is benefiting the game plenty by enforcing the reality that the city is swarming with thieves, because life is harsh.  They shouldn't think emoting is necessary to the worth of themselves or their characters.

Well, I mean, if we really wanna be gangsters about it, the best way currently for people to know what is up with you who can see you is to set your long description to what you are doing. This way, only those who can see you can know.

I just don't care what anyone says. Emoting while hidden is OOCly wrong, and it is ICly stupid. Your character is hidden, and your private actions are therefore hidden.

I like EvilRoeSlade's post.

I would really like to hear an argument against making emotes made by hidden characters only visible to those who can actually look at the hidden character.  I think from a playability standpoint that would tidy up this situation really nicely.  Obviously it might be different from a coding standpoint.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Well, I mean, if we really wanna be gangsters about it, the best way currently for people to know what is up with you who can see you is to set your long description to what you are doing. This way, only those who can see you can know.

I just don't care what anyone says. Emoting while hidden is OOCly wrong, and it is ICly stupid. Your character is hidden, and your private actions are therefore hidden.

If you had seen that action:

>From the back of the room, someone chucks a rotten petoch fruit over the crowd and lands it square in the other guy's face.

You wouldn't think it was OOCly wrong or ICly stupid. It made TOTAL sense, both IC and OOC, and everyone who was there, that I know of, got a kick out of it, both ICly and OOCly.

I've seen many instances of people who are hidden moving around the room...I see someone running past a templar on the way out.. I see someone pushing through a group of hunters on the way to a corner table. I see someone doing this that and the other thing.

I have no need to know who it is, I have no need to scan, I have no need to make any note of it, in most cases, in an IC way, because what they're doing has no affect on my character directly. It's just atmospheric stuff, and I appreciate it immensely.

When someone does something that affects my character specifically, or someone who I am with, or guarding, THEN I will react ICly to it, because it's either my ass or the ass of the person I'm guarding at stake.

I don't see any problem with any of this at all.

However, if I see someone doing something that jars me from the RP...such as what someone else said - "Someone walks in front of you" - then yeah I'm gonna be jarred and annoyed. If someone is that close to me, then I damned well can see who that someone is.

I'm starting to wonder if folks even read posts any longer before replying.

I said, if it effects other folks, then it is a good thing to emote, as in throwing a fruit, someone laughing at you from the crowd, etc. If you are just picking your nose, scratching your ass or whatnot, it is not.

I said, hidden people should not emote their hidden actions. Only the actions which would be actually seen by someone whom you may be hidden from should be emoted, like, the throwing of that fruit, the laughing...

I mean, how difficult is that to understand? Basically, what I said is what everyone is saying, and yet I get the bullheaded comment and such...

Holy Fuck dude, calm down.

You said, in your -last- post: Emoting while hidden is OOCly wrong, and it is ICly stupid.

You seem to contradict your post at the top of the page, I take it?

In any case, it's cool. No one hates you, or is trying to give you a bullheaded comment, we just kinda disagree. After all, your opinion is as respected as much as anyone else's. =P

I agree with VeNoMz.. They are saying the exact same thing that everyone else is.. Bestatte.. not to pick on you.. but your post restated thiers..

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"I just don't care what anyone says. Emoting while hidden is OOCly wrong, and it is ICly stupid. Your character is hidden, and your private actions are therefore hidden.

I think I understand what you're saying.  The difficulty of people understanding you probably came when you said that, an apparent contradiction to your earlier and later posts.  Perhaps you changed your mind during this whole thing?

Oh, and also, I don't care what you say either.  Though I am confused as to why you're even bothering continuing this debate when you obviously have no regard for other peoples opinions.

Furthermore, besides the example of the rotten fruit, Bestatte also said she had no problems with hidden people emoting entirely for the purpose of breathing life into the environment.  I disagree, and from reading your latest post, Venomz, I would surmise that you do also.  Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that.  Animating the environment should be the task of the unhidden, who won't leak OOC information with their emotes.  As a general rule, I am in favor of emoting, but there is an exception to every rule, and in this case a hidden person is that exception.  That being said, the balance of supporting those who may be aware of your presence and those who may not be is a delicate line to walk, and is a decision that people with the hide skill should make in stride with their specific situations.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Basically, what I said is what everyone is saying, and yet I get the bullheaded comment and such...

Note that my comment had nothing to do with your opinions, simply the fact that you seem to be insisting that you're always right and nobody should disagree with you.  Ever.  An attitude like that puts a chip on my shoulder.

Anyway, this is the last post for the night, and next time I check the GDB I'll likely have already faded into obscurity on this topic.

Toodles!

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"I think I understand what you're saying.  The difficulty of people understanding you probably came when you said that, an apparent contradiction to your earlier and later posts.  Perhaps you changed your mind during this whole thing?

I didn't change my mind, but perhaps I did not clearly state what I truely meant. What I truely mean was that if your actions affect only you, and no other VNPC, NPC, or PC, then they should remain hidden...things like this are fine emotes: em a number of folks laugh at ~nerd, and @ throws a sack of kankshit at !nerd, the leather straps holding the manure within loosening as it hurtles through the air towards !nerd while things like this: em adjusts a strap on ~leather as he shifts his positions within the shadows, watching the room silently are not. The former affects someone else, the latter only you.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Oh, and also, I don't care what you say either.  Though I am confused as to why you're even bothering continuing this debate when you obviously have no regard for other peoples opinions.

Bah...I'm upping my damned post count. You couldn't see through that? Nah, I just have a strong view on many things, and perhaps I'm not used to having to argue my point through, which is truely in itself rather childish...really, I suppose I've no excuse at all.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Furthermore, besides the example of the rotten fruit, Bestatte also said she had no problems with hidden people emoting entirely for the purpose of breathing life into the environment.  I disagree, and from reading your latest post, Venomz, I would surmise that you do also.  Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that.  Animating the environment should be the task of the unhidden, who won't leak OOC information with their emotes.  As a general rule, I am in favor of emoting, but there is an exception to every rule, and in this case a hidden person is that exception.  That being said, the balance of supporting those who may be aware of your presence and those who may not be is a delicate line to walk, and is a decision that people with the hide skill should make in stride with their specific situations.

Exactly as you have said. I support emoting 100 percent, but, if hidden, your emoting needs to take a back seat to the fact that you are now clearly within the realm of code, and this code says that folks have not noticed you...or at least, it seems that way. So, if you are going to use the code to hide, then why use the code to reveal that you are using the code to hide?

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Note that my comment had nothing to do with your opinions, simply the fact that you seem to be insisting that you're always right and nobody should disagree with you.  Ever.  An attitude like that puts a chip on my shoulder.

Oh. Well. Nobody should ever disagree with me. Ever. I'm kinda playing about that. The fact is, however, that without arguments such as we have here at times, things will never get resolved, and I'd never learn anything. I'm always rather astounded when I do learn something new, or gain a new revelation on something, but I crave those moments. I am not really a person who must always be right, but at times like this, it just seems as though the path is so clear and the way so obvious, and it just seems so...astounding that folks could not see it the way I do.

That said, I apologize for the manner in which my posts were presented, but not for my views, which I'll still stand by and still believe were and are ultimately correct.

And, for those watching at home, I like Slade.

The "Hitler" of all GDB discussions.  Settle it with a poll:

Hitler! (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6224)

Simply put, when you hidden emote you are disrupting your victim.  I would rather a hidden person do what they will without telling me, rather then tell me just to make extra sure I don't feel cheated in some way or another about loosing my knife.

There have been many times while playing Armageddon where something I thought was surely a secret turned out not to be.  In fact, I recalled in instances in particular where a conversation I had that I thought was in private some how came back to me in a very bad way.  If someone else had been present at that conversation, I will never know.  I do not know if it was overheard by someone hidden, if I was betrayed, or a mind bender ripped it from my thoughts.  I am glad I didn't know because my role play was not disrupted.  I didn't have to sit there and try and divine the difference between what I suspected and what my character suspected.  We shared the same level of ignorance and it made playing out that event truly fun and exciting.  If someone had OOCed to me that they discovered through X means, I would have been very pissed off.  If someone had done a hidden emote to inform me during the secret conversation, that would have basically been the same as them OOCing to me how they learned.

Hidden emoting when you don't want people to respond is like OOCly telling them your plans in my opinion.  It is like a thief OOCing "Hey, I just stole your knife while you were looking the other way".  It is like a subordinate saying, "I heard your plans to off me, I am going to try and assassinate you before you do."  It is information I don't need and sure as hell don't want.  I don't want the Staff drop down from the sky and tell me the big plot, I don't want the assassin to tell me that he is trailing me, I don't want to know what your character's plans are for me, I don't want to know what the templar is thinking.  I enjoy the ignorance of my character and find the game is at its best when I am as shocked, surprised, and confused as my character.  I don't want the damned OOC information, please don't give it.  I'll happily sacrifice 'big' picture in exchange for a clear view of MY picture.

Take for instance the example Supreme Allah gives, a thief brushing past his victim.  That sounds harmless, right?  No, it isn't.  If the victim is not allowed to respond to that by checking their inventory and checking to see if they were stolen from, then it means they have to treat it like any other person pushing past, which is to say they must ignore it.  Still harmless, right?  Now, consider the OOC information you have just given that person and how that might have disrupted their world.  The victim now OOCly knows not only where he lost what was stolen, but also that it was someone not visible to him, so anyone who is visible is clearly no the thief, and he knows the time of the theft.  That is a pile of OOC information he would have otherwise not of known.  It might have been days before the victim would have naturally realized something was amiss, and the victim could have suspected anyone.  Now, all of that natural fear and suspicion has been robbed from the player OOCly.  Instead of being on the same level as that character with suspicions and fears, the player has to separate himself.  The player has to arbitrarily decide how perceptive their character is and how much they know.  That OOC information you gave robbed the player of a lot, and if that item you stole was important, then  you robbed them a great deal as they already know a great deal about who and how it was robbed.

What did the victim gain in exchange for all of the OOC information dumped on their lap?  They gained the knowledge that at least they were not twinked out of the item.  Bah.  You might feel good in that you covered your ass and proved to someone you are not a twink, but you did it at potentially a great cost to the victim.  The knowledge the item was twinked away was not worth all that was lost from the OOC information dump that occurred.

Please don't share such OOC information.  I would rather risk twinks stealing then I would risk having my vision severely disrupted.  Don't OOC to tell me you are going to plan an assassination, don't OOC me to tell me your templars thoughts, don't OOC me to tell me the grand plot, and don't OOC me through your emotes to tell me what you are doing.  I don't want the OOC information, don't give it.

I said earlier, people doing hidden emotes IMO should stay with environmental emotes.

Also, I really think that "someone" should be replaced with like "something", I personaly think that the someone message is as jarring as the old rescue "Bonzai!".

And by environmental emotes, in case anybody does not know.

A dull creak is heard like someone settling into a chair.

The soft rustle of leaves being crushed slowly can be heard as someone moves in the woods.


Though, they look much better if your sub someone for something, besides, even animals that are hidden, if a staff member causes the animal to emote it still comes across as "someone"

A dull creak is heard like something settling into a chair.

The soft rustle of leaves being crushed slowly can be heard as something moves in the woods.

Oh, one other thing, there is at least one point when I think you -should- emote an action while hidden...Thats when you are about to become unhidden in front of somebody, And those emotes can be quite fun.

em chuckles quietly as he drops from a large branch over %pc head landing easily a few cords in front of !pc and performing an easy bow.

Quote from: "Rindan"Simply put, when you hidden emote you are disrupting your victim.  I would rather a hidden person do what they will without telling me, rather then tell me just to make extra sure I don't feel cheated in some way or another about loosing my knife.

But what if your victim can see you?  But just hasn't bothered to use the look command?

I'd rather err on the side of the victim, personally.  Which is again why [broken_record]I think that emotes made by hidden PCs should only be visible to PCs who could conceivably see them.[/broken_record]

I sneak into a noble's chamber.  The noble is able to see me but instead of doing a look, decides he'll start to emote going through a chest.  He's going through the chest to get a weapon, but I don't know that.  Meanwhile he's also using psi_contact to try and call his guards.

Now, if I emoted sneaking up from behind him he could react accordingly.  But if I don't, because I'm passing out OOC info, as you say, and just type `backstab noble` I've inadvertantly bypassed the fact that he was well aware that I was there and was planning to mount a defense.

And in dealing with a situation where I'm about to kill another PC through those means, I would like to do everything in my power to make sure the scene is handled properly.

Quote from: "X-D"

A dull creak is heard like someone settling into a chair.

The problem with this particular one is that if you aren't actually hidden, it's going to look really strange.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here (surprise surprise!).

There are valid arguements both for and against the use of hidden emotes. There are also valid arguements supporting a change to the existing code to allow for a new and different method of emoting while hidden.

It seems the primary objection to the existing hidden emoting, is that it allows for twinkage. I agree. It does allow for twinkage. But so does ANY emote. So does the combat system. So does clan recruitment. So does the ability to use AIM, ICQ, MSMessenger, and the IRC chat room while mudding.

If the staff spent their energy changing code and enforcing rules to prevent twinkage, Armageddon would be a lousy place to play. I think the responsibilty to play according to the spirit of the game falls on the players, not the code. Twinking should be a rare occurrence, easily noted and checked by staff. From what I've experience so far, it is, and they do.

I will say, though, that I like the idea of changing code so that only people who see "someone" can also see what "someone" is emoting.

1) It's logical.
2) It severely limits the possibility for confusion.
3) It can actually add to the RP atmosphere rather than detract from it (ex. "Hey did you see that?" "What?" "That rotten petoch fruit flying across the room and smacking Rangy in the face." "Nah I guess I wasn't looking. What's that all about anyway?" etc. etc. )
4) It can add even further to the RP atmosphere (ex. "OMG WTF did you see that!" think Hehe he'll never know I'm just making this shit up "What?" "That guy, in the corner! He just slipped spice into the Oash Aide's hand as she was walking out!")

So if anything, I support the suggestion for change. I still maintain that atmospheric hidden emotes are fun to watch (I've never had the guts to try it in front of anyone so I can't make the claim from the "giving" end), and done *responsibly* add a lot of oomph to the RP environment.

At the same time, Bestatte, you must realize how much such a change would affect (effect?) interaction for hidden characters. I'm really tired of posting here, but just as an example, that entire petoch fruit incident could not have happened if this change was in place.

And I do not support any such change that would eliminate a character's ability to interact simply because they are hidden, but I'd welcome an emote command that allows only those who can see the said "someones" snooping about.

[/quote][/i]

Quote from: "CRW"But what if your victim can see you?  But just hasn't bothered to use the look command?

I'd rather err on the side of the victim, personally.  Which is again why [broken_record]I think that emotes made by hidden PCs should only be visible to PCs who could conceivably see them.[/broken_record]

I sneak into a noble's chamber.  The noble is able to see me but instead of doing a look, decides he'll start to emote going through a chest.  He's going through the chest to get a weapon, but I don't know that.  Meanwhile he's also using psi_contact to try and call his guards.

Now, if I emoted sneaking up from behind him he could react accordingly.  But if I don't, because I'm passing out OOC info, as you say, and just type `backstab noble` I've inadvertantly bypassed the fact that he was well aware that I was there and was planning to mount a defense.

And in dealing with a situation where I'm about to kill another PC through those means, I would like to do everything in my power to make sure the scene is handled properly.

The instances where you shouldn't know the information far out way the instances where you should.  I would rather error on the side of knowing less because the code can generally fill in a lot of clues, especially in the instances that you described.  

For instance, take the point where you sneak into a noble's bedroom.  If I were that noble, I would be really really annoyed if you emoted lining up on my back while hidden.  You might as well go 'OOC Oh yeah, I am going to kill you now, just ahh, hold still.  Only going to hurt for a few seconds.'  That isn't to say the scene has to be lifeless.  If I were said assassin, I would get an emote ready and throw it off just before the backstab lands.  True, the noble misses the line up, but he is also treated with well played surprise.  For instance, what you described would be a perfect time to "emote The floor boards behind ~noble creaks and there is a soft whoosh noise as @ brings ~dagger down towards %noble back."  The scene is certainly not dead, and as a player I would appreciate that far more then having to watch someone all but OOC to me that they are about to make an attempt on me.

Look at the options with failing a sneak attempt into a noble's chambers.  If you don't fail, then the scene plays out as it should and the noble doesn't see a thing until it is too late.  If you do fail, then the noble gets a pretty obvious message 'so and so sneaks from the west'.  While it is not as pretty as what your hand crafted emote is, it should be pretty clear to the noble that someone just tried to creep in and probably has less then honorable intentions.  Either way, the noble players knows what he needs to know and nothing else.  If you emote, then true, if you failed in your sneak the noble has better information.  However, if you didn't fail, then you now have dumped information onto someone that very well might have preferred not to of had it.

In most instances involving people being hidden, the code does more then its share to convey what is happening.  Granted, it is not as flashy as a player, but it also doesn't spew OOC information either.  Take for instance pick pocketing.  If a person fails a pick pocket, then code makes it pretty clear what happens.  If you are hidden, there is an ldesc command that can be used to make it clear what you are doing.  If someone notices 'A <sdesc> stands in the shadows with his knife out" it should be pretty clear that the person is A) hostile and B) trying to hide but failing at it.  I can't think of many instances where the code gives too little information, but I can think of thousands where emoting while hidden gives far too much.

I also agree that error should be given to the victim, but when it comes to hidden emoting, to error on the side of the victim is to refrain from indulging yourself with hidden emotes.  Hidden emoting might look cool to you, but it is a maddening spot you put your victim in.  As a victim, I would greatly prefer to know less then to OOCly know more.  Few things are more damning to role play in my opinion then being fed OOC information.  There is a reason why the sharing of IC information is banned on this board and why this MUD goes to such great lengths to control how much information is spread OOCly.  OOC information hurts role play, pure and simple.  The sharing of OOC information should be avoided, and hidden emotes are absolutely no exception in my mind.

Well apparently whoever set up the hide skill for this game disagrees with you Rindan (and whoever else thinks hidden emoting is bad).

The better you are at hiding, the higher your chance of being able to emote while hidden without knocking you out of hiding. That's not a bug, someone had to code that into the skill on purpose.

Repeating again, ad nauseum, forever and ever: It is the responsibility of the players to roleplay in as realistic manner as possible, given the limitations and functions of the code, the atmosphere in which the character is positioned, and the genre of the game.

It is not the responsibility of the staff to spend all their time worrying about the few who -might- twink, and adjusting the game to limit everyone else just because a few players would abuse the code.

Quote from: "Bestatte"Well apparently whoever set up the hide skill for this game disagrees with you Rindan (and whoever else thinks hidden emoting is bad).

Yeah?  And one the Highlords disagrees with you and thinks hidden emoting is destructive to RP.  What is your point?  Trying to steamroll an argument with 'well this is how it was built' is pointless.  The game was built with intent of having elves able to ride kanks and mantis sitting in the Gaj.  It intent later changed.

Further, the set up for the hide skill does not disagree.  It is set up so that you can do hidden emote.  That is not a bad thing.  There are perfectly good times to use hidden emotes, but those are times when you can expect people to react to them.  For instance, if a magiker decides he wants to make noise, the hidden emote code will fully support him in whatever sort of imagery he wants to display.   It will support people who want to respond to someone making foot prints in the sand, rustling bushes, or whatever you want to imagine.  If an assassin wants the floor boards to creak as he sneaks up and give someone the chance to respond, more power to him.  The issue is when people give away information they don't want people to react to.  I see nothing to suggest that the ability to hidden emote was designed specifically to pass on OOC information, and even if it was, I still wouldn't agree with it.  I don't care what the intent of the code was when it was originally put in 10 (or however many) years ago.

This is the only part of your post I'm going to quote, because in my opinion it's the only relevant part of your post:

QuoteThe issue is when people give away information they don't want people to react to.

The issue is with the players. Not with the code. There is nothing wrong with the code remaining exactly the way it is. I just haven't seen enough instances of players using the code in an inappropriate manner to warrant changing it. All the rest of your post actually supports my own opinion, in that there ARE times when hidden emoting is worthwhile for both the hider and the observer. And there are ALSO times when it is not worthwhile and detracts from the RP rather than adding to it.

For the 97th time - the responsibility to differentiate between the two and act appropriately lies with the player. Not the code or the game itself.

Quote from: "Bestatte"For the 97th time - the responsibility to differentiate between the two and act appropriately lies with the player. Not the code or the game itself.

I completely agree.  When did I say otherwise?  I have not been arguing for a code change and have not even suggested a need for a coded change on this entire thread.  I have been arguing for behavior (player) change.  I completely agree that there is a time and place for hidden emoting.  What that time and place is is what is being discussed.  The responsibility does lie with the players, and I have been arguing that people use it more responsibly with consideration given to the victim.

Quote from: "Rindan"Yeah? And one the Highlords disagrees with you and thinks hidden emoting is destructive to RP.

Actually Rindan, Xygax went out of his way to state that these were his views as a player, not as staff. Check out the "p.s." at the end of one of his posts back there.

Quote from: "CindyLouWho"It is the responsibility of the players to roleplay in as realistic manner as possible, given the limitations and functions of the code, the atmosphere in which the character is positioned, and the genre of the game.

Bestatte is dead-on here, by the way. But, moving on and trying to be somewhat brief, but failing...

Quote from: "Rindan"Hidden emoting when you don't want people to respond is like OOCly telling them your plans in my opinion.

"Someone brushes past your cloak."

Hey, because this guy emoted brushing past a cloak, touching a shoulder, or simply moving past, they're broadcasting to the whole room that they've just picked your pocket, right? Wrong. You as a player can be as presumptuous as you want when you see a someone emote, but don't think the rest of the playerbase is doing the same, Rindan.

Being a big fan of the 'rinth as I am, I've done emotes similar to this dozens of times over, Rindan. Just little touches or skirts past one might feel in a crowd. It's nothing I haven't done while not hidden, either.

Know how many pockets my characters have picked, grand total? I bet you can guess at this point, but I'll tell you anyway - dead zero. Know how many times I've even tried? The same. I'm not OOCing you anything at all, Rindan. Stop jumping to conclusions.

No one's said here that you should not at all react to hidden emotes - or, if they have and I missed it, I disagree.

What I am saying: react to what the code gives you and nothing more. That is all that is being asked of the player, and again it isn't that demanding. It isn't anything more than every player faces day to day on Armageddon, and certainly isn't the travesty you make it out to be. Plain and simple, I think your issue here is just in that your mind is wandering.

Alright.  Following this discussion has pretty much caused me to arrive at the following conclusions (and this is the last I'll post on the subject, as some of the debate I'm starting to see is, unfortunately, decaying into frustration and ad hominem attacks):

1) Hidden emoting is occasionally (though I still argue, rarely) appropriate.  I was gently reminded of a time where -I- used a "hidden emote" to sneak up on someone and give them a surprise hug before they'd seen me.  My intent then had been to have them see "someone slips their arms around you", and then be revealed, and so they were then given the opportunity to appropriately react to my presence.  I'm satisfied that this is an appropriate usage (if I didn't think it were, I suppose I wouldn't have done it), and that there are other situations that might also be appropriate usages.

2) Hidden emoting before/after a coded interaction with a player is almost never appropriate.  As Rindan suggests, it inevitably forces OOC knowledge on your target.

Supreme Allah has made the following interesting statements:

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"I'm not trying to come off as "holier than thou", but for an immortal to advocate the blatant abuse of OOC knowledge really offends me.

I interpret this as a concession that offering a hidden emote in stealing/backstabbing situation IS, in fact, forcing OOC knowledge on your victim, but you then accuse Rindan of jumping to conclusions thusly:

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"I'm not OOCing you anything at all, Rindan. Stop jumping to conclusions.

I'm inclined to agree more with your first statement, which is that in reacting to a hidden emote, we are reacting to OOC knowledge.  Because I agree with that statement, I'll beg you to stop sharing OOC knowledge with me during the course of your play.  If you do, I will get up and leave the room.

Supreme Allah continues to contradict himself with the following pair of statements:

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"If we let solely the code express everything we do, then why do people emote while sparring, or crafting, or anything else? Why should theft have to be any different?

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"What I am saying: react to what the code gives you and nothing more.

So, which is it, Allah?  Rely on the code, or react to the emote?  Here's a statement you made that I think answers the question:

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"As it stands, Xygax, "someone" emotes are directly supported by the code.

Oh, excellent.  So what you're saying is, because the CODE actually allows me to see your "someone brushes your cloak" emote, I should react to what the code gives me (even if the code is giving me OOC knowledge??).  Thus, anytime someone "hidden-emotes" around me, I should assume that the code intends for me to see their activity, and assume that it is significant enough for me to react to (the code doesn't show me insignificant things, usually...  and in places where it DOES -- say I see a VNPC brush past me in the Bazaar thanks to some neat "atmosphere" work someone (I think, Dyrinis?) did there, to cause that -- I should react then, as well).

Moving on:

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"You were meant to see and react to it, but you were meant to do so in-character, not as a player in defiance of the code.

I was meant to react in-character to OOC knowledge?  You conceed above that a "hidden emote" in these situations (stealing and backstab, since those are the ones for which coded results are offered, they're the ones I'm most interested in -- I'll get to spying -- which is just as bad or worse -- shortly), is equivalent to saying "ooc I'm hidden, and I might be about to rob you or plant a knife in your back, or you might ALREADY be missing an item!!", and yet you suggest that I should respond ICly?

Interestingly (though this is somewhat of a side-issue), the example others seem to be citing so often as another appropriate use of hidden-emoting ALSO bothers me:

QuoteSomeone throws a rotten petoch fruit from the back of the room, striking soandso in the face.

Mainly this bothers me because you've assumed you're that good a throw, and that soandso is that poor at dodging fruit, but it also seems a little broken since surely -someone- would notice you in the act of hurling a fruit.  This is why engaging in combat breaks "hide." (and yes, hurling fruit at someone is a form of assault).


To summarize, Armageddon is a DIKU MUD, with coded results for actions that harm/benefit the players around you.  Remaining in a room hidden, is likely a harmful action, since the ability to spy on a target can equate to an enormous amount of power over that target.  By engaging in an emote while hidden, you are forcing what you, yourself, admit is OOC information upon your target, and then expecting them to react as though they DON'T have that information.  You're giving a player information that they ARE potentially BEING HARMED CURRENTLY, and expecting them to sit there and endure it.  You aren't, in fact, adding atmosphere; by your own admission, you are injecting OOC knowledge into what should be an IC situation handled entirely by the code (again, to use your own words).  It's only mildly interesting to this debate that you have never engaged in picking a pocket, since there are many ways to harm an individual on Zalanthas, without ever raising a blade or slitting a purse, and spying on them is most definitely one of them.  Offering your viewer the OOC knowledge that they are being spied upon can ONLY cloud the RP you claim you desire.

-- X

ps- Again, let me assure you that I am posting on this thread as a player, not as staff.

First off, this'll be my last post regarding this topic anywhere. I'm genuinely bored of it, and I can only see it continuing to go in circles.

QuoteI interpret this as a concession that offering a hidden emote in stealing/backstabbing situation IS, in fact, forcing OOC knowledge on your victim, but you then accuse Rindan of jumping to conclusions...

QuoteI'm inclined to agree more with your first statement, which is that in reacting to a hidden emote, we are reacting to OOC knowledge. Because I agree with that statement, I'll beg you to stop sharing OOC knowledge with me during the course of your play. If you do, I will get up and leave the room.

Xygax, I'm not entirely sure whether or not you're feigning ignorance here, but I'll clarify myself, regardless.

As a player, it is your responsibility to react in-character only to what the code gives you - not, in fact, to what you may know or suspect out-of-character. When I said "OOC knowledge" in the first quote you gave, I perhaps misspoke or was not clear enough - that someone has brushed past your cloak, both ICly and OOCly, is only knowledge of precisely what the coded emote in question read. Everything else is suspicion. Another character's actions may, yes, cause your character suspicion. But this, quite simply, is entirely appropriate.

I apologize for this single-word misinterpretation - especially because that single word (fragile a tactic as it may be) appears to be the entire basis of your attempts to refute my arguments in this last post. But I digress...

If "someone brushes past your cloak", interpret that and only that as what has happened. Does that mean you must ignore a presence you may very well have felt? No, by all means (and as I have suggested several times, though apparently it has gone ignored), GO AHEAD AND REACT. But react based on the code - again I say, not what you may suspect OOCly. My coded emote has informed you that someone your character could not identify has brushed past their cloak. That's it. No more, no less. It's really quite simple.

If the situation were different and "someone" brushed past another character's cloak, may indeed give you cause to react - if you feel it does, then by all means, do so. But remember what precisely you're reacting to. Your character, should he have noticed - which is reasonable, but remember that no character is omniscient of everything happening around him - is reacting to someone or something they could not identify touching or otherwise moving past someone else (something quite common I might add), NOT to the fact that YOU think that there is a pickpocket in the room.

Yes, it may come to mind that the aforementioned someone may have stolen from you, but that conclusion you have justly or unjustly drawn is an OUT OF CHARACTER one, and it should not have any effect on your IN-CHARACTER actions. Does your character leap to his feet and scramble out of the room, checking for all of his possessions at every touch he receives? Is he paranoid, as another player describes, and thinks every graze of his clothing is highly, highly suspect? Then by all means, do this. But if not I believe it is completely irresponsible to make an exception and break character (regardless of whether or not you choose to make IC excuses to do so) because of your own OOC suspicions or discomfort with perfectly IC actions.

I hope that is clear enough, because I am done repeating myself in this thread.

QuoteThe fruit thing

In general, when such things are so harmless as a fruit grazing my character in the jaw, I will not object, but at the same time, yes, power-emoting is bad, and I certainly avoid it in my own actions. To some degree I agree with you in this point, but at the same time, roleplay is not the black-and-white medium you make it out to be. Not every poor, fruit-lobbing soul that throws a fruit should have to watch their character carved up by insta-kill soldiers a split-second after.

(Edited because I suck at forum code, and some unclear wording on my part)

If my natural, out-of-character suspicion is that you're robbing me, why should my in-character suspicion be any different?

-X

I'm backtracking several pages. If I were hidden in a private room, where my aim was to jump out and kill, or to spy, I assume I picked my hiding place very carefully. I would stay still, and try not to cough or breathe too much. In other words I would not emote.

If I were an thiefy type in a crowded bar, I would not crouch under a table. I would hang out in the shadowy corners of the bar and try to be unobtrusive. In this case I might emote.

Perhaps this is not "right." Still, I feel that various situations require a varied number of responses.

Quote from: "Xygax"If my natural, out-of-character suspicion is that you're robbing me, why should my in-character suspicion be any different?

-X

Eh...I may be wrong, but are we not supposed to keep the OOC knowledge seperate from IC knowledge? By saying this, I mean, just because -you- know OOC I'm going to jack your shit, doesn't mean IC you know a damned thing, unless you play every single one of your pc's as smart as you the player are. Does that make sense?

I don't think that's what Xygax meant.

If it's blatantly obvious ICly that "someone" is going to steal from you thanks to an emote, are you supposed to not react to it because they're "hidden"? If someone's hand brushes along your belt, are you supposed to say "oh, well, they were hidden, I better not react to that"?

Anyway, this whole argument is beyond a dead horse, it's a mutilated, rotted horse.

I didn't bother to read this whole thread, but EvilRoeSlade's posts jumped out at me as the ones I agreed with.

Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Eh...I may be wrong, but are we not supposed to keep the OOC knowledge seperate from IC knowledge? By saying this, I mean, just because -you- know OOC I'm going to jack your shit, doesn't mean IC you know a damned thing, unless you play every single one of your pc's as smart as you the player are. Does that make sense?

And now we're back to my original point, which was that by "hidden emoting" you are -intentionally- providing me with OOC info.  Worse still, you're -expecting- me to act on it ICly.

Supreme Allah, you make a big deal about how people should ignore emotes like someone brushing up against them.  Why bother emoting that in the first place?  It is a trivial piece of information ICly, but a big piece of information OOCly.  Why even put someone in the position where they need to ignore OOC knowledge?

If you are hidden emoting things that people should be ignoring, you are passing on OOC information, pure and simple.  I can't possibly see how anyone could argue otherwise.  It doesn't matter if people should or should not react to it.  Forget how the victim reacts for a second and just consider what you are doing.  Regardless if the victim ignores it or responds, you are giving them OOC information.  This MUD is built around the concept that extra OOC information should always be kept at a minimum.

Whatever is added atmospherically from said OOC information is lost many times over in disconnecting the player from their character.  I like being where my character is and I don't want extra OOC information thrown at him.  Yeah, I can ignore it, but I will be annoyed the entire time I am ignoring it that someone is forcing OOC information onto my screen.

Before hidden emoting, I would ask yourself one thing.  Is whatever atmospheric information you are about to give to everyone in the room worth also passing along all the other OOC information you are going to also be passing along?  Realize that everyone in the room might have been happily RPing along like no one hidden was there in complete sync with their character, and now suddenly they have this OOC information that tells them someone hidden is around.

Honestly, I think that if you believe no one should react to your emote unless they are ultra-paranoid, that is a pretty blazingly clear indication that you are spilling more OOC information then whatever that emote is worth and should reconsider.

And, not to really attempt to lengthen this thread, but, for the sake of argument, don't you think your PC might be more paranoid than you the player? After all, you, the player, are just visiting this world, while your PC has lived in this cold world for every day of his life.

The problem is... In emotes like brushing past someone, or any sort of touch, hearing or smell.

They aren't giving you information ICly or OOCily. HEY I'm stealing from you, or hey I'm a thief. Or hey I'm an evil magicker!!! They are conveying the simple action of what they are conveying. You OOCily assume that it's a thief or magicker because codewise noone else is invisible and then react ICly on it.

Yes, emotes like 'Someone crosses their arms over their chest.' Could very well not be needed, but if you see, "Someone bumps into you." You shouldn't ICly act like you just got ran into by a thief. You should react ICly like someone bumped into you. Even though you know most likely you OOCly you just got robbed. Just because something is BLATANTLY obvious OOCly doesn't mean your going to see the same thing ICly.

Any place where people are congregating in large numbers and drinking it would probably be common to be bumped into. Now you say, well then if it's common you shouldn't emote it. Well if it's not emoted it probably doesn't be seen, or payed attention to. It's one of the reasons small minorities in Zalanthas become seemingly the norm, as they aren't seen.

Wow... I wasn't expecting to write even close to this much and it's probably repeating the same thing over and over that was said many times in other posts... But anyways... You got to look at things through your characters eyes. Not through the screen.

Thank you Creeper. Basically sums up my entire opinion on the matter.

Creeper,  you are missing my question.  I understand how people should react.  The issue is WHY bother giving that information in the first place.  What purpose does it serve?  Why is 'emote bumps into ~person' worth the OOC information it also gives?  Do you really think that sort of atmospheric emote that people are expected to not respond to is worth all the of OOC information that can't help but also be implied?

To sum it up real simply because no one is answering the question:  I understand how peopel should react.  The question is why bother giving that informatin in the first place?  Is that mundan piece of IC information that the victim (not to mention everyone else in the room) is unlikely to react to ICly worth all of the OOC information that is also passed along?

Quote from: "Rindan"Creeper,  you are missing my question.  I understand how people should react.  The issue is WHY bother giving that information in the first place.  What purpose does it serve?  Why is 'emote bumps into ~person' worth the OOC information it also gives?  Do you really think that sort of atmospheric emote that people are expected to not respond to is worth all the of OOC information that can't help but also be implied?

Yes damnit. Yes yes YES! It's fucking worth it!

Well.. in the bazaar you have Vnpc that nail you in the ribs or 'bump' into your back.. So why can't a PC do that while in a crowded room where it is filled with VnPC and Pcs.. I say it is ok.. but if your pc has no IC way of seeing or feeling it, then you as a PLAYER shouldn't make them.

Quote from: "sacac"Well.. in the bazaar you have Vnpc that nail you in the ribs or 'bump' into your back.. So why can't a PC do that while in a crowded room where it is filled with VnPC and Pcs.. I say it is ok.. but if your pc has no IC way of seeing or feeling it, then you as a PLAYER shouldn't make them.

When in an NPC does it, it is atmosphere without the OOC information.  When a player does it, there is an additional heap of OOC information.  So again, no one has answered the question.  Why is it worth it?  Why is all that OOC information you inevitably spill to the victim and everyone else in the room worth that small atmospheric emote which no one who is not ultra paranoid is supposed to respond to?  Why bother dumping all of that OOC information onto someone's lap for what seems to be absolutely no purpose?

QuoteCreeper, you are missing my question. I understand how people should react. The issue is WHY bother giving that information in the first place. What purpose does it serve? Why is 'emote bumps into ~person' worth the OOC information it also gives? Do you really think that sort of atmospheric emote that people are expected to not respond to is worth all the of OOC information that can't help but also be implied?

Why emote anything then? Why even emote that you're about to attack someone? All it does is give OOC information after all.

Quote from: "Carnage"Why emote anything then? Why even emote that you're about to attack someone? All it does is give OOC information after all.

Why emote when you are about to attack?  Because if someone emotes lunging for you, you can respond and draw a weapon, emote dodging out of the way, or do whatever tickles your fancy.  It also tells everyone else in the room that someone is about to attack and everyone can do whatever it is they are going to do.  In this case, the emote is very much worth while as there is no information given to you the player that the character wouldn't also know.  If somoene is about to attack, it should be pretty clear and people should respond accordingly.  You and your character will arrive at the same conclusion, "Shit, someone is going to attack, I better get ready."

There are plenty of worthwhile things to emote in the world.  There are things that give IC information that your character would know, like someone is going to attack.  There are things that give no real IC information, but not real OOC information, like scratching your ass at the bar.  Most characters might not notice ICly, but who cares?  There is no harm in it and your character might potentially notice.  At worst you gain nothing and loose nothing.  Finally, there are things that give OOC information, but no IC information.  These are the things that in my opinion are just disruptive to the game.  Brushing into someone gives the OOC information that there is a hidden person in the room, and if you were the target of said brushing, you might have just been pick pocketed.  What IC information does it give?  Nothing you are supposed to respond to.  In other words, you were given just a heap of OOC information and nothing else.

Wow, this topic is vicious...and you guys are just playing.   :wink:

Now, I do not go to the kind of bar that is so packed I cannot breathe, but I do go to some pretty busy bars.  And after every time I am jostled, I quickly check my valuables--unless I am so wasted that I cannot tell, which is fairly rare, I must say.  Yes, every time.  Wallet, keys, cell phone, knife.  Hell, it is a habit I have when I see someone suspicious, enter a new room, or leave a building.

Plus, when people bump into each other in bars, fights break out.  I do not know what kinds of bars my fellow armers go to [IRL], but if someone bumps into me, I look at them, and perhaps nod and smile.

My characters, on the other hand, are much less concerned.  I had someone tuck a knife much like my character's favorite into their belt as they headed for the door of a tavern.  My character, who might or might not have seen it, ignored it completely.  I would almost certainly have noticed, IRL.  I have noticed, IRL, in the past.  When someone brushes me IRL, I damn well know who they are.  Now why is that?

Morrolan

No. I absolutely don't agree with that Rindan. Let's deal with this *hardly ever happens anyway so who really gives a shit* example, k?

THE BRUSH:

Room description implies it's a crowded bar. There's only 3 visible PCs there, so as a player I'm feeling like - it just isn't really that crowded, but I RP as if it was anyway because that's the point of the game.

Suddenly I feel a brush of cloth against my arm as someone walks through the room.

As a player, I know someone is hidden. As a character, I know that in the midst of the crowd, someone passed by closer than the majority of the other people. My character knows nothing else. HOWEVER

My character will likely touch her sleeve, or look down at her arm, or otherwise emote to acknowledge that yes, someone did in fact brush her on the way through.

Or maybe she might even look up at a few faces, studying the crowd with mild interest.

Or maybe she'll be paranoid and make sure no one's slipped some poison into her drink.

The opportunity for RPing this situation is endless. She could do nothing at all and not even feel the brush or notice it. Chances are though, she'll feel it, and make some gesture to acknowledge it. For me, that's adding to the atmosphere. For me, it's part of the fun of the game. For me, I appreciate the hell out of people who do that kind of thing and any of you who know who my character is, GO FOR IT. You'll find one person among the crowd who will applaud your efforts behind the monitor.

I know I said I wouldn't post to repeat myself yet again, but Rindan, you appear to have missed when I stated this, yet again.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"...by all means (and as I have suggested several times, though apparently it has gone ignored), GO AHEAD AND REACT.

The 'paranoia' examples that you're really overusing were in response to specific reactions players had given in this thread - I approved of both, given they were in-character actions and not those spurred by OOC assumption. Bestatte's (and Morrolan's, though they were more subtly stated) examples would all be great, as well.

If someone's close enough to slip a hand in your cloak (or by your belt) and snatch something, it should be fairly obvious, and it certainly does take something from the game as well as from both thiefer and thiefee if such actions go completely unacknowledged, regardless of whether they were fully noticed or not.

If you really believe that the 'emote glances over his shoulder' that the average person will do in response to someone announcing OOCly that they are hidden and stealing from people to the entire room, then I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.  I am all for mundane interaction, but not if it comes with such a high price in terms of added OOC knowledge, not just for the victim, but everyone else who has to witness it.  I personally find such hidden emotes extremely self indulgent and inconsiderate to the suspension of disbelief of those around that person.  I can't force anyone to stop, but I would hope that you at least consider how much OOC information you are spreading to the entire room and what is gained in that spreading before hidden emoting to a room full of people.

Quote from: "Rindan"If you really believe that the 'emote glances over his shoulder' that the average person will do in response to someone announcing OOCly that they are hidden and stealing from people to the entire room... (rest of redundant post drawn from this)

From here on out, Rindan, I'm just going to patiently quote things I've already stated, because everything you're bringing up was already acknowledged (and torn to pieces in my opinion) two pages ago.

Please reread this:

Quote from: "Supreme Allah""Someone brushes past your cloak."

Hey, because this guy emoted brushing past a cloak, touching a shoulder, or simply moving past, they're broadcasting to the whole room that they've just picked your pocket, right? Wrong. You as a player can be as presumptuous as you want when you see a someone emote, but don't think the rest of the playerbase is doing the same, Rindan.

Being a big fan of the 'rinth as I am, I've done emotes similar to this dozens of times over, Rindan. Just little touches or skirts past one might feel in a crowd. It's nothing I haven't done while not hidden, either.

Know how many pockets my characters have picked, grand total? I bet you can guess at this point, but I'll tell you anyway - dead zero. Know how many times I've even tried? The same. I'm not OOCing you anything at all, Rindan. Stop jumping to conclusions.

No one's said here that you should not at all react to hidden emotes - or, if they have and I missed it, I disagree.

What I am saying: react to what the code gives you and nothing more. That is all that is being asked of the player, and again it isn't that demanding. It isn't anything more than every player faces day to day on Armageddon, and certainly isn't the travesty you make it out to be. Plain and simple, I think your issue here is just in that your mind is wandering.

Nothing personal of course - I'm just sick of repeating myself.

When I use 'you', it is the all inclusive you, not you Supreme Allah specifically.  

Yes OOC information is passed when someone hidden emotes in the ways that have been described, even if the OOC information simply is that someone is hidden in the room.  If it is also indicates that someone is running around pick pocketing, then that is just another piece of information that is also included.  True, it would presumptuous to know 100% that a pick pocket just occurred, but suspecting one just occurred would not be presumptuous.

The point is that whatever little is gained in RP value is lost in the quantities of OOC information that is also passed along.  You are certainly free to disagree that 'emote glances over his shoulder' is not worth it, but you can't deny the fact that it gives the OOC information that, if nothing else, someone is hidden in the room.  Simply consider the fact that you (all inclusive you) WILL give OOC information if you hidden emote.  Just consider if the disruption in suspension of disbelief is worth self indulgent declarations that someone is hidden.

Quote from: "Rindan"If it is also indicates that someone is running around pick pocketing, then that is just another piece of information that is also included.

QuoteI've played rinthers for several months of my Arm career, Rindan, and I for one have never had a character of mine pick a single pocket. Your assumptions are utterly baseless aside from common knowledge of what a very solid percentage of starting guild options have available to them, and are hardly even worth acknowledging.

Quote from: "Rindan"The point is that whatever little is gained in RP value is lost in the quantities of OOC information that is also passed along.

The "quantities of OOC information" is simply that there is (or was at the time of emoting) someone you cannot identify in the room. That is it. At any given point ICly - particularly in the crowded tavern environment we are describing - this is likely true. Unless you are completely unable to seperate IC from OOC, I don't understand how this alone should affect your roleplay.

Quote from: "Bestatte"Room description implies it's a crowded bar. There's only 3 visible PCs there, so as a player I'm feeling like - it just isn't really that crowded, but I RP as if it was anyway because that's the point of the game.

The player should understand that ICly, PCs or not, there are a lot of people in this room that we are not going to completely notice or acknowledge, HOWEVER...

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"If someone's close enough to slip a hand in your cloak (or by your belt) and snatch something, it should be fairly obvious, and it certainly does take something from the game as well as from both thiefer and thiefee if such actions go completely unacknowledged, regardless of whether they were fully noticed or not.

The fact that a PC is hidden or successful in the steal command should not imply that they have somehow become incorporeal or completely beyond notice, and aside from the fact that it can heavily detract from the environment, as Bestatte describes above, a PC failing to emote actions another PC could very well notice is exactly what this does.

Quote from: "Rindan"

Quote from: "sacac"Well.. in the bazaar you have Vnpc that nail you in the ribs or 'bump' into your back.. So why can't a PC do that while in a crowded room where it is filled with VnPC and Pcs.. I say it is ok.. but if your pc has no IC way of seeing or feeling it, then you as a PLAYER shouldn't make them.

When in an NPC does it, it is atmosphere without the OOC information.  When a player does it, there is an additional heap of OOC information.  So again, no one has answered the question.  Why is it worth it?  Why is all that OOC information you inevitably spill to the victim and everyone else in the room worth that small atmospheric emote which no one who is not ultra paranoid is supposed to respond to?  Why bother dumping all of that OOC information onto someone's lap for what seems to be absolutely no purpose?

Npc and PC is an OOC concept.. yes it gives you some info about what is going on.. yes. it does, But why even sit alone at a table in a crowded bar? That right there hints at people listening.. but noone cares about that.. why? Because it is a crowded bar and your pc probably can't see them anyway.. So why emote while hidden? Because there is probably a PC/NPC in the room that can see that hidden person. And they want to know what it is doing. So the hidden person tells the people watching what he is doing.. So yes.. if your PC happened to be looking over your shoulder at the time then yes, you would probably jump up and accuse the closest elf.. or another PC.. It has happened to me.. in a crowded bar.. when you Emote while you are hidden, you are giving the of characters in the room a chance to RP off of what you are doing..

I think a lot of the hidden emotes are pretty stupid. If people are walking around, then they shouldn't be hidden in the first place. If they fart, that breaks their hide and the player has an obligation to type 'eq'. If they brush up against them, same thing. People seem to think that being successfully hidden makes them somehow invisible, but I don't see it that way. If they're not actively hiding in a hiding -spot-, just slouching in shadow, then they shouldn't be hidden.

In fact, I don't think hiding in a tavern should be possible. It's simply too crowded and too impossible to not be noticed by -someone-, unless you're coming in from some secret entrance.

If simply typing 'eq' and 'patting yourself down', basically moving in the slightest action, then the majority of emotes would break your hide.

Quote from: "Kalden"In fact, I don't think hiding in a tavern should be possible. It's simply too crowded and too impossible to not be noticed by -someone-, unless you're coming in from some secret entrance.

You are wrong.  Hiding in the city doesn't mean ducking under a table or hiding under the bar so that nobody sees you.  It means that everybody sees you, and at the same time, nobody notices you.  You are in effect, ceasing to be a PC and instead becoming a VNPC.  A crowded tavern is the perfect place to hide, because all you have to do is fail to stand out and allow yourself to be lost in the crowds.  People can see you, but if somebody later came along and asked if you were there, they would be utterly incapable of remembering and describing you.

Quote from: "Kalden"In fact, I don't think hiding in a tavern should be possible. It's simply too crowded and too impossible to not be noticed by -someone-, unless you're coming in from some secret entrance.

umm...bullshit? Yeah, sorry man, but I totally disagree. How is it -NOT-possible to blend into a crowd of perhaps -two hundred- fucking cloaked people!?!? IMHO, it wouldn't be that damn hard. In fact, the best place IMO to hide -would- be in an actual crowd. It's a -lot- harder to spot Waldo when he looks like every other schmoe.

Just my piece of shit, shrug.

::EDIT:: Sigh, E. R. Slade beat me to it!

QuoteIt means that everybody sees you, and at the same time, nobody notices you. You are in effect, ceasing to be a PC and instead becoming a VNPC. A crowded tavern is the perfect place to hide, because all you have to do is fail to stand out and allow yourself to be lost in the crowds. People can see you, but if somebody later came along and asked if you were there, they would be utterly incapable of remembering and describing you.

That's the popular definition, but it doesn't make much sense, IMO. The helpfile does back it up, but I think that magical effect is impossible. People can't see you or hear you - you become a VNPC, but even to those people who know you, your cloak, and all of your mannerisms? I don't think so. Makes no sense.

I prefer to think of city hide as being able to find the shadowy nooks and cranneys in a city, where you can actually hide. But if hide is as you say, then why shouldn't I be able to do plenty of actions? Where is your refutation to that?

If hide is what you define it as, then you should be able to drink, smoke, eat, and whatever else you feel like doing.

Edit: Maybe your 'disguise' definition would make sense if the person were actually changing their physical appearance. As it is, they are someone becoming invisible even if they look like Death himself, or are an ugly freak. Again, I don't think so.

Quote from: "Kalden"If hide is what you define it as, then you should be able to drink, smoke, eat, and whatever else you feel like doing.

Well Kalden, you see, it goes like this: The game is not perfect...yet =P
I seriously think you -should- be able to scratch your nuts though, and not get your hide status booted. Damn, Kalden, I think you are on to something big here!

Quote from: "Kalden"That's the popular definition, but it doesn't make much sense, IMO. The helpfile does back it up, but I think....

........

I can see 'mingling into the crowd' in a large, busy Bazaar, with tons of people, but in a tavern, you have people sitting at the bar or tables. You have servers walking about, but I don't see 'hundreds' of people walking around the tavern floor, just standing. People like to say 'hundreds' of people are everywhere, but they simply aren't. My vision isn't usually obscured by hordes of people in the taverns I'm sitting at, and I don't like people to take their own envisionment of a room and force it on me.

Quote from: "Kalden"The helpfile does back it up, but I think that magical effect is impossible. People can't see you or hear you - you become a VNPC, but even to those people who know you, your cloak, and all of your mannerisms? I don't think so. Makes no sense.

It is not a magickal ability, it is what detectives and police investigators do in real life to tail their suspects.  Mannerisms can be altered, in Zalanthas, all cloaks more or less the same (drab and dusty), and you can conceal yourself from people who know you by placing yourself behind them and people who do not know you.  In fact, if you're only trying to hide from people who know you, there is no better place to be than in a crowd.

Quote from: "Kalden"I prefer to think of city hide as being able to find the shadowy nooks and cranneys in a city, where you can actually hide. But if hide is as you say, then why shouldn't I be able to do plenty of actions? Where is your refutation to that?

There are some cases in which using the hide skill would work in such a way.  Of course, ducking behind a wagon or a pile of trash doesn't actually require any skill.  But if nothing else is available, and its dark enough to give you the advantage, hey?  Why not?  If you are inside a dark alley that lacks bystanders and you want to crawl inside of a window or duck behind a heap of rubbish to hide, then it would indeed be as you describe it.

Quote from: "Kalden"If hide is what you define it as, then you should be able to drink, smoke, eat, and whatever else you feel like doing.

Edit: Maybe your 'disguise' definition would make sense if the person were actually changing their physical appearance. As it is, they are someone becoming invisible even if they look like Death himself, or are an ugly freak. Again, I don't think so.

It isn't so much a disguise as it is the art of looking or acting like somebody might expect.  If people look at you and see a rich fop, a beggar, a street thug, or an off-duty mercenary then chances are they won't bother with a second look.

And yes, you should be able to eat, drink, and smoke while hidden.  But just because you can't do something doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to.

Quote from: "Kalden"I can see 'mingling into the crowd' in a large, busy Bazaar, with tons of people, but in a tavern, you have people sitting at the bar or tables. You have servers walking about, but I don't see 'hundreds' of people walking around the tavern floor, just standing. People like to say 'hundreds' of people are everywhere, but they simply aren't. My vision isn't usually obscured by hordes of people in the taverns I'm sitting at, and I don't like people to take their own envisionment of a room and force it on me.

Zalanthas is a low tech society, and furthermore, it is a society in which a tavern isn't so much as a bar as it is the village square, a place where just everybody gathers for social interaction.  Therefore, your real life analogy is worthless.  In fact, I believe the main description of the Gladiator and Gaj does indeed mention there being hundereds of commoners.

A second point I would like to bring up.  Even if the tavern wasn't crowded, you could most likely still remain hidden.  Remember you're in a dimly lit place where by raising your hood, you could conceal your features at a long distance.  This is a steriotypical example yes, but by sitting in a table in a poorly lit corner, you could indeed make it so that people would have to cross the room and stare you in the face to be able to remember your features.  Needless to say, nobody will do this.

Quote from: "Kalden"My vision isn't usually obscured by hordes of people in the taverns I'm sitting at, and I don't like people to take their own envisionment of a room and force it on me.

Oh, sorry man. Didn't mean to make you eat that "envisionment of a room" stuff. I know it's really nasty. (I apologize for being a jackass, I'll be polite now...just didn't think I was force feeding you Armageddon Ideology)

Ok, now, for the serious stuff: Go visit the normal taverns in the various city-states like Tuluk for instance, read their room descriptions, and tell me what you see. If you can find -anywhere- where it says there are "not that many patrons milling about the room" or some shit like that, then you have to -kinda, sorta think- that in a city of over 100k people at -least-, there's going to be more than twenty people in a tavern at any given time. That's a fair, FAIR estimate.

P.S. Sorry for that forcing upon you thing, Kalden. No hard feelings? A napkin, perhaps? =P

QuoteIf people look at you and see a rich fop, a beggar, a street thug, or an off-duty mercenary then chances are they won't bother with a second look.

Oh so true.  :roll:

I am sure someone posted this already in the thread but I am NOT going to go back and read that mess.

Well I have a solution to the bumping into ppl thing. Why doesn't everone who enters a tavern, bump into someone else, at least once person per tavern visit. So pretty soon, maybe people won't react so crazily.

As for hidden ppl,  the code tells you the player that 'someone' is doing something.  Its the player's burden to decide whether the pc can see them or not.  Never really cared for the someone messages myself, just let me not see it for all I care. OR only let me see their hidden emote if it references me. Example. Somone picks their nose. I don't see anything. Someone pick their nose and flicks something at you. Since its involving me in their filthy emote, I see it. But joe shmoe next to me might not notice.

I wish this thread would die die die!!!  Please, oh please, would someone burn this dead horse and bury the ashes before it can get flogged any more?

Wisemerci wrote:

QuoteI wish this thread would die die die!!! Please, oh please, would someone burn this dead horse and bury the ashes before it can get flogged any more?

I second the motion.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"The "quantities of OOC information" is simply that there is (or was at the time of emoting) someone you cannot identify in the room. That is it. At any given point ICly - particularly in the crowded tavern environment we are describing - this is likely true. Unless you are completely unable to seperate IC from OOC, I don't understand how this alone should affect your roleplay.

It doesn't affect ones role playing.  In the most extreme example, the imms could drop me an e-mail detailing the entire plot of the MUD and what they have planned for the next six months and ideally it wouldn't affect my role playing.  I could very well separate out that OOC knowledge from the IC knowledge of my character.  The point is that I don't want to, or, in the very least, would like to minimize how often I have to do it.  When there is a way to clearly avoid getting extra OOC information, I prefer to take that rout.  For the same reason why I don't want the imms to send me their plans for the plot for the next six months, I don't want someone to announce that they are hidden, stealing from me, or whatever.  Granted, the difference is a few orders of magnitude in the imms sending me the grand plot over someone announcing they are hidden, but it is the same general idea.  Yes, I could live through the OOC information, but I would rather not be forced to.

When you hidden emote, especially things that you people are not normally going to respond to in a meaningful way, then you are giving away OOC information.  Whatever IC information is passed out that people can use, an OOC price is paid.  Just consider the cost and reward for such actions.  As I said, it isn't like I can force anyone to stop broadcasting that they are hidden, they should just consider what they are doing.

I'll call this thread dead for me.  Either you feel that the OOC information you pass on and its potential to disrupt the enjoyment of everyone in the room when hidden emoting is worth it or you don't.  I doubt anything else can be said to sway anyone any further.

Wouldn't this same thing work with someone that is trying to sneak around, but they don't succeed. Cause I remember a pc who did that once, in a bar. First they were hiding and then they showed themself and then they walked out with sneak, but it didn't work.

Yes yes, the thread should burn, and I with it for having brought this shit up!

BUT! We have learned one valuable lesson from all of this madness:

Put simply, Rindan has never admitted he's wrong. Ever.  :P