Armageddon General Discussion Board

Hi all,

As we move ahead with changes and additions to our current subguilds and guilds we need to update helpfiles to go with these. It seemed like an ideal time to broach with staff the question of 'detail' in our helpfiles.

I'm currently soliciting feedback from staff and would like players opinions also. Since this is a move that means a drastic change to long held philosophy of the game and once we 'go there' there's no going back.

Currently where the conversation is leaning:

- Helpfiles for subguilds and guilds will detail the starting skills.
- Heavily leaning towards also including all the branched skills and giving a complete skill list for each guild.
- Could go either way on including skill levels. We could leave those out, or we could note which ones get to 'master', or we could just list skill level caps for all.
- Right now thinking is that these should be for mundane guilds and subguilds only.

Please vote in the poll and give any feedback you have. I'd like to get the subguild helpfiles finalized soon so that we can roll out the changes, so feedback will help inform what extra info we need to put in to these!

thanks.

It's nice when somebody doesn't have to roll the dice on their guild. They're OOC constructs and people should be able to view them as such - I feel that way about a lot of coded aspects of the game. If I have a vision for my character, I don't want it hampered by the fact that I was unaware my guild didn't have access to one of the skills, or that it or another -eventually- branched into the aforementioned skill.

This'll help new players, and people won't need to go checking out that other website for the information.

Honestly it already "basically" tells you what each guild gets - some even suggest branched skills. I like it the way it is, but I'm not actually against any of the other decisions.

This has a lot to do with your vision of the game.

I dislike people even seeing skill levels, because I think it promotes meta-play since you directly see returns on things rather than 'guessing'.   That is a derail that I've gone on several times.

However, I bring it up because me, at that level, feel that help files should help.  I didn't learn skills from helpfiles when I started the game, I had other players helping me.  I didn't learn about 'branching' until three or four characters in, and it blew my mind.  I feel that at least the basic skills should be noted, and leave some of the rest to that exploratory process that grabbed me.

However, if we're moving away from that direction in the game (which we seem to be, fairly quickly at times, both as a playerbase and in a game direction), then I imagine most people will want full disclosure.  I'm okay with up to showing all skills gained, but really would prefer the line be drawn at levels.  I might be swayed by the argument for vague representations or comparisons.

By that I mean not outright saying 'This skill to master, this skill to master, this skill to advanced', but 'They tend to get this skill early on in their career, and later in life can be regarded as competent, but by no means as well practiced as <class> or <class>'.

The comparison to other classes/subguilds fulfills the same role as describing the skill level while also displaying the boons of each class.  Of course, this may be completely unnecessary, but probably due to my roots in this game, such explicitly given information feels....wrong.

Quote from: Saellyn on December 30, 2015, 05:20:32 PM
Honestly it already "basically" tells you what each guild gets - some even suggest branched skills. I like it the way it is, but I'm not actually against any of the other decisions.

Trimmed down, this mirrors my actual stance.  I feel like the current state of them does well, without giving away too much.  I'm just also trying to acknowledge that I may be in the minority.

OH MY GOD. I am so in favor of listing skills.  As a helper, the question I have been asked more than any other for years and years is "what skills does <guild/subguild> come with?"  I am often at a loss about what to say to people who ask me this, especially if the skill in question is a branchable skill that isn't subtly hinted at in the paragraph describing the guild.  I've never understood why we keep that sort of thing secret.  I understand that there's roleplay, and it's important to maintain a feeling of immersion.  I don't want to lose that at all. At the same time, someone should know if they'll one day be able to climb a wall or weave a basket when they're planning out their character, I think.

I like how our guilds are described though - it's more interesting and "storylike" than a boring branching list of skills.  I'd be sad to see that go.  Maybe the paragraph format could be kept, but just bold the skill names to make them more obvious - for example: "Warriors can use all types of weapons, from slashing and bludgeoning to chopping and piercing. As they grow skilled at these types of weapons, they learn to make use of more exotic weapons such as <whatever advanced weapon skills warriors get>."  I dunno, just a suggestion.

This is exciting.

I'd be for listing the starting skills, and what skills can branch, but not how. If some guilds need modification to make that more sensible, cool. I think the only masteries listed should be for crafting.

I promote this for Mundane guilds and subguilds. I think that gicks, psis, and sorc subguilds shouldn't receive this treatment. I think the experimentation and learning players do on their first magick user is wonderful and can promote RP for themselves, their mentors, misc. others. I chose the option that reveals all the skills but not their maximums, but thinking on it, having maximums listed is probably good. It's better to let the person know if their final concept of master chef is going to be possible before they spend all that time skilling up cooking to max out at upper advanced.

I voted option #3 (show all skills) but want to clarify that means mundanes. Mages should retain more mystery.

UNLESS you have the karma to play one without special app, then you should be able to see more detail when logged into your account.

List all skills, but only qualitatively describe the maximum potential in those skills compared to other guilds.

Still a relatively new player, this was one of my least favorite parts of trying to play this game.

First I totally overvalued the level of the skills that the sub-guild might be granting and then I choice race/guild combos that made my choice of sub-guild pointless.  Veterans already know and those able to search google can find out all this information.  Agree with hyzhenhok, that this description of caps should be in Novice/Apprentice/Journeyman qualitative way, not numbers that make no sense to anyone that doesn't know code.

I think it would be preferable for Armageddon's help files to be the first and best source for this information so that no one has to go looking for secondary sites.

Please also make it clear that if guild/subguild/racials all grant access to a skill, this doesn't change the cap for that skill, but it may allow you to use a skill without having to master another and branch.  I would have thought a race that was natural good at riding and had a guild with riding would be better than someone else of a different race.  This, over time, is not true.

QuoteShould not only list the skills, but also the level they reach (master, journeyman etc)

I voted for this one, albeit somewhat reluctantly.

I also agree with whitt that laying out the various racial bonuses and skills would be helpful.

Edit: Also agree with Delirium:

Quote from: Delirium on December 30, 2015, 05:52:08 PM
I voted option #3 (show all skills) but want to clarify that means mundanes. Mages should retain more mystery.

UNLESS you have the karma to play one without special app, then you should be able to see more detail when logged into your account.

Non-Mundane Guilds should remain mysterious, at least when it comes to things like spells. Mundane-skill quirks of non-mundane Guilds - like Rukkians having the best forage in the game - should be mentioned.

Hiding information just hurts new players. And the classic 'find out ic' makes little sense. People have been living their guild/subguild their entire lives. They should know.

Quote from: Delirium on December 30, 2015, 05:52:08 PM
I voted option #3 (show all skills) but want to clarify that means mundanes. Mages should retain more mystery.

UNLESS you have the karma to play one without special app, then you should be able to see more detail when logged into your account.

Yeah, same here.

Showing players what they're going to get for guild/subguild is only going to help newer players, something I'm very much in favor of. Questions for what sub guild to pick with a character concept is something I've seen come through the helper chat quite often.

I voted for showing everything. 

It's like this...

If everyone stuck to the idea of not passing around this sort of information through OOC contacts, it'd be great to keep it all very secret.  But a lot of people don't.  So I think that you might as well show everything, so that everyone has the same information.  It'll lessen the effect of the OOC networking, and help out people who are trying to bring a certain concept to life.

I voted for show everything.

I can't think of any real reason why this sort of thing would be kept a secret, though like most people I'd restrict this to Mundanes. As of right now the information is already in the helpfiles, but for some reason it's haphazardly available. The helpfiles already make frequent mention of which skills a guild has access to, as well as dropping hints about approximately how talented the guilds are at some skills (but not others).

I don't mind the subguild helpfiles so much, but the guild helpfiles are pretty terrible when it comes to this. It doesn't seem like the writers had any sort of plan for how much information they'd reveal and it was just all over the place. I expect that this is likely because there wasn't a plan at the time they were written. Conversely, when the subguild helpfiles were written there was a specific idea about how much information would be revealed as well as a more standardized terminology.

At the very least I'd reformat the guild help files so they matched the subguild helpfiles in information value.

I voted #4.  The PICKPOCKET help file actually is pretty good right now (although maybe it leaves some things out, not sure).  I'd be all for normalizing things to give that qualitative description (and not just a list).  Perhaps you could have: for more information, see here (and a link to a list for the number crunchers out there).

I agree with whitt's point about giving newbs the knowledge that the skills and caps don't stack (which is news to me, actually).  (I once made a pickpocket with acrobat thinking I'd be a badass climber, but I guess now I realize that's not the case.)

I also got burnt twice by the discovery that I won't get master on something.

When I began playing, I had no concept of the guild/subguild synergy. So, I had such wonderful combinations as Ranger/Hunter, and Merchant/House Servant, and (most successfully) Warrior/Guard.

Were these combinations complete and utter failures of the use of subguild choice? Now that I look back... yeah, they were pretty worthless choices. I made those choices because I was new, and I was ignorant about the way Armageddon is designed. Since then, I've learned much more about the game from others teaching me, and from my own research.

I've voted in the poll for all skills being listed (and their level) for mundane guilds and subguilds. The information is already out there, and easily accessible; moreover, everyone who has played Arm for more than a year knows the system inside and out. The way it is now only hurts the potential experiences of new players who approach it like I did.

Perhaps, and especially, list the skills and potential levels with extended mundane subguilds. Yeah, I know I can peruse every single ext. subguild helpfile and see the wink-nudge way their skills are already described; there was a whole thread around this itself. But that extended subguild is a three-times-a-year choice, and I don't want to gamble. I want to know what choices I can make to best create my character in the game, and enabling those choices only allows for richer, better-designed characters in my opinion.

Quote from: Refugee on December 30, 2015, 06:10:23 PM
I voted for showing everything. 

It's like this...

If everyone stuck to the idea of not passing around this sort of information through OOC contacts, it'd be great to keep it all very secret.  But a lot of people don't.  So I think that you might as well show everything, so that everyone has the same information.  It'll lessen the effect of the OOC networking, and help out people who are trying to bring a certain concept to life.

This is a great point.

You may as well show everything. There are plenty of skill lists floating around, and all that really happens is that players who try to play "by the rules" (or really, by the sociological conventions and pressures and expectations that "good players" won't look at skill lists, since knowing what skills a guild gets has never been against the rules) are at a disadvantage to people who aren't able to be pressured in that way.  It isn't fair at all.  Really, knowing what branches off of what and how high my skill level will get has never affected the immersion I feel when I tell stories with my characters. Never.

I'm fine with everyone seeing what all the non-magick and non-psionic skills are just by checking in a help file.

I don't think it's necessary to divulge which level each skill caps at. However, I think it would be a good idea to mark any skills that can be mastered (maybe bold it or put an asterisk on it). For the Merchant main guild, I'd do the opposite and just mark any skill that -cannot- be mastered (since most of them can).

I'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 30, 2015, 06:34:45 PMI'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it.

"The minority" are often new players, plenty of whom I'm sure have left the game when they discover the lack of transparency and confusing and often character-wrecking nature of guild and subguild choices.  And there's no kind of legitimacy to bootleg skill lists, they're certainly not on the website or on this forum. 

In one move you can legitimize skill lists for people who don't feel like trolling around instant messenger for them and potentially keep new players who might have left otherwise. Win win, I say.

Quote from: LauraMars on December 30, 2015, 06:41:36 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 30, 2015, 06:34:45 PMI'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it.

"The minority" are often new players, plenty of whom I'm sure have left the game when they discover the lack of transparency and confusing and often character-wrecking nature of guild and subguild choices.  And there's no kind of legitimacy to bootleg skill lists, they're certainly not on the website or on this forum. 

In one move you can legitimize skill lists for people who don't feel like trolling around instant messenger for them and potentially keep new players who might have left otherwise. Win win, I say.

+1

I don't think this thread is a moot point. Enabling new players to make better decisions with their character's capacity by having skill information available through a primary source might improve their chances of both enjoying their character and sticking around. Like LauraMars said, newbies want to know what gets what. It's not against the rules to know. Put the information into a primary source so that new players will have more success with their beginning characters.

Well.. I can see why you think it's a moot point, it's information that we assume everyone has as of now.  However, new players are at a disadvantage here with not having access to those lists.  Also, the reason we're looking at this now is we're about to change everything. So none of you will have accurate information as far as skill lists go.  Granted, the first part with subguilds shouldn't be that dramatic a change but there may be some major movement within the guild lists.  The question really is, do we leave it as is and say that players prefer 'not to know' and if they want to know they will seek out the information, or do we go one of the other routes.

Quote from: Asanadas on December 30, 2015, 06:44:44 PM
I don't think this thread is a moot point. Enabling new players to make better decisions with their character's capacity by having skill information available through a primary source might improve their chances of both enjoying their character and sticking around. Like LauraMars said, newbies want to know what gets what. It's not against the rules to know. Put the information into a primary source so that new players will have more success with their beginning characters.

I think you might have misread my post. I didn't say it's a moot point. I said:

QuoteI'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it (the skills list).

Bolded for emphasis this time.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 30, 2015, 07:10:17 PMI think you might have misread my post. I didn't say it's a moot point. I said:

QuoteI'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it (the skills list).

Bolded for emphasis this time.

I'm not sure you understand the point of this thread.  We're discussing revealing skill lists, branches, and caps on the website.  What does the fact that "many players have skill lists" have to do with whether or not to put skill lists on the website?

There is currently a clear winner in the poll. I'd like to broaden the discussion in this thread by asking for ideas on how the new information could be displayed:

Currently our guild helpfiles are just prose. If we were to introduce the full list of skills in a given guild and their associated level of mastery - how would it best be displayed? Bearing in mind a helpfile needs to be readable in both a browser and a MUD client.

Quote from: Rathustra on December 30, 2015, 07:30:12 PM
There is currently a clear winner in the poll. I'd like to broaden the discussion in this thread by asking for ideas on how the new information could be displayed:

Currently our guild helpfiles are just prose. If we were to introduce the full list of skills in a given guild and their associated level of mastery - how would it best be displayed? Bearing in mind a helpfile needs to be readable in both a browser and a MUD client.

Prose is good. It can be evocative, inspiring, and help introduce players to the setting.

However, it can also be ambiguous or unclear. I'd like to see Prose paragraphs (like we have now) with a clear skill list below. Fluff and Crunch.

Presentation-wise: I like how the PICKPOCKET help file reads (as long as it is exhaustive and consistent).  Notice how there is some suggestion of what level things cap at already in there (highlighted).  There's also references to what skills will branch (although no reference as to which skill those branch off of):

Quote
Pickpockets are masters of the art of stealing. They differ greatly from other thieves, such as burglars, in that the pickpocket's skill lies almost wholly in 'lifting' items directly from their victims.

Aside from stealing, a pickpocket's skills include some ability to climb walls, the knowledge of how to move silently in the city streets, and how to con merchants into giving lower prices than they intend to.

Some small skill with weapons is also a pickpocket's province, as well as how to beat a hasty retreat. Expert pickpockets usually learn how to become unseen and how to listen to conversations going on nearby. Later on in their careers, pickpockets can learn how to effectively use a sap and knock their mark unconscious for removal of larger items, as well as silencing guards.

Typically, pickpockets work on their own, nicking whatever they can from targets passing by. However, some pickpockets can obtain contracts to steal specific items, and very good pickpockets can develop reputations which will earn them very highly paid contracts. Fortunate pickpockets are able to obtain permanent contracts with noble houses or even from templars.

Even so, there's inconsistency.  We never learn what level a pickpocket caps at with sneak, hide, flee, etc. etc.

You could include a link at the bottom to a straight up 'list' of skills, the branches, and the caps, for those that prefer that 'view' on the data.  For myself, I don't like that, I prefer the qualitative descriptions we have currently (but with more information).

(This reminds me of the International Panel for Climate Change discussions on how to translate percentages into English words, e.g., probable, very likely, almost certain.)

Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 30, 2015, 07:33:17 PMHowever, it can also be ambiguous or unclear. I'd like to see Prose paragraphs (like we have now) with a clear skill list below. Fluff and Crunch.

Though I personally really enjoy the prose paragraphs, on thinking further about it I agree that for a new player they're awfully hard to parse out into skills, if not impossible (I sure didn't do it). Having a skill list below the prose would help a lot.  I'd rather not have percentages or numbers ever, though.  Skill caps as they appear in game would probably be enough (journeyman, master, etc) - what do others think?

Quote from: Rathustra on December 30, 2015, 07:30:12 PM
There is currently a clear winner in the poll. I'd like to broaden the discussion in this thread by asking for ideas on how the new information could be displayed:

Currently our guild helpfiles are just prose. If we were to introduce the full list of skills in a given guild and their associated level of mastery - how would it best be displayed? Bearing in mind a helpfile needs to be readable in both a browser and a MUD client.

I'd like to see it listed the way it's listed on the skills list, minus the number stuff. Or in table form, but similarly. Example (I hope this translates onto the forum code):


List for Guild_Lizzie
  contact
  barrier 
  nailpolishing
  . nail art
  . gel application
  cat-sitting
  . flea-powder application
  listen 
  . ignore
  retail
  . pen of the month sales
  . extended warrantee sales
  . . returns with no receipt


I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 30, 2015, 08:08:45 PM
I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

Also it would be a lot less work seeing as how the current helpfiles have information not directly relevant to skills that would have to be worked into a new version.

Oh god, finally. Fucking finally. I love the direction staff is heading with ideas like this.

Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 30, 2015, 08:08:45 PM
I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

+1

Love that this is happening. Guild/subguild skills are definitely among the "gamiest" parts of Armageddon. I say it's better to have full OOC knowledge of these gamier limitations so you can be aware of them and work around them in a way that makes IC sense. It also helps players effectively choose a guild/sub for the character concept they envision.

Quote from: whitt on December 30, 2015, 08:38:20 PM

Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 30, 2015, 08:08:45 PM
I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

+1

Good line of thinkin.

I like it the way it is, but reason told me that to vote for full disclosure . After all, I used to favour rangers, and even in Kurac, I assumed with enough sneaking my PC would develop the skill.
I would still like words written  above the skill list. Words give me the feels.

Quote from: Rathustra on December 30, 2015, 07:30:12 PM
There is currently a clear winner in the poll.

I think it's important to point out that a majority (as the votes stand) do not want mastery level included. The choices offer increasingly more revealed information, so I would interpret the winner as option 3, even though a plurality (again, as things stand now) picked option 4.

QuoteI'd like to broaden the discussion in this thread by asking for ideas on how the new information could be displayed:

Currently our guild helpfiles are just prose. If we were to introduce the full list of skills in a given guild and their associated level of mastery - how would it best be displayed? Bearing in mind a helpfile needs to be readable in both a browser and a MUD client.

I like the idea of having a paragraph description, like we have now, followed by a list of skills. 

I voted for option 3 in the poll, but now I'm leaning towards option 4. A lot of the helpfiles hint at what level of mastery is achievable by each guild anyway. If we're making other things explicit, might as well go there too.

Quote from: Beethoven on December 30, 2015, 11:18:58 PM
I voted for option 3 in the poll, but now I'm leaning towards option 4. A lot of the helpfiles hint at what level of mastery is achievable by each guild anyway. If we're making other things explicit, might as well go there too.

Yeah, this was exactly my thought process.  I voted for option 3, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized option 4 seemed better all around.  I'd change my vote if I could. Oh well.

Quote from: Adhira on December 30, 2015, 07:08:23 PM
Also, the reason we're looking at this now is we're about to change everything. So none of you will have accurate information as far as skill lists go.  Granted, the first part with subguilds shouldn't be that dramatic a change but there may be some major movement within the guild lists.

Hold on to your assholes, kids.  8) 8) 8)

Yeah, give us the lists, tell us who masters what, for mundane classes.

Keep magickers magikal.

Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 30, 2015, 08:08:45 PM
I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

I like this.

Quote from: Drayab on December 31, 2015, 12:36:32 AM

Quote from: Adhira on December 30, 2015, 07:08:23 PM
Also, the reason we're looking at this now is we're about to change everything. So none of you will have accurate information as far as skill lists go.  Granted, the first part with subguilds shouldn't be that dramatic a change but there may be some major movement within the guild lists.

Hold on to your assholes, kids.  8) 8) 8)

Yeah, give us the lists, tell us who masters what, for mundane classes.

Keep magickers magikal.

Wait what? The way I read that was that skills are bacially being fucked with? As in basically remove skills in some places and put skills in others?

Yep, they're completely changing the guild system in the future.

Major movement within the guild lists sounds like a pretty big announcement to me! Yeah, sounds like there are plans in the works to (maybe?) re-shuffle who gets what and to what degree they get it. I'm sure rangers will still ranger and warriors will still chop with bone swords but... who knows?

Honestly, there are so many way they can go, and almost all of them sound better. The guild system is pretty outdated.

It's exciting to see so much work being done lately. It's a real flurry compared to the past. I'm happy with the current system, however. Definitely agreed they could go so many ways with it, but my (admittedly knee-jerk) reaction is to feel cynical about changes being made to a game I've played and loved for a long time. Thinking about it rationally, I have confidence that staff wouldn't make these decisions lightly. The mere fact that it's been mentioned here leads me to suppose that a whole lot has already been done staff-side. What else can I say? I guess we live in exciting times.  ;D

It's actually been mentioned before, in the sub-guild re-distribution and changes thread.

We've mentioned before that it's something we're working on. Rathustra and I have been tinkering with subguilds for over  a month, close to two. Yesterday I stubbed out all the changes in a file living on ginka. Rathustra has been tinkering with helpfiles. Ness is going to be loading up files for testing and we'll hopefully be good to go with this first part soon.   As I stated when we were discussing a few subguild things 6 weeks or so ago, guilds would be next on the list.

These aren't entirely new projects, they're projects we've been throwing around in the Producer team for some time (couple of years in fact!) but haven't seen them through to the production stage.

If they are re-arranging things, then the argument that runs from "it's already out there anyway" to option #4 doesn't have as much teeth, since the skill lists on coughcough will be deprecated -- and potentially, providing there's no leak, it could remain a secret for quite a while.  (That said, I still voted #4, because I can think of several other good reasons to put it out in the open: planning a character concept, for one.)

I'm also a big fan of keeping the magickal skill branches hidden from even the magicker -- you could even have the spell trees and their branches randomize (per magicker or per year).

I would just like to note that there is actually a higher number of votes for NOT listing what levels the skills max out at.

While I personally like it how it is, I do want to make sure people realize that FEWER people collectively voted for listing the levels of all of the skills.

As it sits 26 people voted to show all skills and what levels they reach.

31 people have voted to NOT show what levels the skills reach.

52 people have voted to show the list of skills, if nothing else.

Quote from: Desertman on December 31, 2015, 01:54:16 PM
I would just like to note that there is actually a higher number of votes for NOT listing what levels the skills max out at.

While I personally like it how it is, I do want to make sure people realize that FEWER people collectively voted for listing the levels of all of the skills.

As it sits 26 people voted to show all skills and what levels they reach.

31 people have voted to NOT show what levels the skills reach.

52 people have voted to show the list of skills, if nothing else.

At least one person stated they would change their vote to show levels if they could. So subtract at least that. In fact, subtract two - I originally voted for skills + branch but not level, but after consideration I'd like to know in some way what skills are masterable, if not necessarily what all the skills reach.

I'm having a hard time understanding the motivation for not wanting to show skill caps. It's honestly superfluous at this point since the veil's long been lifted and anyone can get this information by googling it or visiting jcarter.org, but are there any advantages for not showing the specifics other having a one up one newer players who are too honest to cheat?

If it were up to me we wouldn't show skill levels at all outside of letting merchants know when their crafting skill was adequate to submit their mastercrafts.

I feel the game lost something when we started showing skill levels at all.

#veteranuphillinthesnowbothwayscomplaints

Quote from: Desertman on December 31, 2015, 01:54:16 PM
I would just like to note that there is actually a higher number of votes for NOT listing what levels the skills max out at.

While I personally like it how it is, I do want to make sure people realize that FEWER people collectively voted for listing the levels of all of the skills.

As it sits 26 people voted to show all skills and what levels they reach.

31 people have voted to NOT show what levels the skills reach.

52 people have voted to show the list of skills, if nothing else.

That's an actual issue with polls that use first past the post system (Also known as winner takes all).

Typically, with winner takes all, you keep choices Binary.

Unless we're going to do The single transferable vote but then we would have to run the poll again.

Not that any of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, I just wanted to talk about voting systems.

I would change my vote to show skill levels. The more I think about it, the more I think how many concepts could be crippled if you couldn't ultimately grow in that direction due to not knowing where your ultimate limits will be.

Having to learn ooc mechanisms through ic experience kinda sucks.

However - my vote foe hiding magick or otherwise ic sensitive details from those without the karma levels to unlock them still stands.

People will always find ways to cheat but that at least helps keep the mystery alive for those who want it.

Quote from: hopeandsorrow on December 31, 2015, 02:19:59 PM

Quote from: Desertman on December 31, 2015, 01:54:16 PM
I would just like to note that there is actually a higher number of votes for NOT listing what levels the skills max out at.

While I personally like it how it is, I do want to make sure people realize that FEWER people collectively voted for listing the levels of all of the skills.

As it sits 26 people voted to show all skills and what levels they reach.

31 people have voted to NOT show what levels the skills reach.

52 people have voted to show the list of skills, if nothing else.

That's an actual issue with polls that use first past the post system (Also known as winner takes all).

Typically, with winner takes all, you keep choices Binary.

Unless we're going to do The single transferable vote but then we would have to run the poll again.

Not that any of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, I just wanted to talk about voting systems.

It's a very valuable point if it changes how people interpret the choices and results of the poll.

So at least 4 people who initially voted to hide skill levels would now vote to show skill levels if they could (myself included).  Bit nitpicky to point it out, but that number doesn't seem to be going the other way.

It doesn't seem nitpicky to me, since it does change the results if 4 votes were removed from option 3 and placed in the option 4 category. It makes it 27 against showing skill levels and 31 pro.

Of course, it's kind of hard to verify who voted for what, so I don't think this can be taken into consideration.

Quote from: Beethoven on December 31, 2015, 03:22:39 PM
It doesn't seem nitpicky to me, since it does change the results if 4 votes were removed from option 3 and placed in the option 4 category. It makes it 27 against showing skill levels and 31 pro.

Of course, it's kind of hard to verify who voted for what, so I don't think this can be taken into consideration.

It's also a bit difficult when you consider the number of people who pay no attention to the GDB at all.

I voted for show it all, for a couple reasons.

First of all, its really something the staff should have done long before you could google the information. The reason is because much of that information out there, dated as it may be was given to players from their buddies who were staff. There are alot of people here who talk to other players OOCly through messengers, some of those players become staff and in the past have clearly had no problems passing down all types of information whether code or plot. People here also meet OOCly and have no problem exchanging all kinds of information too.

Some of these people, some of these hypocrites I should say, then comes over here to tell others 'Find Out IC'. And this has been going on for years, long before you could just google the information.

Secondly, I am all for keeping a lot of things secret like plots, details of magick and locations just to name a few but mundane character skills shouldn't be one of those things. As its been mentioned it puts newer players at such a huge disadvantage. No one should be wasting their time playing something they aren't going to enjoy, and this is just another hurdle for new players.

Finally staff has recently been asking for feedback. This has been such a boon to the game. I really hope for it to continue. I can't wait to discuss mundane guids. However its annoying that we still cannot talk about relevant skills freely. I think one guild should have one skill, or another guild should have another skill removed so it doesn't feel so op. I can't really talk about these things when there is still this culture of secrecy with some staff members despite the skills and other things I'm talking about are listed in the helpfiles, are available on google, and are already mentioned several times in the gdb and perhaps even in the very same thread by other players and even staff members.

I feel like the policy on what we will be allowed to talk about in regards to character skill code here also needs to be reaffirmed after this change as well. We have staff members who have no problem talking about the results of testing the code to see the effectiveness of offense skill vs weapon skills, but then we can't even mention that rangers get wilderness stealth like its mentioned in the game help-files on the GDB without getting edited? Its frustrating, so I hope with this change comes a more clear policy too.   :-\

I voted for the first option, I like things as they are personally.  
Then again I like figuring stuff out the hard way, and still am
Relatively inexperienced when it comes to knowing "what guild/subguild
can do what and how well" But, im in the minority on this and can
Simply choose to not look at the official lists just like I chose
Not to bother googling those "other" sites.

i can get excited for my next role just from reading the guild's help file.  I hope the story like ICness of the guild help files remains intact :)

skill lists or careful revising of the abilities paragraphs would probably be a net benefit for playability.  I'd rather see comparisons (they are second to none at x, they are competitive with warriors at y) than explicit levels (they can get x to journeyman).  more demanding on the help file writers :)

on mobile

Personally I'll still pick something that sounds kinda like what I want to play and not bother to read the skill lists in depth.

But then again I haven't been really into the nuts and bolts of the game since the dark days of Cyberpatrol. So yeah.. I still don't know the Known like the back of my hand, I don't have a map drawn out and I don't know every class skill list and every branch requirement.

And frankly, I don't want to.

Derail aside, I would like a full disclosure for people who want it and skin deep disclosure for people who want that.

If for example you want to investigate the House Servant subguild.. the 'shallow' help file might give a brief example of a House Servant and what they would do. But optionally the skill list is there if required in a help file or info bloc referred to by the shallow one.

I would also like racial skills and their caps shown too.

Also for any actual skills lists/trees - I'd definitely like to see them as an *optional* hyperlink from the standard help file.

The Guild_Lizzie is a must-have for anyone wanting to polish their nails. They can root around in the scrublands, their natural home, to find bits and pieces of materials to make polish, and easily whittle orange-sticks to push back their own cuticles.

Blah blah blah blah you can find the skill tree here: (with the hyperlink that directs you to the skills list, which is otherwise hidden from the website)

Quote from: Lizzie on January 01, 2016, 10:36:26 AM
Also for any actual skills lists/trees - I'd definitely like to see them as an *optional* hyperlink from the standard help file.

The Guild_Lizzie is a must-have for anyone wanting to polish their nails. They can root around in the scrublands, their natural home, to find bits and pieces of materials to make polish, and easily whittle orange-sticks to push back their own cuticles.

Blah blah blah blah you can find the skill tree here: (with the hyperlink that directs you to the skills list, which is otherwise hidden from the website)

+1

Yeah, this would be great for people like me

Show all. Tell all. Except for gickers..say nothing..know nothing.

Adhira........don't changer my rangers...please.

Quote from: Lizzie on January 01, 2016, 10:36:26 AM
Also for any actual skills lists/trees - I'd definitely like to see them as an *optional* hyperlink from the standard help file.

The Guild_Lizzie is a must-have for anyone wanting to polish their nails. They can root around in the scrublands, their natural home, to find bits and pieces of materials to make polish, and easily whittle orange-sticks to push back their own cuticles.

Blah blah blah blah you can find the skill tree here: (with the hyperlink that directs you to the skills list, which is otherwise hidden from the website)

Yes please. 

I'm one of those who has never used outside sources to cheat because I really don't care, and also because it pleases me to unexpectedly branch something.  I voted skill trees only and not levels, by the way, but I'm not really married to the concept as long as I don't have to see the levels.  What I like about not knowing about skill levels and branching trees right now is that I can just play my character without worrying about coded advancement.  If I can see the levels, I'll want to attain the levels.  I'm not sure I have the discipline to not care if the information is staring me in the face, but if I have to go the extra mile to seek it out, I'm not going to.

Knowing OOC info is hardly cheating. Unless every staff member is a cheater when they play a character.

I don't necessarily want to know every branch and every max level but I do like knowing "I will only make it to JMan in X skill for ranger"

Quote from: Norcal on January 01, 2016, 01:49:57 PM
Show all. Tell all. Except for gickers..say nothing..know nothing.

Adhira........don't changer my rangers...please.

No promises.

Hi guys. I've gotten done re-writing all the 0 karma subguild help files and a few of the extended subguild ones. Here's an example of the format I've decided on, using the prevailing opinion here:


OUTLAW:

  Outlaws live at the edge of civilisation, operating out of
lawless settlements such as the Mul Outpost and Red
Storm.  These individuals are adept at sneaking their way
quietly across terrain to get the drop on their victims. 
Where the rugged landscape calls for it, Outlaws are also
able to climb to hard-to-reach areas.  Stormy weather is
no impediment to their travels either.  Outlaws are also
quite self-sufficient, being able to craft their own spears
and knives as well as patch up any damage to their armor.

  Outlaws can learn knife making, spear making, armor
repair and direction sense to the level of advanced.  They
can also reach the level of journeyman in sneak and climb. 


This and the rest of the changes will be going live once the subguild renovations are complete.

I really like that format Rath.  

While I personally like transparency in skill levels and such, some people may appreciate it if you have a 'spoiler' style coding, or simply having the font coloring match the background on the second paragraphs for those of us who prefer to be surprised.

That looks great. One thing that is probably just a nitpick.

I'd make

QuoteOutlaws can learn knife making, spear making, armor
repair and direction sense to the level of advanced.  They
can also reach the level of journeyman in sneak and climb.  

more like

QuoteOutlaws can learn knife making, spear making, armor
repair and direction sense to an advanced degree.  Though
can only become journeymen in sneak and climb.  

Or something similar. Just sounds a little less gamey imo.

Speaking of living at the edge of civilization!

Quote
  Outlaws live at the edge of civilisation...

Is this near the Grey Forest or the Gray Forest, or whichever colour it is??  (Ok, I'll stop now.  Great work!)

Excellent.

Personally if you're going to "tell us the answer" with regards to proficiency, I'd rather that part of the text be colored out, and in list form. Keep the OOC code jargon completely isolated away from the "narrative" description of the guild itself.

How is Red Storm lawless when it has a militia and laws

It's more like the lawless go there.

Quote from: Case on January 03, 2016, 09:49:59 PM
How is Red Storm lawless when it has a militia and laws

The laws consist of:

No slaves....
No killing/stealing/magick in the streets where guards can see....

That's it.  Not even a fraction of the laws and organizational structures in Allanak or Tuluk, or even Luirs.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 04, 2016, 01:49:48 AM

Quote from: Case on January 03, 2016, 09:49:59 PM
How is Red Storm lawless when it has a militia and laws

The laws consist of:

No slaves....
No killing/stealing/magick in the streets where guards can see....

That's it.  Not even a fraction of the laws and organizational structures in Allanak or Tuluk, or even Luirs.

Not guards, militia, and lol, that is not a lawless place. Geez. Having a central authority of rules backed up by force is entirely organised.

Well, I think you can say of all the 'civilized' places in the known, Red Storm is the least 'lawful'?

Quote from: wizturbo on January 04, 2016, 02:05:25 AM
Well, I think you can say of all the 'civilized' places in the known, Red Storm is the least 'lawful'?

That'd go to Cenyr or some unknown tribal place or something like the Mul Outpost. I know it feels convenient to consider Red Storm as lawless anarchyville, but it's really not at all.

Quote from: Rathustra on January 03, 2016, 05:30:43 PM
Hi guys. I've gotten done re-writing all the 0 karma subguild help files and a few of the extended subguild ones. Here's an example of the format I've decided on, using the prevailing opinion here:

Code Select Expand


OUTLAW:

  Outlaws live at the edge of civilisation, operating out of
lawless settlements such as the Mul Outpost and Red
Storm.  These individuals are adept at sneaking their way
quietly across terrain to get the drop on their victims. 
Where the rugged landscape calls for it, Outlaws are also
able to climb to hard-to-reach areas.  Stormy weather is
no impediment to their travels either.  Outlaws are also
quite self-sufficient, being able to craft their own spears
and knives as well as patch up any damage to their armor.

  Outlaws can learn knife making, spear making, armor
repair and direction sense to the level of advanced.  They
can also reach the level of journeyman in sneak and climb. 


This and the rest of the changes will be going live once the subguild renovations are complete.

Awesome!

Please don't derail this thread.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 03, 2016, 06:19:20 PM
That looks great. One thing that is probably just a nitpick.

I'd make

QuoteOutlaws can learn knife making, spear making, armor
repair and direction sense to the level of advanced.  They
can also reach the level of journeyman in sneak and climb.  

more like

QuoteOutlaws can learn knife making, spear making, armor
repair and direction sense to an advanced degree.  Though
can only become journeymen in sneak and climb.  

Or something similar. Just sounds a little less gamey imo.

I would disagree.  Awkwardly adding in the skill level words so that they sound like natural speech into a couple dozen helpfiles is going to be incredibly tedious for both the reader and the writer.  

The players of this game are cognitively aware that they are playing a game and that these helpfiles are meant to help them make decisions about their choices in how they play it, so I'm fine with it sounding 'gamey' because after all, it is a game.

Its a feedback thread. My assumption is that the tedious nature of updating things is moot at best. I think RGSs feedback just flows better, and reads better. "The level of" just feels clunky.

The point of a helpfile is to convey information. I don't mind if it's clunky so long as it's clear, thus I prefer the original version.

Quote from: Rathustra on January 03, 2016, 05:30:43 PM
Hi guys. I've gotten done re-writing all the 0 karma subguild help files and a few of the extended subguild ones. Here's an example of the format I've decided on, using the prevailing opinion here:

Code Select Expand


OUTLAW:

  Outlaws live at the edge of civilisation, operating out of
lawless settlements such as the Mul Outpost and Red
Storm.  These individuals are adept at sneaking their way
quietly across terrain to get the drop on their victims. 
Where the rugged landscape calls for it, Outlaws are also
able to climb to hard-to-reach areas.  Stormy weather is
no impediment to their travels either.  Outlaws are also
quite self-sufficient, being able to craft their own spears
and knives as well as patch up any damage to their armor.

  Outlaws can learn knife making, spear making, armor
repair and direction sense to the level of advanced.  They
can also reach the level of journeyman in sneak and climb. 


This and the rest of the changes will be going live once the subguild renovations are complete.

This is perfect. Absolutely perfect.

<snip> whoops.

SO PERFECT I HAVE TO POST IT TWICE

I'm wondering what the "branching " language loks like...any different from now?

Just a quick thought on the branching aspect: I really like not knowing what branches what.  It forces you to round out your character's skillset, instead of just plugging away at one skill, and it's always a pleasant surprise to branch.  That said, I -do- want to know what skills my guild/subguild will eventually branch, mostly for the OOC purpose of character concept planning.

Quote from: nauta on January 15, 2016, 12:09:26 PM
Just a quick thought on the branching aspect: I really like not knowing what branches what.  It forces you to round out your character's skillset, instead of just plugging away at one skill, and it's always a pleasant surprise to branch.  That said, I -do- want to know what skills my guild/subguild will eventually branch, mostly for the OOC purpose of character concept planning.

For me this is entirely frustrating.  I dislike the entire concept of branching because it requires mastery of the previous skill.  If the skills branched at Advanced instead of Master maybe? I don't want to have to pursue each of my starting skills to Master just to see if they branch that other skill I picked this class for.  I don't want to know that every Guild X with skill Z must have mastered skill Y already.  Furthermore, I may not even want my character to be good at Y, but I am "forced" to master it to get to skill "Z", then despite never using skill Y again, I will remain at mastery.  Not a fan.  Maybe if branched skills could be opened up via teaching prior to Mastery, that would suffice, but to need to wrap my head around, nope I can't Z until I've gotten better at Y, but you just wait.  One month after I've gotten really good at Y, I'll be the best Zer ever... :(

I like the idea of branching happening at journeyman.

Huh.  I didn't know that branching only happened at master.  I assumed it was different for different skills/guilds, some branched whatever at journeyman or even apprentice others at master and so on.  I'd have to agree then that more variance here would be cool.  I do hate waiting on the branched skill if my concept has it as an essential feature.

Related to branching:

Sometimes the child skill follows intuitively from the parent, e.g., (just making this up since I don't know what branches what) fletchery from archery or bandagemaking from bandages or expel from contact/barrier or whatever).

But sometimes the child skill doesn't follow intuitively from any given skill in your skillset, e.g., blindfighting or listen.  In those cases, I kind of view the magic of having branched as a gestalt thing: I've now reached the level in my guild to have a new idea of something guild-like I can do.  It wasn't any one given skill, just kind of a holistic thing.

Another problem with continuing to hide branch points is that you only need to branch once to know. A vet who wants X skill is not going to round out Y and Z if he only needs to master Y.

Lack of information just leaves the advantage with veterans (or anyone willing to find out through OOC channels).

Branching doesn't happen exclusively at master. Just most of the time.

I like nauta's idea of different 'versions' of (e.g.) ranger with different starting skills and branch trees.  One version of ranger might start with all the hunting skills available, the other might start with all the melee skills available.

Branching happens at Mon, silly newbs sheesh.

Quote from: Asmoth on January 15, 2016, 01:25:35 PM
Branching happens at Mon, silly newbs sheesh.

Incorrect.

(http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2ndt5IqSH1qdd47ao4_250.gif)