Spurred by a discussion here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,31255.39500.html), I thought it'd be helpful to discuss how you feel about whoring on Zalanthas.
A long time ago I was speaking to a now former staff about whoring on Zalanthas. It was one of the aspects of the game world I just couldn't understand, how it fit into the setting, how my character would/should feel about whoring in general. I'll have to paraphrase him because it's been such a long time but he said whoring would
NOT be ostracized or in any way looked down upon on Zalanthas. Why?
He said that we lived in a society that was so okay with sex, that values it enough, that Noble Houses breed a specific type of slave JUST for it. That a whore who associates with Nobles can be elevated in status to concubine and that we don't know how many concubines started out as whores but that it'd be a fair assumption that at least some of them do. That they'd be subject to the social hierarchy rules of whatever place they were living and that a rinthi elf whore in Allanak could never be on the same level as even a rinthi human whore.
I bring the topic up because every time I see a whore in game or play one myself, I all too often witness characters use whore as an insult even after they've been educated of the normalcy and respectability of said profession, I've encountered the characters who'd love to throw sid their way but can't because their mates forbid it (while anyone other than the whore would be okay) and you know it's real world mentality when rinthers are using the word whore like the profession somehow elevates
their station.
Quote from: Irulan on January 08, 2014, 09:40:27 AM
Here is an old thread about whores that brings up some interesting topics. We just spent weeks debating rape on the gdb, a whore topic actually sounds kinda refreshing after that.
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,12391.0.html
I obviously disagree with sarahjc despite her good points on why the word should be used derogatorily. I think the use of it in a derogatory manner should be solely appropriate and if you're a 2-sid breed rinthi whore who spreads diseased, sure, THEN I would probably call you a filthy disease ridden whore but I'd also add a shame to your profession. I wouldn't automatically assume that you ARE a disease ridden whore just cause you're a whore.
I think it's just another way of making a living in a world where that's really hard to do. I don't think they would be judged poorly just for the job itself. Those who have the gifts or skill to attract wealthier clients would be admired. Those who have to service the dregs of society would be looked down on and probably not survive very well or very long.
There's a wide spectrum that the title 'prostitute' covers and how a PC is judged should depend on where they fall in that spectrum.
I don't see why using "whore" as a derogatory term would be off limits. As you pointed out, they AREN'T concubines, they are whores.
They aren't courtesans or anything else "fancy". They are whores. They are spooge receptacles who make their living laying on their backs or on their knees. This isn't exactly a high-skill profession that demands a lot of respect in a world where ONLY might is right.
Now, the day people start using "concubine" or "courtesan" as an insult, is the day I would have an issue with this. Those are proven professional entertainers who are obviously so good at their craft they have earned respect through wealth/political means.
Whore is the Runner rank of the sex worker industry. Runner is not in general a glorified position. Neither is whore.
Zalanthas isn't a world of moral justification. Zalanthas is a world where your only value is your ability to inflict harm on other people or prevent the infliction of harm on other people, be that through physical might, wealth, or political influence, and your typical whore has none of these things.
In fact, most "whores" you see in game, even in a virtual sense, are only "whores" because it is a no-skill job that does not require them to have any of the merits that would otherwise afford them stations of power or respect. They do the one trade that they are good at, laying on their backs or being on their knees.
Now, the day I see the hardcore warrior whore who can bring the pain to gith hordes, and is ALSO a whore, is the day I treat them with the same respect I would show every other hardcore warrior.
It has very little to do with "whore" being a bad thing, and a lot more to do with "whore" being what it is. The typical profession of those beings who can't or won't do anything beyondd being a spooge receptacle. That may sound awful, but is the truth. Most people only whore in Zalanthas because they lack the ability to do other highly skilled trades.
So when people say, "Oh, that's just some dirty whore." They aren't saying, "Flog them and stone them." They are saying, "They don't have any other skills, so they whore, and they aren't good enough at it to get above whore rank in the profession."
So, I agree with these opinions from the recent RAT thread:
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on January 08, 2014, 04:54:02 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on January 08, 2014, 04:35:35 AM
Your respect follows the level of the people you fuck and how much money you make.
^^^
A rinth rat kanking everything with a pulse would probably be snickered at, shunned a little, etc; but not because of her profession. More because of how she goes about it. Kind of like the used car lot mechanic of whores.
Your normal everyday whores are probably not looked down on any, as whoring is simply another job that men and women partake in to get by. Calling someone a whore seems to be a choice insult I've seen a lot in game, and it's a bit cringeworthy to read, considering it wouldn't really be considered an insult. It'd be like calling someone a bartender on Earth.
Your cleaner, more picky whores who work the well-to-do field, and aren't really concubines, are probably seen with a bit more respect than the others. The bond a man or woman can potentially form with an influential client might even work in their favor socially, so long as they keep said clients on good terms. Insulting one of these types for their profession should probably draw some odd looks for onlookers.
In the old thread (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,12391.0.html) that's already been cited (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,31255.msg796628.html#msg796628), the inimitable Angela Christine said much the same thing, and I agree with her too:
Quote from: Angela Christine on February 01, 2005, 12:29:47 AM
I think prostitute is equivilent to mercenary or laborer.
A low-class, Unskilled freelance worker with poor training and equipment who hires himself out by the day or the hour is very low status. He has no loyalty, no sponser, and tomorrow he could be working for your enemies. This applies regardless of whether he is a sex worker, a ditch digger or a sellsword. A 'rinthi prostitute, day laborer, or mercenary is very low status and has little chance of gaining much status. These people may take in laundry or do other odd jobs as well. One such freelance worker might occasionally work as a day laborer, a prostitute and a mercenary, depending on what work you can find on a given day. (A PC who works some days as a obsidian miner, another day foraging for salt, a third day weaving crude baskets, on the fourth gathers rocks, and on the fifth answers the call to go fight in a big battle as cannon fodder for the templarate might fall into this "class" of worker).
A step-up from there you have Professionals. The are reasonably well trained and have adequate equipment to do the job. They usually work only in their chosen proffesion, going out to gather branches or salt because your regular buisness is a little slow would be embarassing. You have proffessional mercenaries in the T'zai Byn and other mercenary companies, and soldier/guards in Kurac and other merchant houses would probably be considered to be at this level as well (although those organizations may consider their own workers at a higher level). Apprentice and journeman level crafters might fall in as labourers at this level, along with construction workers and such. A prostitute who has reasonably good clothes and uses lotions and things to smell nice would fall in here, as would one in the permanent employ of Kurac or a particular tavern. Many commoners are at this level.
The you have Sponsered Proffesionals who are affilated with high status organizations or are highly skilled employees of medium stuts organizations. Most master crafters would fall in here. The guard in a noble house are sponsered proffesionals. Most commoners will not look down on these folks. Employees of a high-class brothel might fit in here. The main thing that seperates them from the catagories below is that they do have loyalty to a particular person or organization, and that person or organization is presumed to guarentee their good behavior and take responsibility if they behave baddly.
Finally you have Elite workers. They may be employed by a noble house, a merchant house, or self employed. Nearly any organization would be happy to hire them. A silk-clad prostitute who charges hundreds of 'sids per night (and is worth every penny) fits in here. She knows stuff, not just sex stuff, but how to be an engaging conversationalist, how to stroke an ego and make those who hire her feel good about themselves, and how to fit in durring a formal noble ball or a casual night at the Bard's barrel.
Basically the fact that you are a sex worker, a labourer or a sellsword has very little to do with your social status. The definineing points are how good you are at what you do, where you work, and who you work for.
All that said, a big part of the problem is the term "whore." That word is a RL pejorative. The word is fraught with tons of RL meaning beyond just neutrally meaning "sex worker." I don't think the players playing this game will stop looking down on whores IC'ly unless a less OOC'ly derogatory word is used to describe sex workers IC'ly. So my proposed solution is actually the same solution that I proposed back in 2005 in that old thread:
Quote from: Red Ranger on January 31, 2005, 03:38:17 PM
I feel that this question could be answered to the satisfaction of most people on either "side" if we distinguish between whores; we can look down on, tolerate, and respect whores all at the same time.
At one end of the spectrum are the toothless 'Rinthis that smell like a gutter, and at the other end are the perfumed and exclusive whores to the nobility, the ones that are pampered and may even have some power and influence. What I suggest is that new terms be coined for the various levels in the Prostitute Continuum. If Eskimos have 100 words for snow, shouldn't Zalanthans have 100 words for whore? For instance, the pox-ridden 'Rinthi whores that will do their thing for a sip of brackish water could be called "Ratlies," while the working class whores could be called "Geemsas," and the upper class "courtesans" could be called "Chalyas." In this example, the word "ratli" would be an insult, but the word "chalya" would be something to fear or to aspire to.
Another factor that is perpetuating the RL disdain for whores into the IC realm is that, IMO, a lot of RP around mudsex perpetuates other RL norms around sex, as I've mentioned before (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,43552.msg685463.html#msg685463):
Quote from: Red Ranger
Another problem I have with mudsex as practiced on Armageddon is in my experience it typically plays out in one of two scenarios: 1) female PC propositioned by male PC or 2) female PC using mudsex as a means to manipulate male PC (and I suppose both do coexist). Both of these things are fine per se, and can be perfectly appropriate IC'ly. My problem is when 1) and 2) are the vast majority of mudsex scenarios that are played out in-game, because those two scenarios are the ones that predominate in RL and which reinforce the stereotypical RL sexual roles of males being sexually dominant in 1) and females acting as the sexual gatekeeper in 2). This is a problem because there are no gender specific roles or social differences in Zalanthas (http://old.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html), so constantly seeing those two specific scenarios played out to the exclusion of all others really starts to erode my immersion even without me playing the female PC getting constantly propositioned for sex. IMO it comes across as the playerbase ignoring the gameworld.
...
So, my answer is... more conscientious mudsex RP.
...
Better yet, get your mudsex on by making those male PCs that sleep their way to the top as a sexual gatekeeper getting goodies and protection from the more powerful female PC, by making those male PC prostitutes, and by making those female PCs that are sexually domineering too.
TL;DR: the IC language and RP surrounding prostitution and mudsex perpetuates RL norms about both that are inappropriate IC'ly. We the players have it in our power to change both the language and the RP.
So get out there and be the change, you sex worker PCs!
edit: typo corrected for clarity
Edited my post above a bit to make it make more sense.
I think the recent rape ban shows just how good people are at not blindly copying RL morals into Zalanthas.
Of course, no stigma resting on being a whore doesn't quite have the same emotional level of stress, so here's to hoping this getting better at least.
Prostitution is something that should be so commonplace in Allanak or Tuluk that you see whores every day. Not just one whore a day, but like, a dozen. Though diseases and such are known about, you'd be hard-pressed to find sufferers of such things, suggesting that the rate of such disease is low. Additionally, the rate of death by other causes -- starvation, dehydration, and violence -- is so high that these diseases would have a hard time spreading. It's when people are thriving and living longer that diseases even have a chance to spread in great numbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshiwara
Japan's history of prostitution spanning the Edo period in particular is well recorded thanks to the higher literacy rate of that time. Yuukaku, or "red light districts," were places where female (and also male) prostitutes could both be purchased easily. They would be on display publicly. All ranking members of society would visit these districts, from Samurai to regional lords to commoners. Pretty much everybody in Japan who knew anything knew about its existence. It would have up to 3000 working prostitutes at a time.
Prostitution in this period was not an easy job. STI's, particularly syphilis, would kill many. Failed abortions would kill more, and though there was a legal system with written contracts for brothels to hire out women, many would die before their contracts were completed, or others would whore forever because of debts incurred.
The preponderance of STI's in this period is likely attributable to all of the whores being put in one place, an ignorance of how STI's are transmitted, the incredible skill of geisha in hiding their illness, and the sharing of customers among so many prostitutes.
The realities of prostitution were swept under the rug and hidden from the customer base. Syphilis and dying whores were bad for business. Popular works of fiction about prostitutes written in this era, kind of like romance novels, functioned as advertisements for supporting red light district business, and didn't include the gruesome details of disease and so on.
The bottom line, though, is that nowhere in any of the extensive documentation of prostitution of Japan prior to America's influence in the Meiji period was there any shunning of prostitutes. Sadly, some of this was likely due to enforced ignorance of the realities of prostitution, but that's how the business thrived.
(just thought that would be an interesting comparison)
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,39003.0.html
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 11:29:28 AM
I don't see why using "whore" as a derogatory term would be off limits. As you pointed out, they AREN'T concubines, they are whores.
They aren't courtesans or anything else "fancy". They are whores. They are spooge receptacles who make their living laying on their backs or on their knees.
Your post betrays your RL biases influencing what you're trying to peddle as a clear eyed Zalanthan IC perspective. A Zalanthan wouldn't immediately think "whore = spooge receptacle" for a variety of reasons, a big one being that Zalanthans wouldn't assume, like you seem to do, that sex workers are primarily female or that sex workers primarily engage in receptive sex from men. There are no gender roles in Zalanthas.
IMO, in Zalanthas sex work is a trade like any other and there's nothing inherently inferior about it compared to other work. If you can't explain why a Zalanthan would look down on a sex worker without resorting to RL biases that explicitly don't exist in Zalanthas, then you're fatally undermining your position.
Quote from: Red Ranger on January 08, 2014, 12:08:05 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 11:29:28 AM
I don't see why using "whore" as a derogatory term would be off limits. As you pointed out, they AREN'T concubines, they are whores.
They aren't courtesans or anything else "fancy". They are whores. They are spooge receptacles who make their living laying on their backs or on their knees.
Your post betrays your RL biases influencing what you're trying to peddle as a clear eyed Zalanthan IC perspective. A Zalanthan wouldn't immediately think "whore = spooge receptacle" for a variety of reasons, a big one being that Zalanthans wouldn't assume, like you seem to do, that sex workers are primarily female or that sex workers primarily engage in receptive sex from men. There are no gender roles in Zalanthas.
IMO, in Zalanthas sex work is a trade like any other and there's nothing inherently inferior about it compared to other work. If you can't explain why a Zalanthan would look down on a sex worker without resorting to RL biases that explicitly don't exist in Zalanthas, then you're fatally undermining your position.
Exactly. The term whore should be no more insulting than the word mercenary or salter, grebber. That's my point, not that the distinctions between the level of class with which one whores should be removed but that they should be added to the distinction. Who's smarter? The whore who sucks a mini-templar once a day to get some sid or the salter who breaks his back to get that sid? It's about choice and in some places a whore might not have a choice and be the lowest form, but in ten years when that rinthi has fucked enough rats to get enough for a place of his own and gotten some savvy, sucked his way up the social ladder, you might not even know where he started unless he wants you to. I'm not saying you shouldn't use the term whore derogatorily, I'm saying don't treat Zalanthan whore with a real world mentality.
Some questions to maybe ask yourself are these:
1) If it's legal and sanctioned on Zalanthas and they're not being arrested for breaking the law, why would you look down on the profession in general.
2) Why is it that having sex for sid, something that is not really okay here in real life with very few exceptions, bothersome to my character and is it really bothersome to my character or is it bothersome to me?
3) Why is whoring any different than a mercenary or guard (I won't use 'warrior' like Dman did because that's not really a profession on Zalanthas, it's a class) or salter or grebber?
Edited to remove the 4, there shouldn't have been a 4!
Grebber is a real profession because you use both hands in the hope that you'll be able to extract a salty product of sort at the end of your manual labor and trade said labor in exchange for some 'sids after the deed is done.
Whores are more fun with the shame attached. I know it's not in the docs, but that's how I see it. just like doing spice is more fun in Nak than in Tuluk.
Quote from: Malken on January 08, 2014, 01:27:10 PM
Grebber is a real profession because you use both hands in the hope that you'll be able to extract a salty product of sort at the end of your manual labor and trade said labor in exchange for some 'sids after the deed is done.
Trust me, Malken, when I tell you that you have to use both hands in whoring too.
Quote from: spicemustflow on January 08, 2014, 01:34:17 PM
Whores are more fun with the shame attached. I know it's not in the docs, but that's how I see it. just like doing spice is more fun in Nak than in Tuluk.
Sure.. in REAL life. There should be no shame in whoring on Zalanthas unless say, you started out as a 50 sid whore and suck at it (pun intended) so badly that you end up a 10 sid whore up on Hathor's. That's personal shame.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 12:33:34 PM
Some questions to maybe ask yourself are these:
1) If it's legal and sanctioned on Zalanthas and they're not being arrested for breaking the law, why would you look down on the profession in general.
2) Why is it that having sex for sid, something that is not really okay here in real life with very few exceptions, bothersome to my character and is it really bothersome to my character or is it bothersome to me?
3) Why is whoring any different than a mercenary or guard (I won't use 'warrior' like Dman did because that's not really a profession on Zalanthas, it's a class) or salter or grebber?
1) Because it's a no-skill job. Why does society look down on McDonald's workers? It's a no-skill job. Seriously - Desertman is in the right here. Whores, at their base levels, are just holes to use. Sure, if they're good they'll be more respected, but being a whore isn't a great job and should never be treated as an aide position. I treat grebbers with the same enmity I treat whores with.
2) Rape is banned for the same reason. Go read that topic.
3) Because being a mercenary or a guard takes skill, dedication, constant physical training. A salter and a grebber both go out into the middle of the sands, something any sane person would never do, and ply life. A whore stays home, lays on her back, and has someone else do what they want with her slit. (or in the male equivalent that you never see IG, with their bunghole/cock)
Thank you BCW.
Me being me, it is easy to say, "Desertman is just a sexist A-Hole, that is why he has his point of view."
I have seen a few well played male prostitutes in game. Usually they are comical, but, I treat them the same way.
(Who was the guy who walked around wearing the dress and heels and with the big bushy beard? I laughed so hard. You were epic.)
My point isn't that "the womenz are teh horez" (and if you say anything similar, you are just undermining your own position), my point is, it's a no-skill trade plied by people who have no skills, which is why they are in a no-skill trade, and they are looked down on for being garbage who can't do a real job.
In Zalanthas, might is right, nothing says, "I have no might." like having to resort to a no-skill trade because you aren't capable of better.
You get respect when you earn respect in Zalanthas.
This just happens to be a profession, that FOR THE MOST PART, that garners zero respect, because everyone knows why you are doing it, which is almost always because you can't do better.
There are exceptions to the rule. Highly successful high end prostitutes in Zalanthas would not be called "whore" in a derogatory manner, wouldn't be treated as such, and would actually be highly sought after and respected for plying their trade in such a way as to have obtained social and material influence. This just isn't the norm, I'm not going to roleplay like it is.
I don't see commoners look down on, say, shit-scraping in-game. Shit-scraping would be your whoring equivalent. Cotton-picking and clay-digging are also no-skill jobs that aren't looked down on.
Food for thought.
I assume that a majority of vNPCs are engaged in manual labour or domestic servitude which is below the levels even accessible to PCs.
Just to clarify, I don't run around roleplaying that whores should be scorned and flogged and stoned to death.
I am the guy who roleplays that whores are extremely common place. I just roleplay that their position doesn't garner them any respect, because they are in a low-end no-skill trade.
When I see a guy who does nothing but scrape poo for a living because he can't do any better, he gets treated the same way.
Shit-scraper and whore would be "equal" derogatory terms in my book. Both no-skill, low might, low respect positions in society.
"Shit scrapin' whore!" would be a bonus. ;)
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 08, 2014, 02:17:25 PM
I don't see commoners look down on, say, shit-scraping in-game. Shit-scraping would be your whoring equivalent. Cotton-picking and clay-digging are also no-skill jobs that aren't looked down on.
Food for thought.
I do. I played a cotton-picker once who -only- cotton picked. He was looked down on.
I make it a personal duty to look down on cotton pickers, clay grebbers, shit shovelers, and any other type of job like that in the city.
Another point, I have seen a lot of people who roleplay exactly the way Shaleah has pointed out.
But, I have also seen a lot of people who roleplay trying to "White Knight" every whore that comes along to the point it makes it hard for them to play a dirty mangy whore, which is what they want to play.
I can't count the number of times I have seen that "rinthi whore" trying to "be saved" by another Gaj hero looking to "take her away from all of this", and he just met her. (I say her because it has happened to always be dame whores.)
If they are TRYING to play a dirty rinthi whore who is the scum of society, let them. It is what they want to do, and it is usually pretty obvious it is the role they are shooting for/enjoying.
Food for thought from the other end of "How they should be treated".
Quote from: bcw81 on January 08, 2014, 02:03:14 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 12:33:34 PM
Some questions to maybe ask yourself are these:
1) If it's legal and sanctioned on Zalanthas and they're not being arrested for breaking the law, why would you look down on the profession in general.
2) Why is it that having sex for sid, something that is not really okay here in real life with very few exceptions, bothersome to my character and is it really bothersome to my character or is it bothersome to me?
3) Why is whoring any different than a mercenary or guard (I won't use 'warrior' like Dman did because that's not really a profession on Zalanthas, it's a class) or salter or grebber?
1) Because it's a no-skill job. Why does society look down on McDonald's workers? It's a no-skill job. Seriously - Desertman is in the right here. Whores, at their base levels, are just holes to use. Sure, if they're good they'll be more respected, but being a whore isn't a great job and should never be treated as an aide position. I treat grebbers with the same enmity I treat whores with.
2) Rape is banned for the same reason. Go read that topic.
3) Because being a mercenary or a guard takes skill, dedication, constant physical training. A salter and a grebber both go out into the middle of the sands, something any sane person would never do, and ply life. A whore stays home, lays on her back, and has someone else do what they want with her slit. (or in the male equivalent that you never see IG, with their bunghole/cock)
1) Whoring is a skill based advancement job. If you're good it doesn't matter where you start. McDonald's is skilled labor, it's just labor that has little call for personal pride. No one said treat it like an aide position, I personally said don't treat it with out of character mindset. On Zalanthas SEX is a job like any other, above raiders and thieves for sure (in Allanak at least) and worthy of not only their own "exclusive shop" in a certain part of the known but visible every day. Whores are their lowest, worst levels are just holes to use. That I can't disagree with. But that's individual to the character NOT the profession.
2) Do not equate whoring to rape. That's ludicrous.
3) I disagree. Being a mercenary or a guard takes a weapon and to call yourself one, or in Allanak's instance joining a mercenary company. Being a GOOD mercenary takes skill, dedication and constant physical training. A whore puts his/her life in danger every single client without exception, when a salter and a grebber go out into the middle of the sands, it's a game of chance. You might get some critters/raiders, you might not. Until and IF a whore gets to have a regular he/she knows he/she can trust, it's way more dangerous and vulnerable therefor whores have to be smarter.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 02:08:28 PM
This just happens to be a profession, that FOR THE MOST PART, that garners zero respect, because everyone knows why you are doing it, which is almost always because you can't do better.
That's a real world mentality. Not a Zalanthan mentality.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 02:08:28 PM
There are exceptions to the rule. Highly successful high end prostitutes in Zalanthas would not be called "whore" in a derogatory manner, wouldn't be treated as such, and would actually be highly sought after and respected for plying their trade in such a way as to have obtained social and material influence. This just isn't the norm, I'm not going to roleplay like it is.
But they ARE is my point and shouldn't be because of real world definitions, the definitions should be appropriate to Zalanthas. It's just not. The profession of whore itself should NOT be the equivalent of the lowest denomination of it cause the HIGHEST denomination of it is reallyyyy high. A mercenary can be a famous mercenary with many won battles but calling someone a mercenary isn't like calling them a shit-cloak runner, there's a distinction from one type to another. Now sure. A mercenary may be looked down upon by a House guard but again, most people aren't concubines and most people, a starving rinther, an independent hunter, a breed, would not, or SHOULD not (in my opinion) be using the word whore like you'd use prick or asshole or elf-fucker.
You're a Runner in the Byn? Why would you be calling that whore whore like you're so much better? He's prolly making TONS more sid than you and the shit he's cleaning up is a whole lot less and gotten all over him in a much less shloppy manner. Too much? LOL
To look down on someone you have to be in a position above them. (Well, you don't have to be, but it makes you look like less of a hypocrite.)
The social rankings in the game largely focus on affiliation and what your PC was born into, with very little upward mobility. How independents - grebbers, hunters, prostitutes, whatever else - compare to each other - is probably best left to a potentially endless debate IG, because in both major cities all of them are basically lumped together in terms of respectability.
So sure, if your PC is a big shot they could look down on some common whore. But they ought to spread their disdain evenly across the entire group below them. So I agree with RGS in that regard. I guess if your PC isn't a big shot they could look down on a common whore too, but that would justifiably result in a potentially amusing argument IG where it is revealed that your PC is actually in the same social strata as the whore. But of course, that is all IG stuff and difficult to debate whether it is right or wrong on the GDB, because it is just something that could justifiably happen IG.
From time to time there have been PC whores who affiliate with a group, say a unit of soldiers in one of the cities, and (for example) offer their services only to them. That would be a way for a prostitute to gain social ranking, not only because of the affiliation itself but because they are serving a much smaller, more controllable group of clientele, which in turn means they are less likely to have those nasty STIs that can potentially sterilize or kill you. The other obvious example is concubinage in Allanak. But I think it's clear such people would be considered of high rank. Not many PCs could look down on such people.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
1) Whoring is a skill based advancement job.
I'm fine with treating them like high end high class whores, once they advance to that point.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
If you're good it doesn't matter where you start.
If they are good they will advance. Once they advance, I'm fine with treating them like they are advanced and skilled.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
On Zalanthas SEX is a job like any other, above raiders and thieves for sure (in Allanak at least) and worthy of not only their own "exclusive shop" in a certain part of the known but visible every day. Whores are their lowest, worst levels are just holes to use. That I can't disagree with. But that's individual to the character NOT the profession.
Here we agree. I don't treat whores who have "made it" in game like just holes to use. But MOST people are playing just holes to use, because strangely, most people seem to ENJOY playing that when they roll up a whore character.
Whores get treated worse than raiders and thieves because might is right. You don't have to fear whores, most of the time (because most people are playing the "just holes to use" types), you have to fear and respect raiders and thieves.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
2) Do not equate whoring to rape. That's ludicrous.
+1
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
I disagree. Being a mercenary or a guard takes a weapon and to call yourself one, or in Allanak's instance joining a mercenary company. Being a GOOD mercenary takes skill, dedication and constant physical training. A whore puts his/her life in danger every single client without exception, when a salter and a grebber go out into the middle of the sands, it's a game of chance. You might get some critters/raiders, you might not. Until and IF a whore gets to have a regular he/she knows he/she can trust, it's way more dangerous and vulnerable therefor whores have to be smarter.
This falls into the, "If they earn the respect they get the respect.", category, just like any profession. Again, I have no problem treating whores who have "made it", like they are successful, respected, and powerful. Just get to that point first before you expect me to treat you like anything other than a whore who hasn't made it, which is just a hole to use.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 02:08:28 PM
This just happens to be a profession, that FOR THE MOST PART, that garners zero respect, because everyone knows why you are doing it, which is almost always because you can't do better.
That's a real world mentality. Not a Zalanthan mentality.
Most whores "haven't made it", so for most whores, the most common whores who are just whoring to get by, that is a very Zalanthan mentality. The norm, because the normal whore isn't a high end highly successful whore.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 02:08:28 PM
There are exceptions to the rule. Highly successful high end prostitutes in Zalanthas would not be called "whore" in a derogatory manner, wouldn't be treated as such, and would actually be highly sought after and respected for plying their trade in such a way as to have obtained social and material influence. This just isn't the norm, I'm not going to roleplay like it is.
But they ARE is my point and shouldn't be because of real world definitions, the definitions should be appropriate to Zalanthas. It's just not. The profession of whore itself should NOT be the equivalent of the lowest denomination of it cause the HIGHEST denomination of it is reallyyyy high. A mercenary can be a famous mercenary with many won battles but calling someone a mercenary isn't like calling them a shit-cloak runner, there's a distinction from one type to another. Now sure. A mercenary may be looked down upon by a House guard but again, most people aren't concubines and most people, a starving rinther, an independent hunter, a breed, would not, or SHOULD not (in my opinion) be using the word whore like you'd use prick or asshole or elf-fucker.
You're a Runner in the Byn? Why would you be calling that whore whore like you're so much better? He's prolly making TONS more sid than you and the shit he's cleaning up is a whole lot less and gotten all over him in a much less shloppy manner. Too much? LOL
Because mercenaries are in a profession that garners respect almost instantly because they kill other people for a living. You get respect two ways. Being dangerous, or knowing dangerous people who will be dangerous on your behalf. Whores usually don't have this clout on either end. Some do, and once they do, again, I have no problem treating them as such. Until then, holes to use.
They aren't comparable in any way. One garners respect out of fear due the world being ruled by a "Might is right" mentality.
Whores don't get that same respect, because they don't offer that same threat.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 02:56:13 PM
A whole bunch of other shit and...
Because mercenaries are in a profession that garner respect almost instantly because they kill other people for a living.
They aren't comparable in any way. One garners respect out of fear due the world being ruled by a "Might is right" mentality.
Whores don't get that same respect, because they don't offer that same threat.
Again, it should. A normal whore should be treated with the same respect as a normal mercenary. It shouldn't be a might is right mentality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right) according to real world definitions, in Zalanthas
might comes in many forms and whoring is and SHOULD be an example of how might can often come in the shape of genitalia.
Maybe I should rephrase my concern thus way, so that no one thinks I am for 100% banning the use of whore in a derogatory WAY or are saying whoring is akin to aiding or soldiering or anything a bit higher on the social ladder.
A player character that makes a whore does so with a certain "class" objective. A player who makes a rinthi breed whore, expects to be extra beat up by the Known, a regular person who makes a CHARACTER is by default above those of the same profession present in game because they're not NPCs.
I feel it is not appropriate to treat all PC whores like they are the above mentioned breed rinthi 15 sid, disease ridden whore. That whole span between lowest and in your face filthy rich successful above all the whores whore should be played as it is. Normalcy. It's normal and common to be a whore on Zalanthas and when you are doing it because you HAVE TO, you're in the lowest class, but no one in game who plays one HAS to, now do they?
It's funny, because I see the pendulum swing a bit too far toward the "respect" side on this topic sometimes, just as much as it can swing towards derision. For example, next time your character gets a new job, say something like: "I'm sure glad Lord Amos hired me, otherwise I would have ended up whoring on the street!" I guarantee you that somebody else will reply with some variation of: "Well, Talia, that's not so bad... whoring is a respectable profession!"
Now try it again with: "I'm sure glad Lord Amos hired me, otherwise I would have ended up whoring grebbing on the street!" More likely the reply you get will be along the lines of "Yep, you sure are lucky to work for Lord Amos."
In other words, sometimes in our effort to make sure we all convey that we understand whores can be respected in Zalanthas, I feel like we often lose sight of the fact that many also aren't. Crazy as it may sound, plenty of commoners probably wouldn't relish the idea of working on their back in the Tooth or the Gaj every day. The majority of whores are not your tressy-tressed, silk-and-jewels type courtesans - those are the ones who should be respected. Then there are some that might be treated neutrally - "You're an escort? Great, I'm a hunter/crafter/mercenary." At the lowest level are the whores you see in echoes in the Gaj or the Tooth, the ones getting carried off by drunks and so on. Those are probably not people you want to be seen with if you move in classier social circles.
My point is there's a spectrum, and we seem to gravitate towards either extreme in our intepretations. As a whore, where you are on that spectrum is probably defined by a combination of factors: how rich you are, how pretty (and clean!) you are, how important your clients are, who has your back, and so on. I don't really agree with Desertman when he says whoring is a no-skill trade... it's just the relevant skills in play are social skills, not so much how good you are at the actual act. Depending on context the word whore could be a compliment, an insult, or just whatever.
What I see here is confusion over what we mean by "respect."
Some of my past PCs have truly "respected" whores in the sense that they were grateful to them. They were grateful for the risks that those whores were taking in order to provide a much-needed, much-wanted service; risk to their own safety, in particular.
In that way, my past PCs were truly loving towards the whores they paid for. They treated them politely both in public and in private. There was never a feeling of, "you're not worth respecting because you do this work." it was always, "I am very thankful that you have, for whatever reason, come to do this work."
If the whore was the kind of whore that voluntarily chose the work, then that was even better.
How we treat whores is up to our character's values. I think we're all in agreement. However, there should, in my opinion, be far more people valuing whores the way I describe above. Who wants to go to the Gaj if every male vNPC in there hasn't been laid for years? It's a much more relaxed environment for everyone if the vNPC males (and females when applicable) have all easily gotten their rocks off. Whores promote societal peace in general, and you don't need to be a scholar to appreciate it, you see it at the base level. People all know, universally, that whores are helping to ease the blue-balls of society.
So, I'm afraid my viewpoint is more correct than Desertman's. My PCs would never think of calling a whore "just a hole," they would just be more focused on the great deed that whore has done, and choose not to care if the whore has other things they'd rather or could be doing.
The average whore is comparable to a dung sweeper or grebber - unskilled labor. Nothing out of the ordinary but certainly not an enjoyable, safe, or glamorous profession. If they manage to work their way up to higher class clientele, then the game changes- now they're semi-skilled labor. Somewhere around the level of mercenaries, craftspeople. It's not an insult, per se, but it isn't something to be particularly proud of, either, until you become the exception that caters to the higher class.
The real problem I see is that it's difficult for many to roleplay these gradients in a convincing manner.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
Again, it should.
Again, it shouldn't be.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
A normal whore should be treated with the same respect as a normal mercenary.
No they shouldn't, because the way they get their respect isn't remotely similar. A normal mercenary is much more dangerous and threatening than a normal whore.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
It shouldn't be a might is right mentality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right) according to real world definitions, in Zalanthas might comes in many forms and whoring is and SHOULD be an example of how might can often come in the shape of genitalia.
Might in Zalnthan terms comes from three things. Physical prowess, political prowess, or economical prowess. Genitalia shape prowess isn't on the list. I'm not even sure what that means or what you were shooting for there.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
A player character that makes a whore does so with a certain "class" objective. A player who makes a rinthi breed whore, expects to be extra beat up by the Known, a regular person who makes a CHARACTER is by default above those of the same profession present in game because they're not NPCs.
I'm following you here.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
I feel it is not appropriate to treat all PC whores like they are the above mentioned breed rinthi 15 sid, disease ridden whore. That whole span between lowest and in your face filthy rich successful above all the whores whore should be played as it is. Normalcy. It's normal and common to be a whore on Zalanthas and when you are doing it because you HAVE TO, you're in the lowest class, but no one in game who plays one HAS to, now do they?
Again, if the person playing the whore has proven they are better than the 15 sid whore from the rinth in social standing due to physical prowess, social prowess, or economic prowess, I have no problem treating them as such.
Until they have proven they are above that though, that is how they get treated.
People wearing no armor and carrying a crappy sword who call themselves mercenaries get treated like shit scrapers until they prove they are more than a shit scraper who happened to get a sword.
Whores who haven't proven they have clout beyond a rinthi street whore get's treated like one until they prove they deserve more respect than that.
I don't view it as a matter of respect. It is a matter of stigma. In Zalanthas, there is no stigma attached to being a whore.
Respect varies whether you are in Nak or Tuluk. Desertman may be right about the mentality in Nak, but would be dead, completely wrong about mentality in Tuluk. As in Tuluk, might actually does not make right. Caste and social station make right, which is backed up by the might of society and expectations thereof, not how personally dangerous you are.
This whole thread is TL;DR, but I just wanted to throw out there, for those who complain about the OOC seep of the epithet "whore", just make sure it's not YOUR OOC bias that's tainting things, rather than the person using the word. It's perfectly possible to use the word "whore" the same way one would use the word "mercenary", "grebber", etc. A lot of that connotation is lost when speaking has no subtle intonation.
Just make sure you aren't reading 'this f-ing dirty whore' when people are meaning 'this person over here who trades pleasure for coin'.
That's all.
Pardon the vulgarity in this post.
Dman, the mercenary with shit armor and a shit weapon is truly shit. They can't kill anything, they're just a meatshield at best.
A rinthi whore, yes, may be diseased, but she can still give a safe handjob. With gloves on, of course. And the rest of her filthy body a fair distance away. Also, you might want to ask this whore to give you this handjob publicly, because then everyone can see, you only got the handjob from the whore, you didn't use any other part of her.
In this equation, I'm afraid most rational Zalanthans would be calling both of these two competing entrepeneurs shitty, but everyone can appreciate a good handjob.
Quote from: Twilight on January 08, 2014, 03:37:40 PM
I don't view it as a matter of respect. It is a matter of stigma. In Zalanthas, there is no stigma attached to being a whore.
Respect varies whether you are in Nak or Tuluk. Desertman may be right about the mentality in Nak, but would be dead, completely wrong about mentality in Tuluk. As in Tuluk, might actually does not make right. Caste and social station make right, which is backed up by the might of society and expectations thereof, not how personally dangerous you are.
This is still an issue of might makes right.
The only reason the caste system has power in Tuluk is because it is backed by the threat of physical violence by the ruling powers.
Quote from: Harmless on January 08, 2014, 03:39:56 PM
Pardon the vulgarity in this post.
Dman, the mercenary with shit armor and a shit weapon is truly shit. They can't kill anything, they're just a meatshield at best.
A rinthi whore, yes, may be diseased, but she can still give a safe handjob. With gloves on, of course. And the rest of her filthy body a fair distance away. Also, you might want to ask this whore to give you this handjob publicly, because then everyone can see, you only got the handjob from the whore, you didn't use any other part of her.
In this equation, I'm afraid most rational Zalanthans would be calling both of these two competing careers shitty, but everyone can appreciate a good handjob.
It made me chuckle.
I'll give you that.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 03:29:31 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
Again, it should.
Again, it shouldn't be.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree then and when you play a normal non-filthy whore then you let me know how it went for you. :-*
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 03:29:31 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
A normal whore should be treated with the same respect as a normal mercenary.
No they shouldn't, because the way they get their respect isn't remotely similar. A normal mercenary is much more dangerous and threatening than a normal whore.
Please, a normal mercenary on Zalanthas is a sword for hire, expendable, a meat shield people hire to do dirty work they can't be bothered with. And they die by the droves too. To get respect as a mercenary, you have to last a looooooong long time and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day by choice, not by contractual basis.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 03:29:31 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
It shouldn't be a might is right mentality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right) according to real world definitions, in Zalanthas might comes in many forms and whoring is and SHOULD be an example of how might can often come in the shape of genitalia.
Might in Zalnthan terms comes from three things. Physical prowess, political prowess, or economical prowess. Genitalia shape prowess isn't on the list. I'm not even sure what that means or what you were shooting for there.
I was shooting for how whore do have all three of those, the only difference is that in the physical prowess it's linked to the mental prowess pure muscle isn't required to have because using one's body to break down another's walls and become a real threat while appearing NOT to be one is much more dangerous than that big ole sword I see sheathed on your back that I know you can use well. Whore on Zalanthas can be mighty, maybe even more so than that 80 day warrior Byn Sarge.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 03:29:31 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
I feel it is not appropriate to treat all PC whores like they are the above mentioned breed rinthi 15 sid, disease ridden whore. That whole span between lowest and in your face filthy rich successful above all the whores whore should be played as it is. Normalcy. It's normal and common to be a whore on Zalanthas and when you are doing it because you HAVE TO, you're in the lowest class, but no one in game who plays one HAS to, now do they?
Again, if the person playing the whore has proven they are better than the 15 sid whore from the rinth in social standing due to physical prowess, social prowess, or economic prowess, I have no problem treating them as such.
Until they have proven they are above that though, that is how they get treated.
People wearing no armor and carrying a crappy sword who call themselves mercenaries get treated like shit scrapers until they prove they are more than a shit scraper who happened to get a sword.
Whores who haven't proven they have clout beyond a rinthi street whore get's treated like one until they prove they deserve more respect than that.
Two things. One, I've killed more people with my whores than I have ever with any warrior/assassin/mercenary. And two, darlin', if people treated the whore appropriately to what type of whore he/she is, I wouldn't have the thought that it's the real world mentality seeping through. I've watched all whores except Kuraci whores (while in a Kuraci establishment) treated like they're those 15 sid rinthi breed whores. In a world where it's pretty obvious when one IS a rinthi whore and when one isn't, using the term as such allows for a continued illusion that whoring is NOT commonplace.
So maybe the real question is... how commonplace IS it?
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:43:45 PM
We're just going to have to agree to disagree then and when you play a normal non-filthy whore then you let me know how it went for you. :-*
Normal whores would typically be filthy. So, moot point. Normal PC whores, might be better off however. There is a difference. The PC population is the exception. You are arguing for Zalnthan norms, which are not ruled by the PC population.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
Please, a normal mercenary on Zalanthas is a sword for hire, expendable, a meat shield people hire to do dirty work they can't be bothered with. And they die by the droves too. To get respect as a mercenary, you have to last a looooooong long time and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day by choice, not by contractual basis.
A normal whore on Zalanthas is expendable, a hole of meat people hire to do dirty work they don't feel like rubbing out themselves. They die and are raped by the droves too. To get respect as a whore, you have to last a loooooooong long time, and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day due to circumstances, not because they have a choice.
(It works both ways there.)
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:43:45 PM
I was shooting for how whore do have all three of those, the only difference is that in the physical prowess it's linked to the mental prowess pure muscle isn't required to have because using one's body to break down another's walls and become a real threat while appearing NOT to be one is much more dangerous than that big ole sword I see sheathed on your back that I know you can use well. Whore on Zalanthas can be mighty, maybe even more so than that 80 day warrior Byn Sarge.
If your whore is a secret assassin or spy, then yes, I agree. But, she isn't dangerous because she is a whore, she is dangerous because she is an assassin or spy, and that is why she is respected and feared.
Being able to blow a 80 day Byn Sarge, but do nothing beyond that, gets you nothing.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:43:45 PM
Two things. One, I've killed more people with my whores than I have ever with any warrior/assassin/mercenary. And two, darlin', if people treated the whore appropriately to what type of whore he/she is, I wouldn't have the thought that it's the real world mentality seeping through. I've watched all whores except Kuraci whores (while in a Kuraci establishment) treated like they're those 15 sid rinthi breed whores. In a world where it's pretty obvious when one IS a rinthi whore and when one isn't, using the term as such allows for a continued illusion that whoring is NOT commonplace.
So maybe the real question is... how commonplace IS it?
Well, I would have to see logs to agree or disagree. Feel free to PM me. I can't be asked to debate the finer points of situations that I just have to take your word for.
That being said, again, your whores weren't respected or dangerous because they knew how to blow someone, they were respected and dangerous because they could kill people.
They just happened to use whoring as a tool in their arsenal for killing. The killing is what gets the respect, not the whoring.
Shaleah's mentioning of PKs brings up an important issue, that public brothel locations, or public locations to use for sex, that are only minimally private, are truly the ideal location for whoring. Safety is ensured for both parties this way. Bringing a whore to your apartment should be a nuisance for the whore, who will have to walk farther to get the next client, and a risk to her. Bringing a whore to your apartment who could potentially be an assassin is a risk to you. The brothel is the best way to use a whore, as it has been for ALL time.
(edited to add: or, alley. Because it gives a quick escape, and any shenanigans are more likely to be heard on the street.)
I think the client base is the thing, in my opinion. A whore is just another job, like salting or mining, because Zalanthans are just like that. But, if an average, non-magickal person was kinking everything that moved (including elves, gemmed, breeds, dwarves and such) they would be looked upon as being crazy for doing that. Otherwise I don't see any special stigma towards it. Or I should say, I don't -inflict- any special stigma. Most of my experience is with Allanak, whores are always in the taverns and walking the streets. The average 'Naki would see it just as another job. As for respect, I don't see why a whore would be more/less respected than a mercenary, grebber, miner or whatever. It's just another job. It takes as much skill to be a whore as it does a grebber, miner or whatnot. It should be judged on client base, in my opinion. If you're a filthy looking rinthi who is up for any damn thing with anyone, then yes you can expect to be looked upon like garbage. If you're just the average Zalanthan woman or man who whores their own race only, you shouldn't be seen as anything to be judged lower than another job.
I can't really say for certain in Tuluk. I'm not sure they even have sex.
Quote from: Harmless on January 08, 2014, 03:57:44 PM
Shaleah's mentioning of PKs brings up an important issue, that public brothel locations, or public locations to use for sex, that are only minimally private, are truly the ideal location for whoring. Safety is ensured for both parties this way. Bringing a whore to your apartment should be a nuisance for the whore, who will have to walk farther to get the next client, and a risk to her. Bringing a whore to your apartment who could potentially be an assassin is a risk to you. The brothel is the best way to use a whore, as it has been for ALL time.
(edited to add: or, alley. Because it gives a quick escape, and any shenanigans are more likely to be heard on the street.)
Vennant should really have a row of curtained rooms along one wall for whores.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 03:51:26 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:43:45 PM
We're just going to have to agree to disagree then and when you play a normal non-filthy whore then you let me know how it went for you. :-*
Normal whores would typically be filthy. So, moot point. Normal PC whores, might be ARE better off however. There is a difference. The PC population is the exception. You are arguing for Zalnthan norms, which are not ruled by the PC population.
FTFY - Zalanthan norms is that whoring is a commonplace profession and that in that profession there are several 'you get what you pay for' levels. A normal PC whore not being filthy IS normal, for that PC. So when you play a non-rinthi, clean whore who doesn't fall into the dregs of the filth category, then you can tell me about it.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 03:51:26 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
Please, a normal mercenary on Zalanthas is a sword for hire, expendable, a meat shield people hire to do dirty work they can't be bothered with. And they die by the droves too. To get respect as a mercenary, you have to last a looooooong long time and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day by choice, not by contractual basis.
A normal cheap whore on Zalanthas is expendable, a hole of meat people hire to do dirty work they don't feel like rubbing out themselves. They die and are raped by the droves tooif they're stupid. To get respect as a whore, you have to last a loooooooong long time, and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day due to circumstances, not because they have a BY choice, unless they are the worst of the worst whores and HAVE to do it in order for their survival.
(It works both ways there.)
FTFY too. Now it works great!
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 03:51:26 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:43:45 PM
I was shooting for how whore do have all three of those, the only difference is that in the physical prowess it's linked to the mental prowess pure muscle isn't required to have because using one's body to break down another's walls and become a real threat while appearing NOT to be one is much more dangerous than that big ole sword I see sheathed on your back that I know you can use well. Whore on Zalanthas can be mighty, maybe even more so than that 80 day warrior Byn Sarge.
If your whore is a secret assassin or spy, then yes, I agree. But, she isn't dangerous because she is a whore, she is dangerous because she is an assassin or spy, and that is why she is respected and feared.
Being able to blow a 80 day Byn Sarge, but do nothing beyond that, gets you nothing.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 03:43:45 PM
Two things. One, I've killed more people with my whores than I have ever with any warrior/assassin/mercenary. And two, darlin', if people treated the whore appropriately to what type of whore he/she is, I wouldn't have the thought that it's the real world mentality seeping through. I've watched all whores except Kuraci whores (while in a Kuraci establishment) treated like they're those 15 sid rinthi breed whores. In a world where it's pretty obvious when one IS a rinthi whore and when one isn't, using the term as such allows for a continued illusion that whoring is NOT commonplace.
So maybe the real question is... how commonplace IS it?
Well, I would have to see logs to agree or disagree. Feel free to PM me. I can't be asked to debate the finer points of situations that I just have to take your word for.
That being said, again, your whores weren't respected or dangerous because they knew how to blow someone, they were respected and dangerous because they could kill people.
They just happened to use whoring as a tool in their arsenal for killing. The killing is what gets the respect, not the whoring.
I never killed them by lifting a single weapon. :) No coded "illusion" of pretending to be a whore and actually being an assassin or warrior. Just because she was a whore that had done the right things to be in a position to do so. Guess maybe I play above normal whores, whores that GOT dangerous all cause they knew how to blow someone.
Sometimes I crack myself up.
Quote from: Twilight on January 08, 2014, 03:37:40 PM
In Zalanthas, there is no stigma attached to being a whore.
I don't have much to say, aside from my post in the RAT thread, but I think this might be the most important point made in this entire thread, and the one that people should look closest to.
Whore is not a derogatory term, just as slave is not a derogatory term. Make up any clever amount of terms you like to degrade a dirtleg type of whore you wish (and this would be doing so, not because they're whores, but because they're bad at it), but the word 'whore' itself, should not have ANY ill-meaning whatsoever in Zalanthas.
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on January 08, 2014, 05:09:44 PM
Quote from: Twilight on January 08, 2014, 03:37:40 PM
In Zalanthas, there is no stigma attached to being a whore.
I don't have much to say, aside from my post in the RAT thread, but I think this might be the most important point made in this entire thread, and the one that people should look closest to.
Whore is not a derogatory term, just as slave is not a derogatory term. Make up any clever amount of terms you like to degrade a dirtleg type of whore you wish (and this would be doing so, not because they're whores, but because they're bad at it), but the word 'whore' itself, should not have ANY ill-meaning whatsoever in Zalanthas.
But, but... sex workers don't spar all the time, they don't necessarily have lots of coded skills, and they are spooge-filled pieces of garbage! I want my newb dorf mercenary (who will be dead in a week) to yell garbled insults at those sex workers
for being sex workers, and I don't want to feel bad about it!
IMO, it's pretty simple. In Zalanthas practitioners of very few professions are IC'ly deserving of respect without having earned it first. Two that aren't among the few rare exceptions are sex workers and mercenaries. Also, it shouldn't be hard to find reasons to insult other PCs IC'ly without having to resort to RL biases that don't exist IC'ly in Zalanthas. Be creative people!
You know what would solve this issue once and for all?
A Whore's guild...
Dude, that would be so incredibly awesome. You have the whores, you have the pimps, you have the muscle, you have the physicians and they all get organized and where their little gang colors... errr, guild symbols. And when people start mouthing off to (guild affiliated) whores, or about whoring in general, they get a little visit from Guido and his half-giant 'assistant'.
Why has no one done this yet?
Quote from: Narf on January 08, 2014, 05:26:09 PM
You know what would solve this issue once and for all?
A Whore's guild...
Dude, that would be so incredibly awesome. You have the whores, you have the pimps, you have the muscle, you have the physicians and they all get organized and where their little gang colors... errr, guild symbols. And when people start mouthing off to (guild affiliated) whores, or about whoring in general, they get a little visit from Guido and his half-giant 'assistant'.
Why has no one done this yet?
You know, that might not be a bad idea.
Poisons, listen, haggle, flee, sap, stabbing skill and no other. Voila, whore guild. Then maybe people can stop assuming they're mindbenders too!
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 05:31:28 PM
You know, that might not be a bad idea.
Poisons, listen, haggle, flee, sap, stabbing skill and no other. Voila, whore guild. Then maybe people can stop assuming they're mindbenders too!
Yeah, it's called the assassin guild.
I think he meant clan, not guild.
Quote from: Malken on January 08, 2014, 05:33:32 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 05:31:28 PM
You know, that might not be a bad idea.
Poisons, listen, haggle, flee, sap, stabbing skill and no other. Voila, whore guild. Then maybe people can stop assuming they're mindbenders too!
Yeah, it's called the assassin guild.
No, if there was a whore guild no one would question your guild choices. Or maybe as much. And then they wouldn't be watching you like a hawk to see if you're really a merchant waiting for a House position or an assassin/burglar or hidden bender. Whore guild!
guild
/gild/
noun
noun: guild; plural noun: guilds; noun: gild; plural noun: gilds
1.
a medieval association of craftsmen or merchants, often having considerable power.
...
That was the definition I was using in this case.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
Stuff....
Your entire argument appears to have changed from, "Whoring is exactly like -THIS- in Zalanthas." to, "PC whores should be treated different from NPC and VNPC whores because they are different from normal Zalanthan whores."
I agree with your point. PC whores who prove themselves to be better than common whores should not be degraded as common whores.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2014, 05:38:41 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 08, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
Stuff....
Your entire argument appears to have changed from, "Whoring is exactly like -THIS- in Zalanthas." to, "PC whores should be treated different from NPC and VNPC whores because they are different from normal Zalanthan whores."
I agree with your point. PC whores who prove themselves to be better than common whores should not be degraded as common whores.
Now now, just cause you're tired doesn't mean you get to slack. My entire point is that whores shouldn't be treated according to real life moral standards (which is how I've chosen to think the majority of said witnessed interaction being a cause of, not because of blatant disregard for what is normal and not on Zalanthas) and everyone is saying but we're NOT when they are so we're just clarifying the different levels of whoring for those who weren't even aware there were such levels. I'm also saying that your use of common whore refers to low class whores where my use of common whores is NOT low class and in fact should be used as the term commoner. That there should be more common whores than cheap, low whores.
Personally. In my opinion, we should leave everyone their own choice how to think of a whore. And leave whores ways to make sure to prove some people wrong and some people right. Some whores will group up, band up, organize, and create a union. It sounds like a joke, but it isnt, because that is exactly the method they keep themselves safe and powerful. Unless they work on to some one singular individual who is influential and powerful, but then the whores are on their way to becoming concubines. In a way, whores and bards are very similar in their traits and characteristics, as well as methods.
I value whores immensely via ooc stand point. Because they are an incredibly useful tool in people's society, either by adding color, or an actual function (of which there are many). Often enough, during my criminal roles, I value a good whore, more then a skilled muscle. Not because they are good spies, even though they are. Not because they're desperate enough to do things others wouldnt do, which they should be, but so very rarely are. But because they add color, much like bards oughta do.
Quote from: Dar on January 08, 2014, 06:39:41 PM
they add color, much like bards oughta do.
To be honest, when I first started playing Arm I was a little confused that whores weren't actually a sub-set of bards. I mean, you have Circles that pretty much just teach nobles how to have manners, so would it be so strange to add another Circle that "entertains" in the way a whore does? Maybe THOSE whores could then, rightfully, be called courtesans. This could differentiate between the whore who just lays on her back (although good luck making sid if that's all you offer customers) and the whore who knows how to converse, dance, recite poetry, and liven up parties.
Whores can also be incredibly dangerous, especially in a political climate like Tuluk, or even in Allanak if they're bedding a noble. They surely get plenty of pillow talk from their regulars, and beloved whores probably have a fair amount of influence over their clients. They can probably also call in favors.
I'll have to say I sort of agree with ShaLeah which makes me die a little on the inside.
People look down on whores because a lot of people look down on mudsex in my opinion.
When I had rich characters or was 'byn sergeants or both, I would notice no one would pay the whore and they weren't always a filthy 'rinthi whore. I would basically offer to pay for free for the men as a benefit of being one of my men. No takers. You couldn't even get strangers to take a free kank. I think there was one guy who took the offer.
I once paid a whore so she'd kank a gemmer bugging my character to no end. It worked, too :D
Since I prefer to fade, or assume the sex is going on virtually, any of my characters who employ whores, employ virtual whores. And pay for them with virtual sids. And enjoy themselves on virtual time, when I'm not logged in.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 08, 2014, 10:52:29 PM
Since I prefer to fade, or assume the sex is going on virtually, any of my characters who employ whores, employ virtual whores. And pay for them with virtual sids. And enjoy themselves on virtual time, when I'm not logged in.
Makes sense, but folk, remember you can fade with a PC prostitute as well. Just don't pay him/her in virtual sids if you do so. :P
It probably comes down to the character in question, and not the whore in question the more I think about it.
My nice guys are going to treat whores like anyone else. Good to see you. Let's have a tumble. Thanks for the service. See you later.
My bad guys (hired killers, mercenaries, raiders, rough and tumbles who make a living hurting other people) are going to see whores as nothing more than a hole to use and a critter to spooge on, which of course, garners no respect from them.
Seeing as how a lot of the playerbase makes their living being "less than moral folks" this might explain why so many seem to have this outlook on whores as well.
(Also, I have never used the word "spooge" until this thread. I have no idea why I started.)
I've never heard of "spooge" before reading this thread, so thanks for educating me Dman
Quote from: spicemustflow on January 09, 2014, 01:39:37 PM
I've never heard of "spooge" before reading this thread, so thanks for educating me Dman
Me either...
I believe it was said by Eric Cartman in the episode of Southpark where he is giving handies to Ben Affleck with his hand puppet of Jennifer Lopez.
It's a gross term used by gross people, and in this case specifically used to contribute to a dehumanizing of receptive sex partners.
The nice guy/mean guy taxonomy of PC types also strikes me as a boring way to roleplay. Heaven forbid our PCs have different, personally and culturally appropriate responses to the wide variety of colorful PCs inhabiting this grand world Zalanthas. Instead because GROG STEAL, THEREFORE GROG HATE WHORE. The logical leap there is baffling and sleazy.
There is only a small minority of prostitutes in Zalanthas that fit Desertman's very pejorative definition of "whore," a hopeless, unskilled "hole to be used." These are the utterly destitute, rinthis, mutants, deformed, disabled, crippled, starved, who likely have a high mortality rate in their "profession." They exist, and perhaps they are represented by PCs from time to time, just like there are some totally hopeless wannabe grebbers that go out and get ganked with high frequency.
However, many or most of the prostitute PCs you are likely to run across in game, the ones who can afford food and water on a regular basis, maybe an apartment, and so on, essentially the Zalanthan working class, they are already well beyond the "hole to be used" status. By having those basic resources and defending them, particularly in the situations of vulnerability inherent to their profession, implies that they have a great deal of business sense, ability to defend themselves, take care of themselves, etc. Desertman seems to think the only way to be on par with any other commoner citizen as a prostitute is to be part of the tiny minority of upper class courtesans. This is the fundamental error, and it's based on an out-of-place stigmatization of prostitutes as opposed to any other profession, and receptive sex partners in particular (as evinced by Desertman's unsettling fascination with "spooge"), which is itself rooted in (duh) misogyny,homophobia,etc.
Those are some very nice unsubstantiated opinions you have.
You are welcome to them.
If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.
There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.
tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.
Quote from: Riev on January 09, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.
There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.
tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.
To be fair, I don't think the issue is folks saying their indy-whore should be held in high regard. I think the argument is more or less that whoring should not be looked down on any more than any other profession, a problem that tends to exist in the game world.
If a whore, a baker, and a grebber walk into a bar it'd possibly be a rather odd thing for people to be like "Ohay, a baker! Ohay, a grebber! Ewww, a whore!" The whore should be getting her own Ohays too.
Just in regards to being s spooge basket or hole or whatever...
Only 50% of Zalanthas whores are female.
Males have plenty of holes to receive spooge in too, just saying. Can we drop the misogyny/sexist straw-man?
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on January 09, 2014, 06:26:05 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 09, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.
There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.
tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.
To be fair, I don't think the issue is folks saying their indy-whore should be held in high regard. I think the argument is more or less that whoring should not be looked down on any more than any other profession, a problem that tends to exist in the game world.
If a whore, a baker, and a grebber walk into a bar it'd possibly be a rather odd thing for people to be like "Ohay, a baker! Ohay, a grebber! Ewww, a whore!" The whore should be getting her own Ohays too.
Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 09, 2014, 06:32:49 PM
Males have plenty of holes to receive spooge in too, just saying. Can we drop the misogyny/sexist straw-man?
My point was 50% of whores would be hired by females...
Quote from: Lizzie on January 09, 2014, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on January 09, 2014, 06:26:05 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 09, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.
There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.
tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.
To be fair, I don't think the issue is folks saying their indy-whore should be held in high regard. I think the argument is more or less that whoring should not be looked down on any more than any other profession, a problem that tends to exist in the game world.
If a whore, a baker, and a grebber walk into a bar it'd possibly be a rather odd thing for people to be like "Ohay, a baker! Ohay, a grebber! Ewww, a whore!" The whore should be getting her own Ohays too.
Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.
That is you, personally. I think the argument is from society's standpoint that is not the viewpoint. There is no stigma attached to being a whore (and if you are treating them like there is, you are carrying it over from RL), they provide something useful, and it is considered a normal, non-discriminated against profession just like a baker or grebber.
Honestly whores should be treated like drug dealers. A mix of fear, mutual exchange, and a little bit of FUCK YEAH I"M GETTING HIGH/FUCKED.
Quote from: Twilight on January 09, 2014, 06:40:37 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 09, 2014, 06:32:49 PM
Males have plenty of holes to receive spooge in too, just saying. Can we drop the misogyny/sexist straw-man?
My point was 50% of whores would be hired by females...
Yeah I think we're agreeing?
Quote from: Lizzie on January 09, 2014, 06:33:49 PM
Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.
But that in no way means that the profession should be looked down upon. Especially considering it services a large amount of people who -do- feel as if it is a need to them. Grebbers, while a big thing for PCs needing things, have no practical use to a massive portion of the city population. Joe Dungsweeper has no use for a grebber, where a whore would be much more valuable to him. Betty the baker has no need for another baker, where as a whore might be of use to her. Even in the real world, where it -is- looked down upon, whoring is still a rather massive industry(possibly a poor choice word for it), in which people spend tons of money on every year. Sex is apparently something a good wealth of people deem as a need, else it wouldn't be such a big thing.
Not to mention, that's basing it on a needful priority anyways. Some people use it as a recreational thing for fun, especially if they aren't exactly smooth enough to find free sex out there. Some higher ups use it as a reward to their subordinates.
Need for sex can surpass other, more "important" needs.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 09, 2014, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on January 09, 2014, 06:26:05 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 09, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.
There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.
tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.
To be fair, I don't think the issue is folks saying their indy-whore should be held in high regard. I think the argument is more or less that whoring should not be looked down on any more than any other profession, a problem that tends to exist in the game world.
If a whore, a baker, and a grebber walk into a bar it'd possibly be a rather odd thing for people to be like "Ohay, a baker! Ohay, a grebber! Ewww, a whore!" The whore should be getting her own Ohays too.
Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.
^ That reasoning doesn't completely hold up. Sure, you don't -need- a prostitute to have sex, and theoretically you don't even need to have sex at all.
You don't need a lot of things from a lot of people who offer things that are presumably unneeded, yet these people are held with at least some regard. Bards sell entertainment, the GMHs sell luxury goods. Yet these people get their regard not from what they have to offer from society per se, but rather their affiliation. For example, bards from Poet's Circle or House Fale are the
real bards of their cities - other people claiming to be bards are wannabes at best and frauds unworthy of attention at worst.
Prostitutes fit into this reasoning in a similar way. A random prostitute working by themselves is a nobody, on the same level as a baker working by themselves or a grebber working by themselves. Their actual social status is the same as anyone else who is independent regardless of their occupation. Now, a single character could definitely value bakers above prostitutes because one offers yeast while the other offers yeast infections, but that isn't the "official" viewpoint nor is it backed up by documentation. So the end conclusion would be that how players' characters view prostitutes should be on a character-by-character basis, keeping in mind the examples set by the docs.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 09, 2014, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on January 09, 2014, 06:26:05 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 09, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.
There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.
tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.
To be fair, I don't think the issue is folks saying their indy-whore should be held in high regard. I think the argument is more or less that whoring should not be looked down on any more than any other profession, a problem that tends to exist in the game world.
If a whore, a baker, and a grebber walk into a bar it'd possibly be a rather odd thing for people to be like "Ohay, a baker! Ohay, a grebber! Ewww, a whore!" The whore should be getting her own Ohays too.
Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.
By this token, does your character (if they don't wear jewelry, for example) also look at the friendly-neighborhood jeweler at the tavern and say, "Ewww, a jeweler!", or pay -them- no regard?
Quote from: Twilight on January 09, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
Just in regards to being s spooge basket or hole or whatever...
Only 50% of Zalanthas whores are female.
Also, 50% of Zalanthan Johns... are actually Janes and may not be looking for a spooge receptacle when they're hiring a sex worker.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 09, 2014, 06:33:49 PM
Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.
I've been wondering why professional athletes and entertainers are paid so poorly and get no respect IRL and why stay at home parents are so richly paid and highly respected. And why the porn industry makes no money IRL. Also why bards are so poorly paid and disrespected IC'ly.
Quote from: Riev on January 09, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.
There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.
tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.
I think my primary complaint would be that whores get treated worse than grebbers. This doesn't make any sense in a society where promiscuity isn't stigmatized much. I'd wager that most of the people complaining would be perfectly fine if whores were treated as being on par with grebbers.
The complaint is that they are being treated as lower than this.
For no reason.
This thread is more about figuring out how they should be treated, than whining about people who treat them in a manner they dislike. That is was player complaints are for.
The whole "Whores are treated the wrong way in-game" isn't really helping that discussion, It's what led to the discussion, so we're sort of moving backwards.
This is a well thought out argument and you have changed my mind over said topic. Thank you sir.
- nobody ever on the GDB
The way prostitutes should be treated is with the following in mind:
- prostitutes without affiliations are independent commoners.
- all independent commoners are on the same social level.
- the "independent commoner" social level is broad, and holds a ton of commoners including most vNPCs and NPCs.
- those in the independent commoner social level have an individual choice to regard differing professions among independents as being better or worse than others, which translates to PCs forming individual, potentially different opinions about prostitutes, hunters, grebbers, dung-collectors, etc.
- the "normal" opinion of an independent commoner about an independent prostitute is probably that all independents including themselves barely matter at all in the grand scheme of things and any conflict about which profession is better is essentially fighting over nothing, since all indies are scraping by anyway.
- an indie looking down on an indie prostitute doesn't make sense logically, or socially - but PCs do (and are allowed to do) a lot of things that are illogical and anti-social
- an affiliated commoner could have a wide variety of opinions about indie prostitutes, or really any indie - pity, empathy, distaste, zeal, etc.
- prostitutes with affiliation should be treated with their affiliation in mind. (With the most common affiliations being with Kurac or a noble/templar).
Note that this is just my interpretation of the documentation with regards to the power structure in the cities. I don't think it's a cop-out to say that there isn't a right or wrong way to go about treating prostitutes IG so long as it makes sense for your character to be the way they are, based on the background they have and the documentation everyone has access to.
Aaaaaaaand /thread.
Deftly put, Cutthroat.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 09, 2014, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on January 09, 2014, 06:26:05 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 09, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.
There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.
tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.
To be fair, I don't think the issue is folks saying their indy-whore should be held in high regard. I think the argument is more or less that whoring should not be looked down on any more than any other profession, a problem that tends to exist in the game world.
If a whore, a baker, and a grebber walk into a bar it'd possibly be a rather odd thing for people to be like "Ohay, a baker! Ohay, a grebber! Ewww, a whore!" The whore should be getting her own Ohays too.
Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.
I won't bother citing studies (http://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c810) or articles (http://www.forbes.com/2003/10/08/cz_af_1008health.html) on how sex is indeed a necessary thing, you can Google that all on your own. You may not need it, or want it, but for the vast majority of the human race it IS a need.
Quote from: ale six on January 08, 2014, 03:20:53 PM
It's funny, because I see the pendulum swing a bit too far toward the "respect" side on this topic sometimes, just as much as it can swing towards derision. For example, next time your character gets a new job, say something like: "I'm sure glad Lord Amos hired me, otherwise I would have ended up whoring on the street!" I guarantee you that somebody else will reply with some variation of: "Well, Talia, that's not so bad... whoring is a respectable profession!"
That's funny as hell, you're 100% right, we need a better balance. When someone says something "bad" about whoring everyone who isn't of that mindset jumps on them and tries to set them straight. I do it. I do it because I really do feel it's a matter of real world mentality versus Zalanthan appropriate mentality in most of those cases. Out of all the times that I've seen this happen in all the years of play I can count the times on one hand where it was a completely character appropriate reaction. Twice. Their background was tragic and they had every right to have lingering emotional shit tied to whores. I hope most of the people who react like, What?!? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfylJy_nMbM), do so because they too think like I do, that maybe they're newbies and don't know that whoring is a job like any other on Zalanthas so we all jump on the educate the newbie bandwagon.
If you want to play a character who treats whores because they are "useless" to you, because they don't provide a service useful to you, fine. That's a concept that fits in Zalanthas. But it isn't the case at all for many people in the game world, virtual or real. If you want them to think you're a "shit-shovel," to use a Zalanthan term, or that you're someone no fun to be around, drink with, gamble around, bring your whores to their party, etc... well, then go ahead and look down on whores. It makes as much sense to treat someone like that in the world with total confusion (why are you so concerned over a whore? There's like, twenty of them all around us,) as it makes sense for any PC to see whores as being less useful.
Useless to me? Maybe, but useful to -somebody- I probably want to befriend, or at least stay on neutral terms with.
That's the idea, but unfortunately there are people who come at the "how do I see whores" question (from many angles!) and still get one crucial thing wrong. They assume that everyone else does or should see whores the same way they or their characters do, when the fact is there IS a huge segment of certain populations that would easily defend a whore, if for any reason, to keep the whore around in case they get lucky with them next; or, they might defend whores because they've used so many in the past that they become fond of them. Not unusual.
Anyway, the real world has way, way more whores than you guys realize. It's the oldest profession, and unfortunately, our societal lineage (particularly here in the states), has given many people very little education on the reality, why it occurs, how different societies have sought to control it (most don't take anything even remotely similar to the eradication approach America favors), and how whores interact with other members of those societies.
Edited to add: By the way, some have stated in here that "whore -> prostitute -> courtesan" or some such hierarchy of terms exists. I don't think that's an issue here, though I agree in the case of courtesan. Semantics was never the problem here.
Quote from: Twilight on January 09, 2014, 06:40:37 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 09, 2014, 06:32:49 PM
Males have plenty of holes to receive spooge in too, just saying. Can we drop the misogyny/sexist straw-man?
My point was 50% of whores would be hired by females...
Quote from: Lizzie on January 09, 2014, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on January 09, 2014, 06:26:05 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 09, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.
There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.
tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.
To be fair, I don't think the issue is folks saying their indy-whore should be held in high regard. I think the argument is more or less that whoring should not be looked down on any more than any other profession, a problem that tends to exist in the game world.
If a whore, a baker, and a grebber walk into a bar it'd possibly be a rather odd thing for people to be like "Ohay, a baker! Ohay, a grebber! Ewww, a whore!" The whore should be getting her own Ohays too.
Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.
That is you, personally. I think the argument is from society's standpoint that is not the viewpoint. There is no stigma attached to being a whore (and if you are treating them like there is, you are carrying it over from RL), they provide something useful, and it is considered a normal, non-discriminated against profession just like a baker or grebber.
And again - as I and several other people have said - it depends on the whore. It depends on the baker. If it's a baker of the bread that McDonald's uses to make their Big Macs - they are held by me in LOW regard. Not even neutral. Low. If it's a whore who accepts rinthis among her clientelle - even if she also services nobles - she will be held in LOW regard. Not even neutral. Unless of course I'm playing a rinthi, who is looking to hire a whore. In that case - the whore will be held in high regard. For at least 10 minutes.
If it's a whore who can afford to reject elves, and does reject elves, I might consider him in somewhat neutral regard. But if it's a whore wearing a gem, I'd consider him even lower than low. I'd consider him a thorough abomination, disgusting, despicable, and having the very distinct and dubious honor of being capable of passing unholy taints through my bloodstream just by virtue of his hand touching my penis, even through a scrap of sandcloth covering it.
If it's a whore who services gemmed - I'd consider it exactly the same as if it was a gemmed whore. Unless of course I was the gemmed customer seeking services of a whore. In which case, I might even prefer the services of a gemmed whore, and not an ungemmed whore. Because every sane person knows that any ungemmed whore who is willing to service a gemmed, is someone who doesn't care if he gets tainted or crotch-rot or any other kind of disease that could very easily spread and become pandemic.
And so on and so forth.
If it's a whore who only services ranking merchant-house employees/family, nobles, and templars, I'd probably hold them in fairly high esteem. Well except if I was a Tuluki, in which case I'd think of them as abominable, because nobles and templars don't use commoner whores for sexual pleasures, and if it's just a discussion about the habits of southerners, it's uncouth, and the whore would be held in particularly low esteem, right along with the nobles and templars.
Etc. etc. etc.
Whores are commoners. As such, they fall into the same rank and file as all other commoners. If they lack rank and do business with people of dubious character/reputation, their own character/reputation is on par. If they have rank and do business with people of rank, then the perception of the whore should be equally on par.
It all depends on the whore in question. There is no generic whore.
... I worry for what has been done to me for I would follow a baker who baked mcdonald's hamburger buns like a spice addict following a kuraci merchant.
I only rarely even eat mcdonald's, and it's been ... since summer at least since I touched the stuff ...
but damnit, here I am, craving just the buns ... possibly fitting in a thread about whores ...
Lizzie what have you done?
When you play this, I will treat you like this. Until then, no dice:
(http://d6holocron.com/wiki/images/6/66/Inara_Serra.jpg)
No, you'll just roll your eyes and complain about snowflake f-me's.
Quote from: Delirium on January 10, 2014, 09:59:29 AM
No, you'll just roll your eyes and complain about snowflake f-me's.
But not to their face, and not in game.
Oh great, yet inara complaint about f-me's to wash over the GDB like a river. Maybe it's time to throw the book at you maladroit folks that are ignoring the sweet serenity of this fine profession.
(there's a special hell for derails like these)
Quote from: Nyr on January 10, 2014, 10:12:14 AM
Oh great, yet inara complaint about f-me's to wash over the GDB like a river. Maybe it's time to throw the book at you maladroit folks that are ignoring the sweet serenity of this fine profession.
(there's a special hell for derails like these)
I dunno why people complain about good looking humans. I worry when I see good looking dorfs or half giants!
[/derail]
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 10, 2014, 10:21:09 AM
Quote from: Nyr on January 10, 2014, 10:12:14 AM
Oh great, yet inara complaint about f-me's to wash over the GDB like a river. Maybe it's time to throw the book at you maladroit folks that are ignoring the sweet serenity of this fine profession.
(there's a special hell for derails like these)
I dunno why people complain about good looking humans. I worry when I see good looking dorfs or half giants!
[/derail]
Whoring should be common. Ultra beautiful people with flawless skin and perfect teeth and tapering waists from their broad shoulders or hourglass figures shouldn't be. But I wrote it in my background! Spare me. Maybe the people who look down on all whores wrote it in theirs.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 10, 2014, 12:18:22 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 10, 2014, 10:21:09 AM
Quote from: Nyr on January 10, 2014, 10:12:14 AM
Oh great, yet inara complaint about f-me's to wash over the GDB like a river. Maybe it's time to throw the book at you maladroit folks that are ignoring the sweet serenity of this fine profession.
(there's a special hell for derails like these)
I dunno why people complain about good looking humans. I worry when I see good looking dorfs or half giants!
[/derail]
Whoring should be common. Ultra beautiful people with flawless skin and perfect teeth and tapering waists from their broad shoulders or hourglass figures shouldn't be. But I wrote it in my background! Spare me. Maybe the people who look down on all whores wrote it in theirs.
People put that they're beautiful in their backgrounds? Lol
I hope they DO put it in their background, then at least they'll have a reason for hating whores and not be like ewww they have sex for a living like I've heard so much that I made this thread. :P
I've never made anyone who was overly attractive OR anyone who hates whores. I just assume there should be something to explain it away.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 10, 2014, 01:01:31 PM
I've never made anyone who was overly attractive OR anyone who hates whores. I just assume there should be something to explain it away.
Dunno if I'd explain looks. Then again I'm told even when I write what I think is an ugly character I'm told otherwise.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 09, 2014, 08:52:29 PM
Whores are commoners [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. As such, they fall into the same rank and file as all other commoners [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. If they lack rank and do business with people of dubious character/reputation, their own character/reputation is on par [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. If they have rank and do business with people of rank, then the perception of the whore should be equally on par [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on].
It all depends on the whore in question [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. There is no generic whore [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on].
Agreed!
Quote from: Red Ranger on January 10, 2014, 02:10:22 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 09, 2014, 08:52:29 PM
Whores are commoners [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. As such, they fall into the same rank and file as all other commoners [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. If they lack rank and do business with people of dubious character/reputation, their own character/reputation is on par [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. If they have rank and do business with people of rank, then the perception of the whore should be equally on par [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on].
It all depends on the whore in question [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. There is no generic whore [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on].
Agreed!
Hopefully you're really agreeing and not being snarky - because your edit is exactly what I intended to convey :)
Whores get no special treatment just because they're whores. They're no more, or less, respectable than any other mundane commoner. The fact that they're a whore - doesn't give them respectability. And in some cases (such as the ones I offered as an example) - it reduces their respectability (such as a gemmed whore, a rinthi whore, a whore that allows rinthis and gemmed people to make use of his/her intimate services, etc).
More than any other commoner who deals with gemmers, 'rinthis, foreigners and so on?
Quote from: Lizzie on January 10, 2014, 02:57:45 PM
Hopefully you're really agreeing and not being snarky - because your edit is exactly what I intended to convey :)
No snark intended! I 100% agree. Sex workers get no special treatment. So that means they get no special respect for being a sex worker and they get no special stigma for being a sex worker either. Being a sex worker is just one trade like many others and they're subject to the same social boosts and demerits that any other PC must consider including associating with foreigners, Rinthis, magickers, lesser races, speaking out against the Powers that Be and so on.
edit: quote added for clarity.
Quote from: Delusion on January 10, 2014, 03:06:58 PM
More than any other commoner who deals with gemmers, 'rinthis, foreigners and so on?
Well, in fairness to that viewpoint, there does seem to be a lot more stigma associated with sleeping with a magicker than say, selling a magicker something. Perhaps because of the possibility of magicker offspring.
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on January 10, 2014, 03:12:38 PM
Quote from: Delusion on January 10, 2014, 03:06:58 PM
More than any other commoner who deals with gemmers, 'rinthis, foreigners and so on?
Well, in fairness to that viewpoint, there does seem to be a lot more stigma associated with sleeping with a magicker than say, selling a magicker something. Perhaps because of the possibility of magicker offspring.
Different trades may interact with those negative associations differently. The mercenary trade is a trade like any other, but a mercenary plying her trade for a foreigner might get a much more negative reaction than if she plied her trade with a native gemmer in Allanak, for instance. The foreigner/not foreigner distinction might not be a big deal for a baker, though.
Gemmers use mundane blood and sperm for sacrifices. Magickers, by virtue of the fact that they ARE magickers - can make you infertile, make your babies be deformed, make you pregnant when you believed yourself to be infertile, make mul mix not work, make mul mix work permanently, make your penis shrivel up if they have reason to curse you a year after they've had sex with you...
etc. etc. etc.
If you're a gemmer whore, or a whore who has sex with gemmers, you are at risk of any of the above, OR at risk of inflicting any of the above. You should be, for all intents and purposes, a pariah, worse than the worst of filthy rinthi disease-spreading whores. In fact, the only thing worse than a gemmer whore, would be - a gemmer rinthi whore. Or a customer of one.
As I said, a whore should be judged on their race, magickal status, and their clients. I think a gemmed whore should just be treated like other gemmed, something to be feared, loathed, and shunned. I think any non-gemmed who uses their services should be treated as even lower, or a madman.
Quote from: Scarecrow on January 10, 2014, 03:48:06 PM
As I said, a whore should be judged on their race, magickal status, and their clients. I think a gemmed whore should just be treated like other gemmed, something to be feared, loathed, and shunned. I think any non-gemmed who uses their services should be treated as even lower, or a madman.
Yep.
But so should anyone else who hires a gemmer to work for them. Excluding Oash, because they're highborn and must know what they're doing or something. And the Arm of the Dragon using them, because Templars. My point is, if your character doesn't denigrate others who associate with <insert undesirable sort here>, then I just don't see why they would single out a prostitute who does, which sometimes happens.
I wouldn't put a whore who is gemmed below or on the same level as a rinthi whore. Rinthi whores are the lowest in Nak. Scariest, sure but a gemmed commoner is still a commoner and there IS a House that will hire gicks. No House hires rinthis so there is some kind of distinction. No Noble House hires elves, again, a distinction in social rank.
If people wanna risk their peckers falling off or their tits shriveling up from kanking gicks, I'd be more apt to condemn those openly, that's just gross. Alternatively I also wouldn't wanna risk pissing off a gick whore and end up with the same thing because for all I know that shit could happen without kanking them too and I feel people who *do* those kinds of things are hiding behind the code because they know the limitations. If gicks are supposed to be feared, you're not going to be pissing them off now, are you? A rinthi whore? I'd totally berate, he can't close up my lady parts or steal my baby's soul with his breath.
This isn't about individual whores or how the ladder goes from worst to best, though. This is about whoring being just like any other regular job and treated without the stigma that real life carries with that profession because it shouldn't exist on Zalanthas and by the length of the discussion I'd say it's a valid concern since people keep trying to look at the individual whore, their social class ranking and everything in between.
Black and white, whoring is a regular job. Like the merc, the salter, the hunter, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 10, 2014, 03:53:43 PM
Black and white, whoring is a regular job. Like the merc, the salter, the hunter, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker.
Except it isn't.
I know you want it to be. I know your argument is, "It is extremely common place."
Being common place doesn't automatically make it "ok".
People don't look down on high class concubines/courtesans/whores. They do look down on low class alley whores, because people associate them as being unskilled low end dirty street trash. Just like shit diggers, which most of the playerbase wrinkles their nose at too, even though they "shouldn't", because everyone is dirty anyways.
That is just the nature of the beast and the profession.
So be it.
(I demand some threads fighting for the fair treatment of shit diggers, because it is a common job for commoners and everyone is dirty just like them anyways and nobody should associate what they do with being dirty just because we would IRL.)
Quote from: Desertman on January 10, 2014, 04:21:09 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 10, 2014, 03:53:43 PM
Black and white, whoring is a regular job. Like the merc, the salter, the hunter, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker.
Except it isn't.
It should be.
Quote from: Desertman on January 10, 2014, 04:21:09 PM
I know you want it to be. I know your argument is, "It is extremely common place."
Being common place doesn't automatically make it "ok".
My argument is that it's 'normal'. I'd surely put whoring above dung digging.
Quote from: Desertman on January 10, 2014, 04:21:09 PM
(I demand some threads fighting for the fair treatment of shit diggers, because it is a common job for commoners and everyone is dirty just like them anyways and nobody should associate what they do with being dirty just because we would IRL.)
I, playing conniving opportunistic bitches would not publicly dishonor the tradition of shit diggers. Why? Because I might need someone to get rid of a body, so I'll be nice to those people. Most people ignore shit diggers. They should do the same with whores!
Quote from: Desertman on January 10, 2014, 04:21:09 PM
That is just the nature of the Real Life beast (rearing its ugly head on Zalanthas) and the profession is just like any other.
FTFYA
QuotePeople don't look down on high class concubines/courtesans/whores. They do look down on low class alley whores, because people associate them as being unskilled low end dirty street trash. Just like shit diggers, which most of the playerbase wrinkles their nose at too, even though they "shouldn't", because everyone is dirty anyways.
But they're not looking down on them for being whores. They're looking down on them for being unskilled, low end dirty street trash, just like shit diggers. The idea that they're a whore shouldn't factor into it. There is no stigma attached to the profession of whoring itself.
I can comfortably say that I spoke for a segment of the PC population that wouldn't look down on average whores in my previous posts, let's call it the YOLO-swagger division. My pole position is unASSailable.
I found these two links to be pretty interesting and very much related to the discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaira
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornai
For me personally. This discussion ended with Synthesis last post.
Quote from: Dar on January 10, 2014, 11:06:04 PM
I found these two links to be pretty interesting and very much related to the discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaira
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornai
For me personally. This discussion ended with Synthesis last post.
Synthesis hasn't posted in this thread at all.
Quote from: Delusion on January 10, 2014, 03:52:21 PM
Quote from: Scarecrow on January 10, 2014, 03:48:06 PM
As I said, a whore should be judged on their race, magickal status, and their clients. I think a gemmed whore should just be treated like other gemmed, something to be feared, loathed, and shunned. I think any non-gemmed who uses their services should be treated as even lower, or a madman.
Yep.
But so should anyone else who hires a gemmer to work for them. Excluding Oash, because they're highborn and must know what they're doing or something. And the Arm of the Dragon using them, because Templars. My point is, if your character doesn't denigrate others who associate with <insert undesirable sort here>, then I just don't see why they would single out a prostitute who does, which sometimes happens.
I can see why that would happen.
Look at it this way: a salt digger going out and digging salt with a gemmed must have something wrong with him. People are going to denigrate him and be wary of him and wonder why the hell he is comfortable going out into the wilderness with a gemmer like it's no big deal. Especially if he defends it or says the gemmer is his friend or something.
A prostitute sleeps with a gemmed. There must be something wrong with him, too!
But unlike that salt grebber, the prostitute now goes out and plies his or her trade, sleeping with other people. There's a lot of superstitions about sleeping with gemmers. And however bad it is to go out salting with one, I'm not sure you'd find many people who wouldn't think sleeping with a mage is gravely worse.
I can definitely see there being stigma attached to a prostitute who willingly sleeps with gemmed PCs and then tries to sleep with mundanes.
I'd be mad if I found out my buddy went salting with a magicker, but I'd be a lot madder if I found out my buddy slept with one, even if it paid him.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 10, 2014, 11:25:06 PM
Quote from: Dar on January 10, 2014, 11:06:04 PM
I found these two links to be pretty interesting and very much related to the discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaira
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornai
For me personally. This discussion ended with Synthesis last post.
Synthesis hasn't posted in this thread at all.
He meant Cutthroat, I bet.
I have not posted before this because I cannot stop laughing at the people that have said that whore is a "no skill" profession.
But at least I know who to never invite into bed, IRL or mudsexxing.
Heh, I've thought the same.
Sorry, yeah. For some reason when I think Synthesis, I think "an evil, bloodthirsty, cutthroat"
nod self.
I think what happens is alot of people take RL into the game with them. Free love is part of Zalanthas as is having multiple sexual partners both male and female and some with even different races. I've played whores myself and had fun with it.
Though I am very wary of stone throwing, here are my opinions on the topic. Please understand, I'm not talking about courtesans or high ranking concubines and things of that sort here. For this discussion, or at least my input in it, I'm specifically referring to street prostitutes and brothels, etc.
To say that prostitution was accepted in ancient times is something which, I feel, is or was a) only partially true and b) misunderstood by many players as to what that means. Yes, it was openly accepted in many cultures (though there were occasions where the same societies underwent periods of conservativism on the matter, depending on the emperor or leader in question). But they were still viewed as someone who was being used to perform a service. Dung sweepers also perform a service, I can't help but wonder how well they were treated in ancient times. If someone shouted across Caravan Road, "Shut up and clean that street, you lowly dung sweeper!" no one would blink an eye. But I bet you dollars to donuts that this discussion board and the staff request inbox would be brimming with hostility if one single character even shouted at a prostitute with, "Shut up and get to work, you damn hooker!" Did he insult the profession? Nope, he just called her that which she is. Same thing in the dung sweeper scenario. But I suspect many a player will leap to conclusions and assume the comment is a slander at the mere notion of prostitutes in general (when it's not).
I'd also like to add that in ancient times, as on Zalanthas, mankind understood the concept of venereal diseases and that engaging in sex could potentially result in an STD. They may not have understood the biology behind it, but it's a mistake to assume that only with microscopes and modern science can mankind know that a burning sensation in one's urethra, for example, is a thing which may have been acquired from one's sexual partner. That certainly didn't stop people from engaging in sex acts, understand, but that doesn't mean they were naive to the concept of STDs.
As in my shouting at dung sweepers vs prostitutes example above, I think when people post on the GDB and say they see a lot of mistreatment of whores in game they may be misinterpreting what was said. Are you sure the person was insulting the very concept of prostitution? Let me illustrate what I mean.
A 'Rinthi gang member and his prostitute of a sidekick show up to do business with a rich, nicely dressed merchant. The gang member discusses whatever seedy, underworld transaction they're making. The merchant, while wanting to do business with them, keeps a wary eye on both people and also keeps his distance. The gang member in turn says to the merchant: "Don't worry, mate. I may be in rags, but you can't catch anything from me." There's a pause, he looks at his prostitute friend who came with him, then jokingly adds: "Not from me anyway, heh heh."
Did he just insult the notion of prostitutes in general by badmouthing (however playfully) the hooker in the above scene? I don't think so. But it's just the sort of thing I can see invoking the ire of GDB posters everywhere and leading to multiple threads on the topic. The real irony is that I'll bet any money in these ancient cultures which supposedly accepted prostitution, they still had offensive nicknames for prostitutes and people used them quite freely. It's just that no one really made that much of a fuss about it because they didn't live in a hyper-sensitive society that most of us do today where political incorrectedness can literally lead to a lawsuit in which the "offended" individual reaps a massive fortune from it. Calling someone a stupid hooker would have been as small of a comment as calling a handicapped person a stupid cripple, or a barmaid a stupid servant, etc.
I fly to Thailand many times each year for my job and though it may not entirely compare to what the notion of prostitution must have been like in ancient Greece, Rome, etc., it is still a country which has a general open acceptance of the profession (though I should note it is still technically illegal, but the law turns a blind eye and massage parlors acting as brothels are aplenty). Yet people still make fairly snide comments to their face, or look at them in a certain way. But these comments are just as quickly forgotten and everyone gets on with their day. Even though Bangkok is crawling with hookers, Thais from the same city, from upstanding families, would never ever want to be confused as a hooker themselves. There's very much a stigma behind the profession, despite it's relative acceptance. Do you honestly think it was any different in ancient times? People most probably did insult hookers, but no one bothered to react because life was difficult and you just dealt with it like anything else. Also, most people in ancient times, as in the modern era, do not view a prostitute as someone they want to have as a long term mate. I know a lot of players here like to think that on Arm no one cares how promiscuous you are or how many sexual partners you've had, but if anything in ancient times people cared more about these issues than we do today. It's prudent and evolutionary to want to protect your own genes by ensuring your partner has had few (or no other) partners. This is often why the same people who will pay for a prostitute will also speak ill of them. They just want to get off, that doesn't mean they think highly of the woman (or man) performing the deed for them.
Lastly, I think the opinion of prostitution may vary slightly depending on the location of the game. Allanakis, for example, dress very conservatively by comparison with Tuluk. Behavior of this sort could likely lead to the notion of prostitution being frowned upon (it would, at the very least, make it a thing which is done more privately since it involves the removal of clothes), but, sadly, I think if the game went in this direction there would be a revolt on the GDB, perhaps even a mutiny. Which is a shame, because I'd love to see a distinction like this between the city-states. In the case of tribes I could also see the notion of paying for sex as very frowned upon. Outsiders are outsiders and you should keep your distance from them, and tribes are typically too small, themselves, to have any sort of sex servant role. They may have been found in Native societies such as the Incans or the Mayans, who were vast civilizations, but probably not at all amongst smaller, tent-dwelling tribes and such.
Courtesans and prostitutes are -more- likely to be accepted in Allanak because it's a society that views sexual pleasure between commoners and those of higher blood alike as an acceptable thing. It doesn't stigmatize a commoner and noble sleeping together like Tuluk does.
hrm. I can't say I agree with every point Suhuy makes. In particular, I caution against using Thailand as a "best case scenario for whores." It isn't. It's a capitalistic, raped by western influence, economically shattered modern nation with a lot of whores by necessity. The prostitution situation there is more similar to south korea, post korean war. Moreover, there are so many values that contradict Zalanthan ones, such as males > females, women are commodities or a burden, men are the real moneymakers, etc... values that simply never existed in Zalanthas.
At least in the example I chose (Edo Japan), women were legally allowed to read and write, and many of the nation's most cherished works were written by known women -- of the court. Society was strictly hierarchical, and life was a shitty, "might-makes-right" hell for anyone not in the capital city itself. However, within the city was a fortress town, ruled by an iron fist, where murder was basically unheard of (executions of criminals by samurai didn't count of course). In Edo Japan, mothers in the countryside would regularly send their daughters, aged 7 to 13, to Edo to become prostitutes, knowingly, in order to try and have them move up in society. The benefits of being a prostitute in Edo period Japan were many, including wealth, fine clothing, influence on anyone from humble but protective samurai to daimyo. But, importantly, every wealthy, successful Geisha started at the same place, the rock-bottom, a lowly aide to an older, more experienced, and more skilled prostitute, then learned from there the necessary skills of prostitution. Their rank was earned among their peers and their customers both. And nowhere in the entire journey did those geisha have to deal with the kinds of stigma you're discussing here... not to say they didn't have disease, but I addressed that in my first post on the topic.
Oh, and one last point: there was a whole gradation of geisha even during the Edo period, including low class geisha that weren't courtesans at all but just common prostitutes. They, however, benefited socially from the praise and adoration of the highest class geisha. Rather than be insulted (pointless, looks strange for the insulter more than anything) or beaten, they were just used for sex more often. This meant the lower-grade geisha were more likely to get pregnant, have miscarriages and die, or catch STI's and die, but nowhere in the mix was there stigma magically thrown in. I don't get how people assume that such a logical leap is "matter of fact."
Quote from: evilcabbage on January 12, 2014, 09:10:51 AM
Courtesans and prostitutes are -more- likely to be accepted in Allanak because it's a society that views sexual pleasure between commoners and those of higher blood alike as an acceptable thing. It doesn't stigmatize a commoner and noble sleeping together like Tuluk does.
I think that's a little too black and white of a simplification here. It doesn't properly reflect the emphasis of hierarchy and social standing, something which is very important in Allanak. Courtesans may quite often sleep with the nobility of Allanak, that is true, but any noble with half a brain would think twice about sleeping with a common street hooker. An act of this sort would be a stain on their reputation, making them the laughing stock of the entire nobles' quarter.
There may be certain types of commoners who sleep with the nobility, but by no means does this mean just any commoner.
Every one of my whores has had at least one noble client. I attribute that to their being non rinthi and clean. By no means wee they courtesans nor concubines.
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 12, 2014, 12:51:51 PM
Every one of my whores has had at least one noble client. I attribute that to their being non rinthi and clean. By no means wee they courtesans nor concubines.
Forget the words courtesan and concubine for the moment then. They were commoners from decent backgrounds (as far as one can tell by looking at them at least). That's a big distinction from the average low class commoner NPC you see walking around the commoners' quarter. Go have a look at them. They're meant to represent the bread and butter of Allanak. The 90%. The majority. And most of them are only a hair above the look of a Rinther. In fact, many of them practically are Rinthers by appearance just without the dark, hooded cloak. Regardless of what the noble
PCs of Allanak may be doing, the average noble most certainly should not be bringing commoners of this station into their beds. At least not without fear of humiliation.
Quote from: Suhuy on January 12, 2014, 01:20:55 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 12, 2014, 12:51:51 PM
Every one of my whores has had at least one noble client. I attribute that to their being non rinthi and clean. By no means wee they courtesans nor concubines.
Forget the words courtesan and concubine for the moment then. They were commoners from decent backgrounds (as far as one can tell by looking at them at least). That's a big distinction from the average low class commoner NPC you see walking around the commoners' quarter. Go have a look at them. They're meant to represent the bread and butter of Allanak. The 90%. The majority. And most of them are only a hair above the look of a Rinther. In fact, many of them practically are Rinthers by appearance just without the dark, hooded cloak. Regardless of what the noble PCs of Allanak may be doing, the average noble most certainly should not be bringing commoners of this station into their beds. At least not without fear of humiliation.
Humiliation, sand fleas, crotch rot, not to mention any potential taint the whore is bringing into their bed, as a result of that whore having given Joe Drovian a blowjob last Nekrete.
Quote from: Suhuy on January 12, 2014, 01:20:55 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 12, 2014, 12:51:51 PM
Every one of my whores has had at least one noble client. I attribute that to their being non rinthi and clean. By no means wee they courtesans nor concubines.
Forget the words courtesan and concubine for the moment then. They were commoners from decent backgrounds (as far as one can tell by looking at them at least). That's a big distinction from the average low class commoner NPC you see walking around the commoners' quarter. Go have a look at them. They're meant to represent the bread and butter of Allanak. The 90%. The majority. And most of them are only a hair above the look of a Rinther. In fact, many of them practically are Rinthers by appearance just without the dark, hooded cloak. Regardless of what the noble PCs of Allanak may be doing, the average noble most certainly should not be bringing commoners of this station into their beds. At least not without fear of humiliation.
Maybe in Tuluk. In Allanak I'd beg to differ since they pretty much do what they wish in their bedrooms. Would they do so publicly? No. But I could see a noble in Nak get himself a rinthi thief to supplement his income, finding it keep-worthy, cleaning it up, sending it to the atrium and elevating its station. Bedding it or not.
Lowly commoners hold stigma. No doubt. A profession, other than say, thieves, murderers and raiders, does not. Whoring is a profession like any other. In Tuluk thieves and murderers are held in pretty high regard. Raiders are pretty much hunted down everywhere.
Anyway, it's about the profession in general and it holding said stigma because of real world morality.
Quote from: ShaLeah
Anyway, it's about the profession in general and it holding said stigma because of real world morality.
That's actually not what any of this is about at all. Real world morality has nothing to do with this discussion and I don't think it's ever really, truly affecting that many players' portrayal of their characters in game.
The problem is you're taking a very broad idea and trying to generalize it into an oversimplified, concrete, black and white solution. And it just doesn't work that way. There are too many layers. You can't simply dictate that this is the way it should be across the board, in every level of society, everywhere. That's like saying Americans love Formula 1. Well, sure, some do, but it depends on which Americans you're talking about here.
You can beg to differ about how it works in Allanak all you want, but the fact of the matter is that nobles should be very protective of their image and reputation, and that includes who they associate with. Even more who they are seen to be intimate with. You can play the "well nobles do what they want because they are better than commoners" card, but that by no means assumes they are immune to ridicule. For anyone familiar with the BBC TV series Rome, they will remember the noble character Servilia of the Junii. She was having an affair with Caesar and one of her noble rivals commissioned vandals to paint graffiti all over Rome hinting at the love affair, ruining Servilia's reputation. Now just imagine if a noble were secretly having a romance with, say a half-elf, or a 'Rinther, or an elementalist! And then someone found out. Sure, they're noble, they can "do what they want" because they are "better than you", but they still suffer from the consequences of their actions. And commoners can still secretly paint the walls of the city with graffiti depicting the scandalous liaison, resulting in their noble peers laughing at them to no end.
Nobles do not completely do what they want without consequence. Like celebrities and politicians in this day and age, they are bound by the perception of them from the public. And every time they step foot into the commoners' quarter they know only too well that all eyes are upon them. One wrong action and a scandal will bring ruin and shame to themselves and possibly their entire family. I've said it before, Allanak and Tuluk are very different cultures in many aspects, but they are NOT polar opposites of one another. This is a repeat mistake of many players time and time again. Just because nobles in Tuluk do not sleep with commoners does not presuppose that an Allanaki noble will sleep with any random commoner they encounter.
Like the multilayered situation I've detailed above, the view on prostitution on Zalanthas is also multilayered and cannot fall into one, very simple, cut and dry viewpoint. It depends entirely on the who, where, what and why.
Quote from: Suhuy on January 12, 2014, 02:27:53 PM
Like the multilayered situation I've detailed above, the view on prostitution on Zalanthas is also multilayered and cannot fall into one, very simple, cut and dry viewpoint. It depends entirely on the who, where, what and why.
It IS about real world morality seeping into the game mindset, if it weren't I wouldn't have made this thread. If I had seen over 7 years of continual play that when people insult whores it wasn't accompanied with "they're just a scumbag whore" when they aren't, even when the insulting party is a rinther or a runner. That's not stemmed with the gameworld mindset that runs in line with sex slaves being sold and whores on every third corner, with the norm. Now if you're contending that these people are 100% NOT reacting with any shred of real world mindset, I'm going to say you're wrong. By far most seem to be newbies.
(http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/2941082.jpg)
Maybe there'd be some diversity in whores if the ladies were to hire them occasionally, too. I've seen it happen all of one time so far.
Quote from: Patuk on January 12, 2014, 07:24:25 PM
Maybe there'd be some diversity in whores if the ladies were to hire them occasionally, too. I've seen it happen all of one time so far.
I'm happy to, but my pansexualism manifests enough in my characters I don't know if this actually drives market forces, at all.
Classclown has the best post of the thread...and correct.
I'd extend this to 'a lot of the sexism some might argue exist in the game would end if women started hitting on people more,' but I somehow believe this'd ending up doing more harm than good.
The best indication for me about how people have a thing about this, is what usually happens when a PC of my all innocuously asks a PC dressed completely inappropriately if they are a whore. Indignation is the standard response, and it's usually really not warranted. Half the time I'm asking because my character would be interested in hiring them.
Quote from: valeria on January 12, 2014, 09:51:04 PM
The best indication for me about how people have a thing about this, is what usually happens when a PC of my all innocuously asks a PC dressed completely inappropriately if they are a whore. Indignation is the standard response, and it's usually really not warranted. Half the time I'm asking because my character would be interested in hiring them.
Now this, I've encountered on several occasions. The opposite - people using "whore" as a pejorative - I've also encountered but much less frequently.
Quote from: Patuk on January 12, 2014, 07:24:25 PM
Maybe there'd be some diversity in whores if the ladies were to hire them occasionally, too. I've seen it happen all of one time so far.
Past PCs of mine have tried. I hazily recall one having trouble getting a guy to accept payment. ???
Quote from: Delusion on January 12, 2014, 10:07:45 PM
Quote from: Patuk on January 12, 2014, 07:24:25 PM
Maybe there'd be some diversity in whores if the ladies were to hire them occasionally, too. I've seen it happen all of one time so far.
Past PCs of mine have tried. I hazily recall one having trouble getting a guy to accept payment. ???
.. That's hilarious. Who says no to money?
Quote from: Patuk on January 12, 2014, 10:10:34 PM
Quote from: Delusion on January 12, 2014, 10:07:45 PM
Quote from: Patuk on January 12, 2014, 07:24:25 PM
Maybe there'd be some diversity in whores if the ladies were to hire them occasionally, too. I've seen it happen all of one time so far.
Past PCs of mine have tried. I hazily recall one having trouble getting a guy to accept payment. ???
.. That's hilarious. Who says no to money?
Someone who isn't legally able to accept payment for services rendered, possibly...
Quote from: Kalai on January 12, 2014, 10:30:22 PM
Someone who isn't legally able to accept payment for services rendered, possibly...
Unless you're asking a noble male to whore for you that shouldn't ever really be the case. Again, this is real world stigma leaking through. I don't care if you're militia, you would consider whoring on the side, especially if the client seemed legit. And none of the sergeants should give a fuck about that. As for non-military clans, only in chosen/noble houses should it make any difference, if at all. Even there, I think people go way out of hand, with the expectations of partisans and the like to be celibate, as if that were ever a thing. It shouldn't be the boss's business who their employees fuck, even if it is for money, male or female.
So, no, I disagree, that isn't a thing, except in flagrantly inappropriate situations.
Quote from: Harmless on January 13, 2014, 01:12:00 AM
Quote from: Kalai on January 12, 2014, 10:30:22 PM
Someone who isn't legally able to accept payment for services rendered, possibly...
Unless you're asking a noble male to whore for you that shouldn't ever really be the case. Again, this is real world stigma leaking through. I don't care if you're militia, you would consider whoring on the side, especially if the client seemed legit. And none of the sergeants should give a fuck about that. As for non-military clans, only in chosen/noble houses should it make any difference, if at all. Even there, I think people go way out of hand, with the expectations of partisans and the like to be celibate, as if that were ever a thing. It shouldn't be the boss's business who their employees fuck, even if it is for money, male or female.
So, no, I disagree, that isn't a thing, except in flagrantly inappropriate situations.
Well, there are (vague) laws regarding who can conduct commerce in cities. I think this is what was being referred to, without getting into things I don't know if it's kosher to talk about on the boards.
Well. That's easily remedied. I didn't think that's what Kalai was mentioning. If that was all it was, then that's appropriate.
Aye, was all I meant.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEESS!!!!!!!!!!
(http://ibankcoin.com/flyblog/files/2013/01/OGRE.jpg)
*shakes fist and leaves the thread*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXNqEURmKtA
What bothers me are the whores who walk in and sit down at the bar and just sit there. Work for your sid, damn it!
Also, there's a room echo of some dude paying a whore and dragging her into the Gaj's dormitory. If noobs see that, it's no wonder they treat whores with little regard.
Quote from: Classclown on January 13, 2014, 11:24:03 PM
What bothers me are the whores who walk in and sit down at the bar and just sit there. Work for your sid, damn it!
Also, there's a room echo of some dude paying a whore and dragging her into the Gaj's dormitory. If noobs see that, it's no wonder they treat whores with little regard.
Being a whore should never equate to being a an aide. Being a whore should be on level with being a grebber. Throwing a whore over ones shoulder does not seem out of that range.
Quote from: bcw81 on January 14, 2014, 01:16:25 AM
Quote from: Classclown on January 13, 2014, 11:24:03 PM
What bothers me are the whores who walk in and sit down at the bar and just sit there. Work for your sid, damn it!
Also, there's a room echo of some dude paying a whore and dragging her into the Gaj's dormitory. If noobs see that, it's no wonder they treat whores with little regard.
Being a whore should never equate to being a an aide. Being a whore should be on level with being a grebber. Throwing a whore over ones shoulder does not seem out of that range.
I agree with that, echoes in the Gaj should reflect Gaj clients. There should be some echoes added to other taverns too, AFAIK no other Nakki bars have them.
Quote from: Classclown on January 13, 2014, 11:24:03 PM
What bothers me are the whores who walk in and sit down at the bar and just sit there. Work for your sid, damn it!
Also, there's a room echo of some dude paying a whore and dragging her into the Gaj's dormitory. If noobs see that, it's no wonder they treat whores with little regard.
I think the sort of mentality that's being spoken against here is the other Gaj-residents (low-grade mercenaries, hunters, grebbers, dung-collectors etc.) looking at that sort of whore and turning up their noses and saying, "Well, -I'd- surely never hire someone like that!" and somehow looking down on a person who is essentially their equal as far as social status goes. The thread isn't saying that there shouldn't be low-class whores who are treated in low-class ways.
People should view whores as most other professions are viewed. There are rich ones, poor ones, classy ones, rode-hard-and-hung-up-wet ones, I mean... They definitely shouldn't be discriminated against too much for the simple fact they're a whore, as that seems very Western.
Playing a whore who doesn't adhere to Western stereotypes would be nice, especially since a lot of those stereotypes are degrading to women, when being a whore doesn't necessarily have to be like that, at least not in Armageddon.
Over a decade ago now, the player of Pearl suggested I watch 'Dangerous Beauty' to get an idea of what being a fancy whore/concubine is like, and the "whores" in the film could (and have in the past, robustly) definitely carry over to Armageddon, though they would be limited in interactions and would, as the past as shown... take an aide job at first, not that there are a lot of options for citybound characters as such. But smart aides don't stay aides for long, at least, not if they work for smart nobles.
Anyway, Pearl was "just another aide" who made her own noble houses, and she did it - on Armageddon - basically... by being a whore. concubine, whatever, I realize the distinction but there are fundamental similarities.
I think more players should be more open to hiring whores or just having sex, male and female, even if you ftb, if it's what your character would do, you should do it. I think there -is- a stigma being placed on sex and in turn it gets put on whoring. People just having their chars be a-sexual, without any icly reason for it, is kind of immersion breaking. Heck, even have it be virtual sex with a virtual person or whatever. Getting a whore should be like getting a haircut, just something people do. Not everyone who roleplays out sex ig is at home getting off, I'm certainly not. I just think it adds realism to the char I'm playing and it gets hard, no pun intended, coming up with new ways to say the same thing. It's challenging. Also, typos make mudsex hilarious. :D
Quote from: Classclown on January 14, 2014, 02:57:54 PM
I think more players should be more open to hiring whores or just having sex, male and female, even if you ftb, if it's what your character would do, you should do it. I think there -is- a stigma being placed on sex and in turn it gets put on whoring. People just having their chars be a-sexual, without any icly reason for it, is kind of immersion breaking. Heck, even have it be virtual sex with a virtual person or whatever. Getting a whore should be like getting a haircut, just something people do. Not everyone who roleplays out sex ig is at home getting off, I'm certainly not. I just think it adds realism to the char I'm playing and it gets hard, no pun intended, coming up with new ways to say the same thing. It's challenging. Also, typos make mudsex hilarious. :D
I didn't really have a dog in this fight til now. I think people can play characters who are as sexual or asexual as they like. That has nothing to do with stigma or morality. Different people have different motivations. If players don't want to spend their online time fading to black its not and shouldn't be required. Maybe they get all their faded nookie while they are logged out.
Quote from: Barzalene on January 14, 2014, 03:06:01 PM
Quote from: Classclown on January 14, 2014, 02:57:54 PM
I think more players should be more open to hiring whores or just having sex, male and female, even if you ftb, if it's what your character would do, you should do it. I think there -is- a stigma being placed on sex and in turn it gets put on whoring. People just having their chars be a-sexual, without any icly reason for it, is kind of immersion breaking. Heck, even have it be virtual sex with a virtual person or whatever. Getting a whore should be like getting a haircut, just something people do. Not everyone who roleplays out sex ig is at home getting off, I'm certainly not. I just think it adds realism to the char I'm playing and it gets hard, no pun intended, coming up with new ways to say the same thing. It's challenging. Also, typos make mudsex hilarious. :D
I didn't really have a dog in this fight til now. I think people can play characters who are as sexual or asexual as they like. That has nothing to do with stigma or morality. Different people have different motivations. If players don't want to spend their online time fading to black its not and shouldn't be required. Maybe they get all their faded nookie while they are logged out.
I have to agree that asexual characters throw me off, but that's because I have never, ever, ever met an asexual person. Maybe CC thinks they're asexual because they don't want to roleplay the sex with graphic detail? I dunno. I -do- know that when I play asexual (which are really just sexually dormant) people I get junior high school giddy at how much people try to turn her out. However! I am 100% for playing asexual character or normal or hyper... whatever you wish, that's the whole point of roleplay. No, not the sex you tool, the making up an alternate reality you wanna make.
Quote from: Classclown on January 14, 2014, 02:57:54 PM
Getting a whore should be like getting a haircut, just something people do.
Quote from: Kronibas on January 14, 2014, 02:45:05 AM
People should view whores as most other professions are viewed. There are rich ones, poor ones, classy ones, rode-hard-and-hung-up-wet ones, I mean... They definitely shouldn't be discriminated against too much for the simple fact they're a whore, as that seems very Western.
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on January 10, 2014, 05:17:37 PM
There is no stigma attached to the profession of whoring itself.
Get back on topic!
Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 08, 2014, 09:57:45 PM
I'll have to say I sort of agree with ShaLeah which makes me die a little on the inside.
/me flicks the reins, guiding the thread towards the Shield Wall.
Quote from: Classclown on January 14, 2014, 02:57:54 PM
I think more players should be more open to hiring whores or just having sex, male and female, even if you ftb, if it's what your character would do, you should do it. I think there -is- a stigma being placed on sex and in turn it gets put on whoring. People just having their chars be a-sexual, without any icly reason for it, is kind of immersion breaking. Heck, even have it be virtual sex with a virtual person or whatever. Getting a whore should be like getting a haircut, just something people do. Not everyone who roleplays out sex ig is at home getting off, I'm certainly not. I just think it adds realism to the char I'm playing and it gets hard, no pun intended, coming up with new ways to say the same thing. It's challenging. Also, typos make mudsex hilarious. :D
I had a character who had a virtual boyfriend. It was how I figured was the most appropriate way to RP a character who didn't have any special sexual deviancies, while I, the player, was able to avoid the whole "sexual relationship" drama that I really don't enjoy RPing.
Problem was, everyone wanted to meet my character's boyfriend, wanted to know why I never brought him around, who was he, who did he work for, why no one ever met him - this went on for many RL weeks, and was as tiring and frustrating as the RPed PC-PC "sexual relationships" I was trying to avoid.
I can only imagine that if my PC is getting jiggy with a virtual whore, people are going to start wondering who this whore is, that I'm exclusive with them - or why my character has never been known to hire a PC whore - has she been lying all this time? And then all my login time will consist of my RPing the plotline of "my PC who has a pretend whore and why and what are we going to do about it" instead of anything else, which would be just as frustrating as spending all my time RPing why no one has met my character's virtual boyfriend.
Quote from: Classclown on January 14, 2014, 02:57:54 PM
I think more players should be more open to hiring whores or just having sex, male and female, even if you ftb, if it's what your character would do, you should do it. I think there -is- a stigma being placed on sex and in turn it gets put on whoring. People just having their chars be a-sexual, without any icly reason for it, is kind of immersion breaking. Heck, even have it be virtual sex with a virtual person or whatever. Getting a whore should be like getting a haircut, just something people do. Not everyone who roleplays out sex ig is at home getting off, I'm certainly not. I just think it adds realism to the char I'm playing and it gets hard, no pun intended, coming up with new ways to say the same thing. It's challenging. Also, typos make mudsex hilarious. :D
I think my post took into account people who don't like to rp sex or relationships ig or if their pcs are asexual for some ic reason. If you log out, maybe pretend to grab a virtual whore/manwhore and drag them off with you, if it's something your pc would do.
I think this is on topic, because I think it also affects how whoring is treated ig, when people who don't want to rp sex or who are uncomfortable with it look down on people who rp whores or the whores ig.
My question is this, how can you roleplay a three dimensional person without sex being at least implied in their overall development, even if they are asexual, there must be some reason, even so boring as they just never wanted it?
ETA:Also, people not acknowledging vnpcs is kind of creepy and probably off-topic. Unless someone is claiming to be lovers with the Highlord or something, it's normally accepted as real. The only confusions I could see, is if your character is icly lying, which would be another story.
Quote from: Classclown on January 14, 2014, 07:29:45 PM
Quote from: Classclown on January 14, 2014, 02:57:54 PM
I think more players should be more open to hiring whores or just having sex, male and female, even if you ftb, if it's what your character would do, you should do it. I think there -is- a stigma being placed on sex and in turn it gets put on whoring. People just having their chars be a-sexual, without any icly reason for it, is kind of immersion breaking. Heck, even have it be virtual sex with a virtual person or whatever. Getting a whore should be like getting a haircut, just something people do. Not everyone who roleplays out sex ig is at home getting off, I'm certainly not. I just think it adds realism to the char I'm playing and it gets hard, no pun intended, coming up with new ways to say the same thing. It's challenging. Also, typos make mudsex hilarious. :D
I think my post took into account people who don't like to rp sex or relationships ig or if their pcs are asexual for some ic reason. If you log out, maybe pretend to grab a virtual whore/manwhore and drag them off with you, if it's something your pc would do.
I think this is on topic, because I think it also affects how whoring is treated ig, when people who don't want to rp sex or who are uncomfortable with it look down on people who rp whores or the whores ig.
My question is this, how can you roleplay a three dimensional person without sex being at least implied in their overall development, even if they are asexual, there must be some reason, even so boring as they just never wanted it?
I play my character anywhere from three to maybe seven of his days every in game week. Outside that time who knows what he is doing? I have a general idea, because I made him. But sex and the RP around it generally happens in those times I'm sure if I'm not RPing it out with a character.
It doesn't mean you look down on people who do incorporate it in actual play. But it doesn't mean your character isn't influenced by such events in their own personality either.
Personally. I don't have my characters run off a couple of times every IC day to take a dump or find a quiet corner to get rid of all that ale. It's a basic function of life. But it doesn't have to be taken care of when someone is just trying to enjoy a game (on the opposite corner I don't care if people want to RP all that out too, each to their own)
Play how you want (within the basic social structures and rules if Zalanthas) and leave others to do the same is my general philosophy.
/offtopic
Quote from: Classclown on January 14, 2014, 07:29:45 PM
Quote from: Classclown on January 14, 2014, 02:57:54 PM
I think more players should be more open to hiring whores or just having sex, male and female, even if you ftb, if it's what your character would do, you should do it. I think there -is- a stigma being placed on sex and in turn it gets put on whoring. People just having their chars be a-sexual, without any icly reason for it, is kind of immersion breaking. Heck, even have it be virtual sex with a virtual person or whatever. Getting a whore should be like getting a haircut, just something people do. Not everyone who roleplays out sex ig is at home getting off, I'm certainly not. I just think it adds realism to the char I'm playing and it gets hard, no pun intended, coming up with new ways to say the same thing. It's challenging. Also, typos make mudsex hilarious. :D
I think my post took into account people who don't like to rp sex or relationships ig or if their pcs are asexual for some ic reason. If you log out, maybe pretend to grab a virtual whore/manwhore and drag them off with you, if it's something your pc would do.
I think this is on topic, because I think it also affects how whoring is treated ig, when people who don't want to rp sex or who are uncomfortable with it look down on people who rp whores or the whores ig.
My question is this, how can you roleplay a three dimensional person without sex being at least implied in their overall development, even if they are asexual, there must be some reason, even so boring as they just never wanted it?
ETA:Also, people not acknowledging vnpcs is kind of creepy and probably off-topic. Unless someone is claiming to be lovers with the Highlord or something, it's normally accepted as real. The only confusions I could see, is if your character is icly lying, which would be another story.
Don't underestimate the measures some will take to hit on others. Seriously ;_;
Have to say that if you're playing an asexual character the reason indeed probably is just 'they never wanted it'. That's how asexuality works, it's not ... boring. ???
Having your genitals ripped off by a raptor is an exciting reason for not having sex. Just not wanting to is boring, from a storytelling point of view.
Also, you should know what your character is doing in his or her off days, even if you never tell anyone. This is a roleplaying game, not just a hack and slash get exp, get points kind of game. Some thought should go into everything we do ig, at least that's my opinion. Not treating whores with Zalanthas sensibilities is immersion breaking, just as much as rping it's not looked down on to be friends with breeds or neckers, especially in Allanak.
I cringe when I see a group of humans defending a breed or necker against another human. I know, I know, everyone rps how they want, but if you're playing this game, you're at least agreeing to play by the documentation. Humans, Half-Giants, Dwarves, Gickers, Rinthers. Elves, Breeds (gickers and elves might trade positions in the north) That's how I've rp'd it, unless I'm an Elf, and then Human an elves would switch and the lowest get lowered even more if they're a combo, like breed gicker. Nowhere on there is whore though and never has been, unless it's one of those lower ones and a whore of course, but it's because of their race, social status, not the profession.
Being "asexual" need not be boring. Some people just know that sex need not drive everything. the older you get and the more successful you are sexually the more you come to realize that. Not so much that you don't like sex....just you have other things to do and you know you can get laid any time you want....but these fish might not be running so good tomorrow.
In short...i play mostly asexual pcs....because irl i don't get to hack people up with bone swords or shoot fireballs from my ass...but sex...well, i get whatever i want when ever i want...so not need to play it out in a game.
Well there you have it, folks. If you mud sex then you aren't a stud in RL like X-D...or possibly a disease-ridden slut like most of us play in the game. :-\
Alright, well we can cover this again in another year I suppose with people saying the same stuff. If you missed the past threads on whores and concubines you can check them out below.
Common View on Prostitution -- 2003 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,4794.0.html)
Prostitution/Escorting and Noble/Merchant Houses -- 2003 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,3067.0.html)
How to look at a whore. -- 2005 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,12391.0.html)
Prostitution and Zalanthas -- 2007 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,27046.0.html)
Sexism and Whoring in Zalanthas -- 2008 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,31052.0.html)
Whoring and You -- 2008 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,31325.0.html)
Prostitution - Expectations? -- 2010 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,39003.0.html)