So crafting on arm was pretty revolutionary when it first came out. . And a lot of neat changes have been made, but it can be frustrating and feel dated compared to what other games offer these days.
The addition of tools has been nice, but I think the biggest frustration I have is the guess and check method of crafting. Because items are very specific in crafting (and if I'm not mistaken, recipes are very limited) and items can not accept alternatives without having completely different crafts, you're stuck with a solution where you need say a leather square for something, which could arguably be made from many different types of leather, but of course it needs to be a -specific- hide and good luck figuring out which.
So I get that a lot of code in Arm would take a herculean task to overhaul and that major changes to crafting probably will never happen, but I wonder what players think about an addition of a skill that lets you figure out how something might be made. Wait you mean analyze? No. I mean like analyze only this skill would work without needing you to already possess the item you are trying to recreate .
Unlike analyze which works on a specific item and tells you how it is made this would be a skill based on itself plus the crafting talent you are seeking knowledge of and try to guess options for making it.
So for instance Say I had a leather square:
Analyze square = here's how you make it
new skill leather square = Here are a few leather square type items and how you might make them.
I would give this skill a limitation that it would be extremely ineffective at guessing complex crafts (requiring a bunch of items) So it would never replace analyze, but it might make the crafting system in general less painful.. Plus new skill. Would be cool to have a new skill in the game.
Not sure if I'm following you. If you have a leather square, and you want to know the things you can do with it, you use the "craft" command.
craft square
You think you can make a leather square pocketbook from this.
You think you can make a leather square collar from this.
You think you can make a pair of shoes from this.
etc. etc.
Are you suggesting being able to know what you can do with a material that you don't have?
So, like, a keyword search based on your existing skills? So for instance:
You have no raw materials in your inventory at all.
craft square
[leatherworking] a square pocketbook
[leatherworking] a square collar
[leatherworking] a pair of shoes
[armocrafting] a square hauberk
[clothworking] a nifty pair of leather pants
[clothworking] a pretty pink silk square hankie
[jewelrymaking] a square-cut green tourmaline engagement ring
Is that what you mean?
Moe's easier-on-the-codebase ideas:
1) Allow analyze to target items people are wearing.
2) Have the craft command look for other items available to you. (EDIT for clarity: immediately available to you, such as in your inventory or in the room.)
>inv
You are carrying:
A length of white linen
A set of ivory buttons
A length of blue thread
>craft linen
You could make a white linen shirt with that.
You could make a pair of white linen pants with that.
You could make a white buttoned shirt with that and a set of ivory buttons.
You could make a pair of embroidered white linen pants with that and a length of blue thread.
You could make an embroidered, white buttoned shirt with that, a set of white buttons, and a length of blue thread.
Or even just...
>craft
You could make a white linen shirt with a length of white linen.
You could make a pair of white linen pants with a length of white linen.
You could make a white buttoned shirt with a length of white linen and a set of ivory buttons.
You could make a pair of embroidered white linen pants with a length of white linen and a length of blue thread.
You could make an embroidered, white buttoned shirt with a length of white linen, a set of white buttons, and a length of blue thread.
(Maybe with an output limit to force people to specify some ingredients when many are available.)
2b) Extend that functionality to include items in a shop inventory. (EDIT for more clarity: a shop you're currently standing in.)
EDIT: 1b) Allow analyze to target things in shop inventory as well.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 20, 2015, 10:42:09 AM
Not sure if I'm following you. If you have a leather square, and you want to know the things you can do with it, you use the "craft" command.
craft square
You think you can make a leather square pocketbook from this.
You think you can make a leather square collar from this.
You think you can make a pair of shoes from this.
etc. etc.
Are you suggesting being able to know what you can do with a material that you don't have?
So, like, a keyword search based on your existing skills? So for instance:
You have no raw materials in your inventory at all.
craft square
[leatherworking] a square pocketbook
[leatherworking] a square collar
[leatherworking] a pair of shoes
[armocrafting] a square hauberk
[clothworking] a nifty pair of leather pants
[clothworking] a pretty pink silk square hankie
[jewelrymaking] a square-cut green tourmaline engagement ring
Is that what you mean?
Yes I am suggesting being able to FIGURE OUT[edit-added] craft from materials you don't have. The problems I'm trying to address are a couple of things.
1> Real life isn't so strict as arm is with this. It's a code limitation that each craft can only be made one way or the staff have to make variant crafts to create the same thing in order to give the player options.
2> A real person can figure out what they need to make something better than you can in game. The leather square example is because it's extremely generic, but in game it's actually pretty specific. There is a lot of crafting headache created by a problem generated entirely by code limitations and I think it's reasonable to assume that characters would be able to figure some of these things out without actually having the item in hand to analyze. Clearly limitations would need to apply though.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 20, 2015, 10:55:51 AM
Moe's easier-on-the-codebase ideas:
1) Allow analyze to target items people are wearing.
2) Have the craft command look for other items available to you.
>inv
You are carrying:
A length of white linen
A set of ivory buttons
A length of blue thread
>craft linen
You could make a white linen shirt with that.
You could make a pair of white linen pants with that.
You could make a white buttoned shirt with that and a set of ivory buttons.
You could make a pair of embroidered white linen pants with that and a length of blue thread.
You could make an embroidered, white buttoned shirt with that, a set of white buttons, and a length of blue thread.
Or even just...
>craft
You could make a white linen shirt with a length of white linen.
You could make a pair of white linen pants with a length of white linen.
You could make a white buttoned shirt with a length of white linen and a set of ivory buttons.
You could make a pair of embroidered white linen pants with a length of white linen and a length of blue thread.
You could make an embroidered, white buttoned shirt with a length of white linen, a set of white buttons, and a length of blue thread.
(Maybe with an output limit to force people to specify some ingredients when many are available.)
2b) Extend that functionality to include items in a shop inventory.
EDIT: 1b) Allow analyze to target things in shop inventory as well.
I'm certainly not that familiar with the actual nitty gritty of the arm code. These suggestions would help crafting be less troublesome and I think more in line with I think what someone could figure out in reality if they were trying to make something, but it still doesn't address the base materials that you don't have that you should be able to figure out. For instance:
A button shirt with ivory buttons. Where do the ivory buttons come from? In arm there isn't elephant horn, ivory can be lots of different things, most likely horn, but the craft is going to be specific, it means a very specific type of horn, even though realistically it could probably be substituted from any type of in game horn.
What I'm suggesting is a way to be able to figure out those ultra specific things that the character should in game have more options for figuring out, or more substitutions. I'm really not advocating for creating the substitutions, rather making it so the character can do a little less guessing.
I'm also not suggesting a catch all that makes crafting super easy, it should be a skill and it should still introduce ambiguity and it should be based on your familiarity with the craft.
In my example, you already have the ivory buttons. Or you go to a shop that has ivory buttons for sale.
It makes your recipe "inspiration" limited to items available in your region (that is, items you can buy). If you don't own any ivory buttons and they're not available in your region, then why should you have knowledge of how to make a shirt out of them?
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 20, 2015, 11:22:41 AM
In my example, you already have the ivory buttons. Or you go to a shop that has ivory buttons for sale.
It makes your recipe "inspiration" limited to items available in your region (that is, items you can buy). If you don't own any ivory buttons and they're not available in your region, then why should you have knowledge of how to make a shirt out of them?
Fair point and I do think any such system should be limited.
I love Moe's idea, and it's somewhat realistic. I also dislike the fact that you have to pick an object to analyze it. When you are somewhere and all the objects are arranged in a specific pattern, the crafter has to pick it up and analyze it. He could roleplay looking at it -- the same for objects that people wear.
You could always ask the person wearing that fancy bit of something if you could see it closer if you are close to them. Or buy the item from the shop to have a gander at it. Thing is, people may not want there to be 8393726 of their fancy bit of something being worn or sold in the game and say no. There shouldn't be an automatic thing that lets people lift it from them.
The shop thing I have less of a problem with because if you could choose with better discernment what you COULD actually analyze once it was bought, it would make buying from shops less frustrating instead of guessing wrong and being out sid.
I'll move this over to code discussion forum. Not a new idea, not a bad idea, just not an idea we've developed in code yet! :)
Quote from: Nyr on August 07, 2014, 02:40:22 PM
Not quite what you are looking for, but we have discussed a similar idea in the past.
An improvement would be: crafting with a potential craftable and then seeing that with other unmentioned materials, you could make a specific finished product. This has been bounced around staff-side.
I don't know if it would be possible, based on how similar the crafting code is to another wonky bit of coding, but what if (based on your analyze skill), recipes including the item you're analyzing will pop up. So you aren't just analyzing a finished craft, you're analyzing components as well.
So, you analyze that leather square (that you already have in your inventory), and based on a formula between your analyze skill and leatherworking, it comes up with <x> crafts below <y> leatherworking skill. That way you're not just getting a database return of SELECT * FROM crafting WHERE s_skill = 'leatherworking'
Quote from: Riev on March 20, 2015, 01:29:36 PM
I don't know if it would be possible, based on how similar the crafting code is to another wonky bit of coding, but what if (based on your analyze skill), recipes including the item you're analyzing will pop up. So you aren't just analyzing a finished craft, you're analyzing components as well.
So, you analyze that leather square (that you already have in your inventory), and based on a formula between your analyze skill and leatherworking, it comes up with <x> crafts below <y> leatherworking skill. That way you're not just getting a database return of SELECT * FROM crafting WHERE s_skill = 'leatherworking'
This topic comes up from time to time, but here's a non-code solution (way out there):
compile a list (perhaps generated from whatever database we have) and place it on a website that the crafter could have access to (maybe divided into skills, with some qualifications on important items). Leave it up to them and the search tool to sort out recipes rather than code it inside the game. I know that I have a flat text list like that of the recipes I've learned so far. I'd be curious what the objections to this would be - probably they'd be along the lines of 'a crafter should find that out IC'.
Quote from: nauta on March 20, 2015, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: Riev on March 20, 2015, 01:29:36 PM
I don't know if it would be possible, based on how similar the crafting code is to another wonky bit of coding, but what if (based on your analyze skill), recipes including the item you're analyzing will pop up. So you aren't just analyzing a finished craft, you're analyzing components as well.
So, you analyze that leather square (that you already have in your inventory), and based on a formula between your analyze skill and leatherworking, it comes up with <x> crafts below <y> leatherworking skill. That way you're not just getting a database return of SELECT * FROM crafting WHERE s_skill = 'leatherworking'
This topic comes up from time to time, but here's a non-code solution (way out there):
compile a list (perhaps generated from whatever database we have) and place it on a website that the crafter could have access to (maybe divided into skills, with some qualifications on important items). Leave it up to them and the search tool to sort out recipes rather than code it inside the game. I know that I have a flat text list like that of the recipes I've learned so far. I'd be curious what the objections to this would be - probably they'd be along the lines of 'a crafter should find that out IC'.
Or better yet, put such a list in a help file. Say under "common craftable items"
This would be much easier to do, be something players might be able to contribute to the workload of, and it would permit the keeping of items that are meant to be a little more secret in their craftsmanship a secret.
Would the shop thing be easy to add to our analyse skill. If I could target one thing, it would be that.
With the rest, I'm fairly 'find out IC' because I see it as part of the game and the personal journey of your PC. If you are not a hermit (or a c-elf) Find out through making friends, being part of a network, finding mentors, joining clans and learning secrets, or just plain being lucky with serendipity.
I can understand the frustration with not being able to figure out how to make a particular item, especially if its something like your leather square that should legitimately be able to be done with every hide in the game, but is really only possible with a couple. That specific instance annoyed me from time to time, because I'm thinking 'I've got a hide, it isn't scaly (which wouldn't be realistic for the desc of a leather square), why can't I get a block of leather from it?" And for me my MC submissions were always too precious to use to add the leather square to x y and z hides.
I'm not sure I'm really in favor of the original idea to have a leather square and get a list of items its used in the crafting of. Moe's idea doesn't sound bad, and I like it because its realistic to be able to figure out what an item is used for if you're in a shop that sells the items (you could roleplay talking to the shopkeeper about the item). But on a personal level, I'm happy having to interact to learn things.
And its ICly realistic. If you are on a new crafter, any background you give them should reflect the fact that you start with all novice crafting skills (unless you received a skill bump) and don't even start with all crafting skills unlocked. An age 50 crafter whose been across the Known learning to master their skills who starts with novice tanning is....strange. So going through a learning process reflects the character you built, and circumventing that just means you have to do less interacting. And in a guild that goes down a road of little interaction to begin with unless you become a merchanty/crafty type in A GMH, being forced to talk to folks about recipes is a good idea.
Quote from: nauta on March 20, 2015, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: Riev on March 20, 2015, 01:29:36 PM
I don't know if it would be possible, based on how similar the crafting code is to another wonky bit of coding, but what if (based on your analyze skill), recipes including the item you're analyzing will pop up. So you aren't just analyzing a finished craft, you're analyzing components as well.
So, you analyze that leather square (that you already have in your inventory), and based on a formula between your analyze skill and leatherworking, it comes up with <x> crafts below <y> leatherworking skill. That way you're not just getting a database return of SELECT * FROM crafting WHERE s_skill = 'leatherworking'
This topic comes up from time to time, but here's a non-code solution (way out there):
compile a list (perhaps generated from whatever database we have) and place it on a website that the crafter could have access to (maybe divided into skills, with some qualifications on important items). Leave it up to them and the search tool to sort out recipes rather than code it inside the game. I know that I have a flat text list like that of the recipes I've learned so far. I'd be curious what the objections to this would be - probably they'd be along the lines of 'a crafter should find that out IC'.
I actually have a database nearly ready to go, but the input mechanism is a bit wonky. So I could input "a piece of bone" and get top 3 s_skill readouts with recipes that contain that item, or of which that item is a prerequisite. Unfortunately, a literal database of all the crafting recipes PROBABLY isn't a good idea to have, use, or disseminate.
Quote from: Nyr on March 20, 2015, 11:45:17 AM
I'll move this over to code discussion forum. Not a new idea, not a bad idea, just not an idea we've developed in code yet! :)
Quote from: Nyr on August 07, 2014, 02:40:22 PM
Not quite what you are looking for, but we have discussed a similar idea in the past.
An improvement would be: crafting with a potential craftable and then seeing that with other unmentioned materials, you could make a specific finished product. This has been bounced around staff-side.
So like
craft item
You could craft a bamberdoosh with that.
With (x) other components, you could craft a whangerdoosh.
And you would be able to almost triangulate based on which items can also make a whangerdoosh?