I think the Brew skill should be merged with the Floristry skill, and both should be combined into one.
Classes that get Brew:
Miscreant - Advanced
Stalker - Advanced
Pilferer - Master
Adventurer - Master
Fence - Master
Dune Trader - Master
Classes that get Floristry:
Stalker - Advanced
Adventurer - Master
Dune Trader - Master
Artisan - Master
Subclasses that get Brew:
Physician
Apothecary
Touched Vivaduan
Subclasses that get Floristry:
House Servant
Physician
Apothecary
Touched Vivaduan
I think that poison/cure, alcohol brewing, perfume brewing, and drying/arranging of flowers should be all part of the same 'school of knowledge'.
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Perfume%20Making
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Floristry
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Brew
This can be "herbalism", "alchemy", or keep "Brew" as the skill name.
I think the separation of the skills isn't beneficial for the game, and causes complication and confusion for the players.
+1
I think merging them would be optimum, but I'd also settle for just making a hard line between them as opposed to the pretty wiggly line that exists now, particularly in the area of perfumes.
+1 vote to Merge. If you know how to make plants into medicine, you know how the hell to dry them, too, most assuredly.
+1
Quote from: Narf on April 05, 2022, 01:07:40 PM
I think merging them would be optimum, but I'd also settle for just making a hard line between them as opposed to the pretty wiggly line that exists now, particularly in the area of perfumes.
+1 for combining Brew and Floristry into Alchemy.
Actually agree with mansa on this one.
:)
I wish Floristry had a lot more going for it to say the least, or maybe I've just never figured out what all goes with what?.. I really don't see how combining these skills stands to improve anything though? Just seems like more work for the staff for very little change. IMO
Quote from: perfecto on April 06, 2022, 02:27:24 AM
I wish Floristry had a lot more going for it to say the least, or maybe I've just never figured out what all goes with what?.. I really don't see how combining these skills stands to improve anything though? Just seems like more work for the staff for very little change. IMO
For me, the reason to combine or change them would be because the existing craft recipes for perfume mix and match whether they use brew or floristy. That's pretty confusing, particularly for newer players. Of course you could fix that just by shunting perfumes over to one skill or the other, but floristry seems like a really niche craft right now and could get even moreso if perfumes all get moved to brew.
Quote from: perfecto on April 06, 2022, 02:27:24 AM
I wish Floristry had a lot more going for it to say the least, or maybe I've just never figured out what all goes with what?.. I really don't see how combining these skills stands to improve anything though? Just seems like more work for the staff for very little change. IMO
Agreed. We combine these 2 skills results in one skill for X amount of staff work. Once it's complete, we can still do the same amount of things we could beforehand. Minimal value. I'd much rather see X amount of staff work go into something novel such as a new poison.
Quote from: williamson on April 06, 2022, 09:34:52 AM
Quote from: perfecto on April 06, 2022, 02:27:24 AM
I wish Floristry had a lot more going for it to say the least, or maybe I've just never figured out what all goes with what?.. I really don't see how combining these skills stands to improve anything though? Just seems like more work for the staff for very little change. IMO
Agreed. We combine these 2 skills results in one skill for X amount of staff work. Once it's complete, we can still do the same amount of things we could beforehand. Minimal value. I'd much rather see X amount of staff work go into something novel such as a new poison.
I don't think we have any allotment of hours for staff work that we can assign to. Its definitely in the realms of
"There's an idea by the players, is it something I like and agree with, and I have the time to tinker with to make this change."The problem right now is that "perfume making" was originally designed to be a stand-alone skill, (similar to rope-making), and a decision was made to merge that with floristry in order to boost the number of crafts available to floristry, of which itself has very few recipes and outcomes.
However, as time has gone on, the Brew skill has been used to create 'alcohol' mashes, and mashes for poisons/cures, and some perfumes have been added to the brew recipe list.
So - it appears that some perfumes are brew and some perfumes are floristry.
Do we remove the perfumes from brew and put them into floristry, and maintain the separation of outcomes?
Do we just combine brew and floristry and make /that skill/ be able to do both?
Is there a justification for keeping them separate?
Do the classes that get brew and floristry overlap?
on one hand it makes sense, on the other... That means brewing would be the skill for making flower arrangements. Not that such really needs it's own skill.
Quote from: Fredd on April 06, 2022, 12:22:16 PM
on one hand it makes sense, on the other... That means brewing would be the skill for making flower arrangements. Not that such really needs it's own skill.
You could just rename it "herbalism". It's not a perfect fit, but probably better than brew.
Floristry has 112 recipes, with 91 being open to anyone.
Brew has 97 "craft" recipes, with 82 being open to anyone. In also has the additional code around cure creation, above and beyond these craft recipes.
Looking over the Brew recipes, there is only one perfume recipe. There is also one recipe that is more traditional floristry i.e. drying a flower. There are recipes that incorporate scents but they are intended to be brew, that is the incense, soap and cleaning oil recipes.
Looking at Floristry recipes, there are 12 cleaning oil recipes (all clan locked) as well as 18 recipes for a generic cleaning oil item.
This would indicate the confusion is around cleaning oil recipes. The ones sold by vendors (which were created at the same time) are all in brew, while a base obj and clan locked recipes are in floristry. Additionally, since they use the same script as perfumes, may be confusion around what is a cleaning oil and what is a perfume, although cleaning oils pretty much always have "oil" in their sdesc.
I would guess that the clan locked cleaning oil recipes are all in Floristry because legacy Merchant guild did not get brew. Putting them in floristry allowed Merchants to craft them.
That's some great data, Brokkr.
Do you think the game would be in a better, less complicated place if the two skills were merged into one skill?
+1 for merge..I like the idea of calling it alchemy. Give Apothecary skinning...because anatomical knowledge comes with 'medicine' drying flowers for herbs and cutting up fat and animal bits was how people used to make medicine.
Quote from: Bast on April 19, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
+1 for merge..I like the idea of calling it alchemy. Give Apothecary skinning...because anatomical knowledge comes with 'medicine' drying flowers for herbs and cutting up fat and animal bits was how people used to make medicine.
Yes!
Quote from: sucre on April 19, 2022, 09:28:16 AM
Quote from: Bast on April 19, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
+1 for merge..I like the idea of calling it alchemy. Give Apothecary skinning...because anatomical knowledge comes with 'medicine' drying flowers for herbs and cutting up fat and animal bits was how people used to make medicine.
Yes!
Yeah, I +1 this
Personally feel like calling the skillname herbalism.
putting the city hide flag and newbrew skill along with pilot will make house servant a much stronger sublass to support the likes of raider
also, the lack of brew on artisan feels like a very intentional design choice
Floristry and brew definitely seem to go hand in hand in my mind. Name it herbalism.
Quote from: Alesan on April 19, 2022, 01:40:18 PM
Floristry and brew definitely seem to go hand in hand in my mind. Name it herbalism.
Agreed.
In my mind perfume vs cleaning oil require entirely different processes, that I don't really think need to be combined.
In Zalanthas making perfume is probably a lot like making tea, you find the flowers, boil the ingredients in water, and sift the water into a vial. There isn't a fancy process because Zalanthans lack the technology to create perfume-making equipment and high-tech distillation apparatus.
Cleaning oil is different. You have a carrier oil, then you crush flowers/herbs to get an essential oil. These two oils are then heated to high temperatures so that they bind into one another. That's a lot more fancy than boiling petals in water, hence the brew-adjacent aspect.
I like that the skills are separated because when I think of Brew I don't think of flower loa or rose circlets or vine wreaths. When I think of Brew I think of the traditional definition of herbalism, which is the use of plants in healing, and the more chemical-based processes of distillation.
In zalanthas you mix a very pungent animal musk(to carry the scent and help it linger or something) with flowers and carry the oily mixture in wax-capped vials to make perfume
Which(to me) isn't that much different from using joybane oil and letting the mixture of oil and flowers cook and mix over heat. It is pretty different to making tablet-cures tho. Could separate the poisons-cures aspect of brew, keep it as "brew", and have every actual craft in its own field of herbalism in a merge.
PLUS ONE BABY