Armageddon General Discussion Board

A friend of mine has been trying to play Arm.

Its been very frustrating for him because its been extremely hard to find PC leaders for his PC to join their Clan.

Besides the fact that he hasn't been able to join a single Clan for 6 days because of unavailable PC leaders (and yes, he is playing during peak times), its particularly hard to sustain his PC, no matter which location they are: Luir's, Allanak, etc.

Since he is my friend, I was able to direct him to go greb in places and sell things to keep himself alive, but new players who don't have the resources to find this out, will be extremely demotivated to keep on going.

And hunting with a PC fresh out of chargen with shitty skills and gear is extremely hard if not dangerous.

This is a real crisis which I have experienced for a while with my current PC as well. What can we do to keep these PC's alive, and the players interested in the game without struggling 24/7 and grebbing/selling the whole time they are on, in order to keep on going?

Its particularly tragic since the PC he was playing literally starved to death. He put a lot of effort in that PC and liked it a lot. This shouldn't have to happen with newbs.

Quote from: Iiyola on October 30, 2021, 01:41:01 PM
A friend of mine has been trying to play Arm.

Its been very frustrating for him because its been extremely hard to find PC leaders for his PC to join their Clan.

Besides the fact that he hasn't been able to join a single Clan for 6 days because of unavailable PC leaders (and yes, he is playing during peak times), its particularly hard to sustain his PC, no matter which location they are: Luir's, Allanak, etc.

Since he is my friend, I was able to direct him to go greb in places and sell things to keep himself alive, but new players who don't have the resources to find this out, will be extremely demotivated to keep on going.

And hunting with a PC fresh out of chargen with shitty skills and gear is extremely hard if not dangerous.

This is a real crisis which I have experienced for a while with my current PC as well. What can we do to keep these PC's alive, and the players interested in the game without struggling 24/7 and grebbing/selling the whole time they are on, in order to keep on going?

Its particularly tragic since the PC he was playing literally starved to death. He put a lot of effort in that PC and liked it a lot. This shouldn't have to happen with newbs.

Perfectly understandable. As it was their first PC, staff will likely let him re-app that character with some alterations, maybe this time he could start in Tuluk?

A long time ago I had a PC who wanted to join the Byn.

He got in touch with a couple runners...who gave the sarge name.

My PC would try and way the sarge while he waited outside the byn gates like every game day from early afternoon to night.

After a solid RL week of doing this and more then one wish up starting on RL day 4. (this was before request tool) A staffer finally took pity on me and animated the gate sarge and got him into the Byn.

Turned out that the player of the Byn sarge simply stopped playing without warning.

My PC later became sarge.

And like a week after my PC was promoted the sarge that went AWAL logged back in. Some kind of RL emergency had happened.

Anyway, Point being, player should get with staff...things can usually be worked out.

Hell, I had two times, once in Winrothol and once in Tor where my PC got promoted to officer by staff just because LAST MAN STANDING.

Leader turnover has been really, really high lately. I don't know why this is, but it's an issue I wouldn't even know how to solve. Could some of the people who played some of our latest leaders speak up on the issue? Some of these roles have had so many call for them that I know you're out there!

Wishing up to staff for help with joining clans seems like a good option, but is there any way a new player would know to do that? I think putting a blurb spread across a few places in the help files that wishing up to join a clan is an acceptable alternative if a player can't find  a clan leader.

Its not his first PC, some have died before but he started playing about a month ago.

Still, even after having made a variety of PC's, new players have hardly learned how to sustain themselves. Hell, even I wouldn't be able to survive if I did not join a Clan in the nick of time.

Point is: There is no PC leadership available right now. Be it Byn, Kadius, Salarr (sparsely available), Militia.

But Iiyola, why won't you friend go to Tuluk?

No, he doesn't have to be forced to go to Tuluk and needing to learn a completely new culture while he just got settled in in Southern culture. He JUST got to learn how to find his way around Allanak, Luir's. He shouldn't have to be forced to relearn the mapping of a completely new city and its do's and don'ts.

Staff needs to step up and make NPC Leaders available for PC's to join a clan.

Idea:

I've noticed a few npcs using walking scripts at times of day with longdesc changes.

Pair this with the Discuss code and we could use those codes to create a walkthrough sort of easy intro play.

This npc could be pointed at as someone to follow as they wander between a point or two in the cities. I also think the discuss code is great where it is and would love to see it fleshed out.

Quote from: Narf on October 30, 2021, 02:00:05 PM
Wishing up to staff for help with joining clans seems like a good option, but is there any way a new player would know to do that? I think putting a blurb spread across a few places in the help files that wishing up to join a clan is an acceptable alternative if a player can't find  a clan leader.

New players should be notified that this is a possibility if their PC's aren't able to sustain themselves. Put it in the Rumor board? Make it an echo? Update the rumor board with newly appointed Leaders so someone isn't unnecessarily trying to Way an already stored/deceased leader for days?

I personally am hesitant to just rely on wishing up,  knowing that Staff prefers not to interfere too much with PC's.

Um...The request tool is right on the home page. There is a discord AND GDB and wishing up IG. Not trying to be mean here...But unless the player does not understand the concept of contacting staff. It is a pretty easy thing to figure out...since staff run all 4. I mean, I used to hate contacting staff and there was no discord, GDB or request tool, Yet I still figured out how to use email (and at the time mudmail) And mail off a big old SANVEAN....HELP!!!!!!. Tlaloc...where are youuuuu! Then wish up every 15 minutes.

Quote from: X-D on October 30, 2021, 02:07:27 PM
Um...The request tool is right on the home page. There is a discord AND GDB and wishing up IG. Not trying to be mean here...But unless the player does not understand the concept of contacting staff. It is a pretty easy thing to figure out...since staff run all 4. I mean, I used to hate contacting staff and there was no discord, GDB or request tool, Yet I still figured out how to use email (and at the time mudmail) And mail off a big old SANVEAN....HELP!!!!!!. Tlaloc...where are youuuuu! Then wish up every 15 minutes.

Um.... (I personally hate it when people start off with this word, just leave it out. Its frustrating as it is)

New players aren't always that eager to reach out to staff, and sending in a request which not always gives for an immediate response. It shouldn't take long. The player wants to play, not wait on an emergency kit that might take days or even hours.
The GDB isn't much help, discord can only help so much.

This is an issue that NEW PLAYERS face, as they don't know where to start and which tools are readily available to use.

You and I know what to do in such situations. They don't. They need more guidance and there should generally be more accessibility to clans in order to get them through the first RL week and not having to focus on survival alone without even having the chance to RP.

Idea: Perhaps new PC's should get the opportunity to join the Byn at Chargen.

They would then get a list of do's and don'ts, and active PC's they can RP with. So they at least have food and water, and the player doesn't have to worry about survival while getting to know the city and game in general.

Quote from: X-D on October 30, 2021, 02:07:27 PM
Um...The request tool is right on the home page. There is a discord AND GDB and wishing up IG. Not trying to be mean here...But unless the player does not understand the concept of contacting staff. It is a pretty easy thing to figure out...since staff run all 4. I mean, I used to hate contacting staff and there was no discord, GDB or request tool, Yet I still figured out how to use email (and at the time mudmail) And mail off a big old SANVEAN....HELP!!!!!!. Tlaloc...where are youuuuu! Then wish up every 15 minutes.

There's a huge difference between when you were a newbie (muds were still popular, maybe -1- popular PC game came out every 6 months) and now, when if you don't catch the new player's attention within an hour or two they will go elsewhere to entertain themselves (unless they are lucky and have someone like Iiyola telling them to keep trying).

As a webmaster, I know that I have 10 seconds tops to catch someone's attention when they visit a new page. After that, they are gone forever. How can we catch a new player's attention and make them want to remain within an hour?

The hardcore players who mostly only play Armageddon and never left the 90's will say that if new players aren't willing to put in the effort then they shouldn't be playing on a game like Armageddon.

Shadows of Isildur had a prompt that would let players know when a new player would enter the game. Maybe an idea?

Or allow new characters to choose a clan before they even enter the game and then alert the leaders of those clans the minute that clanned character step into the game. Let the players know that their membership in the clan isn't guaranteed and they are only clanned for the first 10 hours of playtime - long enough to find the leader of that clan.

I agree that any solution leaning heavily on staff interaction, requests, etc, is doomed to fail. These tools aren't the game. Their usage should not be commonplace or the default go-to. It needs to be much more organic than that.

In this case you can help.

And The first page of the home page has a "new to muds" Section, player helpers...GDB, request tool Heck, even a spot that says in great big letters GET LIVE HELP! prefaced with "Stuck? Need an answer?
Get quick help from one of our helpers!"

Newb help is plastered all over, The GDB has a dedicated Ask the staff section!

As to join Byn at chargen...Nah, that would just lead to, I don't want to join the Byn, we should be able to join (insert clan here) at chargen.

Malken, So you are saying that they should not look at the first page of the homepage first or know the rules and look at the docs?

Again, help is plastered all over the very first page you should be looking at.

Though, I would not be against helpers IN game being notified when a first PC on an account logs in, I do not see how that could hurt anything.

But even in game there is newbie area...and even if you type Help newbie you get this.

Quotehelp newbie

Newbie                                                               (Topics)

   Armageddon MUD is a richly-detailed, complex game, and it is be hard to
start out here. Please read through at least the following help files, to
help yourself get started.

     Armageddon                Beginner                  death
     FAQ                       help                      Character
     Control                   Combat                    Communication
     Items                     General                   Geography
     Magick                    Perception                Movement
     Templar                   Topics                    Trade
     Maps                      Roleplaying               Top40

Notes:
   To access the category listings of help files, you will need to type
"help help <topic>" and not just "help <topic>"; "help help control"
will show you a listing of all the help files related to game controls,
whereas "help control" will not work.

Quote from: X-D on October 30, 2021, 02:22:13 PM
Malken, So you are saying that they should not look at the first page of the homepage first or know the rules and look at the docs?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Welcome to the 21st-century gaming community. Ain't nobody got time for dat.

You get them to read the docs AFTER you hooked them in.

You get them to experience the best part the game has to offer and your most important rules within the first hour.

Also, there are dozen of staff and rarely more than 30 players online. How is it that nobody on staff watches what new players go through and try to adjust their experience? How is it that it gets to the point that a new player would starve to death when it takes hours for it to happen? Why do they not intervene through NPCs or other means? Staff has ways to get prompts when someone is starving or in a shitty situation. Why are they letting new players fall through the crack like this?

This is definitely a problem and is faced by several issues currently.

1. Many players, even leadership, have less playtimes. If we each play 2 hours a day. There are high chances that the playtimes won't always match and those 2 hours can vary.
2. Leadership roles and chicken or the egg. Nobles without aides have a harder time and nobles if they can't find byn or people to do things churn. Byn without contracts mean no one wants to join the byn and those leaders churn. Templars with soldiers have a hard time making things happen.
3.We seem to be at a spot now that many roles and clans are open without either the numbers or players who currently wish to play in those roles. Tuluk opened and I am sure more players are there vs elsewhere.

I can go on, but there is not an easy solve for this. If they don't want to go where most of the players are likely to be and have not tried wishing up, there isn't anything in place currently.

I do like the idea of being able to have an npc recruit you into the Byn and you then can gain access to the gdb. If nothing else, maybe you could submit a request to join if you've not heard for staff to help ping the leader to help them find you.

I am against auto-recruiting of any kind Unless some new nothing clan was made just for it.

Anybody who has ever played a leader PC should be as well.

Remember, Even the Byn can and does refuse to recruit people. Remember, Though the Byn is likely the most newb friendly of the clans...it is NOT a newbie clan. How annoying would it be to log in all the time having to deal with dumping new auto-recruits all the time? Or the joy of the newb trying to steal everything, attack PCs while they sleep, Npcs etc. It happens enough as is even with other players around to guide them after IC recruiting. At least the player who stands outside the gates for a couple hours a day and wishes up now and again and uses the request tool might actually be serious about the PC they play and that is seen by staff if they have to animate to recruit or give the PC the info to be recruited.

Malken, I do not agree and that thinking at best just returns you to the times of just a slew of dwarves entering the game and trying to attack everybody in the Gaj or where ever.

I for one am not interested in the type of people who cannot be bothered to spend 15 minutes at least glancing at the instructions.

So let's just let the new players flounder around without any support, you're saying?

You can't compare nowadays with the way Arm was 10 or even 5 years ago.

Due to the lack of leadership availability new players are doomed and will lose interest and quit the game.

Clans auto-recruit all the time; it is the default mode for most tribes, and they get along perfectly well.

I never said no support, In fact I pointed out all the support already in place, and there is a LOT as well as agreeing to one idea.

But I also think there should be minimum standards...and that is already FAR below what it was when many people think was the glory days of Arm RP. (not saying anybody is currently bad) But there was a time when the arm learning curve was MUCH steeper then it is now and many of you remember it. Myself, I considered that a draw. I think many others did too, What a mud with CHALLENGE? No...lets see if it is all hype.

I would also like to suggest that players Look out for the newbs in game and help them when you can. I always do. And I mean always. Heck, more then once I have had staff complain about OOC in "public" But have never complained about what I was doing, just where. And I am not even a "helper".

That is really the BEST thing you can do.


Really Patuk...which tribe can you join without apping TO the tribe and being accepted by staff? That is FAR from auto-recruit and I bet it is rather rare that a first PC can app into arabet.

Quote from: X-D on October 30, 2021, 03:16:11 PM
How annoying would it be to log in all the time having to deal with dumping new auto-recruits all the time? Or the joy of the newb trying to steal everything, attack PCs while they sleep, Npcs etc.

Even if this -did- happen, I see nothing wrong with it.

Bad things should happen, and Zalanthas is a brutal world with brutal justice. If you stole 'everything', the Sergeant would probably kill you or punish you harshly. That's more fun for the Sergeant, and likely anyone that's involved. IC rule-breaking isn't a bad thing. The Byn is a mercenary company that hires anything that lives, breathes, can swing a sword, and doesn't practice gickery. It stands to reason that you'd get delinquents trying to break cots every-so-often. The benefits outweigh the 'consequences', atleast what you think are OOC consequences.

I support a way of joining the Byn through chargen, but only the Byn, IMO. It doesn't fit for any other clan really. The AoD has alot of limitations, and the Sergeants are far choosier then a Byn Sergeant would be.

QuoteThe Byn is a mercenary company that hires anything that lives, breathes, can swing a sword, and doesn't practice gickery.

Not true.

QuoteIt stands to reason that you'd get delinquents trying to break cots every-so-often. The benefits outweigh the 'consequences', atleast what you think are OOC consequences.

Big difference between somebody who is actually playing a PC that does such things and some griefer gaming the system. Which happens far too often with the current system. It was far worse not to many years ago when there was a large push to get new players. Some of you might even remember the New dead dwarf in the gaj/byn/elsewhere every single day, And sometimes that griefer being successful in killing somebodies PC. At which point staff workload to check things out and maybe give a res goes up.

Some Byn sarges are VERY choosy. It would make more sense to auto clan into the crimson winds. But I doubt you would agree.

Quote from: X-D on October 30, 2021, 03:16:11 PM
it is NOT a newbie clan.

It actually is.

Quote from: X-D on October 30, 2021, 03:16:11 PM
How annoying would it be to log in all the time having to deal with dumping new auto-recruits all the time?

Damn, imagine how annoying it would be that we suddenly get dozens of new players a day, poor leadership players having to "dump new recruits all the time". At best, you'd have to dump a couple of players every week or so.

Quote from: X-D on October 30, 2021, 03:16:11 PM
Or the joy of the newb trying to steal everything, attack PCs while they sleep, Npcs etc.

I love how people here constantly chanting "Trust your fellow players, trust your fellow players..." but each time a new idea like this is put forth it's all how players will abuse it... Already going on in Discord and the GDB and the idea has been out for a couple of hours only. The hypocrisy of the player base at its best once more.

Quote from: X-D on October 30, 2021, 03:16:11 PM
Malken, I do not agree and that thinking at best just returns you to the times of just a slew of dwarves entering the game and trying to attack everybody in the Gaj or where ever.

Are you telling me that dwarves are now karma-gated? If not I have no idea how any of this prevents people from rolling dwarves for murder.

I would rather see a dumb idiot do dumb idiot things some more if it means our new players don't literally starve for being unable to join a damn clan. It's a tradeoff I'd take every time, every single time, for sure.

And please, by God, discuss leader turnover with people who die/store as well as yourselves, staff. This could all be avoided if CONTACT SERGEANT actually worked.

Thats funny, I cannot find anywhere in the public docs or byn docs that say it is a newbie clan, In fact, there was places in the byn docs and staff have stated before that it is not a newbie clan.

Where do you find that Malken?

Is it a good clan to learn the ropes if you are a serious newbie...It can be. But that does not make it a newbie clan. It is nothing like smurf village.

As to dumping auto recruit PCs...you honestly think that will help keep new players?

QuoteAre you telling me that dwarves are now karma-gated? If not I have no idea how any of this prevents people from rolling dwarves for murder.

Oh my...that looks like purposeful obtuseness. No and no it does not. But it DOES stop somebody from dropping directly into a clan compound where Pcs do expect a certain amount of safety (I know it is not much but Hey, better then the Gaj) And just doing as they please...Oooh, heavily wounded sleeping PC...etwo club....

Dead PC, dead dwarf, Player makes new account through VPN, rinse, repeat. It has happened before with PCs recruited IG, but at least then a PC sarge had to do some sort of interview. And can stop it from happening ten times in a row. While auto-clan does not. Besides, Getting clanned that first time IS part of the game.

Patuk, Leader turnover is a thing. But that is just as hard to address.

If it was me...I would not have role calls, I would be perfectly happy with a clan being empty till somebody app'd the leader role. Or was promoted to it IG Something that actually used to happen now and again.

QuoteI would rather see a dumb idiot do dumb idiot things some more if it means our new players don't literally starve for being unable to join a damn clan. It's a tradeoff I'd take every time, every single time, for sure.

So, you are saying you are fine with many PCs doing OOC things all the time hurting everybodies play/immersion just to have more people? Seems mildly selfish to me.

I am about done with this thread, But I will summarize my stance.

Adding more on the home page pointing at resources including discord and naming the ask the staff section of the GDB along with instructions for the request tool. AND adding a newbie question section to the request tool (if it does not already exist). Also, In game the starting area should have echos for the first couple PCs on the account naming those and helpers. AND even an in game notification to helpers.

The first page of the home page, yes, quick description of what the game is...BUT, EVERYTHING else should be spelling out the resources.

Game stats and RSS need not be on the front page, that space could be used for new player resources.


And one last thing, All of you posting here so worried about the newbies...How many of you are helpers?

I was helping my friend. But that wasn't sufficient either because I could not help him getting into a clan or finding a leader.

That's where the issue lies.

Oh, I did not mean that Iiyola. I am sure you have been doing your best.

It was meant for others, because the BEST way to keep people is for a real person, be that IG or out to help them.

I have helped MANY players over the years, Mostly in game too...Almost all of them played for more then five years after and several of them are still around some pushing the twenty year mark. Some others might be as well, but many players I never knew or talked to outside the game.

I wonder though, In your friends case...Is this even an active clan...Or clans, if you tried more then one?

Did an actual PC leader exist at the time? Staff generally will not recruit to even an active clan if there is no current leader...and for good reason I say.

Just wondering.

One of the reasons leaders are hard to find is because no one seems to want to play them.  The last Byn sergeant rolecall got  1 applicant.  In the current Kadius/Kurac role Kurac got a couple but we got 0 Kadius.

We sure could use help from the experienced players to play leaders.  Not to put this on the playerbase, but that would certainly go a long way.   I get that they're often annoying to play, I don't particularly care for it myself.

So what we need to address is why is it no one wants to play them?  I think we should address that, and then there'll be leaders available.

Excellent point Halaster.

As for my suggestion of the possibility to have a new PC automatically enroll into the Byn if they so choose...

you could make a starter place where the NPC's guide the new player through some stages. In example:

* New player is in the barracks. An NPC echoes: These are the barracks, get yourself an aba and patch. Here, you can REST or SLEEP.
* New player is in the Mess Hall: The cook says: This is the Mess hall, you can ASK COOK HELP for food. The TUN is where you can FILL your SKIN
* New player is in the training area: This is a sparring ring. You can spar with other PC's but also this Dummy. Be sure to  switch on your MERCY ON.

Have a rumor board set up in the barracks with all current PC's and leaders. And make an announcement that, if the player needs help, they can WISH ALL.

ETC ETC

I cannot speak for others. But I will give my take on playing a leader for me.

Firstly, I do not app into leader roles...I might if I was asked, but I will never ask to play one. I have always hated it especially when I am playing a clan that has people who could be promoted to the spot. Organic is the way to go when possible...Yes, I know, not templars or nobles etc. But even merchant houses should be changed I think...Into corporations not families.

Now, when I do get a PC who has managed to move into leadership. I enjoy it...But like playing a HG it does wear on one. I tend to hold the role a good bit of time...usually at least 6 months and a couple 18 months. But when I get out of one I will avoid it for 1-2 years at least. Same as I do Half-giants.

Playing a leader in any clan tends to be a lot of work...and yes the role can be fun...and you help other people have fun and all that, which is incentive to play one I guess...now and again. But perhaps there could be something to help sweeten the deal a bit...I have no idea what. Because anything I can think of sounds more like bribery. Like Gaining a karma point for playing active leader for at least 6 months...but it going away once used.

Anyway, No way I could play 2 6 month leaders back to back.

(edit) Which is another reason I like organic, you are assured at least some time NOT as a leader. ;)

My gripe with Leadership roles are the reports, not that I am a great leader pc player or anything, but that is the reason I will not do it again. The amount of work that goes INTO writing the reports is a bit...The issue is the game world moves much faster than staff typically responds so you are stuck with two options: 1. Move on with your plans without staff sanction and repercussions because staff don't have time ooc to respond quickly or 2. Wait and hope your time to execute your plan doesn't pass because ooc or IC changes.

I don't believe there is really a need for Kadius PCs considering our downturn of players.

I think there is more of a need for Salarr than any of the others. Kurac not really since the camo gear nerf and spice rotting code.

How it usually goes:
Staff: Send in reports every two weeks
Leader pc: Sends in 2 reports before the 1st is answered.

That is all.

PS> Apping leaders, except nobles, I am not a fan of even though I have done it in the past. They are no where near capable enough skill wise..Yes code does matter.

Quote from: Iiyola on October 30, 2021, 02:00:12 PM
Its not his first PC, some have died before but he started playing about a month ago.

Still, even after having made a variety of PC's, new players have hardly learned how to sustain themselves. Hell, even I wouldn't be able to survive if I did not join a Clan in the nick of time.

Point is: There is no PC leadership available right now. Be it Byn, Kadius, Salarr (sparsely available), Militia.

But Iiyola, why won't you friend go to Tuluk?

No, he doesn't have to be forced to go to Tuluk and needing to learn a completely new culture while he just got settled in in Southern culture. He JUST got to learn how to find his way around Allanak, Luir's. He shouldn't have to be forced to relearn the mapping of a completely new city and its do's and don'ts.

Staff needs to step up and make NPC Leaders available for PC's to join a clan.

Seems to be the main post, save the back and forth on recruitment NPC debate.

1)

QuoteThere is no PC leadership available right now. Be it Byn, Kadius, Salarr (sparsely available), Militia.

A) Correct. There are active role-calls to fill those roles. That would suggest there are no leaders available and thus...? You won't reach a leader via traditional IC means. Further, if there already is a leader in a clan that you can't reach after X amount of reasonable time - let's say 3-4 RL days since people get busy IRL, you also won't have much leader contact, as they are either 1) Wrong time-zone of your play times, or 2) Awol/RL slammed. Getting accepted doesn't solve a lack of interaction in most clans/tribes. So, the question is, why is there an attempt to join something specifically self-sabotaging to your character for story/RP? Food and water? There are very active clans to solve that. There are methods of obtaining it without a clan. - If it's absolutely vital you be in "Salarr" within a day or two because of your background, wish up or request?

2)

QuoteStaff needs to step up and make NPC Leaders available for PC's to join a clan.

A) We have and do as it comes to our attention and is warranted.
B) We respect players in leadership-positions time and don't immediately irish-jig dance all over their toes for running their clan/recruitment because they happened to have an RL engagement take place for a few days or operate on a different time zone than you do (Generic you). One wonders if  these players tend to churn because this clearly isn't entertained from others?
C) And I'll point out the statement is just highly insulting and demotivating. STs on up to Producers volunteering a part-time job a week to create items, run plots, answer requests, animate, and so on "Need to step up" because they may have been sleeping or working, or already assisting another player at the time this was needed and / or the various methods that help IS offered are ignored or 'not good enough'. Wonder why staff churn happens, too.

So, I respect your friend and their effort. I want them to have fun. In order to facilitate that, they can - as laid out elsewhere.

- Wish up and ask for an animation. They will either get one, be told a good time to catch the leader, or be asked to wait a short period of time to allow a chance for that PC to PC interaction to take place.
- Ask for help in discord
- Submit a request for dialogue with staff on how to tackle their current issue.
- Make a friend in-game that can help them get food/water, learn of an appropriate clan to join with, etc.
- Get spotted by staff and be guided should we catch it.

Your friend, the leader and staff's time all just became respected in the same go.

QuoteAnd please, by God, discuss leader turnover with people who die/store as well as yourselves, staff.

Just touched on a nice big reason above.

QuoteAlso, there are dozen of staff and rarely more than 30 players online. How is it that nobody on staff watches what new players go through and try to adjust their experience? How is it that it gets to the point that a new player would starve to death when it takes hours for it to happen? Why do they not intervene through NPCs or other means? Staff has ways to get prompts when someone is starving or in a shitty situation. Why are they letting new players fall through the crack like this?

I really appreciate the general staff are garbage drum you focus on for most posts, Malken.

You're actively staffing (or even playing) the game for your current intel? You're actively on port to see how many staff are on for those 30* players, right? And none of us try to watch, in our log-in times, and actively send/animate for them, either? I've yet to see a new player starve to death. Why do you assume we are, or are "actively" trying to, with such a statement?

As stated above already, if we could ALL respect one anthers time, I'd bet that would solve a good chunk of leadership churn, new player churn and, staff churn.

What if a few clans were designated starter clans, and in the documentation, sergeants or parallel level leaders for those clans were assigned a specific contact keyword that also echoed to staff.

Assuming the Byn was on the list, a new player could "contact bynsarge" and get routed to a byn sergeant online, or, be routed to a staff member if no pc sergeants are online.  If the staff member was busy they could always arrange a better time for the chat in ooc sends.

Quote from: Shabago on October 30, 2021, 05:34:10 PM

QuoteAnd please, by God, discuss leader turnover with people who die/store as well as yourselves, staff.

Just touched on a nice big reason above.

No, that isn't a reason. One person applying per role would be fine if they stuck around. They don't. Something is broken.

I tell you another thing that really helps...If you are playing a leader...and are the only one...give that recruiter job to your second in command (run past staff first) But I have found that to help a LOT...Oh sure, I might boot that recruit back out as the actual leader (only happened once) But did smooth things a ton.

So im going to add my own two cents to this post as I was the friend mentioned.

Ill start by saying I really have been enjoying the game, the lore, the roleplay, and details of all the different things you can do/say. This has been one of the best roleplay experiences I have ever had thanks to everything just being coded into the game itself. I love it and have been addicted since I started (again).

Their is a MASSIVE learning curve coming into this game, not only as a new player to Armageddon, but also new to MUD games in general. And I cannot imagine someone coming into this game without knowing someone first who could offer some guidance, which luckily I had. But I dont like to ask for In Game help, I prefer to keep things as organic as possible. And when I simply couldnt reach people I just assumed I would eventually. Or I would reach them, set something up, and then I'd never hear from them again because they stored or maybe got busy(?). I dont know for sure, and thats fine, people have lives and I totally get that.

I thought I was doing everything right, I made some contacts in Allanak, I paid some people to help my character get better at Hunting/Foraging/Training and even started some really cool story between myself and another influential player, but In order to keep myself a float I had to be Hunting every day, every minute, in order to get food and Water. I wasnt always successful in my hunts, grebbing wasnt amazing either. When I got food I often burned things and eating burned food I believe was coded to make you thirstier quicker(?) Im not sure about that for sure but it seemed like it. Water is expensive and when you have no income it can easily get out of hand, specially when I was drinking a waterskin a day being out int he sun. And eventually this GRIND became tedius and tiring, I came here to Roleplay but it felt I had to be grinding every day to stay alive to I could find someone to join a clan. If I took a break from hunting/grebbing I felt it left my three steps behind and it was HARD getting my levels back to normal, help me god if something happened to me in that time, like being attacked by a tarantual while hunting Chalton (Next to Allanak, this happened), only reason I survived that was because I managed to get to the gate with 1 stamina left and the guards killed it.

Im not saying I want the game to be easier. But I felt like I did everything in my power and knowledge to try and stay alive, without the intervention of staff, and as a new player I probably had the advantage of knowing a current player very closely, which not everyone has. And I still failed. My last option was to join the Byn, and I tried, I even found a runner and asked them to have the sergeant contact me if they see them. I tried making other contacts with another group and they refused me because I was unskilled, I told them I'd keep practicing and get back to them. If I eventually decided i'd stay in town and just wait it out, but I grew hungry or thirsty and was forced to go out and hunt again. I had some coin left but I couldnt waste anymore or I'd not be able to afford the Byn entrance fee. I could have spent it but eventually i'd get back into the same situation I was in now. Dying in the city, calling for help and trying to reach all my contacts with non online.

I reached out to staff eventually, but I didnt want them to "save" me. I had just hoped to explain to them my frustration, and maybe something could be done to make it easier for new players like myself. Not a cheat card, but at the very least we would have a "chance" to get into the Byn or another clan (Previous character I tried to join another clan and I ran into a similar situation. Managed to contact someone but life happened and I never heard from them again. Eventually I used up all my coin trying to stay afloat in the city and I eventually had to make a new character, saving the details between that and my death.) anything to give us a fighting chance anyhow... Im not really good at following outside sources, I generally work with information thats in front of my face. If someone says I should join the Byn, ill probably make that my goat, if someone says Join Salarr, thats the direction ill take. If a clan is short handed I may not know that. I invest time into getting into /that/ clan and I kinda tunnel vision on doing it. Last I checked their were Byn Leaders and the previous clan I tried to join HAD a leader who I was in touch with and paid for arrangements to go down and meet with them to join. But they, as I said before, lost touch with me for what ever reason.

My first character had a great experience, but I managed to join the Byn fairly early in his creation. This was before Tuluk was opened and it seemed their were more activity in Allanak? Maybe it was the Byn in general. But Im sure its credited to the fact he managed to get into a clan early. Every other character after that struggled HARD every day. And I did not enjoy it, I made attempts at my two other longest living characters to join and ran into the same issue with both. Bad times? Or lack of leadership in the clans I wanted to join/had been referred too join and established some sort of connection with that eventually ran into a dead end.

I just wanna say im not blaming players, as someone who has been roleplaying for over 20 years now, I get it. Life happens. Im just giving my experience as a new player.

Im not sure what the best solution is, but unless you have some sort of guide, your either messaging the staff a lot. Or you're failing a lot and maybe becoming demotivated and eventually wanting to try something else.

Quote from: Patuk on October 30, 2021, 05:45:51 PM

Quote from: Shabago on October 30, 2021, 05:34:10 PM

QuoteAnd please, by God, discuss leader turnover with people who die/store as well as yourselves, staff.

Just touched on a nice big reason above.

No, that isn't a reason. One person applying per role would be fine if they stuck around. They don't. Something is broken.

Really? Playing a leader and having the player base at large ICly stand on their necks and get all annoyed at them because they weren't available to run a showing of blue linens, attend a tea-party in the Estate, produce a new walking stick MC, get yelled at for not having materials stocked for their underlings and berated by 3 of the 4 people in their head by Way, as they're "Not answering them in a timely manner" while attempting 5 minutes of personal RP growth for their PC inside 4 RL hours logged in - disregard of respecting their time has no impact on churn rates?

Oh. also It wasnt ALWAYS bad. But the grind was crappy :( I did do a lot of fun roleplay and messed around but I was mostly spending my time trying to stay alive.

Quote from: Shabago on October 30, 2021, 05:55:25 PM

Quote from: Patuk on October 30, 2021, 05:45:51 PM

Quote from: Shabago on October 30, 2021, 05:34:10 PM

QuoteAnd please, by God, discuss leader turnover with people who die/store as well as yourselves, staff.

Just touched on a nice big reason above.

No, that isn't a reason. One person applying per role would be fine if they stuck around. They don't. Something is broken.

Really? Playing a leader and having the player base at large ICly stand on their necks and get all annoyed at them because they weren't available to run a showing of blue linens, attend a tea-party in the Estate, produce a new walking stick MC, get yelled at for not having materials stocked for their underlings and berated by 3 of the 4 people in their head by Way, as they're "Not answering them in a timely manner" while attempting 5 minutes of personal RP growth for their PC inside 4 RL hours logged in - disregard of respecting their time has no impact on churn rates?

I took 'above' to mean the post about the amount of applicants for the Kuraci and Kadian role calls - which I applied for. Pick me and prove me wrong. Fortunately, we won't have to guess at anything, because people weighing in with their personal reasons should trickle into the thread soon enough.

Quote from: Shabago on October 30, 2021, 05:34:10 PM
A) Correct. There are active role-calls to fill those roles. That would suggest there are no leaders available and thus...? You won't reach a leader via traditional IC means. Further, if there already is a leader in a clan that you can't reach after X amount of reasonable time - let's say 3-4 RL days since people get busy IRL, you also won't have much leader contact, as they are either 1) Wrong time-zone of your play times, or 2) Awol/RL slammed.

And that's understandable, but creates a situation that is not helping the newer players getting into the game.

Quote
Getting accepted doesn't solve a lack of interaction in most clans/tribes. So, the question is, why is there an attempt to join something specifically self-sabotaging to your character for story/RP? Food and water?

This PC in question did everything he could to stay alive. As a player not having to worry about the basics of your new PC, in example dying of thirst of hunger, takes a lot of stress off the player who has invested into creating a PC with background, goals, etc.

Quote
There are very active clans to solve that. There are methods of obtaining it without a clan. - If it's absolutely vital you be in "Salarr" within a day or two because of your background, wish up or request?

The point is that reaching out through the request tool its no longer organically obtained, wishing up doesn't always work, staff has their private lives too, it breaks the immersion of the roleplay and new players aren't very aware that this is an option. There should be put more emphasis to the possibility of this avenue.

Quote

QuoteStaff needs to step up and make NPC Leaders available for PC's to join a clan.

A) We have and do as it comes to our attention and is warranted. -I'm not saying staff isn't doing anything. But the way it goes currently, it just doesn't work as well as we hope it does.-
B) We respect players in leadership-positions time and don't immediately irish-jig dance all over their toes for running their clan/recruitment because they happened to have an RL engagement take place for a few days or operate on a different time zone than you do (Generic you). One wonders if  these players tend to churn because this clearly isn't entertained from others? -again, understandable, but perhaps something else needs to be added to fill the void
C) And I'll point out the statement is just highly insulting and demotivating. STs on up to Producers volunteering a part-time job a week to create items, run plots, answer requests, animate, and so on "Need to step up" because they may have been sleeping or working, or already assisting another player at the time this was needed and / or the various methods that help IS offered are ignored or 'not good enough'. Wonder why staff churn happens, too.

I did not mean it to come across as insulting and I apologize. I tried to state it with encouragement, but unfortunately that doesn't always work in write.

Again, I understand this is an issue that is known with staff. I as a player would love to contribute and having seen in person how hard it is for some new players to keep their PC's alive, I'd like to open up the discussion with the hopes of finding a resolve. I've offered a few ideas which I hope will be taken into consideration.
This post was not meant as an attack to staff, but moreso to open up to the issue that we're currently facing.

Quote from: Shabago on October 30, 2021, 05:34:10 PM
I really appreciate the general staff are garbage drum you focus on for most posts, Malken.

I wrote a helpful answer with some suggestions but then I just saw that so fuck it. There's nothing else to be said by either me or the rest of the players when you get into aggressive defensive mode. You might as well lock the thread now.

I've found that it's oftentimes a hard thing to keep interest in a role, especially one where your gameplay is mostly stemming from making your minions do things (nobles especially have this problem, due to the nature of not wanting to get your posh highborn hands dirty), if there is a lack of interaction. This can be due to playtimes, but I've found that sometimes 10+ hours a day are needed to really be able to reach everyone single handedly.
It then comes down to either having a few very good minions to reach the people you need to (bless your hearts, those who are the good ones), or some help staff-side to keep things running. (This can just go like "Hey, is amos even still around?" so I don't spend hours contact spamming amos only to find out they stored.)

I'll admit that having a large turnover in leadership, both on the other end of the clans (hey, merchant amos I've been cultivating has retired, on, merchant malik is completely different, now the plan starts from ground 0), and in staffside changes (Having certain long term plans change because staff, albeit understandably, doesn't always have the whole history, or just doesn't agree with the last staffer to staff the clan, meaning plans have to be delayed and slowed down more), and my own availability, which can go from 10+ hours a day to 10 minutes a week, make it disheartening to restart projects multiple times, and to sometimes spend way more time on something simply because of scheduling.

As for leader retainment: I've found that having an encouraging staffmember (my inner breed needs to be told I'm doing an okay job sometimes :P) , fun to play with clan members, or having an exciting rival, often are factors in keeping me interested in the game. If I lack one or most of these, things stagnate. And not logging on causes plots to peter out, which only increases the problem. 

Oh, as a final note for retaining leaders: Without fail, every single time I receive a kudos about a character current or past, this has either motivated me to play, or drawn me out of a hiatus. So kudos your fellow players, it makes all the difference  8)

The other avenue besides leadership voids that we can address is:

How can we support a newbie to keep their PC alive long enough to actually get involved with the going ons in game?

You could, in example: boost forage, skinning and cooking skills.

When approving the PC through email, offer a list of current leaders in said email that they can connect with, should they want to join such a clan.

Moved to new thread.

Quote from: Halaster on October 30, 2021, 06:14:17 PM
What might be useful is to break down what the issues are on a per clan leadership role.  Meaning, the Byn has different issues than Kadius who has different than city elf tribes, and so on.

I can't speak to a lot of it as I don't play leaders because I'm on staff.  So what are the issues making people not want to play leadership roles in the following:

1. Byn
2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another)
3. City elves
4. Desert elves
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk)
6. Noble Houses
7. Other

Maybe make this a new thread? :)

Baconbits makes me sorta wish I had been playing in nak.

Sounds to me like just the type PC mine have helped umpteen times in the past.

Also Baconbits...Now, I do not know your PC...personality and all that. But IRL and in game, Panhandling is a tried and true method to keep one going till things break for them. Not to mention, Allanak has some real easy automated ways to make pretty good money. At least one is pretty safe, just smelly.

I once had a PC raided down to his boots...made it to nak with like 7 hp chased by gith. A noble threw some pants at him (later found that was staff) And begged for a pack, a cloak, weapon and waterskin. Foraged back to enough coin to join the byn.


Also, somebody do make a thread for the leadership part, I just now read the rest of Halasters question...the list part.

Quote from: Iiyola on October 30, 2021, 06:30:23 PM

Quote from: Halaster on October 30, 2021, 06:14:17 PM
What might be useful is to break down what the issues are on a per clan leadership role.  Meaning, the Byn has different issues than Kadius who has different than city elf tribes, and so on.

I can't speak to a lot of it as I don't play leaders because I'm on staff.  So what are the issues making people not want to play leadership roles in the following:

1. Byn
2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another)
3. City elves
4. Desert elves
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk)
6. Noble Houses
7. Other

Maybe make this a new thread? :)

Done.

Ya'll got this rolling before I even knew it existed.

On the absence of leaders, I know that in the HRPT wiped a few off the board, and some of those were particularly long lived. I don't know about others, but for awhile I didn't even read leadership posts after. I just wanted less and zalanthas. I imagine a good number of the other leaders wiped felt the same or worse.

Quote from: Halaster on October 30, 2021, 06:14:17 PM
What might be useful is to break down what the issues are on a per clan leadership role.  Meaning, the Byn has different issues than Kadius who has different than city elf tribes, and so on.

I can't speak to a lot of it as I don't play leaders because I'm on staff.  So what are the issues making people not want to play leadership roles in the following:

1. Byn
2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another)
3. City elves
4. Desert elves
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk)
6. Noble Houses
7. Other

I'd like to start by saying that I have been enjoying the game lately, and for awhile now. If I had to stab at this list:

1. I've just done it so many times i'm not really interested in doing it again

2. It seems like great ideas for this collective group keep getting buried by... I don't know. They have seem far more railroaded and restricted. There's been some changes to recruiting and ability, maybe that's changing. Ya'll took my expansion away. I want to feel like my character can also be a character, and have plot arcs within the job.

3. Seem fine but I hear people complain alot? Just not my style.

4. What is my purpose in life? Not really my style. The culture has been set up that we will ever only minimally interact and not break rules.

5. I love these. I think the plots have run well for years. I feel like staff really needed to put effort into purpose other than an annual dungeon crawl in the sewers. Things like simraider and such can be expanded on--but having an army unit (which I WANT TO HAVE) can be difficult when the only army is a bunch of pirate talking dwarves and muls. 9Fixed this recently)

6. Who tf isn't trying to play in noble houses? Take a bath, plebs. The only problem here is closing or restricting them.

7. Leaders can feel a lack of gratitude in different forms. My personal frustrations weren't exactly a structure or leader role thing, but communication.

(8.) Sometimes life is a real thing not just an excuse to not log in. Playing a leader is... who posted .... Lairos! 5 RL years!? I salute you sir. my sanity would be gone. I'd never go in back-to-back.

Ok i'm the asshole that typed this while a new thread was made. Whoops.

+1 on making smart assessments about playtimes with leaders, this is and has always been a thing that doesn't need fixing.

+1 Patuk. If turn over is massive (I genuinely due to my roles have been out of the loop on seeing this lately) among leadership positions, especially in focused areas, worth a look eh?

Quote from: Baconbits on October 30, 2021, 05:59:20 PM
Oh. also It wasnt ALWAYS bad. But the grind was crappy :( I did do a lot of fun roleplay and messed around but I was mostly spending my time trying to stay alive.

By the way, welcome, and glad you're having *some* fun. :D

Just to play devil's advocate a bit. It's supposed to be hard. The game is supposed to be challenging, the intention is that new PCs struggle to survive and have to scrimp and greb and beg and steal and figure out how to land on their feet. In that sense, the early days of Arm is a bit like a permadeath dungeon runner. You're supposed to die all the time and get 'used' to dying all the time. So that when you finally have a long-lived character and they die.. it doesn't come as too much of a surprise. Staff are not supposed to be watching over us and stopping us from dying.

While it is a roleplaying game, it is still a game, and you have to learn it and practice and get good at it to get further and 'beat the levels'.

I *wish* I could get some of that experience back now. I love those first few days of a new PC that are almost actually still a little bit hard, but that challenge of a 'new game' will never come back. Once you've figured it all out, then that phase is over.

That said, there is a wealth of information on the website, in mansa's guide, in the brains of fellow players etc on how to survive. My honest advice for a struggling new player would be not to get too attached or hung up on character concepts yet, save the really good ones for later and just practice and learn the game part. Find the right spots to forage, figure out the little 'activities' to make coin (they are on the website), make friends when you can, most people will help you, sometimes they will also kill you.

On clans and leadership availability... that just seems like bad timing and bad luck. Activity ebbs and flows all over the game, one minute Luir's is all the rage, the next it's Storm or Allanak. One minute Kadius is booming, the next they're all dead and everyone is in Kurac. Sometimes you get unlucky and drop into a quiet place, sometimes you get super lucky and drop into the middle of chaotic madness. It's just.. kinda how it goes.

I tend to go through a whole bunch of short-lived characters (like 10+) before I finally land on one that 'clicks', that finds the right people I enjoy, that develops into a character I want to play. Some of this is just about expectations I guess.

Quote from: X-D on October 30, 2021, 02:22:13 PM

Newb help is plastered all over, The GDB has a dedicated Ask the staff section!

Ask the staff is different from the newbie questions subforum.

Give all leadership roles Who C. For the love of God.

I personally think a few clans should have a complex NPC with a robust discussion list/animated talking points about joining Clan X. Make it the Byn, the Legions, the Arm of the Dragon, and the Atrium (or w/e).

Make it a part of the "newbie starting area". A PC can just decide to join a clan from chargen.

Clan leaders get notified when new people login and join their clan. They show up on Who C with some symbol that denotes its a new player.

I think on boarding new PCs would help a ton. The game's learning curve is ridiculously hard as is. Let's set up new Players for success, even if that leads to some new carru boot collections.

This isn't anyone's fault. We are in 2021. It's a new time and era. Let's keep positive about how to change the front end of the game to be more accessible to new players. Let's keep positive and dive into the back end of the game and figure out why leadership PCs aren't sticking around and aren't feeling fulfilled devoting hours of their life into a dead end. Let's do it. Without throwing shit at one another.

On the topic of the derailment, being able to app a PC straight into a clan would be so nice. I've stored at least three characters that were meant to join a clan straight out of chargen but because I couldn't find a PC leader in a reasonable amount of time I just stored.

(moved my own post to the other thread (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57365.0.html) to stay on topic about newbie stuff)

The only recruitable clan that even remotely makes sense to me to be able to app straight into without a special app is the Byn - and even that feels a bit iffy. You aren't doing a newbie any favors by dropping them into a clan that may not have activity around their playtimes, or people that are in a good position guide them. And I hate the idea of non-newbies doing it. Bypassing the clan's leader PCs when it comes to recruitment is a good way make them feel even less empowered and engaged in their role, in my experience.

As for ideas to get people into clans when there's an issue with timing and finding people, I think we should have a mechanism where you can go to the gates of whatever clan you want to join, and do something like: 'recuitment Amosa', where your character's name or alias is Amosa, and it'd leave a message with the gate guard for the clan that your character is seeking recruitment. And then it'd automatically post a message on an IC rumor board in the clan like, 'the muscular, stern-eyed woman calling herself Amosa is asking about recruitment.' Or maybe it could even be put up on the clan gdb somehow. It wouldn't just be the ones with hiring powers that would see the message either - that way anyone in the clan could know someone was seeking recruitment, and maybe reach out to interact and get the ball rolling.

Also - delegated hiring. Give semi-leader PCs (Trainee Merchants/Corporals/etc) the coded ability to hire with the expectation that they only do so with permission. The leader PC gives them permission to interview a specific prospective hire and bring them on, or something like that, and if it's abused there are IC consequences - demotion, the hiring ability taken away, that sort of thing. And maybe if there's no active leader PC and there's someone promising trying to join the clan, they could reach out to staff for permission to hire that person.

I feel like the game used to have a near perfect environment for newbies in the GMHs back when they had hunter branches. They were places where you could learn about crafting, hunting, and politics. At their best, they'd have a wonderfully organic synergy, the crafting branch giving purpose to the hunting branch and vice versa. When one side waned, the other would support it. An experienced Merchant could guide and support hunters, and experienced hunters could help out new crafters in more ways than just bringing them things. I really think bringing back the hunter branches in the GMHs would do wonders for the game, not just when it comes to giving new players good environments to be in, but when it comes to leader burnout for those particular clans as well.

[moved to the other thread]

More relevant to the newbie problem: water is more of a problem than food in my experience. Maybe thirst should be reduced for new players, new characters or (gasp) even all characters. Vets already know the various ways to supply themselves with water and don't die from thirst.

Allowing higher-ranked minions to recruit is another thing that would help if the leader has low playtimes or happens to be absent for any reason, temporarily or permanently.

I dunno. When I am playing a Byn Sergeant, one of my least favorite things about the role is getting contacted 2-3 times a day by a new Pc wanting to join.

They give me a generic background. For all I know they are a secret magicker.  But I won't find that out in the interview. For all I know they're a criminal, but they aren't going to tell me that during the interview. I give them a regurgitated shpiel about the rules that they may or may not follow, and could easily be given by a NPC. Then they get an Aba and choice of weapons.

Then the actual fun begins. Through actual play in the clan, all becomes clear and dynamic.

The actual interview process is about 90% meaningless and a waste of time for the leadership PC. Instead of plotting or going on contracts, and when they are on contract elsewhere and a newbie finds your mind and wants to join....it's just another cause of getting pulled in 30 different t direction and this one is perhaps the dumbest, considering the onboard could ostensibly happen through a NPC at the Byn gates or during PC creation, and drop them inside the compound instead of the Gaj.

Quote from: Veselka on October 31, 2021, 12:41:52 PM
The actual interview process is about 90% meaningless and a waste of time for the leadership PC. Instead of plotting or going on contracts, and when they are on contract elsewhere and a newbie finds your mind and wants to join....it's just another cause of getting pulled in 30 different t direction and this one is perhaps the dumbest, considering the onboard could ostensibly happen through a NPC at the Byn gates or during PC creation, and drop them inside the compound instead of the Gaj.

I think that is most active time wasting thing for a leadership PC, IC. I think that could be done for GMH's also, but not Noble Houses as well, those characters have to be the cream of the crop.

I really like the idea of an option for new players to have characters start out in a clan from character creation, if not the byn perhaps a different or new clan that is a designated newbie clan (which to be honest I always felt like the byn was kind of a clan for newbies to join to learn things, but reading some comments I guess that was wrong of me to think)? I'm not sure how that would work out, but it could be useful, especially for new players now? I know so many people that have shown interest in Armageddon but have been completely turned off by the sheer amount of information to shift through on the website. Perhaps an extended newbie area that has a small temporary clan to teach basics of survival? Yeah there are easy and safe ways to make coin but new players don't always think about those when they are first starting out and trying to learn the layout, as well as learn customs, their PC, other PCs, how to interact with others, and the world around them (especially if they are completely new to MUDs like I was when I first started out). Reading the documents, retaining the information and also implementing it are all very different things IMO. Things that are easy and come to me now, were things I had to constantly ask about or reread when I was starting out.

I know for a fact that if I had found Armageddon on my own, I would have been extremely overwhelmed and not lasted long at all. I don't like bothering people, even still now I don't like bothering people with questions, especially when I feel as though I should know the answer to the question, or should be able to figure out another path on my own. Maybe have the NPCs that buy things that grebbers can collect have a small locked post in the rumor boards, or have a rumor board set up in the newbie area having 'job listings' for those NPCs available for new players to see would be an option? (I honestly don't remember what the newbie area entails as is? I have been thinking about going to it again to refresh myself but feel as though I shouldn't because I've been playing awhile already?

Honestly, the amount of information on the website is still overwhelming to me, I like to know things before I play, which is why there are many races I have still yet to play, i have read and reread the documentation, but I still don't feel confident enough to play for example a desert elf. I have had a concept for a desert elf written up for over a year and still don't feel ready despite reading and rereading the documentation.

When I was starting out I asked my husband so many things, sure I made my own mistakes as well and definitely learned from them, but when you start out there's a lot of information your PC WOULD know, that you don't know simply because you are new. Stuff that isn't even included in the things you should know page, or at least it wasn't, I haven't checked that page in a minute. Most would say go to the GDB or discord with these questions but sometimes it's nice to know someone you can ask without feeling like it's a menial question, or feeling like you are bothering anyone over something small. Not to mention sometimes it's just a quick question in the moment, like something as simple as is chocolate a thing? Is rice a thing? (I was and am still an over thinker when it comes to small details).

I do like your suggestion about having a job board in the newbie area as newbie quests to learn the game from combat to grebbing to crafting.

I don't think an auto join for clans is a good as it requires the leaders (and other players) to give a tour of the compound/clan grounds.

Job board in newbie area seems fine to me as well.

A tour of the byn grounds can be easily automated and if someone has played enough in a clan then there's no reason to make them wait around for a leader. Next time I join the byn maybe I can oocly ask for us to make the tour virtual

Sure you can, We all do...But we are talking about new players I thought.

Quote from: X-D on October 31, 2021, 07:00:20 PM
Sure you can, We all do...But we are talking about new players I thought.

Definitely, and with new players, I feel like a script can load up an NPC who forces the PC to follow them, leads them around the compound, and does the whole Shpiel. Tells them the rules. Other PCs that are around may contribute or follow along. At the end of the tour, the NPC poofs away with an emote, and the new PC is left in the compound.

Along with this, scripting a notification to online T'zai Byn Sergeants that a new player has joined the clan.

Honestly -- I wouldn't mind a bit of the OOC-ness of this, because it's honestly a drag on the leadership role to constantly be pulled back to the compound to recruit New PC Soandso, who may or may not log in ever again, and take another 30 minutes to an hour of your life away for it.

This should be automated. And I think it can be automated in a tasteful, helpful way to both the new PC / player and the leadership role.

I'm on the fence for that suggestion, but more for than not for it.  If it's only for the new player's first couple characters or something like that.

Quote from: Lotion on October 31, 2021, 05:14:29 PM
A tour of the byn grounds can be easily automated and if someone has played enough in a clan then there's no reason to make them wait around for a leader. Next time I join the byn maybe I can oocly ask for us to make the tour virtual

The "tour" can even just be a URL with a map of the Byn compound, a list of rules, and the current training schedule. (Hey, why doesn't this exist already? It'd be a pretty simple project.)

Strongly in favor of automating the newbie -> Byn pipeline. I think it could be done in a way that's less obnoxious for Sergeants than the status quo and successfully converts some of those linkdead-in-the-Gaj folks.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on November 01, 2021, 01:20:06 PM

Quote from: Lotion on October 31, 2021, 05:14:29 PM
A tour of the byn grounds can be easily automated and if someone has played enough in a clan then there's no reason to make them wait around for a leader. Next time I join the byn maybe I can oocly ask for us to make the tour virtual

The "tour" can even just be a URL with a map of the Byn compound, a list of rules, and the current training schedule. (Hey, why doesn't this exist already? It'd be a pretty simple project.).

That's fine.

Feels like people are forgetting this is ultimately a roleplay game. The process of getting into the Byn (or any other clan), the quest for finding someone and having to ask around for them, the process of being interviewed, the process of getting a tour and being shown where you can keep your stuff etc - these are all opportunities for RP and scenes and potential for other things to happen.

Sure if you've done it 100 times maybe you don't appreciate it anymore, but these simple little interactions at the beginning of any character, even for vet players, are usually when most people are figuring out their character, who they are, how do they talk, how to they respond to questions, are they confident, bold, shy, nervous etc.

These are like core experiences for early character development, and all the better that they predictable and routine most of the time, because you can easily compare how your characters behave. If they are 100% the same every single time... are you making identical characters one after another?

Now, for a NEW player... these are some of the first roleplay experiences they might ever have in the game... and you guys are really discussing automating it and pointing them at a map? The Byn isn't seen as a 'newbie' clan because it buffs up your weak characters, but because it's a good place for learning about the game and importantly how to roleplay in a controlled and 'safe-ish' environment with good exposure to theme (harsh).

That tour that your Sergeant (or Trooper) has done twenty times might be boring for you but it might also be in awe inspiring experience for a new player who hasn't experienced roleplay at the level of Arm before.. depending on how you play it. That could make or break the game for them. These are all valuable scenes.. if your PC is sick and tired of doing tours... Roleplay how sick and tired of it they are. If my first experience of Arm had been an automated joining of a clan and then a link to a map... I don't think I'd be here now.

About the only thing I agree with here is.. perhaps some mechanism of getting the names of people looking for leaders.. to leaders.. But honestly, if you're online and you've found the Leader-Of-Choice's name on the rumor board and you're trying to contact them during your play hours but having no luck.... it's probably not the clan for you right now.

Maso says what I did...Only better.

Quote from: Veselka on October 31, 2021, 03:38:12 AM
Give all leadership roles Who C. For the love of God.

The main issue with this is that some leaders have used it to punish players.  Like the sergeant types who c, sees that Nandor the Relentless is online.  A little while later when Nandor shows up and the sergeant gives him shit about not being there, Nandor can lie and say he was on gate duty (code for being logged out).  But the sergeant knows he was lying and gives him shit about it.

I have no idea how much that happened, but it happened.  And I'm not saying we shouldn't give it to more leadership, maybe we should.  Just giving a reason why there's been hesitation in the past.

Quote from: Halaster on November 01, 2021, 04:06:06 PM

Quote from: Veselka on October 31, 2021, 03:38:12 AM
Give all leadership roles Who C. For the love of God.

The main issue with this is that some leaders have used it to punish players.  Like the sergeant types who c, sees that Nandor the Relentless is online.  A little while later when Nandor shows up and the sergeant gives him shit about not being there, Nandor can lie and say he was on gate duty (code for being logged out).  But the sergeant knows he was lying and gives him shit about it.

I have no idea how much that happened, but it happened.  And I'm not saying we shouldn't give it to more leadership, maybe we should.  Just giving a reason why there's been hesitation in the past.

Doesn't being barriered hide you from who-C?
Also it seems like a leader issue, not a game one, if someone does what you described.

"A little while later when Nandor shows up and the sergeant gives him shit about not being there, Nandor can lie and say he was on gate duty (code for being logged out).  But the sergeant knows he was lying and gives him shit about it."

I don't see an issue with this, as the sergeant could have easily walked over to the gate and gave a look around and noticed he wasn't there. So that means the sergeant walked to the training hall, didn't see his recruit/trooper/whatever, then checked the gate and he wasn't there.
A la: He's avoiding the schedule.

How does this interact with people who are actually virtual/barriered? I dunno. It sounds like a player trying to use an OOC construct ('I'm on Gate duty AKA I'm totally not online I swear') to explain an IC thing ('I wasn't at training')

Am I allowed to start using OOC constructs to justify  not being around in places? If I'm constantly barriered up and sneaking around outside as a bynner/private and my sergeant asks where I always am, when does it become an issue that I say 'gate duty'?

Interesting factor.

I haven't played for awhile. Twice now, I began the process of creating a character. And each time I abandoned it. Because the city is too different and new, the game changed a lot, and as I'm reading and grokking the lore In, there are a lot of shiny butterflies flying past. I'm still at it, a month past easy.


Newbies have it tough, man.

Quote from: X-D on October 31, 2021, 07:00:20 PM
Sure you can, We all do...But we are talking about new players I thought.

the thread has derailed far past that

Quote from: Veselka on October 31, 2021, 12:41:52 PM
I dunno. When I am playing a Byn Sergeant, one of my least favorite things about the role is getting contacted 2-3 times a day by a new Pc wanting to join.
...
The actual interview process is about 90% meaningless and a waste of time for the leadership PC.

I can understand that. The Byn is different from every other recruitable clan (that I know of) in terms of standards, in that they'll hire almost anyone. It's the one clan I can see the auto-join working in to some extent, given the IC context surrounding hiring Runners. I don't like it, but I see the argument that's being made for it.

I do like the idea of NPCs that can dish out information about the clan on request, but I don't think they should be instead of PC interaction. Even if many interviews are repetitive, they aren't all the same, or they don't have to be. And especially when it comes to new players, I think having an actual PC to gauge where they're at, answer questions, and help guide them with the expectations of the clan (or with coded things) is pretty essential. And clans aren't static - how things are and what is expected of everyone can change from leader to leader, or even under the same leader due to IC circumstances.

Solutions appropriate for the Byn are going to be different than solutions appropriate for just about any other clan for the most part. Allowing First Troopers to hire Runners would lessen the burden on Sergeants (if said Sergeants wanted to delegate to them), and for a clan like the Byn I think an NPC within the compound that can clan people and hand out an aba that Troopers could bring prospective Runners to would even work.

Your Sergeant PC would decide just how far they wanted to delegate interviewing and hiring Runners. They really can't be bothered? Let First Troopers, Mercenaries and Troopers do it all while they focus on schmoozing up contracts. Except that elf one. You know better than to let the elf do it.

Quote from: Maso on November 01, 2021, 02:26:24 PM
Feels like people are forgetting this is ultimately a roleplay game. The process of getting into the Byn (or any other clan), the quest for finding someone and having to ask around for them, the process of being interviewed, the process of getting a tour and being shown where you can keep your stuff etc - these are all opportunities for RP and scenes and potential for other things to happen.

Agree +1000

I think rather than automate away this kind of interaction for new players it would be better to give the opportunity for more PCs to be able to onboard them where appropriate, especially in the Byn. There's plenty of middle ground between the Sergeant PC has to do it all and automating the whole process.

Quote from: Iiyola on October 30, 2021, 01:41:01 PM
Its been very frustrating for him because its been extremely hard to find PC leaders for his PC to join their Clan.

Can we really really talk about this? I made a character not long ago. Couldn't get in the Byn. Stood by the gate.
Stored.
Let me pose this question...

Wtf can't staff animate their clan NPCs for recruiting? Why can't my breed go get the attention of some guard at the gate and get one of the 100s of sergeants to recruit me?

I just don't get why it HAS to be a PC.  Appointed staff should not let opportunities like that go.

Quote from: ShaLeah on November 01, 2021, 10:43:43 PM

Quote from: Iiyola on October 30, 2021, 01:41:01 PM
Its been very frustrating for him because its been extremely hard to find PC leaders for his PC to join their Clan.

Can we really really talk about this? I made a character not long ago. Couldn't get in the Byn. Stood by the gate.
Stored.
Let me pose this question...

Wtf can't staff animate their clan NPCs for recruiting? Why can't my breed go get the attention of some guard at the gate and get one of the 100s of sergeants to recruit me?

I just don't get why it HAS to be a PC.  Appointed staff should not let opportunities like that go.

Appointed Staff members also aren't around 24/7 and may have missed you/other PCs.

Thus, my suggestion to have an automated NPC Sergeant take your 300 coins, give you the rundown of the rules, give you an Aba and two sparring weapons you choose in the discuss script, order you to fall in, once you follow them they give you a tour and end up back outside the gates, and the NPC sergeant tells you to go to the mess hall and read the schedule on the board to see when training is.

Seriously, it's an NPC's job, not a PC. It isn't 'the first RP' some PCs have. As of now, some of the first RP they have is logging into the Gaj, and if they're lucky, walking one room west to an empty bar and wondering who the PCs are. If anything, what I am suggesting is offering a GUARANTEED RP experience, even if it is with an NPC.

It also reduces workload/stress on leadership positions, of which the T'zai Byn Seregant is one of the toughest next to Templars.

The Byn should be one of the clans that anyone can join for 300 coins. Whether or not you STAY on is up to you, how you follow the rules, how you play, if you're a magicker, if you're a criminal, and so on. That isn't a PRE-REQUISITE to joining. All you need is 300 coins and about 20 minutes of someone's time (A PC Leader). My vote is make that a NPC leader, and a PC leader when possible.

Quote from: Halaster on November 01, 2021, 04:06:06 PM

Quote from: Veselka on October 31, 2021, 03:38:12 AM
Give all leadership roles Who C. For the love of God.

The main issue with this is that some leaders have used it to punish players.  Like the sergeant types who c, sees that Nandor the Relentless is online.  A little while later when Nandor shows up and the sergeant gives him shit about not being there, Nandor can lie and say he was on gate duty (code for being logged out).  But the sergeant knows he was lying and gives him shit about it.

I have no idea how much that happened, but it happened.  And I'm not saying we shouldn't give it to more leadership, maybe we should.  Just giving a reason why there's been hesitation in the past.

I had who c on a Salarr Crew Leader no longer than a RL year ago. So it's been given to people, particularly tribals. I think this was an older argument that has been proven a bit out of date (No offense, Halaster!)

If a Leader abuses Who C, it can simply be taken away from them. It helps SO much to know if people are around to run a RPT or patrol on the fly, and generate fun for people.

Whatever anyone does, don't miss the ideas that Iiyola and others are posting here to actually change what is clearly a problem.

I am fine with Auto-Byn characters -- an added idea to this notion is that for a temporary amount of time, they should perhaps be flagged somehow to ensure both clan safety and player visibility.

That old timey diku "who -c" command might be handy for Byn sergeants wanting to be aware of sudden new-hires. If we can give some limited use of that command to finding complete newbs, maybe accounts with less than X hours total playtime, or maybe all new characters who are made by joining a clan from chargen, so that joining clans this way leads to less isolation as well as helping people to understand/trust/or be wary of hires brought in this way.

(wow, I missed a whole page of replies before posting, sorry. Looks like everyone's onto the who C thing. If staff are hesitant to give it away, then perhaps the modification above to just who -c some newbs would be good.)

All my Byn sarges have had who c...just saying.

Quote from: X-D on November 02, 2021, 12:48:56 AM
All my Byn sarges have had who c...just saying.

I had Who C as a leader on multiple city clans and was under the impression that was a standard move when last I played leaders.

Quote from: X-D on November 02, 2021, 12:48:56 AM
All my Byn sarges have had who c...just saying.

It really should be across the board that all leaders have Who C. If it's abused, it's taken away. Simple as simple can be.

Right now, it seems to depend on the Staffer/Admin as to who gets who c, and that makes it all the more frustrating.

Maybe staff just forgets to add it?

I mean, shit happens. I have had to ask for jobs before. And usually I get from staff "Oops...sorry, missed that." Job gets added and no harm no foul.

It is a standard add, yeah, from what I have found.

First Troopers don't get it though. I assume Corporals don't either.

I agree that most leaders should get who C, apart from Clans where being missing might be normal (*cough* Valuren, Guild, whatever tuluk has *cough*). It has helped me immensely on my noble, and I only had one clan mate. 

I think any role that has to send in weekly/bi weekly reports should get access to who-c, and maybe even a few extra.

Quote from: Jihelu on November 02, 2021, 11:31:38 AM
I think any role that has to send in weekly/bi weekly reports should get access to who-c, and maybe even a few extra.

I've been recruited into Byn by NPC twice and four times an NPC kicked me out.

Quote from: Dar on November 02, 2021, 08:31:31 PM
I've been recruited into Byn by NPC twice and four times an NPC kicked me out.

This is pretty standard, staff jump in to help where we can. We do our best to not leave people in limbo on stuff like this, if you're not enjoying the clan and want to depart for whatever reason. We'd rather you be on and playing rather than not playing and waiting to catch a Sergeant. You may wish up and nobody is there, in which case send in a request and we'll try to make it so. Staff, like players, aren't always available but we have a good enough spread that its usual seen and the word passed along.

Quote from: Aromit on November 02, 2021, 08:45:48 PM

Quote from: Dar on November 02, 2021, 08:31:31 PM
I've been recruited into Byn by NPC twice and four times an NPC kicked me out.

This is pretty standard, staff jump in to help where we can. We do our best to not leave people in limbo on stuff like this, if you're not enjoying the clan and want to depart for whatever reason. We'd rather you be on and playing rather than not playing and waiting to catch a Sergeant. You may wish up and nobody is there, in which case send in a request and we'll try to make it so. Staff, like players, aren't always available but we have a good enough spread that its usual seen and the word passed along.

Thank you so much for doing this, when you guys can, to help retain our precious juicy newbies. Also, thank you for replying to this thread to answer concerns like these.

I hate to jump aboard the Byn train, but maybe split the duties 50/50. Sergeants are still required to interview people, ask the right questions, make sure the PC understands the basic expectations.

Similar to Devotions, have an NPC whose job is, every morning at First Horn, walks around the compound giving "the tour" in a scripted manner. Do the interview, and tell the Runner to report for the next tour of the grounds in the morning. NPC walks around, shows where stuff is, explains how to get food from the cook, etc. Leave it up to the PC/Player to decide if they need the tour or not.

Some of this "automation" can really help out, so long as the NPCs don't get stuck.

I made the suggestion of an auto-enlist option offered in chargen rooms.
A npc who stands beside a doorway under a banner of their clan. Byn,
Kadius, Salarr, and Kurac. Maybe the militias too. One for each city's
starting room. Atrium too? Maybe the NPCs could give the warnings and
rules that are routinely given to the new recruits before the pc can actually
be recruited and then the player would have to "accept" before the transaction
is completed, and also answer basic questions about each clan. The Byn one
would also require the three small up front. It would just be an option, the
player could still type "enter arch" as usual and join up the regular way on
their own or not at all. The doors would lead directly to the corresponding
barracks/dormitories of the outfit. It's early and this is a little rushed, but
the gist is there.

The auto-enlist option being brought up doesn't address the actual problem though.

When Amos gets auto-enlisted into the Byn, then what? He wasn't able to get enlisted via a PC, because there are no PCs who play when he's playing.  That doesn't change when he gets his crew patch.  Except now he has access to gruel and water and a sparring dummy.  And no one to play with.

I'm not seeing how this helps new players at all.

I'm going to break IC secrecy somewhat by noting that (over?) half the Byn left the clan, not so recently. When the PCs die on a RPT or whatever: fine, they'll be back. A voluntary exodus? Much different, right there.

Quote from: Hestia on November 03, 2021, 10:19:50 AM
The auto-enlist option being brought up doesn't address the actual problem though.

When Amos gets auto-enlisted into the Byn, then what? He wasn't able to get enlisted via a PC, because there are no PCs who play when he's playing.  That doesn't change when he gets his crew patch.  Except now he has access to gruel and water and a sparring dummy.  And no one to play with.

I'm not seeing how this helps new players at all.

There are usually players that are around. They just aren't sergeants and can't recruit.

Whenever I've played in the Byn, there was no sergeant for the majority of my online time because I tend to play early in the week. You can still RP and mess around with the other runners and troopers. You don't need a sergeant for that, especially not if you're new.

Would it be possible for people to sign up as newbie helpers.

In the Byn, you'd get an echo. Lt. Copper contacts and psies,"Some peepsqueek is at the gates, show him around. NOW, BYNNER!"

And when a newbie is chargenning, in the list of clans, he'd have (N members online now. Or. Clan: Tek Harem. No Members online. Last member login 8056363 hours ago)

That'd be neat.

But as Nao said, there isn't an issue of 'Oh you're in the Byn, now what?!'...there are probably people still playing. Now you can go spar with them and do other clan stuff.

And if the Byn is entirely empty? Maybe turn off the NPC/Script that lets you auto join because that's sad and the clan should probably be looked at.

Quote from: Hestia on November 03, 2021, 10:19:50 AM
The auto-enlist option being brought up doesn't address the actual problem though.

When Amos gets auto-enlisted into the Byn, then what? He wasn't able to get enlisted via a PC, because there are no PCs who play when he's playing.  That doesn't change when he gets his crew patch.  Except now he has access to gruel and water and a sparring dummy.  And no one to play with.

I'm not seeing how this helps new players at all.

Access to water and food definitely will help new players, along with the fact that they can get used to the syntax, etc.

Add a board with active PC's or sergeants and you're golden.

One of my first PC's was a Jaxa Pah. I knew shit all about the game, but I entertained myself, learned how to find my way through the Rinth and often reported to Nyr, who played my NPC boss.

On top of that, if all new chars have readily access to the Byn on chargen, I think the Byn will be much fuller in general.

Quote from: Hestia on November 03, 2021, 10:19:50 AM
The auto-enlist option being brought up doesn't address the actual problem though.

When Amos gets auto-enlisted into the Byn, then what? He wasn't able to get enlisted via a PC, because there are no PCs who play when he's playing.  That doesn't change when he gets his crew patch.  Except now he has access to gruel and water and a sparring dummy.  And no one to play with.

I'm not seeing how this helps new players at all.

Ways it helps new players:

-You are assuming that because there is not a Sergeant PC around, there is 'no one' around in the Byn. I find that to be mostly not true. There are many times I've been in the Byn and only seen the Sergeant every few RL days, if that, because they are busy running contracts, getting contracts, and being a PC. They aren't always around to recruit people, or to lead drills. That's what Troopers and First Troopers are for.

-Leadership PCs are not always around. Even when they are around, they are around at the times that suit them (That may be peak, or off-peak, or some smattering in-between). Some PCs/Players play OPPOSITE of any/all leadership PCs of a given clan, including the T'zai Byn. However, this doesn't mean there aren't active players that share their timezone and are around when they would be recruited.

-The Onboarding I'm talking about (personally) isn't just auto-enlisting new player PC's into the T'zai Byn. It's part of an experience, involving a NPC with a discuss script (Of which has been recently revamped and is pretty robust!) that gives the following to a PC:

-Rundown of what the organization is
-Rundown of what would be expected of them
-Rundown of the Rules
-Rundown of how long they would be in
-Modified script that says who the active Sergeants are (You'll want to report in to Sergeant Soandso and Sergeant Dingle when you get a chance, they'll be overseeing your unit.)
-Do you want to join the T'zai Byn? On yes, they prompt them to give 300 coins and in return they get an aba and a patch. Randomize which patch it is to which active units there are.

After this, it opens up:
-What weapon will you spar with? Axe, sword, spear, or club? They say outloud which one.
Sergeant gives them the weapon.
Prompt leads to:
'Alright, fall in, I'll give you a tour of the compound.'

On the PC following them, they go into the compound, grant them clan access, and give the OOC about how to file a request, how to join the clan boards, and that this is a NPC not a PC. Find Sergeant Soandso and Dingle for PC Sergeants active in the game.

I see this as a huge benefit for new players.

Why?

Because the majority of new players log in for the first time to the Gaj, not knowing who a PC or NPC is, what the fuck is going on, why it's going on, who people are, what this game is...And they just close the client and never log in again.

This provides a streamlined experience for new players, gets them involved in what is ostensibly the most referred to 'newbie clan' in the game (even if X-D says it isn't a newbie clan, it's what EVERYONE recommends to new players). It sets them up for success as a PLAYER, while getting their PC into a clan and ready to get grabbed up for contracts, for training, and for PC to PC interaction.

New Players now, at best, get a 'Gaj Introduction'. Which can range from being outright ignored, to weird RP that isn't indicative of what ArmageddonMUD has to offer, or no PCs present at all, leaving them to wander around looking for any interaction.

With onboarding them automatically, you are quite literally pushing them into almost guaranteed interaction. The Byn is one of the most populated clans in the game, at any given time, with some very minor exceptions since its opening/reopening. Any time I've been mostly off-peak, I play in the Byn. I'm guaranteed to find 1-2 people who are also off-peak. I play on peak, I'm guaranteed to find 3-5 people at any given time, sometimes more depending on fluctuations.

I don't see a downside to doing this for new players. It's their first PC. The Byn is arguably the most 'Zalanthas' clan that ArmageddonMUD has to offer in experience. Let's get them into the shit.

I'm actually going to tangentially agree with something XD said. If you want a newbie clan, you'd be much better off designing it from scratch to be just that. The Byn may be used as a training ground for new players, but that's kind of a hack job if you really think about it. The Byn is designed as a Fighty clan, and that's what they do. They don't craft, they don't (usually) do much wilderness survival, they certainly aren't involved in criminal activity to any significant degree, but these are all major aspects of the game.  If you tried to use the Byn as the "new player" clan you'd have them missing out on what, by the class design, amounts to 3/4's of the game. The odds that a given new player would even have a character designed for play in the Byn is certainly less than 50/50.

If there's to be a new player clan, it should be made from the ground up with that in mind. You can design it so that it's actually suitable for most new players as opposed to a small subset.

I'd just like to say that I think some of you vets need to play a Bynner. The Byn changed not super long ago and units as they were oncd known barely exist. Sparring weapons are also not just handed out anymore.

Thanks for reading, try the Byn. It's got stuff.

In it's current state (or the state I last played in it in, which was last year sometime), the Byn is -not- where I'd suggest new players go.  Why?

As veterans, we focus on the ability to get good enough to survive safely.  However, the Byn's schedule and routine is one that is very restrictive and regimented; a new player is not looking for that kind of job in a game, unless we find a way to not just liven things up, but liven it up A LOT.  Not with just these nice little gatherings where people joke around, but with content that is new, exciting, and exposes them to that first feeling of Armageddon sweeping them up into things they don't know or understand but holy-shit-this-is-awesome-and-oh-no-oh-no-and-I-died-I-must-create-a-new-character.

Historically, while the Byn was often this regimented, there was enough world-events going on and external clans to provide a huge variety of content and intrigue for the mercenary type.  Historically, some players gravitate towards Byn-like clans because the combat code is cool enough to them that they don't mind relentless sparring.  However, also historically, we had a lot more availability of 'free-roam' clans where new players could join up, have a crew, but be free to explore the world inside and outside the city, make mistakes, and be exposed to things.  Hunting groups, noble guards, multi-faction crime, and multi-faction military.

I don't think most people trying out Armageddon will be thrilled by tight restrictions right off the bat.  So I agree with XD.  If you want a newbie clan that people can auto-join, start it from scratch, with much more variety available and much less restriction, but also with a natural state of 'moving on to something else' as time passes.

Better to icly hire, imo. Nice to know who is who ic.

That being said. Having inactive clan leaders sucks hard. If you don't have time ooc don't take a leader position.

Quote from: Inks on November 04, 2021, 03:14:19 PM
Better to icly hire, imo. Nice to know who is who ic.

That's why leaders have Who C

But really, lets be real here: I have yet to see the Byn refusing an applicant (in fact, Sergeants are nearly begging for new members) and therefore the "interviews" are a bit redundant.

"You want in?"
"Yes."
"You have 300 coins?"
"Yes"
"Here's your aba."

I've never had an interview be more than what was described, occasionally it seems they try to newbie vet to make sure I know how to walk down the street and where the compound is but once they figure out that I can breath they go 'alright heres your aba'.

But...I enjoy the generic joining tour.  :'(

Sigh. Byn. One of few clans I can go full Wacko and not be kicked out.

Once joined Byn, was immediately (before even entering the compound) brought on an escort trip to luirs. Got stung with skelle and spent the next two days trying to convince everyone my Sargeant is naked with weird mutant schlong and calling some random chick my Mom.

What clan can you join and be so awesomely weird without people going into gains/liabilities calculation?

Quote from: Inks on November 04, 2021, 07:21:38 PM
But...I enjoy the generic joining tour.  :'(

Joining tour doesnt need to be removed, but a NPC recruited could be available to recruit if no Sergeant PC is online. Doesnt need to be the end all, but an option.

Quote from: Hestia on November 03, 2021, 10:19:50 AM
The auto-enlist option being brought up doesn't address the actual problem though.

When Amos gets auto-enlisted into the Byn, then what? He wasn't able to get enlisted via a PC, because there are no PCs who play when he's playing.  That doesn't change when he gets his crew patch.  Except now he has access to gruel and water and a sparring dummy.  And no one to play with.

I'm not seeing how this helps new players at all.

The key thing is having them be directed to the clan forums and have the leader PCs notified that they joined.

Another option is to have a chargen option be: Would you like to join the Byn? Would you like to join Kurac? - whereafter the leaders/staff are notified. If there's no PCs generally around the staff could edit that part of the role app or whatever.

Speaking from my experience in Atonement, where I was a leader in a military clan that you could start as a recruit, private, or corporal-rank (New, 1 karma, 2 karma equivalents) in a clan, you would get a notification that -so and so- has logged into the game for the first time and be able to find/grab them. Incidentally also had a notify function, where you could oocly alert the clan you were online and so people would kind of go looking for RP.

Quote from: Bogre on November 07, 2021, 07:50:28 AM
Incidentally also had a notify function, where you could oocly alert the clan you were online and so people would kind of go looking for RP.

That would be an amazing option.

Quote from: Iiyola on November 07, 2021, 01:29:23 PM

Quote from: Bogre on November 07, 2021, 07:50:28 AM
Incidentally also had a notify function, where you could oocly alert the clan you were online and so people would kind of go looking for RP.

That would be an amazing option.

Quote from: Bogre on November 07, 2021, 07:50:28 AM
Speaking from my experience in Atonement, where I was a leader in a military clan that you could start as a recruit, private, or corporal-rank (New, 1 karma, 2 karma equivalents) in a clan, you would get a notification that -so and so- has logged into the game for the first time and be able to find/grab them. Incidentally also had a notify function, where you could oocly alert the clan you were online and so people would kind of go looking for RP.

The notify feature of Atonement and SoI was one of two things I loved most about those games. The second was their crafting system, but that's for another thread.

SOI crafting totally sucked balls. Right after 2 hand inventory and closing Mordor.

2 hand system was awful, agreed.