This is relatively simple. When combat starts a line of text that states You/Person is being attacked. Just before combat starts. There should be no delay between this line and combat starting. But ideally it would be on its own line to draw attention to it.
You're Being attacked! / Amos is being attacked!
Combat text.
Why? Well for one it makes it easier to tell when combat has been initiated and who is being attacked. This would be useful for everyone. Sighted players and visually impaired players alike. Sighted players so that they have a split second to react better. And visually impaired because we could be sill ready stuff before combat starts and by then it might be to late. We could set up a trigger for that line to send a beep to alert us to combat so we can skip ahead to what is happening.
Should be easy to do code wise. Or at least I would think so. And doesn't really effect combat at all at least not in any way that would give anyone an advantage. As combat would still happen with no delay and any aggressive action from the shadows would still happen before you had time to do anything about it.
I kind of like this idea. I'm not a visually impaired player, but I do often miss the start of combat when trying to read room descriptions or emotes and the like. Just having that one like to draw attention to it seems like an easy way to make sure you don't miss combat to a screen of scrolling text.
Quote from: LittleLady on November 08, 2013, 04:35:19 PM
I kind of like this idea. I'm not a visually impaired player, but I do often miss the start of combat when trying to read room descriptions or emotes and the like. Just having that one like to draw attention to it seems like an easy way to make sure you don't miss combat to a screen of scrolling text.
When you see rapidly scrolling text, generally it's combat <_<
However this would probably be good for blind players. Problem is, it already says that x attacks you, so it doesn't really change anything at all.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 08, 2013, 04:49:50 PM
However this would probably be good for blind players. Problem is, it already says that x attacks you, so it doesn't really change anything at all.
The change proposed, if I'm understanding this right, is that a delay would be added between "X attacks you!" and the first rounds of combat.
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on November 08, 2013, 05:30:32 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 08, 2013, 04:49:50 PM
However this would probably be good for blind players. Problem is, it already says that x attacks you, so it doesn't really change anything at all.
The change proposed, if I'm understanding this right, is that a delay would be added between "X attacks you!" and the first rounds of combat.
OP specifically said that he wasn't asking for a delay, just an extra line between the "attacks ~" message and the first line of combat.
Oh, indeed. I misread.
Yeah, not entirely sure what this would change, in that case.
It would make it easier on blind players its true.
But sighted players too. I can only imagine that a line saying - You are being attacked or Person A is being attacked.
Would allow for a split second better reaction time for even people who can see rapidly scrolling text when it happens. But text scrolls so fast in large groups of people that it can be really hard to tell if it is combat or just more poses until its too late.
Why this simple line would make a good bit of difference to everyone. As it gives a clear indication to all to allow for a better reaction time. And a split second of warning.
Quote from: Yummri on November 08, 2013, 06:01:29 PM
It would make it easier on blind players its true.
But sighted players too. I can only imagine that a line saying - You are being attacked or Person A is being attacked.
Would allow for a split second better reaction time for even people who can see rapidly scrolling text when it happens. But text scrolls so fast in large groups of people that it can be really hard to tell if it is combat or just more poses until its too late.
Why this simple line would make a good bit of difference to everyone. As it gives a clear indication to all to allow for a better reaction time. And a split second of warning.
It ALREADY says this.
It only does it when you witness someone attacking another person, it also doesn't have a space afterwards, the very next line is combat scroll. It doesn't give you the message when you are attacked, or are attacking.
I like the idea.
EDIT: Nm, rgs covered it.
I like this idea would definitely be very helpful.
I haven't had any trouble with it myself, but I still like the idea... Could be something you could bold, so you'd know if you or someone else were being attacked, say, someone squishy you might need to rescue, say your guard was broken or something. Imagine there'd need to be a few different messages.
This could be handled with client-side scripting, right?
Could have a huge:
THE TULUKI B*STARD IS ATTACKING YOU WITH HIS WILTED FLOWER!
You could even follow it up with a quick macro to set room to brief, highlight known friends stuff and all that.
If it is not difficult to change, I think there is no downside. Generally when someone starts beating on you it's the most noticeable thing going on. A carriage return (fuck you all. I'm old. I remember typewriters) seems like an appropriate level of notice.
I used a typewriter, too. Mechanical.
Twap - Twap - Twap - Twap - Twap - Shrrrrooop - Twap - Twap - Twap - Twap - Twap.
Quote from: DustMight on November 09, 2013, 08:37:13 AM
This could be handled with client-side scripting, right?
Could have a huge:
THE TULUKI B*STARD IS ATTACKING YOU WITH HIS WILTED FLOWER!
You could even follow it up with a quick macro to set room to brief, highlight known friends stuff and all that.
Just set a trigger that executes a variety of macros that highlight text, brief room.
Trigger activates when the phrase: % attacks you pops up? Something like that?
This would be a case of adding a simple "initial attack message" to the creatures code.
I don't think this is a bad idea and could actually be used to add a bit more style and rp to combat in general.
A message like:
The <creature name> is attacking <playername> that gets announced to the room.
This would also give one target line for people to highlight the text, make beep play, etc, rather than having to script in every possible combat message.
It both announces that combat is beginning, who is being engaged, and by what. That is all people are asking for. It's still themely, and it doesn't change combat or the combat timers at all.
Triggers and Macros.
That's good, but again. That relies on you having knowledge of scripting. But not just me everyone. And not everyone does. This is a simple string to give a line of notice and does nothing more.
No bonus for the person who is being attacked. No downside, no drawback and easy to implement. No need for complicated triggers and macros or any other type of scripting.
I'm happy people like the idea though.
Quote from: LittleLady on November 09, 2013, 10:50:02 AM
This would be a case of adding a simple "initial attack message" to the creatures code.
I don't think this is a bad idea and could actually be used to add a bit more style and rp to combat in general.
A message like:
The <creature name> is attacking <playername> that gets announced to the room.
This would also give one target line for people to highlight the text, make beep play, etc, rather than having to script in every possible combat message.
It both announces that combat is beginning, who is being engaged, and by what. That is all people are asking for. It's still themely, and it doesn't change combat or the combat timers at all.
Not so much the players name announced to the room, perhaps description, concealed as it might be or unconcealed. But we do not walk around with our pc's names blaring like a sign over them so that would not be good to see echoed.
But I could see the op's idea of it being announced as benign, perhaps even helpful.
I am not convinced it should be announced to the room at all. Combat is confusing and things happen fast. I think that making PCs keep their awareness up is a good thing. It adds adrenaline and is puts the burden on the player where it belongs. Besides, I can picture a circumstance or two where a player attacking someone or something would absolutely prefer there to be a bit of confusion as to who attacked who.
I suppose I am okay having a special announcement to the player: "You are being attacked!", but it already seems pretty obvious.
So, Infallible Room Arbitrator and Broadcast Announcer - Opposed.
"Someone is beating on You!" announcement to just to the player - Unconvinced.
Seeker
Quote from: Seeker on November 09, 2013, 01:14:42 PM
I am not convinced it should be announced to the room at all. Combat is confusing and things happen fast. I think that making PCs keep their awareness up is a good thing. It adds adrenaline and is puts the burden on the player where it belongs. Besides, I can picture a circumstance or two where a player attacking someone or something would absolutely prefer there to be a bit of confusion as to who attacked who.
I suppose I am okay having a special announcement to the player: "You are being attacked!", but it already seems pretty obvious.
So, Infallible Room Arbitrator and Broadcast Announcer - Opposed.
"Someone is beating on You!" announcement to just to the player - Unconvinced.
Seeker
Ditto
Quote from: Seeker on November 09, 2013, 01:14:42 PM
I am not convinced it should be announced to the room at all. Combat is confusing and things happen fast. I think that making PCs keep their awareness up is a good thing. It adds adrenaline and is puts the burden on the player where it belongs. Besides, I can picture a circumstance or two where a player attacking someone or something would absolutely prefer there to be a bit of confusion as to who attacked who.
I suppose I am okay having a special announcement to the player: "You are being attacked!", but it already seems pretty obvious.
Maybe you're missing the part where the person who's suggesting it isn't just doing so for people who can see and use screen readers.
There's nothing so confusing about combat that you don't realize you're being attacked. Also, adding adrenaline in the ways of obscure and unknown information that can get you killed is less of an adrenaline rush and more of a "fuck you Ginka, I quit." Making the game harsh through coded obscurity is ludicrous. It's not going to make the game any easier to add this echo. It will however make the game easier on those with reading problems.
Currently, if you have brief combat on(which I almost always do) There are instances where you can be in combat with someone for SEVERAL rounds before ever noticing.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 09, 2013, 01:24:37 PM
Currently, if you have brief combat on(which I almost always do) There are instances where you can be in combat with someone for SEVERAL rounds before ever noticing.
Yes but if you're not noticing they're missing so.... don't turn on brief combat?
::) Seriously?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 09, 2013, 01:51:52 PM
::) Seriously?
No. I'm just trolling. Oh no, that was you!
Yes, seriously. Survival requires you to pay attention. Sometimes, a lot of times, we just die stupidly, like not realizing you were in combat, or being AFK. Part of it.
If you're using a screen reader, chances are you will need to turn brief combat on just to try and keep up with everything.
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 09, 2013, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 09, 2013, 01:51:52 PM
::) Seriously?
No. I'm just trolling. Oh no, that was you!
Yes, seriously. Survival requires you to pay attention. Sometimes, a lot of times, we just die stupidly, like not realizing you were in combat, or being AFK. Part of it.
You ignored everything in my post but the one bit to which your only advice to is "So just never use Brief combat and everything is fine."
Okay! Thanks!
Making the game harder through coded frustrations is not the same thing as keeping the world harsh. What you're suggesting is that dying randomly to coded malfunctions and strange obscure coded nuances that you don't know about makes the game a better place.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 09, 2013, 01:59:05 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 09, 2013, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 09, 2013, 01:51:52 PM
::) Seriously?
No. I'm just trolling. Oh no, that was you!
Yes, seriously. Survival requires you to pay attention. Sometimes, a lot of times, we just die stupidly, like not realizing you were in combat, or being AFK. Part of it.
You ignored everything in my post but the one bit to which your only advice to is "So just never use Brief combat and everything is fine."
Okay! Thanks!
Making the game harder through coded frustrations is not the same thing as keeping the world harsh. What you're suggesting is that dying randomly to coded malfunctions and strange obscure coded nuances that you don't know about makes the game a better place.
There is no coded malfunction here. It DOES tell you you're being attacked. There's ALWAYS a message. What do you want? Intuition? The Force? Heh. Adding a more noticeable attack message wouldn't the game a better place. It's an OOC nuance you're talking about, one that be redundant. You dig?
I'm all for any change that makes the game easier for sight-impaired players, especially when it's such a minor change with a potentially big impact to those players. I've witnessed a session played played through a screen-reader, and can only say my hat's off to those players for managing to keep up with the spam. Our eyes are trained to scan and pick through written information throughout our lives, in a way hearing can never truly match.
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 09, 2013, 02:25:15 PMThere is no coded malfunction here. It DOES tell you you're being attacked. There's ALWAYS a message. What do you want? Intuition? The Force? Heh. Adding a more noticeable attack message wouldn't the game a better place. It's an OOC nuance you're talking about, one that be redundant. You dig?
Simmer down. It's one line of text that might be useless and redundant to you, but clearly isn't to other players. Unless you specifically get off on PK'ing the blind or otherwise sight-impaired, I really don't see a reason for anyone being against this. It changes nothing about the outcome of a fight, and the adrenaline factor is there regardless, as is the confusion factor that ensues from the spamfest that usually follows an attack. It's just a heads-up that's easier for someone using a screen-reader to catch, in a sea of text. Someone AFK or not paying attention won't benefit from this any more than they do from the rest of the attack spam Ginka spits out after combat begins.
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 09, 2013, 04:25:11 PM
Unless you specifically get off on PK'ing the blind or otherwise sight-impaired, I really don't see a reason for anyone being against this.
You did not just tell me to simmer down with that surly retort, your Lordship. We can argue THAT off the forums.
Back on topic, I agreed with Seeker and said I was
unconvinced.
Quote from: Yummri on November 08, 2013, 04:32:34 PM
We could set up a trigger for that line to send a beep to alert us to combat so we can skip ahead to what is happening.
Since we can do that now and there already is a message, I find adding another message redundant. More spam for an already spammy situation.
I like the extra line.
Sometimes things get lost in spam. Especially when moving in a group.
I think an extra line is a little extra without going overboard. It's not a flashing neon sign. It's just a pause so you can catch it.
Quote from: Barzalene on November 09, 2013, 05:19:06 PM
I like the extra line.
Sometimes things get lost in spam. Especially when moving in a group.
I think an extra line is a little extra without going overboard. It's not a flashing neon sign. It's just a pause so you can catch it.
Quote from: Yummri on November 08, 2013, 04:32:34 PM
We could set up a trigger for that line to send a beep to alert us to combat so we can skip ahead to what is happening.
You can do that exactly, client side.
This is a great idea, especially since it seems like it'd be easy, and would really help visually impaired players enjoy the game.
I'm all for visually impaired players being able to enjoy the game more easily! I like this idea - generally speaking, I like any idea which improves accessibility for people who aren't sighted.
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 09, 2013, 04:48:19 PMSince we can do that now and there already is a message, I find adding another message redundant. More spam for an already spammy situation.
Setting up triggers is complicated for many players. There is no specific attack message when you're attacked, it cuts straight to the combat lines, which vary in messages and make setting up such triggers doable but tedious. Another line of text would be redundant to most of us, but helpful to those using screen-readers. Solution? Implement it as a toggle. That way if you're so concerned about spam that the very thought of a single redundant line of text keeps you up at night, you can toggle it off.
Personally speaking, I tend to despise redundancy with a passion. In this instance however, it's simply a matter of understanding that while such a line of text might be redundant for me, it isn't so for others. Meaning it still serves a purpose.
And yes, when you come off like a smartass, you can expect a similar response from others. You've been around long enough to know that, especially when making light of an issue that affects some player's ability to play and enjoy the game as you do. You dig?
Here's an idea - why not play a sound? The mud *beeps* when things die, so why not play a different noise when combat is initiated?
This could be turned off for people who are sighted or don't want to use the feature.
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 09, 2013, 04:48:19 PM
Quote from: Yummri on November 08, 2013, 04:32:34 PM
We could set up a trigger for that line to send a beep to alert us to combat so we can skip ahead to what is happening.
Since we can do that now and there already is a message, I find adding another message redundant. More spam for an already spammy situation.
\
I specifically said in this thread there wasn't a message unless you're watching others fight. For you yourself, there is no message, you just suddenly get hit. Which would be okay(for people who don't have vision problems at least), if there weren't instances like Brief Combat where you wont see anything at all if a strike misses. You could be fighting a mekillot and never even know it. Which, like someone else pointed out, people with vision impairment pretty much HAVE to use 'Brief combat' to alleviate screen scroll for their Screen-Readers.
I have a question, do you find the "The tall muscular man attacks the short, burly woman!" That already occurs to be too spammy? Is that extra line cluttering and annoying your experience? Because odds are you, like me, never gave a shit about it.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 09, 2013, 06:41:02 PMI have a question, do you find the "The tall muscular man attacks the short, burly woman!" That already occurs to be too spammy? Is that extra line cluttering and annoying your experience? Because odds are you, like me, never gave a shit about it.
Exactly. Look at it this way, ShaLeah... When you get attacked, everyone else in the room gets spammed about it already. Why should you be a special exception to that spam, when that very line is helpful to others in ways it's irrelevant to you?
Quote from: LauraMars on November 09, 2013, 06:06:21 PM
Here's an idea - why not play a sound? The mud *beeps* when things die, so why not play a different noise when combat is initiated?
This could be turned off for people who are sighted or don't want to use the feature.
The beep is a setting in your client, every client I've ever seen only has one spot for such sound files. Arm just tells your client to beep when something dies/someone beeps you. Certain clients, like Mudlet, don't even have a beep.
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 09, 2013, 07:14:22 PM
Look at it this way, ShaLeah... When you get attacked, everyone else in the room gets spammed about it already. Why should you be a special exception to that spam, when that very line is helpful to others in ways it's irrelevant to you?
ShaLeah never asked to be "a special exception to that spam". Putting words in other people's mouths so that you can argue with what you are trying to
make them say is absolutely disingenuous.
It diminishes the credibility of any merit your argument might otherwise have held.
Quote from: Ouroboros
And yes, when you come off like a smartass, you can expect a similar response from others.
Seeker
Yes, because me being stuck behind lines of rp or movement spam and having to read every line with no warning of being attacked or by what. Or if any of the people my character would rush to defend as soon as they were attacked is entirely fair and realistic to the game.
Don't add a little echo which is simple to level the playing field for everyone in general. This echo doesn't take away from that adrenaline rush as its still a surprise to be attacked, its just a clear indicator that you were and changes nothing of the life and death situation that you are in except to draw greater attention to that fact.
There is not message right now drawing my attention to this. So by the time I get to combat many rounds has already passed and that slows my reaction time to what is happening.
A simple line of You're being attacked or even just (name) is being attacked, if not by who or what. This is a very simple line to allow a sound. With less chance of things going wrong because it is a short and defined alert. It adds one line exta to allow for a better reaction time for everyone.
-Addition- And my client doesn't beep when anything dies. But that is what I'd use the alert for. The proble is the first line of combat varies based on damage and what is attacking you and with what it is using. So making a trigger for the irst line of combat is near impossible. When one line fixes the whole problem.
I still think this helps more than just the VI players. But I am fully behind the idea of it being a toggle if it has to be, to allow for more people to be happy with it.
If not a toggle...then just set up a trigger to omit it from your output. (sorry I couldn't help it and I am joking)
It's a good alert to throw in.
There's not really anything to be argued here. This is an online text game. In real life, in most cases, you can be sure you know the instant BEFORE a fight actually starts whether you are not the target. This serves as the premonition we have in real life.
It's a good idea, and I support adding the alert.
But it wouldn't be the GDB without a dumb argument.
That's ... not really a good thing.
I looked at the code, and the message exists, and having 'brief combat' on specifically removes this message. Are you guys saying unanimously that brief combat should not hide this message?
I don't see what it would hurt, having brief combat allow the message through.
If it would help someone be able to play the game, why not?
Quote from: Refugee on November 18, 2013, 12:38:55 PM
I don't see what it would hurt, having brief combat allow the message through.
If it would help someone be able to play the game, why not?
See above. Also, it seems like the kinds thing you'd notice!
Quote from: Morgenes on November 18, 2013, 12:29:23 PM
I looked at the code, and the message exists, and having 'brief combat' on specifically removes this message. Are you guys saying unanimously that brief combat should not hide this message?
It should not. Yes. But are you sure it only goes away with brief combat and is otherwise there? I looked through a lot of logs and didn't see it once when I was being attacked.
Maybe I had brief combat on, I'm not sure. I'll check it out later today.
I have seen a message for when someone else is attacked.
I have never seen this message when -I- personally am attacked by anything. With brief combat or without it. And that is the one that would be helpful and is needed.
Same for me. I see the message when other people are attacked by other things. I do not see a message when I am being attacked by anything.
If it helps, I run combat without brief mode, so this isn't just the case of brief removing the message.
Quote from: Yummri on November 18, 2013, 01:18:21 PM
I have seen a message for when someone else is attacked.
I have never seen this message when -I- personally am attacked by anything. With brief combat or without it.
This is my experience as well.
Here's what you see if someone else is being attacked:
The Sparring Circle [S]
This is a circle in which to spar.
The sturdy, square-headed man is here.
The freckled, skinny youth is here.
The tall, muscular woman is here.
The sturdy, square-headed man attacks the tall, muscular woman.
The tall, muscular woman swiftly dodges the sturdy, square-headed man's hit.
The tall, muscular woman swiftly dodges the sturdy, square-headed man's hit.
This is what you see if you attack somebody else:
The Sparring Circle [S]
This is a circle in which to spar.
The sturdy, square-headed man is here.
The freckled, skinny youth is here.
The tall, muscular woman is here.
>kill youth
The freckled, skinny youth swiftly dodges your hit.
The freckled, skinny youth swiftly dodges your hit.
This is what you see if somebody else attacks you:
The Sparring Circle [S]
This is a circle in which to spar.
The sturdy, square-headed man is here.
The freckled, skinny youth is here.
The tall, muscular woman is here.
You swiftly dodge the freckled, skinny youth's hit.
You swiftly dodge the freckled, skinny youth's hit.
This has been the case for as long as I have been playing.
For clarity, are these pcs or npcs?
They are pcs.
It's the same for npcs vs pcs and npcs vs npcs though.
Yeah its the same for everything.
Ok, I read the code wrong, brief combat shows the 'You attack...' and '... attacks you' messages (it doesn't hide it as I originally said).
I've verified that if the 'kill' command is used everyone gets the appropriate message if they have brief combat on.
If you have a log that shows combat being initiated by the kill command with you having 'brief combat' on and you don't get the 'xxxx attacks you' message, submit a request with the log.
I now remember that was added specifically for this reason. If you're not seeing miss messages, you may not realize you've entered combat, and therefore we added the extra message about being attacked.
If you guys feel that everyone should see this message, regardless of brief status, that's an easy fix too.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 19, 2013, 03:58:22 PM
If you guys feel that everyone should see this message, regardless of brief status, that's an easy fix too.
My vote is that you should be able to see the message regardless of brief status.
I don't like brief combat, and personally will rarely use it, but a '.... attacks you' message is something I'd really appreciate!
Thanks, Morgenes!
I think this message should be seen reguardless of brief being on or off. It's helpful to most people, who don't like to use brief as well as to the people that do.
I'm down with seeing it all the time.
yes for seeing it all the time.
I will highlight the crap out of that string with my client.
Another vote for "display always" here too. Thanks Morg!
Display always please.
Please display all the time. Thank you for working on this.
I also agree with displaying always regardless of brief. What a great discussion this thread was, btw :)