Here's the idea:
o Make 'sleep' work just like 'rest' in terms of restoring hit points. (That is, after you dip below a certain threshold, you can't restore hit points just like with 'rest'.)
o Add a Chirurgeon NPC in Allanak, RSV, Morins, Luirs, Blackwing Outpost, Cenyr and the Mul Outpost -- (maybe also Menos and Yaroch?).
o Add a Chirurgeon NPC to each clan compound/camp.
o Chirurgeon NPC charges two small for a bandage skill attempt on you; it is free for those in a clan.
o Chirurgeon NPC has advanced bandaging.
The net effect, I hope, is that people will, when wounded, seek out a PC with bandaging:
- to save money -- also encourages people to carry two small on their persons.
- to save a trip back to a civilized centre and the risk involved in that (while wounded!)
- in case of severe wounds, to avoid the risk of a merely 'advanced' bandage skill roll vs. a master (from a PC).
I also hope it is fair to off-peakers too.
(Plus, I find the magick of sleep kind of odd.)
I like the idea of NPC healers. I don't like the idea of sleep-healing. +1 to this idea.
I like.
I dig this!
So for those of us who like living in the wilderness, we would be forced to join a clan to get access to healing? Or forced to truck back to town half-dead to find a PC who can bandage us?
If you want to slow down sleep-healing and make it take a little longer, I'm okay with that. I would not be pleased to see it removed at all.
This is a change, as described, which only looks at one playstyle and would screw over a lot of others.
Never forget the golden rule - Playability > realism.
I'd like to add that there are already a LOT of "wait-gates" in this game where I am logged on but not playing and not enjoying my time. Usually I'm tabbed out to another window and posting on the discussion board, reading about some other game, and only tabbing back to the client to see if the game state has changed to the point where I can play again.
For those who don't have access to 2 small at all times or your miracle NPC healer, it would simply add a really big wait-gate.
It's completely playable. If anything, it makes the bandaging skill far more useful.
You don't need to truck back to town. You do need to apply some medical attention to your gushing wounds, whether that be through salves or bandages. You're fully capable of fixing yourself.
A change like this would also make playing a physician for indie groups a far more rewarding experience.
Quote from: Miradus on June 17, 2016, 12:55:52 PM
So for those of us who like living in the wilderness, we would be forced to join a clan to get access to healing? Or forced to truck back to town half-dead to find a PC who can bandage us?
You'd have to have the bandage skill, a friend with the bandage skill, or find a centre of civilization -- but notice that RSV, Morins, Cenyr, Blackwing Outpost are on that list. The chirurgeon would bandage people not in clans; clans just get it for cheap.
So if you want to make a true hermit, you'd probably want to invest in a guild/sub-guild with bandaging.
If you put in a goddamn poll and stopped trying to outpace my post count, I would +1 this, Nauta.
Were this a change to be implemented, I would feel about this game the same as I do about games that don't save your equipment. I can't imagine I'm alone in that thought.
+1
Quote from: TheWanderer on June 17, 2016, 01:00:48 PM
It's completely playable. If anything, it makes the bandaging skill far more useful.
You don't need to truck back to town. You do need to apply some medical attention to your gushing wounds, whether that be through salves or bandages. You're fully capable of fixing yourself.
A change like this would also make playing a physician for indie groups a far more rewarding experience.
Yeah, ask Staff about the "bleeding" code. That didn't last very long at all and was pretty much, and I quote Staff, "universally hated".
I normally don't post on the main boards, but I have to say ideas like this really scare me. I see a lot of ideas that would take away interaction between PCs and automate them just because. I think being badly injured is in the very least a potential scene and in certain instances a minor plot.
I really think we should be looking for reasons to interact with each other more and more, not taking away possible avenues of interaction.
How does sleeping off your hp loss let you interact with others?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 17, 2016, 01:43:33 PM
How does sleeping off your hp loss let you interact with others?
Besides an easy target for theft and murder?
That's really not the point I'm making. You can do that now, but that's a player choice. If you don't want to be bothered with a PC, that's always an option. The point is, why add something that would take away a possible interaction? To me this is a case of subtraction by addition.
Is not wanting to interact with others under forced and imposed circumstances a bad thing?
There are plenty of times I log on and just want to kill a gortok and cook up some carru steaks off in a canyon somewhere. I don't want to chat, I don't want to see anyone else, and I don't care to interact.
If you want to implement this sort of a change, then completely revamp the entire hit point and combat system first. Fix it so it's more like adventure mode in Dwarf Fortress where you can receive wounds of varying degrees to your limbs or torso and they may or may not need medical care after that.
Just a raw number of hp that goes down is not conducive at all to the kind of change you're wanting to make.
Quote from: Malken on June 17, 2016, 01:39:11 PM
Quote from: TheWanderer on June 17, 2016, 01:00:48 PM
It's completely playable. If anything, it makes the bandaging skill far more useful.
You don't need to truck back to town. You do need to apply some medical attention to your gushing wounds, whether that be through salves or bandages. You're fully capable of fixing yourself.
A change like this would also make playing a physician for indie groups a far more rewarding experience.
Yeah, ask Staff about the "bleeding" code. That didn't last very long at all and was pretty much, and I quote Staff, "universally hated".
It's not the same script. Placing the cap merely stops you from sleeping off getting stabbed through the gut and instead puts some actual merit into medical skills and supplies (that aren't tablets) when traveling.
Once you're past the cap, you'll recover like normal.
If the price in cities is an issue, it could just as easily be lowered to a cool hundred.
Quote from: LucildaHunta on June 17, 2016, 01:40:03 PM
I really think we should be looking for reasons to interact with each other more and more, not taking away possible avenues of interaction.
wat. this would have the exact opposite effect.
Quote from: TheWanderer on June 17, 2016, 01:59:38 PM
It's not the same script. Placing the cap merely stops you from sleeping off getting stabbed through the gut and ...
That's my point. I didn't get stabbed through the gut. My hp on the prompt line went from 101 to 55.
If I get stabbed in the gut or a broken arm or a lacerated tendon in the knee then I can see perhaps seeking medical attention.
But I didn't. I went from 101 to 55. Neither the game code NOR ANOTHER PLAYER can tell me that I got stabbed through the gut based on the raw hp number dropping.
It's entirely up to me and my decision as to the extent of my injuries. Maybe it's just a lot of scrapes, bites, and bruises.
You're supposed to take your current amount and figure it realistically - limitations of the current code. You don't just look at 40hp and go, "Well, that was a nasty scrape."
If your character can't heal, it's safe to assume he's taken enough damage to be wounded. Don't just shrug it off and take a nap to miraculously make a full recovery.
Quote from: LucildaHunta on June 17, 2016, 01:40:03 PM
I normally don't post on the main boards, but I have to say ideas like this really scare me. I see a lot of ideas that would take away interaction between PCs and automate them just because. I think being badly injured is in the very least a potential scene and in certain instances a minor plot.
I really think we should be looking for reasons to interact with each other more and more, not taking away possible avenues of interaction.
I'm a little confused. The goal of the proposal is to increase interaction and RP opportunities (without screwing over off-peakers). So, let's use an example, to help clarify a bit:
I'm out hunting scrab west of Allanak. I get mega-crunched and drop below the threshold where 'rest' will restore my hps. What do I do?
Option a: Rush back to Allanak, go into my apartment, and sleep. (No PC interaction.)
Option b: Rush over to a spot in the wilderness I'm pretty sure no other PCs will get me and sleep. (No to minimal PC interaction.)
Option c: Find a PC with bandage. (Interaction!)
Option d: Have the bandage skill. (No interaction.)
Option e: Rush back to a centre of civilization and find an NPC chirurgeon. (No to minimal PC interaction.)
I'd like to eliminate Options (a) and (b) from the list and encourage Option (c). By having the chirurgeon charge a nominal fee, this would give people pause and seek out a PC; by having it in a civilized area, this might also give people pause and seek out a PC instead (raider types, for instance).
So somehow you've latched on to "pc interaction" as the causus belli for this change, but in your original proposal you had an NPC doing the healing.
I suspect the argument will continue to evolve without my input, so I'll sum up my argument as this:
Forced interaction is bad.
Quote from: Miradus on June 17, 2016, 02:15:13 PM
So somehow you've latched on to "pc interaction" as the causus belli for this change, but in your original proposal you had an NPC doing the healing.
Did you read the bottom portion where she listed her hopes for the change, which were primarily aimed at increasing PC interactions?
Quote from: Miradus on June 17, 2016, 02:15:13 PM
I suspect the argument will continue to evolve without my input, so I'll sum up my argument as this:
Forced interaction is bad.
It's hardly forced. You can take it upon yourself to learn a medical technique beyond a quick nap or find an NPC. I, personally, adore it because it adds value to PC physicians (which is basically zilch at the moment). If there were an actual reason to play one, like this, I might pick a guild focused on mundane healing.
Woah, I see. This conversation is moving quick. Ha ha! I relish a good challenge!
ha! You were wrong, Miradus! I did indeed include your input!
I love this idea, but I like Miradus' idea too.
What if both rest and sleep healed people (outside of combat)? -sit healing extremely slowly -rest healing very slowly and -sleep healing slowly. Where as the bandage skill would alleviate these ailments in a split moment. - or maybe even just accelerate the healing factor greatly depending on the skill?
**edit to add - by longer, I mean like if you're in a tremendous sandstorm on an extremely hot day with poor endurance trying to recover stamina slow**
maybe even... put a cap on how much you can heal from "sitting", "resting" and "sleeping", but I can't really imagine a code that would allow - well. It would be a really complicated code that allowed sitting to only recover 20hp and resting to recover 40hp and sleeping 100% << this is asking a lot, though.
I would also like to see stamina return while standing, but at a much slower rate. - but another conversation for another time.
Quote from: nauta on June 17, 2016, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: LucildaHunta on June 17, 2016, 01:40:03 PM
I normally don't post on the main boards, but I have to say ideas like this really scare me. I see a lot of ideas that would take away interaction between PCs and automate them just because. I think being badly injured is in the very least a potential scene and in certain instances a minor plot.
I really think we should be looking for reasons to interact with each other more and more, not taking away possible avenues of interaction.
I'm a little confused. The goal of the proposal is to increase interaction and RP opportunities (without screwing over off-peakers). So, let's use an example, to help clarify a bit:
I'm out hunting scrab west of Allanak. I get mega-crunched and drop below the threshold where 'rest' will restore my hps. What do I do?
Option a: Rush back to Allanak, go into my apartment, and sleep. (No PC interaction.)
Option b: Rush over to a spot in the wilderness I'm pretty sure no other PCs will get me and sleep. (No to minimal PC interaction.)
Option c: Find a PC with bandage. (Interaction!)
Option d: Have the bandage skill. (No interaction.)
Option e: Rush back to a centre of civilization and find an NPC chirurgeon. (No to minimal PC interaction.)
I'd like to eliminate Options (a) and (b) from the list and encourage Option (c). By having the chirurgeon charge a nominal fee, this would give people pause and seek out a PC; by having it in a civilized area, this might also give people pause and seek out a PC instead (raider types, for instance).
I got that from your idea. I'm even sure something like that is doable by the code. What I'm saying is and has been exactly what you said for option e in parentheses (minimal PC interaction). I get that some people want to log in and hunt something and interact as little as possible, then log out. I feel like an addition like this would only encourage that more, when it happens far too often now. There are skilled pc's in the game right now.
This is what I mean when I say player choice. You could seek out a PC with the bandage skill now.
Let me put it another way. Ranger Hugh Glass goes out and hunts a carru because he's Hugh Glass, that's what he does. Carru proceeds to get some good hits in and well Hugh Glass isn't as Hugh Glass as he thought, because he has 20hps now. It's getting late and the night is dark and full of terrors. He goes to the npc healer, gets patched up, sun up he's looking for another carru.
My point is, he could go sleep it off and do this now. He also can go into a tavern and ask for help now. Player choice. But why would we want to add something, that, even by your own admission would be another avenue for non PC interaction?
If we made healing harder than it is now, it would be a good idea to have medics handy. And we would also make those medics difficult or ... not as good as PC medics like they use dirty bandages on purpose or they don't wash their hands first or they overcharge or something...
If healing were harder than it is now it might even inspire a new sort of PC run guild to appear. Of healers and such. (non-magickal) of course.
I like the idea of increasing PC-to-PC interaction. When a lot of your playtime has 7 other players online, it sucks to be pressured towards it, though, and getting your healing through an NPC dispenser just feels... more boring than it would add fun?
And a slightly code-intensive, but fairly fun brainstorm idea:
- Another type of bandage, wearable, can be applied by anyone without risk. Only when it is worn, can you sleep to regain HP.
- Each point of below-limit HP you gain wears the bandage out.
- PCs with the bandage skill can maintain their bandages, like armor repair works (including fail chance).
- PCs with the bandagemaking skill can make new ones (obviously).
- Each PC starts the game with a low-quality bandage (50 HP worth of healing or so, if that).
- Clans could have an NPC that dispenses these, cheap or free of charge, as a perk.
What this would do:
- Increase interaction potential with PC medics, especially as a preventative measure: medic and player don't need to have the same playtimes, but it's beneficial to find each other at some point.
- In rough situations, make a medic useful but not vital, especially if you forgot to bring medical supplies (just like forgetting to bring climbing supplies when riding with the Byn near the Shield wall makes ropemakers useful...).
- Let someone new to the game make a mistake or two without them going broke for healing expenses.
I'm not sure this is a
good idea, but if it inspires a better one, I have done well enough.
If the desire is to make PC healers more viable ... then make them more viable.
How about giving an apothecary the ability to make some potions which will not only give you the ability to heal current wounds, but enhance your healing ability for the next 24 hours?
Or having a PC healer in the room with you grants a bonus to your recovery time?
The reason nobody goes to a PC healer is because beyond making some bandages their healing skills are shitty.
Make them less shitty. Don't force me to go hang out with their shittiness.
Worried about balance?
Uberhealing requires hard-to-acquire ingredients, not just a couple of bimbal leaves.
As someone who has played a few surgeon-grade healers over the years... this doesn't sound like it'll give more interaction.
The biggest problem with PC healers of a non-magickal variety is everyone is terrified of that failure message. I've lost unreal chunks of HP (equal to 'very hard' and above hits) from someone failing a bandage attempt and most scenarios where my PC has been out with a group and had to do some triage, most characters refuse bandage attempts and prefer to sleep it off - or even just keep riding with 40hp, rather than risk losing more to the vagaries of the ancient bandage code.
Worse, the one thing PCs always go looking for a healer over is the one thing even a maxed-master level bandage can't heal, mortally wounded targets. I've fiddled with every piece of medical item available in the game and have never found a combination that'll let me even attempt to bandage someone in a mortally wounded state. It seems to require magick healing full stop, further diminishing the point of being known as a reliable and talented healer.
Even if you added an NPC with 'advanced' bandaging, no one is going to use it because of the inherent risk of failure even with a maxed-master bandage skill. If you removed sleep healing in combination, all you're going to get is a lot of very, very, very frustrated players -- especially off-peak players.
There are at least three healers in-game right now that are both thematically talented healers and have the coded backing for it if people were really interested in some healer RP. However, my experience is most people would rather have a nap and ignore the three vicious bites to the neck that dropped them to 20~ HP, so they can go back to hunting in the morning or otherwise avoid having to miss out on impromptu RPT events, like riding out to kill yet another mekillot lured to the gates.
Really, I'm fine with it being an opt-in experience and don't think it needs to be changed.
Removing sleep healing and adding in an automated NPC seems like a lot of effort, hassle and frustration for absolutely no gain at all.
If we want to make a change to encourage people to go to PC healers, adjust the bandage skill to only deal damage on a critical failure, rather than every single fail. I'd also look at the consistency of HP healed relative to both the bandage being used and the skill of the person using them. In my experience, I've healed 20-30 HP with a scrap of cloth at journeyman, only to heal all of 8 HP with peak quality bandages at master.
The lack of consistency and reliability of the bandage skill (along with a hefty dose of player disinterest/fear) is the major reason PC healers are so under utilized. Some refinement to the skill will likely entice more interest from players and thus, make being a talented healer as valued as it ought to be.
til Chirurgeon is a real word.
French for surgeon = Chirurgien.
English for chirurgien = Surgeon.
Chirurgien + Surgeon = Chirurgeon.
The more you leeeeeeeearn.
Quote from: Vwest on June 17, 2016, 06:12:15 PM
As someone who has played a few surgeon-grade healers over the years... this doesn't sound like it'll give more interaction.
The biggest problem with PC healers of a non-magickal variety is everyone is terrified of that failure message. I've lost unreal chunks of HP (equal to 'very hard' and above hits) from someone failing a bandage attempt and most scenarios where my PC has been out with a group and had to do some triage, most characters refuse bandage attempts and prefer to sleep it off - or even just keep riding with 40hp, rather than risk losing more to the vagaries of the ancient bandage code.
Worse, the one thing PCs always go looking for a healer over is the one thing even a maxed-master level bandage can't heal, mortally wounded targets. I've fiddled with every piece of medical item available in the game and have never found a combination that'll let me even attempt to bandage someone in a mortally wounded state. It seems to require magick healing full stop, further diminishing the point of being known as a reliable and talented healer.
Even if you added an NPC with 'advanced' bandaging, no one is going to use it because of the inherent risk of failure even with a maxed-master bandage skill. If you removed sleep healing in combination, all you're going to get is a lot of very, very, very frustrated players -- especially off-peak players.
There are at least three healers in-game right now that are both thematically talented healers and have the coded backing for it if people were really interested in some healer RP. However, my experience is most people would rather have a nap and ignore the three vicious bites to the neck that dropped them to 20~ HP, so they can go back to hunting in the morning or otherwise avoid having to miss out on impromptu RPT events, like riding out to kill yet another mekillot lured to the gates.
Really, I'm fine with it being an opt-in experience and don't think it needs to be changed.
Removing sleep healing and adding in an automated NPC seems like a lot of effort, hassle and frustration for absolutely no gain at all.
If we want to make a change to encourage people to go to PC healers, adjust the bandage skill to only deal damage on a critical failure, rather than every single fail. I'd also look at the consistency of HP healed relative to both the bandage being used and the skill of the person using them. In my experience, I've healed 20-30 HP with a scrap of cloth at journeyman, only to heal all of 8 HP with peak quality bandages at master.
The lack of consistency and reliability of the bandage skill (along with a hefty dose of player disinterest/fear) is the major reason PC healers are so under utilized. Some refinement to the skill will likely entice more interest from players and thus, make being a talented healer as valued as it ought to be.
all the things vwest said
I agree that bandage is pretty screwy. As it stands even someone with master bandage can accidentally kill someone at <10 hp. It's safer in all cases to just sleep it off.
I'd rather see the bandage skill looked at than have NPC bandagers put in game and sleep regen removed.
Quote from: Malken on June 17, 2016, 06:33:42 PM
til Chirurgeon is a real word.
French for surgeon = Chirurgien.
English for chirurgien = Surgeon.
Chirurgien + Surgeon = Chirurgeon.
The more you leeeeeeeearn.
Tell that to John Knox.
Pls stop making bandage fails hurt people and just break the bandage.
Same with poison fails.
While I have yet to experience all the negatives of the bandage code, I can say that I have run into the problems identified. Especially the mortally wounded thing.
I can agree that a change to the bandage skill in itself would be more important than any other change, even if I would still love to see some more changes to how bandages and healing works.