Okay. I have found quite a few old posts on the desert elves, and humans, and city elves, but rarely can I find much about how they interact truly. I mean an in-depth discussion of how they can view each other. Though I know the basics and the subtle, my curiosity comes more from this. I wonder what kind of role play it is to interact with them. My main points are this, how do Humans and City/Desert elves, (Each applies to both to be answered if possible) interact.
1. How do humans and elves generally interact if there is a need for regular business, and say the elf, (Such as the NPCs) are the only that really sell a good.
2. (Desert Elf specific) How do humans and elves generally interact if there's a need to trade with those elves of the desert and their tribes? To whatever tribes are actually applicable for an answer.
3. Relationships. I know that as a social aspect that it is unusual, but in the case of the obvious half-elves, what would persuade people and actually take the actions that lead to the half-elves being born? And also would regular relationships with an elf be more likely outside City-States?
4. Treatment. How are elves generally treated. I have watched this play out different ways actually in the game, but is the general reaction to try and avoid them, or actually treat them like they feel like doing? Also, the versa, how would an elf treat a human if there were hardly any other humans to side with the one causing an elf problems?
5. City/Desert elves. Which are more likely to actually have much to do with humans and which are humans more likely to have to do with?
I hope that it can be answered for both the human, and the elf side, and also both the city, and desert elves sides, when applicable.
Though I think I should leave this to the more experienced players, I think I can answer a few things..
There's generally a lot of racism and hate between elves and humans, hence why half-elves are treated with such disdain from both sides. If there's business needing to be done between elf and human, it relies a lot on the person playing the human or elf trading with a elf or human to roleplay their reactions out accordingly. Say for example, my character hates neckers (elves) and thinks them to be nothing but thieves, though when it comes down to trading with elves, my character sucks it up and tries to get as low of a price as possible to make an attempt to say a silent 'fuck you' to the elf selling the wares.
On terms of creating half-elves (human on elf action(*shudder*)), and what has been said time and time before, there are exceptions to some of the docs. There are humans that would think it a fine idea to get into bed with an elf, whereas most others would be disgusted at such a thought and would ridicule anyone daring enough to do it.. I can't be sure if being inside or outside a city-state would have any difference in the matter.
1. It depends on the case and can really be different from person to person. The "average" human thought, in my opinion, would be wariness and expectant of a scam, whereas an elf would at least be tempted to try to steal (whether by charging extra money, selling the wrong item, etc). Though whether they give into their temptation would probably depend on their mood and the human in question.
2. Again it depends on the case and can be different from person to person, as well as from tribe to tribe. Desert elves are even more foreign to humans than city elves are. Among the elven tribes that do trade with humans, the tribes that trade more regularly would probably be more comfortable with the process than tribes that don't.
3. It isn't just unusual, it's completely aberrant. There are very few things that would convince a human and elf to willingly have sex together outside of a deviant fetish that is not accepted by any society in the Known, in a city or not. Humans or elves in a relationship with the opposite would not be willing to reveal such to society, due to the intense stigma. This is why half-elves are usually born of rape. I always thought this was due to the underlying racial tension between humans and elves, especially in parts of the cities where violent crime is more common (e.g., the Labyrinth or the Warrens).
4. Elves make up a large portion of each city's population, about 30%. This mainly includes virtual and NPC elves, as humans and half-elves are far more common races for players to play. So there are reasonably large amounts of elves that might make a human at least think twice before picking on a lone elf, and vice versa. Avoidance or tolerance (in terms of actions, not in terms of internal opinion) might be more common than insulting or beating up an elf just because he is one, though obviously that can happen too. Humans may or may not realize the elves' tribal nature and that an elf with a tribe has significantly more backup than an elf that, for whatever reason, doesn't.
5. City elves are more likely to have much to do with humans from the city, whereas desert elves will more likely have more to do with tribal humans that live outside the cities, although desert elven tribes that thrive on trade are far more likely to deal with humans from the city almost as comfortably.
Quote from: Cutthroat on December 07, 2013, 09:05:32 AM
4. Elves make up a large portion of each city's population, about 30%. This mainly includes virtual and NPC elves, as humans and half-elves are far more common races for players to play. So there are reasonably large amounts of elves that might make a human at least think twice before picking on a lone elf, and vice versa. Avoidance or tolerance (in terms of actions, not in terms of internal opinion) might be more common than insulting or beating up an elf just because he is one, though obviously that can happen too. Humans may or may not realize the elves' tribal nature and that an elf with a tribe has significantly more backup than an elf that, for whatever reason, doesn't.
To expand upon this a bit more. It is really, really hard for most people who play this game, due to their RL culture, to understand the different between the rather casual and not-even-thought-of racism that people would display, and outright hostility. Think of it more like America in the early 1900's, elves are black people, humans are white people -- getting called a sharp, neck, etc. that's all pretty common, and shouldn't be really viewed, ICly, as extreme racism that should evoke a sudden swift response. Being considered as the suspect when a theft occurs? That's just common. It's just how the world works. Sure if a human actively beats up an elf, some sort of retribution may be called for (but, remember, humans massively outnumber elves, and elves tend to think in terms of tribes, so that might look like a pretty scary prospect.) But even then, if the elf gets away unscathed, the human may just turn into a target for theft, rather than risk raising its ire.
People tend to play their elves as super touchy and on the look out for racism.. which is a fine way to play I guess. I'd just like to see a few more examples of people who actually reacted the way a beaten, terrified, hated minority actually would react to their oppressors.
Quote from: maxid on December 07, 2013, 03:32:39 PM
... humans massively outnumber elves ...
This is incorrect. The ratio is more like 2:1 humans:elves according to Nyr's population post of long ago, unless something has happened that would upset the ratios.
But with a slight modification, something like "some retribution may be called for, but remember what side the authorities are almost certainly to come down on," this would probably be more accurate.
Quote from: maxid on December 07, 2013, 03:32:39 PM
Quote from: Cutthroat on December 07, 2013, 09:05:32 AM
4. Elves make up a large portion of each city's population, about 30%. This mainly includes virtual and NPC elves, as humans and half-elves are far more common races for players to play. So there are reasonably large amounts of elves that might make a human at least think twice before picking on a lone elf, and vice versa. Avoidance or tolerance (in terms of actions, not in terms of internal opinion) might be more common than insulting or beating up an elf just because he is one, though obviously that can happen too. Humans may or may not realize the elves' tribal nature and that an elf with a tribe has significantly more backup than an elf that, for whatever reason, doesn't.
Think of it more like America in the early 1900's, elves are black people, humans are white people
No.
If we want to make this analogy, if anything,
dwarves are the 1900's black people of Armageddon: massively outnumbered by everyone, thoroughly without any kind of unification, and looked down on by all. If we take slaves out of the equation, the amount of free city-elves is almost equal to that of free humans in either city-state. No, people don't like elves. Yes, elves are more likely to get accused/convicted of crimes, but then they aren't systematically oppressed and demeaned by humanity at large, either.
My characters generally view elves as mild liabilities at least. Annoying, slightly dangerous, and not to be trusted, but the sheer amount of them makes it so that more than some slight discomfort is really just going to be improductive in the long run anyway.
I can't recall seeing much racism towards dwarves at all, other than the whole 'can't work here because not human' thing.
Quote from: lordcooper on December 08, 2013, 04:36:24 PM
I can't recall seeing much racism towards dwarves at all, other than the whole 'can't work here because not human' thing.
That and a glass ceiling, but otherwise they're usually welcome additions despite their quirks.
Strange. If you want to compare anything to the former slaves' status in the US, it's dwarves. If you want to compare Zalanthas to the real world, that is.
Quote from: maxid on December 07, 2013, 03:32:39 PM
People tend to play their elves as super touchy and on the look out for racism.. which is a fine way to play I guess. I'd just like to see a few more examples of people who actually reacted the way a beaten, terrified, hated minority actually would react to their oppressors.
You may want to played them this way, but it's not really appropriate to the setting.
Elves don't see themselves as downtrodden. They see themselves as smarter, faster and superior. After all, they don't have to ride around on bugs, building jails and spamming scan in taverns.
Quote from: maxid on December 07, 2013, 03:32:39 PM
People tend to play their elves as super touchy and on the look out for racism..
Over about a decade of playing, I've never seen this once.
Quote from: Barzalene on December 09, 2013, 07:58:38 AM
spamming scan in taverns.
To be fair, I also look down on people who do this and I don't even play elves.
Quote from: maxid on December 07, 2013, 03:32:39 PM
To expand upon this a bit more. It is really, really hard for most people who play this game, due to their RL culture, to understand the different between the rather casual and not-even-thought-of racism that people would display, and outright hostility. Think of it more like America in the early 1900's, elves are black people, humans are white people -- getting called a sharp, neck, etc. that's all pretty common, and shouldn't be really viewed, ICly, as extreme racism that should evoke a sudden swift response. Being considered as the suspect when a theft occurs? That's just common. It's just how the world works. Sure if a human actively beats up an elf, some sort of retribution may be called for (but, remember, humans massively outnumber elves, and elves tend to think in terms of tribes, so that might look like a pretty scary prospect.) But even then, if the elf gets away unscathed, the human may just turn into a target for theft, rather than risk raising its ire.
People tend to play their elves as super touchy and on the look out for racism.. which is a fine way to play I guess. I'd just like to see a few more examples of people who actually reacted the way a beaten, terrified, hated minority actually would react to their oppressors.
Racism always comes fairly casual in society. You could not convince my family otherwise not to call blacks, darkies. It is just what they know.
I am certain you are talking about genocide. And there is nothing in the documentation that mentions anything to that kind of relationship between elves and humans.
In my opinion, interaction between elves and humans is at its finest with barely-concealed scorn on both sides, with a thin veneer of niceties-for-the-sake-of-making-money-off-you.
I would like to see a greater presence of Elves in the cities. So far my only experience has been desert tribal elves. I would also like to see more Elves trying to involve themselves or Humans trying to involve them in things. But that can also be said for some of the other races too.
But that is just me. I know its not the way it is or probably will ever be.
Quote from: Yummri on December 10, 2013, 05:00:50 PM
I would like to see a greater presence of Elves in the cities. So far my only experience has been desert tribal elves. I would also like to see more Elves trying to involve themselves or Humans trying to involve them in things. But that can also be said for some of the other races too.
But that is just me. I know its not the way it is or probably will ever be.
Pretty sure if that one tribe opens again, you'll be seeing much more sharps in the city.
Quote from: Iiyola on December 10, 2013, 05:40:41 PM
Quote from: Yummri on December 10, 2013, 05:00:50 PM
I would like to see a greater presence of Elves in the cities. So far my only experience has been desert tribal elves. I would also like to see more Elves trying to involve themselves or Humans trying to involve them in things. But that can also be said for some of the other races too.
But that is just me. I know its not the way it is or probably will ever be.
Pretty sure if that one tribe opens again, you'll be seeing much more sharps in the city.
I'd definitely line up to play one, but right now playing a tribeless city elf is 'meh' at best..
Quote from: Iiyola on December 10, 2013, 05:40:41 PM
Quote from: Yummri on December 10, 2013, 05:00:50 PM
I would like to see a greater presence of Elves in the cities. So far my only experience has been desert tribal elves. I would also like to see more Elves trying to involve themselves or Humans trying to involve them in things. But that can also be said for some of the other races too.
But that is just me. I know its not the way it is or probably will ever be.
Pretty sure if that one tribe opens again, you'll be seeing much more sharps in the city.
There are actually two city elven tribes that are closed as of right now. I think that accounts for all of them?
Ik heb je nodig! :)
In all honesty, it would probably be better for us to reevaluate the role of elves in the cities anyway. Elves certainly need to be playable, and they certainly need to be represented adequately, and they need to have the coded options that are required to facilitate a solid city elven society. As it stands, the options they have don't even come close to representing their role in society, or the niche that they would have carved out.
Of course, this could also be an issue with the consolidation of city-based players. It's hard enough now to people all of the open human clans - trying to people an elven clan would simply drag people away from human clans that already have issues representing themselves correctly.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 10, 2013, 09:39:46 PM
Of course, this could also be an issue with the consolidation of city-based players. It's hard enough now to people all of the open human clans - trying to people an elven clan would simply drag people away from human clans that already have issues representing themselves correctly.
We don't need 15 human clans anyway.
Well, ideally, in my mind, there would only be one city, with two opposing factions that are violently disposed towards each other to provide the conflict that currently exists between the north and the south. To me, two cities split up the city-loving playerbase too much. A city should always seem like it's bustling.
We don't retain enough players to manage that. In that ideal city, there would be enough players for several elven clans to exist, and enough players to open all of the noble houses. Nobles could actually play the game without interacting with commoners if they wanted to. Commoners might actually live out their whole life without speaking to a noble.
But that's a pipe dream, and I know most people would hate that idea quite a bit.
Quote from: Tyas on December 10, 2013, 06:54:57 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on December 10, 2013, 05:40:41 PM
Quote from: Yummri on December 10, 2013, 05:00:50 PM
I would like to see a greater presence of Elves in the cities. So far my only experience has been desert tribal elves. I would also like to see more Elves trying to involve themselves or Humans trying to involve them in things. But that can also be said for some of the other races too.
But that is just me. I know its not the way it is or probably will ever be.
Pretty sure if that one tribe opens again, you'll be seeing much more sharps in the city.
There are actually two city elven tribes that are closed as of right now. I think that accounts for all of them?
Ik heb je nodig! :)
*eyes you suspiciously* Another Dutch?
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 10, 2013, 10:22:45 PM
Well, ideally, in my mind, there would only be one city, with two opposing factions that are violently disposed towards each other to provide the conflict that currently exists between the north and the south. To me, two cities split up the city-loving playerbase too much. A city should always seem like it's bustling.
We don't retain enough players to manage that. In that ideal city, there would be enough players for several elven clans to exist, and enough players to open all of the noble houses. Nobles could actually play the game without interacting with commoners if they wanted to. Commoners might actually live out their whole life without speaking to a noble.
But that's a pipe dream, and I know most people would hate that idea quite a bit.
7DV, you are preaching the good word to this choirgirl. I have wanted this sort of setup for a long long time.
Something would have to be done to weaken the citystate's ultimate power level so that some scrappy tribes/outposts still stood a chance of holding out rather than be instastomped into oblivion, though. Right now, well, two words: Tyn Dashra.
QuoteIn all honesty, it would probably be better for us to reevaluate the role of elves in the cities anyway. Elves certainly need to be playable, and they certainly need to be represented adequately, and they need to have the coded options that are required to facilitate a solid city elven society. As it stands, the options they have don't even come close to representing their role in society, or the niche that they would have carved out.
I very much agree with this. I would like to play an elf at some point. But one of the main things stopping me is that fact that in the cities they have no place. None of the current clans really accept them at all and its the same with breeds but that is more explained in the documentation.
I would like to see certain groups like militia and merchant and noble houses take in some other races simply because every race has something to offer such groups. the training and handling of them is down to rp.
Would just be nice to see. Something change at least.
Quote from: Iiyola on December 10, 2013, 10:23:11 PM
Quote from: Tyas on December 10, 2013, 06:54:57 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on December 10, 2013, 05:40:41 PM
Quote from: Yummri on December 10, 2013, 05:00:50 PM
I would like to see a greater presence of Elves in the cities. So far my only experience has been desert tribal elves. I would also like to see more Elves trying to involve themselves or Humans trying to involve them in things. But that can also be said for some of the other races too.
But that is just me. I know its not the way it is or probably will ever be.
Pretty sure if that one tribe opens again, you'll be seeing much more sharps in the city.
There are actually two city elven tribes that are closed as of right now. I think that accounts for all of them?
Ik heb je nodig! :)
*eyes you suspiciously* Another Dutch?
I am a young Scotsman from the Fleming tribe. I plan on becoming a Dutch citizen and having a family in Belgium/Netherlands.
*little kiddie voice* When I grows up and becomes an a--dult!
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 10, 2013, 10:22:45 PM
Well, ideally, in my mind, there would only be one city, with two opposing factions that are violently disposed towards each other to provide the conflict that currently exists between the north and the south. To me, two cities split up the city-loving playerbase too much. A city should always seem like it's bustling.
We don't retain enough players to manage that. In that ideal city, there would be enough players for several elven clans to exist, and enough players to open all of the noble houses. Nobles could actually play the game without interacting with commoners if they wanted to. Commoners might actually live out their whole life without speaking to a noble.
But that's a pipe dream, and I know most people would hate that idea quite a bit.
I'd love to see that.
I, too, endorse the idea of there being but the one city.
I'd love one city.
I like having two cities, and honestly, with 60+ players at peak, we DO have enough for two cities. Other MUD's I've played would commit murder for half those player numbers at peak time.
It also makes for a good us vs them mindset, gives different regions culture, and makes interesting conflict. And when you have everyone in the one city, everyone begins to whine that there isn't enough different culture and variaty in game choice. It has happened in other MUDS, and it is a terrible idea.
Just my two cents.
Get rid of Storm and Luirs first, if anything.
There has been just one city before. Unless you count the Reynolte estate, Freil's Rest, and the Sanctuary as, uhh, a city. To be sure, there were no Tuluki nobles/templars.
That could happen again with the right player actions. I mean, shit, last year I would have bet a grand IRL that Tyn Dashra would just always be there - well, it's not, anymore. So, really unexpected things can and do happen.
Quote from: Scarecrow on December 12, 2013, 04:42:13 PM
I like having two cities, and honestly, with 60+ players at peak, we DO have enough for two cities. Other MUD's I've played would commit murder for half those player numbers at peak time.
It also makes for a good us vs them mindset, gives different regions culture, and makes interesting conflict. And when you have everyone in the one city, everyone begins to whine that there isn't enough different culture and variaty in game choice. It has happened in other MUDS, and it is a terrible idea.
Just my two cents.
The way I originally had it thought out, both cultures would still remain within that city, and conflict would be easily found between those cultures. I'd retain the outposts and various tiny civilizations, so that there were places to go and live apart from the city's fray, but the way I imagined the single city working would take everything the two cities are now, and bring them into direct, daily conflict, with a condensing of the playerbase that likes cities.
Blow up Allanak and Tuluk and everyone can flee to Luirs. All glory to Kurac.
Spice for the spice god, sids for the sid throne~
Once in a blue moon I see bands of elves walking around, and though it makes my characters very nervous, it always makes me happy that I see players doing this (though sad that it always happens when I'm not playing an elf.) I would love to see more elven role calls BUT DON'T NOBODY MAKE THE ROLL CALL YET I'm not done yet with my current PC ;)
KRATH-DAMNED SKINNERS.
I reckon there's plenty of d-elves out there right now, just we don't see them because of the whole living in the wilds and be desert elves thing. Whenever there is a big gathering IC, like Luirsfest, plenty of those elves show up. They are there, just the average and even unordinary PC rarely finds them.
Quote from: Scarecrow on December 13, 2013, 05:01:23 PM
I reckon there's plenty of d-elves out there right now, just we don't see them because of the whole living in the wilds and be desert elves thing. Whenever there is a big gathering IC, like Luirsfest, plenty of those elves show up. They are there, just the average and even unordinary PC rarely finds them.
Those elves are there alright. I've seen them. I'd go into detail, but I can't.
Oh yeah. It's the city elves that suffer from representation - not the desert elves. Those bastards are alive and well.
Yep, shoulda been clearer but I meant bands of city elves. I almost never see those, except occasionally in Tuluk thanks to the Akai. I can't remember the last time I saw it in Nak. Maybe I've never seen it. And at most in the Rinth I've seen pairs, which is good too.
I've never seen 3 city elves in one spot.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 14, 2013, 04:04:45 PM
I've never seen 3 city elves in one spot.
Just because you've never seen three in one spot doesn't mean they aren't there ;)
Quote from: manipura on December 14, 2013, 04:13:56 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 14, 2013, 04:04:45 PM
I've never seen 3 city elves in one spot.
Just because you've never seen three in one spot doesn't mean they aren't there ;)
I have maxed scan.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 12, 2013, 04:56:55 PM
Get rid of Storm and Luirs first, if anything.
This, bring the sea up and make Allanak near enough to have a port for silt skimmers after getting rid of Storm. That would be boss as fuck.
Quote from: maxid on December 14, 2013, 04:22:57 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 12, 2013, 04:56:55 PM
Get rid of Storm and Luirs first, if anything.
This, bring the sea up and make Allanak near enough to have a port for silt skimmers after getting rid of Storm. That would be boss as fuck.
Uh. Please no. Storm could do with renovations, but it's literally the only place you can play one type of character.
Quote from: bcw81 on December 14, 2013, 05:01:45 PM
Quote from: maxid on December 14, 2013, 04:22:57 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 12, 2013, 04:56:55 PM
Get rid of Storm and Luirs first, if anything.
This, bring the sea up and make Allanak near enough to have a port for silt skimmers after getting rid of Storm. That would be boss as fuck.
Uh. Please no. Storm could do with renovations, but it's literally the only place you can play one type of character.
Hidden snowflake magick tailor?
Unfairly treated jaded mul skimmer captain?
haha lol Patuk
The cool thing about two cities is that you can relatively disappear for long periods of time. Post characters you can also switch.
Also- for characters who remain in one city, the other city's goings on are not always known (unless you have spies). In one city everyone's up in each others business.
thanks guys
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 14, 2013, 04:17:00 PM
Quote from: manipura on December 14, 2013, 04:13:56 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 14, 2013, 04:04:45 PM
I've never seen 3 city elves in one spot.
Just because you've never seen three in one spot doesn't mean they aren't there ;)
I have maxed scan.
pffft max scan
because max scan sees all rite
Depends on if you're wilderness or city, I suppose.