Here, you can discuss the changes described here:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51410.msg951956.html#msg951956
QuoteThe main script I wrote is called "SimDesert Object". Like "SimDesert", it allows specified objects to spawn throughout the world or within specific areas, according to certain conditions.
can you spawn, snakes/rodents/etc. in city at a high-frequency with this code?
for instance. condition = nighttime, object = snakes, action spawning in labyrinth with a room message as if they are coming from sewers
Quote from: purpledragon on July 10, 2016, 02:20:15 PM
QuoteThe main script I wrote is called "SimDesert Object". Like "SimDesert", it allows specified objects to spawn throughout the world or within specific areas, according to certain conditions.
can you spawn, snakes/rodents/etc. in city at a high-frequency with this code?
for instance. condition = nighttime, object = snakes, action spawning in labyrinth with a room message as if they are coming from sewers
...and use it to better control the over-spawning of other mobs...(cough*hgsoldiers*cough)
I like the salting changes a lot.
I think these sound amazing!! I love the idea of being able to directly affect the resources of the world based on PC activity.
You just made me horny, baby.
How would one use a shovel for salt?
Can you now find deposits of salt? Could you always find deposits of salt?
Or is it just like
Use shovel (While in a room with salt)
Nvm
"chances of finding patches of colored salt, "
I like the idea of salt patches too.
I said before worst thing about rolling a character is starting forage skill. I think it should be raised to apprentice so people don't fall asleep at their key board foraging for half a day without result. Its not really the best of newbie experiences either. Really boring.
Look forward to this change.
I like this. It does seem to favor characters on mounts though. For good or bad I hope some of the methods of coin making around the city are looked at too.
I do look forward to seeing what else can be made from sim-desert 2000.
Quote from: Jihelu on July 10, 2016, 02:54:16 PM
How would one use a shovel for salt?
Can you now find deposits of salt? Could you always find deposits of salt?
Or is it just like
Use shovel (While in a room with salt)
Nvm
"chances of finding patches of colored salt, "
You can't forage for salt patches, but you might run into them while traveling in the Salt Flats.
To dig the salt, you can type 'use patch' or 'dig patch' if you're using your hands to dig, or 'use shovel patch' or 'dig shovel patch' to use a shovel to dig.
Do patches come in all colors (not at the same time of course) or only certain ones? Though I suppose this could be found out more ic, I'll make a major salting character some time!
They come in all colors.
Gotcha.
I like this as it somewhat ends the idea of "Oh I salt all the time I'm rich" but it still rewards people who want to go further into the flats and find the good stuff.
I like this change. I can't wait to see it implemented for other things.
Plants. Rare gemstones. Plants. Plants. Soldiers. Plants. Edible insects. Also plants.
I think the more random the game can be, the better. Great to see that old script getting some new love. Keep up the good work guys, this old dirt-blooded nerd is loving it.
I've never messed with the salt a lot, mostly because I never cared to but this makes me consider doing so one day.
Can't wait to see this implemented for plants. I'm not even going to pretend for everything else. Plants need this.
This is such a good thing.
Will these custom forage tables be random/changing? I.e. will 'learning' forage rooms still be possible as it has been for a long time, or does this intentionally make foraging harder/more valuable due to unpredictability?
This is a good change.
Riding a few rooms east of the city and mindlessly entering the same command with effectively zero risk to generate money in the most effort/risk/reward efficient method was dumb.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 10, 2016, 04:14:02 PM
Will these custom forage tables be random/changing? I.e. will 'learning' forage rooms still be possible as it has been for a long time, or does this intentionally make foraging harder/more valuable due to unpredictability?
It's certainly possible for them to change within a defined set of possibilities, yes.
500% onboard with this and can't wait to see how it impacts the game world. I don't roll combat/foarging NPCs very often, but I can see how this could impact more than just people who do it for money. It's going to have an impact on the ones who buy from them, and an affect on the economy in general. Stoked to see how it goes, and can't wait to see it implemented for plants as well :)
Very nice change. Thank you Nergal and Staff!
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/12/04/20/2F10B9E300000578-3346634-image-a-1_1449262317706.jpg)
The Kadian salting crew.
Great changes Nergal and co.
I just have to say a bit on testing the SimDesert Object, because it was entertaining and well, doesn't hurt anyone. So we made a tumbleweed object (someday may come to an area near you!) and this thing can move, and moves around based on all sorts of variable conditions, it's AWESOME. So Nergal and I were chatting, he was testing the script... I wonder what happens if we put a 1000 tumbleweed or high numbers, I wonder what it would do. Nergal is like, Oh... it seems to work great! As thousands of tumbleweed are blowing all over the grasslands as he tests it out. Ginka 2.0 took that shit like a champ! (Of course, this was not done on the same instance you all play on.)
Neat little story that I thought to share with you. The possibilities of these new scripts are endless.
IT'S HIGH SUN
geekgasm over this
Quote from: Ath on July 10, 2016, 07:59:33 PM
I just have to say a bit on testing the SimDesert Object, because it was entertaining and well, doesn't hurt anyone. So we made a tumbleweed object (someday may come to an area near you!) and this thing can move, and moves around based on all sorts of variable conditions, it's AWESOME. So Nergal and I were chatting, he was testing the script... I wonder what happens if we put a 1000 tumbleweed or high numbers, I wonder what it would do. Nergal is like, Oh... it seems to work great! As thousands of tumbleweed are blowing all over the grasslands as he tests it out. Ginka 2.0 took that shit like a champ! (Of course, this was not done on the same instance you all play on.)
Neat little story that I thought to share with you. The possibilities of these new scripts are endless.
That sounds awesome.
Can we maybe get a much longer delay added to getting salt from the patches? As it is, it's lots easier and faster to salt now.
Quote from: Rokal on July 10, 2016, 11:33:47 PM
Quote from: Ath on July 10, 2016, 07:59:33 PM
I just have to say a bit on testing the SimDesert Object, because it was entertaining and well, doesn't hurt anyone. So we made a tumbleweed object (someday may come to an area near you!) and this thing can move, and moves around based on all sorts of variable conditions, it's AWESOME. So Nergal and I were chatting, he was testing the script... I wonder what happens if we put a 1000 tumbleweed or high numbers, I wonder what it would do. Nergal is like, Oh... it seems to work great! As thousands of tumbleweed are blowing all over the grasslands as he tests it out. Ginka 2.0 took that shit like a champ! (Of course, this was not done on the same instance you all play on.)
Neat little story that I thought to share with you. The possibilities of these new scripts are endless.
That sounds awesome.
second the awesomeness. now do this ig! so i can chase the tumbeweed!
seriously though stuff like this makes the game come alive for me. Even the randomness some people do like. Drop flute a something or other is here playing the flute blah blah. not a skin flute. well until someone comes and steals the poor whatevers flute....
I'm already dreaming of staring down a fellow salter over a good crystal deposit, everything gets tense and then.
A tumble weed blows in the east.
a tumble weed leaves west.
Showdown time.
Quote from: th3kaiser on July 10, 2016, 11:38:02 PM
Can we maybe get a much longer delay added to getting salt from the patches? As it is, it's lots easier and faster to salt now.
Could you toss up a request on this? If you have feedback, or something doesn't seem right, it would be preferred there so we can discuss with you and on our end if needed. Thank you for this though, we appreciate the feedback.
You guys are totally using a modified poop script for the salt deposits, aren't you?
Quote from: Kankman on July 11, 2016, 12:00:11 PM
You guys are totally using a modified poop script for the salt deposits, aren't you?
It's actually entirely new and does a lot of different things that we can utilize. We've thought of a bunch of neat ideas for it, but I'm sure there are ways we haven't even thought of yet.
Quote from: Majikal on July 11, 2016, 12:38:34 AM
I'm already dreaming of staring down a fellow salter over a good crystal deposit, everything gets tense and then.
A tumble weed blows in the east.
a tumble weed leaves west.
Showdown time.
'well I'm your huckleberry.' the small, wax stached man says in southern accented sirihish.
Quote from: Ath on July 10, 2016, 07:59:33 PM
I just have to say a bit on testing the SimDesert Object, because it was entertaining and well, doesn't hurt anyone. So we made a tumbleweed object (someday may come to an area near you!) and this thing can move, and moves around based on all sorts of variable conditions, it's AWESOME. So Nergal and I were chatting, he was testing the script... I wonder what happens if we put a 1000 tumbleweed or high numbers, I wonder what it would do. Nergal is like, Oh... it seems to work great! As thousands of tumbleweed are blowing all over the grasslands as he tests it out. Ginka 2.0 took that shit like a champ! (Of course, this was not done on the same instance you all play on.)
Neat little story that I thought to share with you. The possibilities of these new scripts are endless.
Meanwhile in the grasslands:
https://i.imgur.com/62YOzvs.gifv
Well. Time to steal an ant queen and lay a trail of pheromonones to Allanak. 1000 randomly (probably affected by wind), moving tumbleweeds? That's nice. Now ... replace it with ants!
Affected by wind, yes. That's one of the movement types we have available for objects.
Quote from: Nergal on July 12, 2016, 09:26:01 AM
Affected by wind, yes. That's one of the movement types we have available for objects.
Let me fly my kite item now.
k thx bai
Can we maybe NOT get a much longer delay added to getting salt from the patches? As it is, it's lots easier and faster to salt now with Meks wandering right nearby to me and I am command-delay locked from my new pound-me-with-a-Mek shot.
Suggestion: any delay should be pre-delay. Post delays cause death traps that end up feeling pretty cheesy.
Quote from: Delirium on July 12, 2016, 12:43:21 PM
Suggestion: any delay should be pre-delay. Post delays cause death traps that end up feeling pretty cheesy.
Died to a bahamet on a forage delay once. Can confirm. Pretty retarded. I typed flee at least ten times and was unable to do so because my character was more worried about digging pot shards than running from that bahamet.
Flee should in my opinion cancel MOST delays related to MOST skills. (Probably not combat skills, since those should be calculated.)
Maybe replace -some- of the meks with less dangerous animals that are not an insta kill?
Quote from: Norcal on July 12, 2016, 01:55:27 PM
Maybe replace -some- of the meks with less dangerous animals that are not an insta kill?
That would kind of defeat the purpose of making it more dangerous, yes?
I think there can be a happy medium found between "little to no chance of real danger" and "nearly instantaneous death."
Big critters like meks are kind of ridiculous because they rely on reaction time and good ping to survive. If they catch you, you're dead. So you just need to ride away as quickly as possible. And if they've somehow flipped into run mode, God help you.
A bad lag spike or a few typos can really ruin your day.
I personally find Dujat to be a much more interesting design of creature. Sure they're dangerous. But they won't kill in the first round of combat. If you can't fight them, they'll try to track you. This forces a much more interesting counter play that relies on finding a safe place they can't traverse.
I don't know how this could be done ins the salt flats though, where there just isn't much variation in terrain.
the ability to l ne
Or potentially a script that makes the ground rumble whenever a mekillot or bahamet has a path of two rooms to you. So that would work if they are diagonal from you or if they are two rooms in a cardinal direction.
Not sure how difficult either of these would be to code but it would certainly solve the problem of mekillots stealthing up on you.
On the topic of terrain variation:
Bring back the area that was delinked from the salt flats, but open it up as a desolate ruin... just one that big critters like worms and mekillots don't fit into.
That way you have at least somewhere to run and hide if you're being chased (and somewhere for raiders to lurk and wait for desperate, wounded salters).
Quote from: Yam on July 12, 2016, 02:31:22 PM
Or potentially a script that makes the ground rumble whenever a mekillot or bahamet has a path of two rooms to you. So that would work if they are diagonal from you or if they are two rooms in a cardinal direction.
Not sure how difficult either of these would be to code but it would certainly solve the problem of mekillots stealthing up on you.
+1
>The ground shakes to the northeast.
>The ground shakes to the east.
>The ground shakes to the southeast.
Just
you feel the ground shake ?
And run. Some way ;D
Quote from: Delirium on July 12, 2016, 02:22:57 PM
I think there can be a happy medium found between "little to no chance of real danger" and "nearly instantaneous death."
I think nearly every death in Armageddon is 'nearly instantaneous', at least in so far as it turning from handleable into death-driving; once I know death is going to happen, it doesn't matter whether it happens in two hits or from a slow-working poison. It happening with a reel instead of drawn out hunt after you is not such a concern to me. The danger of the salt flats -is- meks, aside from the classic new mistakes of not bringing water and running your mount to exhaustion.
If we just made everything more middling and removed that danger of death in such ways, the idea of promoting more danger for the reward is kind of a moot point, because we'd be countering it immediately by making it easier.
The 'compromise' I see is that these deposits are actually still surprisingly low risk for high reward. I'd like to see a new creature that is anakore-like that burrows in salt deposits and works like an ant lion, occasionally grabbing at prey wandering too close, and varying in degree of difficulty wildly, from chalton-like difficulty to tembo-like difficulty. Make them not visible with scan, but part of the deposit object in some way. Not present in all of them, but in some of them. Make salting alone just as risky as hunting abroad alone, and salt operations more of a thing.
Meks should remain a very real and present danger at all times on the flats. Not something that is just bad luck. The edge is safe, but low reward. That was the purpose of the entire thing, from what I read out of the post.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 12, 2016, 06:41:57 PM
Quote from: Delirium on July 12, 2016, 02:22:57 PM
I think there can be a happy medium found between "little to no chance of real danger" and "nearly instantaneous death."
I think nearly every death in Armageddon is 'nearly instantaneous', at least in so far as it turning from handleable into death-driving; once I know death is going to happen, it doesn't matter whether it happens in two hits or from a slow-working poison. It happening with a reel instead of drawn out hunt after you is not such a concern to me. The danger of the salt flats -is- meks, aside from the classic new mistakes of not bringing water and running your mount to exhaustion.
If we just made everything more middling and removed that danger of death in such ways, the idea of promoting more danger for the reward is kind of a moot point, because we'd be countering it immediately by making it easier.
The 'compromise' I see is that these deposits are actually still surprisingly low risk for high reward. I'd like to see a new creature that is anakore-like that burrows in salt deposits and works like an ant lion, occasionally grabbing at prey wandering too close, and varying in degree of difficulty wildly, from chalton-like difficulty to tembo-like difficulty. Make them not visible with scan, but part of the deposit object in some way. Not present in all of them, but in some of them. Make salting alone just as risky as hunting abroad alone, and salt operations more of a thing.
Meks should remain a very real and present danger at all times on the flats. Not something that is just bad luck. The edge is safe, but low reward. That was the purpose of the entire thing, from what I read out of the post.
Kind of like those snakes that hide in certain plants ? But stronger?
Or salt worms...
Quote from: WanderingOoze on July 12, 2016, 06:48:14 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 12, 2016, 06:41:57 PM
Quote from: Delirium on July 12, 2016, 02:22:57 PM
I think there can be a happy medium found between "little to no chance of real danger" and "nearly instantaneous death."
I think nearly every death in Armageddon is 'nearly instantaneous', at least in so far as it turning from handleable into death-driving; once I know death is going to happen, it doesn't matter whether it happens in two hits or from a slow-working poison. It happening with a reel instead of drawn out hunt after you is not such a concern to me. The danger of the salt flats -is- meks, aside from the classic new mistakes of not bringing water and running your mount to exhaustion.
If we just made everything more middling and removed that danger of death in such ways, the idea of promoting more danger for the reward is kind of a moot point, because we'd be countering it immediately by making it easier.
The 'compromise' I see is that these deposits are actually still surprisingly low risk for high reward. I'd like to see a new creature that is anakore-like that burrows in salt deposits and works like an ant lion, occasionally grabbing at prey wandering too close, and varying in degree of difficulty wildly, from chalton-like difficulty to tembo-like difficulty. Make them not visible with scan, but part of the deposit object in some way. Not present in all of them, but in some of them. Make salting alone just as risky as hunting abroad alone, and salt operations more of a thing.
Meks should remain a very real and present danger at all times on the flats. Not something that is just bad luck. The edge is safe, but low reward. That was the purpose of the entire thing, from what I read out of the post.
Kind of like those snakes that hide in certain plants ? But stronger?
Very much like that is what I had in mind, but it's also a very top-of-the-head idea and there may be huge problems with such a thing.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 12, 2016, 06:49:39 PM
Or salt worms...
Salt worms are pretty burly, I was thinking...smaller than that, and with a little more cunning, to increase some of the variety of fauna and types of danger. I've heard rumors that salt worms can be aggressive, but I've never had that verified through any experience of my own.
Basically, if we're looking for more things of middling difficulty, I was saying we'd have to add something new because as is, the difficulty levels of things found in the flats are very polar.
Salt wormlets, looking for those vital protein intake to spur their growth to so-large-don't-give-a-fuck-eat-sand-all-day size. Make them more aggressive and numerous but not quite so dangerous.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 12, 2016, 06:57:15 PM
Salt wormlets, looking for those vital protein intake to spur their growth to so-large-don't-give-a-fuck-eat-sand-all-day size. Make them more aggressive and numerous but not quite so dangerous.
And have a random chance to find Salt worm eggs in the patches too. A delicacy, but if kept in your inventory for too long, instead of spoiling. They Hatch!
Quote from: WanderingOoze on July 12, 2016, 07:00:25 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 12, 2016, 06:57:15 PM
Salt wormlets, looking for those vital protein intake to spur their growth to so-large-don't-give-a-fuck-eat-sand-all-day size. Make them more aggressive and numerous but not quite so dangerous.
And have a random chance to find Salt worm eggs in the patches too. A delicacy, but if kept in your inventory for too long, instead of spoiling. They Hatch!
They hatch into pets.
Sell them for even more!
Then you can start a Water of Life farm.
Quote from: Yam on July 12, 2016, 08:07:08 PM
Then you can start a Water of Life farm.
Only to be raided by Kurac and have it taken from you.
Quote from: Delirium on July 12, 2016, 02:22:57 PM
I think there can be a happy medium found between "little to no chance of real danger" and "nearly instantaneous death."
Yup.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 12, 2016, 06:41:57 PM
Quote from: Delirium on July 12, 2016, 02:22:57 PM
I think there can be a happy medium found between "little to no chance of real danger" and "nearly instantaneous death."
I think nearly every death in Armageddon is 'nearly instantaneous',
Nope.
Just add coded Ivory-Salt sickness. :P
Quote from: Norcal on July 12, 2016, 08:41:23 PM
Quote from: Delirium on July 12, 2016, 02:22:57 PM
I think there can be a happy medium found between "little to no chance of real danger" and "nearly instantaneous death."
Yup.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 12, 2016, 06:41:57 PM
Quote from: Delirium on July 12, 2016, 02:22:57 PM
I think there can be a happy medium found between "little to no chance of real danger" and "nearly instantaneous death."
I think nearly every death in Armageddon is 'nearly instantaneous',
Nope.
Quite the contribution there. I like how you cut out everything after the comma that actually qualifies the statement. Qualification of statements is kind of important, when taking quotes.
In lieu of what I suggested, I'd like to know your idea of the compromise that keeps the idea behind the whole 'more risk for more reward' intact. Because you seem intent on saying 'sweet, more reward, let's now reduce the risk' with no input beyond that.
Mekillots arn't fun and they add virtually nothing to the game. At best they're fodder for clans of massively skilled players and magickers.
Dying to a mekillot isn't fun and adds nothing to the game.
Sure they do. They add danger to the game. They add big baddies to the game. They add reason to not wander aimlessly through the salt flats to the game.
If we removed everything from the game that was not fun to die to, then I don't think we'd have much of a permadeath game.
Edit: I understand that you're saying you'd like things to not kill you quickly, but if this is the case we should also remove backstab, sap, bahamets, braxat, and pretty much anything capable of inflicting grievous wounds.
You can do all those things better than having a mega mob fuck you diagonally.
Just out of curiosity, Jingo...is your official position that you should never die without consent? That's kind of the stance you take on any discussion around death or risk.
The idea that no mobs should be able to jump you by surprise because of nw ne sw se is pretty much a pretty hefty request, there.
Edited to add: Okay, so this may be coming off as hostile, but I'm genuinely curious. I mean, it's right there in the post:
QuoteYou may find that the typical means of salt foraging (barely going into the salt flats) are no longer as efficient as they used to be. This is on purpose. Higher risks will yield greater rewards.
And this topic somehow got turned into 'Well, there's that big baddy on the salt flats and you're making us go into its territory'. I believe that's kind of the idea. I've yet to see anyone else offer anything else in terms of a solution to what you're discussing without going against that point of increasing the risk for good yields of salting (despite it being pretty easy, right now). So really, do we have to derail about this creature that has been the king of the salt flats for decades suddenly being bullshit because we made salting take you deeper in? Or at least propose something new that maintains the concept of the above quote?
Yeah that's my official position. With zero nuance. ::)
I think Baby Meks are what we're looking for. A baby mek is defeatable, dangerous, but defeatable, and capable of being outrun, but if a Mek sees you attacking it, you're fucked. Then again, I barely care. My chars are mostly meat shields anyway.
Honestly, some sort of trigger that can send out a "rumbles" to adjacent rooms in the grid would be nice for any large creature nearby. Even a salt-worm tunneling under you, into the room nearby, should send out a bit of an echo.
That, or add a pre-delay to foraging. I'd be completely alright with that.
The post-delay on SOME skills makes sense, but so far as "digging and sifting through things"... I think the pre-delay would make more sense, and solve at least AN issue with this.
Also, is anyone else super excited that SimDesert is coming to a zone near me? More rats in Allanak, adjustable spawn rates in the wilderness, reasons to not 'kill every creature because it spawned'. An ACTUALLY useful thing when dropping a spider nest, because spawns can be reduced for <x> time?
If you want a safe and easy way to make money, I submit that there are several other coded jobs that don't put you in close proximity to mekillots.
As awesome as this is....
The night the 3-4 am server time megalags I've been getting nightly since the 10th is about traced back to the time it was put in. I know the game had 1 other player in it a minute ago, and there were major disconnect issues now. So it might be something to double-check for unexpected effects.
It might be interacting unpredictably to cause it, or something else might be causing it, but the timing sure makes me think it was these changes.
Goodness. I'm not suggesting we remove mekillots.
I'm suggesting we keep them rare, add in mid-level threats, and not gang people with overlong post-delay.
I think they were probably talking to Jingo, who did kind of sort of imply the game would be better without mekillots.
Re: meks and other insta-kill things (spider nests, etc.): I'd like to see more mobs that fall somewhere between: (a) killyounow and (b) turaal pile! That is, gith-quality mobs: they will fuck you up down past the restore-hitpoints level on a good wallop (so you have to sleep or get back to a friend), but they aren't insta-kill.
Re: the risk vs. reward issue.
I think it's kind of a red herring. There are lots and lots of ways to get very well-rewarded (via lots of game coin) with little to no risk at all. Everyone starts out with seed money, and every crafter has access to start-up materials, and an NPC or two who is willing to buy finished goods. You don't have to leave the "safety" of your city/outpost to slowly amass a fortune, if that is truly your character's only goal in life and your only plan for your character to measure his "success" with (I would disagree that it's a measure of success but that's a philosophical issue, not a code issue).
If it's now incredibly dangerous for a grebber to greb, just to earn subsistance sids, then it should be monumentally dangerous for a clothworker to work cloth and earn thousands of sids in a relatively short period of time. It currently is not dangerous at all to get to that point. After that point it might become risky if you annoy the GMHs, but up until that point - no risk.
Idle thought re salt flats: You know what would be super cool? I do! There's some rooms in the desert -- certain dunes -- where you can 'see' things in all directions if you are standing on them. I'm not sure what the code is there, but what if most of the rooms in the salt flats were made to be like this?
To note; just because something doesn't pose a massive, instant-kill threat (i.e. mekillots) doesn't mean it won't create danger and difficulty.
A salter's day can easily be ruined by a lower-level threat even though they survive the encounter; salting should be dangerous but not necessarily suicide.
Imagine: finding the perfect salting spot, but being driven away from it by a few hungry whatchamacallits before you can get more than a few shovels worth of salt. Then you end up being unable to salt at the next spot because there's a mekillot lumbering close by. So by the time you get enough to cover the cost of water and stabling, it's already getting on dusk, and you've got to hurry inside.
Quote from: Lizzie on July 13, 2016, 10:49:32 AM
Re: the risk vs. reward issue.
I think it's kind of a red herring. There are lots and lots of ways to get very well-rewarded (via lots of game coin) with little to no risk at all. Everyone starts out with seed money, and every crafter has access to start-up materials, and an NPC or two who is willing to buy finished goods. You don't have to leave the "safety" of your city/outpost to slowly amass a fortune, if that is truly your character's only goal in life and your only plan for your character to measure his "success" with (I would disagree that it's a measure of success but that's a philosophical issue, not a code issue).
If it's now incredibly dangerous for a grebber to greb, just to earn subsistance sids, then it should be monumentally dangerous for a clothworker to work cloth and earn thousands of sids in a relatively short period of time. It currently is not dangerous at all to get to that point. After that point it might become risky if you annoy the GMHs, but up until that point - no risk.
I disagree. Skilled labor should be less dangerous or taxing or whatever than unskilled labor that anyone regardless of guild and subguild can perform.
I've been chased and attacked by meks quite a bit. In groups and as a lone grabber. Still never died to one. Came very close once, but survived.
This is just an anecdotal evidence type post and doesn't add much I suppose. But, my point is... personally. I've never been a victim of this mek = instadeath phenomenon.
Quote from: WanderingOoze on July 13, 2016, 11:57:06 AM
This is just an anecdotal evidence type post and doesn't add much I suppose. But, my point is... personally. I've never been a victim of this mek = instadeath phenomenon.
I had a character that was. But...it was also Internet Lag Day.
You run east.
You LAG.
Mantis-head.
Skellebain is a day ruiner out on the salt flats.
Quote from: nauta on July 13, 2016, 11:16:13 AM
Idle thought re salt flats: You know what would be super cool? I do! There's some rooms in the desert -- certain dunes -- where you can 'see' things in all directions if you are standing on them. I'm not sure what the code is there, but what if most of the rooms in the salt flats were made to be like this?
star dune, best dune
Biggest dune is best dune.
Quote from: Beethoven on July 13, 2016, 09:32:42 AM
I think they were probably talking to Jingo, who did kind of sort of imply the game would be better without mekillots.
I think they're cool thematically at least. But for a functional perspective see my previous posts.
Quote from: Rokal on July 13, 2016, 01:17:36 PM
Skellebain is a day ruiner out on the salt flats.
This is an example of a function I like.
QuoteA salter's day can easily be ruined by a lower-level threat even though they survive the encounter; salting should be dangerous but not necessarily suicide.
...it -isn't- suicide. It's in no way shape or form suicide right now. It is not now 'You will have to run into mekillots to use salt deposits.' It's nowhere near that degree. As I said in my post, things are right now actually relatively easy. The deposits are common and all over the place and SimDesert does not seem to put them closer to spawning places.
That's my entire point. The discussion went to this place that said that it was now far too dangerous to salt, when the encounter that was discussed is still relatively rare. Mekillots already -are- rare on the salt flats. Mekillots already -are- relatively easy to avoid. Yes, they can surprise you, it does happen, and it does make that sudden -shot- of adrenaline, but saying this needs to be toned down because the new way makes you go deeper into the flats is, to me, utter nonsense.
Danger is exactly that. Danger. More scorpion-like effects is not danger, it's a nuisance. I imagine the number of deaths from scorpion-hood since they were added east of the city can be counted on two hands. That's not dangerous. If the point of the distribution was to make you journey deeper into the flats for greater reward, then making the deeper parts of the flats safer is counter-intuitive...IN PARTICULAR until we find some other danger to be had there. As I noted in my posts, the only other real danger of going deeper into the flats is forgetting water and getting lost out there and exhausting your mount, or, if you are brand new out of chargen, the occasional scrab. Hence why I presented an idea that is less dangerous than meks, but directly tied into salting, to encourage the same mentality that should be had for hunting, i.e. groups are good.
But thinning out Meks without adding in something that is still -actually- dangerous is completely unnecessary, and another example of 'I hate dying in this game. We should make it easier to not die.' That is an argument I will usually stand against, unless it's a shitty code mechanic instead of a code mechanic that is present in almost every zone of the mud except for the ones that have been made 'safe'.
Hell. If nothing else, get your salter coalition together to pool money and pay the Byn to search and destroy so that your coalition can go out and mass homicide the salt deposits. Give people things to do instead of insisting that solo has to be completely manageable out there.
QuoteIf it's now incredibly dangerous for a grebber to greb, just to earn subsistance sids, then it should be monumentally dangerous for a clothworker to work cloth and earn thousands of sids in a relatively short period of time.
As noted, the danger is actually far less certain than it's being made to sound. It -is- greatly compounded if you decide to go deep-salting in a huge storm, but I don't consider that against logic, either. It should be noted, though, that your comparison is to someone who actually buys materials and tests to find things that bring profit and spam sells to merchants. They never leave the city. If your basis of comparison is to make inside the city and outside the city of equal danger, then I think we need to go back to our drawing board.
Oh, okay. You're still operating under the flawed assumption that I wanted to thin out or remove mekillots, which I don't want to do.
What I want to do is increase danger in the salt flats but make it of a more interesting sort than "more megabeasts" or "longer post-delay you can do nothing about".
My primary objection was to the idea of adding a longer post-delay to salting. My primary suggestion is to shift toward delays being a) able to be interrupted, and b) BEFORE the result of your action.
i.e.,
You begin grebbing.
<<loooooong delay that you can interrupt with OH SHIT FLEE if need be>>
You find a piece of salt and pick it up.
<<NO delay!>>
So I suppose you're conflating "nuisance" with "pointless" where I'm saying "nuisance" adds a complexity and danger level to the flats that are composed of more than a/b scenarios of life/death. Scenarios that make you move through the flats instead of camp in one spot and salt until you're rich, while keeping it as a viable role, if not nearly as simple and profitable.
Coding in salt-flat sickness is a great idea. So is the chance of spawning immature salt worms (that could possibly ruin the rest of the deposit, forcing you to move).
We could just raid people and make it more dangerous/interesting that way.
Quote from: manonfire on July 13, 2016, 01:26:28 PM
Quote from: nauta on July 13, 2016, 11:16:13 AM
Idle thought re salt flats: You know what would be super cool? I do! There's some rooms in the desert -- certain dunes -- where you can 'see' things in all directions if you are standing on them. I'm not sure what the code is there, but what if most of the rooms in the salt flats were made to be like this?
star dune, best dune
Suggestion:
>watch all
You begin watching in all cardinal directions.Does not include up, down, or out.
Invokes substantial penalty to watch, but results are size-based, so something mekillot or bahamet-sized would be impossible to miss.
QuoteOh, okay. You're still operating under the flawed assumption that I wanted to thin out or remove mekillots, which I don't want to do.
You're correct, I used your post to respond to that because it kind of came in the middle of it. Whoops. But you did make a good springboard for my post and what I wanted to say!
QuoteSo I suppose you're conflating "nuisance" with "pointless" where I'm saying "nuisance" adds a complexity and danger level to the flats that are composed of more than a/b scenarios of life/death. Scenarios that make you move through the flats instead of camp in one spot and salt until you're rich, while keeping it as a viable role, if not nearly as simple and profitable.
It isn't that nuisances don't have their place. As I've said in other posts, sometimes 'nuisances' are meant for exactly that...the middle ground between easy and death. However, my particular take on the change wasn't that they wanted people to make less money doing it (as filling it up with nuisances tends to do, at least for me), but they -did- want them to risk more for it (i.e. You're going to have to deal with more than scorpions and scrab). This is probably purely a difference of opinion on what we want the end result to be. For me, I'd like salting to be less of a solo activity, and still very profitable, but something that you'd actually see small groups and perhaps even middle-sized crews working on.
The change allowed it become viable for the solo salter to make a living, albeit not a great one, in the low-risk environment, while grouping up would lead to much greater profit. But not grouping up was probably going to result in your death at some point. Hence why I like the mekillots...but you do as well, so I won't go there again while quoting your post even though it's something to address in the thread.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 13, 2016, 04:53:05 PM
We could just raid people and make it more dangerous/interesting that way.
Would love to. I can only play one character at a time, though!
Just to address a few of the concerns posted here:
- Mekillots are related to, but entirely separate from salt foraging as a coded and scripted mechanism and will be handled separately.
- There's no plan to change the delay on digging from patches (which is the same as mining and using material deposits in general - about 3 seconds).
- This most likely has nothing to do with any experienced lag. The script takes less than a second to go through every room in the game - we're talking about an area that perhaps comprises 2-3% of the game's rooms, if that.
- Risk vs. reward: Grebbing is inherently dangerous, crafting within the walls is not. While there are no plans for this to change, it is possible crafting will rely more on grebbers in the future.
- Tweaks and adjustments are still being made on spawn rates on the patches. They are not meant to be common or spawn on the outermost edges of the Salt Flats.
In terms of risk vs reward:
This mostly hurts assassins who:
1. Don't roll a crafter sub-guild
2. Don't join a clan
3. Do the above+ are elves
Most other classes eventually find other ways of making decent coin that don't require spending all day foraging anyways. Slightly less so for warriors but going a bit farther is less of an issue thanks to shields. I think people that roll these classes, will have to consider other modest options for a while such as foraging clay. And of course eventually just kill someone just to steal the boots off their corpse.
Coincidentally killing someone just so you can pay your rent is a damn good reason for murder.
Quote from: Dresan on July 13, 2016, 07:52:48 PM
In terms of risk vs reward:
This mostly hurts assassins who:
1. Don't roll a crafter sub-guild
2. Don't join a clan
3. Do the above+ are elves
Most other classes eventually find other ways of making decent coin that don't require spending all day foraging anyways. Slightly less so for warriors but going a bit farther is less of an issue thanks to shields. I think people that roll these classes, will have to consider other modest options for a while such as foraging clay. And of course eventually just kill someone just to steal the boots off their corpse.
Coincidentally killing someone just so you can pay your rent is a damn good reason for murder.
Just putting this out here: the Salt Yards sit on some rather long and comparatively empty (of soldiers) roads.
Disregard.
I wonder if it's possible to create a command that will hint on big sized creatures in diagonal rooms.
something like
survey
There is something huge nearby/far/very far from you. It doesnt 'have' to tell which direction if it's hard to code, although that would be nice. Even just general linear direction would be nice. But just the mere fact that there is a presence in 'some' direction is enough for the PCs to get wise and grow at the very least alert. That's the biggest thing about Mekillots/Bahamet that I dont like. They are not entities that you can possibly fail to see and walk right into.
Quote from: Nergal on July 13, 2016, 06:25:05 PM
- This most likely has nothing to do with any experienced lag. The script takes less than a second to go through every room in the game - we're talking about an area that perhaps comprises 2-3% of the game's rooms, if that.
I more meant that with the timing of the implementation and the new nightly lag spikes, something -already- in the game, that may not be present outside the live game port, might be messing with something in the script funny somehow, or causing some other unforseen issue.
Then again, I'm no coder, and the timing could just be coincidence. Who knows? (probs the coders, :D )
I would love staff to post up some numbers on how many people died to whatever.
carru = 12379
tok 2388
raider = 9088
whatever, whatever
cause I personally have come across more carru'd, tok'd, yompar'd, random hidden npc then I've seen met/mek stomped.
As for having to go deeper into the salt to go forage, I hate the idea, I like all being comfy safe knowing that I can run from my salting spot to the gates, on my speedy mount/boots. yet if I need to I'll be out there, getting ready to outrun a mek.
lag sucks yeah I know lost several toons do to it fighting things that people laugh at. If your basing not liking this do solely upon the fact a met can kill you in one/two/three hits I'm sorry whats the difference between getting reel locked every bloody round by gith/carru/uber tok/raptor/tarantula/beetle? in the end the outcome is the same, your rolling up a new toon.
bet all carru
My money's on twitchy.
Quote from: Yam on July 14, 2016, 11:27:37 AM
bet all carru
This will work if we only are counting tribals :(
Quote from: Clavis on July 14, 2016, 11:14:23 AM
As for having to go deeper into the salt to go forage, I hate the idea, I like all being comfy safe knowing that I can run from my salting spot to the gates, on my speedy mount/boots. yet if I need to I'll be out there, getting ready to outrun a mek.
Which you still can do. They didn't say "no more foraging unless deep in salt". They said if you go to the edges, there will be less variety and less chance at a fortune being made.
I highly suggest finding a friend, or hiring someone to keep an eye on you if you want to go deeper in. Maybe it'll be worth the cost, if you can find yourself a nice little spot that doesn't seem too busy,
Quote from: Riev on July 14, 2016, 05:21:35 PM
Quote from: Clavis on July 14, 2016, 11:14:23 AM
As for having to go deeper into the salt to go forage, I hate the idea, I like all being comfy safe knowing that I can run from my salting spot to the gates, on my speedy mount/boots. yet if I need to I'll be out there, getting ready to outrun a mek.
Which you still can do. They didn't say "no more foraging unless deep in salt". They said if you go to the edges, there will be less variety and less chance at a fortune being made.
I highly suggest finding a friend, or hiring someone to keep an eye on you if you want to go deeper in. Maybe it'll be worth the cost, if you can find yourself a nice little spot that doesn't seem too busy,
yeah, that's more then likely what I would do, either go at the edges, and not make as much, or hire some muscle, or find another to go in with.
Can you see salt deposits from other rooms?
Quote from: Jihelu on July 14, 2016, 09:50:59 PM
Can you see salt deposits from other rooms?
It'd be cool if this related to 'scan' somehow.
Quote from: Jihelu on July 14, 2016, 09:50:59 PM
Can you see salt deposits from other rooms?
Yes.Find out IG.
I'm pretty sure you can see salt deposits from another room. They show up looking like a sand dune, or something beneath the sand. I forget the exact syntax.
Seriously, don't listen to me.
It's reasonable to assume that you can see salt patches from quite a distance, as the Salt Flats are, well, flat... and visibility is pretty good as long as it's not stormy.