Every so often people bring up the idea that travelling is either too quick or too easy. This got me thinking about something I picked up in an environmental physiology course last year (blah, science, yeah yeah).
As it is now the reason travel is so quick and so easy (for most) is because of mounts. Depending on the quality of the mount you can quite easily make it from Allanak to Tuluk without pause. No human character could walk even half that without really specialized gear.
In the real world it is in fact exactly the opposite. Humans are the most competent overland migratory species in the world, pretty much bar none if you take them far enough. We can outrun horses, antelope, cheetahs (easily, they're not distance runners), and even dogs. Note that all of those competing species are mammals. Lizards can't hold a candle to a human.
From an article I found diverging from the main topic of human versus horse marathons:
"Our "sustainable distance" is also hard to beat. African hunting dogs typically travel an average of 10 kilometers a day. Wolves and hyenas tend to go about 14 and 19 kilometers, respectively. In repeated distance runs, horses can cover about 20 kilometers a day. Vast throngs of human runners, by comparison, routinely run 42.2-kilometer marathons in just a few hours, and each year tens of thousands of people complete ultra-marathons of 100 kilometers and longer. (A few animals can match that under special circumstances. Huskies can trot up to 100 kilometers in Arctic conditions when forced to by people. But in warmer climes—no way.)"
With this in mind, one solution that would make travel far more arduous is to simply drop mount stamina to equal or lower than human stamina. They can carry more (four legs and all), and move faster still but put humanoids in their rightful place as the kings and queens of overland movement.
Maybe even bump human stamina up a bit to compensate? I don't care. I do care about the fact that we're losing overland races with practically every large lizard species in existence. In the real world we can beat not just every lizard, but every land bound creature period. Well, I mean an in shape human could at least. No guarantees for couch potatoes.
C'mon, where's your human pride?
I find this interesting.
Most are not 'running' their mounts when they ride.
I think the current system accommodates those players whom have RL issues that can interfere with playing for long stretches of time, while still being generally burdening.
Although you do bring up interesting facts.
I think now that we have Quit OOC the excuse of OOC convenience no longer has the relevance it once had.
I agree that travel should be easier on foot, and mounts should have other advantages. Walking around in outdoor rooms should be much less devastating to your stamina, and the range of most mounts in terms of pure stamina should not really outrange humans.
You could balance this by making every movement through a large outdoor room tax not only your stamina, but your thirst and hunger. It should be provisions that limit and constrain PC travel.
In my mind the perfect scenario would be so that a high endurance PC can walk straight from one of the main cities to Luir's before having to rest. Mounts would still be mostly required, especially if you're travelling with anything in addition to the water you need to take with you for such a journey. You could still choose to ride the mount, but the difference should be comfort, not speed (either way, one of you is going to have to rest at Luir's before continuing the trip).
I am still on the other side of the fence in relation to OOC accommodations. Only because of how incredibly dangerous some places can be to have to quit out in.
However I very much support the idea of increasing the negatives to hunger and thirst, and perhaps even up it with requiring such provisions for mounts even be mandatory. 'water -mount- -container' 'feed -mount- -food-'
Sharps do the running (as they codedly have the stamina for it). Humans do the riding (as they codedly don't really have the stamina for it). I prefer to keep my mount. Why else would horses have been so very useful throughout the centuries?
Wear more sandcloth. Plan your moves. Prioritize endurance. Purposefully neglect your riding skill. New extended subguild? Maybe not needed, though. Interesting post!
All characters are not created equal, much like all humans IRL aren't. Using a RL marathon runner, with all the training and conditioning they go through, as basis for all humans, isn't exactly accurate. If mounts in the game were to be adjusted, they would have to be matched to the absolute cap of coded human stamina (ideal age, AI endurance, etc). However, much like IRL, that would still leave the majority of human characters unable to match that performance. Ginka sees to genetic diversity, and our stat priorities (like IRL) further mirror not just genetic pre-disposition but our lifestyle choices.
So, even if this were implemented, all it would be essentially is a mount nerf, wrapped in the package of false realism. The majority of human characters would still be unable to perform the kind of traveling discussed, on foot. Add in the dangers faced in travel, and it would almost make traveling impractical. In turn, that would not only lower playability, but further divide an already divided playerbase.
Of course, the entire premise of this post falls somewhat flat the moment you consider this is Zalanthas. Our humans are very different from theirs, and besides horses, their mounts don't exist in our world nor can their physiology be perfectly compared to RL species. If Zalanthan humans are stronger, it makes sense to assume their lizards and insect mounts are far superior to ours (as well as bigger, heh).
Edit: Forgot to add, fascinating facts and post though!
Are humans capable of running that marathon in Zalanthan conditions though? It's a bit hotter than London, and it's harder to walk/run on rocks and sand than concrete, tarmac or grass.
Is it economical to put yourself in a position where you'll be needing so much water? Who's carrying the water you'll need to travel this distance on foot if you don't have a mount?
Have these mounts been interfered with magically in the past, or simply evolved down a different path?
Not that I particularly dislike the suggestion, just playing Drov's Advocate a bit.
Quote from: Ouroboros on June 02, 2013, 05:59:51 AM
All characters are not created equal, much like all humans IRL aren't. Using a RL marathon runner, with all the training and conditioning they go through, as basis for all humans, isn't exactly accurate. If mounts in the game were to be adjusted, they would have to be matched to the absolute cap of coded human stamina (ideal age, AI endurance, etc). However, much like IRL, that would still leave the majority of human characters unable to match that performance. Ginka sees to genetic diversity, and our stat priorities (like IRL) further mirror not just genetic pre-disposition but our lifestyle choices.
So, even if this were implemented, all it would be essentially is a mount nerf, wrapped in the package of false realism. The majority of human characters would still be unable to perform the kind of traveling discussed, on foot. Add in the dangers faced in travel, and it would almost make traveling impractical. In turn, that would not only lower playability, but further divide an already divided playerbase.
Of course, the entire premise of this post falls somewhat flat the moment you consider this is Zalanthas. Our humans are very different from theirs, and besides horses, their mounts don't exist in our world nor can their physiology be perfectly compared to RL species. If Zalanthan humans are stronger, it makes sense to assume their lizards and insect mounts are far superior to ours (as well as bigger, heh).
Edit: Forgot to add, fascinating facts and post though!
You don't need to look at marathon runners. Just look at normal hiking. Do you think if you went out to the slat flats in Arizona or Bolivia and walked for an hour, you'd be so exhausted you couldn't move anymore? Sure, you can argue that by some stroke of crazy evolution Zalanthan humans are stronger and tougher than Earth equivalents, but are much, much, much worse endurance walkers. But come on, it's much more convincing just to stick to arguments about OOC convenience than to pretend realism is on your side.
I'm not sure how enabling PCs to walk around outdoors would be a mount nerf. No one is trying to say the game should be changed such that everyone would have to rest in between Tuluk/Allanak and Luirs. And right now travel between major population cities is so easy it's kind of a joke. Wrong game to complain about making that a little tougher (but it wouldn't be tougher).
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 02, 2013, 06:27:14 AM*snip* ...I'm not sure how enabling PCs to walk around outdoors would be a mount nerf.
What the OP proposed was a reduction of mount stamina, to make it lower than human stamina. An increase to human stamina was a secondary request and an unimportant one to him. His main concern is that mounts have more stamina than humans, but his suggestion is a mount nerf, not a human boost. My response was to the OP, while your suggestion is a bit different from his. No harm done, though. Just pointing out my response was valid, just not addressed to your take on the issue.
As far as your suggestion goes, increasing human stamina but balancing it out... I like aspects of it. Thirst and hunger should have a higher cost when traveling outside cities on foot, while I agree inside cities the cost should be lower. However I would argue that could be implemented just so, without touching human stamina base and caps. As Harmless said, travel on foot can already be achieved to a large extent, if you make it your character's goal in life. However, it remains impractical and will continue to be so as long as mounts exist. Even if one -could- walk across the Known on foot, why would they choose to do so instead of riding a mount? Humans aren't elves, nor do we have some illogical sense of pride about walking. Humans are known for innovation, using the best tools available to them to make their lives easier.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 02, 2013, 06:27:14 AMSure, you can argue that by some stroke of crazy evolution Zalanthan humans are stronger and tougher than Earth equivalents, but are much, much, much worse endurance walkers. But come on, it's much more convincing just to stick to arguments about OOC convenience than to pretend realism is on your side.
Actually, my point wasn't that Zalanthans stronger and tougher but have
less stamina. It was that given we know Zalanthans
are stronger, tougher (and
have more stamina), we can't really compare their beast mounts to ours any more than we can their humans. RL lizards might have less endurance than humans, but that doesn't mean Zalanthan ones do as well.
Nerfing a certain kind of mount so they can no longer walk from Allanak to Tuluk doesn't seem like a big deal. In fact I think it's rather annoying that most mount types are mostly ignored in favor of the two types who do have it. It comes down to basic game design: if you're going to offer choices, ideally there is never an ideal solution. All options should have benefits and drawbacks that allow them to be used on occasion.
The recommendation in this thread goes a step further and says not only should we see more mount variety than those two mount types, but they should also be directly competing with people travelling on foot. Travelling on foot shouldn't be something that's only kinda possible if you design your entire character around it (and buy an carry around a specific item that's even more expensive than a mount); it should just be a normal travel option that might be right for some people. It would only enrich the game.
I would think if humans get an endurance buff city elves should get a bigger one.
Would be nice though, if everyone had to take a break at roughly the same point in the journey. As it is, too easy to complain about those who will not ride tagging along, for reasons other than their filthy, thieving, murderous ways. Still, I can see the point of ooc issues, it already takes a lot of RL time to get from Nak to Luk, and back (can make it one way in as little as a day, so roughly an hour or so, but both ways is a bit trickier and ends up with an overnight stay tacking on 20-30 minutes, that's two and a half hours of riding, not to mention time spent preparing, gathering people together, etc.), as part of a large group. You increase the time, going to see a massive drop in escort numbers because who has time for that (besides me, anyway)?
And that cuts into time that could be spent doing other things, like training your skills, or sitting in a tavern hemoting "leans to the right and lifts his leg a bit, then subtly fans the air away".
Maybe some wouldn't see a problem with that, but I would. Isn't near as much fun without shared experiences, and with fewer people along they would become much rarer.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 02, 2013, 07:24:15 AMTravelling on foot shouldn't be something that's only kinda possible if you design your entire character around it (and buy an carry around a specific item that's even more expensive than a mount); it should just be a normal travel option that might be right for some people. It would only enrich the game.
It already is, for desert elves. In fact it's one of their benefits, from a game design standpoint. If you take that away by leveling the playing field for all races (or worse, just boosting humans), you'd then need to overhaul desert elves as well to bring them into balance. And if you do that by increasing their stamina as well, we'd go back to some very unrealistic and over-powered scenarios that existed before their stamina was lowered. Even if that's not your proposed solution though, staff would still need to overhaul two races at minimum, all mounts, and possibly the walk code, just to make this happen.
That said, there is one option that might require less work and address more than just travel. Harmless touched on this, already; an extended subclass.
Right now there's a glaring omission in the available ESG's, which leaves non-clan tribal characters left looking from the outside in. If a Nomad ESG was implemented, a small stamina boost as part of it would make sense. And it would provide an aide to on-foot travel specifically to the kind of character that should have it, desert nomads. Instead of making it a game-wide boost to an entire race or races, which would provide an endurance boost to characters that would normally have no justification for it.
This has always irked me as well. Humans are excellent walkers.
I really think stamina cost for outdoor movement should be cut in half, and the time it takes to regen stamina should be reduced as well. Even in a Storm, if you have food and water, hunkering down with your cloak should get you enough stamina to walk five or six leagues fairly quickly.
Desert Elves: I'm not a fan of how their running ability is reflected code-wise, I think it's too unbalanced, but I will refrain from discussing code specifics.
Bottom line for me is that human tribals and human military types should be able to rely on their own two legs a lot more than they are currently able to. As it is now, you have to rest too frequently, and it takes too long to regen stamina, even in a tent. This is actually a big deal because even if you have the time to kill waiting for stamina to regen, resting leaves you extremely vulnerable. How can I play a commando or wise tribal wanderer and have my character laying prone in the wastes all the time?
The Zalanthan heat argument doesn't have traction. Humans are better suited to hot environments than most mammals, our entire physiology is designed around a huge brain that requires intense thermal control because of the heat it generates. Humans are uniquely designed to deal with heat. Additionally, as far as I know, Zalanthan temperatures are not hotter than Earth desert temperatures, which a person can easily work all day in, with adequate water.
As a man who frequently walks with gear and extra weight either in a pack or carrying it, I can testify to the fact that carrying any manner of additional stuff makes your journey a lot harder. You get hotter quicker, you practically dump water if you're moving quickly with extra layers, and you fatigue faster.
All of that should be obvious but someone has to post it.
My 2 sids: If you're going to be able to run with anything above light encumbrance you need to take severe, knee-crushing, back-shattering penalties. If you're walking with weight, the same.
edit:
For context, my gear weighs about 30lbs, not including my weapon (10lb), or pack (50-80lbs). I can usually jog 5mph for about an hour before I need to start walking/running in intervals. If I'm just hiking with weight (no running,) usually I can go 10-15 miles before it's a good idea to stop for the rest of the day if I want to be able to do it again tomorrow.
I do not think desert elves would need any change, even if you were to up human stam and walking ability. Desert elves have other desert percs aside from just running, and that alone is enough...long as you don't change running on other races.
Some thoughts on this:
- It seems ridiculously easy to travel the world, but I think part of this is simply that on some days you can travel between the two major cities and not encounter a single mob, and on occasion you encounter three or seven and things don't go so well. One raider though, and the world freaks out. Perhaps we could bring back a raiding clan, albeit with steep limitations, something like:
- Maximum of two designated PCs able to raid at any one time (Or variable based on assessed need)
- Designation only received after one game year and a track record with no twinking and good RP
- Other PCs fulfill other existing tribe roles.
- If the fear of abuse / excessive impact is a restraint, make the raiding positions a spec app and require more karma.
- Humans can indeed outrun a horse, but that's only at jogging speed, we can't out-run / out-distance them at walking or full-out sprint. Our ancestors, the anthropologists say, would jog down a Horse; at that speed a Horse would canter, a specific type of run that was very inefficient for the beast, and we would make it canter until it overheated and had a heart attack. What's more - running in sand is something Humans are explicitly not good at.
- I was thinking of the "D-Elf / C-Elf: one species" thing and what came to mind was a skill that possibly ties into this thread: Distance running / endurance running. Species noted / required to run long distances (e.g. D-Elves, certain Tribal Humans, Gith, Halflings, Mantis) get the top-tier version of this skill. Everybody else gets a third-tier version. It reduces the endurance required to run a given distance, which is fundamentally how it works for humans when we learn to run. Those that are city-bound rarely get a chance to run, or rarely would if they can rely on big, powerful mounts. It at least unifies the Elf species code-wise, and confers advantage where the need for it is apparent, in the big open stretches of the world where survival and endurance go hand in hand.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 02, 2013, 06:05:33 AM
Are humans capable of running that marathon in Zalanthan conditions though? It's a bit hotter than London, and it's harder to walk/run on rocks and sand than concrete, tarmac or grass.
Humans are specifically adapted to extended endurance feats in hot and dry conditions. The way our muscles work, the hairlessness, the sweating, all of this is for long distance in hot conditions. The article mentioned that the only animals that could come close to competing with humans for overland travel could only do so in arctic conditions (huskies).
I want to be clear for people that seem to assume that this applies only to marathon runners. Any in shape human can out-walk any animal in the real world over long distances. We used horses to carry stuff, and for short and medium distances (and because we're lazy). If a horse tried to keep up with a human over long distances, even a pretty average one, it would kill itself after the first day.
Quote from: Narf on June 02, 2013, 11:19:26 AM
I want to be clear for people that seem to assume that this applies only to marathon runners. Any in shape human can out-walk any animal in the real world over long distances. We used horses to carry stuff, and for short and medium distances (and because we're lazy). If a horse tried to keep up with a human over long distances, even a pretty average one, it would kill itself after the first day.
Carrying gear/equipment over a period of time is a completely different animal, though. (Pun intended.)
SOCOM did a study about training with weight.
Hiking with 45lbs in a pack:
Walking=3x stress on your joints and tendons.
Running=5x stress on your joints and tendons.
Humans can and will break down if ideal conditions are not met for proper hydration and nutrition if they are carrying weight. Even so, shit happens, and often without something unplanned happening injuries occur.
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 11:23:58 AM
Quote from: Narf on June 02, 2013, 11:19:26 AM
I want to be clear for people that seem to assume that this applies only to marathon runners. Any in shape human can out-walk any animal in the real world over long distances. We used horses to carry stuff, and for short and medium distances (and because we're lazy). If a horse tried to keep up with a human over long distances, even a pretty average one, it would kill itself after the first day.
Carrying gear/equipment over a period of time is a completely different animal, though. (Pun intended.)
SOCOM did a study about training with weight.
Hiking with 45lbs in a pack:
Walking=3x stress on your joints and tendons.
Running=5x stress on your joints and tendons.
Humans can and will break down if ideal conditions are not met for proper hydration and nutrition if they are carrying weight. Even so, shit happens, and often without something unplanned happening injuries occur.
And I think this is where the real purpose of mounts comes in. They shouldn't be letting us go farther, they should be carrying our stuff.
As a side note with regards to food and water:
Humans eat an order of magnitude more than lizards to maintain standard metabolism. During activity this discrepancy decreases substantially, but humans will still eat more.
Humans use less calories than other migratory animals because our locomotion style is based around efficiency
Humans use more water than most animals of any sort because we sweat far more than most animals. This same penchance for sweating though is what allows us to outdistance so many other animals in hot and arid conditions.
Was doing some additional reading on the running issue and some things became apparent:
- What really allows Humans to persistently chase an animal to exhaustion is the ability to track it. Intelligent, fearful animals sprint till out of sight; if you can't track them, you can't maintain that persistent hunt that will work them to exhaustion.
- Without the ability to track you lose track of the prey, and therefore the mandate to jog such long distances disappears with the dinner.
- Humans eventually evolved to understand the natural lifecycle of game, such that we didn't need to out-run them, we hunted by trap and ambush, or we used Horses to sprint fast enough that we could sustain a trap over distance and hit multiple targets (i.e. Buffalo hunting). Trapping and ambush allowed us to expend far fewer calories and take less risks, thus making survival easier.
- The level of technology in Zalanthas is sufficiently advanced to conclude that hunters hunt by ambush and knowing the prey, so there shouldn't be a great need to exhaust prey; as such, I believe that most playable races would not be able to out-run game, only the great endurance runners would.
Quote from: gfair on June 02, 2013, 12:57:40 PM
Was doing some additional reading on the running issue and some things became apparent:
- What really allows Humans to persistently chase an animal to exhaustion is the ability to track it. Intelligent, fearful animals sprint till out of sight; if you can't track them, you can't maintain that persistent hunt that will work them to exhaustion.
- Without the ability to track you lose track of the prey, and therefore the mandate to jog such long distances disappears with the dinner.
- Humans eventually evolved to understand the natural lifecycle of game, such that we didn't need to out-run them, we hunted by trap and ambush, or we used Horses to sprint fast enough that we could sustain a trap over distance and hit multiple targets (i.e. Buffalo hunting). Trapping and ambush allowed us to expend far fewer calories and take less risks, thus making survival easier.
- The level of technology in Zalanthas is sufficiently advanced to conclude that hunters hunt by ambush and knowing the prey, so there shouldn't be a great need to exhaust prey; as such, I believe that most playable races would not be able to out-run game, only the great endurance runners would.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcz617rSy01r38j04o1_500.gif)
Quote from: gfair on June 02, 2013, 12:57:40 PM
Was doing some additional reading on the running issue and some things became apparent:
- What really allows Humans to persistently chase an animal to exhaustion is the ability to track it. Intelligent, fearful animals sprint till out of sight; if you can't track them, you can't maintain that persistent hunt that will work them to exhaustion.
- Without the ability to track you lose track of the prey, and therefore the mandate to jog such long distances disappears with the dinner.
- Humans eventually evolved to understand the natural lifecycle of game, such that we didn't need to out-run them, we hunted by trap and ambush, or we used Horses to sprint fast enough that we could sustain a trap over distance and hit multiple targets (i.e. Buffalo hunting). Trapping and ambush allowed us to expend far fewer calories and take less risks, thus making survival easier.
- The level of technology in Zalanthas is sufficiently advanced to conclude that hunters hunt by ambush and knowing the prey, so there shouldn't be a great need to exhaust prey; as such, I believe that most playable races would not be able to out-run game, only the great endurance runners would.
Hunting is a different beast entirely than migration. We are biomechanically incredibly well suited for migration. Some humans adapted this for hunting.
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 09:50:33 AM
As a man who frequently walks with gear and extra weight either in a pack or carrying it, I can testify to the fact that carrying any manner of additional stuff makes your journey a lot harder. You get hotter quicker, you practically dump water if you're moving quickly with extra layers, and you fatigue faster.
All of that should be obvious but someone has to post it.
My 2 sids: If you're going to be able to run with anything above light encumbrance you need to take severe, knee-crushing, back-shattering penalties. If you're walking with weight, the same.
edit:
For context, my gear weighs about 30lbs, not including my weapon (10lb), or pack (50-80lbs). I can usually jog 5mph for about an hour before I need to start walking/running in intervals. If I'm just hiking with weight (no running,) usually I can go 10-15 miles before it's a good idea to stop for the rest of the day if I want to be able to do it again tomorrow.
And that's exactly why we shouldn't worry that allowing people to walk places would make mounts obsolete. Encumberance already affects stamina cost of movement. Just extend it so that once you're at easily manageable or higher, suddenly that hike down to Storm looks painful and miserable, and a hike up to Luir's looks downright impossible. Then most players will still be traveling with mounts. This is especially true if you combine it with my other idea, to put additional taxes on thirst.
And anyway mostly we're talking about walking here, not running. If we were going to change this, I would say while most races should be able to walk great distances before exhaustion, only delfs still should be able to run more than a few wilderness rooms at a time.
QuoteWe are biomechanically incredibly well suited for migration
To add to that, Humans use less energy just standing still then any other land mammal/lizard/bird.
QuoteIf we were going to change this, I would say while most races should be able to walk great distances before exhaustion, only delfs still should be able to run more than a few wilderness rooms at a time
I agree with that.
I used to walk long distances with gear in a wet, hot environment, Hawaii. My squad leader would sometimes fill my pack with canned beans, sardines, stuff like that and make me run to the front of the formation, and past that, on a twenty mile road march. I cannot tell you how hot that helmet gets or how badly I wanted to die for the next three days, but it was hell. Still, it was able to be done, it just, shouldn't be done. I think the guy who was my squad leader was an idiot.
Rest breaks? Maybe if you're lucky. I don't seem to have any memory of them, but maybe my brain was so fried from the heat and exhaustion that it was useless at the time.
Long distances can be indeed walked, somewhat encumbered and unsuitably dressed for the environment, if done responsibly, after rest, maintaining proper hydration, proper nutrition, and don't forget paying a little attention to cleanliness (or you will itch so bad down there and bleed and ooze you will wish you were dead). And not running with a pack filled with gear and someone else's canned goods (though you can do that, it's incredibly stupid).
That said, I once tried to carry an awkward, large television a mile and a half through the desert, and it dang near killed me, but I made it, by doing short sprints, setting it down, catching my breath and cooling off, pick it up again. I didn't move right for days.
All taken into consideration, I think the current mount system works fine and that a slight tweak to city elves would be nice.
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 02, 2013, 03:35:39 PM
I think the guy who was my squad leader was an idiot.
Or he didn't care that you shed boot tears.
Decrease outdoors movement speeds with light encumbrance. Increase outdoors movement speeds with encumbrance levels above light.
Decrease mount stamina. Increase mount weight limit. This is even easy to code; up their strength, lower their endurance.
???
Profit.
Add a debuff so that after so much stam use, it makes you weaker. After about 200+ (ddepending, I guess) stam used up, you're losing your hydration quicker along with more stam use per room movement and slower reaction speed. Then bam, you start feeling fatigued. Lasts until you are fully rested in an appropriate spot. That would be realistic for travelling without proper breaks. I think a mount should always be necessary unless you have an appropriate race/whatever.
I don't see any point to doing this.
Mounts get exhausted plenty quickly. If you're spam walking what you know is a safe route and wondering why the world isn't more dangerous, maybe you should think about the fact that you're considering a best case scenario, and taking a path that people regularly clear.
If you want your mount to get tired more quickly, ride it off road, it'll happen. Just like pcs get tired more quickly when they walk off-road.
I don't think that lowering mount strength will assist with this, as I've had several beetles pop on logging back in over time that could only carry a single bag. Many pcs can already carry more than this, so that just seems pointless.
And if you lower mount stamina, it's only a matter of a week before the half of people who aren't in favor of this are on here bitching.
Make changes, people bitch.
Don't make changes, people bitch.
I think this is fine the way it is, personally.
If you want your mount to get tired more quickly, take a route that has rooms with a higher stamina cost (aka offroad the whole way).
If you simply want more danger, then... well... same advice. People travel the roads all the time to make sure no npcs are there waiting to attack. In multiple clans. So go somewhere they don't do this, and use -that- route when travelling.
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 03:49:09 PM
Or he didn't care that you shed boot tears.
I'm sorry, is that some form of more recent slang? I can't tell what you're saying here. Please explain "boot tears". I know the first time I came out of the gas chamber I had snot trails down to my boots, but, I don't think that's relevant.
That wasn't the only thing he did, but this thread isn't about that. It's about going long distances. If you have to you should be able to get up and go, maybe adrenalin code or something.
He lost three privates fresh out of basic to mental health, the other NCOs cornered him and threatened him about how he was treating me, then got me transferred.
What sucked most about it is often once we got there there was still stuff to be done. I heard about a 40 mile roadmarch my unit did before I was assigned to them where the supply guys decided to just take the day off, or got lost or something. Lots of injured, wounded, seems counterproductive. Was the training area on the big island between those two peaks (desert climate) with all the jagged rocks, had people collapsing on them and getting stabbed.
One guy got in serious trouble for a single frame comic he drew about it, with the caption "A day in the life of the crackhounds", depicting an emaciated soldier pouring sand out of a canteen onto the ground with a tear dripping from his eye. What was odd, all the other infantry units were somewhat big, muscular guys, ours were all skinny, angular, and mean looking.
Oh, you were Army?
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 07:23:29 PM
Oh, you were Army?
/me reaches down, adjusting the laces of her battered combat boots.
You got something against Army people, Marine? :P
I'm against ANYTHING that would allow anything other than D-elves travel -long- distances on foot at one shot. Even upping city elves. They wanna "run"? They should have stayed in the sands where they belong.
I don't care about stamina. Movement speed outside the gates could be fucking halved though, and agility should play a bigger role in how fast you move.
Seriously outside movement should reflect the, on average, much larger rooms. I hate that people can walk by your and you don't even have time to 'l amos' to see them. Or emote at them, or anything. With an added delay you could spam walk, and still have an ability to emote, look every direction, talk with fellow travelers and be more mindful of your surroundings.
Nobody would know if you're spam walking. Also there should be a third speed. Walk, fastwalk/jog, run. As it is people think you're moving fast if you're spam-walking. In reality you're still just walking.
Quote from: ShaLeah on June 02, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 07:23:29 PM
Oh, you were Army?
/me reaches down, adjusting the laces of her battered combat boots.
You got something against Army people, Marine? :P
Yeah I'm sure those combat boots get really
battered from all those boxes you kicked in the Army, Supply soldier.
Quote from: Da Princess on June 02, 2013, 06:18:06 PM
Add a debuff so that after so much stam use, it makes you weaker. After about 200+ (ddepending, I guess) stam used up, you're losing your hydration quicker along with more stam use per room movement and slower reaction speed. Then bam, you start feeling fatigued. Lasts until you are fully rested in an appropriate spot. That would be realistic for travelling without proper breaks. I think a mount should always be necessary unless you have an appropriate race/whatever.
I like this idea. Say increase stamina by some amount, but at the half way point you start getting penalties to everything including movement speed.
More coding though than just dropping the stamina stat for mounts.
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on June 02, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 07:23:29 PM
Oh, you were Army?
/me reaches down, adjusting the laces of her battered combat boots.
You got something against Army people, Marine? :P
Yeah I'm sure those combat boots get really battered from all those boxes you kicked in the Army, Supply soldier.
My combat boots are older than you are, kid. Sit back and try doing SHIT without supply :P
/derail
Yeah, when logistics fail, people suffer... I haven't seen it, that I can remember, but I've heard some stories...
Quote from: ShaLeah on June 02, 2013, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on June 02, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 07:23:29 PM
Oh, you were Army?
/me reaches down, adjusting the laces of her battered combat boots.
You got something against Army people, Marine? :P
Yeah I'm sure those combat boots get really battered from all those boxes you kicked in the Army, Supply soldier.
My combat boots are older than you are, kid. Sit back and try doing SHIT without supply :P
/derail
BULLETS DONT FLY WITHOUT SUPPLYS WIFE!!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/5646_347138002073628_215993685_n.jpg)
Most fun thing I ever did in the navy was remind marines they are just the Navy's GI's.
They get all red and puffy.
Which was even funnier because it is not exactly true anymore...the ones that actually know that puff up the most.
Quote from: X-D on June 02, 2013, 10:51:30 PM
Most fun thing I ever did in the navy was remind marines they are just the Navy's GI's.
They get all red and puffy.
After all, someone's gotta be a gate guard....
;)
(USN 77-80)
Wow, Older then me.
(USN 86-89)
Quote from: X-D on June 02, 2013, 10:56:56 PM
Wow, Older then me.
(USN 86-89)
:)
There's an ex-USAF guy playing that's even older than me! I think he said he enlisted in '73.
We sure derailed this thread.
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 09:50:33 AM
For context, my gear weighs about 30lbs, not including my weapon (10lb), or pack (50-80lbs). I can usually jog 5mph for about an hour before I need to start walking/running in intervals. If I'm just hiking with weight (no running,) usually I can go 10-15 miles before it's a good idea to stop for the rest of the day if I want to be able to do it again tomorrow.
The hell kind of weapon are you toting that's 10 lbs.?
Quote from: Valincio on June 03, 2013, 04:20:27 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on June 02, 2013, 09:50:33 AM
For context, my gear weighs about 30lbs, not including my weapon (10lb), or pack (50-80lbs). I can usually jog 5mph for about an hour before I need to start walking/running in intervals. If I'm just hiking with weight (no running,) usually I can go 10-15 miles before it's a good idea to stop for the rest of the day if I want to be able to do it again tomorrow.
The hell kind of weapon are you toting that's 10 lbs.?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle
Wikipedia says 8lbs but you're not including the other shit we put on there like super sweet lasers or if you have a 203.
http://forums.military.com/eve (http://forums.military.com/eve) pls.
Quote from: Mendel on June 03, 2013, 06:54:15 AM
http://forums.military.com/eve (http://forums.military.com/eve) pls.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/
This is a subject that comes up often enough and for me it always comes down to the same thing. The players. People are always going to min-max a system, even in a roleplaying game, and that is what we have here. There are mounts better than other mounts and people sometimes cannot resist getting the best kind of mount to travel the entire known without stopping.
How often do you see someone who has "been around" a while running around with a lizard? Not often. They are riding around on top-tier mounts, even if they had a lizard from the beginning, they dumped poor Spot on the side of the sands for dead and started riding their new turbo-mount.
I bond with my mounts often enough and I tend to keep the same one forever, or until it dies, or is left behind, or I die. But, I won't be upgrading to a new one once I get tons of 'sids. I don't know that mount. Mr. Jibblesworth has taken me all over the known and back, twice. He's my fucking buddy. I'm not ditching him for some uppity Inix.
This is one thing I have noticed when it comes to mounts, and travel. I tried to put it comically, but in all seriousness people don't just ditch their horses in the real world for a new one. They become attached. You learn your mount, you ride it, and it becomes your friend. I am sure all horse owners can attest to this. Sure, practicality might mean you have to ride a new horse for some reason, but you don't just toss him aside because some other horse looks a little bit better. And, unless you know all about mounts and animal husbandry perhaps you don't even know that Mount X is better than Mount Y, or Z. You certainly do know, though, that Mr. Jibbles has carried you for several years, reliably.
I also think more people would be inclined to take longer journeys and even without mounts if some NPC's didn't track so well and quickly. I've had some experiences with being tracked over many, many rooms and I knew I would eventually run out of stamina and die, no chance without a mount. Nobody wants to die to RANDOM NPC encounter #43. They just don't. Especially if you're alone. You'll just be a looted corpse or an afterthought that nobody knows what happened too.
I think I need to roll up a Desert-Elf, so I can run around and take my time enjoying the sands.
Quote from: AreteX on June 03, 2013, 10:24:10 AM
How often do you see someone who has "been around" a while running around with a lizard?
Half the mounts in the game are lizards - including the inix. They all have their pros and cons. You should try actually looking at them sometime, or at least bother to find out what all the different kinds of mounts are good for befo0re making wild claim.
But I guess it wouldn't be the gdb is people didn't do that.
Back to the more interesting derail about hatin' on Supply!
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on June 03, 2013, 10:40:57 AM
Back to the more interesting derail about hatin' on Supply!
:'(
Quote from: ShaLeah on June 03, 2013, 10:42:26 AM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on June 03, 2013, 10:40:57 AM
Back to the more interesting derail about hatin' on Supply!
:'(
Or was it just hatin' on Marines hatin' on Supply?
Either way, it's more interesting.
One of the security guards at work is retired USAF...now this would normally spawn many jokes and much ribbing from any marine/sailor/GI.
But being as he was an ARS chopper pilot in vietnam, I simply can't poke fun at anybody that crazy.
Family get togethers can be interesting in my house as well. Everybody actually related to me who has served has been in Marines or Navy...so, much good natured ribbing.
Cept for my Father in law. Vietnam vet career retired GI Sergeant Major Joseph. He gets to sit and drink his beer in peace cause nobody messes with a sergeant major. I will have to ask him about supply.
And yes, My father in law IS GI Joe.
As to travel. I think most things have been said.
I mostly agree that mounts should have slightly reduced stam but increased encumbrance.
PC races (other then delves) Should have slightly increased stam but take much larger encumbrance hits to movement, and make that even larger if they are running.
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on June 03, 2013, 10:40:57 AM
Quote from: AreteX on June 03, 2013, 10:24:10 AM
How often do you see someone who has "been around" a while running around with a lizard?
Half the mounts in the game are lizards - including the inix. They all have their pros and cons. You should try actually looking at them sometime, or at least bother to find out what all the different kinds of mounts are good for befo0re making wild claim.
But I guess it wouldn't be the gdb is people didn't do that.
Back to the more interesting derail about hatin' on Supply!
I guess it wouldn't be the GDB if people didn't come into a thread and with a constructive post, respond with sarcasm and rudeness.
You took one sentence from my entire post and commented on nothing else. I am not making "wild claims". I am stating something that is pretty true and other people on here have as well. I realize there are other lizard mounts, but I was meaning to refer to the Sunback, specifically. Other people have stated before on this thread that certain mounts are used more often because they are simply "better". What I was referring to is the fact that these "better" mounts are taken up and the old mount is tossed aside to forever be a ticket in a bag, or sold to someone, even if the character itself would likely be attached to the animal.
Maybe Zalanthians are different than the real world in that regards, and they don't get attached to their mounts. Maybe I am wrong.
It doesn't mean you have to come on here and reply with sarcasm, nothing constructive, and then continue to derail the thread, does it?
Maybe if you were more correct in your post, you'd not have to worry about it. ::)
Actually, don't explain.
This is why I don't post on the GDB very often.
I don't see sunbacks running around in high numbers, and people choose mounts based off coded advantages. This I am pretty sure about because I see it happen all the time.
Back to supply stuff.
Something about pack weights, ect?
If stabling cost reflected how much food/water the help files say mounts consume you would see a lot more balance with what people choose to ride.
Most my non-delf PCs go without mounts.
I think it is part of the reason I have so many self defense PKs....cause everyone thinks only a newb would be silly enough to go without a mount, not a 60 day dwarf warrior.
Hey Amos, look, must be a newb or a (censored) East...lets get em!
run
e;e;kill dude.
Few seconds later
Welcome to Armageddon!
I still laugh while looting the bodies though.
This thread confuses me. (not the derails.) I initially read some interesting ideas, but I felt then that they weren't necessarily applicable to Zalanthas and its people. Then there was some discussion that had more to do with IG info, game mechanics, and so on, and now X-D, who doesn't often ride mounts, seems dead sure that we need to drop their stam and encumbrance loads.
I really hope that nothing changes, because I am not at all convinced that there ever was any problem or that these fixes are the right ones. Also because I think X-D's kill count is high enough without a mount stam buff.
The rules don't apply to X-D. He's a murderous outlier.
Actually I said increase enc on mounts.
Doing the research for the real world. Through out much of history and before, Humans have used animals as "beasts of burden" Animals from dogs, which many cultures used to pull carts/sleds to cattle, horses and even certain types of deer and antelope...camels and elephants. But other then in war/battle, they did not actually often ride them. Even though they could in most cases. Instead they packed the heavy and cumbersome loads on them and lead them...stopping when the animal got tired...not when they did. This was an easy way to move and travel. Even today that is the case for the few existing tribes.
Now, do I think there Needs to be a change in game...no, not really.
Do I agree that a change to bring this thing a bit closer to reality, that humans (and other races) Should be able to walk a bit farther and mounts a bit less...Yes.
But it is not a game breaker to me in either direction, Leave it, change it, does not matter to me.
Though, It IS far easier for my PC to kill your mounted PC then unmounted...if you are worried about the kills :)
One word...
Rickshaw.
A tribe of city elves parting people from their coin by hauling them around town at full speed, and sometimes into dark alleyways...
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 03, 2013, 07:15:26 PM
One word...
Rickshaw.
A tribe of city elves parting people from their coin by hauling them around town at full speed, and sometimes into dark alleyways...
:D
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 03, 2013, 12:09:26 PM
If stabling cost reflected how much food/water the help files say mounts consume you would see a lot more balance with what people choose to ride.
Oh that would be very cool. VERY COOL.
I pretty much like it the way it is.
There's no question it's unrealistic that we can go between cities in a day, but it makes for trade and plots and interaction between PCs.
If you like the RP of gruelling travel, you can certainly choose to walk and play it out.
A bigger problem for me is tents. They are too heavy. First, I doubt sandcloth is as heavy as canvas...in fact, on most things in game, that is exactly the case, sandcloth clothing is lighter then canvas.
IRL I have had 2 man canvas tents...from years back, before such things were nylon and aluminam,, So, canvas, steel poles and stakes, linen rope. And they never weighed more then 20lbs.
Yet the lightest of tents IG is somewhere between 20 and 30 stone (50-70lbs). Twice as much as it should be if you ask me.
Zalanthan wood is a billion times denser than real life wood because it ~evolved to be tougher~
Which is why it takes two axe swings to chop down a baobab tree.
:P
zalanthan humans tougher harsh desert world
Yet strangely puny when it comes to carrying camping gear.
i . . . but game. . . fun.. . muscles... ba... balance. . . realism? ?
and, thread.
Quote from: X-D on June 04, 2013, 12:20:56 AM
A bigger problem for me is tents. They are too heavy. First, I doubt sandcloth is as heavy as canvas...in fact, on most things in game, that is exactly the case, sandcloth clothing is lighter then canvas.
IRL I have had 2 man canvas tents...from years back, before such things were nylon and aluminam,, So, canvas, steel poles and stakes, linen rope. And they never weighed more then 20lbs.
Yet the lightest of tents IG is somewhere between 20 and 30 stone (50-70lbs). Twice as much as it should be if you ask me.
Honestly that might be a much simpler adjustment that would address the roughly same issue. Change tents so that their weight and cost actually makes sense.
Yeah, tents are a considerable investment, and weigh a bit (I had no clue how much they weigh). I've been shopping around, trying to find the best price, it's insane. One of my characters carried something around that was about ten stone, but it was worn on the head. Probably should have broken his neck, looking at these numbers.
The tents are fairly big, though. Several people can fit in one. This may or may not be in line with the tent's room description, however.
A crowd forms outside the tent store, quickly becoming a riot. You hear screams from desperate patrons, "These tents are too heavy!" "Tents Cost too much!"
There actually is a smaller tent now. Maybe still too heavy I didn't weigh it but it fits in a normal size pack with other stuff in it.
Still pretty heavy, and costs as much as a good mount...given the description, both should be cut in half.
Specially when you consider that a mount takes more then one swing to kill.
Delirium and MeTekillot won this thread last page.
Quote from: X-D on June 04, 2013, 02:11:17 PM
Still pretty heavy, and costs as much as a good mount...given the description, both should be cut in half.
Specially when you consider that a mount takes more then one swing to kill.
I agree fully. Tents are too heavy and cost too much in game.
I also agree with this.
Quote from: musashi on June 04, 2013, 07:00:36 PM
Delirium and MeTekillot won this thread last page.
Quote from: gfair on June 02, 2013, 10:51:55 AM
Some thoughts on this:
- It seems ridiculously easy to travel the world, but I think part of this is simply that on some days you can travel between the two major cities and not encounter a single mob, and on occasion you encounter three or seven and things don't go so well. One raider though, and the world freaks out. Perhaps we could bring back a raiding clan, albeit with steep limitations, something like:
- Maximum of two designated PCs able to raid at any one time (Or variable based on assessed need)
- Designation only received after one game year and a track record with no twinking and good RP
- Other PCs fulfill other existing tribe roles.
- If the fear of abuse / excessive impact is a restraint, make the raiding positions a spec app and require more karma.
- Humans can indeed outrun a horse, but that's only at jogging speed, we can't out-run / out-distance them at walking or full-out sprint. Our ancestors, the anthropologists say, would jog down a Horse; at that speed a Horse would canter, a specific type of run that was very inefficient for the beast, and we would make it canter until it overheated and had a heart attack. What's more - running in sand is something Humans are explicitly not good at.
- I was thinking of the "D-Elf / C-Elf: one species" thing and what came to mind was a skill that possibly ties into this thread: Distance running / endurance running. Species noted / required to run long distances (e.g. D-Elves, certain Tribal Humans, Gith, Halflings, Mantis) get the top-tier version of this skill. Everybody else gets a third-tier version. It reduces the endurance required to run a given distance, which is fundamentally how it works for humans when we learn to run. Those that are city-bound rarely get a chance to run, or rarely would if they can rely on big, powerful mounts. It at least unifies the Elf species code-wise, and confers advantage where the need for it is apparent, in the big open stretches of the world where survival and endurance go hand in hand.
For some reason, I really like this idea. It increases the danger of the "dangerous" deserts from just attacks to actual, PC-danger. It also gives something for the militias to do rather than just sit around all day.