So something happened to me just now and it left me reeling a bit...
I woke up a couple hours ago, and i decided to sit down and perhaps try something new. I won't mention the name, but I decided to try another mud that was apparently somewhat role-play heavy. Someone recommended it to me a while back and I felt adventurous. I took the time to make an account, log in, design a character and make a description before exploring the game. There was a lot of OOC chatting and outright conversations in this game on top of the IC so it didn't take long for some people to find me and begin showing me around. Now along the way someone made a comment. Basically they thought my character was what I guess the equivalent of what some people think is an F-me PC here (a stupid term in general but that's another thread). At first I was thinking, well it is a fantasy setting but maybe i missed something, I guess my character had some scars but maybe there was something more i was missing, pocks or perhaps a crooked nose. So i asked for some advice...
Apparently the problem was not that my character was lacked disfigurations but rather because my character was black. :-X
Now, I'm of mixed heritage myself in RL, latin/black so my characters are all generally darker skinned people just because that is what comes natural to me i suppose. It also happens to fit well with the desert world here in Arm. Not that i haven't tried to play fair skinned, red-haired people once or twice ( i mean who doesn't want to pretend to be Nyr once in a while? :-*) it just happens that it is not what i commonly make. It is something i never really put much thought about either before. However to them I guess it was one black character in a sea of white ones. Well okay. I love contrasts myself, darker colors on fairer colors or dark skin with light eyes, stuff like that. At which point someone mentioned that it was unrealistic. Well okay. Clearly, they've never been to the Dominican Republic or maybe seen some of Michael Ealy's movies. It was probably not what they meant with unrealistic since at that point it degraded to downright racist comments so I promptly left. I guess i took for granted the fact that people in Zalanthas can be born with all colors of skin, hair and eyes and every cool mutation in between. I took for granted that hate is due to species and not the color of your skin. In reality I shouldn't have, I should have known better but this is really the only RPI I've really played for months and months at a time. The other muds I've played for any extended period of time have been one where i play a green lizardman and another where i play a red dragon. Most muds/games I float around in have no RP at all.
It really made me think how awesome the Zalanthas setting we have here is and its not only on lack of racism but also views on sexism and homosexuality as well. A year ago or more I noticed a tough ass kuraci man flirting and propositioning a feminine male prostitute PC. I'm Canadian, my city hosts the gay pride parade, i really didn't think twice about that scene but now i regret not sending kudos to both those players because while stuff like that is common and normal in this mud's setting, it is not that common to see in other so called RP heavy muds. At least right now I don't think it is? Feel free to send me a recommendation for another mud where it might be though, for next time when I feel like trying something new, which probably won't be any time soon. Anyways I just really felt like giving everyone, players and staff alike kudos for generally role-playing the wonderful setting so well that after so many years it make me take what is sometimes just unfortunately exceptional role-playing for granted. It is just great to be able to see such a variety of characters, of color, race, gender and sexuality and for it to be considered normal. Besides the setting also ensures there is always something else about character that is more fun to RP hating on anyways.
Seriously though kudos to all, great setting and amazing role-playing all around. :D
tl;dr: I was reminded today of how exceptional the setting and roleplay in this mud actually is in comparison to other places.
Honestly, of all the internet games I've played, Armageddon has the best playerbase. Sure, like any group we have the occasional twink, doomsayer or whatever, but as a whole we're pretty darn awesome.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that shit on another game. Terrible.
lolwut
Was that mud like all ... ice and northern territories kinda stuff? Because I'm trying "TRYING" to find some kind of logical explanation about wtf is going on. So far I'm only guessing that the entire theme of the mud is all about vikings and stuff. In which case it would kind of make some sense. Still, definitely something that's worthwhile to just gloss over, I guess.
No. It was just a fantasy setting. Not so much tolkien, and middle earth but still elves and orcs. The human settlements were spread around and the climate i started in seemed warmer.
Sorry, i guess i wasn't clear in my original post. I just hit a group of people who were seriously racist. It started innocently enough with someone that seemed to find my character attractive. That however that attracted people who thought i was trying to get attention by making my character black. Which in turn got the attention of some really nasty people. As for what those last few people found so unrealistic? At first I really though it was just the fact my character had darker skin with lighter eyes, so i was really trying to explain to them it exists. But no, it wasn't that, what they found so unrealistic is that a white person would find a black person attractive and that they would get together with them at all, in the game setting or otherwise. ::)
It only seemed like a small handful of them though but their ooc prejudices clearly affected the way they behaved in the game. They were planning to Pk my character as they put it, they wanted to lynch him. Seriously. :-\ I don't know if that is a common occurrence there or i just hit a couple trolls who might get banned later but I wasn't staying to find out. It just made me appreciate the Zalanthian setting a lot more and the thought process that went behind the role-playing rules we have here specifically against racism, sexism and homosexuality. I do remember for example in another game where the admin himself said to two players who were playing homosexual character, that he would allow it but he wouldn't stop the several other players that were harassing them, killing them and just plain griefing them because they were allowed to think their actions disgusting. I mean it is not like people don't OOC chat here or have their RL prejudices but i love the fact that, thanks to the setting/rules and thanks to the amazing role-playing, the experience I encountered in that game (granted mostly due to their ooc chatting) is something I've never had to deal with in-game here.
The few times I have seen any sort of prejudice here (usually homophobia or sexism, because not even the most smarmy of trolls can get away with his character justifying racism on skin color), the players present besides the instigator usually smack said instigator down.
The players of Arm "love" people who are prejudiced about color/sex/orientation. The amount of 'fun' first verbal, then tricksting, and finally physical they end up having with prejudiced people is better then any HRPT. I've seen a few newbies who expressed some gender bias, or homophobia, the entire frigging tavern pounced him. From templarate to beggars. I felt almost sorry for the guy. Though the guy learned quick, I think.
Quote from: Blur on September 07, 2013, 01:32:09 AM
Sorry, i guess i wasn't clear in my original post. I just hit a group of people who were seriously racist. It started innocently enough with someone that seemed to find my character attractive. That however that attracted people who thought i was trying to get attention by making my character black. Which in turn got the attention of some really nasty people. As for what those last few people found so unrealistic? At first I really though it was just the fact my character had darker skin with lighter eyes, so i was really trying to explain to them it exists. But no, it wasn't that, what they found so unrealistic is that a white person would find a black person attractive and that they would get together with them at all, in the game setting or otherwise. ::)
It only seemed like a small handful of them though but their ooc prejudices clearly affected the way they behaved in the game. They were planning to Pk my character as they put it, they wanted to lynch him. Seriously. :-\ I don't know if that is a common occurrence there or i just hit a couple trolls who might get banned later but I wasn't staying to find out.
If you're feeling particularly civic minded you might consider sending a heads up to the staff of the game about it. Maybe it'll do something, or maybe it won't, but even if the game has policies against that sort of thing they can't be enforced if the admins don't know about it.
I think I'd like to invite those players to Armageddon, as a special treat.
Or, perhaps more grammatically, "as special treats." ;D
I agree with a lot of the original post's thoughts. However, I will warn them that the sexism compartment is one that is debated at times here.
but yeah, we're basically the best MUD I've ever seen when it comes to having a mature playerbase that understands the setting.
I've seen other good playerbases... when I used to play SOI and such, that was also quite good. I dunno what SOI is like now.
The lack of skin-color/gender/sexuality bias in Armageddon was one of the things that drew me to it and kept me playing. I often forget that these prejudices are prevalent in fantasy worlds - the first time I saw Game of Thrones was a bit of a shock.
I'm sorry about your experience on that other mud. If you ever see that kind of thing here, report it and it will be dealt with. Sometimes these people are jerks, but usually they just missed that part of the documentation.
Your characters are all green to me.
::)
However, feel free to give all of those pasty pale ivory skinned whiteys in game crap.
Because really, that is unrealistic for this setting, and they are mutants.
You aren't hating them because they are white, you are hating them because they are muties and/or creepy hermit shut-ins who never see the sun in a harsh desert world, which is also icky.
Seriously. In a desert world, pale people are freaks, or mutants, or worse.
I've always been a little disappointed when ivory-skinned guys and gals are treated like they're normal, or worse, the ideal.
Meh.
Genetic adjustments to skin tone could take tens of thousands of years, if not hundreds of thousands. We don't know what Zalanthas was like even 2000 years ago, nor do we know that the current population of (demi) humans necessarily originated from the area known as the Known World. Some of them may have come from milder regions of the planet.
this is like racism against white people. Just let them play. Who cares with her skin color is, or if it's realistic to the setting of the world? Just let them play. In the end, our enjoyment of their character does not come from their skin color, it comes from their portrayal of their character in the world.
That said, even genetically pale-skinned people tend to darken somewhat under frequent UV exposure. I think it's fair to draw conclusions about the lifestyle of a naturally pale-skinned person who's skin remains pale.
I agree with 7DV
Any sort of judgements based on skin color should pretty much go out the window, be that favoritism or negative judgment. This is a world with all sorts of mutations, I don't see a problem with people making their character's skin any color they wish even if that is green and purple skin colors. Stranger skin colors might be considered rare and unique but it shouldn't be impossible to find once in a while and should not be a basic for treatment. Again, I've had a couple fair skinned characters myself so I'm all for just letting people play what they feel like. My characters have no concept of how the sun affects skin after all, so discrimination in any way on skin color would be as silly as discriminating on a character because they have curly hair over straight hair. To me and my character's it is just the way they were born. Now start adding fur, wings, tails or scales and we might have another story but even that is quite tolerated in most places.
There are so many great and interesting things to hate someone for in this mud there is no need to discriminate against characters based on their skin color, regardless of whatever that color might be.
I get the realism argument that typical commoners ought to have sun-damaged skin because of the toil of everyday life and the harshness of the environment. However, the helpfile (http://armageddonmud.org/help/view/Humans) on humans says that their skin tone varies tremendously, which certainly sounds like it includes fair-skinned people. I suspect that this is a design choice to give players latitude in making their human characters; we get to make our humans reflect whatever RL race we choose. Even if pale skin is unrealistic, I don't think there is any harm in indulging in a bit of fantasy. This is hardly the only instance of being unrealistic when it comes to how people draw up their characters.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 13, 2013, 06:12:57 PM
That said, even genetically pale-skinned people tend to darken somewhat under frequent UV exposure. I think it's fair to draw conclusions about the lifestyle of a naturally pale-skinned person who's skin remains pale.
Or you can just mistreat them for the see-through shirt they're wearing, or the very tight tight pants, or maybe the super short skirt, or what about those adorable quirri tailed thongs?
Seriously, just stay away from skin color unless it's like green or violet or something ridiculous. Normally the people who play pale skinned are either playing an Fme, which, in that case, there are normally quite a list of things you can make fun of them for (mainly clothing) or they just don't care about the sunlight and pigments and their effects on the two.
Easy there. I chose my wording pretty carefully.
I would like to see more pasty people rocking parasols or wide brimmed hats, IG. I wish there were some non-frilly parasols, though. Like a battle parasol. Or one of those frames that sticks up from your back and holds a miniature awning over your head.
Also, it occurs to me that people who wear the same clothes every single day, on a planet with intense sunlight, are going to be sporting some ridiculous tan lines when they take those clothes off or change outfits.
There is no discrimination based on skin color in Zalanthas.
There can be discrimination based on skin health. Sun-damaged skin is indicative of commoners, laborers, etc. Pristine skin is indicative of the upper crust and, especially, the nobility. There are nobles with dark skin and there are commoners with light skin.
Tulukis tend to have lighter skin than Allanakkis, but there are plenty of exceptions in either city so it isn't something that would gain a lot of notice and it wouldn't be evidence that someone was from the wrong area.
Now I'm wanting to mastercraft a parasol which can be used as a piercing weapon and tainted.
Old school Russian spy style.
Quote from: Wug on September 13, 2013, 07:08:28 PM
There is no discrimination based on skin color in Zalanthas.
There can be discrimination based on skin health. Sun-damaged skin is indicative of commoners, laborers, etc. Pristine skin is indicative of the upper crust and, especially, the nobility. There are nobles with dark skin and there are commoners with light skin.
Tulukis tend to have lighter skin than Allanakkis, but there are plenty of exceptions in either city so it isn't something that would gain a lot of notice and it wouldn't be evidence that someone was from the wrong area.
When I see ivory skinned people, my characters generally notice. Be it a positive notice or a negative notice.
"Your skin never sees the sun, or it sees the sun and doesn't react like normal skin. You are either some prim prissy fluffy richer, or you are a strange mutant."
"Your skin never sees the sun, or it sees the sun and doesn't react like normal skin. You are wealthy, well kept, and hot. I love you, or you are a strange mutant."
Unless I am required to do this...(Then I guess I will.)
"Your skin never sees the sun, or it sees the sun and doesn't react like normal skin. I will pretend not to notice and completely ignore realism in this specific case, due to OOC rules."
Other then odd colour or lack of sun I never really think of skin on the people, But let it be race or inking or accent then the judging starts icly.
The documentation for various races (but especially human and elf) talk about skin color and how much variation there is with commonly seen skin tones, including those on the pale end of the spectrum. So I don't think any guesswork is needed. It's right there in the docs.
Quote from: flurry on September 18, 2013, 11:45:18 AM
The documentation for various races (but especially human and elf) talk about skin color and how much variation there is with commonly seen skin tones, including those on the pale end of the spectrum. So I don't think any guesswork is needed. It's right there in the docs.
Hmm. You are correct.
I do not agree with it. But, I will adhere to it. Fair enough.
Characters are still allowed to have preferences, right? Or to think that very pale or unnatural colors are mutations?
Just like eye or hair color... eh, maybe I'll just have to concede this argument.
Hair I don't care
I and maybe I'm wrong, look at green skin and red eyes and think Ewww mutant!
I don't understand what's so hard about this.
Two things affect skin tone:
Natural skin color
Sun exposure
There is no stigma against people with naturally pale (or any other Earthly shade) skin.
However, when someone has naturally pale skin, it becomes easier to notice if they've endured relatively little sun exposure (they remain pale). This is a lifestyle indicator just like any other physical lifestyle indicator.
I think it's fair to have opinions about other characters' lifestyles.
It may not be fair to use "pale", "milk-skin", and such as an insult, though. Plenty of people with similar sun-free lifestyles have naturally darker skin, and thus it's not a very good stereotype.
You can think whatever you want and your PCs can have a wide range of preferences, of course.
But if docs tell you that there's a wide variation in skin tones, then it is assumed that the majority of people would not think as someone with fair or pale skin as a mutant.
Green skin is not part of the "including those on the pale end of the spectrum." variation stated by the docs.
Remember the "commonly seen" part of the doc. So by definition of it, pale skin would be common enough to not be considered a mutation.
So yes, you could probably declare that a pale-skinned woman spends most of her time sheltered from the sun, but it would definitely not be considered a mutation.
I still think someone on the far end of the pale spectrum, especially in the south or among desert tribes, would be looked at as a mutant. Or at least as unusual.
Unless they were a noble, bc nobles are NEVER mutants, amirite.
I'm all for pale-skinned people. However, if they have pale skin, and they are constantly out in the sun (such as hunters, tribal people, farmers, grebbers), and they don't cover themselves head to toe, then I -will- assume there's something "wrong" with them. There is no sunscreen on Zalanthas. Frequently exposed skin in a harsh desert world would not stay pale for very long. It would either tan - or burn.
Quote from: Delirium on September 18, 2013, 01:01:19 PM
Unless they were a noble, bc nobles are NEVER mutants, amirite.
Or maybe... they're ALL mutants. Inbred mutants.
I think it is pretty basic.
OOC'ly there is stigma associated with judging anyone for anything to do with the color of their skin. You can't make assumptions about their lifestyle, their genetic constants, or their habits just because they are a certain color.
Because of this OOC stigma, we have a steadfast IC rule against making any assumptions or judgments against anyone in game based on the color of their skin. Purple people are exactly the same as tanned desert people.
I don't agree with this stance, I however do understand why it is what it is, even if I think it should be changed because realistically it makes no sense.
No one is saying that purple skinned people aren't mutant freaks.
People are saying that pale skinned people are not mutant freaks.
Players who want to play with a taboo against pale skin have always struck me as letting RL stigma seep into the game. Using "milk-skin" as an insult strikes me as suspiciously similar to when I myself have been called ghastly or vampire-like when I haven't had much sun in a few months. It all strikes me as a very modern-day Earth, Western fashion and "health" sensibility to take pale skin as something ugly or mutated.
Pale is fine, even if the PC spends a lot of time outdoors. Allanaki fashion generally calls for most of the body to be covered up. Zalanthan desert gear tends to cover every inch of skin, including the face. In the rare cases when you have a pale-skinned character who spends all of his time running around out in the desert naked, okay, maybe you might want to hang a lantern on that and use it as an RP point. Otherwise, please no.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 18, 2013, 02:24:18 PM
No one is saying that purple skinned people aren't mutant freaks.
Quote from: Wug on September 13, 2013, 07:08:28 PM
There is no discrimination based on skin color in Zalanthas.
Whether or not mutant skin colors was included in the context of that statement is unclear.
Of course, I believe it was not meant to be.
I think there are two discussions here. The OP's question, and another interesting one about how different lifestyles should "look" in your mdesc and sdesc.
The OP is asking if there are ethnic appearance and if there is discrimination against them -- to this, Wug said no and that is indeed the policy. But that policy extends beyond skin tones, into shapes of faces, eyes, etc, which we on Earth associate with races.
My opinion on the second point: There is more than color to take into account here. A pale man, with blisters on his skin, or scars, or dirt or oil caking his skin, or any other conceivable quality of "ruggedness" can be safely assumed to be a wastelander given the valid points above on desert gear covering every inch of skin.
Desert gear protects again sun and sand, but not the other hazards one meets travelling -- sweat, body oil, bleeding wounds if applicable, plant matter, muscle strain and the effects it has, muscle bulk, whatever.
I give allowances to people for things that are idiosyncratic. I don't jump to calling them a mutant over one feature of the above.
If someone's PC has numerous features that go against an outdoorsy life: pale, dainty, soft-skinned, unblemished, unscarred, youthful, AND with well-kept hair to boot, then there IS a problem. It is unrealistic, and all of us players are supposed to point this out in our RP. The best thing to do is ask. Look for their answer ICly, don't make assumptions. People often think this shit out in advance.
For those of us who may feel self-conscious that our characters look too frilly for what they do -- don't worry about it. I put a lot of weight into cultural and ecological differences, too. A hunting life in shadier, less windy, less sun-blasted lands should and does look different.
The conventions that I've seen in game have been well done for the most part. I rarely see anyone "breaking" the above realism standards, if you could even call them that. To each their own. People get creative in this game, and if someone wants to be different, it isn't our place to be critical on the GDB.
Quote from: Desertman on September 18, 2013, 02:39:55 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 18, 2013, 02:24:18 PM
No one is saying that purple skinned people aren't mutant freaks.
Quote from: Wug on September 13, 2013, 07:08:28 PM
There is no discrimination based on skin color in Zalanthas.
Today is a victory for mutant rights everywhere.
Let's face it, Armageddon is a low-tan fantasy world.
More and more we do a phenomenal job on keeping our ic hate lively and ooc out of the game
Pale and purple included.
Actually I had no question. I suppose I just wanted to rant out a bad experience and wanted to give the game kudos for being designed in a way to avoid such experiences here. Something which Wug in turn re-enforced and confirmed.
As to what others brought up on the thread. Since there are many variations to skin color to me skin condition and health would probably be a better indicator of quality of life than the outright color. You aren't a racist for thinking fair skin tans under the sun or is an indication they might be a night dwelling rogue or perhaps a rich person who can stay out of the sun. Interestingly enough,while their skin tone could mean something, it can still mean something good or bad, to think it is just one or the other would be a stereotype.
Also, it does not make you a racist for finding fair skin more attractive than darker skin or vice versa. There is nothing wrong with having preferences and it is no different then having preferences for anything else on someone's body, after all some people like bigger noses, bigger breasts, bigger crotches while others might just prefer things more modest and others still might not give a damn and just be interested in what the person is like. However, there is a difference between having preferences and thinking a certain physical quality is superior/inferior to another. That having a certain physical quality or not having it makes a person sub-human and not worthy of living and prospering or that gives someone a right to degrade, humiliate, discriminate and even kill that person for having such a quality. All these thing which people sometimes just simplified as just Hate.
Hate exists in Zalanthas for things such as having pointy ears or having round ears, but it doesn't exist in this game for skin color as it does in RL.
Anyways I feel like I stepped on a bit of a landmine here which was not my intention. In all my time here racism based on skin color is not something I have ever experienced here which again made me completely forget for a moment that people brought their OOC prejudices into other games. That is a tribute to the awesomeness of this mud and the people who inhabit it which I think is really kudos worthy. :)
Quote from: Blur on September 18, 2013, 07:06:07 PM
Actually I had no question. I suppose I just wanted to rant out a bad experience and wanted to give the game kudos for being designed in a way to avoid such experiences here. Something which Wug in turn re-enforced and confirmed.
As to what others brought up on the thread. Since there are many variations to skin color to me skin condition and health would probably be a better indicator of quality of life than the outright color. You aren't a racist for thinking fair skin tans under the sun or is an indication they might be a night dwelling rogue or perhaps a rich person who can stay out of the sun. Interestingly enough,while their skin tone could mean something, it can still mean something good or bad, to think it is just one or the other would be a stereotype.
Also, it does not make you a racist for finding fair skin more attractive than darker skin or vice versa. There is nothing wrong with having preferences and it is no different then having preferences for anything else on someone's body, after all some people like bigger noses, bigger breasts, bigger crotches while others might just prefer things more modest and others still might not give a damn and just be interested in what the person is like. However, there is a difference between having preferences and thinking a certain physical quality is superior/inferior to another. That having a certain physical quality or not having it makes a person sub-human and not worthy of living and prospering or that gives someone a right to degrade, humiliate, discriminate and even kill that person for having such a quality. All these thing which people sometimes just simplified as just Hate.
Hate exists in Zalanthas for things such as having pointy ears or having round ears, but it doesn't exist in this game for skin color as it does in RL.
Anyways I feel like I stepped on a bit of a landmine here which was not my intention. In all my time here racism based on skin color is not something I have ever experienced here which again made me completely forget for a moment that people brought their OOC prejudices into other games. That is a tribute to the awesomeness of this mud and the people who inhabit it which I think is really kudos worthy. :)
In game I suspend my preferences and willingly have sex with any skin color. Out of game, I guess, I just find lighter or tan people more attractive than the ebony shade.
almond shaped eyes used to indicate elven blood, but now I see them everywhere...is this just new people who don't realize what they're doing or crafty old timers who are hinting at a possible breed?
Quote from: armacc on October 30, 2013, 02:18:57 PM
almond shaped eyes used to indicate elven blood, but now I see them everywhere...is this just new people who don't realize what they're doing or crafty old timers who are hinting at a possible breed?
Find out IC.
I don't recall reading anything in the documenations that states that almond eyes are a trait only exhibited by elves, and therefore also by half-elves. Sounds more that people are letting their d&d preconceptions bleed in when they shouldn't.
Yeah, humans can have almond shaped eyes in real life. Don't see why it'd be strange in the game.
From the docs...
QuoteElven ears are always pointed, and the shape of the eyes is always that of an almond.
So, maybe it doesn't say humans can't have the same shape, but it would at least give you pause if someone did have almond shaped eyes, wouldn't it?
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on October 30, 2013, 02:22:17 PM
I don't recall reading anything in the documenations that states that almond eyes are a trait only exhibited by elves, and therefore also by half-elves. Sounds more that people are letting their d&d preconceptions bleed in when they shouldn't.
It's there, though.
QuoteEye color among elves, however, is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and the shape of the eyes is always that of an almond.
So yeah. Distinctly elven.
Almond-shaped is sort of vague anyways. Aren't most peoples eyes almond shaped?
(http://www.audreydao.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/eyeliner.jpg)
Almond eyes do not always mean an elf, but an elf always has almond eyes.
All elves have almond-shaped eyes =/= all almond-shaped eyes belong to elves.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on October 30, 2013, 03:53:32 PM
All elves have almond-shaped eyes =/= all almond-shaped eyes belong to elves.
I cannot tell a lie, when I see almond eyes in game (because ALL elves have them like that) I always think elf blood.
The mul helpfile says they have "slanted" eyes.
Is there a huge difference between "slanted" and "almond?"
I sort of see dwarves, elves, and muls all having sort of the same eyes, just like they all have pointed ears.
There's no reason humans can't exhibit almond eyes.
It's probably common in game, because when people are crawling their brain for descriptive phrases to write their character, it's one of the more common descriptors in literature.
Quote from: Kronibas on October 31, 2013, 04:16:38 AM
The mul helpfile says they have "slanted" eyes.
Is there a huge difference between "slanted" and "almond?"
I sort of see dwarves, elves, and muls all having sort of the same eyes, just like they all have pointed ears.
Yes. If you look at the above diagram slanted eyes would be the Asian ones.
"almond" shaped eyes are often considered to have the "perfect" proportion for eyes in art.. So it's definitely not something only people with elf blood in them would have. It's actually one of the most common eye shape there is.
The same with slanted eyes, many races of non-asian descent have slanted eyes. Lots and lots and lots of Hispanic and African people have slanted eyes.
So in a world like Zalanthas, slanted and almond shaped eyes would definitely not be uncommon in full-bloodied humans.
As a pale white gay irl, I, for one, relish the opportunity to roleplay as a pale white gay in the desert.
Maybe this could go in the documentation if accepted?
I like asian, islander-tribal, sorts of eyes and would love to add those to an acceptable list of human characteristics.
Quote from: i love toilets on October 31, 2013, 04:08:40 PM
Maybe this could go in the documentation if accepted?
I like asian, islander-tribal, sorts of eyes and would love to add those to an acceptable list of human characteristics.
They are acceptable. You just can't use the word "asian" because that is real-world specific to denote a particular race of humans that don't live in Zalanthas. The word "islander" wouldn't work either, because there might or might not be an island in Zalanthas, and if it were, it might or might not have a native population whose eyes would have a particular look that you want to convey via text.
You can describe asian eyes in the game, and make them your character's eyes. They have a pronounced epicanthic fold. That is the thing that makes asian eyes, asian eyes.
Wait... I can have green screen?
Quote from: Zerero on November 17, 2013, 12:26:18 PM
Wait... I can have green screen?
You can have green skin or can have a blue screen. Pick and choose.
But yes, skin-color mutations are acceptable, so long as documented in your background. Most any cosmetic mutation is acceptable, as per documentation (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Mutant%20Roles), as long as it doesn't offer some coded benefit. For that, you need a special app. If you want a character with razor-sharp pincher hands that function as piercing weapons, put in a special app (but don't hold your breath). If you want a character with an unnatural skin-color, go right ahead and make them. There's been several well-known characters in the past who had weird skin color (Gibbs, ya rocked!). Just be prepared to follow through with the social implications of being a mutant and you're good to go.
To add on to the topic of fair skin, I can only contribute that when I played a certain albino a decade back, my character notes from staff included something to the effect of "Feel free to give him sunburns if outside too long." So I guess keep that in mind if you're playing someone incredibly pale, as is your prerogative to do so of course.
Do you think only German- and Japanese-Americans were mocked and harassed during WWII, or do you think some Polish-, Austrian-, Swiss-, Chinese-, Korean-, and Philippino-Amercians caught some of that flak too, even if they had no hint of the accused bloodline?
Now consider that your average Zalanthan is less educated and more superstitious than your average '40s American. You are probably 100% correct that people with 0 elf blood could still have almond-shaped eyes, but that doesn't necessarily make the assumption that they might be a breed an OOC one. If you have almond eyes, it could be from elf blood, and your character should probably be prepared for some people to assume as much.
The same could be said for being exceptionally tall, exceptionally wide, big ears, shaved head, etc.
Edited, because it kinda sounded like I found the mocking of German- and Japanese-Americans to be justified. Clearly, I don't.
I diagree entirely. Human have almond-shaped eyes very commonly. I almost think the docs should be changed to slanted eyes.
Well, you could turn it around.
If almond eyes are too common to denote elvish blood, you could still take the opposite to be true:
Now, round eyes or narrow eyes become more attractive to the human supremacists, because they speak against the possibility of breedism, rather than almond eyes speaking for it. Just a thought.
Also, keep in mind that I think almond is not the most common shape for human eyes. I think that would fall to more of a marquise shape, where both sides are roughly equal in point and shape. Almond shaped eyes are more rounded on the outside, more pointed on the inside, like an almond.
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 19, 2013, 03:14:00 AM
Just be prepared to follow through with the social implications of being a mutant and you're good to go.
This reminds of me of a PC in Tuluk years ago that could only be described as an fme furry, complete with boobs and tail. Peoples' reactions to her were
hilarious.
Quote from: Ourla on December 01, 2013, 10:05:43 PM
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 19, 2013, 03:14:00 AM
Just be prepared to follow through with the social implications of being a mutant and you're good to go.
This reminds of me of a PC in Tuluk years ago that could only be described as an fme furry, complete with boobs and tail. Peoples' reactions to her were hilarious.
Wait. It gets better. That cat girl had a threesome with two Tuluki nobles, getting them all force stored. :D
Quote from: Is Friday on December 01, 2013, 11:56:22 PM
Quote from: Ourla on December 01, 2013, 10:05:43 PM
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 19, 2013, 03:14:00 AM
Just be prepared to follow through with the social implications of being a mutant and you're good to go.
This reminds of me of a PC in Tuluk years ago that could only be described as an fme furry, complete with boobs and tail. Peoples' reactions to her were hilarious.
Wait. It gets better. That cat girl had a threesome with two Tuluki nobles, getting them all force stored. :D
Ohmuhguhhhhhh, I forgot about that part! Shenanigans!
I so lurv the sandwich joke that was born from that..
Quote from: Ourla on December 02, 2013, 11:18:06 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on December 01, 2013, 11:56:22 PM
Quote from: Ourla on December 01, 2013, 10:05:43 PM
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 19, 2013, 03:14:00 AM
Just be prepared to follow through with the social implications of being a mutant and you're good to go.
This reminds of me of a PC in Tuluk years ago that could only be described as an fme furry, complete with boobs and tail. Peoples' reactions to her were hilarious.
Wait. It gets better. That cat girl had a threesome with two Tuluki nobles, getting them all force stored. :D
Ohmuhguhhhhhh, I forgot about that part! Shenanigans!
Overall, that was a very unpleasant situation to handle for all involved, especially staff.
liar. you had to handle it through incredulous snickers the entire time
wait, that threesome thing wasn't a joke?
(http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Surprised_Bear_8772.jpg)
Quote from: LauraMars on December 02, 2013, 12:09:33 PM
wait, that threesome thing wasn't a joke?
Nope. And I hope the involved players are still embarrassed and also unable to play sponsored roles in Tuluk 4+ years later.
Uhh.
...What...
My interest has been caught.
Quote from: palomar on December 02, 2013, 12:17:03 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on December 02, 2013, 12:09:33 PM
wait, that threesome thing wasn't a joke?
Nope. And I hope the involved players are still embarrassed and also unable to play sponsored roles in Tuluk 4+ years later.
Eh... Honestly people like to make jokes and shit, but stories like this remind me how incredibly childish and immature a subset of our playerbase can be. It also reminds me how many players seem to be in it for the sexual roleplay and not much else.
I really like to believe the staff now isn't anything like it was four years ago, to allow something like that through character generation makes me wonder why the hell we even have applications.
They probably figured it would be a good lesson for the player in question, as I think they expected the playerbase to more or less hand their ass to them over being an f-me furry, instead of having a threesome with a pair of sponsored roles.
Sometimes things have slipped by staff that are terrible to have in the game (read: furries); this became less common after we developed stronger guidelines on mutant roles and just made a point to stop that sort of nonsense. Strange approvals still happen from time to time (though on a much more minor scale) where we miss a name or concept that is fairly well-known by some folks in the real world, and depending on its immersion-breaking nature, we'll step in and fix it (or hope like hell they die to a scrab or never log back in)--in our defense, we approve nearly 3 or 4 times the amount of apps we used to approve before voting pushes and the new website; we're bound to miss the occasional thing. In the mentioned case above, the mutant should not have been approved and the whole thing should have been sent to the scrap yard with a judicious reply of "really, this isn't that kind of game, you should never make a mutant furry sort of thing, and if you resubmit with minute changes we may as well tell you to try another game." However, it wasn't, and we see what we got. Unfortunately, the issue was compounded by other players disregarding their own documentation for their region...and additionally hiding it from staff by neglecting to report it.
That's why it was unpleasant on all sides. Someone had to grep logs to prove it happened, then send that to relevant staff (it had occurred weeks prior without notice). Clan staff then had to review everything: isn't the setting in Tuluk explanatory? The answer seemed to be "yes": a few assumptions were made that simply were not backed up by documentation, even some documentation that repeated the case over and over. In the end, the choice was made: either way, the characters would've been executed quietly had they engaged in such behavior. Storage was done instead because we weren't going to bother roleplaying out a response to something that absolutely should not have occurred--something that was also omitted from any communication to staff.
Now we have much better guidelines on sponsored roles and we make it very much more clear up front that nobles in Tuluk aren't nobles in Allanak.
That makes me feel better. Thanks Nyr.
Quote from: palomar on December 02, 2013, 12:17:03 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on December 02, 2013, 12:09:33 PM
wait, that threesome thing wasn't a joke?
Nope. And I hope the involved players are still embarrassed and also unable to play sponsored roles in Tuluk 4+ years later.
There's no need to be nasty about it.
I admit it guys it was me.
We need to bring back the fur. Behold the fur revolution.
I think there's plenty of reason to be nasty, imo. :P
Quote from: Nyr on December 02, 2013, 01:57:09 PM
Now we have much better guidelines on sponsored roles and we make it very much more clear up front that nobles in Tuluk aren't nobles in Allanak.
NOT THAT NOBLES IN ALLANAK WOULD DO THAT EITHER!
(with a furry, I mean. I hope.)
Please tell me it was all role-played out at length and not FTB.
Please....
em sensuously flicks her tail about %pale.skinned torso
As someone who played a character who had to flee Tuluk and got assassinated for letting her noble kank her right at the change over who didn't know that that shit wasn't allowed (the sponsored role DID know btw) I have only one thing to say:
(http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-stroke-the-furry-wall-41.png)
I hope there was lots of purring and maybe some retractable claw action or whisker petting.
Just imagine the terrifying mudsex if Arm.2 hadn't been a hilarious pipe dream and those cat-people were a playable option.
We dodged a bullet on that'n.
Just when I think I've seen the strangest the GDB has to throw at me, I stumble on the thread about threesomes with cat-girls.
Niiiiiice.
This thread has just become my favorite.
Quote from: LauraMars on December 02, 2013, 02:02:23 PM
Quote from: palomar on December 02, 2013, 12:17:03 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on December 02, 2013, 12:09:33 PM
wait, that threesome thing wasn't a joke?
Nope. And I hope the involved players are still embarrassed and also unable to play sponsored roles in Tuluk 4+ years later.
There's no need to be nasty about it.
I admit it guys it was me.
Was it actually you, or are we doing the Sparticus thing? Cause I've always wanted to do the Sparticus thing. I was kinda figuring I'd do it over gas passing in an elevator, but that circumstance just never seemed to arise so I'll take this.
Quote from: manonfire on December 02, 2013, 06:00:58 PM
Just imagine the terrifying mudsex if Arm.2 hadn't been a hilarious pipe dream and those cat-people were a playable option.
We dodged a bullet on that'n.
Arma 2 cat people were more like upright lions than anthromorphic cat-people.
Quote from: MeTekillot on December 02, 2013, 10:59:24 PM
Quote from: manonfire on December 02, 2013, 06:00:58 PM
Just imagine the terrifying mudsex if Arm.2 hadn't been a hilarious pipe dream and those cat-people were a playable option.
We dodged a bullet on that'n.
Arma 2 cat people were more like upright lions than anthromorphic cat-people.
I don't see this stopping anyone ::)
Watch this topic be closed.
Quote from: MeTekillot on December 02, 2013, 10:59:24 PM
Quote from: manonfire on December 02, 2013, 06:00:58 PM
Just imagine the terrifying mudsex if Arm.2 hadn't been a hilarious pipe dream and those cat-people were a playable option.
We dodged a bullet on that'n.
Arma 2 cat people were more like upright lions than anthromorphic cat-people.
Still, tails and claws and emote purrs deeply as she peers at ~man seductively through her slitted amber orbs
Hmmm... I thought the catgirl thing was funny, maybe something where a few someones should disappear, but that's too funny for me to not laugh at. I'm glad this was brought to my attention. Surprised they were force stored and like other mistakes (though much smaller in comparison) I've witnessed it wasn't just RPed out, assassination and all.
And yes, I am immature and irresponsible, I also am not ashamed of this, though I likely should be. Personally, I think having your noble force-stored would be just about enough of a punishment, the four plus years out thing seems maybe a little extreme.
Note to self: Never, ever make a pass at a Tuluki noble. Good to know.
That makes me curious if even at least one feature of a mutation could be similar to a furred creature. Are tails by themselves, or ears by themselves, like that of some theme-specific animals possible at all, or similarties? The whole file seemed a bit vague to me about what stretches plausibility.
I'm still waiting for the parties involved to own up to this not being FTB.
Come on...own up.
Do it.
Quote from: Desertman on December 03, 2013, 10:35:35 AM
I'm still waiting for the parties involved to own up to this not being FTB.
Come on...own up.
Do it.
They had mudsex with a catgirl for roleplay, asshole.
Quote from: Fujikoma on December 03, 2013, 09:22:00 AMSurprised they were force stored and like other mistakes (though much smaller in comparison) I've witnessed it wasn't just RPed out, assassination and all.
When one hides things from staff and does things that are against the documentation that also should be reported, staff should feel no obligation to enliven that experience with roleplay. I think that in this case and others like it, staff members choose to act in a way that removes the offending variable (PCs not played to documentation played by players not communicating adequately with staff) and move on with supporting other players.
Quote from: Fujikoma on December 03, 2013, 09:22:00 AM[...]the four plus years out thing seems maybe a little extreme.
I think only players are suggesting this, though it should be apparent that mistakes of this magnitude likely have consequences further down the line. It's not just breaking documentation that is an issue, it's the communication problem.
Quote from: thewolfen3 on December 03, 2013, 10:06:32 AM
That makes me curious if even at least one feature of a mutation could be similar to a furred creature. Are tails by themselves, or ears by themselves, like that of some theme-specific animals possible at all, or similarties? The whole file seemed a bit vague to me about what stretches plausibility.
Mutants should adhere to these guidelines (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Mutant%20Roles). The kind of application that was allowed in the past (mentioned above) would be disallowed now except by special application (at which point it'd be denied). The real questions to ask probably aren't "what is plausible?" and "what stretches plausibility?" but "why do you want to have a tail?" or "why do you want furry ears?" or "why do you want to have a character that is more like an animal than a humanoid?" What exactly is this sort of thing adding to your character, and how is it making your character sub-human? How has your character dealt with this mutation knowing that it likely results in diminished social standing?
Generally if your mutation is going to make you look like a furred creature you're going to have to make a strong case for why that should be allowed...and we'll probably deny it.
Ah, yes, I usually document my craziness in my character reports. Speaking of which... I better get on that, I think it's been long enough to justify doing one.
Quote from: Is Friday on December 03, 2013, 10:39:16 AM
Quote from: Desertman on December 03, 2013, 10:35:35 AM
I'm still waiting for the parties involved to own up to this not being FTB.
Come on...own up.
Do it.
They had mudsex with a catgirl for roleplay, asshole.
Found the third member.
Not surprised.
Also, not disappointed.
To gain a feline face, a tail, fur, different-shaped eyes, and I hope-fucking-not altered body shape in any other way, all at once, isn't a mutation. It's a whole new species.
Mutants might get lucky with a mutation, but that needs to be special apped of course, and you still wouldn't be apping more than one lucky mutation. It's improbable. Mutations and mutants follow the same rules of evolution that apply to the real world. The fantasy setting doesn't give anybody license to make up whatever shit they want and stick it into Zalanthas; you're here to play a role in THIS setting.
This isn't to say that multiple mutations are disallowed. But as Nyr said, the reason behind the multiple mutations must be explained, and there must be at least some proof in the background that the player understands what impact these mutations would have on their PC's life.
All that said, mutants are fucking awesome when done right, they should be a part of this game and I hope they will continue to be. I approve of everything the imms did in the above scenario; it sounds like some kids were goofing off in the noble roles they didn't really care to follow the guidelines for AND that they were being sneaky.
I'm going to have to pass.
There are a couple NPCs, one is a lizard/dragonman and the other one looks like Chtulhu. I'm not a furry fan, but I can see how someone could have gotten the idea that the cat-girl idea was acceptable.
Quote from: spicemustflow on December 04, 2013, 05:15:04 PM
There are a couple NPCs, one is a lizard/dragonman and the other one looks like Chtulhu. I'm not a furry fan, but I can see how someone could have gotten the idea that the cat-girl idea was acceptable.
In fairness, one of them is a race unto itself. I don't know about the other, festooned maws ARE a mutation I guess.
Don't forget the feathered one that looks like it's a birdman from Perdido Street Station.
I'unno really. Lots of Arm's PC's seem snowflaky rather than usual, if you look on them. The one NPC Templar in Allanak whose sdesc I can remember just so happens to have unblemished pale skin and a body to die for.
...
.. Wait, how much does it say about me that the one Templar I remember is the f-me one?
Quote from: Patuk on December 04, 2013, 06:07:04 PM
I'unno really. Lots of Arm's PC's seem snowflaky rather than usual, if you look on them. The one NPC Templar in Allanak whose sdesc I can remember just so happens to have unblemished pale skin and a body to die for.
...
.. Wait, how much does it say about me that the one Templar I remember is the f-me one?
/me says nothing.
I once had a HG denied cause I used childlike in her sdesc... then I saw several NPC HGs with that shit in theirs. Heh.
Knew it was only a matter of time until the word "snowflake" popped up, with the direction this thread went in. ::)
Fuck't, we're all snowflakes IRL. I'm still a snowflake because I can't RP anything appropriate to the setting...
I'm sorry, I've failed you all, I'm too soft, you see?
That's where discussions like this lead, which is why they are ultimately pointless IMO. I used to get insecure about this shit on the GDB in the past and it never helped. You either enjoy this game or you don't, and you either get imm approval or you don't, and when either of those things happen is unpredictable on a PC by PC basis. I only get attached to my PCs after ten days played. Few last that long. If some of those are "snowflakes," according to...somebody, then all I need to do is remind myself: am I sending in regular reports? Am I contributing to plots? Am I forming enmities and alliances? If I can answer yes to those three questions, then I can feel proud of my PC. Maybe my RP or concept are cliched, but all too often people here confuse their IC and OOC feelings for other players and concepts. That totally applies to imms too.
Arma is my favorite MUD because there are cultural boundaries. Even commoners should and do have them. No "snowflake" would be a problem if at least some players enforce these norms (vet players, it is on you/us to be the meanies most often). If a "snowflake" is bugging you IG, take action IG and see what happens, I dare you. But I warn you also, you may be unpleasantly surprised at what happens, you may become butthurt. You might lose the confrontation you sought.
I don't criticize my own RP enough. I do take breaks, though, and when I come back I will usually try to change up some aspect of my RP. Time to reflect helps, sending in a report or two and getting imm feedback helps. If things feel like they're going too well, or if my PC is becoming a snowflake, it's only a matter of days until a new PC shows up to put them in place.
Okay, /rant on the word "snowflake." my tl;dr is, if you're thinking "snowflake," then you're welcome to DO something about it and be the change.
With the Furry threesome back then my pc had no idea about that. But one real life day before the nobles was gone (stored) I had a full like six hours RP of rescueing one of those nobles. Afterwards I think back and how fun but oocly I think should just left them, lol good times. and to the staff that was with me thumbs up! was a fun night.