Armageddon General Discussion Board

Background:  Character reports were intended to inform staff about things that players were doing with their characters when staff may not have been around to see it.  Over time, this has evolved into a system in the request tool, and expectations have arisen on both sides of the player/staff equation--regardless of how they came about.  Here's what I mean.

Expectations from players and staff:

• Report regularity is important.  Leaders must report every week, and if regular PCs want to, that's fine as well.  Plus, this is the only way staff that might not see your RP can see your RP.
• Too short of a report is bad, too long of a report is bad, but there's a Goldilocks zone in between.
• You have to report (and report regularly) to be noticed.
• If you don't file lengthy (or regular) reports, you won't get karma.
• If staff doesn't respond to every part of a report (regardless of how lengthy), this may provoke a negative reaction with the player.  This leads to some staff doing more with responses and other staff doing less, and players developing their own opinions of staff members based on how verbose their responses are.

These expectations have changed the reality of reporting and reports (in general) are taking up larger and larger amounts of player and staff time.

We would like to see that change.  Here are some suggestions that different staff members have come up with that should help the process out.

First, some updated guidelines on reporting:

Q:  Who should report?

A:  Leaders, specifically, on a weekly basis.  Everyone else may report, but weekly reports are not required, and in fact, less-frequent reports are encouraged (a once-per month update would be fine).  If something major happens that needs staff response or notification, feel free to report at that time.

Q:  What should be in a report?

A: The goal of reporting is to inform staff of things that they would either need to or want to know about regarding your character's activities, as well as any specific support you need from your clan staff.  In this case, provide the relevant basics and provide more details if requested.  If you are a leader, there are some basics we do need to know about that will help us out.  Recruitment, use of clan accounts, specific leadership-related things from the past week, and then any needs or questions for staff.  We have a suggested report template for you to use if you wish.  Keep in mind that reports (while useful, and in some cases, very much required) should not take the place of playing and role-playing.

Q:  What should not be in a report?

A: Anything that could instead be placed as a biography entry.  Before, we have allowed this to be in reports.  We would prefer that players spend more time actually playing than reporting, or (if you want to write about more personal, emotional, relational, or historical details) place that in a biography entry.  Instead of detailing some IC feelings in a lengthy manner in a report, you should instead create a biography entry and then reference the name of the entry in your report so that staff can go read it if need be.  This will also be provided in an example and template.

Q:  How will staff respond to reports?

A: We will no longer be providing in-depth responses where they are not called for.  It may well be that your report gets answered with "thank you for the report" and nothing else, particularly if there is nothing for staff to add to your report.  You are informing us about what you are doing and you have done so.  We, in turn, will be putting summaries of relevant info from your report on the staff board if needed.  If we respond in this way it does mean we have read your report. This is not a slight-- we have limited time and we would prefer to utilize that time to do things like animate, plan for plots, and support your plots in-game rather than play a "request tool mini-game".  If you have specific questions, those should definitely be answered.  If we see things we need to handle, we will definitely reach out to you on it.  We are not going to provide analytical critique of reports unless we see a need to do so.

More in the next post about templates.

So, with that said, what kind of templates do we suggest?  What does that mean?  We'd make it so that you could select either a Leader Report or a Non-Leader Report (name pending).  If you select either, you'll get the automated template for it.  We might (if Nathvaan thinks so) be able to make the template opt-out or opt-in (so that you can just turn it off if you have your own that is better). 

Well, right now, here are two proposed ones:

QuoteFor Leaders:

Recruitment, Discharge, and Management

• Hirings:
• Firings:
• Promotions/demotions:
• Questions/comments:

Clan Account

• Withdrawals:
• Deposits:
• Questions/comments:

Interaction and Report

• Who, What, When, Where, Why and How:  Provide a summary of what happened over the past week.  If any particular description seems as though it could be (or might become) verbose, it may be better to put it in as a biography entry and reference it instead.
• Plots and Plans:  Briefly describe what you plan to do next week, or in general.
• Questions, comments and/or staff needs:   Ask any questions you might have, comment about previous reports and let the staff know what you currently need.

I know there are three sections for questions/comments.  That might be too much, or maybe it works for some people.  I was thinking in this case that you might have questions related to HR stuff and could put them in that spot, or questions about the bank account and want to put them in that spot...we could probably cut that out and just use a separate section for questions.

QuoteFor non-leaders:

Interaction and Report

• Who, What, When, Where, Why and How:  Provide a summary of what happened over the past <period of time, probably a month would be standard?>.  If any particular description seems as though it could be (or might become) verbose, it may be better to put it in as a biography entry and reference it instead.
• Plots and Plans:  Briefly describe what you plan to do next <period of time> or in general.
• Questions, comments and/or staff needs:   Ask any questions you might have, comment about previous reports and let the staff know what you currently need.

What kind of template would you suggest?  What sort of report ideas do you have?

Additionally, here are some biography template ideas and bio suggestions from Nergal:

- Pick a perspective for all bios of that character (first or third person) for consistency

Bio entry type: Historical
- Discuss what has happened to the PC since the last bio was written
- Discuss thoughts and feelings of the PC regarding these events
- Discuss future goals of the PC

Bio entry type: Relationship piece
- Pick a character important to yours
- Write about the relationship between your PC and that character
- Write about recent events that have shaped that relationship
- Update the relationship in future bios, if necessary

Someone told me my report format was nice to read, basically the same thing already posted, but here is the revised version to fit this new model of reporting.

Quote

Hello, staff.

This is a character report for Fancypants, the new aide to junior noble of Snobby House.  

~~~~~


[IC]
1. Relevant Stuff That Is Happening
a) Political Stuff
b) Interpersonal Stuff
c) Other Stuff


[OOC]

2. Questions/Staff Needs
3. Goals/Plans(A general overview of plot direction for the PC)

These used to be separated into IC and OOC for ease of reading, but I suspect with the shift of information into bio entries that will be unnecessary to outline.

This is good. Except now people won't get to be thoroughly entertained by Taijan's awesome report responses. They were always worth the price of admission.

I think this is good shift as well. Reports had become something of a beast to write, shifting that to bios and just leaving the important stuff to submit through reports is more than fine. Especially now as the player population looks to be crawling upwards to what seems to be record highs at peak outside of an RPT or HRPT.  


As long as there is a solid way for staff to find out and understand why my character is doing what its doing, or behaving the way it is without having to ask me directly, it's all good.

The IC/OOC division is absolutely necessary, surely, Tetra? I know on my characters, there's stuff I tell staff that my character wouldn't tell anyone IC. When I have stuff in an IC section, it tends to be stuff that would be relayed to my character's IC superiors etc.

Not a fan of the idea of biographies. I remember talking to a person who introduced me to Armageddon years ago who seemed to produce them in vast quantities, and some people on the GDB claim to as well. I doubt I'd turn out more than one every couple months, and it would probably be a very dry summary, at most.

If an important meeting happens IG, I have thought of sending in a log of the conversation, and throughout the log write what my character is thinking or update staff on the details of the conversation that are not spoken but implied. Would something like this still be considered a character report?

What about creating a separate "Leader's Report", which would have a management updates section (recruit/discharge/deaths), clan account section, ooc reports to staff (what is needed, questions, comments), and ic reports to superiors (short, concise reports about what your leader has been doing, as if reporting to their superior in a business meeting). The leaders report would be expected to be filled about once a week (or as needed) by leader pcs and because it's short and with high priority things, players can expect a response within the next week.

Then there is the current Character Report, which is where you would explain to staff your character's motives, a summary of what has happened to your character the past three to four RL weeks, and current goals/plans/plots that DO NOT require staff input. If you had bio entries during this time, you could reference staff to those entries and explain in a little more detail. Other things could be included, but this report would be written as a way to update staff, and not to expect a detailed report back from staff anytime soon. [And since it's expected to be filled about once a month, players know to summarize what's important and applicable or else it would take forever to complete. If your character is an exception and Tons of things have happened, then likely you could do two of these a month, but that would be rare I imagine if this is used together with the High Priority report detailed above.]

[In summary: separate reports in terms of priority to staff. One High Priority Report per week for Leaders/Important characters, and a Low Priority Report about once a month for everyone.]

Also, perhaps add an option to include a biography as a kind of character report. In this new kind of request, you can write your character's bio entry, then after submitting it for staff to view, the player can add notes at the end which would provide further details to staff/self, or to be able to link it to a leader/character report.

[Pretty similar to how the bio feature is currently, just in a place more convient to access amd utilitize for players in the New Request section.]

Quote from: Semper on March 14, 2015, 03:18:15 PM
Also, perhaps add an option to include a biography as a kind of character report. In this new kind of request, you can write your character's bio entry, then after submitting it for staff to view, the player can add notes at the end which would provide further details to staff/self, or to be able to link it to a leader/character report.

What if you could literally reference a biography or something?
A drop box "Biography" and you could just pick one for reference, either actually linking the text or just giving the person a 'hey this is in conjunction with this biography' as a heads up type thing.

Though that might be a bit much.

I am in a clan that says on the forums that all involved (not just leaders) should be reporting. Is this outdated now, or should I still be doing so? Or, secret option 3, should I be using bio 1/week to post the information that is supposed to be in the report (per the forum) into it?

Quote from: Dresan on March 14, 2015, 01:41:51 PM
As long as there is a solid way for staff to find out and understand why my character is doing what its doing, or behaving the way it is without having to ask me directly, it's all good.

We still will be able to open up requests on player behalf.  We also can reply to an open report and ask questions.

Quote from: Delusion on March 14, 2015, 02:03:44 PM
The IC/OOC division is absolutely necessary, surely, Tetra? I know on my characters, there's stuff I tell staff that my character wouldn't tell anyone IC. When I have stuff in an IC section, it tends to be stuff that would be relayed to my character's IC superiors etc.

That's fine, just be sure to err on the side of summarizing the key IC things.  We don't want you to only report OOC stuff--we are trying to cut through to the meat of a report.  If it is going to be in-depth about your character's feelings on a matter, you might as well make it a biography entry.  Those can be done online.  I'm really only suggesting that myself as an alternative:  if you are going to write about it anyway, it is just a different place to put it.  You can review it later at your leisure, reorganize, add new ones, etc.

Quote
Not a fan of the idea of biographies. I remember talking to a person who introduced me to Armageddon years ago who seemed to produce them in vast quantities, and some people on the GDB claim to as well. I doubt I'd turn out more than one every couple months, and it would probably be a very dry summary, at most.

No need to do bios if you do not want to do them. Seeing as how it is a way to really connect with your PC, you might want to--and if you do, and do so in a way you like doing it (however often that might be), it can also help staff connect with your PC.  But no requirement or anything, no.

Quote from: Semper on March 14, 2015, 02:54:58 PM
What about creating a separate "Leader's Report", which would have a management updates section (recruit/discharge/deaths), clan account section, ooc reports to staff (what is needed, questions, comments), and ic reports to superiors (short, concise reports about what your leader has been doing, as if reporting to their superior in a business meeting). The leaders report would be expected to be filled about once a week (or as needed) by leader pcs and because it's short and with high priority things, players can expect a response within the next week.

Then there is the current Character Report, which is where you would explain to staff your character's motives, a summary of what has happened to your character the past three to four RL weeks, and current goals/plans/plots that DO NOT require staff input. If you had bio entries during this time, you could reference staff to those entries and explain in a little more detail. Other things could be included, but this report would be written as a way to update staff, and not to expect a detailed report back from staff anytime soon. [And since it's expected to be filled about once a month, players know to summarize what's important and applicable or else it would take forever to complete. If your character is an exception and Tons of things have happened, then likely you could do two of these a month, but that would be rare I imagine if this is used together with the High Priority report detailed above.]

[In summary: separate reports in terms of priority to staff. One High Priority Report per week for Leaders/Important characters, and a Low Priority Report about once a month for everyone.]

Yes, that is what was suggested.  Right?

Quote from: bardlyone on March 14, 2015, 03:27:54 PM
I am in a clan that says on the forums that all involved (not just leaders) should be reporting. Is this outdated now, or should I still be doing so? Or, secret option 3, should I be using bio 1/week to post the information that is supposed to be in the report (per the forum) into it?

Some of this depends on the staff you have, the one you are writing to.  

One thing I do is, if a PC has lived a month RL, or if something neat has happened to them warranting staff notification before that period, I will send off an initial character report as an "introduction to my PC", and I will ask if the staff for my clan wants detailed reports and when they want them.  They are usually quite forthcoming about that.  As a minion I will also report what I presume my leader has already reported, since I'm never quite sure if my leader has reported or not and I'm a total snitch.

Quote from: Semper on March 14, 2015, 03:18:15 PM
Also, perhaps add an option to include a biography as a kind of character report. In this new kind of request, you can write your character's bio entry, then after submitting it for staff to view, the player can add notes at the end which would provide further details to staff/self, or to be able to link it to a leader/character report.

[Pretty similar to how the bio feature is currently, just in a place more convient to access amd utilitize for players in the New Request section.]

Current steps to do a character report (even with the new proposed intermediate step of selecting leader vs non):

Go to armageddon.org
log in on the right
click "new request"
select "character report"
(maybe submenu for the different types, or something)

Current steps to do a biography entry:

Go to armageddon.org
log in on the right
click "biographies"
select the PC
add a biography entry

It would be nice if we could have links between bios and the request tool.  I'll defer to the coding team on that.

Quote from: bardlyone on March 14, 2015, 03:27:54 PM
I am in a clan that says on the forums that all involved (not just leaders) should be reporting. Is this outdated now, or should I still be doing so? Or, secret option 3, should I be using bio 1/week to post the information that is supposed to be in the report (per the forum) into it?

We haven't changed any documentation yet, but probably will be soon after the relevant request tool changes have been made.  You do not need to change things up at this point, this is just a place for discussion about the overall nature of character reports before any move forward is made.

Something that we have looked into is the necessity of weekly reports for everyone.  For me, personally...after seeing lots of reports in my day...I am not convinced a weekly report is necessary for anyone but leader-type PCs, or PCs in a special sort of role that needs more specific support from staff.

Quote from: Barzalene on March 14, 2015, 01:30:40 PM
This is good. Except now people won't get to be thoroughly entertained by Taijan's awesome report responses. They were always worth the price of admission.

+++

Quote from: Semper on March 14, 2015, 02:30:14 PM
If an important meeting happens IG, I have thought of sending in a log of the conversation, and throughout the log write what my character is thinking or update staff on the details of the conversation that are not spoken but implied. Would something like this still be considered a character report?

We could add a section of character reports for logs to be added (so they can be collapsed and not take up so much space in the report).  Generally we would request logs rather than have them sent unsolicited.

To use your example: if an important meeting happens, it may be easier for you to log it and send us the log.  It is not easy for us to read through a log.  The level of difficulty increases if you write things throughout the log that you want staff to read specifically (in addition to the context provided by the log, which you already want staff to read).  Instead of doing all of that, it would probably be better to send a character report detailing a summary of what happened in the meeting, and let staff know you have a log if they want to look it over.  Turn that log of thousands of words into a paragraph of summary and you've saved yourself and your staff quite a bit of time!

What is a leader? The top dog, or anyone in the clan with "leader" in their Score.
"Use of bank accounts". What do you require for this?  When several leaders are feeding into it and a lot of floats. Is this like....an accounting?
Sorry, I feel like I' ve been walking around with my eyes shut. :-*


I imagine reports from lonesome indies are thumb nails, in case their imm looks down and thinks,
"Who's this dude?"
Yes?

I'd like to think this change will encourage me to put my energy into my nonexistent bios that I wish existed past the first month of my PCs' lives.

Oh, and on staff comments. A few snide comments slipped in are a good reminder in how you, as a loyal, totally indoctrinated clan member, should be viewing the situation.  ;D

I have never once written an extra bio.  Bad me.

I imagine the biggest goal here is cut down on the amount of paperwork that admins have to do, especially for non-critical characters.

On leaders I tend to err towards the side of character reports that are too thorough, whereas on non-leaders I tend not to send them in at all.  Lately I'm trying a format where I separate things I'm hoping for a staff response on away from things that I'm just summarizing.

Maybe as a suggestion for the template, instead of using the term "leader", use a label that's broader in scope? Then you don't have to run the risk of people being confused what entails being a "leader" character is. Maybe the template could look something like:

Quote
Weekly Report:

Management (Optional)
Hirings/Promotions:
Deaths/Discharges/Demotions:
Questions/comments:

Clan Account (Optional)
Withdrawals:
Deposits:
Current Balance:
Questions/comments:

For Staff:
Plots/Plans for the Week: (such and such is going on, this is the plan...)
Requests to Staff: (these could include crafting orders, specific animations, answers to a plot question, and generally anything that requires staff input or action in order to get things rolling)

For Superior:
IG/OOC Reports: (what happened the prior week, plots that succeeded/failed, things you would and would not tell your superior)

Quote
Monthly Report:

Summary of Past Month: (can refer to new biography entries since last report)
Plots/Plans for the Current Month:
General Questions, Comments, Concerns:

I'm... going to keep writing my reports as I always have, because it's simple, concise, and basically already follows the format! More or less.

If you tell people what to do, you're a leader.

Quote from: MeTekillot on March 15, 2015, 05:06:27 AM
If you tell people what to do, [and they actually do it instead of laughing in your face,] you're a leader.

Quote from: Semper on March 14, 2015, 06:50:07 PM
Maybe as a suggestion for the template, instead of using the term "leader", use a label that's broader in scope? Then you don't have to run the risk of people being confused what entails being a "leader" character is.

Yep, like I said, we'd make it so that you could select either a Leader Report or a Non-Leader Report (name pending).  It's just a mockup of what it would look like.

Quote from: solera on March 14, 2015, 05:18:08 PM
What is a leader? The top dog, or anyone in the clan with "leader" in their Score.

Sponsored leaders of clans (nobles, templars, military leaders, etc) or non-sponsored leaders of clans (tribal leaders, GMH agents, the guy that made Byn Sergeant because everyone else fell off of the Shield Wall) would fall into that category, as well as people that lead smaller unclanned groups.

Quote"Use of bank accounts". What do you require for this?  When several leaders are feeding into it and a lot of floats. Is this like....an accounting?

This is requesting information on how the leader actually used the bank account, if at all.  We aren't asking for the leader to account for everyone else's use of the account, just their own.

QuoteI imagine reports from lonesome indies are thumb nails, in case their imm looks down and thinks,
"Who's this dude?"
Yes?

We do want to keep tabs on what you are doing if you are a lonesome indie.  With that said, if you are a lonesome indie and not engaged in a leadership capacity where other folks are relying heavily on what you are doing as a leader, we don't necessarily need or want weekly reports from you.  A monthly one is probably going to be just fine.

Is it better to submit separate character reports per upcoming plot or put it all in one weekly report?

Just to clarify, will non-sponsored leaders be required to send weekly reports? I understand that while currently encouraged, it's not technically mandatory.

"Look I'm not a leader, these fucking idiots just keep following me and doing what I tell them to do."

"You still need to send in weekly reports. You're a LEADER now."

"But..."

"No buts!"

This is probably why non-sponsored/clan leaders aren't required to do that.

Quote from: aeglaeca on March 15, 2015, 10:35:47 AM
Is it better to submit separate character reports per upcoming plot or put it all in one weekly report?

Definitely the latter.

Quote from: HavokBlue on March 15, 2015, 10:37:15 AM
Just to clarify, will non-sponsored leaders be required to send weekly reports? I understand that while currently encouraged, it's not technically mandatory.

What do you mean by non-sponsored leaders?

Quotenon-sponsored leaders of clans (tribal leaders, GMH agents, the guy that made Byn Sergeant because everyone else fell off of the Shield Wall) would fall into that category

I think you guys have stated in the past that it's not technically mandatory for leaders who achieved their position in-game rather than through sponsored role call to provide weekly reports.

I'm just curious if they will now be considered mandatory in the same sense that a role-call sponsored leader is expected to provide weekly reports.

If you rise to the ranks of leadership in some clan IC, you are still supposed to send in weekly reports.  That has pretty much always been the case.  

We do want reports to be less tedious for everyone (hence this thread and the suggestions provided).  A weekly report for a leader needn't be super verbose and expansive--it just needs to summarize what's going in (in case their staff was not watching or did not see it) and what the player and clan needs from their clan staff.

I'll provide some examples that I've used in the past and how I would revise them now in the next post I make.

Previous example of a non-leader PC I had, reporting to staff.  The report:  about 1000 words.

At the top, I put a summary.

QuoteAmos manifests due to a perfect storm of bad experiences at the RPT.
Amos' short and long-term plans.
Amos' patriotism takes a swan dive and may not fully recover.

Each one of these were expanded upon below in great, great detail.  I'm not a leader, and I don't actually need anything from my staff, but I'm going into great detail about what happened.  As far as I am concerned, I'm filing the report because I'm supposed to--I'm a player and a staffer and I should be communicating regularly with my staff and stuff.

What I'd change:

If I'm going to want to write about the IC stuff that happened anyway, I may as well write a biography entry for those things.  If I'm not going to write about those things now, I can make a note of them and expand on them later if staff asks...or maybe I can do bios one day when I don't feel like playing but do feel like rounding out my character's psyche by filling up some bio notes.  Then I can mention them later to let staff know (in a month, for my next report--or in a couple of weeks, if something major ends up happening that they should know about).

How I'd rewrite it now:

QuoteAmos manifests due to a perfect storm of bad experiences at the RPT.
-- here's generally what happened to cause it, limited to a few sentences.
-- I wrote up a biography entry related to it if you want to read it, it is here <title>

Amos' short and long-term plans.
-- short term plans, summarized in a few sentences.
-- long term plans, summarized in a few sentences.
-- I wrote up a bio explaining why these are his plans, you can read that if you want to here <title>

Amos' patriotism.
-- what he's thinking and why this matters to him, summarized into a few sentences.
-- I wrote up a bio with more detail here if you want to read that.  <title>

The whole thing is probably now going to be (at least) half the size of the previous report.  (A 2/3 reduction wouldn't be unrealistic in this case, really.)  It is now easier to read, the same info is communicated (though not to the same level of detail), and ultimately, I still don't need anything, staff can still respond "Thanks for the report, all looks well, you're doing fine, let us know if you need anything."

I think moving most things to BIOs is a great idea.  

Here's why: I started writing character reports for the very simple reason that I wanted staff to know what I (and others around me) were up to, with the hope that it would give storytellers fodder for storytelling.  I would've done this in the Biography, but what I inferred from the "communication" bit in the karma doc was that this involved character reports.  By the time I wrote up the character report, I was no longer interested in writing up a BIO, and besides, I thought staff wouldn't read the BIO anyway.

So, if staff shift to reading the BIO (and publicly say as much) when they are interested in the goings-on of a given PC, I would then write my BIOs as if they were character reports, reserving for character reports mere questions/requests that I had on an OOC level.

The leader one I'm referring to is from prior to the request tool being a thing, but here is the summary:

QuoteThis PC is dead for whatever reason.  This other templar is okay with Amos now.
This other PC and mine are on okay terms.
The clan contract is almost over and done with:  ready to push for an agreement of some sort between the House and that clan.
Amos has heard of a problem with this tribe--they need food, don't have enough hunters, and not enough training.  He wants to fix that in goodwill towards an alliance.
Amos wants to have this other PC killed.
Amos is ticked off at <X> and wants to do something about them.
Amos is still ticked off at <X> and wants to have them eradicated.
Amos is getting antsy about his House and the templarate.
Relations are pretty much the same across the board.  Amos hates pretty much everyone.

Each of the above were expanded on in their own subsequent paragraphs.  It probably took up as much space as that other report I mentioned, but in this one, I didn't make it clear what I needed from staff.  I'm not really sure I did need anything from staff, rereading it now, but it sure seems like I might have.  I should've had a section for questions. 

How I'd change it now:

Same summary as above.  Slimmed down explanations.  If I use the template, I don't have anything new for HR stuff or for banking stuff.  If there are IC things that are being reported that are relevant to my PC's superiors (like, you know...who I want to kill, how close I am to doing that, etc) then that should definitely be mentioned.  Seeing as how my PC is apparently pissed off at everyone, maybe I should replace the summary sections with a general header "people Amos wants to kill," and then summarize each person or group by name, followed by why.  If I still want to write about what my PC is feeling I should probably put that in bios.  Ultimately, I haven't made it clear what I need from staff or whether I have things that need their attention, so I should highlight that by specifically asking them to do so.  If they need more info than I have provided, it's simple for them to reply, "hey, you wanted us to review this, but you don't have a bio about it and you don't have any real details on it.  Can you explain for us?"  Then I can either write a bio (if I was going to anyway) or refer to the bio (if it exists but they didn't see it) or provide a more detailed version of what they need to review (if I'm not planning to write a bio at this time or ever, as it isn't really bio-worthy).

That makes sense.

I think I have a problem with being overly-verbose in reports because I feel the need to share as many details about the what and why of an event as possible to avoid confusion.

Quote from: HavokBlue on March 15, 2015, 01:24:52 PM
That makes sense.

I think I have a problem with being overly-verbose in reports because I feel the need to share as many details about the what and why of an event as possible to avoid confusion.

Same deal for me, but at the same time, I know i can cut back on it some, reading over this topic has given me some ideas to better format a char report!

After I write a report, I go back through, line by line, and trim out unnecessary words, sentences, and sometimes entire paragraphs. There are always things that can go, even if it's just meaningless modifiers like "actually" and "really." Usually it's more than that, like details that, upon reflection, aren't adding anything truly important.

Quite a while ago, I realized that being concise and organized in character reports meant that fewer things would be overlooked or skimmed past. Just stick to what's genuinely important, and that's what will get noticed.

I've always busted up my reports into a few categories

Current goals, completed goals, clan business, pc relations, ooc stuff.

Bullet points and bolding/underline where appropriate. Always had good feedback on my reports but they're usually a pretty quick read that just get the points across. If staff want further clarification on something, they've always just asked me in replies. Don't flood them with useless information and they'll be more on top of what your pc is up to I've noticed.

I think templates is a good idea.  I would prefer to keep using my own template, but I could probably adjust if templates were mandatory.

I only have one concern.  I couldn't get behind turning every single character reflection on an IC event into a biography.  I prefer to do my biographies in my character's voice.  It takes me ten minutes to write a three to four sentence summary of some IC event that happened.  It takes me usually an hour or two to write a good biography entry, sometimes after multiple weeks of planning.

I guess I would like to see examples about where the line would be drawn between (this is what should be in a biography) and (this is fine to have in a character report).

I also have a problem with too much verbosity in my reports, though it's improved. I'm sure I am still one of the longer report-writers and I worry about that sometimes. But, my advice to avoid too-lengthy reports is to write everything once. Then read it. Do you need all that crazy detail? No? Then skim it out.

I also really like referencing full biographies in reports, as has been suggested here, as it allows for staff to read as much or as little as they want. The problem with that is that I don't always have the energy to keep up-to-date on bios and they're not always something I can do with each character. If I wrote all the bios I wanted it would be a huuuuuge chunk of time. Still, if you have the time, I recommend it.

As to report formatting and templates, the idea makes me a little wary. I have a rough template that I use, but what I actually need to report depends on who the PC is.

This is a character report format I tend to favor:

QuoteCharacter Name, Report ##

Introduction

Anything I need to comment on about the report itself here. Usually a line or two.


Responses/Questions

Sometimes broken into two sections if needed. Always limit questions if possible. If it's not an immediate concern and can wait until a next report, if spreading them out makes staff work load easier, do that.

1. Sath's Research on Firekanks. What does Sath know about firekanks? With the sudden apperance of firekanks burning down the barracks again, Lord Longliver would approach them to see if there are any historic instances of it. (See section for details).

2. Barracks Rebuilding Party. Is it okay with the House to host a party that may include multiple other organizations within the estate? Lord Longliver hopes to do this to speedily rebuild the barracks. (See section for details).


Finances

A record of spending if needed. Not to be concerned with any normal mundane spending, but larger things such as pulling any coin out of the clan account, or donating any coin to the clan account. Could possibly touch on larger purchases, though generally I keep that to a main section.


Plot and General Follow-Up

Ongoing plot? Stick it here.

Barrack's Rebuilding -- As you know, firekanks invaded the estate and burned down the barracks. Lord Longliver is furious! After some consideration, he's decided it might be best to utilize the efforts of others to assist in manual labor. If you give commoners food, they're more then willing to do hard labor, right? Lady Partytosser thinks so, and he's working closely with her on this. Oash made snide comments about a lack of fireproofing, so Longliver is considering burning something of theirs down. He also wants to research into a fire-proof coating for the barracks. Sure, it might make more sense to use something nonflammable like stone, but that doesn't fit with his image. He'll try contacting Lord Cleanshaven Rennik (who is not nearly as awesome as his templar relative, but may have the House connections to help). I'll let you know how that goes. Feel free to ask questions as needed.

Spy Information Network -- Amos has successfully infiltrated House Salarr, and from there is developing northern contacts. Right now he has limited contact with Longliver, in order to build the persona. On a whole, it seems the northies aren't nearly wary enough. But what do you expect from a city that lets the enemy become a NOBLE? After Amos gets enough information about northern status, Longliver can send in the big guns. Infiltrating Uaptal may have been a failure, but it's been a few years and nobody will remember Shadowstalker's face anymore. Longliver looks forward to this gleefully.

Plots with no progress: Stealing Lady Strutalot's dress (gypsies contact died), Militia-House shared lessons (templar is AWOL), Tek Serak Improvements (waiting on word back from Tor)


Other

This generally covers new things or things as needed. If I don't have a lot, sometimes I'll fill it out by touching on impressions of people my character knows, or their hopes for advancement and plans. If I've already done that, it doesn't always have to be here, especially if they have a lot of other pots cooking.

Firekanks -- With the firekank assault, Longliver has concerns that they may have entered the estate through the sewers. He's hired the byn to investigate, putting aside his misgivings about Sergeant Boozealot. He also had a hunter, Malik, mention that he's heard of firekanks before and reference an old battle with them. If that's true, Sath may have more information he can use. He's not sure what the cost will be, but keeping the estate intact is important. He plans to spin it as researching a threat to the city, to gain himself more prestige.

Lady Strutalot's New Aide -- Strutalot got a new aide that Longliver detests. They ignored him and didn't bow in the tavern, making up an excuse about how it was crowded, even after looking directly at him. He thinks this an intentional slight, given their history, and in his frothing anger is considering hiring a Guild assassin. Too bad that there's not a lot to be found. He may have to endure angry twitching eyes on this one.

If I'm not playing someone heavily involved in events, my reports may happen a lot less often. I typically save them up until I actually have anything of substance to say. I'm not sure how a "leader" versus "non-leader" template would vary. It really depends on the PC for what's even relevant to report.

Are you thinking of adding these sections as part of the template for the request tool, like for special applications where it shows sdesc, mdesc etc? That's if you haven't already; I haven't done a character report in forever. I feel if you add structure prematurely to the report, at least as a guide, it'll help.

I thought I'd toss a redacted copy of one of my usual templates out there from a leadership character I had a couple years ago.  It's pretty much still the template I use today:

------
OOC Summary -
1) Introduction
2) Summary
3) New Biography
4) Questions

IC Summary -
5) Research
6) Scroll to (NPC)
7) X Assignment, Continued
... (other plot relevant stuff, continues to item #10)

OOC Section -
1) Introduction
(Brief update on my state of mind playing the character.)

2) Week in Summary
12-06-12   Conversed with X.  Questioned X, caught up with X.  Briefed X on plans for magickal threats.
12-07-12   Chatted with X, pissed her off.  Dealt with X's desk.  Was called to a breed having killed recruit X.
12-08-12   Discussed magickal threats with X.  Spent some social time with X.
12-09-12  Caught up with X.  Discussed hiring Byn for X.
12-10-12   Chastened X for wearing magicks in the city.  Caught up by X on gemmed.  Drank with X.

No hires, no fires, no clan bank account use.

500 (self-suggested) fine from X for death of X
100 fine on X for wearing magick in the city

3) New Biography
Field Journal, X Account -- this is just a copy of something that X wrote in his field journal

4) Questions
I've noticed there are X at X.  Would I know what those are?  Or know better than to experiment with them?

IC Section -
5) Research
X has spent time in the Library, attempting to research X.

6) Scroll to (NPC)
A copy of a scroll delivered to (NPC) by X:
(A copy of the scroll contents went here.)

7) X Assignment, Continued
(About 5 sentences on plot-relevant stuff.)

(It continues like this through 3 more plot-relevant updates.)

Biographies are awesome.  As a player I under-used them and now that I'm on staff and I've seen how certain players use biographies it kind of floors me how complete a picture it paints for a PC.  They don't have to be epic novels really even lengthy at all, but they are a chronological stuff that is filtered down to the guts of what makes a character tick.  Pretty cool if done well.  There is at least one person posting in this thread that is a case study in how to write awesome bios. (and it's not Nyr :P)

Just submitted a report using one of the basic 'Leader Templates'.

I spent perhaps 20-30 minutes less on the report -- I think that's worth it overall. I didn't have as much fun writing it, maybe because it seemed a little more like office work than something I could make entertaining for myself (and for the Staff member reading it).

I think less time spent on reports is a good thing for Staff, and it encourages me to write more Biographies.

can a pk report just be the five lines before and after a death blow? possibly with an appended "suck it" and a cc to the clans of people you pk'd?

Quote from: MeTekillot on March 19, 2015, 03:48:40 AM
can a pk report just be the five lines before and after a death blow? possibly with an appended "suck it" and a cc to the clans of people you pk'd?

I don't think a PK report needs to be anything more than:

I killed person, here's how.

If it's maybe questionable circumstances, here's why.

Cheers!

Quote from: Down Under on March 19, 2015, 03:47:24 AM
Just submitted a report using one of the basic 'Leader Templates'.

I spent perhaps 20-30 minutes less on the report -- I think that's worth it overall. I didn't have as much fun writing it, maybe because it seemed a little more like office work than something I could make entertaining for myself (and for the Staff member reading it).

That's a good point overall:  it is a bit like office work if you strip out or summarize most of the IC stuff (leaving only relevant and concise IC things) and get down to the basics that staff needs to know.  Reports are meant to inform staff of what your character is doing and to some degree what the player is doing.  They need to get that information across in a clear, summarized, concise manner.

If you were enjoying writing IC stuff as a way to get into your character before?

(http://i.imgur.com/eYB841Q.jpg)

We'll still enjoy reading them.  There have been times when I've staffed players that bio extensively on a weekly basis.  It's a good window into the IC part of the character because everything in bios IS the IC part of the character--their thoughts, their emotions, their history, who they like, who they hate, etc.  These are slices of character life that we actually don't really see unless we're watching the PC 24/7 (which we are not).  Putting them in reports...that is a bit of a mixed bag.  I have seen reports where it works--or at least, it was done and separated properly, but still made for a lot of reading and processing to get to the essential details.  I've also seen some reports where the IC parts bleed into OOC reporting and we're not sure if the PC is pissed off about something or the player is pissed off about it.

Quote from: Down Under on March 19, 2015, 03:52:27 AM

Quote from: MeTekillot on March 19, 2015, 03:48:40 AM
can a pk report just be the five lines before and after a death blow? possibly with an appended "suck it" and a cc to the clans of people you pk'd?

I don't think a PK report needs to be anything more than:

I killed person, here's how.

If it's maybe questionable circumstances, here's why.

Cheers!

Just answer the basics and you're good to go for the most part.

I killed (what?) Amos, the tall, muscular man in our unit (who?) for repeated insubordination and theft--mentioned in previous reports (why?).  This happened last night (when?) while we were out on a training mission (where?).  I stabbed him in the face with my face-stabbing knife (how?), and the rest of the unit seemed pretty much okay with it since they subdued him so I could do it.  Let me know if you have any questions!

I often feel like a huge wang when I send in a report that has nothing of "interest" in it.

If nothing is going on with my character, even if I am playing a leader, I feel like I am wasting someone's time by sending them a report that basically says, "Hey you guys, business as usual.".

I usually try to wait until "something is going on", before I throw another request in the workflow.

I'm not sure how staff feels about that when stacking it up against the mindset of, "try to throw one out once a week".

Quote from: Nyr on March 19, 2015, 08:31:23 AM

That's a good point overall:  it is a bit like office work if you strip out or summarize most of the IC stuff (leaving only relevant and concise IC things) and get down to the basics that staff needs to know.  Reports are meant to inform staff of what your character is doing and to some degree what the player is doing.  They need to get that information across in a clear, summarized, concise manner.

It would be better if they were more like fun and less like office work, so I propose we tweak the template to a format like mad libs. It might take a few tries to  get the points across, but it should go fast and hilarity could ensue!

Quote from: Desertman on March 19, 2015, 10:15:39 AM
I often feel like a huge wang when I send in a report that has nothing of "interest" in it.

If nothing is going on with my character, even if I am playing a leader, I feel like I am wasting someone's time by sending them a report that basically says, "Hey you guys, business as usual.".

I usually try to wait until "something is going on", before I throw another request in the workflow.

I'm not sure how staff feels about that when stacking it up against the mindset of, "try to throw one out once a week".

How would your staff know that everything with your leader PC is "business as usual" or "nothing has changed" unless you tell them that?  Reporting even that basic amount lets staff know several things:  you are still playing, you are still reporting, and nothing has changed as far as you know.  It also provides a handy avenue for staff to respond and say "hey, we are setting up an RPT for your clan, what dates work?" or "this PC is trying to reach you, here are their playtimes" or "we've been meaning to talk to you about Kevin" or "the last 10 reports of yours have said the same thing that nothing has changed, why are you playing a leader if you're not doing anything?"

If you don't even do that, you are likely wasting your staff's time.

Quote from: Barzalene on March 19, 2015, 10:21:38 AM

Quote from: Nyr on March 19, 2015, 08:31:23 AM

That's a good point overall:  it is a bit like office work if you strip out or summarize most of the IC stuff (leaving only relevant and concise IC things) and get down to the basics that staff needs to know.  Reports are meant to inform staff of what your character is doing and to some degree what the player is doing.  They need to get that information across in a clear, summarized, concise manner.

It would be better if they were more like fun and less like office work, so I propose we tweak the template to a format like mad libs. It might take a few tries to  get the points across, but it should go fast and hilarity could ensue!

It would be better if players and staff spent less time working on character reports.  If you have a suggestion here for a change that would accomplish that end, feel free to provide a template.

Quote from: Nyr on March 19, 2015, 08:40:33 AM
I stabbed him in the face with my face-stabbing knife

Now I want a face-stabbing knife!

Are leaders supposed to be submitting separate PK reports? Whenever I've played a leader I've just included it in my weekly leader report as a separate section.

Quote from: Nyr on March 19, 2015, 11:01:48 AM
It would be better if players and staff spent less time working on character reports.  If you have a suggestion here for a change that would accomplish that end, feel free to provide a template.

Question before I dive in - How do you envision information being captured in a Bio Entry being less of a drag on staff than the same information being captured in a Player Report?  That would help in crafting a template that meets the needs of staff while also presenting the opportunity for players to continue to update staff in a way that they are comfortable with.

Quote from: whitt on March 19, 2015, 12:11:14 PMQuestion before I dive in - How do you envision information being captured in a Bio Entry being less of a drag on staff than the same information being captured in a Player Report?

For starters, bio's don't warrant a response.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 19, 2015, 12:18:36 PM

Quote from: whitt on March 19, 2015, 12:11:14 PMQuestion before I dive in - How do you envision information being captured in a Bio Entry being less of a drag on staff than the same information being captured in a Player Report?

For starters, bio's don't warrant a response.

Understood, but a report that basically amounts to:

Report Header
  Topic 1 - pointer to bio entry A
  Topic 2 - pointer to bio entry B
  Topic 3 - pointer to bio entry C

Seems very much the same as plunking all that information into the report, no?

The issue appears to be that there is a lot of extraneous information in character reports and that the imms would prefer you err on the side of too little info rather than too much. Putting thoughts and feelings into your bio as opposed to your character report seems to be the general consensus.

Reading and writing bios is still optional.

I think the idea is unless you're a leader or have something actually important to say, don't send in a report.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 19, 2015, 12:34:00 PM
I think the idea is unless you're a leader or have something actually important to say, don't send in a report.

So put another way?:

If you are informing staff of something, but don't necessarily need feedback  = Bio
(eg What your character is doing, why, and with whom)

If you are asking staff for something that does require feedback = Report
(eg OOC assistance with a pRPT or plot goings on that (v)NPCs might react to)

If you've Bio'd a significant # of things / time has passed = Report
(bi-weekly/monthly non-required reporter heads up)

Using the above, most of my character reports would be bio entries in, basically, the same format with a simple character report out to let the clan staff know I've updated and see if clarification was required.

There are a few downsides to taking this path:
1) The "warm fuzzy" that comes from having a staff member respond meaningfully to your "bio-entry in character report format" may go away -  diminishing the desire for players to report at all, which diminishes the amount of information available to staff and may reduce the incentive for some styles of players to engage. 
2) I don't believe this reduces the workload on the staff, other than (assuming staff will read the bio entries at some point) allowing staff to clear their character reports outstanding queue faster because they can close the report quicker.
3) It may revise how staff can determine if a newer player will be a good and responsible leadership reporter.   Currently filing consistent, meaningful, character reports can be a marker for consideration in future roles and allows staff opportunity to engage with the player to provide feedback beyond the account notes request.

Quote from: whitt on March 19, 2015, 12:29:54 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 19, 2015, 12:18:36 PM

Quote from: whitt on March 19, 2015, 12:11:14 PMQuestion before I dive in - How do you envision information being captured in a Bio Entry being less of a drag on staff than the same information being captured in a Player Report?

For starters, bio's don't warrant a response.

Exactly correct.

Quote
Understood, but a report that basically amounts to:

Report Header
  Topic 1 - pointer to bio entry A
  Topic 2 - pointer to bio entry B
  Topic 3 - pointer to bio entry C

Seems very much the same as plunking all that information into the report, no?

We are requesting more things than just "put all of your IC crap into a bio."  Here is what was suggested:

QuoteQ:  What should be in a report?

A: The goal of reporting is to inform staff of things that they would either need to or want to know about regarding your character's activities, as well as any specific support you need from your clan staff.  In this case, provide the relevant basics and provide more details if requested.  If you are a leader, there are some basics we do need to know about that will help us out.  Recruitment, use of clan accounts, specific leadership-related things from the past week, and then any needs or questions for staff.  We have a suggested report template for you to use if you wish.  Keep in mind that reports (while useful, and in some cases, very much required) should not take the place of playing and role-playing.

Q:  What should not be in a report?

A: Anything that could instead be placed as a biography entry.  Before, we have allowed this to be in reports.  We would prefer that players spend more time actually playing than reporting, or (if you want to write about more personal, emotional, relational, or historical details) place that in a biography entry.  Instead of detailing some IC feelings in a lengthy manner in a report, you should instead create a biography entry and then reference the name of the entry in your report so that staff can go read it if need be.  This will also be provided in an example and template.

In the template, it mentions this for both leaders and for non-leaders:

Quote
Interaction and Report

• Who, What, When, Where, Why and How:  Provide a summary of what happened over the past <period of time>.  If any particular description seems as though it could be (or might become) verbose, it may be better to put it in as a biography entry and reference it instead.
• Plots and Plans:  Briefly describe what you plan to do next <period of time> or in general.
• Questions, comments and/or staff needs:   Ask any questions you might have, comment about previous reports and let the staff know what you currently need.

Key points:  provide a summary.  If you feel like you're getting verbose, maybe best to put it as a bio entry instead.  You still should summarize.

If you have Topic 1 - pointer to bio entry A, you've essentially done nothing to tell staff anything and are requiring the same amount of work for staff to chase down the information you have sequestered in a biography entry.

You would instead do this:

QuoteTopic 1 -- short, few sentences (at most) of summary for topic 1.  Pointer to bio entry A if you have more on it.

Quote from: whitt on March 19, 2015, 01:48:04 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 19, 2015, 12:34:00 PM
I think the idea is unless you're a leader or have something actually important to say, don't send in a report.

So put another way?:

If you are informing staff of something, but don't necessarily need feedback  = Bio
(eg What your character is doing, why, and with whom)

Not quite.  Inform them via a summary.  If you have enough you want to write about, summarize it anyway and put the verbose stuff in an IC bio.  

QuoteUsing the above, most of my character reports would be bio entries in, basically, the same format with a simple character report out to let the clan staff know I've updated and see if clarification was required.

Please don't do this.  It should be possible to summarize a report without just linking to biography entries and saying "here's what I did".

Quote
There are a few downsides to taking this path:
1) The "warm fuzzy" that comes from having a staff member respond meaningfully to your "bio-entry in character report format" may go away -  diminishing the desire for players to report at all, which diminishes the amount of information available to staff and may reduce the incentive for some styles of players to engage.

As alluded to in the original posts, we don't think that warm fuzzy is worth the amount of time it takes to provide it.

Quote2) I don't believe this reduces the workload on the staff, other than (assuming staff will read the bio entries at some point) allowing staff to clear their character reports outstanding queue faster because they can close the report quicker.

See previous responses.  I've also already seen some players use this format as requested and sure enough, I was able to process the information in the report much more quickly.  They still provided the basics that staff needed, but this time, it was better summarized, easier to read, and did not go into IC tangents.

Having to separate IC from OOC from IC Reporting to OOC speculation to IC Speculation is a bit of a nightmare for me in my character reports. Removing the IC speculation (Bio worthy), that only leaves the IC reporting, and that makes me happy, because it's less confusing. I would often write a report, and then go back and separate sections based on being my speculation as a Player, my speculation as a Character, or my reporting as a Character, or my OOC reporting as a player. It got convoluted.

If I am playing a character than writes, I sometimes like to 'act out' the letter that I am sending to my superiors, because I otherwise don't get to interact with them (See: Not too many boss animations unless it warrants them). I typically don't plop the whole letter in a mass of text -- I do excerpts that are applicable to the section being reported, typically 1-3 sentences.

I think that's probably the best 'middle ground', so it allows a bit of entertainment/creativity, while the meat of the IC Speculation is reserved for Bios, and it feels less like a TPS report.

More seriously (and I am disappointed you didn't laugh at my joke), whatever you guys need to do to make things work within reason should be fine. That said  I would remind and counsel you that most people have a real need to feel heard and understood. I know you know that. My point is whatever method you go to has to meet that need. I think that's the key to success.

It sounds as if a lot of anxiety come back to some acknowledgment of the bios. Can that be addressed?

I'm all for organization. But I do worry that over-formulaic responsibilities and expectations lead to this game feeling like work.

(http://i.qkme.me/3qwtk7.jpg)

Quote from: Delirium on March 19, 2015, 02:35:39 PM
I'm all for organization. But I do worry that over-formulaic responsibilities and expectations lead to this game feeling like work.

(http://i.qkme.me/3qwtk7.jpg)

In some leadership positions at some times it definitely -does- feel like work.

That said, I think there's still a ways to go before everything turns to feeling like work. I really do love getting staff responses on my reports and it really does help motivate me to keep moving forwards if only because I know other people are seeing my story and saying 'Yeah, cool!'

Hi,

I totally get the worry that the new report system might be impersonal, but here's a counter-thought: rather than spending the time to respond to you in the report, staff can spend that time animating the world and actually getting involved in that storyline, which should totally give you the fuzzles, amiwrong?  At least I suspect that is the goal.

Yeah.  Everyone may need to find some other sources of warmth and fuzziness outside of the request tool.  Staff have a game to run.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 19, 2015, 02:57:33 PM
Yeah.  Everyone may need to find some other sources of warmth and fuzziness outside of the request tool.  Staff have a game to run.

Well, that will make less work for staff, but do nothing to keep communication flowing. I think if this is now part of the game it has to be at the least inoffensive. 

But again, I think the idea here is actually to reduce communication.  We've been over-sharing with the staff and apparently it's sapping their time (even if they enjoy it).

Very true. Maybe the system could put a little read symbol next to bios that had been accessed.

Quote from: nauta on March 19, 2015, 02:53:18 PM
I totally get the worry that the new report system might be impersonal, but here's a counter-thought: rather than spending the time to respond to you in the report, staff can spend that time animating the world and actually getting involved in that storyline, which should totally give you the fuzzles, amiwrong?  At least I suspect that is the goal.

Its a different thing - Seeing cool things in game and feeling like your contribution is part of that coolness because someone says "this is neat".  

With the restriction on discussion of IC events (which totally makes sense) among players the only feedback a player is likely to get about their character's performance is from staff.  The window for that feedback is either via character reports or account notes.  The other option is kudos from other players which, are awesome, but scarce.  Character Reports, potentially being a two way communication, can create a sense of being a part of the larger game for the player - especially if something in a report also spawns activity in game.

Because of the outside the game nature of Character Reports, that can happen at any time the PC has time to check e-mail, and at staff's convenience for responding to reports.  IG "awesome" requires both parties to be IG at the same time and focused on the same interaction.

I think the "goldilocks" spot of the Character Reports is keeping the player feeling heard and engaged (per Barzalene) without overburdening the staff in need to wade through novels of fluff to get to the key response points (per Moe) - the way that is communicated goes a long way to not missing on the first point.

Am I the only one that really only hopes I don't get some sort of negative feedback on my report?

I don't want warm and fuzzy feelings from them. I'm happy just to not get any criticism in general.

If I get a, "Thanks for the report, we appreciate the information.", and nothing else;

I usually call that a huge win for me.

(Which really makes very little sense as staff has been more warm and fuzzy in my responses than not.)

Quote from: Desertman on March 19, 2015, 03:23:49 PM
Am I the only one that really only hopes I don't get some sort of negative feedback on my report?

I don't want warm and fuzzy feelings from them. I'm happy just to not get any criticism in general.

If I get a, "Thanks for the report, we appreciate the information.", and nothing else;

I usually call that a huge win for me.

(Which really makes very little sense as staff has been more warm and fuzzy in my responses than not.)

I see it the opposite way.  If staff take the time to give you constructive criticism, it's like they actually took the time out of their day because they care enough to tell you.

I think filling out the character report in the format Nyr suggested will be faster, and feel less like some original creation that needs to be hugged and cherished by staff in order for the leader to feel valued and heard.  In fact, I just used the format today and found it took me about 10 minutes to complete, which is certainly less than my previous character reports that were more unstructured.

If staff take the saved time from not reading character reports, and turn it into more NPC animations for clans, I think everyone involved will be much happier.  After all, I'd much rather my NPC superior get animated and talk to my character ICly about their performance than get an OOC kudos for my character reports.

Quote from: wizturbo on March 19, 2015, 05:21:42 PM
If staff take the saved time from not reading character reports, and turn it into more NPC animations for clans, I think everyone involved will be much happier.  After all, I'd much rather my NPC superior get animated and talk to my character ICly about their performance than get an OOC kudos for my character reports.

This right here is not the same thing though. Staff could say 'That's a cool idea, we'll animate the world to help bring it to life' in a character report - then at the same time send down Muk Utep himself to call you an idiot for even contemplating doing that IC.

Now that character reports are streamlined and bios have hopped up a few steps in priority, how does the staff want to see bios written? First person? Third person? An OOC explanation of a player's character's life? Or an IC explanation as told to a page/scribe/someone who retells the story?

I feel that not putting explanations for things into my reports might result in my reports being misunderstood or misinterpreted.  Things like:

Report: who/what: Kalilyeah is planning on killing her boyfriend Malik. Where/how: In her apartment with a stabby stick Why: Because he cheated on her.

But the why isn't all that simple. It's a long history of mistrust, with very specific examples that have built up over a period of four years. The recent cheating episode is just the last straw. Kalilyeah isn't a petty PKing twink whose player is just coming up with a justification to add another victim notch onto her stabby stick handle. But if I go all streamlined on this, that's how it'll look. Therefore, a bio entry would be - basically - necessary, where it wasn't before. Before, I would've written a whole paragraph just about the build-up to this right in the character report. Now I feel like I'll need to do TWO reports - one an actual character report, one a bio.

So how do you want the bio written out? Are you sure this isn't going to end up just doubling the staff's work, because now they really NEED to read two sets of info about the same events, rather than needing to read only one, and reading a second one as an option?

Quote from: Barzalene on March 19, 2015, 03:06:41 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 19, 2015, 02:57:33 PM
Yeah.  Everyone may need to find some other sources of warmth and fuzziness outside of the request tool.  Staff have a game to run.

Well, that will make less work for staff, but do nothing to keep communication flowing. I think if this is now part of the game it has to be at the least inoffensive. 

It makes less work for staff and players.  Some players have already chimed in about how this new format takes less time.  This is good.  I've read over some of these reports and agree, it is easier to read and takes less time.  This is good, too.  Time has been saved on both sides.  Communication has flowed.  The report has been made.  The things that need to be addressed will be addressed, and there might even be commentary on things that we need to engage on in terms of asking questions, engaging in more dialogue about something from this starting point.

To address an earlier comment:

Quote from: Barzalene on March 19, 2015, 02:24:23 PM
That said I would remind and counsel you that most people have a real need to feel heard and understood. I know you know that. My point is whatever method you go to has to meet that need.

That is the point of communicating via report.  Don't turn it into a novel and you will make yourself heard by concisely telling us what's up.  We'll also understand you at that point because we aren't forced to wade through pages of material to get to what you are actually saying.  This meets that need; before, we were going way above and beyond any need and players were often going way above and beyond necessary reporting.

Quote
It sounds as if a lot of anxiety come back to some acknowledgment of the bios. Can that be addressed?

If there is a lot of anxiety around acknowledgement of bios, then this needs to be understood:

Bios aren't primarily for staff, they are for players.  As such, write them for yourself if you write them at all.  Staff may (and often will) read them, but it is not a requirement that staff read your bio to understand the essence of what you are reporting.  This is icing on the cake.  This is the companion novel to the game.  If you are saying we should comment and acknowledge bios, I am sorry, but no.  If you mean as you indicated later that an automatic icon should pop up if someone accesses the bio, maybe that's a possibility.

Character reports aren't primarily for you, they are for staff.  As such, write them for staff, make them easy to read and understand, and don't clog it.  In return, your needs will be met.

Quote from: wizturbo on March 19, 2015, 05:21:42 PM
If staff take the saved time from not reading character reports, and turn it into more NPC animations for clans, I think everyone involved will be much happier.  After all, I'd much rather my NPC superior get animated and talk to my character ICly about their performance than get an OOC kudos for my character reports.

Just a quick note here to say that we tend NOT to do this because oftentimes, IC responses from IC superiors can be provided via request.  Most of the time it's pretty easy to say "yes" or "no" via a short line or two.  This saves time on both sides--you get a response faster, we get the response out faster and don't need to set up an IC meeting (which takes time, and also takes longer to animate than just reply).  This reserves the leader animation for a special event, or an event where they show up and are just "being themselves" and may happen to talk to you--making it cool for you, other PCs, and also more fun to animate in general!  That's not to say it won't happen from time to time, nor does that mean we will avoid animating higher NPCs upon occasion...but those decisions are usually plot-based.  If we are saving time here then we are going to use that for several things:  animations (usually of like-ranked NPCs), plotting (both supporting what you do as PCs and coming up with new ones to drive more), planning (new things don't appear without some work! :)), and murdering more PCs enriching the lives of the players of this game.

Quote from: Lizzie on March 20, 2015, 07:49:42 AM
Now that character reports are streamlined and bios have hopped up a few steps in priority, how does the staff want to see bios written? First person? Third person? An OOC explanation of a player's character's life? Or an IC explanation as told to a page/scribe/someone who retells the story?

Nergal had some suggestions on it (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48999.msg872433.html#msg872433) but we haven't officially decided (or really...seen much suggestion from players?) on what else would be good here for standard process.

Quote
I feel that not putting explanations for things into my reports might result in my reports being misunderstood or misinterpreted.  Things like:

Report: who/what: Kalilyeah is planning on killing her boyfriend Malik. Where/how: In her apartment with a stabby stick Why: Because he cheated on her.

But the why isn't all that simple. It's a long history of mistrust, with very specific examples that have built up over a period of four years. The recent cheating episode is just the last straw. Kalilyeah isn't a petty PKing twink whose player is just coming up with a justification to add another victim notch onto her stabby stick handle. But if I go all streamlined on this, that's how it'll look. Therefore, a bio entry would be - basically - necessary, where it wasn't before. Before, I would've written a whole paragraph just about the build-up to this right in the character report. Now I feel like I'll need to do TWO reports - one an actual character report, one a bio.

If you've been reporting, or been bio'ing, what is there to worry about?  You've already mentioned your relationship in a previous report (I assume) or in a bio.  If you don't like writing bios, perhaps it was a footnote in a previous report--Kalilyeah is with this guy.  And then in the next report--this guy is a dick, but Kalilyeah is still with him.  And then in this report--yeah, Kalilyeah is going to kill him.   If this is your first report in which Malik is even mentioned, then it's not hard to add a couple more sentences to summarize the "whole paragraph" you mention--even if you've mentioned it before.  Summarize!

QuoteKalilyeah is planning on killing her boyfriend Malik.  They have been "together" for 2 IC years now, but it hasn't been fun.  Mailk has always been a bastard to Kalilyeah, but this last episode in which he cheated on her--that's the final straw.  She plans to stab him with a pointy stick in the apartment and then abandon it. 

I wrote a bio about this titled "Kalil-YEAH, I'M GOING TO KILL THIS CHEATING ASSHOLE" which goes more in-depth about her feelings on the matter.

Quote
Are you sure this isn't going to end up just doubling the staff's work, because now they really NEED to read two sets of info about the same events, rather than needing to read only one, and reading a second one as an option?

We shouldn't need what is in a bio.  You should summarize and provide it in the report.  If you are writing your reports in such a way that they don't provide information then we will tell you.

Thanks Nyr. It sounds to me that if I simply shorten my previously long-ass reports, but include the same information, I should be fine without feeling unnecessarily obligated to add a bio. I've had staffers thank me for the "entertaining" reports I sometimes write, including insight into my characters' minds. I have enjoyed writing them, so this is a disappointment to me, though I can appreciate why it's better for others.

If you like to entertain with your reports, there are definitely ways to do so without being wordy.

Title your reports with something humorous.  (Some of you do this.  It is funny.)
Make each section a pun.  (Some of you use puns.  They do prompt giggles.)
Pictures are worth a thousand words.  You could perhaps put in a meme or a gif.

For what it's worth, saying more with less is difficult to do.  I've spent plenty of time on work e-mails, professional ones, that need to be slimmed down--because the end user doesn't CARE about the stuff that I think they do.  Edit, edit, edit, and my half-page e-mail is now 4 lines long.  I've told them what they need to know and what they care about.

Quote from: Nyr on March 20, 2015, 09:49:21 AM
If you like to entertain with your reports, there are definitely ways to do so without being wordy.

Title your reports with something humorous.  (Some of you do this.  It is funny.)
Make each section a pun.  (Some of you use puns.  They do prompt giggles.)
Pictures are worth a thousand words.  You could perhaps put in a meme or a gif.

For what it's worth, saying more with less is difficult to do.  I've spent plenty of time on work e-mails, professional ones, that need to be slimmed down--because the end user doesn't CARE about the stuff that I think they do.  Edit, edit, edit, and my half-page e-mail is now 4 lines long.  I've told them what they need to know and what they care about.

Ah good then! I was worried you were looking for some sterile fact sheet. So the silly titles and occasional forays into the world of alliterations are still welcome. I still haven't mastered the art of inserting pics - but it turned out I think that my browser's security enhancements simply made it impossible for me to see them, so I thought they weren't showing up for anyone else. I'll have to try that out. But y'all just remember to let me know if you can't see it!

Unfortunately, I started a post earlier (yesterday) and posted it before I was done with it.  It said something about "cold hard facts", maybe that is where you are getting that from.  I've edited it out because I wasn't done writing that sentence and I don't know where I was going with it.

We want the info.  It can still be delivered in a way that entertains you and/or staff (if you like doing that) as long as it is summary-based, concise, etc.  If you don't really care for that and just want to get your reports over with, good news!  We want less information than you think you need to provide, and you can get back to doing what you like doing!

Quote from: Nyr on March 20, 2015, 08:43:36 AM
Bios aren't primarily for staff, they are for players.  As such, write them for yourself if you write them at all.  Staff may (and often will) read them, but it is not a requirement that staff read your bio to understand the essence of what you are reporting.  This is icing on the cake.  This is the companion novel to the game.  If you are saying we should comment and acknowledge bios, I am sorry, but no.  If you mean as you indicated later that an automatic icon should pop up if someone accesses the bio, maybe that's a possibility.

Character reports aren't primarily for you, they are for staff.  As such, write them for staff, make them easy to read and understand, and don't clog it.  In return, your needs will be met.

These two lines really clarifies things for me, and I would suggest the staff try to make it this clear when writing up a guide or summary of this policy. Thank you!

Quote from: Nyr on March 20, 2015, 10:07:13 AM

We want the info.  It can still be delivered in a way that entertains you and/or staff (if you like doing that) as long as it is summary-based, concise, etc.  If you don't really care for that and just want to get your reports over with, good news!  We want less information than you think you need to provide, and you can get back to doing what you like doing!

This is good. I don't know about anyone else but this made me feel better about things.

Quote from: Nyr on March 20, 2015, 10:07:13 AM
We want the info.

The thought I keep coming back to when I read this thread is:  Why?  What are you going to use it for?  I'm not trying to be snarky or obtuse, I'm trying to figure out, in terms of staff work, what is the point?  And the follow-up question is, is that stuff really worth the 20, or 60, or 240 minutes per week that staff are spending on it?

For example, one of the Items to be Reported is clan recruitment.  If you're looking to trim the fat, I think you have to ask: Is that really important?  Do staff go review each recruited character's history, or read through the player's account notes?  Or do the staff just make a mental, "okay, cool." and move on?  If that information is actually used for something concrete, why not take the time to write up a script that captures and logs each character's recruitment, and sends a notification to the relevant staff?  That would be more accurate, more reliable, and more timely than PC reports.  The exact same questions could be applied to clan accounts, player activity, player-kills, and probably several other things like item requests and reimbursements.

From reading through this thread, the value in reporting seems to be simply in keeping channels of communication open.  Staff don't want to be in the dark, and players want to have access to the staff.  Those are valuable things, but they also feel like they're exactly what is being curtailed.  That's fine, though - if the importance of reporting is maintaining player-staff communication, and that communication is taking up too much time, maybe there's a better alternative.  An in-game twitter?  A better "wish" system that could be directed to clan groupings (ie "wish kadius" or "wish southern team")?  Allowing ad hoc player-staff meetings within clan groups?  RP counselors who can sit and take time to offer feedback or constructive criticism?  I don't know what the best alternatives are, but I feel like maybe report's time has come and gone.

Armageddon started back when email was kind of a sacred thing, but we're now into the age of smartphones and apps and always-on, 24/7 communication.  Are TPS reports really worth clinging to?

The short answer is that the information is handy to have. No single member of staff is on 24/7 to watch their clan, or to see wishes, and going through logs would take even longer. So a brief summary from players, one that shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes to write ideally, really does go a long way toward the effort to coordinate the virtual and NPC reaction of the world.

It helps keeps plots in motion. It is so much easier for a player to write in the report that they would say something to their NPC superior, than to repeatedly try to contact the NPC and wish up for an animation, hoping that their clan staff will be online to know what to say back.

Clan recruitment doesn't need to be more than a name and a brief reason for why they were hired/fired/promoted. A part of the job of storytellers is to monitor their clan, and know who's in it, so yes, it's important. It's more for a mental note, although looking at a character's history doesn't take that long either if a storyteller chooses to do it. The real meat of the report is the last third of it, but even that can be pretty short for most leader PCs on most weeks.

It's easy to deride character reports as "TPS reports", and it's certainly not the first time I've seen that used, but it implies that it is pointless, messy paperwork, when we're really not asking for a lot. Players volunteer more information, and then maybe come to expect that they need to always include more. The fact of the matter is that we can do more with less, and indeed, want to do more with less.

Quote from: Nergal on March 21, 2015, 09:14:29 AM
The short answer is that the information is handy to have. No single member of staff is on 24/7 to watch their clan, or to see wishes, and going through logs would take even longer. So a brief summary from players, one that shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes to write ideally, really does go a long way toward the effort to coordinate the virtual and NPC reaction of the world.

It helps keeps plots in motion. It is so much easier for a player to write in the report that they would say something to their NPC superior, than to repeatedly try to contact the NPC and wish up for an animation, hoping that their clan staff will be online to know what to say back.

Clan recruitment doesn't need to be more than a name and a brief reason for why they were hired/fired/promoted. A part of the job of storytellers is to monitor their clan, and know who's in it, so yes, it's important. It's more for a mental note, although looking at a character's history doesn't take that long either if a storyteller chooses to do it. The real meat of the report is the last third of it, but even that can be pretty short for most leader PCs on most weeks.

It's easy to deride character reports as "TPS reports", and it's certainly not the first time I've seen that used, but it implies that it is pointless, messy paperwork, when we're really not asking for a lot. Players volunteer more information, and then maybe come to expect that they need to always include more. The fact of the matter is that we can do more with less, and indeed, want to do more with less.

Good to know. I know I personally have a bad habit of putting a lot extra things in my reports, and I should be using biography entries more!

Question about Bios, is there a "template" for thought based ones.  Like ones about thoughts of events (or people)?

Instead of bitching me out in a character report response, once, my staff animated my superior and bitched me out.

Way more fun. This gives staff the chance to give that a go if they feel so inclined.

Nergal makes a very good point about when people are online.

I started filing character reports before they were really called character reports. I'd just send in emails to my staff periodically to let them know what was up.

This was because I presumed the majority of them were USA time zone people since the majority of the playerbase is.

It's good to keep in mind your staff may live on the other side of the world and as such they could potentially miss a lot of shit you do. I found reports really valuable for bridging that time zone gap. It was always great when my staff would go "oh thanks for that, we saw and are already dealing with ___" but very often it was "whoa, the things you miss when you don't play at 3am, thanks for the heads up."

Character report templates are in.  Please begin using these and let us know what you think. 

Stuff to know in advance:
Character Reports - Leader -- these are for leader PCs; please try to file these weekly.  You're a leader if you have other people reporting to you or you are over them in some sort of leadership capacity in-game.  If you don't need the template, that's fine, but the things in the template would be the things we would like to know.  Please focus on summarizing.
Character Reports -- these are for everyone that is not a leader PC; if you wish to file these, file them monthly.  If you don't need the template, that's fine, but the things in the template would be the things that we would like to know.  Please focus on summarizing.

Other tips:

• If you have previously been filing weekly reports as a non-leader, please transition to a format that updates staff less often.  We'll let you know if you can or should report at different intervals, so ask if you are curious.
• If you have previously been including a lot of IC information in your reports, please transition to summaries of what has happened since the last time you reported.
• Please format your reports.  Wall of text paragraphs are difficult to read.  Similarly, unformatted reports can be more difficult to read.  Break up your text and make it easier for us to read.  This is why we have the templates in the first place. We find headings and titles that are bolded to be easier to process and break up the black on white background that we have on our end of the request tool.
• Summarize.

I did a once-over of reports in the queue.  There are 29 at this time filed from 3/27 up to today.  Of these, about half were from non leaders.  Some of these could be scaled down as they report on a weekly basis.

Things to keep in mind/things that can be learned from the 29 filed:

• At least 5 were right at or over 1000 words, not including replies or added notes by the player.  The length alone requires a lot more reading and processing by staff.  If you are writing something to staff...and it is very long...and you want to know why it hasn't been handled yet...that is probably at least one contributing factor!
• I'd guesstimate that about one third of these have already started using the new suggested templates and have already started trimming down and summarizing things.  Their reports are easier to read because of this.  If you are going to write something longer, please at least use the template and format it so that it is easier to read.
• Do not submit unsolicited logs unless they are going in as an original submission.  In-game, you are part of the story.  Character reports are your book report of the story you were a part of--don't just throw the book at us and tell us to read it, please.

Sometimes, for roleplaying situations, the logs are necessary. I know when I was sending reports as

• , I was asked to submit some logs to show that I was actually, in fact, doing things. Because staff were busy or they just wanted to see the stuff I was doing.
  
  I would say, if you want to submit logs, submit a few. Give staff a small taste in your report, like four or five lines. They can actually go back and see these (if they need/want to) in their runlogs, or it can entice them to watch you more later on.
  
  
  But yes. Generally, less is more. My character reports really don't hit 1000 words. I actually don't know an average, but I'd say anywhere from 100-500 depending on what the character is and what I'm doing. I don't like writing fucking book reports. I didn't like it in high school, I don't like it now.

If you are asked to submit logs, they are not unsolicited.

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a good way to show you're roleplaying things when staff aren't there by giving a few lines of what's going on so staff might be more keen to watch you.

I guess that might not be something you guys want, and it's not something that I actually do. It's a suggestion.

Quote from: Nyr on March 14, 2015, 12:52:39 PM
...

• You have to report (and report regularly) to be noticed.
• If you don't file lengthy (or regular) reports, you won't get karma.

...

Q:  Who should report?

A:  Leaders, specifically, on a weekly basis.  Everyone else may report, but weekly reports are not required, and in fact, less-frequent reports are encouraged (a once-per month update would be fine).  If something major happens that needs staff response or notification, feel free to report at that time.

...

So I'm a bit confused here.  Not filing reports at all will keep me from getting karma once time comes up for an account review or whatever?  But then you say that non-leaders may report, implying that they don't have to.

I mostly just want clarification on whether or not reports are absolutely necessary to earn any karma.  That line kind of scared me, since I would very much like to earn at least a point of karma once I hit 6 months.  The only other PC of mine that lasted some time may have only barely made it to that one RL month mark, but he did go through a few interesting things that I suppose could have been worth reporting.

It just kind of sucks because writing out things like that usually necessitates me being in the right kind of mood.  Even when writing up a description and background for a new character, I usually sit around considering ideas and then kind of get a general outline in my head of what I'm going to write before I even actually start writing.  Also, it's best when I have sleep, coffee, and cigarettes, but I guess that's not so relevant here.  Point being, writing something out like that, which has a bit more of a novelish feel to it than just playing the game, can seem a bit intimidating at first.  And with writing up a new character, I usually sit around for like an hour or two at least, rummaging through ideas before I settle on something, and then usually a bit more thinking between that and actually starting to write (at which point it just flows, really).

But reading through some of the stuff in this thread, including the templates in here, does make it seem a bit easier and not as big of a deal to write up a report.  But what about having a character that's, say, relatively not too important, and who I probably don't have anything of real significance to report about?  I guess it would be nice to have some acknowledgement that staff know I exist, and also to show them that I am a part of this world and would like to continue being so.  I've been playing for what, a couple months now, since rediscovering my love for Armageddon?  So yeah, still a fair way to go before I even have the potential to earn some karma.  But if character reports for non-leaders are indeed required to get karma, obviously it's something I'd like to start working on now than any closer to the 6-month mark.

I'm just still a bit confused on whether it is or not, because the couple parts of the OP I quoted up there seem kind of contradictory to me.

Upon rereading, I'm getting the impression the lines about being noticed and karma were intended as examples of expectations people have of reports, with the implication that they may be inaccurate..?

I don't write reports. I don't plan on ever having a character that necessitates writing reports.

If that means staff pays me no notice and I earn no karma, so be it.

No, people thought that you needed to report all the time (even if you weren't a leader) to be considered a good player/get karma.  But the point of this thread is to tell you that that isn't true.  Leaders need to send in reports every week but other people shouldn't feel stressed out about it and just report if something "crazy" happens.

So for instance I've had my non leader character for months and have sent probably one report, cause nothing has really happened to be worthy of reporting.

LauraMars is correct. Nyr was saying that the idea that you'd get karma because you sent in reports was an incorrect expectation/assumption. While communication is an area that you can get karma for, you can't get to 8 karma by sending in reports.

Leaders are required to send in reports weekly.

Non-leaders should not send in reports more than monthly. They don't have to send them in at all if they don't want to.

There is nothing about reporting in and of itself that will get you karma, or that will mean you are overlooked, either.

Still confused on who a character report benefits and how for non-leadership characters. Is it primarily for staff to read interesting stories? An avenue for staff to interact with my character if we both happen to be online at the same time? A way to prove myself a reliable character in order to get karma?

It's a way for staff to interact with you and know what's going on. If you keep the mapprised of plots you can expect that there is a possibility they may help to further that plot along.

When playing a hired killer/ killer it is good to list your targets in a character report and the reasons why i.e: X paid me, because you will be able to refer to this should you suddenly get an opportunity to murder them.

It also keeps imms apprised of various parts of ongoing plots. For instance a pc of mine killed a Kurac guard NPC for plot reasons, so I sent a report in about that since that is pretty relevant, a witness may have seen my description etc.

Character reports benefit the people who take the time to send them!

If you were playing a tabletop RPG like Pathfinder or Numenera or D&D, whoever is helping you tell your story by playing the role of dungeon master needs to have a clear picture of what is going on, what you would like from them, etc. Obviously, if you're sitting down at the table every couple weeks, your dungeon master knows everything going on in the campaign! But if your roleplaying world is accessible to you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and your DM isn't always there, they need to stay apprised somehow if you want them to provide the best experience.

Non-leader/non-sponsored PCs certainly aren't obligated to send character reports, but if you're one of those players that prefers to fly under the radar and do your own thing, and then you wish up asking for <insert major animation here> you probably won't have a lot of luck, because I may or may not know what you're talking about, and if I have no clue what you're doing, I can't help you.

Non-leader/non-sponsored PCs who do provide character reports also demonstrate that yeah, they make an effort to communicate both ways and let us have a clearer picture of their PC, their goals, motivations, etc, so that when I sit there wondering "Will this guy be as good a Byn sergeant as he says?" or "Can this guy be trusted to play a nilazi who doesn't use zombies to recreate the Thriller dance scene?" I have some reference material!

I will randomly animate more things for you and help your story along if you tell me what you're trying to do.