Okay so this has been bothering me for a while. Once a long, long time ago I got to watch a pretty epic Borsail tear a Fale lord apart in the Traders Inn for skulking about like an ELf. This conversation so effected me that I decided to NEVER branch the -Aide- I had at the time because I felt a person in her social standing wasn't/shouldn't be sneaking around the city like Rinither. I played this PC for 2 years irl..She was a social role. It never once bothered me that she couldn't do much codedly.
Over the last two years however I suddenly see nobles creeping about everywhere. Nobles hiding behind curtains, in the rafters and under tables..."Oh! That strange shadow in the corner of the room? Thats just Lady Borsail she likes to hang out in dark shadowy corners and lurk behind bookshelves" Its drives me nuts this isn't called out on more. Nobles have servants to do their spying. Use your aides that's why you have them! Also they look ridiculous with their guards, that are not good at stealth, lurking along behind them. I think what was really is jarring to me though is after the first time I saw this behavior instead of seeing the other Nobles at in the room just at the chance to down one of their peers they all just played it off like it was joke. Then like the same week I started seeing another one of them do it. That was about 2 years ago and now its just common thing and no one ever seems to say anything about it. I guess I am just wondering if this bothers anyone else as much as me?
Yes. Thats moronic. It's one thing to do it with some cognizance of the awkwardness. And the world should react, not imitate. But for everyone to start slinking around like elves is not the right direction. I hope you send complaints so staff can correct.
Well here are my 2 'sids worth on this subject. My characters used to ALWAYS suspect those who were sneaking around as either spying or being assassins or looking to lift something from someone. In fact I had a character that (in private severely questioned a then friend of his about why said friend was hiding out in the streets in the daylight. Seems I got accused of trying to guild sniff and was told by staff that just because someone is sneaking or hiding my character shouldn't automatically assume that character is a thief, spy, or assassin. They could just simply be "blending in" or "waiting quietly" in a place for someone to show up. This really confused me. My characters still tend to think something is "fishy" about anyone that they see "blending in" or whatever. But I try to be more diplomatic about how they approach the situation.
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on March 10, 2015, 10:58:46 AM
Well here are my 2 'sids worth on this subject. My characters used to ALWAYS suspect those who were sneaking around as either spying or being assassins or looking to lift something from someone. In fact I had a character that (in private severely questioned a then friend of his about why said friend was hiding out in the streets in the daylight. Seems I got accused of trying to guild sniff and was told by staff that just because someone is sneaking or hiding my character shouldn't automatically assume that character is a thief, spy, or assassin. They could just simply be "blending in" or "waiting quietly" in a place for someone to show up. This really confused me. My characters still tend to think something is "fishy" about anyone that they see "blending in" or whatever. But I try to be more diplomatic about how they approach the situation.
But Nobles -don't- blend in with the crowd..crowds part when they pass
Unless the Noble is taking great pains to dress differently, hide their 'signs of Noble office', or is just really damn good at finding shadows that pool in taverns, they shouldn't be sneaking or hiding IMHO. As pointed out, it would be much more difficult for someone who stands out in a crowd, to blend into one.
The one time I saw a noble sneak about, I was a sneaky myself, called them out on it, and got offered a job.
That said, for nobles to sneak and hide anywhere that isn't the noble quarter is silly, yes.
Quote from: Patuk on March 10, 2015, 11:43:12 AM
The one time I saw a noble sneak about, I was a sneaky myself, called them out on it, and got offered a job.
That said, for nobles to sneak and hide anywhere that isn't the noble quarter is silly, yes.
haha, that's pretty funny.
Eh.
I don't think it's terribly unreasonable that some quirky, rebellious, young noble would want to ditch their guards, put on a dark, hooded cloak, and mingle/sneak amongst the common rabble.
But this sort of behavior should be quite rare and it should have consequences.
Sneaking with NPC bodyguards should probably not be allowed, OOCly, since it doesn't make much sense. Probably ditto for sneaking without taking off brightly-colored silks and shiny metal rings.
Yes, the stereotypical noble probably has no business sneaking around. Not every noble is stereotypical though.
Putting in a complaint through the request tool will let the staff sort out whether it was justified/in-character, but I would react appropriately ICly.
I think a lot of this could be solved by giving silks a penalty to hide and perhaps do the same for people past a certain rank in noble clans. I don't think it makes much sense for anyonr in silks to hide for very long, now that I think of it.
Quote from: Patuk on March 10, 2015, 02:18:57 PM
I think a lot of this could be solved by giving silks a penalty to hide and perhaps do the same for people past a certain rank in noble clans. I don't think it makes much sense for anyonr in silks to hide for very long, now that I think of it.
Or we can just do what we've been doing, which is when we see a noble acting silly we let them know they should stop being silly and/or remember to switch back to walking when they should (surely I'm not the only player who ever forgot to do this?). Sometimes nobles are actually not being silly, they are being IC, in which case it's all good!
Being a social role (nobility/aide/etc), I think the consequence should be dealt with through IC gossip/rumors/etc. Though, it's pretty jarring if someone who you expect to be a role model is breaking what's appropriate. That said, if there's a lack of appropriate role models (and such things bother you) maybe it's time to fill that position out for the game? =)
[I should probably add that this applies to Allanaki social roles? The whole social scene in Allanak is about who is the most important/richest/powerful person in the city, and you make sure that everyone knows that. A noble/influential GMH agent who is trying to avoid bringing attention to themselves in a crowd is either in the presence of someone greater, or has done something wrong. Tuluk has their own Strange Stuff.]
Its a great distinction. If someone is sneaking without being aware they may have just forgotten to walk. You have to cut people some slack. If they're hiding at the bar and talking to you while hidden and generally being silly that's another story.
Quote from: Patuk on March 10, 2015, 02:18:57 PM
I think a lot of this could be solved by giving silks a penalty to hide and perhaps do the same for people past a certain rank in noble clans. I don't think it makes much sense for anyonr in silks to hide for very long, now that I think of it.
Rate pubilc areas by it's socioconomic basis giving surface clothing thats about that level a penalty to sneak/hide for.neing too flashy. Do the same retrospectively for ragged/unfashionable clothing.
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 10, 2015, 03:24:14 PM
Rate pubilc areas by it's socioconomic basis giving surface clothing thats about that level a penalty to sneak/hide for.neing too flashy. Do the same retrospectively for ragged/unfashionable clothing.
In a perfect world, sure. I would much rather time be placed on a bjillion things before this though.
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 10, 2015, 03:24:14 PM
Quote from: Patuk on March 10, 2015, 02:18:57 PM
I think a lot of this could be solved by giving silks a penalty to hide and perhaps do the same for people past a certain rank in noble clans. I don't think it makes much sense for anyonr in silks to hide for very long, now that I think of it.
Rate pubilc areas by it's socioconomic basis giving surface clothing thats about that level a penalty to sneak/hide for.neing too flashy. Do the same retrospectively for ragged/unfashionable clothing.
There are two points that are getting mixed up.
1. The logic of coded success to hiding. HIDE seems to be two things: clinging to shadows, on the one hand, and blending in with a crowd, on the other. So if you have shadows, then I'm pretty sure the coded clothing works just fine. If you are blending in with a crowd, however, dressing like a ninja at a fancy Borsail tea party might be rather crazy, or dressing like a noble at a Warrens orgy might be a bit much. Maybe some code could be implemented to fix this, but that strikes me as really really hard, so let's just RP nice.
2. The social ramifications of a noble acting like a friggin' elf. This can just be handled ICly (or via a character report).
Quote from: nauta on March 10, 2015, 03:33:01 PM
2. The social ramifications of a noble acting like a friggin' elf. This can just be handled ICly (or via a character report).
This!
I'm not sure whether it's been fixed, but I think there's a bug where someone who can't see you can continue guarding you (effectively, even).
Fixing that small bug (and I think it's a bug, rather than a feature) might serve as a deterrent to elf emulation.
Meh. I'm inclined to be very forgiving and give lots of benefit of the doubt on this. I've never played a noble, but having played a GMH family dude, I can sympathize with players who may want to enjoy their coded abilities as well as social abilities. The more we lock leaders in with rigid constraints, the more (some of) our quality players/leaders will be tempted to say screw it, store, and make indie rangers. Leaders are already highly limited. No need to jump onto the GDB and complain about situations you may not fully understand in an attempt to brow beat existing leaders into basically a MUSH experience.
Besides, without sneaky nobles, we wouldn't have the Scarlet Pimpernel, Batman, etc. ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAdFwL1ozHU
I would advise taking into consideration that using the sneak command is not necessarily 'slinking around like an elf' and using the hide command is not necessarily 'hiding in the wardrobe'.
I would also advise taking into consideration that a lot of people (not just nobles) might forget they have Sneak enabled.
If you see something you think is questionable, say something to staff instead of calling out what appears to be current behavior (judging from your choice of words) on the GDB.
Quote from: Thunkkin on March 10, 2015, 03:45:18 PM
Meh. I'm inclined to be very forgiving and give lots of benefit of the doubt on this. I've never played a noble, but having played a GMH family dude, I can sympathize with players who may want to enjoy their coded abilities as well as social abilities. The more we lock leaders in with rigid constraints, the more (some of) our quality players/leaders will be tempted to say screw it, store, and make indie rangers. Leaders are already highly limited. No need to jump onto the GDB and complain about situations you may not fully understand in an attempt to brow beat existing leaders into basically a MUSH experience.
Besides, without sneaky nobles, we wouldn't have the Scarlet Pimpernel, Batman, etc. ...
I agree with your logic, but not your conclusion. I agree that we don't want to make sponsored role less fun. But I don't think relaxing expectations is the answer.
Quote from: CodeMaster on March 10, 2015, 03:41:44 PM
I'm not sure whether it's been fixed, but I think there's a bug where someone who can't see you can continue guarding you (effectively, even).
Fixing that small bug (and I think it's a bug, rather than a feature) might serve as a deterrent to elf emulation.
Agreed! And the NPC in question still follows you when you are hidden, which HAS to be a bug right, because I can't figure out how to RP when that happens.
*start derail scree now*
There are a million dubious bugs related to HIDE! Here's some others:
o You can follow someone (or shadow them) even if you can't see them.
o Someone can disappear from your sight even though you are watching them. (This might not be a BUG, but it strikes me as dubious, since WATCH is already limiting - when you watch someone, you can't watch anyone else or use SCAN, so what's the point of WATCH if not to keep an eye on the person in question precisely so they can't slip out of your sight!)
o If you have something subdued, and are hidden, well, it looks like that subdied person is just being dragged along.
o Ditto with mounts (IIRC).
o Dwarves and Giants are capable of hiding. (Ok, not a bug, but I've always been like: W.T.F. when that happens.)
o If a rat midfight decides to hide, you can suddenly be fighting someone you can't see.
o Rooms that clearly should break hide don't (rooms that are small which clearly state that it is well lit).
o A hidden person can start a brawl with you and it doesn't unhide them!
*end derail scree*
...and sometimes, the *character* is intentionally played by the player as a silly person. If that's the case, then it makes 100% total logical sense that he'd attempt to sneak around all the time. It would also make 100% total logical sense that he would think he's being crafty and clever and use thinks to express how tickled he is that he got past his Senior, or the Lord Templar, or his pesky brother's aide, or the elf loitering outside the bar, or the noble in the other house that he can't stand.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 10, 2015, 04:24:26 PM
...and sometimes, the *character* is intentionally played by the player as a silly person. If that's the case, then it makes 100% total logical sense that he'd attempt to sneak around all the time. It would also make 100% total logical sense that he would think he's being crafty and clever and use thinks to express how tickled he is that he got past his Senior, or the Lord Templar, or his pesky brother's aide, or the elf loitering outside the bar, or the noble in the other house that he can't stand.
Thank you. Was wondering if someone would point this out. I can even imagine a noble using sneak and hide who doesn't even have the skills.
I suggest everyone tries to have more fun with certain situations, and tries less to dictate how others play. But if you feel you really have to, player complaint is the way.
I hope nobody is feeling called out about this. Through the filter of my own character's eyes, the nobles and social elite in the game are doing a fantastic job.
I think everyone would agree there are circumstances where a noble would and could (realistically) get away with sneaking around. 100%.
Another thing I'll note: I find my play has improved by cycling in feedback from the GDB. That's a much more encouraging way to improve compared to receiving a player complaint. Maybe this thread is just one of those small things where someone might realize, "oh yeah, I have been a little fast and loose with my use of hide" -- and then it's done its job.
The player doesn't receive the player complaint. Staff does, so they can monitor it, then ask you about it if they see you're doing something you shouldn't.
The player shouldn't know they've been complained about, if the staff is doing their job right.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 10, 2015, 04:58:05 PM
The player doesn't receive the player complaint. Staff does, so they can monitor it, then ask you about it if they see you're doing something you shouldn't.
The player shouldn't know they've been complained about, if the staff is doing their job right.
Oh, okay.
I guess I meant to make two bigger points that veteran players might be quick to dismiss:
1) Threads like this do have a place on the GDB... at least for the sake of players (like me) who benefit from this kind of general, anonymous feedback about what's right and what's wrong.
2) It paints a bleak picture to imagine people playing anonymous tattle-tale against each other, rather than having an open discussion about something general and harmless like this. As long as names aren't named and nobody feels put on the spot, it can only be good for the game.
I'm just going to have to disagree entirely. Threads like just just makes any current nobles who were sneaking around feel like shit. Why do that when you could make a complaint that hurts nobody.
Not to mention a forum complaint might never even reach the players who are sneaking around. Where as a Player Complaint, if justified, almost assuredly will.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 10, 2015, 05:39:46 PM
I'm just going to have to disagree entirely. Threads like just just makes any current nobles who were sneaking around feel like shit. Why do that when you could make a complaint that hurts nobody.
Not to mention a forum complaint might never even reach the players who are sneaking around. Where as a Player Complaint, if justified, almost assuredly will.
Agreed, that is a good point. If it's a big deal, file a complaint. If it isn't a big deal, no need to air dirty laundry on the GDB just to public-shame the person and get some people to agree with you.
Quote from: Down Under on March 10, 2015, 06:11:34 PM
If it's a big deal, file a complaint. If it isn't a big deal, no need to air dirty laundry on the GDB just to public-shame the person and get some people to agree with you.
+1
I'm inferring that there's a particular person people have in mind, rather than just the two-year trend Bast described. In that case, yeah - perhaps a player complaint would have been in order. Sorry to run against the grain. :)
Quote from: CodeMaster on March 10, 2015, 07:57:57 PM
I'm inferring that there's a particular person people have in mind, rather than just the two-year trend Bast described. In that case, yeah - perhaps a player complaint would have been in order. Sorry to run against the grain. :)
Bast stated that she noticed this for the first time two years ago. She also stated:
QuoteThat was about 2 years ago and now its just common thing and no one ever seems to say anything about it.
which makes it clear her complaint is about a current situation happening in the present, not something vague over the past two years. The fact that it's common now, is her complaint. That would imply that nobles commonly sneak around. Since there are a very limited, small amount of noble PCs in the game, it's a pretty specific complaint since it can only be applied to a very limited number of players.
Also, I haven't noticed it. I'd say - I've actually witnessed players of a noble PC sneak - maybe three times, in all the years I've been playing. Meaning - three different PCs - one of them made a habit of it and I thought it was hillarious, and very IC. The others I figured had IC reasons for doing it, and didn't give it another moment's thought.
Literally never seen a noble sneak.
Have seen numerous vomiting up their guts and dying though.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 10, 2015, 08:07:18 PM
Literally never seen a noble sneak.
Have seen numerous vomiting up their guts and dying though.
lol
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 10, 2015, 08:07:18 PM
Literally never seen a noble sneak.
Have seen numerous vomiting up their guts and dying though.
There's partyin hard.
Then there's partyin nobly hard.
I would say play your own character the way you want and don't worry what others are doing. Most nobles I have seen are pretty well played.
But if the sneak was done right. Would it not look like the nobles guards are just simply walking down the street like normal living people?
Quote from: Wday on March 11, 2015, 12:36:28 AM
But if the sneak was done right. Would it not look like the nobles guards are just simply walking down the street like normal living people?
They'll be moving stealthily and failing, so might look somewhat weird.
I've seen a handful of stealthy nobles over the years, and it never once occurred that this was poor play.
They usually dressed commonly and did not use guards while snooping. I didn't see anything wrong with it, honestly, it was just...something different about that particular noble and how they did things. Again, I think we kind of impress 'what nobles act like and think like' a liiiiittle too far.
Quote from: Armaddict on March 11, 2015, 01:25:06 AM
I've seen a handful of stealthy nobles over the years, and it never once occurred that this was poor play.
They usually dressed commonly and did not use guards while snooping. I didn't see anything wrong with it, honestly, it was just...something different about that particular noble and how they did things. Again, I think we kind of impress 'what nobles act like and think like' a liiiiittle too far.
nobles are not allowed to be people with feelings and hobbies and personal interests
they must only fulfill the stereotypical archetype defined in their four sentence public blurb
I remember a certain Tor noble who snuck around all the time. And a particular Borsail noble wasn't too bad at it either, made it very difficult sometimes.
But would I say that was questionable play? No.
I will totally be calling the next tavern I open in game 'The Sneaky Noble' - Thankyou Bast :)
There are 2 things to consider here:
Noble PCs also start out the same as other PCs - i.e. they don't receive any skill bumps to begin with. The only way for them to raise their skills - is to use them. And, since they don't venture into the seedier areas of town, they are forced to raise their skills in the limited areas that they frequent.
Technically speaking, a noble who has been vetted by his/her House for advancement to public duty - should have these skills already in place. Unfortunately, the game does not allow/reflect this.
So, we're left with 2 options:
1) The noble PC doesn't use his sneaky skills at all, over the entire duration of his life.
2) The other players take things with a pinch of salt, and not view such incidences too literally.
For those players who feel that noble PCs should not have to use ANY sneaky skills at all - I say that that is not a fair premise. Different noble PCs have different skill sets, some may be fighters, others might be skulky and yet others might even be seen haggling in shops (even though they might have money coming out of their ears).....
Would you consider putting in a complaint about a noble PC who was supposed to be a martial expert (and had a title to that effect), but when you sparred with him, he was totally inept? That's the same analogy here....
Alternatively, Staff might wish to consider giving skill bumps to sponsored PCs, for skills that might not seem appropriate for them to be "failing" at.
As far as putting in a Staff Complaint - for sneaky nobles - IMO that really doesn't help anyone or anything in the long run.
Although - I WILL agree - that its stupid to sneak around with a servant/slave in tow. (Of course - one possible solution here is to request Staff to assign an NPC who has sneak/hide abilities, to complement your own sneaky skills).
That's the whole point I think that the original poster is saying. The concept of a "sneaky noble" does not fall in line with what being an Allanaki noble is, at least in Arm's history. The point of being a noble is so that you have all of your needs taken care of; you do not do what the common people do and everything done in public is to portray that. that said, playing a noble aaall the time like that is difficult so I think some leeway is possible, but it's not good for the game when people expect a sneaky noble as the norm (or even treat it as if its okay if it is seen regularly IG). That said, if you want to play a character that wants to pursue mundane tasks, a noble is not the role you should be apping for.
There are times in life when you need to take care of shit yourself. Period.
Thinking for ONE fucking second that the nobility leaves everything, EVERYTHING, in the hands of their minions is dumb/naive as shit.
Noble skulking? Meh, go ahead and be the idiot calling out a noble, that's a good way to be writing up a new character concept. Feel free to gossip like a mufucka tho. Nobles/Templars should be the only ones calling another noble out.
Nobles entering the rinth and having an ale? Not so much.
Sneaking around like an elf?! How dare you. He/she was highly trained by the Tor Academy.
These are people who aren't told no. Telling them not to sneak is silly.
Quote from: ShaLeah on March 11, 2015, 08:21:36 AM
These are people who aren't told no. Telling them not to sneak is silly.
Nobles are told no all the time! Only it's more like:
No! Please! No! No! (http://www.moviesounds.com/analyze/hearno.wav)
If you are having problems with sneaky nobles, think of Varys or Littlefinger.
Those fuckers pop up out of nowhere all the time.
Quote from: Incognito on March 11, 2015, 07:06:43 AM
There are 2 things to consider here:
Noble PCs also start out the same as other PCs - i.e. they don't receive any skill bumps to begin with.
Generally incorrect, at least in my experience over the past few years. Additionally, with skill bumps that you can get from a skill bump application, someone with middling to high karma can be a beast of a noble on top of the skill bumps that might be normally granted for things that a noble of X House might be good at.
Quote
As far as putting in a Staff Complaint - for sneaky nobles - IMO that really doesn't help anyone or anything in the long run.
I don't think players should put in a staff complaint to complain about players. A player complaint would be more appropriate. Sometimes we do reply to them by saying "you know, you're actually incorrect here, and this is why."
I keep imagining an opportunity for a Zalanthafied version of The Emporer's New Clothes, wherein a noble's aides pretend not to see him sneaking around.
Quote from: flurry on March 11, 2015, 12:05:32 PM
I keep imagining an opportunity for a Zalanthafied version of The Emporer's New Clothes, wherein a noble's aides pretend not to see him sneaking around.
Karma to the player of the PC who convinces a noble that this new suit of clothes is woven of magick gold and gets them to wear it around. (Logs required.)
Look, if you have one noble that's notably sneaking about and being really silly and not behaving like a noble, trust me, the other nobles have noticed too and are making fun of him to his face and behind his back 9 hours a day 11 days a week and he's getting all kinds of laughed at and probably won't advance very far in his house and is an embarrassment to his relatives and they'll probably try to marry him off to a lesser house if he gets really stupid about it. That goes for all other non-noble behavior too (like not playing politics correctly, ignoring proper bribing etiquette, not wearing silk, etc)
So what I'm saying is these things usually work out in game.
What exactly isn't noble-like about not making a lot of noise when you walk and basically sneaking up on people?
I feel like the true/false coded limitations of DIKU convinces people that sneaking thieves are skulking about like 1940s silent film burglars when they're caught on a scan.
As opposed to just standing there and not being noticed because they're not making any noise. That creeping secret-agent thing is not how people sneak around unless they're actually doing secret-agent stuff. Sometimes.
I played a sneaky noble ???
But she wore leather and a mask when she did it
IT WAS A HOBBY
City-sneak/hide in crowded places and streets should most likely be looked upon as someone sticking close to a group or otherwise blending in in a way so that they are not (hopefully) noticed. If noticed, it should probably (depending on circumstances) be treated as they are somehow sticking out in the crowd. If you notice them doing this, you might still jump to the conclusion that they are up to no good, though, because they are still actively trying to avoid detection and FAILING. They look suspicious, one way or the other.
If it's a noble, and you recognize them, you might want to keep quiet anyway for fear of making them upset. Nobles sneaking around in silks and other flashy gear is silly, though, unless they are in place filled with nobles.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 11, 2015, 09:30:13 PM
As opposed to just standing there and not being noticed because they're not making any noise. That creeping secret-agent thing is not how people sneak around unless they're actually doing secret-agent stuff. Sometimes.
That's a great distinction to make. Anecdotally, I once read an undercover cop's description of how he "shadows" someone: sticks to the other side of the street and modest wardrobe changes as time passes (removing/putting on a baseball cap, slinging his jacket over his shoulder, etc.)
I'm hesitant to go on, because this thread feels like it's hitting some nerves (rest assured I love you all)...
But one can't blame many players for making the assumption that sneak and hide are correlated with slipknifery and thievery, because it tends to be precisely those guilds (and subguilds) that get kitted out with sneak and hide.
It's also worth iterating that nobles are exceptional people - they're Zalanthan celebrities. This is, I think, what Bast's original post was getting to.
Try to imagine Will Farrell (say, wearing his Talladega Nights onesie) going unnoticed for very long in a public place "because [he's] not making any noise." Imagine the lengths he would have to go to in order to make sure nobody recognized him. He'd literally have to hide under a table.
(http://i.imgur.com/TQGlhdr.jpg)
But eccentricities are totally fine, and I would think they'd almost be expected amid the noble population. Playing some equivalent to "Padme's handmaid" or whatever in that awful Star Wars movie seems like it could add to the world, and could be a lot of fun.
I want to end on a positive note, so I have to say that stuff like this is
awesome:
Quote from: Erythil on March 12, 2015, 04:34:16 AM
I played a sneaky noble ???
But she wore leather and a mask when she did it
IT WAS A HOBBY
Erythil, thank you for playing that character. :)
Real life celebrities are not the equivalent of Nobles, neither is a detective trying to trail someone "hiding or sneaking". :P
I think we could continue to argue why, but it comes down to how people interpret the documentation. I think the bottom line is if you feel your Noble is in the right to be sneaking around, do it. Its not other players that should dictate how you play, its the documentation and how that is interpretted by staff. If you have a problem with another player"s roleplay, put in a player complaint or do something appropriate about it ig. Better yet, be the role model that you think is deserving, and maybe you'll make a bigger impact on the game than what this thread will do (which is nothing really).
Personally, I get lots of good ideas on how to improve my role-play from the gdb. Just filter out the other noise. This thread is not without merit if someone takes something away from it.
IMO Hide+Shadow is totally tailing someone...right up until you follow them into their tiny apartment, then it becomes something else entirely.
If I've hurt any feelings, I certainly didn't mean to. I personally have not witnessed sneaking nobles.
That said, I have expectations for nobles. I think they should act like nobles. And hiding under a table in a tavern is not what I think nobles do. If you're being eccentric, then it should be clear that your pc is eccentric and not just poorly played. Forgetting to turn off sneak, or take the pick out of your hand isn't poor play. Making a habit of practicing hide and sneak randomly in public whenever bored or it occurs to you seems like a poor choice when playing a pc who is meant to be noticeably exceptional.
Hide skill =/= hiding under a table in a tavern.
That's going to get you noticed in a heartbeat. The hide skill is doing whatever is appropriate in that location to remain unnoticed. In a tavern, you're standing in a crowd of carousing tavern-goers or sitting at a table in the rear surrounded by others and not drawing attention.
Hardly seems eccentric for a noble to want to dress in something nondescript and observe how people behave when they're not bowing and scraping to him/her. Little weird, admittedly, but people can be curious.
Quote from: racurtne on March 12, 2015, 08:57:01 AM
Hide skill =/= hiding under a table in a tavern.
That's going to get you noticed in a heartbeat. The hide skill is doing whatever is appropriate in that location to remain unnoticed. In a tavern, you're standing in a crowd of carousing tavern-goers or sitting at a table in the rear surrounded by others and not drawing attention.
Hardly seems eccentric for a noble to want to dress in something non-descript and observe how people behave when they're not bowing and scraping to him/her.
If we do get into the nitty detail, hide inside a tavern is not "blending into the crowd". Someone dressed in rags and someone decked in silks cannot equally "blend into the crowd" if they have the same hide skill. What they are doing is using the environment to hide them, so hiding behind the curtains or crates, climbing into windows, stalking along the roof, so on. This is why it's "noticeable" when someone is trying to hide and fails, or that you see "a shadow" when you have scan and see someone hidden.
Well, I said dressing in something nondescript, not sneaking in silks. That is silly.
What you are describing in my opinion are limitations of the code. The person doing the hiding can specify how they are hiding with semote. I disagree completely with the notion that you are exclusively using the environment. That's silly to me.
You can be 'noticed' by an observant person. Doesn't have to be hiding under a table comical IMO. When sneaking down the street, you might be following a group of vnpcs to avoid notice, but then they are not talking to you or interacting in any significant way and an observant person notices this inconsistency with the 'fiction' you are trying to create of being part of this group. In this example, you are acting strangely, yes, so they might suspect you are up to no good. You are not, however, bending over and tip-toeing down a street.
Edit: In a tavern, you walk in behind a few taller people, deliberately obscuring yourself from the bar. You then settle in at a far table to gamble, but really your attention is on the goings on at another table. An observant person notices you watching the other tavern-goers more than your own game/drink, perhaps they notice you focusing on someone in particular. Perhaps they notice you react to something they said, they caught a tell, and know you're not there for your enjoyment, but rather to eavesdrop/spy. Still suspicious, not ridiculous.
Anyway, that's my two-sids on this.
Quote from: racurtne on March 12, 2015, 08:57:01 AM
Hide skill =/= hiding under a table in a tavern.
That's going to get you noticed in a heartbeat. The hide skill is doing whatever is appropriate in that location to remain unnoticed. In a tavern, you're standing in a crowd of carousing tavern-goers or sitting at a table in the rear surrounded by others and not drawing attention.
Hardly seems eccentric for a noble to want to dress in something non-descript and observe how people behave when they're not bowing and scraping to him/her. Little weird, admittedly, but people can be curious.
If they are in disguise that's not applicable. I assumed the op referred to those people who do things like type hide in the middle of a conversation.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 12, 2015, 10:18:20 AM
If they are in disguise that's not applicable. I assumed the op referred to those people who do things like type hide in the middle of a conversation.
Yeah, I gotcha. I try to give those people the benefit of the doubt if in a public place. IE they turn off into the crowd before I can say another word. Sometimes people leave you feeling like you just got Batman'd and I agree those are some pretty :-\ moments.
Being batman'd is great.
The sneaky, dark clothed man says, in sirihish,
"Be seeing you."
You say, quickly, in sirihish,
"Waitijusthadonemore Krath damnit he's gone."
Sometimes you can bend the limits on what code dictates for the sake of roleplay and context which is fine. I guess to explain why I am defending this is because that is not the 'norm', and it seems people expect it to be the norm because the code allows them to do it.
In the example of hiding in a tavern, if you are indeed allowed to use the crowd like the environment, then the code should give you that benefit. As it is however, the more people that are present in a room, the harder it is to hide, the easier it is that someone notices you. Also, the heavier equipment you are wearing, the harder it is to sneak/hide. A player can glean this from the docs. That means the code does not allow you to use the crowd to "hide", you are using the environment in a blatant way of obscuring your presence. You are crawling around, having to vary your pace to move from area to area, possibly required to fit into small spaces, etc. This is a jump in logic, but I'm going that far to make a point: the code supports one view of roleplay while not so much with the other.
So to come back around to the original poster's comment, how someone views what sneaking/hiding is would definitely make a difference on how someone should react when they see a noble sneaking/hiding. If sneaking and hiding is "walking with silent steps" and "blending into the crowd", then its perfectly alright for a silk wearing noble to use these skills in the social public (because there are lots of noise and there are other nobles/merchants walking around). However if the code says sneaking is "using the environment to get around unnoticed", and hiding as "using the environment to mask your presence", then it makes no sense that a noble would slink around like that.
I could imagine them crawling on their hands and knees behind a table, hiding behind a curtain, skirting around from behind someone's area of view, walking in the shadow of a low-hanging roof, etc, and so long as the noble's player does not semote and show that they are doing something contrary to how I view the code, I am allowed to interpret their sneaking/hiding noble as being ridiculous because the code support my view of those skills.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 12, 2015, 10:28:55 AM
Being batman'd is great.
The sneaky, dark clothed man says, in sirihish,
"Be seeing you."
You say, quickly, in sirihish,
"Waitijusthadonemore Krath damnit he's gone."
I love doing this with my sneakies :D
Quote from: Semper on March 12, 2015, 10:32:11 AM
Sometimes you can bend the limits on what code dictates for the sake of roleplay and context which is fine. I guess to explain why I am defending this is because that is not the 'norm', and it seems people expect it to be the norm because the code allows them to do it.
In the example of hiding in a tavern, if you are indeed allowed to use the crowd like the environment, then the code should give you that benefit. As it is however, the more people that are present in a room, the harder it is to hide, the easier it is that someone notices you. Also, the heavier equipment you are wearing, the harder it is to sneak/hide. A player can glean this from the docs. That means the code does not allow you to use the crowd to "hide", you are using the environment in a blatant way of obscuring your presence. You are crawling around, having to vary your pace to move from area to area, possibly required to fit into small spaces, etc. This is a jump in logic, but I'm going that far to make a point: the code supports one view of roleplay while not so much with the other.
So to come back around to the original poster's comment, how someone views what sneaking/hiding is would definitely make a difference on how someone should react when they see a noble sneaking/hiding. If sneaking and hiding is "walking with silent steps" and "blending into the crowd", then its perfectly alright for a silk wearing noble to use these skills in the social public (because there are lots of noise and there are other nobles/merchants walking around). However if the code says sneaking is "using the environment to get around unnoticed", and hiding as "using the environment to mask your presence", then it makes no sense that a noble would slink around like that.
I could imagine them crawling on their hands and knees behind a table, hiding behind a curtain, skirting around from behind someone's area of view, walking in the shadow of a low-hanging roof, etc, and so long as the noble's player does not semote and show that they are doing something contrary to how I view the code, I am allowed to interpret their sneaking/hiding noble as being ridiculous because the code support my view of those skills.
The code doesn't fucking tell me that my slashing weapon isn't being used to stab somene, so the code is not going to tell me how I'm using sneak/hide. Fuck that.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 12, 2015, 10:47:23 AM
The code doesn't fucking tell me that my slashing weapon isn't being used to stab somene, so the code is not going to tell me how I'm using sneak/hide. Fuck that.
That reinforces one of my points, which is that "sometimes you can bend the limits on what code dictates for the sake of roleplay and context ... that is not the 'norm', and it seems people expect it to be the norm because the code allows them to do it."
If someone consistently uses a slashing weapon as a piercing weapon because ("the code doesn't tell me otherwise"), and you aren't emoting to show that you are using the code in a fashion it isn't intended, you're not playing the game as it should be played. In a sense, that's "cheating".
That said, it seems you're offended by my discussion about this... that wasn't my intention.
Quote from: Semper on March 12, 2015, 10:32:11 AM
In the example of hiding in a tavern, if you are indeed allowed to use the crowd like the environment, then the code should give you that benefit. As it is however, the more people that are present in a room, the harder it is to hide, the easier it is that someone notices you. Also, the heavier equipment you are wearing, the harder it is to sneak/hide. A player can glean this from the docs. That means the code does not allow you to use the crowd to "hide", you are using the environment in a blatant way of obscuring your presence. You are crawling around, having to vary your pace to move from area to area, possibly required to fit into small spaces, etc. This is a jump in logic, but I'm going that far to make a point: the code supports one view of roleplay while not so much with the other.
I can see where you're coming from. I will pipe up and say if you try to hide in a VNPC-populated place, the game will
literally say that you "try to blend with the crowd" or something similar. You get a coded bonus in this case (Morgenes disclosed this on the GDB in some past post). I'm pretty sure this message is still in the game.
It's true, as you say, that the more people (PCs) are present in a room, the harder it is to get away with hiding. Similarly, heavy equipment reduces your ability to hide effectively. Those are the coded facts! But I believe Morgenes (in earlier posts on steal or watch) likened a large PC presence to a particularly "tight crowd". It's a weird analogy, but it's one way to get our heads around the difference between PC and NPC/VNPC populations.
Please stop using the nuances of code to dictate how you roleplay.
Quote from: CodeMaster on March 12, 2015, 12:20:19 PM
I can see where you're coming from. I will pipe up and say if you try to hide in a VNPC-populated place, the game will literally say that you "try to blend with the crowd" or something similar. You get a coded bonus in this case (Morgenes disclosed this on the GDB in some past post). I'm pretty sure this message is still in the game.
It's true, as you say, that the more people (PCs) are present in a room, the harder it is to get away with hiding. Similarly, heavy equipment reduces your ability to hide effectively. Those are the coded facts! But I believe Morgenes (in earlier posts on steal or watch) likened a large PC presence to a particularly "tight crowd". It's a weird analogy, but it's one way to get our heads around the difference between PC and NPC/VNPC populations.
That's an example I didn't consider, and you're absolutely right in that case. I guess the only other thing I'd suggest considering is why your noble would consider blending into such a thick crowd in the first place, with smelly commoners and who knows what else? Even if it's a "hobby" as people keep using as defense, that is not a likely hobby to expect from someone pampered in silk their whole life and expected to act a certain way by Allanaki society. I agree everyone can play their character as they want, but by playing outside of the norms of code/documentation, you set a precedent that confuses other players, and threads like this one pop up (which are helpful as a discussion, not as bashing other players).
Still, it's up to the player to play how they want, and it just brings everything back to the point that if you see something that's jarring as a player, put in a player complaint or eventually play a role where you can set the example.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 12, 2015, 12:47:40 PM
Please stop using the nuances of code to dictate how you roleplay.
Aye aye aye sir
Quote from: Semper on March 12, 2015, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: CodeMaster on March 12, 2015, 12:20:19 PM
I can see where you're coming from. I will pipe up and say if you try to hide in a VNPC-populated place, the game will literally say that you "try to blend with the crowd" or something similar. You get a coded bonus in this case (Morgenes disclosed this on the GDB in some past post). I'm pretty sure this message is still in the game.
It's true, as you say, that the more people (PCs) are present in a room, the harder it is to get away with hiding. Similarly, heavy equipment reduces your ability to hide effectively. Those are the coded facts! But I believe Morgenes (in earlier posts on steal or watch) likened a large PC presence to a particularly "tight crowd". It's a weird analogy, but it's one way to get our heads around the difference between PC and NPC/VNPC populations.
That's an example I didn't consider, and you're absolutely right in that case. I guess the only other thing I'd suggest considering is why your noble would consider blending into such a thick crowd in the first place, with smelly commoners and who knows what else? Even if it's a "hobby" as people keep using as defense, that is not a likely hobby to expect from someone pampered in silk their whole life and expected to act a certain way by Allanaki society. I agree everyone can play their character as they want, but by playing outside of the norms of code/documentation, you set a precedent that confuses other players, and threads like this one pop up (which are helpful as a discussion, not as bashing other players).
Still, it's up to the player to play how they want, and it just brings everything back to the point that if you see something that's jarring as a player, put in a player complaint or eventually play a role where you can set the example.
This is exactly what I have been trying to say. If you app a noble, it would be nice to intend to play it like a noble.
There's no one way to play a noble, or anything for that matter. I really won't begrudge anyone for trying to have fun in this game, because it's not always apparent how to do that. If your advice is to think about what your character should do realistically in a situation based on their upbringing, past, and status than all I have to say is duh-doy! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMiA8AIX03Q)
Yup. That's what I'm saying.
I'm not offended, I'm annoyed that you think you're the RP police. Staff will tell people when they're wrong. It's not your job to tell people they're wrong. If I want to use thrusting attacks with my SWORD, I will use thrusting attacks with my SWORD. If I want to use a thrusting attack with my HAMMER/MACE/CLUB, I will use a thrusting attack with my HAMMER/MACE/CLUB.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 11, 2015, 09:25:54 PM
I feel like the true/false coded limitations of DIKU convinces people that sneaking thieves are skulking about like 1940s silent film burglars when they're caught on a scan.
That's so true, I can't help but laugh. Quick, translate the following to Armageddon lingo: "I noticed you failed your sneak check. *cheesy grin* I have maximized my skills, pretty cool, right?"
"You're not very good at skulking, or my eyes are just really sharp. Sucks to be you."
em offers a snarky grin.
I have to 100% agree with Saellyn.....
Its in particularly bad taste for anyone to judge the RP of a person trying to engage in surreptitious skills.
Ok, if you see someone chopping logs of wood with their bare hands - yes - that IS bad RP.
But, a nobleman trying to sneak (and failing at it) coz he codedly hasn't mastered the skill yet - is an entirely different matter.
Additionally, for someone to make a call that nobles shouldn't be sneaky at all, or, not get caught being sneaky - is just unrealistic.
Yes, we've all heard the spiel about "nobles not doing anything on their own, and getting everything done by others" .... so what? Do all noble PCs have to behave like that? Is there some sekrit documentation which gives such guidelines?
Nobles often and openly train for combat, train to learn languages - so why can't they learn to tip toe and hang in the shadows, and learn to use quick sleights of hand? Maybe they want to cheat at cards, or catch their concubines unawares.....
In my opinion, Sneak/Hide covers more than just hiding in the shadows or moving quietly. Since its the only code we have, it covers a wide range of deception and concealment. I imagine someone who sneaks into an apartment building having successfully appeared like they were supposed to be there, be it through disguise, subterfuge or social engineering. Skulking about in a city environment is only half of concealment IMO, a noble is fully capable of being "noble" and still gaining entry to places they aren't supposed to or concealing themselves.
For those of you who've seen the mini-series Shogun (or read the book, which are both fantastic btw), Lord Toranaga successfully sneaks out of Osaka Palace through deception and cleverness. Definitely a noble, albeit Japanese not Zalanthian, but I would still classify his actions as "sneak/hide" if we were to classify it using Armageddon skills.
All nobles should be the Zalanthian equivalent of Ric Flair:
(http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/002/351/755/ricflair_display_image.jpg?1340646013)
Case closed.
Way to steal my character concept.
Aren't all nobles sneaky?
Visualizing Zalanthas - Lord Fale, Master of Stealth and Subertfuge:
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii228/Saturn695/RicFlair010.jpg)
Something that's stuck with me the last few days is the response the original post got. People seem really taken aback that there there is criticism on the boards. I keep thinking about this.
I feel very strongly that we should all treat each other with respect, we should be polite and the goal of discussion should be mutual benefit, and not winning the internet. We should all try to avoid causing each other offense. And with the above in mind, I think it's good that talk about what we see in game and if it's right or wrong, or something in between. I think we all criticize other's role play. I think we all evaluate and make some subjective and ultimately objective decisions about what is good rp. I think it's important to talk about what is good rp, on the forums. It helps us to have standards, to outline those standards and hopefully collectively meet them.
Another thing I think is important is that the game world is constant. Not static, but that tradition is maintained. So, that we don't just have a big mess, we have something that we can recognize each time we log in. It's important to talk about nobles and what they should and shouldn't do. Maybe it's too broad to say they should not sneak or do sneaky things. I think that's a valid point, but if that's a valid point, then we should talk about how to and how not to use those skills, so that the standard of noble play is clearly defined.
So, I think one place to start that conversation is that there should be ic consequences for sneaking and hiding ic and failing. But that response should be tempered with the understanding that many of us sometime forget to stop sneaking or sheathe their sword. Maybe give someone an out before calling them an elf?
Probably other people have thoughts.
Quote from: wizturbo on March 13, 2015, 05:10:21 PM
Visualizing Zalanthas - Lord Fale, Master of Stealth and Subertfuge:
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii228/Saturn695/RicFlair010.jpg)
This made me laugh at my desk at work. That's not really allowed.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 13, 2015, 06:25:36 PM
Something that's stuck with me the last few days is the response the original post got. People seem really taken aback that there there is criticism on the boards. I keep thinking about this.
I feel very strongly that we should all treat each other with respect, we should be polite and the goal of discussion should be mutual benefit, and not winning the internet. We should all try to avoid causing each other offense. And with the above in mind, I think it's good that talk about what we see in game and if it's right or wrong, or something in between. I think we all criticize other's role play. I think we all evaluate and make some subjective and ultimately objective decisions about what is good rp. I think it's important to talk about what is good rp, on the forums. It helps us to have standards, to outline those standards and hopefully collectively meet them.
Another thing I think is important is that the game world is constant. Not static, but that tradition is maintained. So, that we don't just have a big mess, we have something that we can recognize each time we log in. It's important to talk about nobles and what they should and shouldn't do. Maybe it's too broad to say they should not sneak or do sneaky things. I think that's a valid point, but if that's a valid point, then we should talk about how to and how not to use those skills, so that the standard of noble play is clearly defined.
So, I think one place to start that conversation is that there should be ic consequences for sneaking and hiding ic and failing. But that response should be tempered with the understanding that many of us sometime forget to stop sneaking or sheathe their sword. Maybe give someone an out before calling them an elf?
Probably other people have thoughts.
Sneaking and hiding are not creeping around like a cartoon villain.
Sneaking and hiding are not creeping around like a cartoon villain.
Sneaking and hiding are not creeping around like a cartoon villain.
People were taken aback by the OP because it is a complaint directed at a very small subset of PCs currently in game. There are what... Less than ten noble PCs? And fewer than half of them probably utilize hide and sneak?
So those 2-3 players probably feel personally targeted by a public complaint thread about how they choose to play.
I assumed she referred to the larger set of people who have done so since she's played.
Also, I certainly don't want those two or three people to feel insulted or attacked. I have no idea who they are. I'm not playing enough to see them, these last few months. But if they are playing in a way that can be improved (if) maybe this is an opportunity to consider. They may consider and decide they're doing great. They may consider and realize they're not the target. They may consider and realize OP referred to a moment when they'd forgotten to stop sneaking and that the criticism doesn't really apply to them. They may consider and decide that they could do better.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 13, 2015, 06:25:36 PM
And with the above in mind, I think it's good that talk about what we see in game and if it's right or wrong, or something in between. I think we all criticize other's role play. I think we all evaluate and make some subjective and ultimately objective decisions about what is good rp. I think it's important to talk about what is good rp, on the forums. It helps us to have standards, to outline those standards and hopefully collectively meet them.
There's healthy criticism on the boards all the time (and sometimes unhealthy criticism). For a visceral example, here's a helpful set of critiques by Nyr that I refer to sometimes, http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47035.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47035.0.html) -- check out his reproach of publicly bashing figures of authority, for instance, which I think is related to what's being discussed in
this thread.
So my impression is that this brand of content is worth discussing and having on the GDB... and is maybe even what this particular subforum is for.
That's why I was a little taken aback by how people were taken aback on this
particular issue. I mean, I can speculate: maybe someone in particular was being put on the spot, like RogueGunSlinger suggested? Lizzie also pointed out that nobles are perhaps too specific a group of people to target with these kinds of critiques -- maybe we should be talking about affluential public figures as a whole? I also think the players of nobles are really 'giving' a lot to the game in terms of leadership and coordinating with staff, so maybe there is this inclination to treat them with a bit of extra respect and not poopoo their roleplay the way you would a karmaless pickpocket's -- that might have been part of it too.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 13, 2015, 06:25:36 PM
So, I think one place to start that conversation is that there should be ic consequences for sneaking and hiding ic and failing. But that response should be tempered with the understanding that many of us sometime forget to stop sneaking or sheathe their sword. Maybe give someone an out before calling them an elf?
I mean, they're a noble, so unless you're a family member of a noble house that outranks this noble, what can you possibly say to them IC? :)
I'd be disinclined to give them an OOCly-motivated "out" though. The nature of this game is that it is ICly unforgiving. How many people have died from unintentionally triggering the crim-code? Falling down a hole? Attacking their mount? Running out of stamina because they went the wrong direction? Eating a hot pepper? :) You done goof, you done goofed.
Quote from: CodeMaster on March 13, 2015, 07:08:42 PM
I'd be disinclined to give them an OOCly-motivated "out" though. The nature of this game is that it is ICly unforgiving. How many people have died from unintentionally triggering the crim-code? Falling down a hole? Attacking their mount? Running out of stamina because they went the wrong direction? Eating a hot pepper? :) You done goof, you done goofed.
I see both sides of this. You're right.
And yet... sometimes it's hard for me not to give some leeway when I can. On the other hand, I've been the person who made a newbie quit because I didn't realize they were a newbie and I treated them as I found them. (I felt shitty about that though.) I've also had pc's thrown in the arena for forgetting to sheathe weapons and wished I'd been given some leeway.
All that said, you're still right.
I'm going to post this again, just because I like Barz's post.
Quote from: Patuk on March 12, 2015, 04:13:44 PM
So I've been noticing this trend where lots of people are having their elves ride mounts and I think-
STOP TELLING PEOPLE HOW TO RP ASSHOLE GOSH WHAT IF THEY FEEL BAD
Sometimes the gdb is going to.be critical of people. Sometimes people will talk about you, other times they'll talk about things you've never seen happen. Sometimes the criticism is right, sometimes it is wrong. You can engage in and debate with criticism just fine, and that's okay, but going 'dude they gonna feel bad' or 'bro wtf you can't tell me how to rp' doesn't foster good discussions, it stifles them.
As the direct target of a recent GDB complaint/posts, I literally didn't care what anyone complaining had to say. I cannot, however, speak for others in this case.
Wait, so you were the elf dude riding that sunback?
GODDAMMIT METEKILLOT SON OF A BITCH
It's well within the rules of the GDB to constructively criticize RP, otherwise there wouldn't be a "Roleplaying Discussion" forum. The only time this becomes an issue is when the criticism crosses the line into vague complaining about a PC's actions, in which case a player complaint is the better option.
This thread is really toeing that line. The only reason this thread is still open is that people have spoken for and against the OP, and created a discussion around it. This doesn't constitute dogpiling on a small handful of PCs... yet. Hopefully it will remain that way.
That being said, please stay on topic. If you wish to discuss the nature of criticism of other players on the GDB, feel free to make a new thread for it, and I will move what's here into that thread.
Taking lead from Nergal's post - I'm thinking this thread has met it's natural end....
However, the OP's topic is definitely something to think about.
If someone starts a Player Collaboration topic about - An OOC guide to playing a Noble PC - we could all contribute and come up with ideas.
Of particular note:
For those noble PCs who haven't opted for any skill bumps, and have (as is the case in most cases) a mundane Guild and Sub or Ext - and assuming that they aren't one of the few who take to the sands and start killing scrabs/raptors/tembos - how would they go about using/raising their starting level skills. How would they portray that they aren't newbies (despite not having mastered their skill sets). How would they come across while using a skill that they probably should not use or should not have to use (i.e. get someone else to do it for them), just because they need to branch it to get the next skill? How should the noble PC behave when s/he wants to spar with you, and he's supposed to be a Warlord or a Commander of the XYZ Unit - but his/her skills are too low to begin with? How should observers behave/react in such situations?
We can add in suggestions / ideas about all sorts of sub-topics. Interacting with other nobles, templars, NPC slaves/guards, shopkeepers, in public areas etc.
When would it be worth your while to use your skill bump points, and for which skills would this be appropriately suited.
If we can come up with some constructive answers - I'm sure such jarring incidences will be few and far in between.
The root of this problem probably lies in the fact that the role play guide on how to play a noble (or fancy character) in either city-state was not converted to the new armageddon.org website? I looked every where and couldn't find it, so if someone knows where that is, that would be an awesome place to start.
I think for players who have been playing Armageddon for a while, they would remember there being a set of documentation that helped guide players in how to play these kinds of roles, whether you were a Chosen Noble in Tuluk, or a Noble in Allanak. There were topics of how to play a servant, proper etiquette, etc, and so when I (and probably the OP and others) were addressing how "things were done two years ago" or so, most likely they were referring to a culture of players who had a pretty good guide on this kind of stuff already available to them on the website.
I had been writing all my posts assuming that documentation was available to players already. I think that makes a huuuuge difference in how nobles are perceived to be played. IF the staff actually left those out on purpose (and so these kinds of boundaries in noble role play for each city state were dropped intentionally), then it makes perfect sense that some of our posts sound like we're being RP police. But I'm of the opinion that those documents should have been transferred?
That makes me want to pull me hair out... I think one of the greatest strengths of Armageddon and the reason which pulled me into the game in the first place was richness of the details in the world, and the fact that there were unique societies in which you could really play a deep, believable character. I think we really need to pull together and try to clean up the new armageddon website? I still get lost trying to find certain information, or reference a particular help file.
Quote from: Incognito on March 14, 2015, 04:31:18 AM
Of particular note:
For those noble PCs who haven't opted for any skill bumps, and have (as is the case in most cases) a mundane Guild and Sub or Ext - and assuming that they aren't one of the few who take to the sands and start killing scrabs/raptors/tembos - how would they go about using/raising their starting level skills. How would they portray that they aren't newbies (despite not having mastered their skill sets). How would they come across while using a skill that they probably should not use or should not have to use (i.e. get someone else to do it for them), just because they need to branch it to get the next skill? How should the noble PC behave when s/he wants to spar with you, and he's supposed to be a Warlord or a Commander of the XYZ Unit - but his/her skills are too low to begin with? How should observers behave/react in such situations?
The reason why the old documentation on playing a Noble character would help is because it answers all these questions pretty much. In those documents, the role of a noble is portrayed as a social role. As a leader, you were to rely on your minions to do your dirty work, or gather information, or entertain your guests, etc. In this way, a good noble could really brighten up and engage all kinds of players. One good noble could probably keep a few PCs busy, but having several nobles around would generate all kinds of plots if they ended up using the same group of social PCs. A great post to read is Vanth's role play guide to playing a Noble Character. Not once (I think?) does she ever refer to a noble as someone who is shaping their coded skills up,
because coded skills were not necessary to play one.
I had a strong reaction to some of the posts on this thread because it seemed the idea of a noble character that I had from the past was being forgotten. An Allanaki noble sneaking around and doing mundane things which a servant should have been doing for them defeats the purpose of having minions.
If the Noble can handle mundane things on their own, the value of a minion diminishes. And I realize sometimes good minions are very lacking, and so this is probably why some slack was given in these regards, but
if every new player considers this the new norm, then what difference is there between a noble and a commoner PC besides greater social standing?
[underlined for emphasis since this is my main concern]
You mean this?
http://old.armageddon.org/general/noble.html
Just replace www with old when navigating around.
Quote from: Delusion on March 14, 2015, 11:45:07 AM
You mean this?
http://old.armageddon.org/general/noble.html
Just replace www with old when navigating around.
Yeah! [But how do you access these websites from the new website?] [Also, the individual links don't work (probably broken now).] It would be great if we could transfer these into the new website and clean it up so it is more intuitive for players to find.
Some parts that I found helpful, though not perfectly applicable to PC Nobles (since they can't actually adjust city-wide taxes):
"Nobles have two types of power: economic and political, which are often intertwined. Noble houses can and often do decide policy matters through the means of the Senate, and also exert power in the form of affecting popular opinion, which they traditionally do through sponsoring competitions, festivals, arena matches, etc. Politics is a game of subtle influences - while the merchant houses have little say in the Senate, they do have influence over prices, both citywide as well as at the individual level. At the same time, the Senate has control over the tax rates -- so an impolitic Kadian might find their house confronted with a sudden silk tax."
The other pages on the site are great resources to look into for anyone interested in Allanaki culture.
[also: http://old.armageddon.org/general/social_mores.html ]
Quote from: Semper on March 14, 2015, 11:46:44 AM
Quote from: Delusion on March 14, 2015, 11:45:07 AM
You mean this?
http://old.armageddon.org/general/noble.html
Just replace www with old when navigating around.
Yeah! But how do you access these websites from the new website?
Many of them were never ported to the new site, so you have to go to the old. And some of the old site pages are no longer linked to the old main site page, so you have to either do a search, or know the exact URL you're looking for.
On topic: I just want to reiterate that - if the noble doesn't tell you /why/ he's being sneaky, you really don't know why. It could just be that the character thinks it's fun. Also, what I recall reading in someone else's post that should be reiterated: the sneak skill isn't exclusively for going unnoticed. If you type sneak, from walking, you get the echo that specifies that you have just slowed down your movements and are now more careful. If you're traversing a dangerous area - you might want to slow down and be more careful than usual. If you're not a very comfortable rider, you might want your mount to be slower and more careful than usual when you're riding your templar's horse from the Pyramid to the Sanctuary. If it's late at night and there's only one moon out and all you have is a glow crystal strapped to your ankle, you might want to slow down and move more carefully, so as not to trip over a beggar or a rat.
There are plenty of IC reasons to use sneak, that don't necessarily equate with "trying to be sneaky." On the other hand, even if a noble IS trying to be sneaky, it could be that he's trying to avoid notice of a templar that he has to pass on his way - maybe that templar has been trying to meet with him about some unpleasant business. And if he's not very good at sneaking, he might be trying to get better, or his character might think he's being incredibly clever and has no idea that he's failing.
In fact - it's very possible that if a noble is using the sneak skill, and failing all the time, that he doesn't even -have- the sneak skill on his skill list - and his player is making the character stand out on purpose for some IC reason (such as an eccentricity).
Quote from: Semper on March 14, 2015, 11:46:44 AM
Quote from: Delusion on March 14, 2015, 11:45:07 AM
You mean this?
http://old.armageddon.org/general/noble.html
Just replace www with old when navigating around.
Also, the individual links don't work (probably broken now).
Need to replace www with old, that's all.
Quote from: Semper on March 14, 2015, 11:38:23 AM
Quote from: Incognito on March 14, 2015, 04:31:18 AM
Of particular note:
For those noble PCs who haven't opted for any skill bumps, and have (as is the case in most cases) a mundane Guild and Sub or Ext - and assuming that they aren't one of the few who take to the sands and start killing scrabs/raptors/tembos - how would they go about using/raising their starting level skills. How would they portray that they aren't newbies (despite not having mastered their skill sets). How would they come across while using a skill that they probably should not use or should not have to use (i.e. get someone else to do it for them), just because they need to branch it to get the next skill? How should the noble PC behave when s/he wants to spar with you, and he's supposed to be a Warlord or a Commander of the XYZ Unit - but his/her skills are too low to begin with? How should observers behave/react in such situations?
The reason why the old documentation on playing a Noble character would help is because it answers all these questions pretty much. In those documents, the role of a noble is portrayed as a social role. As a leader, you were to rely on your minions to do your dirty work, or gather information, or entertain your guests, etc. In this way, a good noble could really brighten up and engage all kinds of players. One good noble could probably keep a few PCs busy, but having several nobles around would generate all kinds of plots if they ended up using the same group of social PCs. A great post to read is Vanth's role play guide to playing a Noble Character. Not once (I think?) does she ever refer to a noble as someone who is shaping their coded skills up, because coded skills were not necessary to play one.
I had a strong reaction to some of the posts on this thread because it seemed the idea of a noble character that I had from the past was being forgotten. An Allanaki noble sneaking around and doing mundane things which a servant should have been doing for them defeats the purpose of having minions. If the Noble can handle mundane things on their own, the value of a minion diminishes. And I realize sometimes good minions are very lacking, and so this is probably why some slack was given in these regards, but if every new player considers this the new norm, then what difference is there between a noble and a commoner PC besides greater social standing?
[underlined for emphasis since this is my main concern]
From the past. I have the opposite experience, because most of that old documentation is far more strictly entwined with play now than it was before, to the point that this thread even -exists- makes it different than how it was. One of my first PC's was the first PC crimson wyvern. He trained with Nikita Borsail, or rather...was -taught- by Nikita Borsail, on several occasions. My first good warrior trained with Marius Tor, who was a rather deadly fighter in his own right. Iakovitzes Tor was famous for leading his soldiers from the front and being in harm's way. My first noble, also a Tor, emphasized his preparation, and in his background, was -stationed- outside of the city with Scorpions, engaged in combat for a good portion of his early career, and only pulled back to the city to engage in politics when he'd proven he had a mind for command. Zelyne Borsail, originally a Tor, was not nearly so helpless as people assumed when she went north. I was there and assisted as a banished-turned-enslaved former soldier, Davros, when there was an assassination attempt on her. The first attempt I survived, and fought them off alongside her. The second, I died. There was a Fale whose name I've forgotten who picked locks. He'd show up in your apartment, when he wanted to meet with you. So on and so forth. This is not to say every noble needs to be skilling up. This is to say that before, there was room for nobility to do things their own way, and not have people looking at them the way this thread does, which basically seems to insinuate that there is no excuse, there is no variance, and a noble's hobbies must not be something that someone else could do, which is, as I said in my previous post, 'pushing things too far'.
From that old documentation, just about the only thing I don't see followed more closely now more than ever (and thus, made subject to scrutiny such as this) is the piece about templars NEEDING nobility. Nowadays, a templar is free to completely ignore the nobles as much as they wish, because the playerbase is used to the templarate and does not avoid them. With changes to staff and game policy, this has only gotten easier. I'm sorry, but all that documentation was written before noble-house plots consisted of 'that other noble called me a bad name, time for vengeance'. The plots were staff run or staff supported, and -real-. Noble plots today are rather...piddling, due to the very nature of how they come about and what they entail (this is not a bash on anyone. Just a simple reference to when noble plots were, at one point, epic-type plots that resulted in large clan and city wide RPTs, battles, magickal events, so on and so forth). Templars, at least, can get you involved in more things and you have some real modicum of power. Herein lies a major difference, between then and now...back then I bit, scraped, and clawed my way into service of noble houses. They were always involved in cool things. The staff running those clans were not just the advisors and administrators of today, they were...like Zalanthan dungeonmasters. They generally had -something- going on that made an overarching, larger-than-personal plot for everyone to engage in, in addition to the noble's personal goals, which often vied noble against noble within the same House, even. Borsail actually had and made PC slaves...people wanted their good graces. Oash actually had magickal research and magickal plots for its mages. Tor was building forts, expanding the empire, defending the empire, and truly set on excellence of combat. Fale has...well...I actually think Fale is one of the main houses that has improved. Before, everyone just wanted them for comedic relief, which always bugged me. There used to be entire political struggles between noble and templar alike for who had the strongest grasp on the criminal underworld and its resources. Templars fought each other for the backing of nobles, because templars needed -funding-.
Anyway, my point is...you pointed at old documentation that even then, had blatant exceptions made, as far as being a 'skill based' noble. Now, it's even harder, because those minions you're supposed to be providing for? They don't scrape, claw, and bite their way into your House the way they used to, because it has degraded. People don't do that for free food and water. They did it then because it meant involvement in things that are much harder to get rolling, at this point. All the virtual power in the game doesn't make the role more fun, and exercising power without active mediums (staff run plots and affects, and IC non-monetary currency individualized to each house) really has become a very real struggle. This isn't a call for change, or for staff run plots to return, but rather...an insight into how a non-skill-based role can transform into a skill-based one. The ability to exercise their will however they can in the absence of truly-motivated-minions, and boredom. The days of yore, even with easier access to minions, was more forgiving of that from my vantage point.
TL;DR: Nobles have a bit less of a leg up than they used to, and I think the skill-based noble mindset of today (still rare enough to be called an exception, I think) is based on the desire to try and make things happen with what they have, so...we should kinda throw them a bone, imo.
Templars still need funding, dude, they just don't need nobles for it anymore. You see how much you catch for that pair of braies in the Bazaar? Don't even need to leave the city for the silk, they sell it in a shop. Inifinite $$$ sonnnnnn
The Allanak that you mention was awesome, but also very different from Allanak in the game's current perspective, and I think the staff are trying to fix some of the issues that are inherent by eventually giving skill bumps to nobles based on merit, rather than having to grind your skills. This is to provide an enjoyable role without trampling on the documentation in the process. Nobles are meant to be out there driving plots, not grinding out their skills alone in a corner of the Nobility Quarter.
However, the larger question to consider is the role of a Noble in the current form of Armageddon. It's my opinion (and also of Armaddict's opinion it seems) that the power that a Noble can wield in the game has been been cut dramatically, and if our expectation is the same as before but does not reflect what is real, then obviously there would be problems. I think this thread is a sign of a greater problem that still has not been fully addressed.
Still, I could be wrong, and over-exaggerating a minor issue... :P
Well, I mean, if there aren't any active indie merchants around who have paid off all the assassins, you can pay off an assassin to kill some dudes for you, as a noble? Or flex your virtual power at a Templar and hope he plays along. The 'money' aspect of being a noble is absolutely peanuts in comparison to how much money everyone else can make.
Maybe we should put a cap on how many salt crystals Globulluk buys in a week and make it so you can't sell that one root from that one cave for 1 large a pop?
Make all noble robes null sneak/hide. Same goes for robe, hat, or other outer garments with bright/foppish/stylish/etc in the description.
The social power a noble wields according to documentation is still as big, if not bigger in some situations, than ever.
The ability to have a hard, tangible effect in game on other PCs without the assistance of other PCs, or staff, is nearly zero. Which is another reason I won't begrudge a noble who sneaks sometimes, since the only other coded skill he probably exercises is listen, and contact.
I kinda wish when you rolled up a noble you had a set of skills to choose from based on what you would have been taught..and branch out like normal pcs. Maybe get bumps to the stuff your house would want you good at with some room for personal flavor.
Quote from: Bast on March 27, 2015, 03:10:47 AM
I kinda wish when you rolled up a noble you had a set of skills to choose from based on what you would have been taught..and branch out like normal pcs. Maybe get bumps to the stuff your house would want you good at with some room for personal flavor.
Why?
Nobles' power rests far beyond simple skills.
Quote from: Down Under on March 27, 2015, 03:45:15 AM
Quote from: Bast on March 27, 2015, 03:10:47 AM
I kinda wish when you rolled up a noble you had a set of skills to choose from based on what you would have been taught..and branch out like normal pcs. Maybe get bumps to the stuff your house would want you good at with some room for personal flavor.
Why?
Nobles' power rests far beyond simple skills.
For fun!
Between guilds, subguilds, and extended subguilds, I don't really see how you would have a hard time accurately representing your noble's skills in the existing system.
Quote from: valeria on March 27, 2015, 11:08:23 AM
Between guilds, subguilds, and extended subguilds, I don't really see how you would have a hard time accurately representing your noble's skills in the existing system.
It's not the fact of getting the skills, it's getting them skilled enough to be anywhere useful really. Sure, you can drop all your skill bumps into a few skills, but it's not the same.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 27, 2015, 09:00:53 AM
Quote from: Down Under on March 27, 2015, 03:45:15 AM
Quote from: Bast on March 27, 2015, 03:10:47 AM
I kinda wish when you rolled up a noble you had a set of skills to choose from based on what you would have been taught..and branch out like normal pcs. Maybe get bumps to the stuff your house would want you good at with some room for personal flavor.
Why?
Nobles' power rests far beyond simple skills.
For fun!
Oh no I agree with you completely Down Under I just think Nobles should be pooling from a different skill set...and in my humble opinion..which I know is just my opinion..there are just some skills nobles have no business with.
My noble was a young brat who lived in a really big house. Also, I'd like to point out that a lot of adults never really grow up, their bodies do. My nooble snuck about but only at home.
I read a lot of fiction literature and in plenty of it speaking at a 'young lordling' POV it's practically a trope that they get into mischief skull-duggering about and infuriating the scullery-maids with their shenanigans. There's lots of reasons why a noble bratling would find the cause and the means to develop a penchant and skillset for sneaking and misdirection.