Very often I find myself playing a PC who ends up waiting for another player to log in to get something from them. For example right now my PC is waiting for another PC for something. There is another PC waiting on my PC and in turn another PC waiting on them. This causes a bottleneck in advancing plots and now we have several people in a state of stagnation. When we aren't logged in our character doesn't vanish, they are assumed to be doing virtual tasks. Not having matching playtimes is an OOC limitation and I propose an idea to help remove some of the limitations that the pesky RL puts up.
This can be done at a Nenyuk bank or with some new sort of NPC.
The NPC is here tending some shelves.
Give large.bag regular.man
The NPC says, "Who is that for?
tell npc Amos.tall (You must use at least 2 keywords, perhaps one being the true 'name' to help avoid mixups.)
The NPC says, "Alright, I'll hold it for them. That will be X coins when they pick it up."
Amos goes to the NPC and types list
#1 A large bag is waiting for you for 100 coins
Amos types buy #1
Amos can leave another bag in return for the PC (payment or whatever).
The NPC can check the packs like the gate guards do if needed.
Maybe this can be done better with a completely different method but I think that the idea holds true no matter what platform it might use.
Can't you delegate, use other PCs to do this?
This can be abused to store stuff indefinitely, though I guess time limits can be made.
I still think that better solutions to this is to involve other players.
Other PCs are always the preference but not always feasible. Over the years I've had enough situations end up putting the brakes on things that caused me to have this idea.
Quote from: Dar on August 14, 2016, 12:22:26 PM
Can't you delegate, use other PCs to do this?
This can be abused to store stuff indefinitely, though I guess time limits can be made.
I still think that better solutions to this is to involve other players.
This "solution" just moves the problem horizontally. Instead of waiting for players A and B to meet, the plot now can't advance until Players B and C meet. On average there won't be a time savings with that.
You'll get the biggest bang for your buck if you have one side of the equation available constantly. Personally, when I ran into this problem we used the bury code.
I agree this is a problem. Not sure if this is the right solution. Kudos for pitching the idea.
I think being able to receive way messages while offline would go a long way in helping leaders move plots forward.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 14, 2016, 01:57:22 PM
I think being able to receive way messages while offline would go a long way in helping leaders move plots forward.
Sort of an amazing idea here. Quick someone list some cons before I get way to excited for it.
Quote from: The Warshaper on August 14, 2016, 02:01:08 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 14, 2016, 01:57:22 PM
I think being able to receive way messages while offline would go a long way in helping leaders move plots forward.
Sort of an amazing idea here. Quick someone list some cons before I get way to excited for it.
Only cons I can think of are "This guy is killing me please kill him later". But I dunno a way around that.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 14, 2016, 01:57:22 PM
I think being able to receive way messages while offline would go a long way in helping leaders move plots forward.
OMG THIS!
Also would sort of hinder those awkward moments where you got righteous vengeance for a dead best friend or lover and it turns out they just had a change of schedule for a month. It's absolutely cringe-worthy the next time you see that PC and they're like, "So um, what happened to all our other friends?"
Other Cons:
*Merchants in GMH getting orders placed through them, turning it even more into a vending machine job.
Solution:
If you log out while barriered, you don't receive messages while offline.
TBH...I don't really like the Way idea. The ambiguity of 'is this person alive or just busy?' would be lost with offline messages, unless the Way worked differently which it doesn't. (You have to make contact with a person and then Psi them, so if they are dead, you won't be able to find their mind to send the message.) What I mean with working differently is 'psi <name> <message>', which just isn't how it works.
Instead, if you could leave messages for people, say Bartenders and Noble Gate Guards, you could still pass along messages and check messages in this fashion.
Why would leaving messages be an important step towards helping leaders and plots moving forward? Because simply put, a lot of plotting is waiting for timezones / playtimes to match up before you can move from step A to B, and when there is lots of back and forth on each step, you end up spending a month just getting a plot off the ground. Being able to leave a message along the lines of "This all sounds good, but these are my modifications/requests, you can go forward with it after that" would just kick things into motion. Waiting for that 'OK, Go for it' message for a week can be a buzzkill for a plot.
It could also help leaders by reducing pedantic Way messages and 'catch up' that you do sometimes for 20-30 minutes logging in. If people could/would leave messages with gate guards/bartenders/whatever, then you could get the gist of it and not need to have a way conversation. Imagine if a list of potential Runners gave their name at the Byn Gates, so the Sergeant could follow up with them at their leisure/when it suited them. I dunno, just riffing.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 14, 2016, 02:42:35 PM
TBH...I don't really like the Way idea. The ambiguity of 'is this person alive or just busy?' would be lost with offline messages, unless the Way worked differently which it doesn't. (You have to make contact with a person and then Psi them, so if they are dead, you won't be able to find their mind to send the message.) What I mean with working differently is 'psi <name> <message>', which just isn't how it works.
Instead, if you could leave messages for people, say Bartenders and Noble Gate Guards, you could still pass along messages and check messages in this fashion.
Why would leaving messages be an important step towards helping leaders and plots moving forward? Because simply put, a lot of plotting is waiting for timezones / playtimes to match up before you can move from step A to B, and when there is lots of back and forth on each step, you end up spending a month just getting a plot off the ground. Being able to leave a message along the lines of "This all sounds good, but these are my modifications/requests, you can go forward with it after that" would just kick things into motion. Waiting for that 'OK, Go for it' message for a week can be a buzzkill for a plot.
It could also help leaders by reducing pedantic Way messages and 'catch up' that you do sometimes for 20-30 minutes logging in. If people could/would leave messages with gate guards/bartenders/whatever, then you could get the gist of it and not need to have a way conversation. Imagine if a list of potential Runners gave their name at the Byn Gates, so the Sergeant could follow up with them at their leisure/when it suited them. I dunno, just riffing.
Actually, that's better, and could actually make the beginnings of a Merchant House making use of R/W Cavilish and taking coins on each side of the exchange.
Excepting the moderately-sized coin pouch, the obese, bearded man says, in pompous accented sirihish, "Why yes, Amos, there /is/ a message for you."
After clearing his throat, and pulling a small paper out of a filing box, the obese bearded man says, iin pompous-accented sirihish, "Ah, here we go. Derpina says she's leaving you for Kadius's First Hunter, and she never wants to see your ugly face again."
When you do this, you cut out any and all opportunity for anyone to learn of your plans and details. Just because you think they may be insignificant, does not mean they are insignificant to the third parties and their employers. Any and all communication should be, at minimum, mirrored in-game, online.
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Quote from: Samoa on August 14, 2016, 03:44:16 PM
When you do this, you cut out any and all opportunity for anyone to learn of your plans and details. Just because you think they may be insignificant, does not mean they are insignificant to the third parties and their employers. Any and all communication should be, at minimum, mirrored in-game, online.
I've gotta agree with this sentiment. I've had plenty of times, like OP, where you need to get package A to person P, but you and P never overlap (or rarely). So I can sympathize.
But I'm also of the view that we should open ourselves up to the risk involved in letting other PCs into our plots.
So, suppose you need to deliver a knot of spice to Lord Puffleknees and you can't ever catch Lord Puffleknees on-line. I would rather encourage people to open themselves up to the risk of hiring some random nobody to deliver the spice -- or, heck, hire the T'zai Byn.
If the in-between you hire dies and Lord Puffleknees gets pissed: new plot!
If the in-between steals the spice: new plot!
If the in-between gets caught with the spice: new plot!
True, those are good points. Risk minimization via message delivery is indeed a potential problem. But one could say that, with the exception of Mindworms, passing messages through the Way is 100% fault proof as well. I would think having the messages delivered in a remote spot, as someone above said could mean staking out these messenger spots to overhear rumors/gossip. It would be given in a public place (Like the bar) so the Bartender would just say it out loud, not message you over the Way. If it was something sensitive, maybe it would just be 'Soandso said to look for them, they had something important to talk about'. Or they might talk in code, 'Soandso said meet them by the tree that has birds that squeak, not squawk.'
The package delivery, I agree, would be a little too much risk aversion. But passing messages, I don't agree. I think with the prevalence of the Unseen Way, messages can be delivered (when convenient) with 100% secrecy. So providing a means for messages to be delivered via say/tell rather than the way just opens up more opportunities for plotting, not less.
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Quote from: Molten Heart on August 14, 2016, 06:38:13 PM
I think a coded delivery system would enhance the game and player interaction more than it'd take away. Merchant house merchants would actually do much more business this way if they could ensure delivery without having to line up play times.
There are better things to do than wait around for others in game, especially if they may never be found. The accumulated benefits of those things players did will greatly outweigh the loss of interaction of finding some other PC to help make the connection.
I tend to agree. Actually I didn't think about 'What if Merchants could fill orders and people could just pick them up/buy them from an NPC?'
Hire a good assistant, or two if you need two.
Not only is this not needed, I think it would be terrible for the game.
I agree with Desertman. This would not be long-term beneficial; I'm afraid I can't provide refutation to some of the counterpoints for various reasons, but this is what aides and assistants and junior merchants are for.
Fair enough. Good debates (and reaching conclusions that are beneficial to both sides) usually requires some effort though. I'm interested to hear why, rather than just cuz.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 14, 2016, 08:47:27 PM
Fair enough. Good debates (and reaching conclusions that are beneficial to both sides) usually requires some effort though. I'm interested to hear why, rather than just cuz.
While I like the idea, I can kind of see how it'd unbalance things into making PCs seem like an even more disposable commodity than they already are, which is pretty damn disposable. It is a fair counterpoint.
Fair enough. Though I fail to see what makes a Merchant more of a disposable commodity -- Treating them like a vending machine, or allowing them to turn the ordering/selling of items into an actual vending machine.
Honestly, when I played an Agent in Kurac, I didn't have to do much ordering/selling, but I still got roped into it when Merchants weren't around. I was still Trade Ops, after all. And it was annoying as fuck. The better part of the role was the politicking and behind the scenes shit, and generally just being a Kuraci.
So I can only feel worse for people who have to craft/do orders for real, and probably for the same group of people that want to play dress up.
In my experience, if people are connected enough (usually in the same clan), they're able to use their sub forums or PMs to transmit simple messages such as, "Soandso needs to speak with you", or "suchandsuch was left in your footlocker". So I can envision an NPC giving out stock messages like that. But no more. Anything custom, or complicated, and you really should involve other PCs to do your bidding.
Quote from: Dar on August 14, 2016, 08:58:52 PM
In my experience, if people are connected enough (usually in the same clan), they're able to use their sub forums or PMs to transmit simple messages such as, "Soandso needs to speak with you", or "suchandsuch was left in your footlocker". So I can envision an NPC giving out stock messages like that. But no more. Anything custom, or complicated, and you really should involve other PCs to do your bidding.
True. What about tribes, or non-clans though? PMs suffice, but it begins to feel like a meta-game there as well.
As for finding gmh, have we put merchant trainee ranks too far up the chain? Personally I think it should be a first level rank if people want to do that. Don't give them access to the warehouses, but let them sell. A couple gmh atm have very few sellers, and they cant cover a large range of playtimes, and even then, they need to not just be vending machines and actually have some fun doing other stuff too.
I'm kind of on board with the "leave a message with someone at a 'messaging post' location" idea, only if messages are passed via whisper from the NPC on a script. That way, people CAN hang out in the message post and listen in on who is looking for who, and why. Its FAR better than the 100% imperviousness of mindworms.
Quote from: Riev on August 14, 2016, 09:24:48 PM
I'm kind of on board with the "leave a message with someone at a 'messaging post' location" idea, only if messages are passed via whisper from the NPC on a script. That way, people CAN hang out in the message post and listen in on who is looking for who, and why. Its FAR better than the 100% imperviousness of mindworms.
the message room [NESW]
A message-delivering npc
*a strange shadow is here, idling*
*a strange shadow is here, idling*
*a strange shadow is here, idling*
*a strange shadow is here, idling*
*a strange shadow is here, idling*
*a strange shadow is here, idling*
*a strange shadow is here, idling*
Honestly, I'd be all for that. It didn't stop other high-karma PCs from doing similar things in game. I'd assume most of the messages left would be cryptic anyways, or information about GMH orders? Who knows! Better than shadowing into an apartment and overhearing a whisper and then they log out.
I would rather see this facilitated via PCs hiring other PCs to deliver messages for them.
Failing that I would rather see this done via literacy.
Failing that, I would rather not see this.
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 09:07:35 AM
stuff
I actually really like the idea. My playtimes prevent me from being on from about 3-9pm server time damn near any day so if I want to get in touch with someone who only plays during "peak times" I'm pretty screwed.
I'm all for more literacy, d-man. Even if it's something you can only have once you're lifesworn to one of the big boy houses/families in game to get. Having played a different RPI with it and gotten to come back across writings one pc of mine had left over a RL year later and having them factor into evidence of a plot regarding murder most foul: hell yes, literacy plz.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 09:42:17 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 09:07:35 AM
stuff
I actually really like the idea. My playtimes prevent me from being on from about 3-9pm server time damn near any day so if I want to get in touch with someone who only plays during "peak times" I'm pretty screwed.
I'm all for more literacy, d-man. Even if it's something you can only have once you're lifesworn to one of the big boy houses/families in game to get. Having played a different RPI with it and gotten to come back across writings one pc of mine had left over a RL year later and having them factor into evidence of a plot regarding murder most foul: hell yes, literacy plz.
What prevents you from hiring someone currently to act as your peak time messenger?
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 09:49:56 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 09:42:17 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 09:07:35 AM
stuff
I actually really like the idea. My playtimes prevent me from being on from about 3-9pm server time damn near any day so if I want to get in touch with someone who only plays during "peak times" I'm pretty screwed.
I'm all for more literacy, d-man. Even if it's something you can only have once you're lifesworn to one of the big boy houses/families in game to get. Having played a different RPI with it and gotten to come back across writings one pc of mine had left over a RL year later and having them factor into evidence of a plot regarding murder most foul: hell yes, literacy plz.
What prevents you from hiring someone currently to act as your peak time messenger?
Being one of any number of clan members who receive no pay. Being one of any number of pcs with no viable money making skills and the restriction of not leaving the city.
For the pcs with literally no income: what are you supposed to be hiring these people with?
And, just allow me to interject here, this is not an issue specific to the current character I have. This is a set of circumstances that should be taken into account given that 1/2 the starting positions with gmhs, all byn starting positions, come with this opening salary: 0 coins, but food and shelter.
What part of that do you pay messengers with?
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 10:01:39 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 09:49:56 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 09:42:17 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 09:07:35 AM
stuff
I actually really like the idea. My playtimes prevent me from being on from about 3-9pm server time damn near any day so if I want to get in touch with someone who only plays during "peak times" I'm pretty screwed.
I'm all for more literacy, d-man. Even if it's something you can only have once you're lifesworn to one of the big boy houses/families in game to get. Having played a different RPI with it and gotten to come back across writings one pc of mine had left over a RL year later and having them factor into evidence of a plot regarding murder most foul: hell yes, literacy plz.
What prevents you from hiring someone currently to act as your peak time messenger?
Being one of any number of clan members who receive no pay. Being one of any number of pcs with no viable money making skills and the restriction of not leaving the city.
For the pcs with literally no income: what are you supposed to be hiring these people with?
And, just allow me to interject here, this is not an issue specific to the current character I have. This is a set of circumstances that should be taken into account given that 1/2 the starting positions with gmhs, all byn starting positions, come with this opening salary: 0 coins, but food and shelter.
What part of that do you pay messengers with?
If money is your issue how are you going to be able to pay the messenger NPC? You already don't have money to pay a PC. Is this NPC ran by a Zalanthan charity?
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 10:01:39 AM
And, just allow me to interject here, this is not an issue specific to the current character I have.
I am all for anything that increases the need to communicate with players and PCs outside of your current norm. I'm not a huge fan of implementing methods that remove the need to talk to other people.
However, if I need to talk to someone (a superior, say) in my OWN CLAN... and I don't mesh playtimes with them, what do I do? Hire a messenger? That seems foolish. Post on the internal GDB? Send them a PM? Communicate in methods outside of the game?
Does my characters plotline have to skew off because I am suddenly unable to communicate with people I technically should have access to every day?
I saw that, because the issue has been brought up before, and that is the playerbase's answer. Change clans. That shouldn't be the option because I cannot communicate with a single person.
The more I read this thread, the more I like the idea of an NPC messenger.
I think it's something Reiloth said up above, namely, that often the messages are the sorts of things you want to read, sort, then get on with the RP, e.g., "Bob wants to contact you about the order", "Suzy died to scrab.", "Sam says it doesn't fit".
I've played (once upon a time when I had really high playtimes) the messenger PC, and, yeah, you spend about five minutes when your Leader logs in just giving them reports. It isn't really that interesting in terms of RP. What's more interesting is the conversation had from one or two items out of that report.
Here are some more pros:
o It would allow PCs to accomplish things in a realistic manner -- no more waiting sometimes IG years to get ahold of someone.
o It would prevent that weird thing that happens to off-peak players: something big happens in your unit/clan, but you didn't manage to log into peak to find out... for an entire RL month. So you find out from enemy clan that your boss died in a public execution a year ago, or whatever.
o In general, the spread of information is the spread of plots: you keep plots alive by talking about them. If you can't connect with your boss to tell them that so-and-so is planning something big, then that's a plot that just died.
The cons, however, are:
o Some plots might become more insular. There's a big temptation to 'keep it simple' when playing a villain, for the more people that know are the more people that might betray you. Hence, the urge to use the way, or whisper, or never leave your castle, and so on. This would encourage that urge to the insular.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 10:26:21 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 10:01:39 AM
And, just allow me to interject here, this is not an issue specific to the current character I have.
Then consider the question a universal "you" not related to your current character. You proposed the issue is these characters don't have money.
So the question still stands.
Quote from: Riev on August 18, 2016, 10:29:39 AM
I am all for anything that increases the need to communicate with players and PCs outside of your current norm. I'm not a huge fan of implementing methods that remove the need to talk to other people.
However, if I need to talk to someone (a superior, say) in my OWN CLAN... and I don't mesh playtimes with them, what do I do? Hire a messenger? That seems foolish. Post on the internal GDB? Send them a PM? Communicate in methods outside of the game?
Does my characters plotline have to skew off because I am suddenly unable to communicate with people I technically should have access to every day?
I saw that, because the issue has been brought up before, and that is the playerbase's answer. Change clans. That shouldn't be the option because I cannot communicate with a single person.
Send a standard message on your clan boards that you need to arrange a time to meet up with whoever you are trying to meet up with. I've seen it done many times. Works great.
If the issue is that you two are forever and without exception bound to never be able to see each other in the game no matter what for eternity....then staff can probably help you.
However, I would think that's the extremely rare exception to the point of absurdity and might venture to say it's not even a real issue.
Quote from: nauta on August 18, 2016, 10:37:55 AM
The more I read this thread, the more I like the idea of an NPC messenger.
I think it's something Reiloth said up above, namely, that often the messages are the sorts of things you want to read, sort, then get on with the RP, e.g., "Bob wants to contact you about the order", "Suzy died to scrab.", "Sam says it doesn't fit".
I've played (once upon a time when I had really high playtimes) the messenger PC, and, yeah, you spend about five minutes when your Leader logs in just giving them reports. It isn't really that interesting in terms of RP. What's more interesting is the conversation had from one or two items out of that report.
Here are some more pros:
o It would allow PCs to accomplish things in a realistic manner -- no more waiting sometimes IG years to get ahold of someone.
o It would prevent that weird thing that happens to off-peak players: something big happens in your unit/clan, but you didn't manage to log into peak to find out... for an entire RL month. So you find out from enemy clan that your boss died in a public execution a year ago, or whatever.
o In general, the spread of information is the spread of plots: you keep plots alive by talking about them. If you can't connect with your boss to tell them that so-and-so is planning something big, then that's a plot that just died.
The cons, however, are:
o Some plots might become more insular. There's a big temptation to 'keep it simple' when playing a villain, for the more people that know are the more people that might betray you. Hence, the urge to use the way, or whisper, or never leave your castle, and so on. This would encourage that urge to the insular.
If you give me and MOST players the option to simply use an instant messenger text message version of email in the game (an NPC messenger) instead of actually look for who I'm trying to give my message to, I am going to go the easy route almost every time.
I'm not going to do it because I want to ruin the game or because I don't want to RP.
I'm going to do it because it's instant gratification with zero risk designed to ensure my goal is completed with the least amount of effort one could possibly imagine.
I agree messengers would be useful in the rare exceptions where people simply CAN'T find each other for IC years.....but it won't be used only for that.....it will be used for almost everything.....because that's how players in games work.
What if it were a construct only usable with staff intervention?
Quote from: Chettaman on August 18, 2016, 12:05:29 PM
What if it were a construct only usable with staff intervention?
I wouldn't even be opposed to it if it were an NPC only Houses had access to within the walls of their own compounds.
That makes perfect sense to me and would only serve to pass on messages IC'ly that people generally use their clan GDB's for anyhow.
If anything it takes it off of the clan GDB's and puts it actually IN THE GAME, which I can't be upset about.
I'm kind of curious what people think/feel/hemote when they use barrier.... especially when you 'train' barrier.
Quote from: nauta on August 18, 2016, 01:43:43 PM
I'm kind of curious what people think/feel/hemote when they use barrier.... especially when you 'train' barrier.
I usually just roleplay that my PC feels like having some true "alone time", but I am also curious to see what other people do here.
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Quote from: Molten Heart on August 18, 2016, 01:52:31 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 10:21:27 AM
If money is your issue how are you going to be able to pay the messenger NPC? You already don't have money to pay a PC. Is this NPC ran by a Zalanthan charity?
In the case of minions reporting to a boss type, like a templar, or noble (or at least someone affluent enough others expect them to have money) a messenger NPC could be made to have the receiving party pay, in whole or even in part.
In cases of minions reporting to a boss type it seems like we would be better served to just have the messenger NPC in the compound to being with. Then no payment is required since that NPC is an employee of said organization and would be paid virtually.
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on August 18, 2016, 01:52:31 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 10:21:27 AM
If money is your issue how are you going to be able to pay the messenger NPC? You already don't have money to pay a PC. Is this NPC ran by a Zalanthan charity?
In the case of minions reporting to a boss type, like a templar, or noble (or at least someone affluent enough others expect them to have money) a messenger NPC could be made to have the receiving party pay, in whole or even in part.
In cases of minions reporting to a boss type it seems like we would be better served to just have the messenger NPC in the compound to being with. Then no payment is required since that NPC is an employee of said organization and would be paid virtually.
If you are clanned already, then the NPC wouldn't serve much of a function, since clannies can PM each other or post a quick rumor.
I see the usefulness being for people without a clan, or for clan-unclanned interactions.
Quote from: nauta on August 18, 2016, 02:08:21 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on August 18, 2016, 01:52:31 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 10:21:27 AM
If money is your issue how are you going to be able to pay the messenger NPC? You already don't have money to pay a PC. Is this NPC ran by a Zalanthan charity?
In the case of minions reporting to a boss type, like a templar, or noble (or at least someone affluent enough others expect them to have money) a messenger NPC could be made to have the receiving party pay, in whole or even in part.
In cases of minions reporting to a boss type it seems like we would be better served to just have the messenger NPC in the compound to being with. Then no payment is required since that NPC is an employee of said organization and would be paid virtually.
If you are clanned already, then the NPC wouldn't serve much of a function, since clannies can PM each other or post a quick rumor.
I see the usefulness being for people without a clan, or for clan-unclanned interactions.
If you give me and MOST players the option to simply use an instant messenger text message version of email in the game (an NPC messenger) instead of actually look for who I'm trying to give my message to (or hire another PC to act as my aide/messenger), I am going to go the easy route almost every time.
I'm not going to do it because I want to ruin the game or because I don't want to RP.
I'm going to do it because it's instant gratification with zero risk designed to ensure my goal is completed with the least amount of effort one could possibly imagine.
I agree messengers would be useful in the rare exceptions where people simply CAN'T find each other for IC years.....but it won't be used only for that.....it will be used for almost everything.....because that's how players in games work.
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 01:39:07 PM
I wouldn't even be opposed to it if it were an NPC only Houses had access to within the walls of their own compounds.
That makes perfect sense to me and would only serve to pass on messages IC'ly that people generally use their clan GDB's for anyhow.
If anything it takes it off of the clan GDB's and puts it actually IN THE GAME, which I can't be upset about.
Yeah, I'm for this. Anything that takes something from OOC usefulness, to IC usefulness, and builds RP potential and increases immersion, I'm all for.
.
Quote from: Raptor_Dan on August 18, 2016, 02:13:57 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 01:39:07 PM
I wouldn't even be opposed to it if it were an NPC only Houses had access to within the walls of their own compounds.
That makes perfect sense to me and would only serve to pass on messages IC'ly that people generally use their clan GDB's for anyhow.
If anything it takes it off of the clan GDB's and puts it actually IN THE GAME, which I can't be upset about.
Yeah, I'm for this. Anything that takes something from OOC usefulness, to IC usefulness, and builds RP potential and increases immersion, I'm all for.
Yeah in my opinion the clan boards are being used a bit too much to relay things "easily" that should instead be relayed in the game.
I was in a clan recently and I won't point fingers or name names but I just kept thinking, "Why is this being put in the clan boards as a rumor/passing word instead of this player letting people find this out in the game if they have a reason to know it?".
If nothing else I think staff needs to buckle down on that.
I'm fine with, "Word gets around that something might be happening pretty soon on this day and if you want to know what it is you should show up for details.".
What I'm not fine with is, "Hey, everyone in the clan knows this specific thing about who/what/how/when/why and now your PC knows that even if it's a miniscule minute thing like what objects go in which chest in a room.".
No.
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 10:49:44 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 10:26:21 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 10:01:39 AM
And, just allow me to interject here, this is not an issue specific to the current character I have.
Then consider the question a universal "you" not related to your current character. You proposed the issue is these characters don't have money.
So the question still stands.
no. I proposed that was "a reason". not "the reason you can't". fact of the matter is, while some pcs manage to get insanely rich, most of mine never get anywhere near that. be damned if they piss away money on a messenger for anything. I will just literally completely let the matter go unresolved forever if it comes to it. because that sounds like a lot of unnecessary bullshit and work for something that 99% of the time I OOCly don't give enough of a fuck about to care. given the many people who obviously feel differently, and the fact that you seemed to think there was some personal angle which there wasn't, involved in it all, I was trying to speculate from their perspective.
yep, that's me. if you ask me to get in touch with someone and I never do? it's because they weren't around when I was for me to pester. or I forgot. or I didn't care. I'm pretty sure it mattered more to my character than it does to me the player, and probably they would have put more effort into making it happen somewhere but me as a player... nope, sorry. I spent 5 RL days trying to find you. even if I do find you at some point, it's clearly going to be like talking into a black hole of forever wait times or hoping that people who are going to paraphrase what I said into something hopelessly and pointlessly different deliver an amount of specifics that I would not and could not reasonably expect them to. so I just don't bother with it.
sorry if you put me in that position or are on the other end. I'm a flake like that. I can tell you that if the npc were an option that might change, because I wouldn't have to dance around and jump through hoops to "get shit done" that was as simple as a brief exchange. but until it does... *shruggle*
Quote from: Molten Heart on August 18, 2016, 02:16:18 PM
What about the delivery service talked about by the OP? A messenger service seems cool, even if people are afraid of the way other people would use it, but a delivery service seems very useful.
Seems like a pretty great business someone should start IC'ly.
It would require them to develop well known clout as being honest and trustworthy that they could then shift and mold into a business where people basically trust them by reputation to handle their goods/items/messages for them.
I would hate to see this great opportunity robbed away from someone (maybe me one day actually, seems like fun) by easy-mode-code implementation.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 02:18:52 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 18, 2016, 10:49:44 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 10:26:21 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 10:01:39 AM
And, just allow me to interject here, this is not an issue specific to the current character I have.
Then consider the question a universal "you" not related to your current character. You proposed the issue is these characters don't have money.
So the question still stands.
no. I proposed that was "a reason". not "the reason you can't". fact of the matter is, while some pcs manage to get insanely rich, most of mine never get anywhere near that. be damned if they piss away money on a messenger for anything. I will just literally completely let the matter go unresolved forever if it comes to it. because that sounds like a lot of unnecessary bullshit and work for something that 99% of the time I OOCly don't give enough of a fuck about to care. given the many people who obviously feel differently, and the fact that you seemed to think there was some personal angle which there wasn't, involved in it all, I was trying to speculate from their perspective.
yep, that's me. if you ask me to get in touch with someone and I never do? it's because they weren't around when I was for me to pester. or I forgot. or I didn't care. I'm pretty sure it mattered more to my character than it does to me the player, and probably they would have put more effort into making it happen somewhere but me as a player... nope, sorry. I spent 5 RL days trying to find you. even if I do find you at some point, it's clearly going to be like talking into a black hole of forever wait times or hoping that people who are going to paraphrase what I said into something hopelessly and pointlessly different deliver an amount of specifics that I would not and could not reasonably expect them to. so I just don't bother with it.
sorry if you put me in that position or are on the other end. I'm a flake like that. I can tell you that if the npc were an option that might change, because I wouldn't have to dance around and jump through hoops to "get shit done" that was as simple as a brief exchange. but until it does... *shruggle*
Eh, I'm not sure what you are on about exactly.
I've hired a lot of messengers in the game and it works out great and leads to interesting things.
I wasn't accusing you of being a bad messenger or whatever it is I think you are saying here.....you gave a reason, I asked you to give further details, I assumed your reason was from personal experience, so I asked you for further clarification. It wasn't from personal experience....fine....ok I guess.
no I wasn't assuming you were implying or saying anything about me being a bad messenger.
I was saying basically... just exactly what was said. if I thought you were saying that and felt it was important to touch on or refute somehow I would've spelled that part out, too. I try and be clear about what I'm supposing is said by stating it back, like the part where I said it seemed like you thought there was something personal in there involved as reasons go, so... if it's not included in a phrased bit that way, I'm responding to actual stuff typed and not something implied/inferred, but outright stated.
eh. basically: if I had to hire a pc to stable a mount, I wouldn't have a mount. since I can check one in and out of the stables reliably and for less than a skin of water with instant gratification, I have a mount. if an npc allowed passing messages with people who weren't around when I was to be as easy and cheap as stabling a mount, I might use them, it depends on implementation. but the time/sid/trust/etc needed for dealing with pc messengers makes it just as big a hassle as pushing my playtimes for RL days on end to actually find the person - and option 2 of those, doesn't require pissing money away which my pcs often don't have as much of as they'd like anyhow. if that makes more sense and seems to more concisely address your point/question?
.
Quote from: Molten Heart on August 18, 2016, 02:30:37 PM
Developing one's own messenger service or delivery service that one can come to trust and rely on seems like a lot of work. I'd rather spend my time working on other plots I enjoyed being engaged with, ones that others that are working with me, also enjoy where they don't spend a lot of time waiting around for other people.
It's not for everyone but I could have a lot of fun with it. I would hire third parties as outriders to pass messages and goods over distances for me for clients.
I would eventually probably get access to some very interesting information people started trusting me with.
I would enjoy connecting the dots between cryptic message A, and B, and C from multiple sources all using my services to get the big picture.
Damn. Now I want to do this. It sounds awesome.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 18, 2016, 02:29:15 PM
if an npc allowed passing messages with people who weren't around when I was to be as easy and cheap as stabling a mount, I might use them, it depends on implementation. but the time/sid/trust/etc needed for dealing with pc messengers makes it just as big a hassle as pushing my playtimes for RL days on end to actually find the person - and option 2 of those, doesn't require pissing money away which my pcs often don't have as much of as they'd like anyhow. if that makes more sense and seems to more concisely address your point/question?
Finding PC's/employees you can trust and are dependable can be a hassle I agree.
Then again, it sounds like part of the game that shouldn't go away.
I understand some people not liking that part, but I like it.
.
Sooooo....
Can someone explain to me exactly how this is different from the clan bulletin boards we already have in the game? And why that difference is a good thing?
Other than the fact that nobody ever uses the clan bulletins, that is.
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 18, 2016, 02:56:30 PM
Sooooo....
Can someone explain to me exactly how this is different from the clan bulletin boards we already have in the game? And why that difference is a good thing?
Other than the fact that nobody ever uses the clan bulletins, that is.
First thought: Holy shit it's Tisiphone.
Second thought: that's what I've been wondering for this entire thread.
I feel like I've been alone in hating the transition from clan boards to GDB boards - I really wish that any clan communication had to be accessed in-game.
That includes clan documentation to a certain degree, such as rules and schedules and a "who's who".
(also, I hate check-in posts. I don't play so y'all can know who I am out of character. I play so that y'all can interact with my character. Not me.)
Quote from: Delirium on August 18, 2016, 03:48:42 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 18, 2016, 02:56:30 PM
Sooooo....
Can someone explain to me exactly how this is different from the clan bulletin boards we already have in the game? And why that difference is a good thing?
Other than the fact that nobody ever uses the clan bulletins, that is.
First thought: Holy shit it's Tisiphone.
Second thought: that's what I've been wondering for this entire thread.
I feel like I've been alone in hating the transition from clan boards to GDB boards - I really wish that any clan communication had to be accessed in-game.
That includes clan documentation to a certain degree, such as rules and schedules and a "who's who".
(also, I hate check-in posts. I don't play so y'all can know who I am out of character. I play so that y'all can interact with my character. Not me.)
You're not alone. I hate the clan GDB boards with a passion, and lament the loss of the clan bulletin boards in-compound. What's the point of even sneaking into an enemy compound to learn secrets? You can't. You can't even find out that someone got murdered in there two days before your arrival. Frankly, I don't even like the GDB that much, either. If we could just move back to Hypernews without it lagging the game every time someone refreshed...
About clan boards in game: There are a few reasons we don't use them more widely, and have moved to replace some of that communication on the GDB.
The main reason is that clan boards are hard-coded into the game and we can't just add new ones easily, like we can with most other objects. So newer clans, including player clans, don't de facto have boards for this reason.
A secondary reason is that clan boards require direct staff maintenance, for things like posting rules and whatnot (and I think we can all agree that the text editor is the worst), and then ongoing pruning of old posts, as well as responding to players' inevitable complaints about what is posted on the boards by others.
Third, and much more minor, clan boards are infallible. They say exactly what the poster wanted them to say, they are difficult to spy on for outsiders, and their messages don't expire unless staff removes them. They can't be bribed or manipulated or accidentally overheard.
I think a solution for passing messages in game would be really neat. We don't currently have anything even approaching a good method for doing that.
It'd be super cool to combine the two -- as with BIOGRAPHY. That is, entering an entry into the thread 'Rumours' (or whatever it is for your clan) would get slurped into the database of a certain NPC inside the clan (or the rumour board itself inside the clan) -- and vice versa.
I think, however, an NPC messenger is most useful for delivering messages between clans or between independents or from clan to independent. I think in every clan I've been in, the leader has said something like: just PM me if you want me to log in! So you can just PM your leader (usually) and deliver the message and they can log out. But between clans or clan-independent interactions have no way of doing this.
So, perhaps the messenger could be something that takes no content, but just schedules:
tell NPC delivermessage Bob
The NPC says, "Ok, I'll let Bob know ya lookin' for him."
Then Bob logs in and does:
tell NPC messages
The NPC says, "Well, Suzy was lookin' for you last Detal in the Lord's Age of Whatevs."
The NPC says, "Well, Shivs was lookin' for you last Yochem in the Lord's Age of Whatevs."
What are you all talking about? I just AIM people when I have a concern. This is an effort to bring what would otherwise be OOC communication back into IC, and I, for one, think that would be of great benefit.
Quote from: nauta on August 18, 2016, 04:45:28 PM
It'd be super cool to combine the two -- as with BIOGRAPHY. That is, entering an entry into the thread 'Rumours' (or whatever it is for your clan) would get slurped into the database of a certain NPC inside the clan (or the rumour board itself inside the clan) -- and vice versa.
I think, however, an NPC messenger is most useful for delivering messages between clans or between independents or from clan to independent. I think in every clan I've been in, the leader has said something like: just PM me if you want me to log in! So you can just PM your leader (usually) and deliver the message and they can log out. But between clans or clan-independent interactions have no way of doing this.
So, perhaps the messenger could be something that takes no content, but just schedules:
tell NPC delivermessage Bob
The NPC says, "Ok, I'll let Bob know ya lookin' for him."
Then Bob logs in and does:
tell NPC messages
The NPC says, "Well, Suzy was lookin' for you last Detal in the Lord's Age of Whatevs."
The NPC says, "Well, Shivs was lookin' for you last Yochem in the Lord's Age of Whatevs."
This seems borderline pedantic though. A Noble,for instance, would log in and see like 80 messages for 'Soandso is looking for you'. At the end of the day it isn't about knowing someone is looking for you -- I already have enough guilt for not logging in 24/7 -- it's the typically simple message 'Go ahead with X instead of Y' that hinders plot development and slows things down to the pace of the United States Congress passing a bill on Immigration.
There are things that can and should happen behind the scenes, because they aren't that important of a detail, but they can and will hold up plots IG. I admire Desertman for hiring the minions he hires and having people do it in the game -- In my experience, it isn't always so simple though. People have variable playtimes, even within peak, and off-peak to be sure. I once played for a Noble that our only playtime overlap was Wednesday between 4-6:30PM. So much more could have developed, and been possible, between those two PCs if some sort of message relay system in the game were possible. One that allowed for spies/being overheard (which I feel was part of the importance of clan boards in the compound, should a spy come in and see what they are talking about).
Basically, something in the middle between extremes is what i'm looking for. I'd like communication to happen in the game -- I personally as well despise the GDB forums being used for anything besides documentation and playtimes. I hate the rumor boards. Why are these rumors being posted on the GDB and not being disseminated in the game?
My 2016 Presidency Platform:
*Eliminate GDB Rumor Threads
*Create a system that facilitates IG communication, and message passing, whether by PC or NPC
*Create a system that facilitates IG bag storage, and possible theft.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 18, 2016, 09:03:57 PM
I once played for a Noble that our only playtime overlap was Wednesday between 4-6:30PM. So much more could have developed, and been possible, between those two PCs if some sort of message relay system in the game were possible. One that allowed for spies/being overheard (which I feel was part of the importance of clan boards in the compound, should a spy come in and see what they are talking about).
I dont get it. Why didnt you just write a message on the scroll and given it to your aide to go deliver it to that other person?
Quote from: Dar on August 18, 2016, 09:12:44 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 18, 2016, 09:03:57 PM
I once played for a Noble that our only playtime overlap was Wednesday between 4-6:30PM. So much more could have developed, and been possible, between those two PCs if some sort of message relay system in the game were possible. One that allowed for spies/being overheard (which I feel was part of the importance of clan boards in the compound, should a spy come in and see what they are talking about).
I dont get it. Why didnt you just write a message on the scroll and given it to your aide to go deliver it to that other person?
Played -for- a noble.
Having played a noble and templar and yada as well, I can say the 'deliver a scroll to someone else' basically puts the problem in someone else's lap. It doesn't mean it happens overnight, and often, you will ask the recipient 'Did you get my scroll?' and they will look at you cross-eyed. It makes for more of a headache than an actual useful tool.
In a weird world, I would like an NPC courier. I give the scroll to the courier, and say 'Deliver this message to Noble Fuckbutter'. The NPC than traipses about the city like a dandy until Noble Fuckbutter logs in. Then, the NPC courier goes over to Lord Fuckbutter's Estate and attempts to deliver the scroll. In the meantime, PCs could mug this NPC, or kill them, in an attempt to gain the scroll.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 18, 2016, 09:20:44 PM
In a weird world, I would like an NPC courier. I give the scroll to the courier, and say 'Deliver this message to Noble Fuckbutter'. The NPC than traipses about the city like a dandy until Noble Fuckbutter logs in. Then, the NPC courier goes over to Lord Fuckbutter's Estate and attempts to deliver the scroll. In the meantime, PCs could mug this NPC, or kill them, in an attempt to gain the scroll.
This would be super-neat but with current code it's kind of a clusterfuck. For one thing, there is the semi-broken state of written objects--they just seem to get bugged very easily. For another thing, if the game crashes or otherwise reboots while the NPC is holding your message, the NPC and the message will both *poof*. And the message can't be retrieved since it's not actually saved in the database. Which, arguably would add to the insecurity and unreliability of the system, so maybe that's good? I don't know. Love the concept but our current code is a hindrance.
Quote from: Talia on August 18, 2016, 09:45:58 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 18, 2016, 09:20:44 PM
In a weird world, I would like an NPC courier. I give the scroll to the courier, and say 'Deliver this message to Noble Fuckbutter'. The NPC than traipses about the city like a dandy until Noble Fuckbutter logs in. Then, the NPC courier goes over to Lord Fuckbutter's Estate and attempts to deliver the scroll. In the meantime, PCs could mug this NPC, or kill them, in an attempt to gain the scroll.
This would be super-neat but with current code it's kind of a clusterfuck. For one thing, there is the semi-broken state of written objects--they just seem to get bugged very easily. For another thing, if the game crashes or otherwise reboots while the NPC is holding your message, the NPC and the message will both *poof*. And the message can't be retrieved since it's not actually saved in the database. Which, arguably would add to the insecurity and unreliability of the system, so maybe that's good? I don't know. Love the concept but our current code is a hindrance.
Yeah, totally. I think this another thing most people don't understand until they've gotten neck-deep into a Noble/Templar role and realize that while RW Sirihish/Etc. is nice...It is really a pain in the ass, and also unreliable.
I feel this is also a major holdup in the consideration of Reading/Writing for a more common populace (even if it were High Commoner, or what have you). Opening up the system to more people actually could hinder the game performance and just, well, it isn't perfect right now, so having more people use it really doesn't help.
I used to prefer IC clan boards as well. The trouble is they require being logged in to get all the info. If I'm a hiatus from the game for a week due to work or holiday, etc., I might still want to know what the latest is in my clan. Even when I'm not logged in, my character is still virtually a part of the world and would/should know the latest gossip. This is only possible with boards being accessible outside the game world.
As regards monthly role call posts, there are work arounds to not revealing who you are and when you play. Make an account solely for your clan and only post there to keep your anonymity. Also you don't HAVE to post what your play times are (or even post at all, if you really, truly don't want to). I see the role call posts as a courtesy to the players you will ideally be interacting with the most. Everyone hates the inability to work out when a character has kicked the bucket or not, the role calls help give us some inclination as to whether one of your fellow clanmates is still alive/has been seen.
Quote from: Suhuy on August 19, 2016, 08:19:45 AM
Make an account solely for your clan and only post there to keep your anonymity. Also you don't HAVE to post what your play times are (or even post at all, if you really, truly don't want to). I see the role call posts as a courtesy to the players you will ideally be interacting with the most.
This. It takes less than 60 seconds to do it and solves the problem. I do this every time I join a clan board.
1) regarding the concern that clan GDB fora are bad because you don't want people to know who's playing your character: that's why, when you ask to be added to the forum, you're asked which user name you want to use. I'm thinking from now on, I'll just use my character's name for the clan fora, and Lizzie for everything else. I just have to remember to log out and log back in as Lizzie when I want to do that (would LOVE to have an option similar to facebook option where you get a popup asking which name you want to post your current post under, before you hit the submit button). So this - is a total and complete non-issue.
2) I agree it sometimes feels like some players play the game on the GDB instead of in the game, and I agree that it doesn't sit right. For clan fora only - regarding RPTs: it'd be nice if Lady Muffy Fale would simply post:
There's an RPT coming up Saturday, 8PM server time. Will be at least 2 RL hours, there -will- be a quit-safe spot nearby. We need at least 3 PCs. Can I get a headcount of who *can* attend?
Strictly OOC coordination not of the event, but of the timing of the event. No information ABOUT the event, other than whether or not people can quit out if they can only make some of it.
Or something like:
Muffy Fale's post:
There is an inter-clan RPT coming up Saturday, 8PM server time. Blah blah blah, need at least 2 from Fale in addition to Lady Muffy herself. Headcount please.
So you know it's likely going to be a big or possibly long and confusing event, rather than just the usual weekly meeting in the clan hall.
All the stuff about...
Gate guards are all talking about seeing Malik stumble in, bleeding, and muttering something about elves and murderers and Borsail aides and gith, and he's carrying a gith spear tainted with bloodburn and looking for Lord Tenneshi...
that kind of stuff needs to be left to in-game clues. Drop a bloodied pair of sleeves and "arrange" it in front of Malik's locker so that everyone knows "something" happened to Malik, and let them find out the story totally in-game. Or let Amos take the sleeves and clean up because he doesn't want anyone to know that Malik got hurt, and wants people to think Malik's stark raving bonkers when he insists his clothes were so ripped they fell off his body when he got to his locker.
Agreed.
I don't mind if someone posts obvious important things that every single PC and NPC in the clan on that side of the world would know.
An employee was caught being a traitor and was publicly executed? Everyone would hear about that. Go ahead.
There is a huge job coming up and it has something to do with gith, or spiders. Go ahead and drop the vague details and when people should show up.
Someone fucked up and got lashes in the public courtyard and berated by a family member for their shit? Yeah, most people would get that juicy gossip.
Flowers go in this chest, and armor goes in this chest, and weapons go in this chest and Sergeant Fancy will get mad if you change it. No....do this in game if you want this to be a thing unless your character is IC'ly spending a large portion of their day shouting this to the rooftops to the point it WOULD become a public spectacle everyone would mutter about...(and only because you are an obvious nutter).
Clan boards are not in place for you to push your own "things" you are personally working on out there as though they are the gospel. Clan boards are there to announce changes in policy, big shifts in routines or traditions, big events that would actually cause a stir in the clan gossip, or upcoming big events so people can attend them.
(Even the events themselves might not be big news and might be vaguely hinted at, and are put there mainly as an OOC courtesy to PLAYERS so they can show up and take part in the fun.)
They also serve the function of detailing as an OOC CONVENIENCE that you might not be around for a while if you OOC'ly have to go away. Even then, your IC reason for going away should be vague UNLESS your IC reason is in fact something amazing/outstanding/incredibly unusual and public. The "away posts" are really there for OOC knowledge and courtesy and should be treated that way.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 19, 2016, 08:43:28 AM
All the stuff about...
Gate guards are all talking about seeing Malik stumble in, bleeding, and muttering something about elves and murderers and Borsail aides and gith, and he's carrying a gith spear tainted with bloodburn and looking for Lord Tenneshi...
that kind of stuff needs to be left to in-game clues. Drop a bloodied pair of sleeves and "arrange" it in front of Malik's locker so that everyone knows "something" happened to Malik, and let them find out the story totally in-game. Or let Amos take the sleeves and clean up because he doesn't want anyone to know that Malik got hurt, and wants people to think Malik's stark raving bonkers when he insists his clothes were so ripped they fell off his body when he got to his locker.
I would say that is the kind of thing for the in-game rumor boards, because it IS something people around the compound would be talking about. Mostly because you didn't put it WHAT EXACTLY was said, but just described the situation. Something like that would be rare, prompt people to then ASK Malik what actually happened, rather than "so I found these sleeves near the gate anyone know what they are?". However, I would say it is up to the player of Malik to decide to put this on the IG board, or not.
Back to a previous point: I've had time where someone has asked me to "pass something along" to a superior, and I accept full well knowing I might not log in on time to see them. So then my only course of action is to pass it along to someone else. This game of telephone COULD be interesting, but is a lot of wasted time then finding the superior later, and asking if they got the message, while the ORIGINAL PARTY already got a hold of them previously. These are times where I've told a number of clannies, or RPed talking to the gate guards to "mention it" to the Superior when they come in, and put it on the clan GDB. Usually its just "Kadius wants a word" or "Lord Templar Puff-N-Stuff wants a meeting, talk to his aide".
Its probably not 100% kosher or within people's comfort zones, but we're also playing a game. Its a completely OOC function that the person we need to talk to is unavailable for large periods of time.
That said, I think what happens currently isn't so bad. If its plot-line related, I DO understand. I've have numerous "time sensitive" things that needed either another player, or a staffer, to assist with and by the time 2 RL days have passed, it fizzles out and I just move on. It can be VERY frustrating (and hasn't happened recently) where you need to ask an NPC shopkeep something that happened less than an IG day ago, but by the time Staff get the request its been a few RL days and the "NPC couldn't possibly remember that". Or when, as an aide, your ONLY JOB was to talk to Lady Frills about her dress size, but by the time you see her she already has the dress in AND another order. It just plain sucks, but I havn't seen anything yet that really feels like THE ANSWER.
But if you don't use the clan boards to post gossip, how are they going to hear about it?
Maybe a hybrid approach works best, where you post the absolute bare bones on the clan GDB so people know what's going on, then post the rumors ICly. I actually like that idea a lot more because that way people a) know there's something to log in for, b) have to log in to get the gossip, as I honestly feel like they should. Yes, you're around virtually, but that's what in game clan boards are for. To catch you up on the latest.
Obviously these rules are a little more flexible depending on how small/tight-knit the clan is.
Quote from: Delirium on August 19, 2016, 09:25:48 AM
But if you don't use the clan boards to post gossip, how are they going to hear about it?
Maybe a hybrid approach works best, where you post the absolute bare bones on the clan GDB so people know what's going on, then post the rumors ICly. I actually like that idea a lot more because that way people a) know there's something to log in for, b) have to log in to get the gossip, as I honestly feel like they should. Yes, you're around virtually, but that's what in game clan boards are for. To catch you up on the latest.
Obviously these rules are a little more flexible depending on how small/tight-knit the clan is.
I like this.
Dman - in some cases, what goes in which chest IS important, because of time constrictions. It SHOULD be obvious that only flowers go in the dark carved box that has a lot of flowers in it. Sadly, it doesn't happen that way and you end up trying to find the three purple flowers for an order your boss needs, and there are 5 boxes, 4 trunks, 6 bins, 2 sets of shelves, an a set of cabinets - and you only see one purple flower. You have no way of knowing if the other two exist but are in the wrong box, unless you check every single box (keyword still has to be done on each individual box and if there are purple-hued flowers and purple-striped pants and purple tablets and so on and so forth it gets stupid). If you only have 10 hours a week to play, do you seriously think it should be on your character, who simply likes to have boxes for specific things, to spend the entirety of the 10 hours sorting boxes?
It's a playability issue. Otherwise - don't whine if everything from your locker is missing and someone else's stuff is in it. Cause you know, ain't nobody got time to pay attention to whose locker is whose.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 19, 2016, 12:00:42 PM
Dman - in some cases, what goes in which chest IS important, because of time constrictions. It SHOULD be obvious that only flowers go in the dark carved box that has a lot of flowers in it. Sadly, it doesn't happen that way and you end up trying to find the three purple flowers for an order your boss needs, and there are 5 boxes, 4 trunks, 6 bins, 2 sets of shelves, an a set of cabinets - and you only see one purple flower. You have no way of knowing if the other two exist but are in the wrong box, unless you check every single box (keyword still has to be done on each individual box and if there are purple-hued flowers and purple-striped pants and purple tablets and so on and so forth it gets stupid). If you only have 10 hours a week to play, do you seriously think it should be on your character, who simply likes to have boxes for specific things, to spend the entirety of the 10 hours sorting boxes?
It's a playability issue. Otherwise - don't whine if everything from your locker is missing and someone else's stuff is in it. Cause you know, ain't nobody got time to pay attention to whose locker is whose.
No argument. Everything you have said is absolutely true.
But that does not make it news that should be posted as though it's actually news.....because it isn't.
If you are having organizational problems as a leader, then you need to better train your people and you need to handle it IC. You don't need to post up as though your thoughts on organization and item sorting are somehow on par with major clan events....they aren't or actual company-wide gossip....they aren't in any way.
I understand it is annoying and it's just so much easier to make a GDB post about it than handle it IC'ly....but what it's not is "company/House-wide rumor worthy".
I see it as taking the easy road instead of choosing to simply be a better leader in the game as it relates to training, controlling, motivating, and punishing (when needed) your people to make your IC system you want to create and run actually run.
(Also, I'm not picking specifically on this sorting thing. This was just my example I came up with and used because I've seen it before. Anything that fits into this same "level of importance" also applies.)
If you have a specific way you want your people in the game to, for example, wear their belts. Say you want them all to wear their belts with the buckles off-center to the left because you like it that way and you want that to be a thing. That does not mean you should make a GDB post about it in your clan boards as though the entire House would know about, care about, or even hear about your desired system. You should handle it in the game. You shouldn't just make a GDB post about how you want things done to "make sure everyone hears about it" because that's easier than actually training your people to do what you want them to do in the game world and fit the system you have designed.
While a much simpler process than creating and utilizing a storage system/organizational system for your people in the game world the criteria is the same. If you have a specific system you want to train your people to be a part of, then actually train them in the game to do it. Don't take the no-effort easy road because, "Doing it in the game is hard.".
Having seen large, disorganized store-rooms, I'm pretty sure there WOULD be a well-known policy in place to keep things moving.
This is a good discussion. I'm glad it's happening, and I've changed my mind, I don't want an NPC gate guard that holds messages. Every two Houses should snatch up one of these youths that run around from tavern to tavern in the streets, and use them as messengers when needed. House Borsail and House Salarr should have one, just for going back and forth between them, and it could reasonably be sometimes on of said House's members, but not necessarily. If it's not, and it's just an unaffiliated urchin, their mind should be your rumor board. Forbid them from speaking about your business, but way them messages to courier back and forth. ;D
What Dman said about large-scale, House-wide worthy gossip versus what goes where, and who can use what locker, etc, I really wish that was in game. I played a thief once who got clanned, and I knew from the board posts who was dead, and which over-filled locker was ripe for the picking. I realize now, that was completely ooc information, I should NOT have known that, at all, without coming across the information IC. There was a lot of wasted potential for RP interaction, failure, and more overall fun. Granted, this isn't the poster's fault, it's not, really, but there is a lot of wasted rp potential that comes across the clan fora as 'So and so came in bleeding from a gith hunt', or 'So and so didn't return at all'. Might be news worthy as a leader, but when it's about recruits... would the whole house really give that much of a shit, when half the PC's in it haven't even ICly met the person? I don't know. It's just given me a lot to think about. Regarding storerooms, and what goes where though, if you can oocly go to a page and find out the information, then know ICly, why can't the leader keep a small list for themselves, and actually tell their trainees? My leadership skill is slowly making it's way to journeyman, methinks.
I've been advocating for a long time that resource-management and communication tasks should be supported by a mobile-device app that integrates with the game itself.
Let people take care of the logistics bullcrap without having to worry that if they're attacked, they won't be able to flee or communicate effectively because they're logged in on their phone.
.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 19, 2016, 02:28:00 PM
I've been advocating for a long time that resource-management and communication tasks should be supported by a mobile-device app that integrates with the game itself.
Let people take care of the logistics bullcrap without having to worry that if they're attacked, they won't be able to flee or communicate effectively because they're logged in on their phone.
Intriguing. Can you explain a bit of what this might look like?
Quote from: Reiloth on August 19, 2016, 03:57:49 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 19, 2016, 02:28:00 PM
I've been advocating for a long time that resource-management and communication tasks should be supported by a mobile-device app that integrates with the game itself.
Let people take care of the logistics bullcrap without having to worry that if they're attacked, they won't be able to flee or communicate effectively because they're logged in on their phone.
Intriguing. Can you explain a bit of what this might look like?
Start it small with only psionics.
When you open the Textageddon app, it logs your PC into some OOC space where only basic psionics work.
You don't get hungry or thirsty. The only commands you can use are contact and psi. Your PC doesn't gain "hours played." They're just sort of sitting there so people can contact you. When you get a psi message, your phone dings or vibrates or whatever, and you can choose to reply or not. Mindbenders would be able to intercept the messages in any way they would ordinarily be able to do it, assuming they even can. Anyone who contacted you would get some sort of notification that you're in text-space, not game-space. It could be something vague and artsy-fartsy like "their mind seems distant" or some shit, if you really want to keep the stylistic elements.
It would be an entirely OOC construct with no IC explanation, just like logging out is in the first place. If your PC is already logged in the regular way, you wouldn't be able to log into Textageddon. If you're logged into Textageddon then you log in the regular way, you get kicked out of Textageddon.
I like this idea, a lot.
contact person
psi Hey we gotta blah blah
Their mind is distant.
think Guess they're asleep.
It'd be on the player to handle it appropriately. For instance, you should only use Textageddon if it makes sense for your PC's IC situation. No being a hunted raider, for instance, taunting pursuers from the safety of quasi-OOC land. I have no problem with trusting players with that sort of responsibility. It's like OOC Quit. If someone abuses it, just smack them.
Synthesis, you should make a thread about this idea.
Quote from: Large Hero on August 20, 2016, 05:15:37 AM
I like this idea, a lot.
contact person
psi Hey we gotta blah blah
Their mind is distant.
think Guess they're asleep.
It'd be on the player to handle it appropriately. For instance, you should only use Textageddon if it makes sense for your PC's IC situation. No being a hunted raider, for instance, taunting pursuers from the safety of quasi-OOC land. I have no problem with trusting players with that sort of responsibility. It's like OOC Quit. If someone abuses it, just smack them.
Synthesis, you should make a thread about this idea.
You could also make it a clan job. So that, say, only sponsored leaders, and perhaps anyone they manually assigned it to, had the ability to use it. Or even just whichever sponsored leaders have use of who -c currently, though I daresay that having their aide/right hand/beotch reachable would make a lot of sense for the noble version as opposed to the gmh version of this, if it were divided up that way, maybe corporals and above in the arm, first troopers and above in the byn, etc etc.
If you have a clan with a storage room with over a dozen different categories of items divided into different containers, then to me it seems silly to say that information should be passed along by word of mouth. Same with clans with numerous clan lockers. To me, it's not a matter of whether something is difficult or not, but rather a matter of what a leader should spend their time doing. As a leader I wouldn't want to go over that (let's face it, multiple times) with each underling. Nor would I want to delegate that to someone else, because I don't think it's a reasonable use of anyone's time to focus on something so tedious. This is a game, after all. Maybe I'm biased because in leadership roles I considered time especially precious, as I try to fit in Armageddon time with an already busy life. Which I have no doubt is also the case for many others who take on leadership roles.
(By the way, I agree that organization posts shouldn't go on rumor threads. Because they aren't rumors. It's ironic that an everything-has-its-place post would end up in the wrong place like that, but organization posts should go in their own thread. I've never seen it otherwise, but there are clans I haven't played in.)
However, I'd like to issue a challenge. If you're playing a leader and feel like organization posts, clan locker posts, and check-in posts on clan gdb forums are cramping your style, ask your clan staff to delete them. Lead by example. Do what you think a better leader should be doing. And then come back and tell us how it went, and how long it took before you went back to the way everyone does it now.
I'm glad clan staff were willing to delete those kinds of threads for you. Good to know.
I think that works out fine for some clans, but a clan like the Byn which has ridiculous turnover... that would never work.
Tribes are also an area where an organization thread is useful, since everyone would know where the feathers are.
I'm of the view that the gdb should carry:
o Rumours Thread.
o Organizational Thread.
o RPT Scheduling Thread(s).
o Roll Call Thread.
o Absences Thread.
I'd like to see the Rumours Thread replicated on the boards inside the game so sneaks can overhear them, but I understand that's a technical challenge.
Things like organizational threads, roll call threads, rpt scheduling threads, absences threads move the tedium out of the RP, so you can get on with RP. Just ask anyone who has played an aide: 40% of the RP is: psi ooc: Does 8pm work for your lord? No? How about Saturday?
Quote from: Synthesis on August 20, 2016, 03:19:35 AM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 19, 2016, 03:57:49 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 19, 2016, 02:28:00 PM
I've been advocating for a long time that resource-management and communication tasks should be supported by a mobile-device app that integrates with the game itself.
Let people take care of the logistics bullcrap without having to worry that if they're attacked, they won't be able to flee or communicate effectively because they're logged in on their phone.
Intriguing. Can you explain a bit of what this might look like?
Start it small with only psionics.
When you open the Textageddon app, it logs your PC into some OOC space where only basic psionics work.
You don't get hungry or thirsty. The only commands you can use are contact and psi. Your PC doesn't gain "hours played." They're just sort of sitting there so people can contact you. When you get a psi message, your phone dings or vibrates or whatever, and you can choose to reply or not. Mindbenders would be able to intercept the messages in any way they would ordinarily be able to do it, assuming they even can. Anyone who contacted you would get some sort of notification that you're in text-space, not game-space. It could be something vague and artsy-fartsy like "their mind seems distant" or some shit, if you really want to keep the stylistic elements.
It would be an entirely OOC construct with no IC explanation, just like logging out is in the first place. If your PC is already logged in the regular way, you wouldn't be able to log into Textageddon. If you're logged into Textageddon then you log in the regular way, you get kicked out of Textageddon.
The reason I personally like this is that -- It further represents people in their 'virtual space'. So when people are 'Never Reachable' or encounter that sort of bad mouthing in game, (Salarr? Good luck finding a Salarri!), having some sort of stop-gap where you can get in touch with people while they are offline or leave messages would be great. Having barrier up when you log off would negate it? Or make it so you don't get the messages.
It's something that i'd like to change about contact -- That you 'Find the Mind'. It'd be nice if the wording were changed, or the messages were changed, so that it's like you are sending messages up to a Satellite. You don't get the 'delivered' response when you send a way. You just send it out into the ether. If someone responds, they got your message. But it's part of that age-old idea that the Way shouldn't work 100% across long distances. I've seen people RP dropping words or letters when they are very far away, and I really like that.
In essence it'd be nice if the way wasn't 100% accurate, allowing for people to go off the grid, but also allowing a service like this (Textageddon as you call it) where people can pick up offline messages, but it isn't jarring to someone IG. The 'Mind is Distant' could apply to people very far away from you, as well.
Just chiming in to say that Synth's idea is really great.
Synths idea sounds pretty good I admit, and I suppose it does make plenty of sense ICly and is conveniant as shit OOCly.
However it has room for abuse I think, in that people could just spend all day talking to their ic friends, I mean sure Bynner #828373734929297 is on gate and is talking to fme pc #928283747383937 and that does make sense ICly. Your character is logged off. If you want to talk to fme pc #928283747383937 then log in when you get the chance.
There is also the raiders thing mentioned earlier, but overall good solid idea with some room for improvement.
So I had this same issue, primarily with merchants and such and came up with a possible solution.
So we make an NPC that sits in a small hut outside of the GMH compounds. They act somewhat like the tailor in that they write tickets and hold equipment. The merchant of a house can drop off equipment with the NPC and set the amount that is due to be paid, the NPC will rite the merchant a writ. The writ can then be picked up or delivered at any time. Thus now all the purchaser needs to do is bring the writ and the money at any time of day and can pick up their equipment.
I think this is good because it's not giving Joe McGrebsalot any amount of money or precious armor piece, but simply a writ of holding. It seems much more appropriate and I'm much more willing to give a grey and brown grebber PC the job of delivering that to me than my precious kryl-plated thong, which they could run off with.
Possibly even this PC could act like a purchasing rumor board "Reciting" possible purchases from PC's that are not on along the same times as the merchants.
Thoughts? Is this adding another middleman to the mix? Solution? Problem?
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on August 23, 2016, 06:56:29 AM
So I had this same issue, primarily with merchants and such and came up with a possible solution.
So we make an NPC that sits in a small hut outside of the GMH compounds. They act somewhat like the tailor in that they write tickets and hold equipment. The merchant of a house can drop off equipment with the NPC and set the amount that is due to be paid, the NPC will rite the merchant a writ. The writ can then be picked up or delivered at any time. Thus now all the purchaser needs to do is bring the writ and the money at any time of day and can pick up their equipment.
I think this is good because it's not giving Joe McGrebsalot any amount of money or precious armor piece, but simply a writ of holding. It seems much more appropriate and I'm much more willing to give a grey and brown grebber PC the job of delivering that to me than my precious kryl-plated thong, which they could run off with.
Possibly even this PC could act like a purchasing rumor board "Reciting" possible purchases for PC's that are not on along the same times as the merchants.
Thoughts? Is this adding another middleman to the mix? Solution? Problem?
Existing situation:
Sometimes it takes a long time to FIND a PC GMH merchant to buy from.
Sometimes, when you find one, it takes a long time for the GMH to provide what you ordered.
Sometimes, when you find one, and the item is now available, it takes a long time for it to actually be delivered.
A "tailor-script" NPC in a hut right outside the gate at the GMH compound sounds like it'd be a great solution to the last issue. That's always the most frustrating part, to me - I know I put the order in, I know the PC has the item, and between their clan and mine there are just way too many "things" going on for us to actually meet and get the item delivered.
I wouldn't care all that much about the first two issues, because the delays COULD be totally IC: the merchant PC doesn't -want- your business, for whatever reason.
But once it's been ordered and the PC tells you he has it, it's pretty much a done deal. All that's left to do is arrange the pickup.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 23, 2016, 07:44:13 AM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on August 23, 2016, 06:56:29 AM
So I had this same issue, primarily with merchants and such and came up with a possible solution.
So we make an NPC that sits in a small hut outside of the GMH compounds. They act somewhat like the tailor in that they write tickets and hold equipment. The merchant of a house can drop off equipment with the NPC and set the amount that is due to be paid, the NPC will rite the merchant a writ. The writ can then be picked up or delivered at any time. Thus now all the purchaser needs to do is bring the writ and the money at any time of day and can pick up their equipment.
I think this is good because it's not giving Joe McGrebsalot any amount of money or precious armor piece, but simply a writ of holding. It seems much more appropriate and I'm much more willing to give a grey and brown grebber PC the job of delivering that to me than my precious kryl-plated thong, which they could run off with.
Possibly even this PC could act like a purchasing rumor board "Reciting" possible purchases for PC's that are not on along the same times as the merchants.
Thoughts? Is this adding another middleman to the mix? Solution? Problem?
Existing situation:
Sometimes it takes a long time to FIND a PC GMH merchant to buy from.
Sometimes, when you find one, it takes a long time for the GMH to provide what you ordered.
Sometimes, when you find one, and the item is now available, it takes a long time for it to actually be delivered.
A "tailor-script" NPC in a hut right outside the gate at the GMH compound sounds like it'd be a great solution to the last issue. That's always the most frustrating part, to me - I know I put the order in, I know the PC has the item, and between their clan and mine there are just way too many "things" going on for us to actually meet and get the item delivered.
I wouldn't care all that much about the first two issues, because the delays COULD be totally IC: the merchant PC doesn't -want- your business, for whatever reason.
But once it's been ordered and the PC tells you he has it, it's pretty much a done deal. All that's left to do is arrange the pickup.
It WOULD require someone to deliver the writ of purchase, but that can be done fairly easily, either by the GMH hunters, or random PCs. Additionally this would put more bearing on buying GMH rather than Indie.
Also the writs would be a major buff to those with steal/stealth skills. Yoink, jewel encrusted blade, spiked tower shield, and obsidian platemail here I come! Pickpockets would be ever more dangerous... I like the suggestion because it's not foolproof and encourages caution and interaction with groups and potential plots, you could ransom someone's order, or just fence it, or have it delivered to someone you like. I see a lot of potential there.
I've never used the Nenyuk jewelry bank or whatever it is, but perhaps that could provide a useful template.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 23, 2016, 03:39:57 PM
you could ransom someone's order, or just fence it, or have it delivered to someone you like. I see a lot of potential there.
Thereby demolishing weeks of RL effort to arrange of the order, get the things necessary to complete the order, and then successfully fill the order for a chance to use a busted skillset.
Yeah, I'll just back away... My disgust for the "potential" of pickpockets to add enjoyment to the game for anyone other than pickpocket doesn't really allow me to post objectively.
Pickpockets can make decent spies as well as providing another coded vector to antagonize enemies besides the mantis head. I know it can be hard to "enjoy" getting stolen from, but it is possible to negotiate by using your head and having the right contacts. Keep in mind having a pickpocket iln the pocket can be a boon when you need to send someone a message. I could say the same thing about powerful clanned PCs having untouchable status and uber leet skills being vexing, there's really no way to take them down a notch without outright eliminating them, and that's kind of sad, because some know they're untouchable and act like it in some seriously rediculous situations.
Pickpockets and burglars are a way to get back at those people with plausible deniability, I think it's funny how when something gets stolen the witchhunt gets fired up almost immediately, that almost for sure gaurentees you're never getting grandpappy's favorite axe back. It sucks getting stolen from but it's to your benefit to have thieves on the payroll, both as a matter of payback, and that the best way I've found to catch a thief is with another thief, and clever negotiation. It adds subtlety and risk in ways other methods do not.
i sincerely prefer losing everything i own to a thief than to a murderer.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 23, 2016, 03:39:57 PM
Also the writs would be a major buff to those with steal/stealth skills. Yoink, jewel encrusted blade, spiked tower shield, and obsidian platemail here I come! Pickpockets would be ever more dangerous... I like the suggestion because it's not foolproof and encourages caution and interaction with groups and potential plots, you could ransom someone's order, or just fence it, or have it delivered to someone you like. I see a lot of potential there.
I've never used the Nenyuk jewelry bank or whatever it is, but perhaps that could provide a useful template.
This is wrong. The person who stole it would still have to pay the amount to the NPC. Kinda defeats the purpose. Unless you're doing some high concept Nobility rivalry/insult thing I see no reason to steal another persons writ. It's not really like the tailor or mount ticket in that aspect.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on August 24, 2016, 02:11:29 AM
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 23, 2016, 03:39:57 PM
Also the writs would be a major buff to those with steal/stealth skills. Yoink, jewel encrusted blade, spiked tower shield, and obsidian platemail here I come! Pickpockets would be ever more dangerous... I like the suggestion because it's not foolproof and encourages caution and interaction with groups and potential plots, you could ransom someone's order, or just fence it, or have it delivered to someone you like. I see a lot of potential there.
I've never used the Nenyuk jewelry bank or whatever it is, but perhaps that could provide a useful template.
This is wrong. The person who stole it would still have to pay the amount to the NPC. Kinda defeats the purpose. Unless you're doing some high concept Nobility rivalry/insult thing I see no reason to steal another persons writ. It's not really like the tailor or mount ticket in that aspect.
You, sir, are mistaken. You pay the amount, but if it's stolen from the courier, then it damages the reputation of the merchant, and if it's stolen from the customer, it means they have to place another order, and just look silly.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 24, 2016, 03:29:13 AM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on August 24, 2016, 02:11:29 AM
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 23, 2016, 03:39:57 PM
Also the writs would be a major buff to those with steal/stealth skills. Yoink, jewel encrusted blade, spiked tower shield, and obsidian platemail here I come! Pickpockets would be ever more dangerous... I like the suggestion because it's not foolproof and encourages caution and interaction with groups and potential plots, you could ransom someone's order, or just fence it, or have it delivered to someone you like. I see a lot of potential there.
I've never used the Nenyuk jewelry bank or whatever it is, but perhaps that could provide a useful template.
This is wrong. The person who stole it would still have to pay the amount to the NPC. Kinda defeats the purpose. Unless you're doing some high concept Nobility rivalry/insult thing I see no reason to steal another persons writ. It's not really like the tailor or mount ticket in that aspect.
You, sir, are mistaken. You pay the amount, but if it's stolen from the courier, then it damages the reputation of the merchant, and if it's stolen from the customer, it means they have to place another order, and just look silly.
LOLwat? This is my idea. I'm telling you how it is.
The Merchant sets the price for each writ, and the item is procured only afterward if you are at the shop with:
1. The writ.
2. The money.
junk writ