Armageddon General Discussion Board

I have noticed there are quite a few people lately who are hanging out with witches, and no I don't mean oash as those guys sometimes have to.

This bothers me, unless they are all secret witches with a gemmer confidant.

I guess the only way to stop that is to start defaming them and making their lives horrible.

(Mostly joking, but where is that witch hatred/fear we are all supposed to have?)

PS. Or is it fine now to go make friends with a witch and say gimme use of your magickal powers!

You should defame them and make their lives horrible.

Good luck doing that when the witches in question are backed by Oash and/or Templars.

I once had a staff-ran NPC ask my character in The Gaj why they weren't beating up a gemmer at the bar. (I was a mercenary type and it wouldn't be out of character. The NPC was also a mercenary type.)

I informed them, "Because they are backed by Oash, as most of the gemmed are, and fucking with them is the equivalent of fucking with a Oashi noble, because that's what will end up happening if I do.".

Oh....

That's as far as that conversation got.

Messing with the gemmed, or gemmed lovers is the same as spitting on a Oashi noble or a Templar MOST of the time.

That is why they don't get fucked with.

The gemmed liking you or having a reason to like you can sometimes give Oashi nobles or Templars a reason to also like you. So you want to gain their favor, not scorn them.

It is what it is. That is the game. Has been for many years.

Uh-oh!  Here we go again!  And we just had this thread which I thought ended with universal praise for the witch hating in town!  

My advice, as always, is that if you see repeated behaviour like that that defies belief or breaks immersion, a friendly player complaint -- or a heads up to staff in your next character report if the word 'complaint' scares you off -- doesn't hurt.   (Bear in mind you may only be seeing part of the picture.)

I'll go out on a limb and say that almost everyone (even Wizturbo's magickal faction) would be in agreement that we should play according to the documentation with respect to our fear and hatred of magick and magickers, and that if you play against documentation -- that is you play an exception to the rule -- this should be for a good reason and you should try to balance it out by playing to the documentation with respect to other things, e.g., elf hatred or whatever.

One thing that is sometimes important is the virtual world.  In my view, if you play against documentation (which is fine, provided a reason) you might want to include some reaction from the virtual world to reinforce to others (especially newbies) that what you are doing is contrary to the status quo -- e.g., include uneasy, uncomfortable, or even hostile looks from others at the bar if you buy that gemmed a drink.  Just thinking it or feeling it without some sort of outward sign might convince staff, but other players (especially newbies) won't know.

Quote from: Desertman on January 25, 2016, 12:02:27 PM
You should defame them and make their lives horrible.

Good luck doing that when the witches in question are backed by Oash and/or Templars.

I once had a staff-ran NPC ask my character in The Gaj why they weren't beating up a gemmer at the bar. (I was a mercenary type and it wouldn't be out of character. The NPC was also a mercenary type.)

I informed them, "Because they are backed by Oash, as most of the gemmed are, and fucking with them is the equivalent of fucking with a Oashi noble, because that's what will end up happening if I do.".

Oh....

That's as far as that conversation got.

Messing with the gemmed, or gemmed lovers is the same as spitting on a Oashi noble or a Templar MOST of the time.

That is why they don't get fucked with.

The gemmed liking you or having a reason to like you can sometimes give Oashi nobles or Templars a reason to also like you. So you want to gain their favor, not scorn them.

It is what it is. That is the game. Has been for many years.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing magickers, but I always was hesitant when someone would be cool foraging with me anywhere near them, or have long conversations with me at private tables.

I always assumed it was a scheme to get my gem for their collection of black gems...

But it seems like something has veered far off the documentation lately.

Quote from: nauta on January 25, 2016, 12:08:39 PM
Uh-oh!  Here we go again!  And we just had this thread which I thought ended with universal praise for the witch hating in town! 

My advice, as always, is that if you see repeated behaviour like that that defies belief or breaks immersion, a friendly player complaint doesn't hurt.   (Bear in mind you may only be seeing part of the picture.)

I'll go out on a limb and say that almost everyone (even Wizturbo's magickal faction) would be in agreement that we should play according to the documentation with respect to our fear and hatred of magick and magickers, and that if you play against documentation -- that is you play an exception to the rule -- this should be for a good reason and you should try to balance it out by playing to the documentation with respect to other things, e.g., elf hatred or whatever.

One thing that is sometimes important is the virtual world.  In my view, if you play against documentation (which is fine, provided a reason) you might want to include some reaction from the virtual world to reinforce to others (especially newbies) that what you are doing is contrary to the status quo -- e.g., include uneasy, uncomfortable, or even hostile looks from others at the bar if you buy that gemmed a drink.

My only concern if you play against the grain of the fear for whatever manufsctured reason, then what's to stop everyone from suddenly coming to the rationalization that having a water witch around is a good thing?

Or that having someone who can make you invisible is a great thing?

The distortion goes on forever...

One of the problems with not having a playerbase in the thousands is that we can observe little statistical blips like this (hey, I saw all three people at the Gaj buddying up with a mage) and mistake it for a larger trend.

I'm not saying feedback like this isn't occasionally warranted. But it wasn't much more than a week ago that someone else posted a global kudos to everyone for exhibiting the correct amount of mage hate.

Quote from: Asmoth on January 25, 2016, 12:13:50 PM
My only concern if you play against the grain of the fear for whatever manufsctured reason, then what's to stop everyone from suddenly coming to the rationalization that having a water witch around is a good thing?

Or that having someone who can make you invisible is a great thing?

The distortion goes on forever...

Staff.  I'm not saying 'whine' to staff about it, but if staff isn't made aware of these situations, then they won't be able to send a friendly heads up to the player about it, and so steer them towards roleplaying appropriately in the world as it is.

(Moreover, while threads like this will continue to exist forever and ever ad infinitum, they tend to (a) veer towards vagueposting which is lame and (b) not really even address the problem is a tangible way.  What you want is to nudge the player in the right direction, and outside of OOC or staff, there's no real good way to do this.  That player might not even read the gdb!)

Also what CodeMaster said!

ETA: Also, with fear/hatred of magick in particular:

First, it is something that lies pretty deep down in the average Allanaki citizen (and most others, but that will vary depending on the culture).  Hence, if you plan to roll up a character with no fear of magick, you'd have to include that in the BACKGROUND, so that's one 'balance check' -- staff can reject that character concept from the get-go if you keep rolling up magicker lovers.

Second, If something happens to your character in-game that would justify your character's abandoning their deep-seated fear/hatred of magick, then I would think that would be BIO worthy, so you can at least point to it if you get challenged.

Third, I can't stress this enough: while some onus is on the karma player to do this, both parties really should keep a constant eye on the virtual world when your character behaves contrary to the status quo  -- it helps newbies, and it's also something you can point to if challenged.  It's not just other players characters that hate magickers!  (Indeed, as Dman suggested, often player characters have their hands tied if confronted with someone who steps all over the status quo/documentation.)

I remember a year ago someone rolled into the Gaj and started talking about how Tek was a total idiot.  The PCs in the Gaj (myself included) couldn't really do much codedly to the guy, although we did react.  Fortunately, staff animated Vennant in that case.

There is always the good ol, 'If I mess with this witch and he finds me out in the sands' kind of common sense, so please, by all means, go fuck with the witch and continue that line of RP.  You will certainly find a nice mantis head at the end of your journey.

I love playing mages, I love their place in the world, and I think the magick code is the absolute bees knees.

And I will play the most rabid mage-haters you've ever seen because damn it, somebody needs to keep those twisted freaks of nature in their place.

The trick with Mage killing is to go with the posse mentality, bring friends and use poison.

Ding dead mage

To be honest...I'm trying to modify the way I have my characters react to mages based off of feedback I get from these threads.

I will not be -uber- friendly.  But I'm trying to be more inclusive and giving them things to do when there is some sort of IC motivation, without turning into a mage lover.  If this results in a sway too far to the other direction, I apologize, but I'm kind of fiddling with how interactions go to prevent me from assuming the extreme needs to be present on every character I have (which is how I have been for years.)

I want the harshness on gemmed and mages to remain.  I want their leashes to be -tight-.  But I don't want them to not have fun, either (this is the understanding I've tried to have from previous posts on this, compared to how I envision the game world).

As far as D-man's post, I agree...and that is kind of on the Oashi nobles, to be honest.  I remember one from the past who was incredibly hard on his gemmed.  But he also gave them a lot of things to do, to make up for the idea for that he did -not- want them causing issues with the common people.  Has to be remembered that noble houses are supposed to be relatively popular with the populace compared to the Arm and Templarate.  They are the oppressors; nobility and their servants are the benefactors who do things that benefit the common man, as long as you don't disrespect them.  This is described fairly well in the relationship documentation between templars and nobles, because this is why templars need nobles.  They get far better results when nobility show the commoners honey than when the templarate throws vinegar at them.  Hence...I kind of think Oashi-backed mages should back off just a weeee bit from the 'But I'm Oashi and can do what I want' bit.

I just don't RP with magick and hope they extend the same courtesy to me.

Quote from: Desertman on January 25, 2016, 12:02:27 PM
Messing with the gemmed, or gemmed lovers is the same as spitting on a Oashi noble or a Templar MOST of the time.

That is why they don't get fucked with.

I disagree.  Most Gemmed do not get nearly the level of protection that people think they get from Oash or the Templarate.  Of course, they sure as hell aren't going to advertise that.  They'll use any scrap of support they've ever received and try and make it look like they're a protected servant.  And then of course, there's selection bias.  Many of the Gemmed who go to the Gaj and chat it up, do so because they have protection.  Guess what happens when that protection starts to irritate their noble or templar sponsor?  It doesn't last very long.

If you want a real IC reason not to beat up a Gemmed sitting in the Gaj, it's because they're a fucking witch who will curse you and your entire family line.  Your children will be born with mutations.  Your weener will rot off.  You don't beat them up because you fear them.  Of course, if you have an angry mob with you at the time, your opinion of the situation and its risks will be greatly reduced...  Although you might want to ask around to see what happened ICly the last time a riot showed up at the Temple of Suk-krath.

I agree to disagree.

Heh, I sometimes wonder...

For an example, what if a crew boss decides/finds out one of his crew is a sekret gick.

Would it be against documentation for the crew boss to decide that its a very useful tool?  Even if internally their scared to shit, but outwardly and on some intellectual level they can't get over how useful that rogue will be for their plans.

OR mundanes finding out Boss is a rogue gick, does it command respect and fear?

Because sometimes... the black/white nature of the game makes it so, if your playing a rogue gick you just assume every ones gonna type "kill dude" the moment they find out.  Some even do, cause... well they do.

Because one side as awesome potential for RP... the other just turns it into a PK dice roll.


I wish the response was more varied in my experiences... because I often think people approach this shit too black or white with enough nuance, gray, and complexity that would result it better story. 

Sure Amos can summon other wordly forces... but... you've known Amos for years... Amos saved your life... Amos is extremely useful ungemmed... Amos is the reason that tainted dagger remains tucked away in the cloak in case Amos loses control.

::shrug::

I discovered four rogue magickers I can remember (maybe more, I can recall four by name) working for me over the life of a single leadership PC. Three "manifested" while in my employ having not previously known what they were. Another just chose to hide it.

I let every single one of them walk with the agreement "You never told me anything, I never saw anything.".

Never came back to haunt me once.

Maybe other people are typing "kill man". I don't know.

Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 25, 2016, 02:41:45 PM
Because sometimes... the black/white nature of the game makes it so, if your playing a rogue gick you just assume every ones gonna type "kill dude" the moment they find out.  Some even do, cause... well they do.

Because one side as awesome potential for RP... the other just turns it into a PK dice roll.

I could be way off here, but on my reading of the documentation (at least how Allanaki citizens behave with respect to magick), being a witch hunter is as insane (weird) as being a witch lover.  So on my reading of the docs, things just are grey, and people playing it as black/white are operating (hopefully with the right reasons) against the status quo.

(Even in the rinth, where witches are often hunted, or out with the desert elves, I would think hunting a witch would be the sort of thing you did as a last resort, because, like kissing, killing involves close encounters with something that could curse you.)

My 2sid.

Normal people don't love witches.

Normal people don't hunt witches.


PC's are by far not normal people. Every single PC comes into the game with the aptitude to be amazing beyond that of the standard normal VNCP world.


So yes, "normal" people don't do these things. Most PC's, unless the player is wanting to play a "normal", are not normal.

Quote from: Delirium on January 25, 2016, 12:45:05 PM
I love playing mages, I love their place in the world, and I think the magick code is the absolute bees knees.

And I will play the most rabid mage-haters you've ever seen because damn it, somebody needs to keep those twisted freaks of nature in their place.

+1   

Well I'm just thinking like a Rogue, fully manifested who is outed.

And lets also admit some folks guild sniff like a mutha.  If you ain't rolling in karma for an extended sub-guild it pretty easy to tell.

When I read the docs, I assume Magick is scary and you avoid that shit.

But does really go into detail when your lover turns out to be a magicker? Or your brother? Best friend?  When a magicker dives in for a life saving spell?  OR when a magicker really useful tool?

Or is that by all accounts to far? To much 'love'.  Love such a strong word, can you love the person but hate what they become? Can you love their usefulness by harbor a deep rooted paranoid fear, always keeping that poison arrow just in case.

Just thinking.

It's situational.

There is no catch-all for this situation.

If your PC would turn them in, then turn them in.

If not, then don't.

I absolutely agree that there are grey areas and they should be explored and roleplayed responsibly. I've seen it done and done well, and I love playing mages as a result.

Just, sometimes, I really think going hardline, no-compromises mage intolerance (aka, like all^* northern PCs should be) adds some much-needed balance to the spectrum of interactions.

It's also a nice way to enforce playing a character for the sake of inhabiting a role, instead of conveniently structuring your character so that they can "win".

* except for you weird snowflake types that have some Really Good Reason in your documentation to tolerate them... maybe

It all depends on the PCs involved. Human nature allows for everything. You should just be aware that some expressions and actions are frowned upon by society.

Southern society by and large disapproves of magick and the association with magick. Your PC may be friends with magickers, but this should be with the understanding that this is atypical at best.

Read up on your society's attitudes towards magick. The more out of line your PC is, the more careful you have to be to RP it without coming across as a doc-flaunting mudsex-crazed carebear.

There are no mages allowed in Tuluk.

#tuluk4ever #closeallanak2016 #hashtag

I can respect that, maybe I mis-read the GDB rhetoric sometimes.

I read a lot of magick hate as  "kill dude" or "under no circumstances!"

And any complexity of nuance between mundane and witch is always treated by the magick is bad crowd as "WITCH LOVE! ARGH PLAY TO DOCS SNOWFLAKES."

But that how I read which may not be the authors intent.

I also sympathize with the snowflake hate.  When everyone is an exception... it ceases being an exception.

Random, but this reminds me of an encounter I had with an invisible magicker once in the desert.

It went something like:

"Hey, I'm a big scary magicker. Be scared."

"Well, there's nothing I can do to stop you from killing me if you want to. So sit down and have a bite to eat at my fire if you care to, because I'm too old to be scared for you today."

"I hear that sort of thing so much it's cliché."

"Well, maybe if I didn't have a new invisible magicker fucking with me at least once ever three or four weeks I would be more impressed."

We basically had an OOC argument in game. They were telling me I wasn't roleplaying proper fear. I was telling them it's hard to roleplay proper fear when you see dozens of magickers regularly. We were both right.

They left, I lived.

It's hard to roleplay proper fear/awe/hate for magickers when you see them every single day of your life sitting in the same taverns as you with everyone else.

It's hard to roleplay proper fear/awe/hate for magickers in the desert when you see two a RL week and all of them want you to do the same "old encounter' for them again and again and again.

If I roleplayed proper fear/awe/hate for magickers every time I saw a magicker, especially in Allanak, I would spend most of my logged in time doing that and only that.

If you want me to roleplay a magicker is scary and rare.....make it rare. Otherwise I'm mostly going to treat them like any other undesirable that is just as common as they are.

It's hard to ropleay proper fear/awe/hate when you find magick just a fundamentally uninteresting story-telling element that has the added "Bonus" of immediately trumping every other factor. So many good political/combat/adventure plots reduced to "lol magick!"

QuoteIf you want a real IC reason not to beat up a Gemmed sitting in the Gaj, it's because they're a fucking witch who will curse you and your entire family line.  Your children will be born with mutations.  Your weener will rot off.  You don't beat them up because you fear them.

Incorrect.  The gem around their neck says that they serve the city.  Commoners hear drivel about the Highlord's protection day in and day out.  The gemmed are tolerated by the Highlord because of their acquiescence to serving His will.  The Highlord does not tolerate upstart mages, and so the moment one is threatening to use their 'gift' as an assertion of power of the common, I fully expect the templarate to say 'Wait what?  You're okay with the idea that you can use this for self-elevation?!  That's a dangerous thought!'

Every time a mage threatens something like this while wearing the gem is the moment I start informing the templarate that there is a very uppity mage who is forgetting their place and threatening citizens.  Sometimes something comes of it.  Sometimes something doesn't.  If they are Oashi, it pretty much gets passed on to Oash to deal with, which is why D-man's words on such are valid.

This is not unyielding.  This -is- my actual compromise of gemmed and commoners being in forced close contact over time.  Before, I said the documentation demanded hatred and fear.  Now this is the compromise made through years of dialogue on the subject...they have to be included in things, which requires that they also realize they cannot depend on said fears above.  That is not an option anymore.  No more demanding fear of magick while also demanding acceptance of it.

Dman sounds like you meet one really un-creative player.  Might be harsh of me to judge but I would have the same reaction.

"Be scared of me."

"LOL get in line, dude behind the last magicker who tried this shtick."

I dunno... when I play magick I usually play a PC unfit for the world, just trying to find a place, remain hidden, maybe use his powers in secret to accomplish goals.   Of course when I have the opportunity for karma classes  I don't see has a way to wield power over other players or harass random hunter #1233.  Sounds... lame honestly, one can be much more creative then that.  I rather take on the challenge of being more then just a random blur harassing hunting parties.

I guess I've only had limited exposure to magickers messing with me.  Only one time was it kind of silly, but we both rolled with it, but I believe wasn't intended to be a deadly encounter. 

He was actually well played.

He just wasn't any more well played than the dozens of other magickers I see regularly.

It is what it is.

Magickers are more common than dwarves when it comes to PC to PC interactions. Throw an unusual dwarf at me and I will find that more interesting than magicker #551.

At best magickers get treated on the same social level for me as breeds, but in this case, breeds that maybe Oash or a Templar might back. It makes how you treat them a little different, but not by much.

It is perfectly valid to have hatred and fear of mages. It's how those feelings are manifested and acted upon that's important.

Personally I think the best everyday attitude for southern mundanes to have (as a baseline) is fear-driven resentment and disassociation from the Gemmed as much as possible. These things are strange, deadly, and gross, but they're also protected. You want to limit your interaction with them as much as possible lest you catch something from them or, Highlord forbid, get involved in something that might draw a Templar's attention.

It's only during periods of complete law-and-order breakdown that public violence is directed at the Gemmed. And, as someone has previously said, sometimes that doesn't work out very well.

It's important to remember that it goes both ways.

If I play a mage, she's most likely more scared of "normals" than they are of her.  Even if they're gemmed and working for House Oash - they know the score.

Social power, superior numbers, and might of arms are nothing to sneeze at.

Quote from: Desertman on January 25, 2016, 03:49:40 PM
Random, but this reminds me of an encounter I had with an invisible magicker once in the desert.

It went something like:

"Hey, I'm a big scary magicker. Be scared."

"Well, there's nothing I can do to stop you from killing me if you want to. So sit down and have a bite to eat at my fire if you care to, because I'm too old to be scared for you today."

"I hear that sort of thing so much it's cliché."

"Well, maybe if I didn't have a new invisible magicker fucking with me at least once ever three or four weeks I would be more impressed."

We basically had an OOC argument in game. They were telling me I wasn't roleplaying proper fear. I was telling them it's hard to roleplay proper fear when you see dozens of magickers regularly. We were both right.

They left, I lived.

We must have encountered the same magicker.  :D I had practically the same conversation with one magicker, came in whispering in the ear. The only difference was I was playing a gemmer at the time myself. My character, a magicker himself, surrounded by gemmed magickers all his life, wanted me to be afraid of him for being a magicker.

This was before whiran karma requirements got bumped, haven't encountered a similar situation since.

Anywyas my opinion is that publically all magickers are scorned and often met with digust...privately/discretely though, I've been happily surprised to find that the docs can be rather accurate depending on the PC. Kudos :)

Quote from: LauraMars on January 25, 2016, 04:16:37 PM
It's important to remember that it goes both ways.

If I play a mage, she's most likely more scared of "normals" than they are of her.  Even if they're gemmed and working for House Oash - they know the score.

Social power, superior numbers, and might of arms are nothing to sneeze at.

This, very much this.

Quote from: Desertman on January 25, 2016, 03:49:40 PM
It's hard to roleplay proper fear/awe/hate for magickers when you see them every single day of your life sitting in the same taverns as you with everyone else.

It's hard to roleplay proper fear/awe/hate for magickers in the desert when you see two a RL week and all of them want you to do the same "old encounter' for them again and again and again.

If I roleplayed proper fear/awe/hate for magickers every time I saw a magicker, especially in Allanak, I would spend most of my logged in time doing that and only that.

If you want me to roleplay a magicker is scary and rare.....make it rare. Otherwise I'm mostly going to treat them like any other undesirable that is just as common as they are.

Exactly that.

Especially for citizens of Allanak, you are exposed to gemmed all over the place. There is an entire city quad' dedicated to housing and training them, it lets out onto the main thoroughfare and they're welcome to hang around in regular taverns, rent apartments in the commons, shop in the bazaar and behave like everyone else without consequence. Then you have the considerable career options with Oash, one of the most prestigious noble houses that afford them superior status to common citizens, as well as the option of being a Templars minion and serving as confidant and council, or even as a flirty love interest.

If a citizen is growing up surrounded by this all the time, they're going to end up conditioned to it. The response from the PCs towards magick (mild distrust, shrugging and avoidance, some situational embracing) is just about spot on as far as I'm concerned, given the gemmed behave and interact with the game world and the people in it in more or less the exact same manner as everyone else, except they're forced to wear non-optional jewelry.

The entire OOC slant towards 'interaction with magick = twink / bad RP / another GDB hate thread' has never made sense to me, either, considering player options are more supernatural, rather than mundane.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Guilds

QuoteNormal Guilds:
Assassins    Burglars    Merchants
Pickpockets    Rangers    Warriors

QuoteKarma Required Guilds:
Drovians    Elkrosians    Krathis
Nilazi    Psionicists    Rukkians
Sorcerers    Vivaduans    Whirans

(Templars, too, since they include psionics or magick options)

Six mundane options, ten supernatural options. The game was pretty obviously built with magick and magick powers being a major and functional part of regular play.

I've never been able to maintain the facade of magick being mysterious, scary and rare -- every time I start up a character with those kinds of bias, they're erased by in-game interactions within a few game years. In most cases, they end up in love with someone, sleeping with them, living together, then they're let in on the secret that guess what, you've been banging a witch/psi/sorc/undead (seriously) all this time.

The same goes for making friends in-game, especially as an independent. You end up making friends and associates and so many of them turn out to be an elemental, a Nilazi, even a sorcerer or psi that it becomes impossible for it to even come as a surprise after a while, or for your character not to become conditioned to it.

Overall, ArmageddonMUD revolves around and is propped up on the pillars of magickal trope. It is pervasive, it is invasive.

It is fucking everywhere.

It's time to embrace the horror, folks.

The only horror I experience from magick anymore is that my PC might get hijacked into another laser light show RPT.

What, you didn't enjoy being a part of that non-interactive fiction?

Pew, pew.

All I got to do was kill some gypsy NPC. Didn't even see the dwakon  :-\

More seriously, I'm afraid I would just suicide a character rather than be coerced into a magickal plot. They just have no appeal for me.

Quote from: LauraMars on January 25, 2016, 04:16:37 PM
It's important to remember that it goes both ways.

If I play a mage, she's most likely more scared of "normals" than they are of her.  Even if they're gemmed and working for House Oash - they know the score.

Social power, superior numbers, and might of arms are nothing to sneeze at.

I do very much agree with this post, and have tried to play like that on my magickers.

BadSkeelz, I get this sense that you've just been included in a lot of bad magickal plots.  Or do you hate supernaturally leaning plots in all fiction? 

He doesn't like anything you can hit with three unspeakables and not kill.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 25, 2016, 08:33:35 PM
BadSkeelz, I get this sense that you've just been included in a lot of bad magickal plots.  Or do you hate supernaturally leaning plots in all fiction? 

The latter. Most Arm magick plots aren't really offensive; my reaction is typically the same as Desertman's "Gonna kill me if they want, so whatever" attitude. I do resent how Magick cheapens the role of politics and mundane skills.

I'm also saddened whenever an interesting character manifests because they just become a gimmick.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 25, 2016, 08:42:44 PM
I'm also saddened whenever an interesting character manifests because they just become a gimmick.

That isn't really a fair statement.

Some of the best experiences I've had in the game came from someone turning out to be more than I realized. Some time ago, I had a character in a romantic relationship with someone she shouldn't have been and the entire taboo of sneaking around, covering our tracks and that type of thing was an absolute riot and I loved the entire experience.

Then they dropped the bomb they were a mindworm.

When I recovered from choking and completely botching the opening scene, I realized that aspect of her character being out there had immediately overshadowed all the cool stuff we had going on up until that point. To a degree, the worm angle became the new 'in' thing and all the sneaking around, the taboo of a secret love and related things became mundane and old hat in comparison.

That character didn't become a gimmick and 'the' gimmick of mind reading powers didn't diminish what a rockstar character she was, but it took some adjustment on my part when I realized my character went from the co-star in a show about forbidden love to a supporting character in a show about a the life of a mind worm. That's what happens when you're the mundane at the side of someone rare and powerful, though.

They become a big deal, but you're still playing some bitch with a sword.

I suppose what I'm getting at is, when a character manifests or otherwise develops some new and unexpected character arc, it doesn't reduce them to a gimmick or diminish how interesting they are as a character. It doesn't diminish the merit or value of your character, either, even if it might initially feel like they're stealing the show from you.

You missed a prime chance to add eight notches to your belt, there.

I actually respect psions and their plots, finding them inherently spookier and more engaging. Still find their powergaming aspect annoying, but so many get killed trying to level up on newbies I kind of pity them at this point.

Magick almost always follows the same, predictable trajectory on top of just being dull to watch.

The bitch with the sword remains the most interesting PC in the game for me to play. Anything else is threatening to get in the way of my sword-bitching.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 12:57:21 AM
You missed a prime chance to add eight notches to your belt, there.

I've got a closet full of belts, all of them notched to fuck, so I'm not too worried about it.

:-*

Remember that it's a game ultimately about character interaction.  Mage characters need interaction too to have fun or they might as well go play an MMO, or have their own separate city somewhere.

Quote from: Erythil on January 26, 2016, 01:38:46 AM
Remember that it's a game ultimately about character interaction.  Mage characters need interaction too to have fun or they might as well go play an MMO, or have their own separate city somewhere.

(http://i.imgur.com/3GKcw0q.jpg)

I figure when a player loses a number of characters to mages (like Badskeelz?), they'll develop such an animosity for the class and the magick system as a whole that it'll translate well into IC hate. huehue.

If characters not only ostracized the magickers, but also the people who openly work and converse with them, you'd see a big difference in 'witch loving' because of the social stigma it bears. A failure to enforce the stigma causes these casual interactions between mundanes and magickers to play out the way they do.

#witchesandfriendsgetstitches

Yet on the other hand, their current representation in the game world doesn't really line up with documentation. They're plentiful, have weird amounts of clout, and people generally give their character an excuse to befriend one and make use of their special talents: "I'll do whatever it takes to win, Chief!"

Desertman also touched on the point of it being difficult to be afraid of something you interact with -soooooooo- much.

---

watev, doe. ain't my prob, bitches.

Personally (read: having nothing to do with my being on staff) I'd prefer if mages had no ground to go to. No elementalist quarter. No gemmed. No tolerant tribes or settlements. If you go magick you put it in the closet, go rouge, or get murdered like sorcerers and psions.

ETA: And if you didn't hunt and kill other opposing elementalists your elementals killed you. Welcome to magick: no friends allowed.

maybe consider posting with your non-staff account if you don't want your words to carry staff weight?
(http://i.imgur.com/okmxqEx.jpg)

I enjoy his transparency and sorta think that would be a good change to mages.

Quote from: Asmoth on January 26, 2016, 03:20:15 AM
I enjoy his transparency and sorta think that would be a good change to mages.

The transparency and approachability aspect is precisely why I don't maintain two separate GDB handles, FWIW.

Hey look, another magick sucks thread lead by the vocal minority.  Let's keep everything in perspective:  http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48952.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48952.0.html)

With that said, I do like to hear why people don't like magick/magick users.  It helps me try and figure out what irks them, so when I play my mages I can try to avoid the cliches or play styles that generate that irritation.

I personally believe there should be a scale on hatred of magick, based on the element in question.  For instance, Vivaduans should be more accepted in Allanak and the tribes, they heal and create water which creates massive value to society at large.  Whereas Whirans and Drovians should be significantly more hated.  They provide nothing to society.  They're good at spying, killing, or summoning otherworldly creatures...maybe the Templarate would tolerate them, but I don't think even House Oash should be able to employ them openly without risking their reputation, and Templar's who employ them should receive a significant stigma for doing so.  Rukkians and Elkrosians could fall somewhere in the middle of this, probably receiving the same amount of hate they have now.  

And all of this is really just enforcing existing documentation on the elementalist roles....  "Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with.  As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more." etc, etc.

That's a good idea to grade your hate based on the element. It already plays out in game to some extent, but it's useful to remember that most of the elements do little but to facilitate people to be assholes.

I think Jave's idea would make mages almost completely unplayable. For the record, I voted "magick's place in the world is fine" in that linked poll.

Also, I've never been PKed by a mage or even had a hostile spell cast on me... well, except for that one time, when we busted a gay Rukkian and his Nilazi sugar daddy.

Quote from: Vwest on January 26, 2016, 12:34:16 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 25, 2016, 08:42:44 PM
I'm also saddened whenever an interesting character manifests because they just become a gimmick.

That isn't really a fair statement.

Also because I have a bit a time, let me explain why it is a fair statement. People suddenly manifesting are nothing more than gimmicks and the game would be better off if they were just insta-ganked.

Every reason you had to love or hate that PC, to strive against them, to compete, to Roleplay, suddenly becomes seconded to the fact that they are Magicker. The rest of the game world isn't going to give a shit about what that character really is either, because they're a Magicker. That's all the world needs to know to oppose them, and in doing so it cheapens them. By forcing us to react, it cheapens us.

The stories of the suddenly-manifested PC are always the same. They either become Gemmed, become hunted, or become dead. Their actual personalities and actions get lost behind the label of the Guild.

To the unmanifested PCs of the Known: don't! You're much more interesting as you are now.

If you can be a manifested rogue without anyone being the wiser, and just be a master mage...

... That moment when all looks lost, gith or spiders charging in en masse... suddenly, the wild-eyed halfbreed cackles maniacly, chanting strange words and lifting his hands, as a massive wall of flame reduces reinforcements to cinder and smoke. His hands lifted to the sky as his hysterical, high-pitched, squeeling laughter echoes through the canyon, as those whose lives he just saved glance amongst eachother nervoursly, unsure of how to react, and somewhat disturbed by the gleeful, manic noises issue forth from the small breed.

Then, as he sobers, the breed turns and looks amongst his companions, clears his throat, and says, "What?"

QuoteAnd all of this is really just enforcing existing documentation on the elementalist roles....  "Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with.  As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more." etc, etc.

If you want to bring up that helpfile, then you have to bring up that it's the red-headed stepchild of the magickal helpfiles; it is the only one with that friendly of a word describing the mage's relationship with everyone else.  Everywhere else, it discusses hatred and fear as the basis and foundation of magickal roleplay, to the point there was a thread specifically about this one helpfile. There it was argued whether or not this was a remnant of times when halflings sat in taverns and spoke with people, and that it was also posited that this was simply a matter of helpfile-formatting, following the trend for showing what the class was capable of, because this helpfile is simply not in line with any other helpfile on the topic.

As noted before, I have stepping off of my hate/fear reactions in the last year or so.  Trying to play more with it and have a more dynamic relationship.  I will still point out that that is a document that appears to have no association with the rest of documentation though, and I think the helpfiles that describe culture and magick as a whole have more bearing on any discussion of treatment of magick then the class outline that tells what a class is good at.

Edit:  Fixed a giant run-on because I ramble.

Getting gemmed has such an unusual dynamic surrounding it on the social level in the game.

In my mind I feel getting gemmed should be a horrible stigma that makes you walk through life not wanting to be around most people. Extreme shame, extreme guilt, and extreme self-loathing. If not those things, at the very least, fear/resentment of everyone else.

Imagine in RL if you had a disease that nobody understood but everyone thought made you literally a contagious walking monstrosity. You were literally the boogie man parents told their children about during their bedtime stories, and not just to scare the children, but because the parents believed it.

The gemmed, in my opinion, should be treated like you would treat a rabid dog that shot lasers from its eyes and infected anyone who got close to it with a disease that ate the lining out of your asshole so that anytime you shit it felt like razors until you died.



Getting gemmed now only means two things however:

A) You now have some backing to give you some political leverage most of the time from Oash/a Templar.
B) People are going to be extra nice to you pretty regularly out of fear of your new potential political backing.


That's pretty much the game.

(This is coming from someone who has hired magickers to help their own agenda and has on several occasions enjoyed playing with magickers in game. But not because they are magickers....but because I can and do treat them like everyone else....because they are like everyone else, with laser beams.)

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 04:57:07 AM

Quote from: Vwest on January 26, 2016, 12:34:16 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 25, 2016, 08:42:44 PM
I'm also saddened whenever an interesting character manifests because they just become a gimmick.

That isn't really a fair statement.

Also because I have a bit a time, let me explain why it is a fair statement. People suddenly manifesting are nothing more than gimmicks and the game would be better off if they were just insta-ganked.

Every reason you had to love or hate that PC, to strive against them, to compete, to Roleplay, suddenly becomes seconded to the fact that they are Magicker. The rest of the game world isn't going to give a shit about what that character really is either, because they're a Magicker. That's all the world needs to know to oppose them, and in doing so it cheapens them. By forcing us to react, it cheapens us.

The stories of the suddenly-manifested PC are always the same. They either become Gemmed, become hunted, or become dead. Their actual personalities and actions get lost behind the label of the Guild.

To the unmanifested PCs of the Known: don't! You're much more interesting as you are now.

This is a really unfair statement because you're basically speaking from a side of a curtain without knowledge of the other side.  You're upset someone has gone from your side of the stage to the other and not acknowledging that the same character depth and interest can and DOES exist for magickers.

Your perception is basically that YOU view the character as only the guild.  It would be like if someone was playing a ranger, and did a hunt infront of you and suddenly the only thing you could see is a ranger from now on.

I get you're upset because magicker guilds strongly identify and label a person ICly, unlike warrior or ranger which are OOC constructs, but labels and stereotypes exist outside of magick as well such as half-elves are all breedy, tuluki are all subtle, allanaki are all rude brutes, etc.

I get that you hate magickers, and for whatever reason you just can't see past the label, but that's your problem, and the shame you heap on the players of those characters is unwarranted.


EDIT:
I've seen a lot of negativity towards the intentions of players on the board lately, and it's really gotten to the point I feel like I can't keep quiet about it.  When you see another player, and you immediately think the worst of their OOC intentions and that they're just out to grief you it only serves to cheapen your own experience.  Just let go, assume other players are playing the game for the same reasons you hopefully are, that they want to enjoy a fully realized roleplaying game by bringing a character to life the best that they can.

Quote from: Jave on January 26, 2016, 03:11:46 AM
Personally (read: having nothing to do with my being on staff) I'd prefer if mages had no ground to go to. No elementalist quarter. No gemmed. No tolerant tribes or settlements. If you go magick you put it in the closet, go rouge, or get murdered like sorcerers and psions.

ETA: And if you didn't hunt and kill other opposing elementalists your elementals killed you. Welcome to magick: no friends allowed.

I hope you realize how incredibly boring, isolating, and awful that sounds to play. Not to mention very black and white; strict either/or scenarios are very opposite of actual human nature.

I think we need to remember that IC mistrust or hatred of magick is one thing; OOCly it should still be a role that is enjoyable.

I'm definitely on the pro-magick team, the lore is rich and magickal plots are always super-exciting to me. I could sit around and talk magick for hours and enjoy every minute, not that mon un fireball talk but just good ole magick philosophy. It's deep, it's a very important part of the gameworld, and unlocking it's secrets it's always awesome. That said I'm just a lore nerd about everything in Zalanthas really.

My usual take on mages whether I'm playing one or not tends to be this..

A gemmed mage - they got registered, they're a tool of the city, my pc may have a generally dislike for them or not but if my pc is an Allanaki I'll recognize that they are in fact a slave to the city. They're controlled, clearly they abide in the same city under the same laws as I do.

Rogue mages - scary, rabid dog off it's leash with nothing tying it to anything or anywhere. I will generally RP a fear of a rogue mages, my gemmed elementalists will distrust ungemmed mages.


I tend to get similar reactions from my fellow players when I play those roles as well, I feel a majority of our playerbase abides by some similar line of reasoning.

Quote from: Delirium on January 26, 2016, 12:01:30 PM

Quote from: Jave on January 26, 2016, 03:11:46 AM
Personally (read: having nothing to do with my being on staff) I'd prefer if mages had no ground to go to. No elementalist quarter. No gemmed. No tolerant tribes or settlements. If you go magick you put it in the closet, go rouge, or get murdered like sorcerers and psions.

ETA: And if you didn't hunt and kill other opposing elementalists your elementals killed you. Welcome to magick: no friends allowed.

I hope you realize how incredibly boring, isolating, and awful that sounds to play. Not to mention very black and white; strict either/or scenarios are very opposite of actual human nature.

I think we need to remember that IC mistrust or hatred of magick is one thing; OOCly it should still be a role that is enjoyable.

I think it sounds awesome in every way imaginable.

To each his own.

I wish magick was less sterile, more often.

By sterile, I mean: you type "cast mon blah blah man" and you know exactly what's going to happen. Maybe it's going to fail, but there are very few possible outcomes.

This is a poorly-understood mystical force of the universe! It shouldn't be so predictable and easily-controlled.

Two ideas:

1. There should be some code behind the "commoners think magickers will make your dick fall off" type of idea. No, nothing like that; more like, you stood next to an Elkran for too long, and you now have an affliction that makes you semi-permanently have less stamina (until it's cured by xyz, which can be a plot..."

2. A kind of "wild magic" table. You wanted to create a pool of water to drink from...but you rolled a 28, and an elemental is crawling out of the pool, and it isn't happy.

Crude, basic ideas, but the end goal is: I think magick would be more feared if it were more unpredictable and truly dangerous. As it stands, if the Mage in question is trustworthy, it's safe.

"Get the fuck away from me" would be a more popular response if mages were actually not safe to be around, instead of those ideas basically being old wives' tales.

I fully support staff doing wacky things to mages or those who spend time with mages, along these lines. But it'd be better if there was some code to it, too.

Quote from: Large Hero on January 26, 2016, 12:21:55 PM
2. A kind of "wild magic" table. You wanted to create a pool of water to drink from...but you rolled a 28, and an elemental is crawling out of the pool, and it isn't happy.

I prefer things as they are.  It creates the cool sense of irony for a magickally inclined character.  Magick is a mostly stable, powerful force that could be used to make the world a better place, but it isn't because people are people.   The tool that could have used to build a paradise, was instead corrupted and used to create the barren wasteland that is Zalanthas.  It isn't chaos or a failed roll on a "wild magic" table that ruined the world (or killed your grebber in the wastes), no...it was the choice of a living being.

Quote from: Large Hero on January 26, 2016, 12:21:55 PM2. A kind of "wild magic" table. You wanted to create a pool of water to drink from...but you rolled a 28, and an elemental is crawling out of the pool, and it isn't happy.

Crude, basic ideas, but the end goal is: I think magick would be more feared if it were more unpredictable and truly dangerous. As it stands, if the Mage in question is trustworthy, it's safe.

Great point - magick should behave unpredictably if we expect the whole playerbase to react as if magick behaves unpredictably.

I wish the syllables of magick for your spells were randomized so it wouldn't take one playthrough of a class to memorize the words for everything.

Quote from: tinsix on January 26, 2016, 01:21:11 PM
Great point - magick should behave unpredictably if we expect the whole playerbase to react as if magick behaves unpredictably.

If the game had the development resources to do it, I'd love it if there were regular changes to magick to keep it more of an unknown in the world.  But I do not like the idea of some wild magick table.  Magick is not a chaotic, wild force in Zalanthas.  It might seem that way to the uneducated, brain washed masses, but that's not the reality.  If there's a magickal catastrophe, you can bet there's a reason for it, and that reason is not a "whoops, rolled a 1".   

I'd love to see new spells added, and older spells become rare or disappearing all together as a result of IC events or magickally significant plot lines.  It would be cool if the effects of spells were perverted or enhanced by actions taken by players.  For instance, if the actions of a PC (perhaps unwittingly) caused all Vivaduans to create pools of blood instead of water when they tried to work their magicks until whatever is causing the problem is addressed.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 26, 2016, 01:50:36 PM

Quote from: tinsix on January 26, 2016, 01:21:11 PM
Great point - magick should behave unpredictably if we expect the whole playerbase to react as if magick behaves unpredictably.

If the game had the development resources to do it, I'd love it if there were regular changes to magick to keep it more of an unknown in the world.  But I do not like the idea of some wild magick table.  Magick is not a chaotic, wild force in Zalanthas.  It might seem that way to the uneducated, brain washed masses, but that's not the reality.  If there's a magickal catastrophe, you can bet there's a reason for it, and that reason is not a "whoops, rolled a 1".  

I'll point out that I'm not discussing changes based on how they fit into Zalanthas' current magick mythos. I'm speaking purely from a hypothetical perspective - what might, in my opinion, make for better gameplay.

Because as we all know, players will change their play to fit with how things actually are "on the ground"; that is to say, we can talk on the GDB until we're blue in the face about how mages should be feared and shunned by the general population, but if there aren't real reasons to fear and shun them, it ain't gonna happen.

As of now, there are few compelling reasons to fear and shun them. What's more compelling is what others have said - that they're tolerated and considered to be common, because as a percentage of the playerbase, they are. When you discover your third manifested magicker, as others in this thread have described, it becomes ho-hum. Especially when they represent reliable tools who can't really hurt you unless the individual chooses to or goes off the rails.


I'm one of those people who would very happily go along with huge changes to the game that swept away everything that came before - if they were legitimately good changes. If staff decided to retcon half-giants completely, they never existed (and there was a good reason for it) - alright. If staff decides to say that halflings exist and have always existed and never died out - sure.

"This idea isn't good because it doesn't fit with the way things have always been done" isn't a compelling argument to me. This is a game; we (being the players and staff as an entire community) can change it however we like. I don't hold sacrosanct someone's ideas about magick from 1996 or whenever the system was designed. If they're good ideas, great, keep them. If they can be improved, change them.


All that said - when I bring up a "wild magic table," I'm not advocating random fireballs flying around with every cast. I'm suggesting that there could be a small chance of occasional unintended effects. The exact implementation doesn't matter.

What matters is the concept: we can say magick exists on a spectrum between "completely safe" and "completely dangerous". If it were completely dangerous, all mages would just be hunted relentlessly, and even the Templarate wouldn't use them. No one is suggesting that.

I'm only suggesting that, currently, the slider is too far toward "completely safe," and that it would be more interesting if it weren't - because unpredictable magick creates conflict - the conflict of "is this mage worth keeping around? Worth using? Despite all the dangers?"

That this thread exists at all is evidence that the conflict level mages are 'supposed' to have (i.e., "get away from me, filthy magicker!") isn't lining up with reality.

My views haven't changed much since the last time I posted in such a thread:

Quote from: Patuk on January 16, 2015, 09:03:38 PM
A lot of mages are played by offpeakers. When I log in during dinnertime for me there tend to be few people in general, but many gemmers around.

Having said that, I've had a single character who was willing and in fact did bang a magicker, and especially in retrospect, all I can think now is 'why the hell did things go well for so long?' When you're a walking master of doom having sex with some idiot who can't get a normal girl to like him, for even a minor mishap to happen seems likely.

A solution I'd like to see is for magick to actually become as dangerous as it's implied to be. Not to the extent that there would be no krathi played beyond the ten day mark, but, from the top of my head:

(Note: I'm doing my best not to describe any existent spells. It's not easy, so at least give me some credit and don't entirely remove my post)

A rukkian casting spells, and doubly so at a higher level, might cause an occasional minor tremor or natural deformity to happen. The armour of people near a rukkian weaving spells might degrade a bit because of their effect on matter.

A vivaduan may have fewer adverse effects on bystanders, what with their reputation being better than other mages, but their magics could cause bystanders' clothes to stain with weird fluids or inflict minor diseases/poisons and little miraculous healing acts in equal measure.

A krathi shouldn't really be near friendlies while casting at all. I have seen that the code supports people being set on fire, and their thirst levels could be increased as well.

Elkran spells could cause static currents to shock unfortunates, even temporarily lowering agility in the process.

Drovians casting shit may darken rooms, put out light sources or even curse bystanders with odd, fleeting magical nastiness.

... I got nothing insofar Nilazi are concerned, but people who hang with Nilazi know exactly what they are doing, I reckon.

If you want people to distrust elves and think of them all as thieves, make them good thieves. Since they are, people really fucking hate elves.

Consequentially, I really don't think magick is going to be treated in line with the documentation very well as long as it's more reliable than modern firearms and explosives are.

Re: wizturbo

The argument that magic shouldn't become unpredictable because it's stable right now isn't a very good one, since it relies on circular logic. It's like arguing against the legalisation of weed because it's illegal; you're just describing the status quo as is. Yes, magic is a stable force. If you want to argue against people who say it shouldn't be, come up with something better than 'lol but it's not'

After reading this thread and giving it careful consideration, I have decided I will continue to play my magicker however the fuck I want.

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpnpsfMoLY1qd8t4mo1_500.gif)

Quote from: Ender on January 26, 2016, 10:16:22 AM
This is a really unfair statement because you're basically speaking from a side of a curtain without knowledge of the other side.  You're upset someone has gone from your side of the stage to the other and not acknowledging that the same character depth and interest can and DOES exist for magickers.

I don't deny that other players find Magick plotlines engaging and interesting, just as I don't deny that other players found rape plotlines engaging or interesting. I personally find neither to be engaging or interesting. At worst they're distractions that override all other plots due to the attention they attract. They both have their place in making Zalanthas what it is, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, especially when I have no means of opting out.



If I could change one thing about the current Magick code, I would make it so the Gemmed could visit other elements' temples again. That or remove Nil. I think both of them contribute to a super-iso style of play that's offputting (regardless of the theme involved). Don't know how others put up with it.

Quote from: manonfire on January 26, 2016, 02:11:11 PM
After reading this thread and giving it careful consideration, I have decided I will continue to play my magicker however the fuck I want.

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpnpsfMoLY1qd8t4mo1_500.gif)

That's well and good, this thread is less focused on the players of mages and more on how people treat mages, why, and whether that needs adjustment (with ideas on how to make that adjustment easier).

Quote from: Patuk on January 26, 2016, 02:06:30 PM
Re: wizturbo

The argument that magic shouldn't become unpredictable because it's stable right now isn't a very good one, since it relies on circular logic. It's like arguing against the legalisation of weed because it's illegal; you're just describing the status quo as is. Yes, magic is a stable force. If you want to argue against people who say it shouldn't be, come up with something better than 'lol but it's not'

I just don't want people to mistake the perceived instability of magick as actual instability under the current setting.  If people want to argue that the setting should change, I guess that's okay.  But it's just like saying Zalanthas should have a rain forest, or muls should be able to have babies.  It might be worth changing, and there could be IC reasons for those changes to occur, but it would be stepping away from the setting as it stands today.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
If I could change one thing about the current Magick code, I would make it so the Gemmed could visit other elements' temples again. That or remove Nil. I think both of them contribute to a super-iso style of play that's offputting (regardless of the theme involved). Don't know how others put up with it.

+1

Quote from: wizturbo on January 26, 2016, 02:30:17 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
If I could change one thing about the current Magick code, I would make it so the Gemmed could visit other elements' temples again. That or remove Nil. I think both of them contribute to a super-iso style of play that's offputting (regardless of the theme involved). Don't know how others put up with it.

+1

Do you really want me playing a krathi who has to find a person to cast his fireball of doom at un?

Nil is needed for some spells.

Quote from: Asmoth on January 26, 2016, 02:33:16 PM
Do you really want me playing a krathi who has to find a person to cast his fireball of doom at un?

Yes.

Magick is dangerous. It should be dangerous to use, be dangerous to be around. Nil removes all danger. It encourages magickers to just sit in caves or temples, spam casting away until they're able to walk in to the game world and force us to acknowledge their "achievements."

If a spell is so powerful that you're afraid of using it with Un, then it's a powerful spell and you should acknowledge that.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 26, 2016, 02:24:53 PM

Quote from: Patuk on January 26, 2016, 02:06:30 PM
Re: wizturbo

The argument that magic shouldn't become unpredictable because it's stable right now isn't a very good one, since it relies on circular logic. It's like arguing against the legalisation of weed because it's illegal; you're just describing the status quo as is. Yes, magic is a stable force. If you want to argue against people who say it shouldn't be, come up with something better than 'lol but it's not'

I just don't want people to mistake the perceived instability of magick as actual instability under the current setting.  If people want to argue that the setting should change, I guess that's okay.  But it's just like saying Zalanthas should have a rain forest, or muls should be able to have babies.  It might be worth changing, and there could be IC reasons for those changes to occur, but it would be stepping away from the setting as it stands today.

I don't think anyone is perceiving magick as being unstable, currently. We all know that a magicker isn't going to randomly cause catastrophes. We all know that the "a magicker made my child turn blue!" commoner hysteria is just flavor and doesn't represent the reality of the game. Part of the discussion is: is that hysteria something we want the game to have? Does it improve the atmosphere for roleplaying? Would having mages -actually- be feared more be an improvement?

If we agree that mages should be feared and distrusted more than they are, then, as other players have said, they need to actually be made more fearsome and untrustworthy.

If the community were making threads about whether the current level of Zalanthan rainforest or mul fertility rates were positively impacting the game and making for good gameplay, then it'd be constructive to discuss changing them.

I'd say that the implementation of magick is so relevant to player experiences, given how common it is, that potentially changing it should certainly be on the table.

I'd also just like to state that I'm not trying to jump down your throat, wizturbo! Just defending an idea.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 26, 2016, 02:24:53 PM
I just don't want people to mistake the perceived instability of magick as actual instability under the current setting.  If people want to argue that the setting should change, I guess that's okay.  But it's just like saying Zalanthas should have a rain forest, or muls should be able to have babies.  It might be worth changing, and there could be IC reasons for those changes to occur, but it would be stepping away from the setting as it stands today.

I don't know about the metaphysical claim that Zalanthan magick is stable, at least insofar as the docs are concerned.  The docs do not make a claim one way or the other on the metaphysics of it: it could be stable or it could be unstable.  Even if it is metaphysically stable, I'm of the view that even our magickers (and not just the brainwashed masses) view magick as unpredictable, dangerous, and scary.  (I remember I once asked staff if my magicker could do something [redacted] in the house, and the response I got was: No way!  Magick is scary, dangerous, and unpredictable.  This suggested that even House Oash -- who know the most on this stuff -- view magick as unpredictable and not stable, although you could argue that House Oash doesn't know hardly anything at all or something because apocalypse and lost knowledge...)

What -is- true is that codedly magick is stable, and I'm with those that would love to see a little more of the 'unpredictable' tossed into the code to make it more unstable codedly -- randomize the words, randomize the branches, randomize the effects, etc. etc. -- if not for the metaphysical claim (that magick is actually unstable) at least for playability (so that our magickers' magick does come off as scary, dangerous, and unpredictable.)

Quote from: Asmoth on January 26, 2016, 02:33:16 PM
Do you really want me playing a krathi who has to find a person to cast his fireball of doom at un?

A creature or suitable object, yes.  

Quote from: Asmoth on January 26, 2016, 02:33:16 PM
Nil is needed for some spells.

No it isn't.  It's nice, but it isn't needed.


Part of the reason players OOCly hate on magick so much is that magick users can get codedly powerful by sitting alone in a room somewhere.  Make it so they have to take risks to train some of their more dangerous spells, just like everyone else, and I think you'd see a lot less OOC complaining.

I could support something like "wild magick" IF the consequences could be circumvented by careful play.

For example, if you take time to make careful preparations, gather the proper components, and put yourself in the safest position possible, then things are going to be fine. However, you can cast the same spell without all the extra ritualistic business, but it's a lot riskier, and that risk goes up with power level and with the  of the spell. As you continue to cast without preparation, a hidden skill has a chance of going up, making you less prone to critical fails. Only true masters of magick -- those who have faced the sometimes terrifying negative consequences of their own powers and survived -- can cast the most powerful spells on the fly without any risk to themselves.

That's only if something like "wild magick" was to be implemented. Honestly, I'm fine with the way things are now.

Quote from: Armaddict on January 26, 2016, 02:23:09 PM

Quote from: manonfire on January 26, 2016, 02:11:11 PM
After reading this thread and giving it careful consideration, I have decided I will continue to play my magicker however the fuck I want.

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpnpsfMoLY1qd8t4mo1_500.gif)

That's well and good, this thread is less focused on the players of mages and more on how people treat mages, why, and whether that needs adjustment (with ideas on how to make that adjustment easier).

If you roll back through the thread, you'll find that it's both. It's also the case that last 27 times this subject has been discussed.

Honestly if you didn't need to branch water to water II to water III to finally get Water IV.  The one usefulness spell you want, then I wouldn't mind taking away NIL.

But as it sits now you gotta grind through a bunch of bullshit (in some classes) to even get the good spells.

But that also could have to do with magick hardly changing in forever.  I think a lot of spells need to be removed or changed, just like if nil has no effect, why does that vivaduan start a wet tshirt contest even at a no effect cast?

I think I would cum in my pants if someone actually redid magick and got rid of the fluff spells that do nothing and made the branching make more sense or take out branching in general and just make magick a skill like weapons.

Don't take away muh fluff spells. They're actually my favorite spells in the game.

Quote from: Beethoven on January 26, 2016, 02:44:55 PM
Don't take away muh fluff spells. They're actually my favorite spells in the game.

Fine, but why do I have to work to earn a fluff spell? If anything make people start with the fluff spells and work up to the good shit.

But I still think magick should be a skill and not an individual spell by spell thing.

I can kill you with a single cast of fireball of doom, but wait while I exhaust myself to raise the temperature in the room...

You take more damage learning to ride by falling off your mount than you do fully branching most magick guilds.

Magick is a grind, but it's less of a grind than any other in the game except maybe tailoring. The only thing that makes it remotely fair is how terminally boring it is.

Either remove nil so Magickers have to go out in the world and practice like real people, or make it so casting at Nil has a chance of failing and blowing yourself up.

Like with Advanced Weapon Skills, the first thought on seeing a fully branched magicker should be "Wow, they're so powerful and worthy of respect!" Not "Wow, what kind of twinky shit have they been up to?" That's a problem.

Also this:

Quote from: Beethoven on January 26, 2016, 02:44:55 PM
Don't take away muh fluff spells. They're actually my favorite spells in the game.

Quote from: Desertman on January 26, 2016, 12:18:47 PM

Quote from: Delirium on January 26, 2016, 12:01:30 PM

Quote from: Jave on January 26, 2016, 03:11:46 AM
Personally (read: having nothing to do with my being on staff) I'd prefer if mages had no ground to go to. No elementalist quarter. No gemmed. No tolerant tribes or settlements. If you go magick you put it in the closet, go rouge, or get murdered like sorcerers and psions.

ETA: And if you didn't hunt and kill other opposing elementalists your elementals killed you. Welcome to magick: no friends allowed.

I hope you realize how incredibly boring, isolating, and awful that sounds to play. Not to mention very black and white; strict either/or scenarios are very opposite of actual human nature.

I think we need to remember that IC mistrust or hatred of magick is one thing; OOCly it should still be a role that is enjoyable.

I think it sounds awesome in every way imaginable.

To each his own.

Like Desertman, I find that awesome in every way imaginable -- but then again I've never played a mage who wasn't in the closet or completely rouge and hunted with the exception of one tribal mage and even then staff at the time told me they were a bit worried I was being too isolated from my tribe in light of my character's nature. In that case I split the baby by refusing to do anything of a magickal nature around my tribemates unless something(s) was about to be severely murdered.

The reason I played mages this way goes back to something Desertman alluded to earlier: You simply cannot have magick be both a familiar everyday soft social RP kind of aspect of the game ... and also have it be the subject of intense suspicion and fear. We aren't frightened or even wary of things that we understand, and are used to -- even if we really should be. It's just a hang up of human psychology.

You should, statistically, be very wary of the gun in your home. It's a tool with no other purpose than to murder things and the simple fact of it being there puts you in more danger on average than if it wasn't. -- But you've been around guns your whole life. You know how they work. You've seen them, heard the gunshot, and smelled the gunpowder from a spent casing for years. They just aren't scary anymore. Even when your friend accidentally shoots himself in the face while trying to clean one, they still aren't scary. He just had bad luck. It's ... just the way we are I think.

So I feel like trying to have magick be scary and feared, while also trying to have mages be commonplace and accepted in society is a square peg trying to cram into a round hole.

I love the magick in Armageddon, but my personal preference is to go in for the frightening unknown theme.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 02:50:21 PM
You take more damage learning to ride by falling off your mount than you do fully branching most magick guilds.

Magick is a grind, but it's less of a grind than any other in the game except maybe tailoring. The only thing that makes it remotely fair is how terminally boring it is.

Either remove nil so Magickers have to go out in the world and practice like real people, or make it so casting at Nil has a chance of failing and blowing yourself up.

Like with Advanced Weapon Skills, the first thought on seeing a fully branched magicker should be "Wow, they're so powerful and worthy of respect!" Not "Wow, what kind of twinky shit have they been up to?" That's a problem.

True statements and good ideas.

Quote from: Jave on January 26, 2016, 03:07:30 PM

Quote from: Desertman on January 26, 2016, 12:18:47 PM

Quote from: Delirium on January 26, 2016, 12:01:30 PM

Quote from: Jave on January 26, 2016, 03:11:46 AM
Personally (read: having nothing to do with my being on staff) I'd prefer if mages had no ground to go to. No elementalist quarter. No gemmed. No tolerant tribes or settlements. If you go magick you put it in the closet, go rouge, or get murdered like sorcerers and psions.

ETA: And if you didn't hunt and kill other opposing elementalists your elementals killed you. Welcome to magick: no friends allowed.

I hope you realize how incredibly boring, isolating, and awful that sounds to play. Not to mention very black and white; strict either/or scenarios are very opposite of actual human nature.

I think we need to remember that IC mistrust or hatred of magick is one thing; OOCly it should still be a role that is enjoyable.

I think it sounds awesome in every way imaginable.

To each his own.

Like Desertman, I find that awesome in every way imaginable -- but then again I've never played a mage who wasn't in the closet or completely rouge and hunted with the exception of one tribal mage and even then staff at the time told me they were a bit worried I was being too isolated from my tribe in light of my character's nature. In that case I split the baby by refusing to do anything of a magickal nature around my tribemates unless something(s) was about to be severely murdered.

The reason I played mages this way goes back to something Desertman alluded to earlier: You simply cannot have magick be both a familiar everyday soft social RP kind of aspect of the game ... and also have it be the subject of intense suspicion and fear. We aren't frightened or even wary of things that we understand, and are used to -- even if we really should be. It's just a hang up of human psychology.

You should, statistically, be very wary of the gun in your home. It's a tool with no other purpose than to murder things and the simple fact of it being there puts you in more danger on average than if it wasn't. -- But you've been around guns your whole life. You know how they work. You've seen them, heard the gunshot, and smelled the gunpowder from a spent casing for years. They just aren't scary anymore. Even when your friend accidentally shoots himself in the face while trying to clean one, they still aren't scary. He just had bad luck. It's ... just the way we are I think.

So I feel like trying to have magick be scary and feared, while also trying to have mages be commonplace and accepted in society is a square peg trying to cram into a round hole.

I love the magick in Armageddon, but my personal preference is to go in for the frightening unknown theme.

So talk to the people with the juice and get it changed.

I can't really ever recall a time when I was playing this game that staff needed popular opinion to change something.

In fact, no offense, it normally was like, We are changing this, this is how it works now, don't like it? GET FUCKT!

Heh.

Rouge mages, they're the best.

They cast spells like 'MAKEOVER' and 'GLOWING FLUSH'.  Their most powerful spell is 'PAINLESS MASCARA REMOVAL' which is a fourth tier spell and very OP.

It's no wonder they're hunted across the Known.

:-*

Quote from: Jave

The reason I played mages this way goes back to something Desertman alluded to earlier: You simply cannot have magick be both a familiar everyday soft social RP kind of aspect of the game ... and also have it be the subject of intense suspicion and fear. We aren't frightened or even wary of things that we understand, and are used to -- even if we really should be. It's just a hang up of human psychology.

You should, statistically, be very wary of the gun in your home. It's a tool with no other purpose than to murder things and the simple fact of it being there puts you in more danger on average than if it wasn't. -- But you've been around guns your whole life. You know how they work. You've seen them, heard the gunshot, and smelled the gunpowder from a spent casing for years. They just aren't scary anymore. Even when your friend accidentally shoots himself in the face while trying to clean one, they still aren't scary. He just had bad luck. It's ... just the way we are I think.

So I feel like trying to have magick be scary and feared, while also trying to have mages be commonplace and accepted in society is a square peg trying to cram into a round hole.

I love the magick in Armageddon, but my personal preference is to go in for the frightening unknown theme.

Yes! Exactly. If we want mages to be feared, we need to change things so they have a reason to be. The unknown is the key. People fear what they don't understand. We OOCly understand what mages can do; and any reasonable PC will grow, in time, to ICly understand what mages can do. "This is the third manifested magicker I've come across in this job. And I see gemmed all the time at the Gaj. Nothing's happened to me yet, and it's been years. Nothing to fear!"

Right now, mages are as scary to me as a half-giant: they can kill me right now if they wanted to, but they probably won't, and I'm in no danger unless the half-giant decides to attack me. Like a half-giant, I know exactly what the mage can do to me.

We can talk about docs all we like. People will play, and characters will act, according to how things actually are. The best thing to do is to actually back up the docs with gameplay.

And the best way to introduce conflict and fun would be to make it so the mage themselves is also fearful of their powers' consequences: what might happen to the people they care about, what might happen to themselves.

Arm has disease code just fine. Make some that are contagious and start out with magickers, and you've got your reason right there.

Quote from: Patuk on January 26, 2016, 03:22:31 PM
Arm has disease code just fine. Make some that are contagious and start out with magickers, and you've got your reason right there.

Yep! I remember docs referencing the commoner's belief that being near magickers will disease you. Why not make it a reality?

Make Disease A, a contagious form, and give it to magickers. Non-magickers that get infected become non-contagious carriers.

Quote from: Asmoth on January 26, 2016, 03:13:24 PM
So talk to the people with the juice and get it changed.

I can't really ever recall a time when I was playing this game that staff needed popular opinion to change something.

In fact, no offense, it normally was like, We are changing this, this is how it works now, don't like it? GET FUCKT!

Heh.

I don't go in for taking what I personally find fun and hammering everyone else over the head with it as if my preferences must dominate all  :P

Some players really like the gemmed scene, a lot. -- It's not my bag. I never played a character in Allanak. All my PC's were Tuluki, tribals, or Luirites but that's because I didn't want to play in a city where mages were accepted. I preferred the shunned and in fear of your life motif.

Armageddon is a big enough sandbox to let people who like different things experience different things.

---

I do miss Tuluk though. Precisely because it was a city-state you could play in without having mages walking around and sitting at the bar next to you (openly anyway!).

Quote from: LauraMars on January 26, 2016, 03:17:07 PM
Rouge mages, they're the best.

They cast spells like 'MAKEOVER' and 'GLOWING FLUSH'.  Their most powerful spell is 'PAINLESS MASCARA REMOVAL' which is a fourth tier spell and very OP.

It's no wonder they're hunted across the Known.

:-*

cast mon un CLOTHES BEAM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 02:50:21 PM
You take more damage learning to ride by falling off your mount than you do fully branching most magick guilds.

Magick is a grind, but it's less of a grind than any other in the game except maybe tailoring. The only thing that makes it remotely fair is how terminally boring it is.

Either remove nil so Magickers have to go out in the world and practice like real people, or make it so casting at Nil has a chance of failing and blowing yourself up.

Like with Advanced Weapon Skills, the first thought on seeing a fully branched magicker should be "Wow, they're so powerful and worthy of respect!" Not "Wow, what kind of twinky shit have they been up to?" That's a problem.

Also this:

Quote from: Beethoven on January 26, 2016, 02:44:55 PM
Don't take away muh fluff spells. They're actually my favorite spells in the game.

"Real people" (meaning, non-mages, if I understand you right) don't have to go out in the world to practice. They can practice in the relative safety of their apartments and clan sparring halls. As it stands presently, you *cannot* use un on aggressive spells that require a target, in the city, on anyone, without being immediately crimflagged. This includes being inside the relative safety of your temple, and it includes casting it on yourself as the target.

So unless you want to do what most other PCs do NOT have to do - which is go out and find an NPC to attack - which is optional but not required for everyone OTHER than mages - you have to use nil.

Quote from: Lizzie on January 26, 2016, 03:32:34 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 02:50:21 PM
You take more damage learning to ride by falling off your mount than you do fully branching most magick guilds.

Magick is a grind, but it's less of a grind than any other in the game except maybe tailoring. The only thing that makes it remotely fair is how terminally boring it is.

Either remove nil so Magickers have to go out in the world and practice like real people, or make it so casting at Nil has a chance of failing and blowing yourself up.

Like with Advanced Weapon Skills, the first thought on seeing a fully branched magicker should be "Wow, they're so powerful and worthy of respect!" Not "Wow, what kind of twinky shit have they been up to?" That's a problem.

Also this:

Quote from: Beethoven on January 26, 2016, 02:44:55 PM
Don't take away muh fluff spells. They're actually my favorite spells in the game.

"Real people" (meaning, non-mages, if I understand you right) don't have to go out in the world to practice. They can practice in the relative safety of their apartments and clan sparring halls. As it stands presently, you *cannot* use un on aggressive spells that require a target, in the city, on anyone, without being immediately crimflagged. This includes being inside the relative safety of your temple, and it includes casting it on yourself as the target.

So unless you want to do what most other PCs do NOT have to do - which is go out and find an NPC to attack - which is optional but not required for everyone OTHER than mages - you have to use nil.

Yeah this is true, I once cast a harmful spell in my own temple with permission and it turned into me begging for my life from a Templar... Wtf crimcode!

Quote from: Jave

Armageddon is a big enough sandbox to let people who like different things experience different things.

Is it? I'd argue that no matter where you're playing in Armageddon, you're going to run into magick eventually. If you're in Allanak, gemmed are all over the place. If you're in Luir's, you'll find them there too. If you're a wasteland wanderer, you'll run into rogues (and gemmed)...

It's the popularity of magick roles that makes their interactions with the rest of the playerbase so critical to get right. As it stands, they're ubiquitous, plot-dominating and there's pretty much one way to interact with them: "here's this powerful walking weapon that everyone else tolerates. If I'm too overt in my dislike for them, I'll be smacked down by the authorities or targeted by the powerful walking weapons themselves. I will mildly dislike them but tolerate them."

Sparring is attacking other PCs. At least that way you're interacting with someone else.

I can spar indefinitely. I love the Sparring Hall RP, doing drills, the banter between PCs. It's interaction that helps me build up my character's personality. It's fun.

I can't play the magick grind for more than a week without wanting to suicide. That's a beef I have with the current magick code, and how I think it's unfun.

Nil casting isn't relative safety. It's complete safety. A magicker can obtain full power, become practically untouchable, at no risk to themselves at all. If a warrior could sit alone in an apartment, type >kill with no target once an hour, and in 10 days come out fully branched with max offense and defense, I would hate that too. But they can't. They have to work for it, one way or another. We think of some of them as twinks, but the very nature of Magick makes it look like a cheat.

Nil encourages magickers to isolate themselves, which is good for the theme (and me, since I don't have to see them) but bad for their fun level. It also encourages magickers to obtain full power before "introducing" themselves to the world. While this makes magick dangerous, I also think it encourages the apathy of "Well, nothing I can do to stop this magicker, so whatever, just shrug and hope they're not an asshat" that myself and others appear to have towards the roles. So overall, I think Nil is a negative influence on Magickers fitting in with the rest of the game. It's harming both magickers and mundanes' level of fun.

If you get crim-flagged by casting an offensive spell in a temple, I think that's something that would have to change even if Nil wasn't removed. Fear that your fellow Elementalist might be a fucking whackjob who decides to try a new weave on you should be a fear magickers should have, just like the rest of us have to worry if our girlfriend is going to try backstab on us, or Runner Grimstump is going to forget to turn mercy on.

Quote from: Large Hero on January 26, 2016, 03:36:15 PM

Quote from: Jave

Armageddon is a big enough sandbox to let people who like different things experience different things.

Is it?

... Yes?

Magick is a part of Armageddon. You are going to run into it eventually. Very true. How you want to run into it is where the room is.
If you want to sit down at the bar and have a social chat with a mage in an everyday life setting Allanak is your city. If you'd like to have your encounters with magick be frightening life threatening ordeals you used to have Tuluk, but now you've got certain less magick friendly tribes and Luirs and of course wasteland wandering.

If you want to never run into magick at all, you need to play a different game. I didn't say it was big enough to let people experience everything.

I've played magickers who shunned the Nil reach, and it was a much more enjoyable experience.  However, that particular character was Gemmed... Playing a rogue under the same rules would be a lot more challenging if you want to keep it secret.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 04:57:07 AM

Quote from: Vwest on January 26, 2016, 12:34:16 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 25, 2016, 08:42:44 PM
I'm also saddened whenever an interesting character manifests because they just become a gimmick.

That isn't really a fair statement.

Also because I have a bit a time, let me explain why it is a fair statement.

You sound bitter.

It might be you've had enough bad experiences, or seen that very narrow spectrum of things happen enough times that you're sold on it being absolute. I've seen the opposite time and time again, where interesting characters are forced to adapt to and endure the change, some rising above it to scrape together the scraps of their former life and others... they aren't so fortunate, succumbing to the self-horror, the oppression and the fear.

That isn't to say the gimmick thing doesn't happen, but slapping the label on everyone and slamming the door? It is unfair.

Quote from: Desertman on January 26, 2016, 10:04:47 AM
That's pretty much the game.

That's pretty hyperbolic.

You could go back and delete almost everything in that post, leave the last few bits and it'd be about spot on, though.

Quote from: Asmoth on January 26, 2016, 02:33:16 PM
Do you really want me playing a krathi who has to find a person to cast his fireball of doom at un?

Nil is needed for some spells.

Our stalwart chalton companions are prepared to take one for the team on this.

What's good for the grebber is good for the 'gicker, too.

I love how multiple people have defaulted to "oh well a magicker clearly ruffled your feathers" or "You must have had bad experience" when they apparently can't accept someone has a difference of opinion.

Take the opinion at face value. Stop trying to devalue it by assuming stupid shit about the person with the opinion.

I, too, think the 'lol butthurt' tactic has no place on these forums.

To be fair to them, I am little bitter over the laser light show  ::) It's a prime example of how Magick as a Theme and a Mechanic can shit over everyone else's fun, turning what would have been a wholesome and bloody event into something contrived and frustrating. (Don't forget the fire seeds or mass magickal disarmings!)

I find Magick uninteresting to play, uninteresting to play around, and uninteresting to speculate on (except for why it sucks ;)). It always comes across as a forced contrivance.

From an meta plotting standpoint, Magick is a retarding force. No need to think about investing in new technologies or supplies, we'll just have a magicker summon something. Don't try and change the political landscape because you have zero chance of triumphing over the magickally-imbued powers that be. Don't infiltrate spies in to organizations, just have undetectable drovians or psions do the work for you. Every plot is at risk of falling prey to "Well, let's just have Amos come out of his spellcasting hideyhole and do it for us."

Magick apologists on the GDB scare me more than magickers in game because I'm afraid they're going to hoodwink us all into thinking casual Magick is something good for the game.


To try and get us back on topic:

Magickers should be feared in Allanak. They should also be resented. Why? Because they fucking cheat. They do. They're gross and unnatural and weird, but they still have powers that are normally reserved for the servants of God. And when they get uppity about their status or mundanes get,Tek-forbid, comfortable with those powers... that's when you should start grinding your teeth. Magickers are walking reminders that You Are Trivial. The Gemmed temples don't burn down every forty years because commoners think they sour the beer or make peoples' dicks fall off, they burn down because those things have a life of security and relative comfort and privilege simply because they can do a few tricks.

Northerners and Tribals have very different mindsets, of course. Of the big three (Allanak, Tuluk, and Tribals) my preferred are the tribals, if only because a lot of work has been done by Staff and players to make tribal-mages more than just a set of spells.

Everytime I have tried to play a d elf or tribal mate I'm told, there are no openings right now.

And I've only see a few of them.

Quote from: Asmoth on January 26, 2016, 06:04:23 PM
Everytime I have tried to play a d elf or tribal mate I'm told, there are no openings right now.

And I've only see a few of them.

> scan

Quote from: Synthesis on January 26, 2016, 06:16:17 PM

Quote from: Asmoth on January 26, 2016, 06:04:23 PM
Everytime I have tried to play a d elf or tribal mate I'm told, there are no openings right now.

And I've only see a few of them.

> scan

This made me laugh, I have to admit.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 06:01:16 PM
From an meta plotting standpoint, Magick is a retarding force. No need to think about investing in new technologies or supplies, we'll just have a magicker summon something. Don't try and change the political landscape because you have zero chance of triumphing over the magickally-imbued powers that be. Don't infiltrate spies in to organizations, just have undetectable drovians or psions do the work for you. Every plot is at risk of falling prey to "Well, let's just have Amos come out of his spellcasting hideyhole and do it for us."

You can be a force for change in this...  Roleplay the backlash that should come from utilizing these magickers.  Don't deal with the Templar that has a bunch of Gemmed following her around, instead go bribe the one that doesn't.  You know that Oashi that always has magickers around him?  Well maybe your merchant shouldn't go out of their way to sell to them.  Maybe they're always out of stock of whatever goods the Oashi want, and while super apologetic and polite, they're thinking "Fuck you magicker lover...I'm going to sell my ware to those self respecting Borsails instead."  That kind of thing rarely happens, because everyone wants to "win" and doing something that might create conflict with magick-wielding enemies is scary.  As a result, many of the expected consequences for being friendly with magickers is downplayed.

If I had my druthers, I'd lean on staff to make this more apparent via animations by helping create the perception of these negative consequences.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 26, 2016, 06:30:56 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 06:01:16 PM
From an meta plotting standpoint, Magick is a retarding force. No need to think about investing in new technologies or supplies, we'll just have a magicker summon something. Don't try and change the political landscape because you have zero chance of triumphing over the magickally-imbued powers that be. Don't infiltrate spies in to organizations, just have undetectable drovians or psions do the work for you. Every plot is at risk of falling prey to "Well, let's just have Amos come out of his spellcasting hideyhole and do it for us."

You can be a force for change in this...  Roleplay the backlash that should come from utilizing these magickers.  Don't deal with the Templar that has a bunch of Gemmed following her around, instead go bribe the one that doesn't.  You know that Oashi that always has magickers around him?  Well maybe your merchant shouldn't go out of their way to sell to them.  Maybe they're always out of stock of whatever goods the Oashi want, and while super apologetic and polite, they're thinking "Fuck you magicker lover...I'm going to sell my ware to those self respecting Borsails instead."  That kind of thing rarely happens, because everyone wants to "win" and doing something that might create conflict with magick-wielding enemies is scary.  As a result, many of the expected consequences for being friendly with magickers is downplayed.

Then Oashi hires the gem loving templar to silence your impudent moanings.

MANTIS HEAD.

It's more cost-effective to dissuade people from playing magickers than to be a martyr in game trying to fight them. You can't win a conflict with magickers and their allies because they have too much stacked in their favor. Maybe if I was an AoD officer again, or a noble or Templar. But if you're just a commoner, the only sensible course of action is avoidance.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 25, 2016, 01:36:29 PM
I just don't RP with magick and hope they extend the same courtesy to me.

Quote from: Asmoth on January 26, 2016, 06:33:14 PM
Then Oashi hires the gem loving templar to silence your impudent moanings.

MANTIS HEAD.

Okay?  Then roll up another character and do it again.  Or better yet, play a sponsored role where that Templar is going to get into a lot more trouble fucking with you.

Play a Borsail noble and use your enormous wealth in anti-Gemmed campaigns.  Subsidize merchants with generous gifts who refuse to deal with the Gemmed.  Makes friends with the Templars who have similar beliefs.  Make allies with House Fale, which historically has very anti-magicker views as well.  Hire thieves to steal from the Gemmed.  Poison their water.  If the Gemmed start behaving themselves, make shit up and spread false rumors about them to fan the hate flames again.  

If a Templar tries to intervene, now you've got an awesome rivalry to work with.  Use your massive political clout to try and make that Templar your bitch.  Maybe you'll get yourself killed all over again...  I promise it'll be a fun and memorable character though!

Why should we have to sacrifice our time and characters to make up for the short-comings and choices of others?

Magick-favoring players will play how they want to play. That's fine. I'm not going to go out of my way to make things onerous for them.

They're like sinkholes, just another fixture of the Armageddon landscape. Either you have the skills to deal with them or you just hope you don't walk in to one. I'm not going to roll up a PC to specifically ride into a sinkhole any more than I'm going to roll one up to specifically piss on the Gemmed in game.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 06:47:25 PM
Why should we have to sacrifice our time and characters to make up for the short-comings and choices of others?

Magick-favoring players will play how they want to play. That's fine. I'm not going to go out of my way to make things onerous for them.

You aren't sacrificing your time or characters...  you're role playing.  You just aren't choosing to role play a character that follows path of least resistance at every opportunity.  You have principles, and you stick to those principles, even if it means you get closer to the Mantis Head for doing so.

And BadSkeelz...  I think you're under estimating how enjoyable having an opposition is for magick-favoring characters.  Rivalries are by far the most fun thing you can possibly have in Armageddon, you aren't ruining anyone's day for hating on their magick-loving character, you're probably making their day.

Then we get a thread in a few months from disgruntled ex-Magickers saying how they can't get anything done in game cause of the hate.

Disengagement and avoidance is the best strategy, IC and out.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 26, 2016, 06:51:45 PM
And BadSkeelz...  I think you're under estimating how enjoyable having an opposition is for magick-favoring characters.  Rivalries are by far the most fun thing you can possibly have in Armageddon, you aren't ruining anyone's day for hating on their magick-loving character, you're probably making their day.

Again, I'm not going to give someone the satisfaction of a martyr to beat on. Certainly not when they've picked an (intentionally) overpowered guild that likely has very dangerous friends. There's a reason the Gaj has an echo of people moving away from the bar when a Gemmed takes a seat. They're not worth engaging.

I typed up a big long thing but ultimately realized that I only really have three short things to say.

1. I may be a magick apologist on the GDB, but I'm not for casual magick. That kind of cheesy crap is why I don't play other MUDs. I think a lot of my fellow magick advocates feel the same way. It only feels like magick if it's treated like magick.

2. Lightshow RPTs aside (and I hated that DBZ-esque stuff as much as the next guy), I guess I don't understand the complaints that everyone is constantly getting magick shoved down their throats. If you are in a clan or role that requires dealing with magick, then yeah, you're going to have to deal with magick. If you are a super long-lived character with their fingers in every pie, you are going to have to deal with pretty much everything in your lifetime. But most of my PCs have never dealt with magickal shit. Sure, they've seen magickers, and maybe seen a couple of residual magickal effects out in the wilderness, but no casting, no magickal plots, no being forced to work with magickers. If magick "cheapened" their skills it was a total non-factor because magick was not something they had to actively compete with, ever. I guess your experience has been different, but maybe you were just unusually unlucky and I was unusually lucky.

3. I actually don't mind disengagement and avoidance. I think things should be more like that in Allanak, rather than than fiery rage. Because like it or not, gemmers are a tool of the state and of one of the most powerful Noble Houses, and um, they can also do freaking magick. I know a lot of people want to see them as powerless and oppressed (more than everyone else already is), but I think it fits the setting more if they're just people you wish didn't exist and wish you didn't have to see, but you're probably going to leave very well alone for fear of being hexed. This sets them apart in flavor from other undesirables like breeds and elves.

If as a mage I started with all but a few spells left to branch, I would gladly give up the nil reach. I'd rather be immediately able to do the things I want to do as opposed to nil casting a bunch first. It would be great because you would just naturally progress in a spell as you needed to make use of it, and you wouldn't have to find some cave or temple to hide in while grinding for the spells you need to function independently.

Quote from: lostinspace on January 26, 2016, 08:16:24 PM
If as a mage I started with all but a few spells left to branch, I would gladly give up the nil reach. I'd rather be immediately able to do the things I want to do as opposed to nil casting a bunch first. It would be great because you would just naturally progress in a spell as you needed to make use of it, and you wouldn't have to find some cave or temple to hide in while grinding for the spells you need to function independently.

LOL.  Okay.  That's like, every PC, if you substitute "skills" for "spells."

Welcome to Armageddon.

Quote from: lostinspace on January 26, 2016, 08:16:24 PM
If as a mage I started with all but a few spells left to branch, I would gladly give up the nil reach. I'd rather be immediately able to do the things I want to do as opposed to nil casting a bunch first. It would be great because you would just naturally progress in a spell as you needed to make use of it, and you wouldn't have to find some cave or temple to hide in while grinding for the spells you need to function independently.

I wonder. Would that be so bad? You'd have more magickers running around, sure, but they wouldn't all be quite so annoying since they won't be rocking mon spells at 10 days played. Gives you more chance to claim their skulls for the skull throne interact with them at some level other than "I am fully branched, acknowledge me!"

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 08:31:09 PM
I wonder. Would that be so bad? You'd have more magickers running around, sure, but they wouldn't all be quite so annoying since they won't be rocking mon spells at 10 days played. Gives you more chance to claim their skulls for the skull throne interact with them at some level other than "I am fully branched, acknowledge me!"

Every mage class is going to be played the same way until they develop their critical safety spellset to mon.  (That is--as far away from any potential PK situation as reasonably possible.)  The only thing you can do is make the timeframe to reaching that critical safety spellset shorter or longer.  At any rate, the end-result will be the same:  a seemingly-fully-branched magicker who is moderately difficult to kill by mundane means when sufficiently prepared.  That's basically all you're -ever- going to see in a no-law zone, unless you've found a noob or happened upon a very risk-comfortable veteran player in the early stages of skilling up, because everyone knows what the deal is:  until you get that critical safety spellset up and running, you're like chalton-level on the PK scale.

Quote from: Synthesis on January 26, 2016, 08:40:17 PM
Every mage class is going to be played the same way until they develop their critical safety spellset to mon.  (That is--as far away from any potential PK situation as reasonably possible.)

:D

Could be solved by having a magick skill that advanced as slow as combat skills.

Then there would be less insta-amazing mages.

I think that would increase the problem that originally spawned this thread, actually - mages being buddy-buddies with mundanes. A slower spell grind would encourage more cautious play. They may just hunker down to spamcast even more, or they would try and interact with the rest of the population to secure protection and company for that grind. I guess the latter wouldn't be so bad since they'd be weak and we could kill them more.

I'd rather all skills leveled up as fast as mage skills. Maybe we wouldn't all play so cautiously then.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 09:27:28 PM
I think that would increase the problem that originally spawned this thread, actually - mages being buddy-buddies with mundanes. A slower spell grind would encourage more cautious play. They may just hunker down to spamcast even more, or they would try and interact with the rest of the population to secure protection and company for that grind. I guess the latter wouldn't be so bad since they'd be weak and we could kill them more.

I'd rather all skills leveled up as fast as mage skills. Maybe we wouldn't all play so cautiously then.

Well, that's my one problem with the way Arm has been in the past, and sorta some praise for how it is now...

Lemme explain.

In the past you could be friends with a sekret magicker for a long ass time.  And have no idea they were a magicker.  Then they become a magicker and if you don't immediately run to the nearest templar, you're a bad player.

Now it seems to have slipped into the realm of PC policing versus Staff RP policing, which I'm fine with, but it feels like the control has slipped too far towards (We don't govern your RP) because I happen upon mundanes being buddy buddy with magickers all the time.

So I guess like anything there needs to be balance.  Do I expect you to instantly condemn your best friend to death by Templar or Mob because you find out they are a wicked abomination with no ill intent towards you?  Nah.

Do I expect everyone to hang out near the Water temple and try to become friends with every facewrap that walks in because food and water for free is cool?  No.

Honestly, I think some of the documentation needs to be a little more "loose" than "THIS MUST BE THIS WAY." and then people could roleplay it appropriately, to their pleasure or demise.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

I think I Do. I also don't really think it's any worse now than it was months or years ago. The docs seem fine. I think players are just inclined to play to the exception in all things, which here manifests as a high number of mundane/magick PC pairings.

Of course, we could always make targeting a Gemmed with a say or emote a crim-flagging action.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 09:46:12 PM
I think I Do. I also don't really think it's any worse now than it was months or years ago. The docs seem fine. I think players are just inclined to play to the exception in all things, which here manifests as a high number of mundane/magick PC pairings.

Of course, we could always make targeting a Gemmed with a say or emote a crim-flagging action.

Lord Borealis Oash, stuck in jail again for ordering his water mage to go to the estate and fill up the casks while in public. Drat.

Or Lord Borealis' aide. Ugh, that'd suck.

Are we really on to mage-hate in the GDB hate cycle, already?  I thought it would take a little longer..

..oh, that's right.  We were able to skip over Gypsies, what with a giant friggin' magic volcano reducing them and their water-slides to ash!!!

I would have expected a lot more mage-love on the GDB for that feat!  I'd vote Tektolnes for Highlord, but..he kinda sorta already is and putting his magick-might and magic-wielding suppressors in all yah faces to let you all know that this world is really a Witch's World!

A kill with magick is no true kill.

Quote from: Synthesis on January 26, 2016, 08:20:53 PM

Quote from: lostinspace on January 26, 2016, 08:16:24 PM
If as a mage I started with all but a few spells left to branch, I would gladly give up the nil reach. I'd rather be immediately able to do the things I want to do as opposed to nil casting a bunch first. It would be great because you would just naturally progress in a spell as you needed to make use of it, and you wouldn't have to find some cave or temple to hide in while grinding for the spells you need to function independently.

LOL.  Okay.  That's like, every PC, if you substitute "skills" for "spells."

Welcome to Armageddon.

Yeah, which is why I wouldn't feel the need for a nil reach any more, because I can progress in my spells just like a mundane progresses in their skills.

I'd just like to point out that by documentation, how much you fear a 'gicker has a lot to do with their element, almost as much as if they're gemmed. A water mage is explicitly someone valued on caravans by documentation. And it makes sense. In a desert world, someone who can both heal and provide water is a great friend to have. Whirans make excellent messengers. Drovians are known for their spying capacity. Krathi can kill you in an instant. Nilazi are abominations unworthy of being gemmed, who make the dead dance to their bidding. Sorcerers are literally known as defilers.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be wary of 'gickers. What I'm saying is that most people wouldn't lynch a Vivaduan even if they could do it with no risk and no one finding out. They're simply too useful as walking oasises. I personally am VERY wary of Krathi when I play mundanes, but I'll be relatively accommodating with a Viv. And I think I'm playing to documentation when I do. I want someone able to heal me when that poison taints my blood. I want that Drovian to spy on my enemies for me, and keep the secrets he knows about me. I want the Krathi to not be far behind when its time to kill a Mek. Now, does that mean I should treat them like equals publicly? No. But its not necessarily me being tolerant and nice when I sweet talk the Rukkian. No more than when I invite the merchant with the fat purse into my apartment to discuss a 'business venture.'

Quote from: Asche on January 27, 2016, 12:40:16 AM
I'd just like to point out that by documentation, how much you fear a 'gicker has a lot to do with their element, almost as much as if they're gemmed. A water mage is explicitly someone valued on caravans by documentation. And it makes sense. In a desert world, someone who can both heal and provide water is a great friend to have. Whirans make excellent messengers. Drovians are known for their spying capacity. Krathi can kill you in an instant. Nilazi are abominations unworthy of being gemmed, who make the dead dance to their bidding. Sorcerers are literally known as defilers.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be wary of 'gickers. What I'm saying is that most people wouldn't lynch a Vivaduan even if they could do it with no risk and no one finding out. They're simply too useful as walking oasises. I personally am VERY wary of Krathi when I play mundanes, but I'll be relatively accommodating with a Viv. And I think I'm playing to documentation when I do. I want someone able to heal me when that poison taints my blood. I want that Drovian to spy on my enemies for me, and keep the secrets he knows about me. I want the Krathi to not be far behind when its time to kill a Mek. Now, does that mean I should treat them like equals publicly? No. But its not necessarily me being tolerant and nice when I sweet talk the Rukkian. No more than when I invite the merchant with the fat purse into my apartment to discuss a 'business venture.'

This guy gets it.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 26, 2016, 04:57:43 PM
I've played magickers who shunned the Nil reach, and it was a much more enjoyable experience.  However, that particular character was Gemmed... Playing a rogue under the same rules would be a lot more challenging if you want to keep it secret.

I have done this on every rogue bar one. Makes for some fun and risky times.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 26, 2016, 06:01:16 PM
To be fair to them, I am little bitter over the laser light show  ::)

No one is going to begrudge you that.

I, too, am at least a little bitter over all the time I wasted leading up to that... spectacle.

I think we all are, and I think the staff learned their lesson. So we can probably let it go now.

Quote from: Vwest on January 26, 2016, 05:09:31 PM

Quote from: Desertman on January 26, 2016, 10:04:47 AM
That's pretty much the game.

That's pretty hyperbolic.

You could go back and delete almost everything in that post, leave the last few bits and it'd be about spot on, though.

You are wrong.

I'd be happy if people stopped calling spells "weaves" as a first step.   ;D

Why? I prefer that to spells, especially in the Temple settings. Helps disassociates Magick from Harry Potter Magic.

Isn't it written somewhere that spells are recorded using knots and strings (ala Quipu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu))? I always assumed that was the source of the phrase "weave."

Quote from: seidhr on January 27, 2016, 01:50:01 PM
I'd be happy if people stopped calling spells "weaves" as a first step.   ;D

I played with a water Mage who tried to get me to refer to them as weaves.

I think I pans back to some lame oash noble or something.

Can we also change the Gem to a wizard hat

Quote from: seidhr on January 27, 2016, 01:50:01 PM
I'd be happy if people stopped calling spells "weaves" as a first step.   ;D

I've seen animated elementals and CAM speakers refer to spells as weaves. If there's been some paradigm evolution behind the scenes, it'd be cool if you shared it.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 27, 2016, 01:57:20 PM
Why? I prefer that to spells, especially in the Temple settings. Helps disassociates Magick from Harry Potter Magic.

Isn't it written somewhere that spells are recorded using knots and strings (ala Quipu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu))? I always assumed that was the source of the phrase "weave."

I figured the term weaves got lifted straight out of Wheel of Time.

Oh, maybe. Never read it. Too much magic.

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 02:15:24 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 27, 2016, 01:57:20 PM
Why? I prefer that to spells, especially in the Temple settings. Helps disassociates Magick from Harry Potter Magic.

Isn't it written somewhere that spells are recorded using knots and strings (ala Quipu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu))? I always assumed that was the source of the phrase "weave."

I figured the term weaves got lifted straight out of Wheel of Time.

We have hundreds of things in game lifted right out of other works of literature.

I actually prefer when they say weaves. I like it.

To each his own though.

Sparkly weave.

(http://pixel.brit.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/MermaidHair.jpg)

Quote from: seidhr on January 27, 2016, 01:50:01 PM
I'd be happy if people stopped calling spells "weaves" as a first step.   ;D

I wish new magickers were given some documentation on the basicks of magick.  Especially the gemmed who should have some Gem 101 instruction on what's going on with your new wrestched self beyond... Here's your gem.  Don't take it off.  Now get out of my sight.

It's been brought up before, but in the void of any real guidance player's of magickers need to explain "this, that, and the other things", like branching,  to each other somehow.  So you get "path", "weave", "horn", and "offering" because... that's what they heard someone else call it and it's not like anyone is telling them different or there's anyone to ask or anyone is ICly telling them it's not "X" it's "Y".   Oashi Mileage May Vary.

I think Seidhr is just expressing a personal preference. There's no rule against calling spells weaves.

I'm not the biggest fan of the current magic lingo in game either, but it's been the in game trend for the past while now.  Much as half-giants were called "Big" by everyone a few years ago.  Staff were pretty scathing about that too, as I recall. (As a side note, I don't really like it when staff express negative personal preferences on the gdb with their staff accounts. It can carry a lot of weight for new players, and can confuse/frustrate new and old players alike as to what is really expected of them and their roleplay.) 

It's totally possible to start a new trend and vocabulary, though. There are gemmed mage PCs who have and do take up positions of official to semi-official leadership in the game, and that sort of self appointed role would be a good place to start.  Even if there's no clan structure to support them, it isn't strictly necessary.  Corse springs to mind, Corra (before she did what she did), and Moraz.  I really liked their take on the place of gemmed in the game world.

I'm indifferent to what it's called in game, I was just venturing a guess as to where the term weave came from.

I actually like the lack of codified guidance that exists in game surrounding magickal instruction though. The gemmed are not literate, and the elemental temples have no rank structure by design because the state has a vested interest in making sure they don't organise and combine their innate personal power with strength of numbers and coordination.

The temples are basically little more than boarding houses or a ghetto for the gemmed to be shunted away into. Mind you, I fully concede that past iterations of the elementalist quarter were much more grand than that in both architecture and organisation. But we've done away with CAM, and those old grand temples were burned down and modest structures erected in their place to better illustrate the setting I outlined above.

So with no literacy to preserve knowledge in writing, and no structured group to pass it down by word of mouth what are you left with? A tide of ignorance rolling in to endlessly wash away your sand castles of lived experience. In that setup, mages are born and die basically starting from zero and learning what rudimentary abilities they can in that short time. Sometimes you find a mentor with a slight slight edge up on zero to help you, sometimes you don't.

That mentor may or may not have devised names for things and he shares them with you and you repeat them. Maybe you repeat them to someone you're teaching later ... Maybe those words last a few generations before the tide sweeps them away.

I like the organic cycles this produces.

The answer is obvious....let's get on that more widespread literacy thing I bring up every couple of months... ;D

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
Maybe you repeat them to someone you're teaching later ... Maybe those words last a few generations before the tide sweeps them away.

Not that it really matters, but I think the "weaves" and "horns" thing has been etched into the face of the game more permanently than a lot of stuff that tends to be washed away by death and change, since I've been hearing it since as far back as 2008.  (And yes, as MoF mentioned, from animated npcs as well.)

Quote from: Desertman on January 27, 2016, 10:33:46 AM
You are wrong.

no, u r

It would be nice if there was some basic, limited written language available for everyone, if for no other reason than leaving notes for people.

"Hey lover, we've got a contract near Tuluk and I'll be gone and walled for a few weeks. Nothing to worry about." = "Hey, going to Vermont with hubby for the weekend so don't worry I got ganked or something! XOXO~"

I also lament how many cool journals would be left in the game from the myriad of interesting characters that have come and gone, or how much more dynamic the game would be when these journals are nabbed by burglars and sold off to the highest bidder. Or used as blackmail. Or used to thoroughly humiliate someone. Or used as latrine paper because it turns out Sally Salter is boring as hell.

/derail

Quote from: LauraMars on January 27, 2016, 04:29:40 PM

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
Maybe you repeat them to someone you're teaching later ... Maybe those words last a few generations before the tide sweeps them away.

Not that it really matters, but I think the "weaves" and "horns" thing has been etched into the face of the game more permanently than a lot of stuff that tends to be washed away by death and change, since I've been hearing it since as far back as 2008.  (And yes, as MoF mentioned, from animated npcs as well.)

Horns is straight out of the magick help files isn't it?

If you give me widespread literacy, I'll let you touch me Jave. I'll let you touch me like one of your French girls.  :-*


(I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.)

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
I actually like the lack of codified guidance that exists in game surrounding magickal instruction though.

Agreed, except things like...

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
...the elemental temples have no rank structure...

...needs to be known, or the players will, in that vacuum create their own.

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
The temples are basically little more than boarding houses or a ghetto for the gemmed to be shunted away into.

... is not necessarily how the players of the gemmed view it, instead feeling that it's "their turf".  They can leave whenever they want.  Are you going to idly stroll through?  No chance, unless you're lost - then prepare for a welcome that might make the Rinth proud.  As an aside restricting gemmed from renting apartments outside the Quarter should probably be a thing.

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
So with no literacy to preserve knowledge in writing, and no structured group to pass it down by word of mouth what are you left with? A tide of ignorance rolling in to endlessly wash away your sand castles of lived experience. In that setup, mages are born and die basically starting from zero and learning what rudimentary abilities they can in that short time. Sometimes you find a mentor with a slight slight edge up on zero to help you, sometimes you don't.

... except there is a population of other gemmed that the new gemmed should be able to ask about this stuff, not just other players.  (Discuss is cool by the way) It seems like an artificial void of knowledge that stunts the new player of a gemmed PC.  Maybe Player Reports with these sorts of questions are the right path?  But then staff should have some documentation to fall back on.  Like "what do you call this stuff that let's us cast spells except sometimes we just can manage to anymore"?

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
I like the organic cycles this produces.

To be clear, so do I.  It is especially fun when a veteran player wanders into some of the new terminology and is like "what"?  That said, some of the basics of how the world works being completely devoid of documentation is really frustrating to a new player of magicker.  Anyway, I've derailed enough.

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:34:15 PM

Quote from: LauraMars on January 27, 2016, 04:29:40 PM

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
Maybe you repeat them to someone you're teaching later ... Maybe those words last a few generations before the tide sweeps them away.

Not that it really matters, but I think the "weaves" and "horns" thing has been etched into the face of the game more permanently than a lot of stuff that tends to be washed away by death and change, since I've been hearing it since as far back as 2008.  (And yes, as MoF mentioned, from animated npcs as well.)

Horns is straight out of the magick help files isn't it?

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Magick%20Power

You're right. It is!

TIL

Quote from: whitt on January 27, 2016, 04:42:30 PM

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
...the elemental temples have no rank structure...

...needs to be known, or the players will, in that vacuum create their own.

I dunno that this is a bad thing.  People can play a mentor figure to other gemmed mages if they like.  They can even organize some sort of loose structure of study in the Quarter. They might face IC consequences if those in power (templars etc) realize what's going on and disagree with the implementation, but...what's wrong with that?  I don't personally think this sort of roleplay is a bad thing.

I agree that more documentation about the history, IC "feel", and non-structure of the temples would be super nice though.

• More documentaion for the gemmed!

• The problem with teaching in this game is the players that don't actually do it, codedly and/or otherwise. And of course some people who play their roles don't /actually/ have knowledge of the thing they're teaching so I suggest something like, "they begin training" and then fade to the end of training.
and for training of magickal things like why this and why that was explained very well by Jave.

• mundanes who like witches, as I've noticed, sometimes have a reason. Sometimes they're lying through their teeth. Sometimes they don't have a reason. I've noticed plenty of witches reacting accordingly. Mostly with skepticism.

this guy /always/ comes up with new jargon, suckuhs.

Quote from: whitt on January 27, 2016, 04:42:30 PM

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
I actually like the lack of codified guidance that exists in game surrounding magickal instruction though.

Agreed, except things like...

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
...the elemental temples have no rank structure...

...needs to be known, or the players will, in that vacuum create their own.

I agree that this could stand to be spelled out more clearly in the docs. I don't mind players banding together into small groups within the quarter and making some loose pecking order amongst themselves. Creating their own in the vacuum in that sense is fine ... ... but don't expect the game world at large to recognise it as legit. You are in effect, elementary school kids who have started a playground club. You're fine as long as you don't annoy the teachers and come in when recess is over. Trying to coerce other players to join your new union is likewise going to get you slapped around both on and IC and OOC level. IC because you're now trying to make an organisation the state has no interest in you making, OOC because your targeting of only gemmed with the magickal PC glow instead of also trying to lean on NPC's etc and working with us to get a reaction from the virtual world is a bit metagamey.

Quote from: whitt on January 27, 2016, 04:42:30 PM

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
The temples are basically little more than boarding houses or a ghetto for the gemmed to be shunted away into.

... is not necessarily how the players of the gemmed view it, instead feeling that it's "their turf".  They can leave whenever they want.  Are you going to idly stroll through?  No chance, unless you're lost - then prepare for a welcome that might make the Rinth proud.  As an aside restricting gemmed from renting apartments outside the Quarter should probably be a thing.

It's how the players of the gemmed should view it in light of the game setting. Rinth'ing out on someone for being in the elementalist quarter is going to provoke a very strong reaction from the state, because the state has absolutely no interest in mages banding together and forming coalitions. They are powerful enough as individuals. It's a direct threat to the establishment if they start multiplying that power with numbers and group synergy. Not to say that a rinthi with a fresh gem around their neck would be a bad player for acting this way ... They're from the rinth and old habits die hard. But as a player ... they should not be surprised about the reaction they receive for their old habit.

I'd also like it if the gemmed weren't allowed to rent outside of that quarter, as a point of personal preference.

No worries about the derail. We it keeps up a bit longer I'll just split it off into its own thing.

Quote from: LauraMars on January 27, 2016, 04:53:59 PM
I agree that more documentation about the history, IC "feel", and non-structure of the temples would be super nice though.

Annnnd we are back to how the last Witch Love thread ended.

+1 on whitt's -- he puts it well -- suggestion for at least some documentation.  Here's my take on it:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50043.msg912778.html#msg912778

Not too much documentation -- so emergent and organic jargon and things can thrive -- but enough so you don't have cases akin to: "It's dark in this room. No it's not. Yes it is. No it's... staff!  Is it dark in this room?"  (Except modulo with magicky things.)

Whitt's and Jave's thing about temple pecking orders is a case in point.  I remember being told there were 'elders' in the temples.  So I assumed there were elders in the temple, which my character would have know by looking around and seeing elders in the temple.  The fact that there AREN'T elders is something documentation could clarify.

That's different from coming down concrete on terms like 'horn' or 'voice' or (and I think some guidance is needed here) the qualia of magickal casting -- what it's like to cast a spell.  It's a fine balance between too much and too little, and I just think it's a little on the too little side right now -- documentationwise.

With my new gemmers, I always enjoy asking why power levels are called "horns." My favorite response was from a guy who seemed to be making up some silly justification on the spot because he didn't know and hadn't thought much about it. I enjoy the idea of the term being used even when most people (save maybe the Oash nobles) have no idea where it came from anymore.

Yo man, you got any of that widespread literacy?
                              (http://i31.tinypic.com/301kh1l.jpg)

Dude ... Make a thread  :P

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 27, 2016, 01:57:20 PM
Why? I prefer that to spells, especially in the Temple settings. Helps disassociates Magick from Harry Potter Magic.

I am mostly being facetious, I just think it's kind of a weird term that's a euphemism for spells (while referencing the exact same thing). 

Personally I've always enjoyed it more when people talk about it in more abstract ways.  "See if you're able to call upon the sands to form an erdlu for you to ride to Luirs." vs. "Do you know the weave to create an erdlu for the Luirs trip?"

In a mundane context:  "Hey Amos, you any good at knockin' folks down to keep 'em from running away?" vs. "Yo Amos!  You any good at barshin'?"

I recognize it's a sort of necessary evil in some conversations - just a personal preference.

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 05:02:29 PM
I'd also like it if the gemmed weren't allowed to rent outside of that quarter, as a point of personal preference.

This, SO MUCH this. The only time my gemmed ever rented outside the Quarter is when she was literally ordered to temporarily do so by her boss. And we roleplayed the Nenyuki being none too happy about it, but what were they going to do, say no to a Templar?

Then, as soon as the air was clear, back to the gemmed quarter she went.

On the flip side of the coin, mundane burglars really, really should not be targeting the gemmed apartments.

That doesn't mean they'd be safe though, the gemmed have their own criminals to worry about.

Something tells me there won't be a soldier feeling any sympathy for the burglar that gets blasted to smithereens trying to burgle a gemmer. Just what did they expect?

It's not just the immediate, coded dangers (though they definitely exist). It's the very idea of anyone wanting stuff that's been touched by those unnatural weirdos.

Quote from: whitt on January 27, 2016, 02:57:15 PM

Quote from: seidhr on January 27, 2016, 01:50:01 PM
I'd be happy if people stopped calling spells "weaves" as a first step.   ;D

I wish new magickers were given some documentation on the basicks of magick.  Especially the gemmed who should have some Gem 101 instruction on what's going on with your new wrestched self beyond... Here's your gem.  Don't take it off.  Now get out of my sight.

It's been brought up before, but in the void of any real guidance player's of magickers need to explain "this, that, and the other things", like branching,  to each other somehow.  So you get "path", "weave", "horn", and "offering" because... that's what they heard someone else call it and it's not like anyone is telling them different or there's anyone to ask or anyone is ICly telling them it's not "X" it's "Y".   Oashi Mileage May Vary.

I actually like it that way. I can't stand referring to "horns" and "weaves" but don't begrudge someone else wanting to do so. I'm glad we aren't forced to do one or the other, and can simply RP out the discussion if/when anyone gives a shit enough to discuss it ICly.

Yeah, yeah. I'm just stating that this problem has a very obvious solution.

Quote from: seidhr on January 27, 2016, 05:57:16 PM
I am mostly being facetious, I just think it's kind of a weird term that's a euphemism for spells (while referencing the exact same thing). 

Personally I've always enjoyed it more when people talk about it in more abstract ways. 

Your "good" examples sound strangely forced and contrived. Even if weave is a euphemism, I guess I just prefer to the straight-forward "Magick is a tool to be used" approach. Blame my time in the AoD. People talking about magick in the abstract make me just want to smack them in the mouth... which may not be a bad reaction to provoke in-character.

I think how a 'gicker talks about magick should depend on their culture and background.

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 05:02:29 PM
OOC because your targeting of only gemmed with the magickal PC glow instead of also trying to lean on NPC's etc and working with us to get a reaction from the virtual world is a bit metagamey.

Based on the sizes of the Temples (number of beds, room descriptions) there is absolutely no reason to believe there is a large NPC or Virtual presence of Gemmed.  I've always played it that Gemmed are rare, and the fact that they have an entire Quarter dedicated to them has interesting implications...  Was their population larger in the past?  Is the extra real estate there to make that much extra 'quarantine' space?  Targeting PC's to join your little club seems completely reasonable to me based on this.

If you're saying that you'd like these groups to target NPCs, so NPCs can react with the culture you have envisioned for the Gemmed Quarter, I guess that makes sense, but the notion that there is much of a culture in the Gemmed Quarter is a bit of a contradiction to begin with.

A lot of the gemmed quarter is described as dilapidated and ruinous as well, with abandoned houses and rubble everywhere. Always made me wonder.

Quote from: LauraMars on January 27, 2016, 08:15:19 PM
A lot of the gemmed quarter is described as dilapidated and ruinous as well, with abandoned houses and rubble everywhere. Always made me wonder.

And holes blasted in the road all over from magickal experiments gone wrong. I love that the best.

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 05:39:41 PM
Dude ... Make a thread  :P

I'd post in it.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 27, 2016, 08:08:41 PM

Quote from: Jave on January 27, 2016, 05:02:29 PM
OOC because your targeting of only gemmed with the magickal PC glow instead of also trying to lean on NPC's etc and working with us to get a reaction from the virtual world is a bit metagamey.

Based on the sizes of the Temples (number of beds, room descriptions) there is absolutely no reason to believe there is a large NPC or Virtual presence of Gemmed.  I've always played it that Gemmed are rare, and the fact that they have an entire Quarter dedicated to them has interesting implications...  Was their population larger in the past?  Is the extra real estate there to make that much extra 'quarantine' space?  Targeting PC's to join your little club seems completely reasonable to me based on this.

If you're saying that you'd like these groups to target NPCs, so NPCs can react with the culture you have envisioned for the Gemmed Quarter, I guess that makes sense, but the notion that there is much of a culture in the Gemmed Quarter is a bit of a contradiction to begin with.

It kind of sounds like you're trying to posit that the PC gemmed of the city are a sizeable portion of the overall gemmed population, virtual, NPC, or otherwise. I'm preeeeety sure that's not accurate.

But even granting it for the sake of argument ... there are still more NPC gemmed in the elementalist quarter than PC gemmed at any given time. So yes, there's no reason not to target them for your clubhouse as well.

Quote from: Jave on January 28, 2016, 03:12:17 AM

Quote from: wizturbo on January 27, 2016, 08:08:41 PM
Based on the sizes of the Temples (number of beds, room descriptions) there is absolutely no reason to believe there is a large NPC or Virtual presence of Gemmed.  I've always played it that Gemmed are rare, and the fact that they have an entire Quarter dedicated to them has interesting implications...  

It kind of sounds like you're trying to posit that the PC gemmed of the city are a sizeable portion of the overall gemmed population, virtual, NPC, or otherwise. I'm preeeeety sure that's not accurate.

But even granting it for the sake of argument ... there are still more NPC gemmed in the elementalist quarter than PC gemmed at any given time. So yes, there's no reason not to target them for your clubhouse as well.

This goes back to the "base level of documentation" discussion.  There's no level-set of how many vNPC gemmed are around in the Quarter.  Is it something like 4vNPCs to every PC/non-virtual NPC Gemmed?  (a very small number) or more like 20vNPCs to every PC/non-virtual NPC Gemmed (a fairly noticeable number)  or are there several hundred vNPC gemmed moving about each temple from time to time?  In short, do we not notice the vNPC population because it's so sparse?  Or because it's so dense you just don't notice the forest for all the trees?

My personal experience is that the echoes would imply less than more, but it's a good question that would help inform proper respect for the vNPC population.

So from what I've seen of the new gemmed temples, my guess is they house somewhere between 30-100 permanent residents each.  Coded beds are not a valid count.  So that's 180-600 gemmed living in temples.

I don't know where the idea that most of the other buildings in the quarter are ruins.  Some sections certainly are, but most are just "buildings", and indeed many also are described with some signs of habitation.  Given the ratio of temple land space to other building land space, there could at least be be 4-5 times as many gemmed living outside the temples than in.

My gut says there's about 3000 gemmed living in Allanak.  That's a bit less than 1% of the population, a smaller demographic than all the racial abhumans except muls.

I remember reading the docs extensively wayyy back before I apped for my first 'gick.

I think I remember something along the lines of about 5% of the 'Nakki population is in that quarter, that means a couple thousand mages, although it's probably closer to Moe's estimation after wars, riots etc....

5% seems crazy high. You could make good money with magic 'tests' on rich children.

I used to have a bag of magick-detecting jewelry that I made every vaguely suspicious new PC try on but then staff told me to stop it.

#thanksmagickers

Even if magick potential were in 1-2% of the population you'd end up with several thousand mages in the city.

In any case, I've brought it up on our staff boards that more details could stand to be made clear here since there seems to be a large amount of variance in the eyes of the players on what the deal is with the elementalist quarter and mages in Allanak in general.

Hope to have some more clarity for you soon.

Quote from: Jave on January 28, 2016, 02:34:59 PM
Even if magick potential were in 1-2% of the population you'd end up with several thousand mages in the city.

In any case, I've brought it up on our staff boards that more details could stand to be made clear here since there seems to be a large amount of variance in the eyes of the players on what the deal is with the elementalist quarter and mages in Allanak in general.

Hope to have some more clarity for you soon.

Yeah. When I played my Templar, it was quoted at like 200 total.



The whole 'Quarter' thing is a silly measure, because if the quarters were literally quarters, Allanak contains 125% area, which I guess is from the power of magick radiating out from spamcasting and bending reality. It's an area of the city. It's bigger than it needs to be for its population - probably because of mundane-flight and its lack of gentrification. It'd be like saying Pripyat is the town of the future.

You can't really look at Allanak from a what-is-coded perspective and make accurate representations about the size of the quarters, population, etc.  It's just the parts that have been built out and made not virtual.  The Gemmer quarter is (in my mind) a lot smaller than it seems like from a coded perspective.  On the flip side, there are innumerable streets and shops and so forth that are not coded entities, in the main part of the city.  If you were to count the actual streets in the city that are coded, you'd only end up with what.. maybe 20 or 25?  (not counting the Rinth)

Quote from: Case on January 28, 2016, 03:07:39 PM
Yeah. When I played my Templar, it was quoted at like 200 total.

And even going with this most conservative of conservative estimations .. It would still be metagamey to pick the 5-10 PC gemmed of the game and target them exclusively with pressure to join the CAM 2.0 group you are trying to get started. Give staff a heads up and go after those remaining 195-190 too so the world can react to your efforts.

Quote from: seidhr on January 28, 2016, 03:43:55 PM
You can't really look at Allanak from a what-is-coded perspective and make accurate representations about the size of the quarters, population, etc.  It's just the parts that have been built out and made not virtual.  The Gemmer quarter is (in my mind) a lot smaller than it seems like from a coded perspective.  On the flip side, there are innumerable streets and shops and so forth that are not coded entities, in the main part of the city.  If you were to count the actual streets in the city that are coded, you'd only end up with what.. maybe 20 or 25?  (not counting the Rinth)

Yeah but like, if there's 200 odd people there and it has streets lined by apartments in places, it has to be bigger than its population

For all you know you might get 20-30 npcs who actually support you in secret, and you can break away and try to take over the city. Become the NEW Templars.


And then a dragon will eat you. But it'll be a hell of a fun ride when you get that far.

Quote from: Delirium on January 25, 2016, 12:45:05 PM
I love playing mages, I love their place in the world, and I think the magick code is the absolute bees knees.

And I will play the most rabid mage-haters you've ever seen because damn it, somebody needs to keep those twisted freaks of nature in their place.

I hate playing mages, I hate their place in the world, and I think the magick code is seriously broken.

And I will play the most rabid mage-haters you've ever seen because damn it, mundanes are superior and have every reason to hate magickers. Though, it's smarter to suck up to them and get some fancy rings and get in good with Oash. But for some reason I like playing bad boys. Maybe my parents didn't love me enough as a child?

Quote from: Jave on January 28, 2016, 02:34:59 PM
In any case, I've brought it up on our staff boards that more details could stand to be made clear here since there seems to be a large amount of variance in the eyes of the players on what the deal is with the elementalist quarter and mages in Allanak in general.

Hope to have some more clarity for you soon.

Before it's lost in the scroll #thanksmagickers...

Thanks you, Jave and other staff discussing.

Who cares? Be hateful to mages or service them all with your mouth. Just don't be suprised if my own characters mock or shun you mercilessly or, if the situation calls for it, defend that gemmer fanatically like he is my mother.

tl;dr: play your character, but expect and be willing to reflect the realistic IC consequences.

If you're playing a dirty magicker lover, you should be doing so with the full intention of getting horrible pushback from everyone else and strap in for the ride.

If you're playing a witch-hating fanatic, you should be doing so with the full intention of getting into lots of arguments with southerners who have a more "live and let live" attitude.

Or at least be willing to be subtle about it, and don't get pissed off OOC about how awful and unfair everyone is because they don't agree with you.

etc.....

Quote from: Delirium on February 01, 2016, 11:44:14 AM
...don't get pissed off OOC about how awful and unfair everyone is because they don't agree with you.

QFT

I find it to be a sort of moving line.

It's okay to maybe get along with a magicker when we're in one of those kill the witch phases. Its not okay though when everyone else is doing just that.

How do you know what phase we're in, though? The best you can do is judge off your own (usually limited) perception. You may think you're being the counterbalance but in fact you're the problem.

Better to just play to the docs at all times. And Allanaki mundanes aren't supposed to like or publicly associate with witches in the docs.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 02, 2016, 01:11:31 PM
How do you know what phase we're in, though? The best you can do is judge off your own (usually limited) perception. You may think you're being the counterbalance but in fact you're the problem.

Better to just play to the docs at all times. And Allanaki mundanes aren't supposed to like or publicly associate with witches in the docs.

It takes a certain amount of literacy and awareness. Both from the boards and in game. So yeah, it isn't exactly easy.

The docs are not absolute. There is enough room for nuance and exception. Let's be fair, it would be fucking boring if there weren't. And sometimes you just can't help circumstances, forcing you into some strange ic relationships.

Prescription doesn't always (or even usually) match reality.

I'm still relatively new to Arm, mostly coming from a DS background here. But I've noticed from some of the comments that there -is- a logical reason for less magicker hate. Your average person isn't legitimately terrified that every witch they meet is a horrifying monster. They should be. That's why people hated magic in DS (the inspiration for ARM's witch hating). It wasn't merely that magic = bad (because yeah, it literally rips the life force from living things to fuel itself). It's that magickers in DS were almost universally evil at best and batshit insane as a rule. In DS elementalists had the raw forces of paraelementals, etc, eroding their sanity and warping them, obsessively consuming them with whatever power their elemental force rises from (and most elemental forces on Athas prefer you dead). Same with pretty much -any- form of magic.

It's not just a "stupid superstitious peasants afraid of something they don't know". It's "people with survival instincts wanting to kill something where the only question is -when- not if, said witch will go omnicidal maniac". If you want to restore witch hate? Witches need to play as real monsters, barely kept leashed even in the short term by the sorc-king, and in the long term an inevitable ticking time bomb. Because fear leads to anger, anger to hate, yadda yadda. Want witch hate? Give people a valid reason to fear them on a broad enough scale with enough certainty and they will. Make magickers 'safe' and 'useful' to know? You'll just get witch lovers.

Quote from: SaraD on February 24, 2016, 07:37:29 AM
I'm still relatively new to Arm, mostly coming from a DS background here. But I've noticed from some of the comments that there -is- a logical reason for less magicker hate. Your average person isn't legitimately terrified that every witch they meet is a horrifying monster. They should be. That's why people hated magic in DS (the inspiration for ARM's witch hating). It wasn't merely that magic = bad (because yeah, it literally rips the life force from living things to fuel itself). It's that magickers in DS were almost universally evil at best and batshit insane as a rule. In DS elementalists had the raw forces of paraelementals, etc, eroding their sanity and warping them, obsessively consuming them with whatever power their elemental force rises from (and most elemental forces on Athas prefer you dead). Same with pretty much -any- form of magic.

It's not just a "stupid superstitious peasants afraid of something they don't know". It's "people with survival instincts wanting to kill something where the only question is -when- not if, said witch will go omnicidal maniac". If you want to restore witch hate? Witches need to play as real monsters, barely kept leashed even in the short term by the sorc-king, and in the long term an inevitable ticking time bomb. Because fear leads to anger, anger to hate, yadda yadda. Want witch hate? Give people a valid reason to fear them on a broad enough scale with enough certainty and they will. Make magickers 'safe' and 'useful' to know? You'll just get witch lovers.

Except, once again, this isn't dark sun. This is a hybrid of a variety of influences, including dark sun, and combined with its own spin on magicks in general. Allanak has an entire quarter specifically for the gemmed elementalists, which means - the city's chief bottle-washer, Tektolnes, has decreed that these elementalists are to be useful accepted members of the citizenry. No, they don't have to be liked, trusted, or befriended. But they do have to be accepted. Who says? The guy who can destroy the entire city with a "mon un stfu nak" and a wiggle of his fingers.

They ARE useful, whether your character likes it or not. That is what creates the conflict. If they weren't useful, if everyone knew without a doubt that they served no purpose other than subjects of loathing, and the Highlord himself put a ban on them, then they'd be wiped out and there'd be nothing left to hate or fear. Game over, fearmongers win. The conflict is that they ARE useful, and that Tektolnes DOES allow them to exist.  Even in certain tribal communities within the confines of the game, mages are documented as useful members of the tribe. Useful members who maybe can turn you into a toad if you piss them off, but useful nonetheless.

Quote from: Lizzie on February 24, 2016, 07:56:22 AM

Quote from: SaraD on February 24, 2016, 07:37:29 AM
I'm still relatively new to Arm, mostly coming from a DS background here. But I've noticed from some of the comments that there -is- a logical reason for less magicker hate. Your average person isn't legitimately terrified that every witch they meet is a horrifying monster. They should be. That's why people hated magic in DS (the inspiration for ARM's witch hating). It wasn't merely that magic = bad (because yeah, it literally rips the life force from living things to fuel itself). It's that magickers in DS were almost universally evil at best and batshit insane as a rule. In DS elementalists had the raw forces of paraelementals, etc, eroding their sanity and warping them, obsessively consuming them with whatever power their elemental force rises from (and most elemental forces on Athas prefer you dead). Same with pretty much -any- form of magic.

It's not just a "stupid superstitious peasants afraid of something they don't know". It's "people with survival instincts wanting to kill something where the only question is -when- not if, said witch will go omnicidal maniac". If you want to restore witch hate? Witches need to play as real monsters, barely kept leashed even in the short term by the sorc-king, and in the long term an inevitable ticking time bomb. Because fear leads to anger, anger to hate, yadda yadda. Want witch hate? Give people a valid reason to fear them on a broad enough scale with enough certainty and they will. Make magickers 'safe' and 'useful' to know? You'll just get witch lovers.

Except, once again, this isn't dark sun. This is a hybrid of a variety of influences, including dark sun, and combined with its own spin on magicks in general. Allanak has an entire quarter specifically for the gemmed elementalists, which means - the city's chief bottle-washer, Tektolnes, has decreed that these elementalists are to be useful accepted members of the citizenry. No, they don't have to be liked, trusted, or befriended. But they do have to be accepted. Who says? The guy who can destroy the entire city with a "mon un stfu nak" and a wiggle of his fingers.

They ARE useful, whether your character likes it or not. That is what creates the conflict. If they weren't useful, if everyone knew without a doubt that they served no purpose other than subjects of loathing, and the Highlord himself put a ban on them, then they'd be wiped out and there'd be nothing left to hate or fear. Game over, fearmongers win. The conflict is that they ARE useful, and that Tektolnes DOES allow them to exist.  Even in certain tribal communities within the confines of the game, mages are documented as useful members of the tribe. Useful members who maybe can turn you into a toad if you piss them off, but useful nonetheless.

I'm aware that they're useful. I'm just saying that there's a broad range of definition for useful, and that magickers should sit at the 'nuclear reactor flashing lots of red lights' end of the useful-dangerous dynamic. Otherwise you're just playing an Occultist in an IRE mud. Because dark and edgy is cool, but only if you don't actually remind people why the doc's say they should be terrified.

It's not an on-off useful or dangerous thing. But rather something that should be a sliding scale, the more useful the more mindnumbingly horrifingly dangerous. But then again that's just me reading the docs. You're the expert here, so I defer to your experience.

There are people who treat them like that.  Hell, I had a templar who thought that magickers were scary, unpredictable tools that should all be killed for the good of the populace except he couldn't because it would make baby Tek sad.  But just because the Highlord said something doesn't mean that people can't disagree (even when it's better not to disagree with it openly).

In any situation, there are going to be a wide range of human reactions.

Meanwhile, you don't have to defer to experience.  Just because you're new doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have thoughts.  ;)  Even if the DS stuff doesn't really apply for the reasons Lizzie said.

Jesus, Lizzie. SaraD pretty obviously said 'if you want hate to happen, things X and Y would help.' Screaming THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS isn't very helpful or constructive with regards to that. If I were to argue that maybe burglars and pickpockets should get merged together, telling me that can't be done because they're separate is a poor argument, too.

No, she didn't suggest anything. Here's what I take issue with (bolded and underlined):

Quote from: SaraD on February 24, 2016, 07:37:29 AM
I'm still relatively new to Arm, mostly coming from a DS background here. But I've noticed from some of the comments that there -is- a logical reason for less magicker hate. Your average person isn't legitimately terrified that every witch they meet is a horrifying monster. They should be. That's why people hated magic in DS (the inspiration for ARM's witch hating). It wasn't merely that magic = bad (because yeah, it literally rips the life force from living things to fuel itself). It's that magickers in DS were almost universally evil at best and batshit insane as a rule. In DS elementalists had the raw forces of paraelementals, etc, eroding their sanity and warping them, obsessively consuming them with whatever power their elemental force rises from (and most elemental forces on Athas prefer you dead). Same with pretty much -any- form of magic.

It's not just a "stupid superstitious peasants afraid of something they don't know". It's "people with survival instincts wanting to kill something where the only question is -when- not if, said witch will go omnicidal maniac". If you want to restore witch hate? Witches need to play as real monsters, barely kept leashed even in the short term by the sorc-king, and in the long term an inevitable ticking time bomb. Because fear leads to anger, anger to hate, yadda yadda. Want witch hate? Give people a valid reason to fear them on a broad enough scale with enough certainty and they will. Make magickers 'safe' and 'useful' to know? You'll just get witch lovers.

That's why I posted what I posted. Because - when all is said and done, this isn't Dark Sun, and these aren't Dark Sun mages, and no one here "needs" to do any such thing, and I feel it would be helpful to new players especially, to put that Dark Sun mindset aside and read the Armageddon documentation, and play their characters however they feel their characters would behave, as they interpret the Armageddon documentation. And if you feel someone is behaving contrary to the docs in a way that's harming your enjoyment of the game, send a player complaint.

I'm getting a feeling you immediately took a dislike to me Lizzie. Sorry if I've somehow offended you in my less than a dozen posts. But no, Patuk had the sum of it. I was just using Darksun as a recognizable but easily interchangable example of -how- magicker hate develops. Because the simple truth of RP muds in general is that if some aspect of roleplay is merely informed in lore, but contradicted in gameplay, general attitudes will keep shifting toward the reality of the situation (in this case, don't fear magickers, make friends with them, because there's no real downside). People need valid reasons for fear and hatred if you want to see fear and hatred. Honestly thieves at this point are far more frequent objects for hate than magickers, simply because their encoded skills make them such. If you want mages to be hated you need them to have valid reasons for being hated.

I'm not retarded Lizzie. I'm aware this isn't Darksun. However it was a major source of inspiration for the game, and hence makes an excellent example when picking a source for random examples. So, if you wanna have some highschool meangirl snarkfest with each other the rest of our time on the boards, feel free. Otherwise why not cut me a little slack and assume that I'm not an idiot? It might help, given every time you've tried to jump down my throat you've been gently brushed aside. It's vaguely irritating to have it happen every time I post.

Edit: in an equally viable method of resolving the dissonance, they could just update the documentation to state that magickers were traditionally hated before Tek's edicts integrated them into society, but society has gradually warmed to them in the time since. I guess which way you go, whether simply acknowledging their IC integration within the lore, or giving them in-game reasons to be universally hated, depends entirely upon how important to the setting the Imms find magick-hate.

Everybody needs to relax or take it to PMs. (waits to be called passive aggressive)

Huh, I thought I had already killed this thread.

SaraD, the key to the GDB is to not give a shit about what anyone else says (within politeness).


To respond to your original point, I think if we had more mage PCs flip out at their manifestation and kill a few people every once awhile, PCs would be a lot more leery.

I think it's because... we as players don't really understand the connection our characters have to the elements. While I... heh heh... am a genius and figured it out by in game and out of game meditation... I know that others may never come to the same conclusions as I have.
Nor have they read dark sun books. Which I also have yet to do.

They may not know exactly what being connected to the elements entail so they don't know the way(s) to roleplay it to make it actually frightening. Death is also discouraging. So maybe they do play their roles the way they should, but you don't get to see it because if you did, their character would end up dead.

Do what you want.
If you survive a magical encounter, that means magic sucks and you are the man...which may happen.
If you die, looks like they were right, magick is scary.
If magick saves your life...holy sweet god whoever said it is bad can eat your butt hole.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 28, 2016, 07:52:46 AM
To respond to your original point, I think if we had more mage PCs flip out at their manifestation and kill a few people every once awhile, PCs would be a lot more leery.

If it was possible to manifest at anything but the lowest level of spell power this would be more likely too.  Unfortunately, you need to use spells to advance spells which means you've already manifest.  Maybe an unmanifested magicker can work with a staffer to make something more of it then a weak spell that dumps a good portion of their mana, but...

People act like unregistered witches are scary but their spells suck too bad to do anything unless they've been alive more than ten days.
#Justgamerestrictionthings

There's some truth to that.  An elementalist cannot manifest in any codedly catastrophic way.  Their starting levels would have trouble killing a rat let alone threaten a person.  But I also don't think that manifestation needs to be the scary moment.  Magick should be feared because of what mages can do that mundanes cannot defend against.  The funny part is that if mages do those things and reinforce the IC hate, they almost always die shortly after.  So the path of least resistance is to play a nice magicker.

Quote from: wizturbo on February 28, 2016, 03:04:20 PM
There's some truth to that.  An elementalist cannot manifest in any codedly catastrophic way.  Their starting levels would have trouble killing a rat let alone threaten a person.  But I also don't think that manifestation needs to be the scary moment.  Magick should be feared because of what mages can do that mundanes cannot defend against.  The funny part is that if mages do those things and reinforce the IC hate, they almost always die shortly after.  So the path of least resistance is to play a nice magicker.

special app starting higher in all skills as a magicker, maybe with some branched, but start extremely old.

or start with encumbered stats in certain areas.

i am sure staff will work with you if you want to start as a fire elementalist who calls raining hellfire down on the entire known when he manifests.

Quote from: evilcabbage on February 28, 2016, 03:06:12 PM

Quote from: wizturbo on February 28, 2016, 03:04:20 PM
There's some truth to that.  An elementalist cannot manifest in any codedly catastrophic way.  Their starting levels would have trouble killing a rat let alone threaten a person.  But I also don't think that manifestation needs to be the scary moment.  Magick should be feared because of what mages can do that mundanes cannot defend against.  The funny part is that if mages do those things and reinforce the IC hate, they almost always die shortly after.  So the path of least resistance is to play a nice magicker.

special app starting higher in all skills as a magicker, maybe with some branched, but start extremely old.

or start with encumbered stats in certain areas.

i am sure staff will work with you if you want to start as a fire elementalist who calls raining hellfire down on the entire known when he manifests.

Sure they would.  But I'd be creating a throw away character at that point who will die shortly after manifesting.  I don't play throw away characters, especially not special apped ones.

You might have Magicker Seal Team Six, but mundanes have the inexhaustible supply of Witchhunter Ranger Delta Force. And you don't need karma to get in on Ranger Delta Force.

Quote from: MeTekillot on February 28, 2016, 04:27:28 PM
You might have Magicker Seal Team Six, but mundanes have the inexhaustible supply of Witchhunter Ranger Delta Force. And you don't need karma to get in on Ranger Delta Force.

I hear Assassin alpha force is better