Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting, let's not derail the hemote look thread, and instead talk about hiding mdescs here!
Here's an idea:
A new skill HIDEMDESC which would work a lot like hide, but upon success your mdesc would be hidden, or blurred (perhaps using the scribble decay code). It wouldn't rely on 'gear' (perhaps you'd have to have at least a cloak on, so you can't do it naked[1]) but on skill at subterfuge and distraction (always having a hand over your face, keeping the shadows where they should be, etc.)
[1] Sure, why not naked? The skill would be your skill at being nondescript, and this can happen with gear, sure, and maybe there'd be HIDEMDESC boosting gear like there is HIDE boosting gear, but it can also happen through other means, as mentioned above.
And... discuss!
ETA: No need to discuss this idea: the thread is here to discuss ways of implementing hiding mdescs so that it is fair. As far as the dialectic goes:
1. Mdesc Hiding Gear: grants the shady type the ability to abuse by wearing it all the time.
2. No Mdesc Hiding Gear (what we have now): grants the non-shady type the ability to abuse by reporting the full mdesc to the authorities.
Them's the Scylla and Charybdis as far as I can tell from previous discussions.
I'm leery of this being a skill as I think people will just use it to apply instant-disguise without proper IC justification.
Also the idea of a dual wielding assassin keeping a hand over his face while he threatens you is kind of silly. Much less while he's backstabbing someone and folks are looking at him.
What about having something that's gear based that applies something like the scribble code to your mdesc. I.e the higher quality mask you're wearing, the more of your mdesc is blocked out.
Hmm, good point. Although in its favor, at least with the skill approach, staff can look down on you and say: Um, are you really hiding your mdesc in a lit corridor, naked, with swords in your hand? With the gear approach... you know, I'm just gonna do a list of possibilities for abuse with each implementation.
1. Skill Approach.
con A. Could lead to implausible situations (much like HIDE does sometimes) wherein one passes the check yet is in a circumstance that would be hard to imagine. (Response: seems like this has all the same flaws as hide?)
pro A. At least it's a skill so there's a timer to it and the chance for failure.
2. Gear Approach.
con A. One can just wear the gear all the time.
Perhaps there should be a hybrid approach.
3. Hybrid Approach.
You need some gear (like a tool) to even try to hide your mdesc, but it is still skill-based (and so there's a chance of failure and a hit to stun and it wouldn't work while in combat, etc. etc.)
Good job controlling the derail.
From the Hemote look thread
From other thread:
Quote from: whitt on January 06, 2016, 01:11:52 PM
Quote from: Alesan on January 06, 2016, 12:46:59 PM
I'm curious about the argument that no look echoes hurts the shady types, though. Someone explain?
The general argument isn't really so much about the echo as the fact that folks can look at you and. despite every IC attempt to hide your mdesc, still see your mdesc. Which means you are reliant on the proper RP of other players to not tell someone exactly who mugged/raided/ran by... etc.
Exactly, I'd like to see gear/stuff hide mdesc and produce a generic mdesc based of characters race/height/weight/age.
OF course that gives shady types super anonymous powers that could be abused.
Le sigh, it's hard to trust other players to 'play fair' seen/been/heard of folks on all sides of situations where the other parties involved weren't what I considered 'fair'. But whatever not much you can do. (OOC fairness to note, not IC related ideas of 'fair').
If I personally where to design something, like an RPI mud. I'd take a lot of the ownership on such situations off the players. Let code decide so players aren't left with the dilemma for 'playing fair risk losing' or 'playing unfair and winning'.
Some things due to the current code rely on an honor system, sometimes being honorable OOCly with IC actions (not describing line for line the guy who just mugged you) or playing good and ICly ignorant if say you were blinded folded puts you in a position to 'lose' but you're being honorable.
Or you can throw all that out the window and put yourself in a better position to 'win'.
It's one of those things that seems just easier when code decides, dice rolls, math, character sheets. That way no one feels the need to be 'less than honorable' to win. Or there's no OOCly reason to work against your character while trying to RP realistically.
I've seen personally so many situations that hinged entirely on some one acting against their own PC's interest. Some have a stomach for it, but I don't blame anyone for not doing it. Lot of effort and care goes into a large amount of PC's it's difficult to work against your own previous efforts for the sake of story.
In some of those cases, despite perhaps being angry with the situation at first. I realized that those Players whom I felt were 'code cheesy' and fell into situations I would consider 'unfair' are just trying to act with in their interest and the interest of their personal story. There's no coded way to tell "did he really get a good look at the guy?". You wouldn't rely on an honor system in PvP combat situation. Players on the whole rely on the code. You wouldn't publish important IC secrets about an ongoing plot centered around player vs player conflict, because we know the honor system doesn't work.
Why should interactions? Interactions that require obscuring who you are be any different? For the aggressor, the player is literally relying on the honor system.
Quote from: Alesan on January 06, 2016, 01:34:43 PM
It'd be nice to have that feature, but you know what would happen - every single even slightly shady character would start wearing the cloak+mask combination at all times. I remember reading somewhere this is why it was removed to begin with? Completely hiding your identity is a powerful thing. And though some of us don't want to admit it, I think there are a lot of people who would love to abuse the mechanic to its fullest. And staff can't handle every single case of unreasonable use of cloak+mask that comes up.
To be fair, I've seen a large amount of describing characters line for line down to using their uncommon adjectives to describe a shady type. By players who I would think would be more incline to "rp realistically" not a person bat an eye at it. There are two sides to this, both have been abused.
Quote from: nauta on January 06, 2016, 01:46:08 PM
Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting, let's not derail the hemote look thread, and instead talk about hiding mdescs here!
Here's an idea:
A new skill HIDEMDESC which would work a lot like hide, but upon success your mdesc would be hidden, or blurred (perhaps using the scribble decay code). It wouldn't rely on 'gear' (perhaps you'd have to have at least a cloak on, so you can't do it naked[1]) but on skill at subterfuge and distraction (always having a hand over your face, keeping the shadows where they should be, etc.)
[1] Sure, why not naked? The skill would be your skill at being nondescript, and this can happen with gear, sure, and maybe there'd be HIDEMDESC boosting gear like there is HIDE boosting gear, but it can also happen through other means, as mentioned above.
And... discuss!
I could hide my mdesc in RL by covering my naked body in dung. Because are really gonna describe a mad man's eyes when he pulls the worlds greatest heist in the buff covered in cow shit? No they're just gonna describe you as the cow shit bandit.
Quote from: nauta on January 06, 2016, 01:46:08 PM
Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting
I consider myself a master baiter (GET IT?).
Anyways, sorta rounding back to the post in the hemote thread, I still think considering masks paraphernalia in major cities is the best route to take - along the lines of spice in Allanak. It's something that could easily be enforced IC.
And after some consideration, I'd leave facewraps alone.
I'd almost go so far as to redo the description process and have a segment solely for the face and then another for body type, but I foresee outcry for stepping on the artistic vision of players.
Quote from: TheWanderer on January 06, 2016, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: nauta on January 06, 2016, 01:46:08 PM
Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting
I consider myself a master baiter (GET IT?).
Anyways, sorta rounding back to the post in the hemote thread, I still think considering masks paraphernalia in major cities is the best route to take - along the lines of spice in Allanak. It's something that could easily be enforced IC.
And after some consideration, I'd leave facewraps alone.
I'd almost go so far as to redo the description process and have a segment solely for the face and then another for body type, but I foresee outcry for stepping on the artistic vision of players.
Did you know that calling yourself a 'master baiter' sounds a lot like calling yourself a masturbater (i.e., someone who masturbates)? Just a heads up! :-*
Assuming the code is still inside the machine somewhere, this is by far the least code intrusive option. And it makes a lot of sense: while we might not all agree on facewraps or hoods up or sunslits inside the city, at least I think we could all agree that the authorities would crack down on people wearing mdesc-masking gear (whatever that amounts to) inside the city! You could even have the NPC guards codedly give people shit about it, or even arrest them outright (like with spice).
This makes option (2), the gear approach, more attractive.
Just make cloaks with hoods/facewraps show the description of said cloak/facewrap when you look at someone.
I was saw this in another MUD in the past. If the hood was up and you looked at them it showed their description to be nothing but the description of the cloak item.
It seemed to work pretty well.
As for a skill to hide your mdesc or whatever...I don't care about that...
Just let "examine" look through mdesc hiding gear.
That elf sprinting by you wearing a mask? You won't be able to tell his eye color and his missing left finger to the Templar. But if he stops and you get the chance to "examine" him (based on a heartbeat delay) then you can see through his disguise. Think of the delay on hide, or after kick -- that's a heartbeat delay (generally). A little longer than that, so someone could notice you trying to get through their disguise and bolt, or attack.
Where looking would be a hemote, examining would be immediately obvious they're trying to see through your disguise. Combat would interrupt it, for all you raiders out there. ;)
That way you don't have to worry about the edgelord sitting at the bar decked out in face covers - you can "see" through it if you look at them long enough.
That's my go at it, anyhow. I remember someone suggesting this route in the past, so it's not my original idea.
Quote from: nauta on January 06, 2016, 02:19:22 PM
Quote from: TheWanderer on January 06, 2016, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: nauta on January 06, 2016, 01:46:08 PM
Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting
I consider myself a master baiter (GET IT?).
Anyways, sorta rounding back to the post in the hemote thread, I still think considering masks paraphernalia in major cities is the best route to take - along the lines of spice in Allanak. It's something that could easily be enforced IC.
And after some consideration, I'd leave facewraps alone.
I'd almost go so far as to redo the description process and have a segment solely for the face and then another for body type, but I foresee outcry for stepping on the artistic vision of players.
Did you know that calling yourself a 'master baiter' sounds a lot like calling yourself a masturbater (i.e., someone who masturbates)? Just a heads up! :-*
yes, that was my attempt at humor
or are you ribbing with me and making me doubt my ability to convey tone? or did I not make it seem intentional enough? fuckingidnuwjs goddamn toneless text
Quote from: TheWanderer on January 06, 2016, 02:32:24 PM
Quote from: nauta on January 06, 2016, 02:19:22 PM
Quote from: TheWanderer on January 06, 2016, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: nauta on January 06, 2016, 01:46:08 PM
Despite TheWanderer's lovely bit of baiting
I consider myself a master baiter (GET IT?).
Anyways, sorta rounding back to the post in the hemote thread, I still think considering masks paraphernalia in major cities is the best route to take - along the lines of spice in Allanak. It's something that could easily be enforced IC.
And after some consideration, I'd leave facewraps alone.
I'd almost go so far as to redo the description process and have a segment solely for the face and then another for body type, but I foresee outcry for stepping on the artistic vision of players.
Did you know that calling yourself a 'master baiter' sounds a lot like calling yourself a masturbater (i.e., someone who masturbates)? Just a heads up! :-*
yes, that was my attempt at humor
or are you ribbing with me and making me doubt my ability to convey tone? or did I not make it seem intentional enough? fuckingidnuwjs goddamn toneless text
Who's the master baiter now, baby?
>skills
Psionic powers
-------------------------------------------------
contact (master) baiting (master) barrier (novice)
Quote from: Desertman on January 06, 2016, 02:24:14 PM
Just make cloaks with hoods/facewraps show the description of said cloak/facewrap when you look at someone.
I was saw this in another MUD in the past. If the hood was up and you looked at them it showed their description to be nothing but the description of the cloak item.
THIS game used to have that. All those items were removed by staff. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,9739.0.html)
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 06, 2016, 02:41:13 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 06, 2016, 02:24:14 PM
Just make cloaks with hoods/facewraps show the description of said cloak/facewrap when you look at someone.
I was saw this in another MUD in the past. If the hood was up and you looked at them it showed their description to be nothing but the description of the cloak item.
THIS game used to have that. All those items were removed by staff. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,9739.0.html)
It's not the same thing apparently.
Those were items that hid your MDESC but also changed your short-desc to another description....which is odd I agree and should have been removed.
In that post the example was something like....the red-eyed dwarf found a mask that gave him the sdesc of the obese elf....
I mean this...
The figure in the black cloak.
look figure
This cloak is black, and this is all you are going to see about this person because their face is hidden by this black cloak. You would still be able to see their gear list obviously. The only thing that changes is their mdesc is the description of the cloak and nothing else.
The best way I've seen this handled is for all cloaks, facewraps and masks to hide the mdesc, but it was combined with the introduction of a "study" command that allows you to see their description. The study command has a "before" delay, and is visible as "look" is now. Make "look" a hemote and only reveal what it currently does.
Study could be skill based, and invoke the "watch" command.
You would not want mdesc hiding itesm to be at all rare or coveted, or you'd have people offering to pay 2k for a raggedy piece of cloth.
Soldiers have carte blanche, and are encouraged, to harass people who try to be anonymous at the bar.
I love stealth characters and I don't think this needs to be implemented. Trying to live a double life where you have a normal social life but secretly engage in whatever anti-social activity that requires hiding your identity should be difficult. This is largely a non-issue when you're not worried about your character having a reputation for being a criminal or a raider.
If players are abusing the fact that they are given the full mdesc when they look at a cloaked/masked character, we should address that player behavior (and especially hold players who have the IC power to deal with anti-social PCs to a high standard) rather than add something easily abusable to the other side. I already know several players play this correctly--I have seen militia PCs who tried to abuse the mdesc-matching thing to catch a criminal slapped down and the criminal let off when the templar realized what had happened.
Quote from: Delirium on January 06, 2016, 03:08:01 PM
The best way I've seen this handled is for all cloaks, facewraps and masks to hide the mdesc, but it was combined with the introduction of a "study" command that allows you to see their description. The study command has a "before" delay, and is visible as "look" is now. Make "look" a hemote and only reveal what it currently does.
Study could be skill based, and invoke the "watch" command.
You would not want mdesc hiding itesm to be at all rare or coveted, or you'd have people offering to pay 2k for a raggedy piece of cloth.
Soldiers have carte blanche, and are encouraged, to harass people who try to be anonymous at the bar.
This says all the things I would say.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on January 06, 2016, 03:09:55 PM
I love stealth characters and I don't think this needs to be implemented. Trying to live a double life where you have a normal social life but secretly engage in whatever anti-social activity that requires hiding your identity should be difficult. This is largely a non-issue when you're not worried about your character having a reputation for being a criminal or a raider.
If players are abusing the fact that they are given the full mdesc when they look at a cloaked/masked character, we should address that player behavior (and especially hold players who have the IC power to deal with anti-social PCs to a high standard) rather than add something easily abusable to the other side. I already know several players play this correctly--I have seen militia PCs who tried to abuse the mdesc-matching thing to catch a criminal slapped down and the criminal let off when the templar realized what had happened.
It is just hard to reinforce, almost impossible, and the player may not even realize they're doing anything bad as they might come from a gaming environment where it was no big deal. But the damage is done, whether or not they meant poorly by it, and that character had their life unrealistically affected.
It's better to have the coded reality reflect as much as possible the IC reality so that there's less room for error. I myself would prefer not to know, as it's even easier to go off what I know rather than have to constantly worry whether I missed seeing a facewrap in the eq list.
Also, if we want more conflict - allowing people to live double lives as criminals is a great way to encourage it.
Quote from: valeria on January 06, 2016, 03:10:51 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 06, 2016, 03:08:01 PM
The best way I've seen this handled is for all cloaks, facewraps and masks to hide the mdesc, but it was combined with the introduction of a "study" command that allows you to see their description. The study command has a "before" delay, and is visible as "look" is now. Make "look" a hemote and only reveal what it currently does.
Study could be skill based, and invoke the "watch" command.
You would not want mdesc hiding itesm to be at all rare or coveted, or you'd have people offering to pay 2k for a raggedy piece of cloth.
Soldiers have carte blanche, and are encouraged, to harass people who try to be anonymous at the bar.
This says all the things I would say.
Same here.
Quote from: Delirium on January 06, 2016, 03:12:15 PM
Also, if we want more conflict - allowing people to live double lives as criminals is a great way to encourage it.
Disagree. The reason players of these kinds of characters are paranoid about being ID'd is precisely that they want to avoid conflict splashing back onto their character. And who can blame them, when we know we do have players who will use any excuse to exercise the full might of their coded power to smack antagonist PCs down? You don't really help conflict by giving PCs a nearly foolproof way to hide their identities, because conflict needs to be a two-way street. Master burglars and pickpockets. if roleplayed poorly but knowing the code well, can rob every PC in a city blind without adding an ounce of conflict to the game. Mdesc hiding objects are not much different from invisible-mode sneaks.
I'd much rather see the the reasons why antagonist PCs try to avoid conflict backlash addressed. Like making sure we avoid a player culture of full exercise of coded power given an excuse (especially by high karma/sponsored roles), and the ridiculous time investment needed before a combat-oriented antagonist character becomes feasible.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on January 06, 2016, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 06, 2016, 03:12:15 PM
Also, if we want more conflict - allowing people to live double lives as criminals is a great way to encourage it.
Disagree. The reason players of these kinds of characters are paranoid about being ID'd is precisely that they want to avoid conflict splashing back onto their character. And who can blame them, when we know we do have players who will use any excuse to exercise the full might of their coded power to smack antagonist PCs down? You don't really help conflict by giving PCs a nearly foolproof way to hide their identities, because conflict needs to be a two-way street.
I'd much rather see the the reasons why antagonist PCs try to avoid conflict backlash addressed. Like making sure we avoid a player culture of full exercise of coded power given an excuse (especially by high karma/sponsored roles), and the ridiculous time investment needed before a combat-oriented antagonist character becomes feasible.
This is a good idea for another thread about the fundamental behaviors of PC's as a whole in the entire game. However, this is a thread about making cloaks hide your description....
Quote from: Desertman on January 06, 2016, 04:33:40 PM
This is a good idea for another thread about the fundamental behaviors of PC's as a whole in the entire game. However, this is a thread about making cloaks hide your description....
And I'm explaining why such cloaks are a bad idea. There is a reason they were removed before.
I'm way for it.
* Put in place serious rules against abuse, because some players are shit about stuff like it.
* Allow for some command that breaks it. SoI did it, with stare, and that was an interesting counter. If stare is no combat, and can't be done to hiddens or invises, seems about right for a counter.
* Social rules in place for it.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on January 06, 2016, 04:36:02 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 06, 2016, 04:33:40 PM
This is a good idea for another thread about the fundamental behaviors of PC's as a whole in the entire game. However, this is a thread about making cloaks hide your description....
And I'm explaining why such cloaks are a bad idea. There is a reason they were removed before.
Because they weren't coded in any way like these would be coded....
They literally made dwarves look like elves in the past. They were made for specific people and if that person lost the item, well, it made crazy things happen. It isn't related to this in any way really.
They weren't removed because they hid your mdesc. They were removed because they did weird things like potentially changing your entire race at a glance...pretty nuts.
Quote from: Case on January 06, 2016, 04:38:50 PM
I'm way for it.
* Put in place serious rules against abuse, because some players are shit about stuff like it.
* Allow for some command that breaks it. SoI did it, with stare, and that was an interesting counter. If stare is no combat, and can't be done to hiddens or invises, seems about right for a counter.
* Social rules in place for it.
Whatever the mechanism for hiding Mdescs (skill-based, gear-based, hybrid) I'd be cautiously game so long as it had these counters.
Simply relying on scan is not enough, as it is hardly a counter now.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on January 06, 2016, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 06, 2016, 03:12:15 PM
Also, if we want more conflict - allowing people to live double lives as criminals is a great way to encourage it.
Disagree. The reason players of these kinds of characters are paranoid about being ID'd is precisely that they want to avoid conflict splashing back onto their character.
To be fair, almost everyone in this thread has suggested code/commands/ways to determine the obscured player. No one wants shady types having a 'fool proof' way of obscuring their mdesc.
I know you spoke of anecdote about a Templar smacking down a PC reciting line for line a mdesc.
But I've seen the opposite, down to the uncommon adjectives in their sdesc. The situation was discouraging, yet funny, and at the same time understandable. Stakes were high in that situation. The particular PC describing said thief was put in a very difficult situation OOCly, a situation inherently unfair to both parties. Purposely lose against the interests and motivations of your PC? For the sake of another you're in conflict with? That's a tall order considering the level of effort put forth into the game.
Too much of the current system makes the antagonist rely entirely on players respecting the honor system. There no way to determine if a victim did in fact notice the tattoo on their arm or the color of their eyes and remembers them clear as day. It's entirely within a PC victims agency, which puts a lot of competing pressure on that player. Do they go for the 'win' for justice? Or do the accept loss for the sake of some one else's story? Do they purposely forget the mdesc or the minor details. Like brown eyes? Or Hazel eyes? Would you notice the different if some crazed spiced out raider is barreling down on you?
Players shouldn't have to deal with that dilemma in my opinion. If there was code in place that allowed both the shady and the victim to engage in an interaction with the cold hard world of math and character sheets deciding the outcome of who noticed what. Then they can simply worry about responding like their character would.
I can't think of any other example where the player base is asked to go by the honor system in terms of interactions. We almost always have code to rely on. Who won what fight, who stole from who, did you notice the guy in the bushes or not. There is code for that, it works. It allows the player to leverage their skill list to help their RP, they aren't held to any system of honor that can be applied arbitrarily to any situation.
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 06, 2016, 04:48:55 PM
I can't think of any other example where the player base is asked to go by the honor system in terms of interactions. We almost always have code to rely on. Who won what fight, who stole from who, did you notice the guy in the bushes or not. There is code for that, it works. It allows the player to leverage their skill list to help their RP, they aren't held to any system of honor that can be applied arbitrarily to any situation.
Well, there's pregnancy. So in a sense, our honor system kicks in when someone knocks us up or knocks us out.
Quote from: nauta on January 06, 2016, 05:04:13 PM
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 06, 2016, 04:48:55 PM
I can't think of any other example where the player base is asked to go by the honor system in terms of interactions. We almost always have code to rely on. Who won what fight, who stole from who, did you notice the guy in the bushes or not. There is code for that, it works. It allows the player to leverage their skill list to help their RP, they aren't held to any system of honor that can be applied arbitrarily to any situation.
Well, there's pregnancy. So in a sense, our honor system kicks in when someone knocks us up or knocks us out.
We also go by the honor system for soldier PCs, trusting them not to give us the Pimp Slap of Half-giant Summoning Doom.
Trying to trust the player-base to not give nearly-exact sdesc information, or identifying features that should be covered(He's got a tat of a spider on his shoulder that you probably should never see through his cloak...) has not worked up until this point. Why do people still continue to think it will work? Good luck changing the "culture" of the player-base. You'd have an easier time just getting rid of all the current players and start anew with some very stringent acceptance policies.
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 06, 2016, 04:48:55 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on January 06, 2016, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 06, 2016, 03:12:15 PM
Also, if we want more conflict - allowing people to live double lives as criminals is a great way to encourage it.
Disagree. The reason players of these kinds of characters are paranoid about being ID'd is precisely that they want to avoid conflict splashing back onto their character.
To be fair, almost everyone in this thread has suggested code/commands/ways to determine the obscured player. No one wants shady types having a 'fool proof' way of obscuring their mdesc.
I know you spoke of anecdote about a Templar smacking down a PC reciting line for line a mdesc.
But I've seen the opposite, down to the uncommon adjectives in their sdesc. The situation was discouraging, yet funny, and at the same time understandable. Stakes were high in that situation. The particular PC describing said thief was put in a very difficult situation OOCly, a situation inherently unfair to both parties. Purposely lose against the interests and motivations of your PC? For the sake of another you're in conflict with? That's a tall order considering the level of effort put forth into the game.
Too much of the current system makes the antagonist rely entirely on players respecting the honor system. There no way to determine if a victim did in fact notice the tattoo on their arm or the color of their eyes and remembers them clear as day. It's entirely within a PC victims agency, which puts a lot of competing pressure on that player. Do they go for the 'win' for justice? Or do the accept loss for the sake of some one else's story? Do they purposely forget the mdesc or the minor details. Like brown eyes? Or Hazel eyes? Would you notice the different if some crazed spiced out raider is barreling down on you?
Players shouldn't have to deal with that dilemma in my opinion. If there was code in place that allowed both the shady and the victim to engage in an interaction with the cold hard world of math and character sheets deciding the outcome of who noticed what. Then they can simply worry about responding like their character would.
I can't think of any other example where the player base is asked to go by the honor system in terms of interactions. We almost always have code to rely on. Who won what fight, who stole from who, did you notice the guy in the bushes or not. There is code for that, it works. It allows the player to leverage their skill list to help their RP, they aren't held to any system of honor that can be applied arbitrarily to any situation.
Fantastic post that doesn't deserve to be pagerolled.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 06, 2016, 05:16:22 PM
Trying to trust the player-base to not give nearly-exact sdesc information, or identifying features that should be covered(He's got a tat of a spider on his shoulder that you probably should never see through his cloak...) has not worked up until this point. Why do people still continue to think it will work? Good luck changing the "culture" of the player-base. You'd have an easier time just getting rid of all the current players and start anew with some very stringent acceptance policies.
To be fair, at least in the shoulder cases for tattoo, the covering code doesn't work properly.
Quote from: Desertman on January 06, 2016, 03:43:32 PM
Quote from: valeria on January 06, 2016, 03:10:51 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 06, 2016, 03:08:01 PM
The best way I've seen this handled is for all cloaks, facewraps and masks to hide the mdesc, but it was combined with the introduction of a "study" command that allows you to see their description. The study command has a "before" delay, and is visible as "look" is now. Make "look" a hemote and only reveal what it currently does.
Study could be skill based, and invoke the "watch" command.
You would not want mdesc hiding itesm to be at all rare or coveted, or you'd have people offering to pay 2k for a raggedy piece of cloth.
Soldiers have carte blanche, and are encouraged, to harass people who try to be anonymous at the bar.
This says all the things I would say.
Same here.
Same.
However, I would like there to be items available that give a penalty to the person's watch-check to see their description. They shouldn't be rare or valuable, but they should be treated with suspicion, similar to how anyone in real life would be treated with suspicion if they showed up in a ski mask.
For instance, if you have only a cloak with a hood,it should be easy to see your mdsec with a "study". If you have a cloak with an extra deep cowl, a thick facewrap, and a pair of sunslits (which all would be very suspicious, and likely to get you hassled by the Militia if you're seen with it), it should be much more difficult for someone to garner your mdesc with a single study check unless they happen to be quite skilled in Watch.
If the consensus disagrees with me and thinks current abuse of >look figure is worse than possible abuse by the cloaked figures, then sure. I'm okay with my objections being overruled.
A "study" command to see through an mdesc-hiding getup could work to check that, as long as you make sure the study command is not as powerful as >look figure currently is so the change isn't completely moot. Make it echo immediately, but give it a short but significant pre-delay that can be interrupted by combat or if the target slips out of view. But make it not echo when you finish, and make the delay shorter the higher the character's Watch skill is.
And, yeah, I agree that if we're going to do it, hiding your mdesc should be as easy as having a raised hood, a closed "around body" item, and something on your character's face. Make that the rule rather than the exception, and then tag items that should not be diguising like kohl eyeliner as exceptions.
I would still like to see this...
The game really needs Mdesc hiding gear.
I would like for 'look' to show me what my PC would actually see. So yes, mdescs hidden when appropriate.
Even though I frequently play criminals, I'm not a big fan of this idea. I played an RPI MUD that had this feature, and it was abused to the point of criminals sitting at the bar with the guards, hurling insults at them. To be fair, I trust the judgement of the players and staff of Arm more than those of that MUD, but it's still going to be abused.
The other reason I don't care for it is that I can't imagine it being implemented well. If wrist razors, masks, and climbing spikes are a way to measure, then mdesc hiding items will basically be cheap burlap sacks with eye holes poked in them that are only clan craftable, and market for just shy of 2,000 coins. If you think your rinthi and his 50 sid facewrap would enjoy the benefits of this change, you've got another thing comin'.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 23, 2016, 03:34:59 PM
Even though I frequently play criminals, I'm not a big fan of this idea. I played an RPI MUD that had this feature, and it was abused to the point of criminals sitting at the bar with the guards, hurling insults at them. To be fair, I trust the judgement of the players and staff of Arm more than those of that MUD, but it's still going to be abused.
The other reason I don't care for it is that I can't imagine it being implemented well. If wrist razors, masks, and climbing spikes are a way to measure, then mdesc hiding items will basically be cheap burlap sacks with eye holes poked in them that are only clan craftable, and market for just shy of 2,000 coins. If you think your rinthi and his 50 sid facewrap would enjoy the benefits of this change, you've got another thing comin'.
Believe that is why they're supposed to be common, so that hiding your mdesc is not some sort of amazing ability to pay large amounts for. In your example, that's incredibly hard to pull off in a state where their description can be seen in a short delay.
Sounds to me like your other RPI had some sort of rule, spoken or unspoken, against the soldiers plotting against these people. Perhaps they had a station that allowed it. Perhaps they had paid off the officers. But that is not a case where anonymity protected them, because them standing there long enough to hurl insults is long enough for the soldier to use the above method to find out who they were.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 23, 2016, 03:34:59 PM
Even though I frequently play criminals, I'm not a big fan of this idea. I played an RPI MUD that had this feature, and it was abused to the point of criminals sitting at the bar with the guards, hurling insults at them. To be fair, I trust the judgement of the players and staff of Arm more than those of that MUD, but it's still going to be abused.
Have you every been there for the word for word description of a PC? Down the the uncommon adjectives? He had... atramentous hair Lord templar! And jaundice eyes!
Isn't the solution there for the templar to "ooc did you actually see that all -- perhaps they were wrapped up?" and to i(maybe) file a player complaint.
It'd be cool if there were a basic place in a help file (help masking) to point the new player / offending player to, something like:
Quote
Armageddon does not have mdesc masking gear or abilities. Rather, we rely on the playerbase to be honest about what their characters might have been able to see. If you are caught repeatedly abusing the look command, it will be taken away.
(Just joking on the last line.)
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 23, 2016, 03:49:24 PM
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 23, 2016, 03:34:59 PM
Even though I frequently play criminals, I'm not a big fan of this idea. I played an RPI MUD that had this feature, and it was abused to the point of criminals sitting at the bar with the guards, hurling insults at them. To be fair, I trust the judgement of the players and staff of Arm more than those of that MUD, but it's still going to be abused.
Have you every been there for the word for word description of a PC? Down the the uncommon adjectives? He had... atramentous hair Lord templar! And jaundice eyes!
On the other side of the coin - sometimes I get the feeling people pick obscure/unusual adjectives and adverbs for their characters on purpose just so they can cry foul when someone actually uses them in conversation.
I'm of the mind that - if you don't want someone to eventually USE the word you have chosen to describe your own character in your Sdesc - then don't use that word. I'll still TRY to avoid using it but - if it comes down to a templar demanding a description of someone, or them killing MY character - I'm going to find a way to bring up "atrementous" in a sentence in the most IC way possible. "His skin was real black Lord Templar. Seriously black. Oh oh yes I remember also! The Lord Blepharectomus Tor once said to his aide that the guy was positively atrementous! Does that help, Lord Templar?".
Quote from: Lizzie on January 23, 2016, 04:18:53 PM
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 23, 2016, 03:49:24 PM
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 23, 2016, 03:34:59 PM
Even though I frequently play criminals, I'm not a big fan of this idea. I played an RPI MUD that had this feature, and it was abused to the point of criminals sitting at the bar with the guards, hurling insults at them. To be fair, I trust the judgement of the players and staff of Arm more than those of that MUD, but it's still going to be abused.
Have you every been there for the word for word description of a PC? Down the the uncommon adjectives? He had... atramentous hair Lord templar! And jaundice eyes!
On the other side of the coin - sometimes I get the feeling people pick obscure/unusual adjectives and adverbs for their characters on purpose just so they can cry foul when someone actually uses them in conversation.
I'm of the mind that - if you don't want someone to eventually USE the word you have chosen to describe your own character in your Sdesc - then don't use that word. I'll still TRY to avoid using it but - if it comes down to a templar demanding a description of someone, or them killing MY character - I'm going to find a way to bring up "atrementous" in a sentence in the most IC way possible. "His skin was real black Lord Templar. Seriously black. Oh oh yes I remember also! The Lord Blepharectomus Tor once said to his aide that the guy was positively atrementous! Does that help, Lord Templar?".
Or on the opposite side, they are the most cookie cutter description ever and giving a description will be the same as saying he was like that guy on tv, you know that guy on the show?
Quote from: Asmoth on January 23, 2016, 04:21:44 PM
Or on the opposite side, they are the most cookie cutter description ever and giving a description will be the same as saying he was like that guy on tv, you know that guy on the show?
This is how I usually describe my characters. We've got enough characters who stand out that you actually stand out when you're normal.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 23, 2016, 04:18:53 PM
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 23, 2016, 03:49:24 PM
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 23, 2016, 03:34:59 PM
Even though I frequently play criminals, I'm not a big fan of this idea. I played an RPI MUD that had this feature, and it was abused to the point of criminals sitting at the bar with the guards, hurling insults at them. To be fair, I trust the judgement of the players and staff of Arm more than those of that MUD, but it's still going to be abused.
Have you every been there for the word for word description of a PC? Down the the uncommon adjectives? He had... atramentous hair Lord templar! And jaundice eyes!
On the other side of the coin - sometimes I get the feeling people pick obscure/unusual adjectives and adverbs for their characters on purpose just so they can cry foul when someone actually uses them in conversation.
I'm of the mind that - if you don't want someone to eventually USE the word you have chosen to describe your own character in your Sdesc - then don't use that word. I'll still TRY to avoid using it but - if it comes down to a templar demanding a description of someone, or them killing MY character - I'm going to find a way to bring up "atrementous" in a sentence in the most IC way possible. "His skin was real black Lord Templar. Seriously black. Oh oh yes I remember also! The Lord Blepharectomus Tor once said to his aide that the guy was positively atrementous! Does that help, Lord Templar?".
That's my point though, one should have to worry about playing against themselves or being entirely meta about it either. That's super unfair that you may lose a pc because you were trying to go by the honor system. Or that another player with equal time in their pc, might lose their PC cause everyone has eyes that can pierce even the thickest of face wraps.
Code should decide, that way no one can cry foul. The Templar gonna have to suck it up, that your look/watch check only caught a glimpse of the PC. I was thinking that the mdesc items would generate a generic description based entirely on the PC's weight/height/racial/gender values. With the chance to see the mdesc based on the watch + wisdom values.
Generated values (like taller then you/heavier then you/ racial frame/ equipment/) Still would give a good descriptor of the raider/criminal, if they were as dumb to continuously use the same equipment.
I'm all for stuff that helps PC maintain double lives and takes the onus off Players so there's no 'unspoken' obligations there. No one want to be smacked down for not being meta, nor do they wanna be smacked down for being meta, shit sucks and it's a dubious place to be as a player. Do I go for the win? Fuck that guy, he was immense, with stormy eyes! Or do you lose on purpose, He was a big guy... didn't get a good look!
I couldn't ask a player to wanna 'lose' on purpose or risk their PC because their mdesc/sdesc retelling of the bad guy wasn't as accurate has the militia PC or Templar wanted.
Slap on the code, call it a day, reduces the amount of possible misgivings about those interactions.
There are some issues with that though hopeandsorrow, which is why mdesc-hiding items are no longer in the game. There really is no way to "fix" it properly.
If you consider an mdesc-hiding mask, that makes no sense because theoretically, your mdesc is comprised of more than just your face. Your body type, size, any scars that might be visible with ordinary clothing, if she's got huge noticeable knockers, if her hair is a vivid hue of green that flows down to her ass, etc. etc. etc. None of that should be hideable by a mask.
If it's a full-body head-to-toe costume, then it needs to replace the entire rest of your wardrobe. Or, it needs to be hard to move around in, if it's covering your entire body including all your armor, your cloak, your shoes, your helmet, etc. etc.
The only way to fix this, really, is to require everyone to have two mdescs. One would be the usual one which includes head/face/hair/body type/tits/bulging crotch/always walks with a limp/has flat feet/whatever else. The second is all of that - minus all of the head information except for the eyes, which would be visible at close range even if you were wearing a mask.
Of course - there are people who whine about having to write a singular mdesc for their characters and run to auto-generators for this stuff, who would whine a whole lot louder - and might even talk with their feet.
So I'm thinking making it useful and practical and believable, would result in driving people away, which doesn't help anything at all.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 23, 2016, 07:45:06 PM
There really is no way to "fix" it properly.
Actually, the simple, elegant, and (I'll be so bold as to say) correct solution has already been mentioned several times in this thread: Easy mdesc-hiding + easy study/examine command to see through it with a delay and echo. That's it.
It's fun to sit around and think about how to make a complicated code system that represents a bunch of crazy variables, and then conclude that the task is impossible, but in fact, none of those concerns are relevant. You just give the tools to conceal and defeat concealment directly to players who then use them in the scenes they create together. There is no "abuse" because the tools are equally available to all. It really doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Simplicity really is the best solution most of the time.
There should be items that hide your Mdesc but they should be very expensive/rare, master merchant stuff. While I know this might be a little unrealistic, the thing is I rather not see everyone and their mother sitting on the bar hiding their mdesc.
I like the idea of everyone having the ability to examine someone who is hiding their mdesc.
There should be a generous delay involved and the other person should get and echo like: The blue dwarf begins to study you closely. You would also be able to do this in combat with a delay as well. However this gives the person using the mdesc a chance to run or react.
Examining someone with an Mdesc should have a small chance to fail, but that would improve based on your watch skill.
If someone has the ability to completely hide their mdesc through means of a mask or whatnot, then a player should have the ability to forcefully remove said mask or whatnot once the masked/whatnotted person is subdued
OR
Allow things worn on the face/head to be stolen
Quote from: Dresan on January 23, 2016, 10:01:51 PM
There should be items that hide your Mdesc but they should be very expensive/rare, master merchant stuff. While I know this might be a little unrealistic, the thing is I rather not see everyone and their mother sitting on the bar hiding their mdesc.
God no. You wouldn't see everyone at the bar hiding their m-desc as that would look conspicuous as fuck.
I used to play a different MUD and in that MUD hoods and masks did hide your mdesc, but there was a "study" command people could use which echoed they were studying you, it had a bit of a delay, then it showed you their mdesc and sdesc.
Quote from: Jave on January 23, 2016, 10:58:22 PM
I used to play a different MUD and in that MUD hoods and masks did hide your mdesc, but there was a "study" command people could use which echoed they were studying you, it had a bit of a delay, then it showed you their mdesc and sdesc.
I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.
This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.
Some posts were trimmed from this thread. Refrain from bashing other MUDs on this forum. It's poor form.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 23, 2016, 11:10:45 PM
Quote from: Jave on January 23, 2016, 10:58:22 PM
I used to play a different MUD and in that MUD hoods and masks did hide your mdesc, but there was a "study" command people could use which echoed they were studying you, it had a bit of a delay, then it showed you their mdesc and sdesc.
I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.
This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.
It equally makes no sense that you can see someones features when they're covered up. I think you will run into less situations where it is troublesome than the current system(or lack of) is, if people could obscure the M-desc.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 23, 2016, 11:49:30 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 23, 2016, 11:10:45 PM
Quote from: Jave on January 23, 2016, 10:58:22 PM
I used to play a different MUD and in that MUD hoods and masks did hide your mdesc, but there was a "study" command people could use which echoed they were studying you, it had a bit of a delay, then it showed you their mdesc and sdesc.
I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.
This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.
It equally makes no sense that you can see someones features when they're covered up. I think you will run into less situations where it is troublesome than the current system(or lack of) is, if people could obscure the M-desc.
+1
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 23, 2016, 11:49:30 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 23, 2016, 11:10:45 PM
Quote from: Jave on January 23, 2016, 10:58:22 PM
I used to play a different MUD and in that MUD hoods and masks did hide your mdesc, but there was a "study" command people could use which echoed they were studying you, it had a bit of a delay, then it showed you their mdesc and sdesc.
I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.
This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.
It equally makes no sense that you can see someones features when they're covered up. I think you will run into less situations where it is troublesome than the current system(or lack of) is, if people could obscure the M-desc.
Right. The proper coded solution to that is pretty involved. Other RPIs will have you describe each body part separately in a fill-in-the-blank form rather than having a free form paragraph editor in which you can describe multiple features in a sentence and so on. Then it codedly generates the mdesc based on partially or fully obfuscating the various body parts as they're covered by gear. I think it's the right balance point, since total mdesc hides leave out some major features that could still be roughly seen as others have listed above. But it's quite the change from the basic paragraph method and the much simpler solution is just to have people use their brains and filter what they read for what their char can reasonably know.
Though as others have said, this creates pressures for how to do it, and making it 100% code avoids having to make tough decisions in some cases.
I'd be up for adding a few lines into char gen along the lines of:
When masked....
What colour are your eyes: Blue/Green/Red/Grey/Brown/Hazel/Gold/Silver/etc etc
What body shape is your character: Brick wall/lithe/slim/muscular/skinny/curvy/athletic?
What colour is your hair: blah
What style is your hair: blah
Add in height/weight/race/gender, and mix and match on what shows depending on sunslits, masks, and hooded cloak (hooded or deep hooded).
That said!
On another game I play, it gets rid of the desc completely. Which is fine. BUT! Armageddon, even when hooded, you can target people by keyword. If I see you and your name is Jack, and I sort of remember the fact that you had a sapphire sabre, I can try 'look jack' and if it -is- you, it'll show me the spam. When I'm talking to someone hooded that I'm struggling to remember because it is 5am and I'm having a mental fail, I will hazard a guess. Not to say that if it is someone obscure I won't pretend I don't know them, but it does help when it is your boss in a hood that you see daily, but because they have different clothing and their hood up, you suddenly can't remember the sound of their voice?
But...will prove a problem with hiding mdescs, because while I keyword sniff and only use the information if it makes sense IC, I also try to 'forget' peoples mdescs and get vague about them as required. If people are remembering mdescs and sdescs, then they might well be using keyword sniffing to ruin all this. And it is hard, because the last time I got attacked by a masked individual (which I didn't actually look at), I got rather hounded to tell people more than "It was so fast, I think their sdesc-masking-item was...er...blue?" (or whatever), and trying to even keep that item vague - was it a leather mask, a wood mask, a gemstone mask? Was it a greatcloak, a stormcloak, a hooded cloak, an aba, a dress with a hood, a windcloak, etc, etc! There is pressure to see more than I was comfortable sharing after what would have been a blur for my character. It is hard to say "Sorry folks, it was blue. OOC I saw the exact item, IC...it was blue. Just blue.".
Not to say I'm against the idea - I am all for +1 mdesc hiding gear (sod skills, gear please!) that is available to people that actually use it (ie cheap, not 5000 word of sid!!). From both a 'good guy' and a 'naughty guy' person perspective, mdesc gear! :D
Ideally, I'd just split the description into two parts, one being your full description, the other being a vaguer description of the things that would be visible if your face were obscured. So if you have a club foot in your main description, you would want to include that in your hidden description, your "hdesc" maybe. I don't like chargens that are too complicated and force you to tediously describe each body part separately. I think this would be the simplest happy medium between no mdesc covering and total mdesc covering.
Hoods should show the hidden description by default, but I'd also add the "stare" command with a long delay and a visible echo. You'd have to "stare" at a hooded person for a while to see their main description, during which time they can berate you or leave the room. If you "stare" at a hooded person that also has a mask on, you just get the hidden description again.
Yeah you guys had way better ideas for how to do it without going the insanity levels of the full monty i described above. Just a few salient features when masked provided in chargen. Hopefully reviewed to make sure they match the regular desc :)
Quote from: JackGibbons on January 24, 2016, 09:15:19 AM
Hopefully reviewed to make sure they match the regular desc :)
I saw someone walk past with (paraphased) the Sdesc 'the something and lythe woman'...drunk admin day? That or the char was from North Yorkshire, in which case it made absolute sense :) In short...two points. 1) I see so many typos and they pain me and I am both unapologetic for pointing them out and apologetic because it is such a compulsion, and 2) Relying on admin review, considering the odd things I see in descs (on my last char I saw someone wandering around with their eyes described twice in their desc...odd, but the salient point was they were described as being completely different colours :D ), is dubious at best.
(Side note: I am also not infallible, and please please please, if you spot a typo on my desc tell me, because I'd rather know now than catch it 2 months down the line and feel mortified :D ).
That said, a few extra lines with basic choices might work. Don't allow every colour under the sun but force people to pick a vague shade. Chestnut brown hair in your full desc, brown in your m desc, emerald eyes equals green eyes, and so on.
I can see that being easier to QC than two descs and easier for newbies to get through. It might also encourage newbies to describe those items and add an extra line to their desc (I also remember a not-a-newbie char who didn't put their eye colour in their full desc...yes, see...can't help myself :D ) a little descriptive fluff to a desc is nice and it can be hard to think of what to put. That said, I'd suggest this for after writing the full desc into char gen. That way you are just looking at the desc and picking the option that best suits what you've already entered.
I (for me) like the idea of two descs, but I can see the newbie pit of doom opening up there. Similar with players who churn through chars. If everyone did it well, it'd be fabulous, but I can see it being badly done by newbies who aren't really sure what they are doing or why, and done hurriedly by players with high char turn over.
The other game I play has literally nothing though. Hood up/mask on and your full desc vanishes completely. You get the Sdesc of the masking item (including height/weight details that are inches relevant rather than relevant to the viewer), and equipment, but the entire full desc is gone. It works if people emote (they also have voice strings which sort of helps, although people are lazy about saymotes due to it), so I can see it working better on Arm with regards to people emoting their size and shape since the average caliber of RP here is pretty good. But it does mean you are reliant on the PC's emotes plus their equipment list for giving them up to your local law enforcement.
I'm not a fan of mdesc hiding gear. I was writing a post about it, but then I thought...I'm sure if staff did decide to implement one of these suggestions they'd do a good job. All of these ideas are legit. Sometimes I can't tell for sure if I'm being stodgy. I will say when I saw mdesc hiding gear in armageddon in the past, the way it read was quite flat. However, if for some reason it was rebooted, surely something would be done to address that.
Sometimes I get a little meh trying to rename the tall, dark haired man. You know, he was big, but not fat...and his hair was blackish brownish...sort've. Not blond at all. So I could see how a newer player might get down to brass tacks. If someone does something obviously egregious, it's on all of us to assume it's done out of inexperience and either gently correct them ourselves or send in a polite note to staff.
We all came here to die. It's not the same as losing. All the stories short and long were meant to have an end.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 23, 2016, 11:10:45 PM
I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.
This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.
Here's the fundamental problem with your argument: all the same gripes you have apply to mdescs, themselves. If we didn't have mdescs in game, and someone suggested them, you would be apt to tell us all the same things. "It makes no sense to have a desc that tells all about what someone's face looks like, because the PC might be facing away when you're looking at them, or a desc that tells what someone's hands look like when they might be wearing gloves. There's just no way to fix this crazy 'mdesc' idea without a complicated markup language, so we might as well not do it."
In fact, an mdesc can be implemented super simply. The first stage, a minimally viable product, if you will, is an always-visible mdesc. That's what we have, hurray! Then, if you want, go ahead and make incremental improvements to your minimally viable product -- like tdesc! Another incremental improvement -- easy mdesc hiding with easy deconcealment (itself a minimally viable feature to facilitate concealment roleplay, that could have its own incremental improvements built).
You understand that mdescs work because you have seen them work in game, so you are not forced to imagine that they can be only implemented by one of these complicated fever-dreams of a code system you keep suggesting.
Quote from: catchall on January 24, 2016, 11:14:39 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 23, 2016, 11:10:45 PM
I don't get the logic behind that. If my face is covered by a mask, no amount of studying my mask is going to reveal anything about my face - except for the color of my eyes. In addition, no mask worn on the face, or hood worn over the head, is going to obscure my character's figure, or the fact that her right arm is markedly shorter than her left, or that she's missing a pinkie, or is flat-chested and has narrow hips.
This is why I'm against masks/hoods obscuring an mdesc. Because it makes no sense for them to do so.
Here's the fundamental problem with your argument: all the same gripes you have apply to mdescs, themselves. If we didn't have mdescs in game, and someone suggested them, you would be apt to tell us all the same things. "It makes no sense to have a desc that tells all about what someone's face looks like, because the PC might be facing away when you're looking at them, or a desc that tells what someone's hands look like when they might be wearing gloves. There's just no way to fix this crazy 'mdesc' idea without a complicated markup language, so we might as well not do it."
In fact, an mdesc can be implemented super simply. The first stage, a minimally viable product, if you will, is an always-visible mdesc. That's what we have, hurray! Then, if you want, go ahead and make incremental improvements to your minimally viable product -- like tdesc! Another incremental improvement -- easy mdesc hiding with easy deconcealment (itself a minimally viable feature to facilitate concealment roleplay, that could have its own incremental improvements built).
You understand that mdescs work because you have seen them work in game, so you are not forced to imagine that they can be only implemented by one of these complicated fever-dreams of a code system you keep suggesting.
Tdesc for this particular situation reverts us right back to where we started. You would be relying on player of the masked, and the observer, to both do what the code doesn't allow them to do: the masked must accept that only his face is covered, and the entire rest of his physical self is vulnerable to being positively identified. And the observer must accept that the masked's face is obscured. And both must be trusted to RP accordingly.
This already doesn't happen. That's WHY this thread exists. As long as there are players who reject either side of the responsibility, there will be a potentially fatal flaw (for the PCs involved) in the existing system. In the case of mdescs, the code doesn't support the roleplay. You can wear a veil on the hair that drapes down over the face, a face-obscuring helmet, with sunslits to make the eyes more difficult to see - and yet any templar will eventually be able to get someone to tell him that the girl with green eyes and scars criss-crossing her face is the one who he's looking for. This will happen even if the green-eyed, cross-scarred woman adds to her tdesc: Her face is completely hidden and veiled and shielded and you can't see what her face looks like. At all.
Stay on task, Lizzie. tdesc is just an example of how features are added to existing features over time to make them richer, it's not a way to replace mdesc-text (although it is, and has been, a simple, elegant, incremental step toward supporting that kind of roleplay with cooperating participants -- just like features suggested in this thread would be). Check the tdesc helpfile if you're having trouble with that.
In your rush to be contrary, you've also somehow tricked yourself into arguing against mdescs, at all, since now you actually are pointing out supposedly unsolvable conundrums with mdescs in-game. This was meant to be an example of something ridiculous to assert, not a position you should pursue. Of course there are always going to be inconsistencies; this is a computer program that outputs text, not an actual magical world.
The text coming from the game will never be a 100% perfectly accurate simulation of exactly what your imaginary character would experience within the imaginary world of the Zalanthas. (Put this on a post-it note by your monitor and review before incrementing your post-count if you must.) That is an insane standard to apply to any new feature or incremental improvement on the game. If this kind of logic was valid, no one would even bother to start making a roleplaying game, at all. You are basically saying that unless we can solve--in one fell swoop--one of the most fundamentally unsolvable software development problems of all time (All Abstractions Leak) in one of the most complex and ambitious settings imaginable (simulating an entire imaginary world), then we shouldn't do anything at all.
I'm urging you, instead of just airing your feelings about how something will never be the perfect ideal you have in your mind, maybe give a try to scripting a simple computer game. You may see things very differently once you take some time to think about how to get a computer to do something, rather than come up with excuses why they can't. They are very different tasks that yield very different results.
I'll suggest again the idea that we are able to choose, once (unless a psion), our way sdescs, and maybe even be able to assign it to separate way keywords. If the target for that is unknown, the game could only show the keywords that the contacter entered.
That fixes the way sdesc problem of sdescs. Think about it.
As for mdesc covering physically... it is a tricky problem. It would require hardcoding values, or tagging descriptor words somehow. When we designed this for Futuremud, we mixed the two together and use a series of patterns that mesh the desc words together, then give the player the option to choose which mdesc makes the most sense and reads the best. It means that eye colour, hair colour and all distinguishing looks are database values and the desc kept as a markup. All values could change during play and would automatically change in the descs.
Now that would be cool, but I'd happily settle with mostly hardcoded values and making people treat their entire mdesc as a tdesc, possibly having a memory bank of various writeup, and expect players not to abuse it. Their coded wear of clothing would also automatically hide the basics or not, meaning those values can't be written out by a cheaty tdesc.
I think it'd be really interesting tbh. Arm doesn't -need- freeform fixed akways on mdescs.
Quote from: catchall on January 23, 2016, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 23, 2016, 07:45:06 PM
There really is no way to "fix" it properly.
Actually, the simple, elegant, and (I'll be so bold as to say) correct solution has already been mentioned several times in this thread: Easy mdesc-hiding + easy study/examine command to see through it with a delay and echo. That's it.
If it must be done, this would be the way to do it. It doesn't require an overhaul of the description system (a rant on that to follow), and it provides relative anonymity for people who are actually trying not to get caught. If you were to hang around trolling your victim, he would find you out quickly. No matter who he is, or what his skills looked like.
Quote from: Dresan on January 23, 2016, 10:01:51 PM
There should be items that hide your Mdesc but they should be very expensive/rare, master merchant stuff.
Fuck man. Just no.
A piece of bone : 10 coins.
A scrap of leather : 25 coins.
Turning ordinary scrap into something useful for climbing or extra damage in combat: 2000 coins.
Zalanthan economics : senseless (at times).
So, there was a lot of back and forth about this coin with its two sides, and the simply put,
both sides are correct.My philosophy on sdesc & mdesc words is that they should be picked carefully to convey a sense of your character to other players. You know how it is said that people form an opinion of you in the first 5 seconds of meeting you? Well, in Armageddon, we form an immediate opinion of you based on your sdesc. And this opinion transcends merely seeing what you look like. Your sdesc often sets a tone for your character that is not easy to change. And at that rate "atramentous" and "black" are not the same thing.
If "the tall, black-haired man" and "the lofty, atramentous-locked man" walk into a bar and I bet you that you couldn't pick the noble without using the "look" command, who would you put your money on? Sure, nothing's
preventing you from rolling up "the lofty, atramentous-locked man" as a rinthi, and playing him as a disgusting, yellow-toothed lech, but I've never seen it done, because on some level we all know that that is a description for a more refined individual.
Should we describe you as "atrementous-locked" when someone asks us what you look like? No, probably not, but if you pick your keywords from a foreign-language thesaurus, and then whine that you're easy to pick out, you have no-one but yourself to blame. Don't play criminals that are so distinctive.
How about the other side where you play a totally nondescript guy, "the tall, brown-haired man". Is that cool? Absolutely. Nobody in any world, real or fantasy, can describe a person in such a way that they could be easily picked out of a crowd by a person who's never met them before. The only caveat is extremely distinctive features, but there's no way that applies to more than 5% of the population, and it doesn't say anywhere that you
have to play someone from that 5%. In fact, you probably
shouldn't. Thinking about it in real life terms, what is the police description of a suspect? Usually skin color, hair color, height/weight, clothing, scars or tattooes.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 27, 2016, 01:41:43 PM
Quote from: Dresan on January 23, 2016, 10:01:51 PM
There should be items that hide your Mdesc but they should be very expensive/rare, master merchant stuff.
Fuck man. Just no.
+1
Catchall's suggestion (which brings together the ideas above) is spot on: a detection skill coupled with masking gear/skill.
I do want to say that I played on a MUD where raise your hood on certain cloaks masked your mdesc. The annoying thing with this was that all the hoodlums would just run around with their hoods up, and you'd have no idea who was who. Which is the point, right? The problem is they would do it with no virtual consequences: they'd walk into the popular bar, hooded up, and just, in general, walk around with hoods up and have casual conversations. From my end, I was like: I'm speaking to someone I have no idea who they are, and they are acting like it's nothing at all!
That said, the solution here would be (in addition to the detection skill) to have Vennant insist on a hoods down policy -- put a bouncer at the door: Naw, we don't serve folks like you. Go back to the rinth. (If not the Gaj, at least Red's and those other fancy bars.)
If you are masked, you should be treated STRANGELY -- not just with suspicion.
Quote from: nauta on January 27, 2016, 01:58:40 PM
Catchall's suggestion (which brings together the ideas above) is spot on: a detection skill coupled with masking gear/skill.
I do want to say that I played on a MUD where raise your hood on certain cloaks masked your mdesc. The annoying thing with this was that all the hoodlums would just run around with their hoods up, and you'd have no idea who was who. Which is the point, right? The problem is they would do it with no virtual consequences: they'd walk into the popular bar, hooded up, and just, in general, walk around with hoods up and have casual conversations. From my end, I was like: I'm speaking to someone I have no idea who they are, and they are acting like it's nothing at all!
That said, the solution here would be (in addition to the detection skill) to have Vennant insist on a hoods down policy -- put a bouncer at the door: Naw, we don't serve folks like you. Go back to the rinth. (If not the Gaj, at least Red's and those other fancy bars.)
If you are masked, you should be treated STRANGELY -- not just with suspicion.
I played a guard on that game who threw countless people in jail or fined them for that.
If it means people would stop wearing ridiculous masks 24/7 or at least take them off at the bar to drink, I'm all for it.
Quote from: Delirium on January 27, 2016, 02:09:30 PM
If it means people would stop wearing ridiculous masks 24/7 or at least take them off at the bar to drink, I'm all for it.
Amen sista! Masks should have a condition on them that steadily lowers your wisdom the longer you have them on, since they're basically the Ed Hardy shirts of Zalanthas.
I make fun of people with masks on in-game... in my thoughts and feels, since they are usually muls. You should get the echo every five minutes:
The noxious stink of rotting flesh and fetid offal overwhelms your senses from inside the mask, and you shiver uncomfortably!
Well I would hope Guards and everyone would openly harass a sole mdesc hiding PC chilling at the bar.
You should, harass that type of person. Geeze.
Attempting to eat and drink while wearing a face-covering mask should be severely hindered, or made impossible.
You attempt to smoke a thickly packed tube of spice.
The dry material of your fancy mask quickly catches fire, burning your face!
Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 27, 2016, 07:21:23 PM
You attempt to smoke a thickly packed tube of spice.
The dry material of your fancy mask quickly catches fire, burning your face!
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/25/3f/4c/253f4ce4a492f665784fee148cd1931c.gif)
Hi. I've played my share of sneaks to varying degrees of success. Most of those degrees were failure, btw, especially early on. Just want to chip in with this: I'd like to trust you, but I don't. I don't trust you to not share that I'm a pickpocket or a burglar with whoever is in your Arm social circles. I don't trust you not to react like I murdered your baby if you catch my hand in your pocket in the Gaj. I don't trust you to not constantly use the watch command on me at all times the moment you know I can peek. I don't trust you not to spam movement away if I take a moment to emote coming out of the shadows. I don't trust that if I get a partial fail on steal, but I'm the only PC in the room, you won't go forward IC as if you had caught me in the act. If I don't want you to know my mdesc, its because time and time again my faith in this relationship between sneak and non-sneak has been betrayed. I don't dislike you. I just have to treat you like a volatile substance, and not let you ruin everything I've worked towards with your OOC motivations.
So, do I want masks and cloaks? Fuck yeah. I personally would prefer to only wear them on the job, though. I mean, wearing a mask elsewhere is basically announcing 'I am a threat' when you walk into the Gaj. Just treat the masked man like he's a masked man and they won't become the accepted norm. Besides, having played a criminal managing a public and a professional face? Its pretty damn fun to play both. I think the real question is, is it alright for a character to be outed and ruined because they fail a stealth-related roll, and you managed to get off a look command. I say no. Covering your face to hide your identity is like... the most basic precaution one can think of. Its frankly a little asinine I can't.
Covering your *face* isn't the issue though. The issue is that some people want a face-covering mask to obscure your entire mdesc.
I wouldn't mind complete mdesc hiding masks (which is honestly way easier to implement) if we increased alternative ways of gathering identifying information on a masked person.
Some random ideas --
Add more smells to people. Have they been riding a smelly mount recently? A beetle, or a lizard? Drinking a particular drink, eating a particular food or cure? Skinning animals? In the slaughterhouse? In the 'rinth?
Increase the granularity of the height comparisons in assess if possible.
Make it legal for anyone to subdue and even attack people in masks. Nobody knows who they are, and maybe wearing one is a crime that the soldiers are too lazy to care about. Remove your mask and you're 'safe' again.
I think the playerbase has demonstrated in the past that it is straight-up not responsible enough to handle mdesc-hiding gear. If you're a rogue who does rogue things to other PCs, you're just going to have to accept the fact that eventually, no mater how careful you are, you won't be able to hang out in the Gaj and chat like a normal person, unless you sell your soul to the Templarate.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 27, 2016, 02:20:01 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 27, 2016, 02:09:30 PM
If it means people would stop wearing ridiculous masks 24/7 or at least take them off at the bar to drink, I'm all for it.
Amen sista! Masks should have a condition on them that steadily lowers your wisdom the longer you have them on, since they're basically the Ed Hardy shirts of Zalanthas.
This killed me. lol
Quote from: CodeMaster on January 28, 2016, 12:08:20 PM
Increase the granularity of the height comparisons in assess if possible.
Everybody justs stacks their PC the top of the height range anyway. Doubtful how helpful this would be.
Well, I really hope I don't hear the same folks arguing against Mdesc hiding, gear complaining that there is a -Lack of Conflict- in a few months.
Though it would make me laugh.
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 29, 2016, 12:41:35 PM
Well, I really hope I don't hear the same folks arguing against Mdesc hiding, gear complaining that there is a -Lack of Conflict- in a few months.
Though it would make me laugh.
I think the mdesc-hiding gear was actually more dangerous for the people who possessed it than for anyone else. Like having a metal weapon or something...-everyone- wanted it, and was just waiting for a chance to gank you for it.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2016, 12:59:54 PMI think the mdesc-hiding gear was actually more dangerous for the people who possessed it than for anyone else. Like having a metal weapon or something...-everyone- wanted it, and was just waiting for a chance to gank you for it.
I stumbled upon a mask back in 2006.... I have never been PKed so quickly.
Heh, I guess that could be issue, but I imagine lots of double live PCs, swapping gear depending on situation but... who knows.
I perhaps because of bad experience just have issues with the honor system and there's a solid argument why it doesn't work. Because it asks a player to purposely lose or purposely allow a shady type to get away with it. Which is difficult because games gear players to 'win', everyone wants to win, it's instinctual.
There's no way to tell what a victim actually saw... in a realistic sense.
One of those area's I love if code just took over, so no one could cry foul or have the summon the humility to lose.
Though, would help if everyone didn't take up the pitch forks and torches the moment an antagonist is found.
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 29, 2016, 01:38:30 PM
Heh, I guess that could be issue, but I imagine lots of double live PCs, swapping gear depending on situation but... who knows.
I perhaps because of bad experience just have issues with the honor system and there's a solid argument why it doesn't work. Because it asks a player to purposely lose or purposely allow a shady type to get away with it. Which is difficult because games gear players to 'win', everyone wants to win, it's instinctual.
There's no way to tell what a victim actually saw... in a realistic sense.
One of those area's I love if code just took over, so no one could cry foul or have the summon the humility to lose.
Though, would help if everyone didn't take up the pitch forks and torches the moment an antagonist is found.
Perhaps true about the winning thing. The trick is to recognize that winning on Arm means having the best story... those of us who have realized that tend to have no problem with the honor system.
See a damning hemote without visible target? Look around with mild interest for a moment, go back to trying to bang the tressy aide.
Feel a failed picking attempt? Swat at the side of your cloak in annoyance, keep trying to bang Lord Templar Hardnose.
Unfortunately those who have yet to unlock the deeper mystery of this secret still tend to spamscan and autobash instead of paying attention to what Armageddon is really about, which is fucking bitches.
Quote from: Malifaxis on January 29, 2016, 02:21:58 PM
Unfortunately those who have yet to unlock the deeper mystery of this secret still tend to spamscan and autobash instead of paying attention to what Armageddon is really about, which is fucking bitches.
https://youtu.be/OPf0YbXqDm0
I'm sure the coders for this game could code up a Mdesc hiding garment in no time. I would just hazard to guess, they don't feel like it.
And for the record, I want this as a thing, but I also am a realist.
I doubt that's the issue, and it kind of trivializes the work the coders do. The MUD used to have these items, so I'd be willing to bet that they could just load up some old items from the database to the local merchants if they wanted it in the game. No extra code necessary. (Just guessing.)
The "realist" side of things is that this is at least the 3rd time someone has started this thread since these items were removed, so it's doubtful that staff actually wants them in game.
Eh. Even if staff wanted a way to hide Mdescs in-game it wouldn't have to be like it was and it could easily just not be going in becuase it's low on a priority list.
I actually meant to say something like this when fourtwenty was complaining about lots of things being asked for never going in and things never asked for going in instead: It doesn't matter how simple something is to implement, or how long it has been asked for. When you're given an ever-increasing to-do list that's being added to both from player and staff ideas, you're going to have things continually fall off. And other things will go in that not everyone is asking for. That's just how implementation of ideas work in any game more complicated than a pen and paper RPG.
Quote from: Malifaxis on January 29, 2016, 02:21:58 PM
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on January 29, 2016, 01:38:30 PM
Heh, I guess that could be issue, but I imagine lots of double live PCs, swapping gear depending on situation but... who knows.
I perhaps because of bad experience just have issues with the honor system and there's a solid argument why it doesn't work. Because it asks a player to purposely lose or purposely allow a shady type to get away with it. Which is difficult because games gear players to 'win', everyone wants to win, it's instinctual.
There's no way to tell what a victim actually saw... in a realistic sense.
One of those area's I love if code just took over, so no one could cry foul or have the summon the humility to lose.
Though, would help if everyone didn't take up the pitch forks and torches the moment an antagonist is found.
Perhaps true about the winning thing. The trick is to recognize that winning on Arm means having the best story... those of us who have realized that tend to have no problem with the honor system.
See a damning hemote without visible target? Look around with mild interest for a moment, go back to trying to bang the tressy aide.
Feel a failed picking attempt? Swat at the side of your cloak in annoyance, keep trying to bang Lord Templar Hardnose.
Unfortunately those who have yet to unlock the deeper mystery of this secret still tend to spamscan and autobash instead of paying attention to what Armageddon is really about, which is fucking bitches.
This is pretty much it. It's why I had to give up the dudes
Staff removed mdesc-hiding masks for some reason. Would have to ask a vet.
Storytime.
I found a veiled hat once, in some dusty storeroom, or something. I forget where I got it, but, I had it. This was after they'd been largely removed from the game.
It wasn't a particularly expensive or fancy looking hat.
I was debating on whether to ask staff to remove the flag or to just keep it and use it responsibly, when a character finds out I have it, and immediately offers me a whole heaping of money.
"It's just a hat," I say. "Nothing fancy."
Yes, well, they are still going to give me a couple thousand coin for it. They insist. They seemed amazed that was all I wanted for it.
I asked staff to remove the mdesc-hiding flag from it.
They did.
I sold the hat.
I'm not sorry.
Dick move, bro.
I've never possessed one of them, but I got the legit "drop pack" treatment from a bunch of Blackmoon raiders with the black leather masks, once.
p.s. you should feel sorry
I'm sure they were able to spam PP back up to solvency soon enough.
Personality-disorder-based ethics: fraud is okay as long as a) you don't like the person or b) they'll get over it.
Ph.D. here I come.
But that's the thing. I told them it wasn't worth that much money. They insisted on giving it. For entirely OOC reasons.
So... I'm okay with it.
Quote from: Delirium on February 09, 2016, 04:42:51 PM
But that's the thing. I told them it wasn't worth that much money. They insisted on giving it. For entirely OOC reasons.
So... I'm okay with it.
if placed into that position
i would have done the same thing.
you have nothing to apologize for.
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 09, 2016, 04:56:55 PM
Quote from: Delirium on February 09, 2016, 04:42:51 PM
But that's the thing. I told them it wasn't worth that much money. They insisted on giving it. For entirely OOC reasons.
So... I'm okay with it.
if placed into that position
i would have done the same thing.
you have nothing to apologize for.
Seriously.
My post calling everyone assholes got deleted. :(
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 09, 2016, 06:04:54 PM
badness
you definitely should not repost calling everyone assholes then.
Technically... ;)
I didn't do it, but if you already got modded once, likely best not to thumb your nose at them by repeating the same thing again.
Well, who knows if it was modded purposefully. A Staff/helper never said anything and there's other posts unmodded. I was "thumbing my nose" at them for an explanation, or so that maybe the rest of the off-topic stuff could be cleaned up.
Also, I will call a spade a spade.
there is no requirement to explain why you were moderated.
but it is nice to know.
keep mdescs visible.
I thought I was going to have an awesome log to post of the era before mdesc-hiding masks were removed...but apparently I didn't keep full logs back then. All it said was:
The very tall figure in a hooded, loose black silk greatcloak wearing a horn-cro
wned, silver silk mask closes the tarp from the other side.
I don't know why I only saved one line, but that was from a scene in which that dude bopped around the Gaj for 20 RL minutes, stealing people's stuff, getting seen (but of course no one could see anything but his mask when looking at him), walking out and in again, re-hiding, and stealing some more. It was one of the biggest, most annoying code-abuse scenes I've ever witnessed. This will always be the legacy of mdesc-hiding, to me. I'm not saying it couldn't add some things to the game, I just...the possibility for abuse is abysmal.