Armageddon General Discussion Board

So recently I've heard that elves aren't allowed to ride silt skimmers for reasons unknown.

I am quite confused by this, as I have always assumed that elves did not ride mounts because their legs were considered far more capable of getting an elf from point A to point B. There is a pride in being able to run. There may be cultural pride in this being a tradition or sport passed on through the years.

I am not quite getting it how an elf would feel compelled not to ride a silt skimmer, or be mocked by his peers/family, because he decided to be brave enough to risk death in the silt sea by becoming a silt sailor. Maybe if the elf powered the silt skimmer while running on a treadmill, this would be an acceptable form of transportation? What if there were airships in Zalanthas? Would an elf also be mocked for flying in an airship because pride demands he run on the clouds as an alternative? What if water and oceans returned to Zalanthas? Would an elf never be able to cross the ocean because they'd have to go on a boat?

Elven whirans have flown around in the game and this has been accepted as normal for elves.

I feel that the elven taboo on riding mounts makes some sense regarding the elven nomadic history and their physical prowess at running long distances. But being forbidden from silt skimmers, airships, and whatever else, seems to be taking this limitation way too far and completely misses the point of why the elven taboo exists in the first place.

What are your thoughts on this?

I think it should be fine if the point is to go somewhere one can't go by land. But not if one were moving from one land-point to another (say, traveling from one dock to another along the same shore).

But this is one where staff will need to weigh in.

The search function is your friend.

This has come up countless times - here's a few relevant threads, some of which staff have commented on:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39620.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35327.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39609.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35326.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39640.msg554269.html#msg554269

And that's just from the first page.
Many of the answers to your questions are contained within.

The general impression I get as to why they don't do it is that in their minds, ride and 'be passenger' are pretty much the same thing to them. To ride on a skimmer, ect, would be to admit that their legs are too 'weak' to carry them to where they want, blah blah blah and such.

As for people who have some innate ability to fly, well, I guess that counts as them indeed 'running' to where they want to be.

It's not perfect, but at the moment it's the way it is. Until it changes, at least.

This is something I never agree with staff on. City-elves should be able to run, imo.

Personally I figured skimmers would be ok at first because it's not animal powered, people have to push off with skimmer poles, climb the rigging, trim the sails, all that good stuff. Figured if the elf was at least participating in a group effort it would be ok. But I guess since the elf can't do it all by herself she'll have to settle for a canoe, with special attachments so she can row with her feet.

Maybe it'd be okay if they were stealing it.

Or maybe elves are just smart enough to not get on one of them things.

Bah. I've read these threads and the arguments against either don't make sense to me or they link to a bazillion other arguments against it that don't make sense to me. It would be nice if the helpfiles for city elf roleplay and such included some mention of skimmers and how one tribal elder fell off a skimmer one day so nobody rides them. Meanwhile countless elves have either been executed or now have the nickname stumpy from getting caught thieving too much, but it was GLORIOUS...

At least put it out in the open so the notion doesn't occur to people and they get their hopes up only to be kicked in the face later. It's very disappointing to spend several days thinking about how cool the concept is and someone comes and slaps it out of your hands and it shatters on the ground and they say "Nope! Should have picked through ancient forum threads before you went to daydreaming!". I typed help elf, help city elf, help city elf roleplay... I seriously got no hint about that. Is it ok to dangle from a rope on the side of the skimmer shouting directions and consider it leading a load bearing beast?

It doesn't make sense but there you have it. We had discussions about it, staff have their own opinion (wrong, but they're human). So just stay away from skimmers if you're an elf.

I wish elves could ride skimmers too.

The way I read the docs when I first read about elves and not riding, I believe it was written as "Elves refuse to let another creature bear their weight". So I thought: No mounts? Got it. No wagons or argosies or chariots pulled by mounts ... got it.

A skimmer? It's an object you step on. If an elf refused to let a skimmer bear their weight, how about the second story of a building? Or their boots? Or the ground they're running on. None of those things be alive and if you're piloting the skimmer and working the sails and and rudder well then you're moving by your own locomotion and effort every bit as much as if you were running/flying/sneaking/whatever.

But like others have said, it is what it is. Elves don't get on skimmers. *shrug*

Maybe elves secretly know they're in a game, and refuse to be on something codedly similar to an argosy?  ;D

Joking of course.  :P

apartments in luirs

I don't get it or agree with it either. It seems pretty arbitrary to me. I mean - if they can't ride on skimmers because it's a matter of pride that their legs carry them where they do...

then they shouldn't be capable of flying either. Because when you're flying, your legs aren't doing a damned thing. You're being carried by the wind itself. Your feet aren't even touching a plank of wood, let alone the ground.

But since it's okay and acceptable for an elf to fly around using the wind as their vehicle, without their legs and feet touching -anything at all- then it makes the "no silt skimming" rule seem just very very arbitrary.

Not to argue with someone who is speaking in favor of something I am in favor of, but... What I was reading seemed to imply that using magic to fly (as long as it was your own magic) was moving by your own power, much like running, while somehow a skimmer isn't, being a group effort to harness the wind. I'd think elves were about group effort, being tribal and all, but I don't really know because I think you'd have to start off in Tuluk or the Rinth to find out IC without any karma, from what I gather. Maybe their independent streak runs so deep they go out hunting or stealing alone, but return with the fruits of their labor to supply their tribe?

Does that mean you can't borrow someone else's tent?

I'm really having trouble understanding.

Telling a city elf they can't do that because they can't trust a skimmer crew is like telling them they can't join the Byn because they might be intentionally killed in the sparring hall, or drug out into the desert for a "contract" until they get too tired to run and gutted. I don't think it'd be likely, but hey, it could happen.

Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

At some point in the documentation/website migration, this section was removed from the helpfile for elves:

QuoteThe differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result
of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

and

QuoteIn other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

I've gone ahead and added those two sections back and added in "skimmers" for the second bit.

It's not a matter of trusting the crew, but a matter of pride in their running.

edited to fix that last line, it's not a matter of "trusting" their legs

From what I gather, elves refuse to ride because they take pride in being able to walk or run long distances (apparently not enough to keep up with everyones' beetles but assumingly better than other races on foot?) which other races cannot. I thought that this was more of a 'this is one way my race is the best race' thing, than anything else, if it is even anything else.

The thing with the silt skimmers is, no race, elves either, can walk on silt, and would be a moron to try. Anyone can attempt to walk down the North Road. That's why I think it should be fine for elves to get on the skimmers. No one can walking on the freaking silt. Or we can do a thing where elves apparently don't care because they're all Tolkein-style prideful assholes with their chin upraised and a bored look on their face all the time.

A parallel culturally would be the Dothraki tribal humans in A Song of Ice and Fire.  They don't trust salt water because their horses can't drink from it.  Ergo, they do not sail.  Ergo, they are no threat to people across the Sea.  Obviously, they're full of crap--you can sail on water.  (As a side note, at least some of them do eventually change their minds, which is beside the point--they ones that change are exceptions to the Martin documentation for Dothraki, and given explicit approval.)

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 08:43:33 AM
Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

If this holds true, I could see an elf riding a skimmer if he did so on his lonesome, or with his tribesmen and nobody else, perhaps.

Quote from: Patuk on May 15, 2013, 09:12:02 AM

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 08:43:33 AM
Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

If this holds true, I could see an elf riding a skimmer if he did so on his lonesome, or with his tribesmen and nobody else, perhaps.

How?

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 09:13:17 AM

Quote from: Patuk on May 15, 2013, 09:12:02 AM

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 08:43:33 AM
Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

If this holds true, I could see an elf riding a skimmer if he did so on his lonesome, or with his tribesmen and nobody else, perhaps.

How?

Same way they can move around using magicks?

I might be missing what you are meaning, but what does the tribe/being alone have to do with it?  It is not the elf's own two legs propelling her through the Silt.  They are on a skimmer.

Obviously, the solution is paddleboats.

Foot powered paddleboats

Still, it has been 4 years since we last discussed it staff-side; I put up a new thread on it.

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 08:43:33 AM
Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

At some point in the documentation/website migration, this section was removed from the helpfile for elves:

QuoteThe differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result
of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

and

QuoteIn other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

I've gone ahead and added those two sections back and added in "skimmers" for the second bit.

It's not a matter of trusting the crew, but a matter of pride in their running.

edited to fix that last line, it's not a matter of "trusting" their legs

1. Thanks Nyr, for putting up a new discussion thread for it on your staff board. We bitch and moan about what we want/don't want, revisit topics all the time, but it's encouraging to know that the staff is considering the topics as well.

2. Pride in their running - natural speed and endurance on the run - neither of them have anything to do with harnessing the power of the element Whira. I'm not saying one should be implemented and not the other, or that both should be equal. I'm saying that when you say "X is true" that doesn't mean that "Y is also true" and I think it should be better clarified in the docs. Like maybe add - "matter of pride in their running and their power over the elements" or something like that.

3. This here:

QuoteThe differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result
of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Means there is only one elven race, and the only difference is the result of lifestyle, not physiology. So that would imply that city elves should be able to run with the same stamina penalties and speed as desert elves. Or - again - something needs to be added to the snippet to explain that the physiological changes resulted from the lifestyle over a period of several kings' ages. Or something like that.

Not a criticism - just suggestions to help clarify the docs. I vaguely remember that thing about the lifestyle, and wasn't it taken out because of the disparity of desert elves vs. city elves with run/stamina?

I never thought about the whole "skimmer" thing. Wagons make pefect sense. They can run anywhere a wagon can go.

It is interesting though. If the issue is, "They are too proud of their natural endurance on the run.", and the mode of transportation is through an area where running is impossible, even for them, how could taking that mode of transportation damage their pride in regards to running?

If there is ever a floating island in the sky in Armageddon and the only way to get there is to take an airship or get magicked through the air, would elves refuse to fly to that island and never visit it? It is impossible to run there on your legs, so, being flown there wouldn't seem to damage their pride in their endurance/running.

In these scenarios, floating islands, the silt sea, running isn't an option, so it isn't like they are choosing to ride and not run on their own two legs. You can't run there. Elves are smart enough to realize that. It isn't a matter of choice. It is a matter of rational necessity. Reasonably, no other elf is going to look at them and say, "You rode a silt skimmer across the sea and didn't run across it instead? YOU ARE A SHAME TO YOUR RACE! YOU SHOULD HAVE RAN IT!"

I just don't see how not doing something in an environment where it is impossible to do such would rationally hurt someone's pride.

But then I'm assuming that this is a rational thing.

If the answer is, "We know it isn't rational. It isn't supposed to be rational. Elves are very irrational about this subject."

Then we are good to go I guess.

It might be best to just say that elves are proud of their own natural (or unnatural) ability to move around, and leave out the specific declaration on running. That would explain a bunch of things, including the fact that elves are one race but the schism of cultures between desert and city elves resulted in different conditioning for each sub-group, and make it clear that it's okay for elves to use magic on themselves to move their bodies in different ways. It could also justify an elf using a skimmer so long as they are piloting it, without justifying the use of wagons or mounts because there are "better" ways for an elf to move.

Some philosophy questions regarding elven taboos:


Is it taboo for an elf to wear climbing gloves/boots when climbing a cliff? The tool emulates a beast (claws and leather of a beast), and provides the elf with an artificial way of getting up the cliff that doesn't rely solely on hands and feet. What if the elf was able to build a back-worn glider out of avian bones and feathers? Would the elf be ok with using climbing gloves but not the glider?

Is it taboo for an elf to use a rope while climbing, when the climb may actually be possible without it? (but more risky)

Is it taboo for an elf to use a ladder to get from one height to another? If there is no other way up besides this ladder (no possible way to climb), then do they simply refuse to use a ladder, or the ladder is fine in this case? What if the ladder is twenty feet tall and sits in a library, and has wheels that can push it around the bookshelves (making it a form of transportation)? Can the elf climb the ladder at this point? Or do the wheels or size of the ladder now make it a taboo to ride? (Especially if another elf pushes the ladder when the elf is on it)

What if an elf stole a magical stone from a sorcerer, and by holding this stone, he could hover across the ground. Travelling over the silt sea is possible as long as this elf holds the stone. Would an elf use this stone because they can control their flight, or would they refuse it, because it's a tool that assists travel, and elves don't use tools that assist travel (this would probably include climbing gloves/boots, ropes, as well as the stone). What if this elf sews this same stone into the seams of his boots, and now has flying boots. Would using these boots to hover over the silt sea be a taboo? Would the boots be regarded in the same way as climbing boots? Or would it be regarded in the same way as an elf would regard a glider?

After being knocked out in a slaver attack on her tribe, a desert elf wakes up on an island, surrounded on all sides by the silt sea. There is a silt skimmer docked nearby, and two men can be seen playing Kruth on large stone nearby. The elf's wrists have been tied, but she thinks she might be able to cut the bonds on a nearby rock if she's subtle about it. What is the elf thinking right now? Would she be planning her escape? Stealing the skimmer? Killing her attackers? Or would she first be thinking about the great shame she would endure once she kills her kidnappers, steals their skimmer, and shamefully crosses the sea to search for the rest of her tribe? Maybe it's better to die on the island than to steal the skimmer?

I was going to throw my opinion out on Whiran elves and skimming elves. I think I'll refrain from one.

Elves on skimmers... to me it falls under the same category of wagons, if you're an elf, you don't ride. Period.

Fair point to say that elves aren't rational.

Quote from: Lizzie on May 15, 2013, 10:08:23 AM
So that would imply that city elves should be able to run with the same stamina penalties and speed as desert elves.

Not necessarily, no.  You're mixing up code with culture--the doc is there to explain more than elves are part of the same race.  There is more to the city elf than simply not being able to do the exact same thing a desert elf can do in the same environment a desert elf does it.  While it isn't laid down in helpfiles or documentation (maybe it should be?) it is (hopefully?) apparent to those that play city elves.

Quote
Or - again - something needs to be added to the snippet to explain that the physiological changes resulted from the lifestyle over a period of several kings' ages. Or something like that.

There aren't really things that I would call physiological changes.  Desert elves are more adept in an outdoors environment; city elves are more adept in an indoors/city environment.

Quote
Not a criticism - just suggestions to help clarify the docs. I vaguely remember that thing about the lifestyle, and wasn't it taken out because of the disparity of desert elves vs. city elves with run/stamina?

I don't remember that.  While it is possible it was removed deliberately, I would assume it was part of the website revamp/DB issue.  I can check into that, though!

Also, the first dwarf I am ever going to play.

The sinister-grin-scarred, cruel-eyed dwarf

Focus:

Capture elves
Strap elves to mounts
Lead elves around on mounts while mocking them for riding until they go insane
Release insane elves back into the desert
???
Profit

Quote from: Desertman on May 15, 2013, 10:25:30 AM
Also, the first dwarf I am ever going to play.

The sinister-grin-scarred, cruel-eyed dwarf

Focus:

Capture elves
Strap elves to mounts
Lead elves around on mounts while mocking them for riding until they go insane
Release insane elves back inot the desert
???
Profit

I laughed so hard coffee shot out my nose./me hearts D-Man in that insane relative kinda way.

I see elves riding about on inix like they own the place.

Quote from: Desertman on May 15, 2013, 10:25:30 AM
Also, the first dwarf I am ever going to play.

The sinister-grin-scarred, cruel-eyed dwarf

Focus:

Capture elves
Strap elves to mounts
Lead elves around on mounts while mocking them for riding until they go insane
Release insane elves back into the desert
???
Profit

That happened to one of the Red Fangs of old, iirc. No embarrassment ensued when she returned home strapped to erdlu's back.

Also, in a couple of posts this thread will degenerate into "would an elf sit on a chair? it has legs that are not his own"

edit: what's the difference between a ladder and a cliff wall with suitable handholds anyway?

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:24:45 AM
Fair point to say that elves aren't rational.

This.  Finally.

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:24:45 AM
elves aren't rational.

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:24:45 AM
elves aren't rational.

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:24:45 AM
elves aren't rational.

Also I've never understood this burning offense that elves can't go on skimmers.  Why do some people believe that any character should be able to go anywhere in the game or do anything in the game?

Elves can't go on skimmers.
Southern nobles/templars can't go north, northern nobles/templars can't go south. (Generally)
Aides don't get to explore the deep wastes.
Gypsies don't get to see the Allanaki senate.
No one gets to ride the gypsy water slides but the gypsies.
There are dozens of other highly secret places in the world that none but a very select few will ever go.

I will not be moved by any power other than my own.

Quote from: Withered Ocotillo on May 15, 2013, 10:23:24 AM
Some philosophy questions regarding elven taboos:


Is it taboo for an elf to wear climbing gloves/boots when climbing a cliff?

No.

QuoteWhat if the elf was able to build a back-worn glider out of avian bones and feathers?  Would the elf be ok with using climbing gloves but not the glider?

We don't have code for it, or any existing glider objects, so we'd nix it before they mastercrafted it.  The question is now unnecessary.

QuoteIs it taboo for an elf to use a rope while climbing, when the climb may actually be possible without it? (but more risky)

No.

QuoteIs it taboo for an elf to use a ladder to get from one height to another?

No.

QuoteIf there is no other way up besides this ladder (no possible way to climb), then do they simply refuse to use a ladder, or the ladder is fine in this case?

We covered this above.

QuoteWhat if the ladder is twenty feet tall and sits in a library, and has wheels that can push it around the bookshelves (making it a form of transportation)?

The elf should be executed for stealing books, or for trying to read; any library is surely guarded and trespassing in such an area by an elf should be treated with the most extreme measures.

QuoteCan the elf climb the ladder at this point?

No, because the elf is dead.

QuoteOr do the wheels or size of the ladder now make it a taboo to ride? (Especially if another elf pushes the ladder when the elf is on it)

Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.

QuoteWhat if an elf stole a magical stone from a sorcerer, and by holding this stone, he could hover across the ground. Travelling over the silt sea is possible as long as this elf holds the stone. Would an elf use this stone because they can control their flight, or would they refuse it, because it's a tool that assists travel, and elves don't use tools that assist travel (this would probably include climbing gloves/boots, ropes, as well as the stone). What if this elf sews this same stone into the seams of his boots, and now has flying boots. Would using these boots to hover over the silt sea be a taboo? Would the boots be regarded in the same way as climbing boots? Or would it be regarded in the same way as an elf would regard a glider?

Tell you what:  you play an elf that actually has reason to want to steal a magickal stone from a sorcerer, and actually manages to do it, and actually gets to the edge of the Silt Sea, and we'll talk then.  This is silly.

Quote
After being knocked out in a slaver attack on her tribe, a desert elf wakes up on an island, surrounded on all sides by the silt sea. There is a silt skimmer docked nearby, and two men can be seen playing Kruth on large stone nearby. The elf's wrists have been tied, but she thinks she might be able to cut the bonds on a nearby rock if she's subtle about it. What is the elf thinking right now?

"Wow, these are some dumb slavers.  Who are they going to sell me to out here?  Wouldn't it be way easier to just sell me to one of the pits?  Wait, am I a city-elf or a desert-elf?  I guess if I'm a city elf, why did they take me away from my city to this island?  Wow, these are some dumb slavers."

QuoteWould she be planning her escape?

Escape to where?  She's on an island.  She's never seen an island before.  She may not even know the word for island.  Which direction does she go, can she even see Suk-Krath clearly through the haze?

QuoteStealing the skimmer?

Stealing it to do what?  How would she know anything about what a skimmer does?  She's an elf.

QuoteKilling her attackers?

Well they weren't attackers, they were slavers, right?  She'd probably try to swindle them; this would be an epic opportunity!  Or maybe she'd wait and show that she is alert and find out exactly what these slavers are planning to do with her way out here.

QuoteOr would she first be thinking about the great shame she would endure once she kills her kidnappers, steals their skimmer, and shamefully crosses the sea to search for the rest of her tribe?

Yeah, I doubt she's going to know how to pilot a skimmer or know where to go.  She wouldn't be thinking about great shame, she'd be thinking about the absurdity of the situation.

Quote
Maybe it's better to die on the island than to steal the skimmer?

Maybe so.  It really looks like a contrived situation that no elf PC has ever or will ever come across.

While it may not really be noticeable or necessary, I did add "willingly" to the elf docs.  It's great that we can change this stuff so quickly.

QuoteIn other words, elves will never willingly
ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers, as to do so would be to
insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and
endurance on the run.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on May 15, 2013, 10:37:17 AM
Also I've never understood this burning offense that elves can't go on skimmers.  Why do some people believe that any character should be able to go anywhere in the game or do anything in the game?

No one's offended by restrictions. You'll never see soh players bitching because they won't see the senate. It's just that reducing the elven mindset to "with my two legs" is silly. All elves are more or less insane, yes, but they're smart and adaptable. In a hypothetical situation where a tribe's survival hinged on getting to island A, I can see them all hopping onto a skimmer without second thought. After all, they did settle the cities at one point in time, even though half of the first generation probably went nuts from claustrophobia.

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:44:54 AM
While it may not really be noticeable or necessary, I did add "willingly" to the elf docs.  It's great that we can change this stuff so quickly.

QuoteIn other words, elves will never willingly
ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers, as to do so would be to
insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and
endurance on the run.

I take credit for this.  8)

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:41:40 AM

Quote from: Withered Ocotillo on May 15, 2013, 10:23:24 AM
Some philosophy questions regarding elven taboos:


Is it taboo for an elf to wear climbing gloves/boots when climbing a cliff?

No.

QuoteWhat if the elf was able to build a back-worn glider out of avian bones and feathers?  Would the elf be ok with using climbing gloves but not the glider?

We don't have code for it, or any existing glider objects, so we'd nix it before they mastercrafted it.  The question is now unnecessary.

QuoteIs it taboo for an elf to use a rope while climbing, when the climb may actually be possible without it? (but more risky)

No.

QuoteIs it taboo for an elf to use a ladder to get from one height to another?

No.

QuoteIf there is no other way up besides this ladder (no possible way to climb), then do they simply refuse to use a ladder, or the ladder is fine in this case?

We covered this above.

QuoteWhat if the ladder is twenty feet tall and sits in a library, and has wheels that can push it around the bookshelves (making it a form of transportation)?

The elf should be executed for stealing books, or for trying to read; any library is surely guarded and trespassing in such an area by an elf should be treated with the most extreme measures.

QuoteCan the elf climb the ladder at this point?

No, because the elf is dead.

QuoteOr do the wheels or size of the ladder now make it a taboo to ride? (Especially if another elf pushes the ladder when the elf is on it)

Dead elves can ride wheeled ladders just fine.

Armageddon Helpers take note here of how you give helpful and detailed responses to player questions.

Guys, elves can <redacted>.  They don't need skimmers.

Quote from: Molten Heart on May 15, 2013, 11:50:48 AM
Guys, elves can walk on silt.  They don't need skimmers.

Hahah, that's like saying that someone actually walked on water and try to convince me that people would actually believe it!

Oh you!  ;D

Quote from: Marauder Moe on May 15, 2013, 10:37:17 AM

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:24:45 AM
Fair point to say that elves aren't rational.

This.  Finally.

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:24:45 AM
elves aren't rational.

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:24:45 AM
elves aren't rational.

Quote from: Nyr on May 15, 2013, 10:24:45 AM
elves aren't rational.

No one gets to ride the gypsy water slides but the gypsies.

Gypsies have water slides?

Hey elf, you should just go swim in the silt sea. You don't need a skimmer, pshaw, you can use your arms and legs to get where you want. Not like those other weak races. Drov, you'll show them, yes, you'll back stroke right on by as they labor, clustered tight and sweaty in those odd things called skimmers. You can point and laugh, then catch the next wave of silt and body surf the rest of the way.

Quote from: Withered Ocotillo on May 15, 2013, 10:23:24 AM
Is it taboo for an elf to wear climbing gloves/boots when climbing a cliff? The tool emulates a beast (claws and leather of a beast), and provides the elf with an artificial way of getting up the cliff that doesn't rely solely on hands and feet.

I think elves are fine with things like boots. In normal running, you'll see elves wearing boots. If it was a problem that they couldn't wear boots at all, then they wouldn't. I see what you're trying to question here... I think the difference is that the elf is still trying on their muscles. It's their leg muscles propelling them up the cliff, even if they have some assistance from climbing boots or gloves.

You could argue that riding also uses muscles, but it's different because it's depending on an actual creature. An elf won't put up with that, because that would mean relying on someone/something besides itself.

Quote from: Withered Ocotillo on May 15, 2013, 10:23:24 AMWhat if the elf was able to build a back-worn glider out of avian bones and feathers? Would the elf be ok with using climbing gloves but not the glider?

Staff (Nyr) said this wasn't possible, but I'll answer anyway. I would venture a guess that this would not be okay. Why? Because the tool required is complex. Similar to a skimmer, without this tool, the task is impossible. With climbing, the task is possible but made easier by a tool. Thus, there is no dependency on a tool. With a glider or skimmer, there is dependency on a tool. Elves want to do it themselves, they rely on nothing!

QuoteIs it taboo for an elf to use a rope while climbing, when the climb may actually be possible without it? (but more risky)

See above.

QuoteIs it taboo for an elf to use a ladder to get from one height to another? If there is no other way up besides this ladder (no possible way to climb), then do they simply refuse to use a ladder, or the ladder is fine in this case? What if the ladder is twenty feet tall and sits in a library, and has wheels that can push it around the bookshelves (making it a form of transportation)? Can the elf climb the ladder at this point? Or do the wheels or size of the ladder now make it a taboo to ride? (Especially if another elf pushes the ladder when the elf is on it)

A ladder would be fine. Why? Because it is a simple tool. An elf can climb on it's own, a ladder makes it easier. I think that the change here is that an elf pushing an elf on a wheeled ladder is not okay. Why? Because that elf is now depending on someone else, and that just isn't okay in the elven pride mindset.

QuoteWhat if an elf stole a magical stone from a sorcerer, and by holding this stone, he could hover across the ground. Travelling over the silt sea is possible as long as this elf holds the stone. Would an elf use this stone because they can control their flight, or would they refuse it, because it's a tool that assists travel, and elves don't use tools that assist travel (this would probably include climbing gloves/boots, ropes, as well as the stone). What if this elf sews this same stone into the seams of his boots, and now has flying boots. Would using these boots to hover over the silt sea be a taboo? Would the boots be regarded in the same way as climbing boots? Or would it be regarded in the same way as an elf would regard a glider?

I would guess that an elf would not use the stone. Why? Because he is too dependent on the item. It isn't like climbing boots, rope, or ladders. It is a singular object on which the elf would be totally dependent. An elf is relying on it's power, rather then his/her own. If an elf refuses to be magickally flown by another, then it stands to reason that an elf would refuse such a tool. The reasoning is very similar to that of a glider.

QuoteAfter being knocked out in a slaver attack on her tribe, a desert elf wakes up on an island, surrounded on all sides by the silt sea. There is a silt skimmer docked nearby, and two men can be seen playing Kruth on large stone nearby. The elf's wrists have been tied, but she thinks she might be able to cut the bonds on a nearby rock if she's subtle about it. What is the elf thinking right now? Would she be planning her escape? Stealing the skimmer? Killing her attackers? Or would she first be thinking about the great shame she would endure once she kills her kidnappers, steals their skimmer, and shamefully crosses the sea to search for the rest of her tribe? Maybe it's better to die on the island than to steal the skimmer?

This seems like a very extreme example. It does seem pretty odd that slavers would bring an elf to an island in the middle of the silt sea. There would be a great deal of shame in this; she was transported here against her own power. I agree with Nyr that an elf would probably try and swindle someone; that's what elves do. Would the elf ever get off the island? An elf may well find it preferable to stay on an island then do anything else. Perhaps the elf would work to find a way that their own legs could take them across the sea. In any event, this seems unlikely (though maybe someone will try it now!). I think that the individual elf would have to RP out the situation, and perhaps ask staff for guidance at that point in time.

---

Quote from: Withered Ocotillo on May 15, 2013, 11:31:29 AM
Armageddon Helpers take note here of how you give helpful and detailed responses to player questions.

Hopefully these answers were helpful. It's hard for staff to answer something when lots of improbable situations are outlined. A better approach would probably be to discuss the generals behind why an elf thinks how it does, rather then getting into a very long list of theoretical situations. An example would be asking: "Why does an elf's view on tools such as a rope, climbing boots, or ladders (potentially) vary from their views on mounts, wagons, and silt skimmers? If they had a flying glider, what would their view on that be?"

The above is a lot shorter, and still gets to the point. As said above, I believe that an elf's view on any object is if they are dependent on it or not. Would the task be impossible without it, or does it make it easier? Does it require relying on something living besides the elf? If an object just makes a task easier, an elf is probably fine with it. If an elf has to rely on said object, I think that is where elves would refuse, because of their pride. They rely on nothing but themselves for movement!

Quote from: Taven on May 15, 2013, 04:19:57 PM

The above is a lot shorter, and still gets to the point. As said above, I believe that an elf's view on any object is if they are dependent on it or not. Would the task be impossible without it, or does it make it easier? Does it require relying on something living besides the elf? If an object just makes a task easier, an elf is probably fine with it. If an elf has to rely on said object, I think that is where elves would refuse, because of their pride. They rely on nothing but themselves for movement!

So, using your logic, if they had to be dependent on the power of Whira to fly (such as - calling on the power of whira, for instance), and were not able to fly by the power of their own bodies - then they wouldn't fly.

Hm.

I still don't see how elves are able to use pack mounts given the logic that they are too proud to let anything but their own power move themselves.

If they are so proud that they can't ride, I don't see how having another creature carry the things you need is ok.

"I won't ride, because I am strong and capable and can carry myself, but, I'm too weak to carry these things I need, and admit it, so I will let a mount carry it for me while I walk."

Quote from: Desertman on May 15, 2013, 05:00:15 PM
"I won't ride, because I am strong and capable and can carry myself, but, I'm too weak to carry these things I need, and admit it, so I will let a mount carry it for me while I walk."

Yeah, it's so irrational, it's hardly even human.

Well I mean... Elven strength is notoriously bad. Carrying more than their clothes is already a bitch.

Quote from: Morrolan on May 15, 2013, 05:07:01 PM

Quote from: Desertman on May 15, 2013, 05:00:15 PM
"I won't ride, because I am strong and capable and can carry myself, but, I'm too weak to carry these things I need, and admit it, so I will let a mount carry it for me while I walk."

Yeah, it's so irrational, it's hardly even human.

This is the worst excuse ever.

Quote from: Lizzie on May 15, 2013, 04:56:17 PM

Quote from: Taven on May 15, 2013, 04:19:57 PM

The above is a lot shorter, and still gets to the point. As said above, I believe that an elf's view on any object is if they are dependent on it or not. Would the task be impossible without it, or does it make it easier? Does it require relying on something living besides the elf? If an object just makes a task easier, an elf is probably fine with it. If an elf has to rely on said object, I think that is where elves would refuse, because of their pride. They rely on nothing but themselves for movement!

So, using your logic, if they had to be dependent on the power of Whira to fly (such as - calling on the power of whira, for instance), and were not able to fly by the power of their own bodies - then they wouldn't fly.

Hm.

I see what you're saying, and it could be a fair point.

I would argue, however, that Whira is just a tool in this case, but it's not a tool that can be taken away (at least generally speaking). In the case of an elementalist, it's inborn and part of you. It is not an object you are relying on. It's not the same as a magickal floating rock that someone can steal. You need to work to learn how to call Whira, and if you can use it for transportation at all is based on your hard work.

Could you argue that's similar to a mount, because learning to ride is hard work? Sure. But the mount is something that can be taken away, and is an actual creature that you're relying on, rather then a power source (which is how elves, and most people, probably think of Whira as being).

Quote from: Desertman on May 15, 2013, 05:00:15 PM
I still don't see how elves are able to use pack mounts given the logic that they are too proud to let anything but their own power move themselves.

If they are so proud that they can't ride, I don't see how having another creature carry the things you need is ok.

"I won't ride, because I am strong and capable and can carry myself, but, I'm too weak to carry these things I need, and admit it, so I will let a mount carry it for me while I walk."

I'll admit, this has never made a ton of sense to me.

I guess it's just one of those mentality things. Carrying you is different from carrying your stuff. Just like a northern noble kanking a slave is different from kanking a commoner. Well, wait, isn't that slave still not a noble? Yes, but the way that slaves are viewed is different, and that makes it okay.

So elves riding summoned mounts are okay?

Quote from: Inks on May 15, 2013, 06:20:39 PM
So elves riding summoned mounts are okay?

Nope.

Quote from: Inks on May 15, 2013, 06:20:39 PM
So elves riding summoned mounts are okay?

An elf can find and capture a mount using his/her own two legs. An elf can summon a mount using his/her own magick power.

In both of these cases, riding the mount is not okay, because in both cases it is depending on another creature for moving them. Elven pride prohibits this.

Now wearing boots is fine because the elf can run without boots so the tool is just helping while a skimmer is not fine because the elf couldn't go on silt without the skimmer ... but ... the elf couldn't go flying without a whiran spell ... but ... that's ok ... because erm ... you can't steal the spell away from the elf ... but ... you can steal the boots ... ... erm ...

o.O

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2013, 06:48:40 PM
Now wearing boots is fine because the elf can run without boots so the tool is just helping while a skimmer is not fine because the elf couldn't go on silt without the skimmer ... but ... the elf couldn't go flying without a whiran spell ... but ... that's ok ... because erm ... you can't steal the spell away from the elf ... but ... you can steal the boots ... ... erm ...

o.O

That is exactly my point. I mean - if it's all arbitrary, just say so. But the whole "you can do this, but not that, because this is a, and that is a, but only kind of, because then there's a little of b, which is in a already, but not in the same way as it is with the other thing..." is just convoluted and contrived.

I think what this thread is basically saying, at least to me, is, elves are freakin' nuts and you'll never understand them so why are you trying? And I suppose the answer is that I start with the assumption that it has to start making sense somewhere, and I need to keep looking around until I see it because otherwise, yeah, I'll never understand them.

I don't want to hear about the risks involved and elves being smart. This doesn't stand up to much inspection at all and always looked to me like some sand to throw in someone's eyes who is asking questions. Yes, elves are smart, and from what I've observed, partial to really dumb things which are not in their interests all the time, or even any time. These are not the elves you're looking for *handwaves*. They take pride in their ability to do these things, as it justifies their sense of superiority over other races, or that's how I gather it works.

It's hard for me, as a player without hardly any examples from certain areas to look at as examples, aside from the occasional crazy elf does crazy thing and makes interesting decoration in the street, at least until they rot. Presents interesting challenges to understanding. You keep looking around because it's something you want to understand better but there's not really much to see.

I'm never playing a Tuluki again, before anyone suggests. Maybe not always true, but for me it was, once you go 'Nak, you never go back. Subtle is still something I'm learning to do.

I'd like to thank Taven for taking the time to respond in detail to all my questions and not dismissing them as a joke.

You've given some of the most descriptive arguments on why an elf would distinguish tools differently from mounts. The argument seems to be that if a tool assists the natural abilities of the elf (climbing or running, for climbing gloves or running shoes), then it is considered acceptable. Using physical muscles are also a requirement for the tool to be considered acceptable.

So basically, if someone were to create silt-skis or silt-snowshoes that allowed someone to walk on silt under their own power, could we say that this would be acceptable? The magic hover-stone in the boots idea was dismissed as unacceptable for an elf to use, and is that because the elf doesn't need to move their legs while floating?

If an elf created a glider where they had to flap their arms to keep aloft, using their arm muscles to control their descent, would this also be acceptable? Or is it not acceptable because elves can't fly without assistance? Elves can't walk on silt without assistance, either. And elves can't climb some surfaces without a rope, either.

So let's take three things an elf can't do naturally:

1) Climb a sheer vertical surface
2) Run across silt
3) Fly in the air

And then we look at the tools that could make this possible (assuming these items all exist, for the sake of better understanding the elven mentality, and not to get them coded as items):

1) A rope
2) Silt-skis/silt-snowshoes
3) Arm-powered glider

If #1 is ok but #2 and #3 are not, then I feel we need a better explanation as to why that is. If all three points are considered acceptable, then I think we're one step closer to understanding the elven mentality of why they won't "ride" transportation.

Quote from: Fujikoma on May 15, 2013, 08:12:04 PM
I'm never playing a Tuluki again, before anyone suggests. Maybe not always true, but for me it was, once you go 'Nak, you never go back.

Oh, you'll be back...

...preferably with an occupying force.

I gotta say, I agree with how things are currently, I don't see Elves going on skimmers. Rarely any real reason to. Yes I see them flying (as rarely as it is I am sure that they have the power of whira as I some how doubt every elf has it) No I don't see them riding animals, and no I don't see them riding wagons and such.

I think the mentality of the 'elf' is what folks are missing. They are trying to humanize them. That they would have the same wide variety of wants and desires that humans have. Why not, oh I dunno, play a C-elf as a C-elf and stop trying to make them an Adventurer. Let's look at a nice section of 'help city elf roleplay'

All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery.
Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of
courage.

Theft is desirable simply because it is. If an elf sees something that
belongs to someone else, and provides moderate challenge for them,
they want to take it - simply for the sake of taking it. They may
even discard it later. They may never tell a soul about it (although
because of the respect it garners, they would tell tribemates or
those in their tribeless social circle). They simply take it for the
sake of the act itself. But a big part of what they get out of theft
is the sense of accomplishment, which they get from ever-increasing
challenges (and ever increasing boasts afterward).

Now, where does busting your ass and risking death on a SiltSkimmer make sense? I think it would make more sense, to wait till they are back in dock, and steal their haul, or part of it. Now some might argue "Oh but it says elves are bent towards wandering! Maybe mine wants to wander the silt sea!" Yea well, the exception to the rule is never the rule, and you could always special app for such a role. You can pretty much special app for anything, long as you accept that sometimes staff says no. And even if told yes, you will have internal moral conflicts with it, and be shunned by your own kind, and those around you.

So no, I don't think it should be changed.

The thing to keep in mind is, city-elves are only a couple generations away from surviving out in the desert, desert elves have countless generations of surviving out in the wilds. A city elf going out the gate is not the same as a desert elf walking into a city for the first time, in my opinion.

Wandering and thievery. Good 'nuff for me. City really isn't big enough for wandering. More than one kind of thievery, the blatant hands thing is illegal and isn't always the best way to get what you want, or desire for the sake of the challenge.

The busting your ass part makes sense, least to me, because elves are basically designed, according to the docs, to bust ass, not as slave labor, but as wild, free running creatures that refuse to ride a mount because that would be too easy. I don't see how that makes them lazy, in fact, I see nothing there that says "Elves don't do anything but wait until others have something to steal because they are lazy". Maybe that's hidden in some kind of thread necromancy apocrypha I haven't seen yet, if so, please post links. I disagree with narrow interpretations that pretty much pigeonhole a character into basically a single kind of role, destined to be short lived barring having some kind of support structure in the rinth.

I understood elves' mentality much more clearly when the docs explained that everything hinged on shame felt by allowing another creature to bear your weight for you. Once that was changed to be more abstract I feel like we sunk into a conjectural shit storm as far as making up logically consistent reasoning for it goes.

My current understanding goes something like: Don't get on mounts, wagons, or skimmers because staff said not to. Make up whatever justification you like to rationalize these restrictions within the framework of available documentation.

What's being stated is that elves don't ride skimmers for the same reasons they don't ride mounts or wagons.  While riding on a silt skimmer may or may not be reckless, that isn't the same reason elves aren't using mounts and wagons.

Did you meant to make two contradicting statements?  ???

Elves don't ride on things. Living or not, they simply do not ride on anything willingly.

Elves never go anywhere except their own power. Magicks are your own power, even if you're taking it from an element. Legs are your power. Mounts aren't, skimmers art. Do I find this reasonable? No. But at least this way, it makes sense. If you want your elf to travel the silt seas, learn sorcery or swindle people into building bridged between the islands and walk the bridges.

Quote from: BleakOne on May 15, 2013, 09:14:43 PM
Elves don't ride on things. Living or not, they simply do not ride on anything willingly.

Does not explain why elves refuse to fly via another elf's magick.

Quote from: MeTekillot on May 15, 2013, 09:19:48 PM
Elves never go anywhere except their own power. Magicks are your own power, even if you're taking it from an element. Legs are your power. Mounts aren't, skimmers art. Do I find this reasonable? No. But at least this way, it makes sense. If you want your elf to travel the silt seas, learn sorcery or swindle people into building bridged between the islands and walk the bridges.

Using a rope to climb an otherwise unscalable cliff is not using your own power, but elves do it.

There does not appear to be to be any clean cut justification that can explain the inconsistencies away. That's fine. That's why I have the current position I posted above.

Armageddon may be the ONLY "creative haven" that I have ever encountered to have a blanket rule that an entire race adheres to a specific cultural trait 100% of the time.  Nowhere in the history of actual mankind or fictional mankind or fictional elvenkind or fictional anythingkind has 100% of a sentient race of individual minds adhered to a cultural trait 100% of the time, without deviation, change, or evolution.  It makes no sense at all for this to be the case.  This isn't a case of trying to humanize elves - this is a case of trying to logically understand why millions upon millions of elves would never once in the entire history of their race even consider exploring the silt sea, climbing the unclimbable, or doing anything besides running on the sand, being shady businessmen, and stealing.

As more and more players join us in Armageddon's rich and varied world, more players will be interested in playing elves, and more of these new players will be interested in creatively exploring the boundaries of the elven mindset with roleplay, and writing GREAT and EPIC stories about their characters.  In my opinion, there should be a better balance between allowing creativity, and sternly telling new players that they should be ashamed for thinking of new ways to play elves.  Elves may be irrational, but they aren't the Borg - they have individual brains in between those pointed ears, and I find it hard to believe that not one of those brains in all the history of elvenkind ever thought of deviating from this cultural expectation of not relying on anything but their own two legs (even though they also rely on: each other, their non-elven friends and clanmates to not kill them as they're regenerating stamina in the desert, mounts to carry their things, ropes and ladders to climb walls, and the wind to carry them if they're able to use magick.)

I'm just going to say it again, because I like frustrating myself. City elves need some sort of better running, even if it's only in cities. Ignore this derail. I'm sorry.

Quote from: Withered Ocotillo on May 15, 2013, 08:14:07 PM
I'd like to thank Taven for taking the time to respond in detail to all my questions and not dismissing them as a joke.

Given your history on your other GDB accounts, are you really surprised anyone applied some humor to your hypotheticals on this account (some of which were-admittedly--pretty crazy)?  Lighten up a little bit!

I vote we rewrite all skimmer descriptions so they have silt horrors and silt crabs tethered to the front of them and no sails. Boom! Elves are rational again and still can't ever go in the silt sea! Players and staff alike rejoice and be satisfied  :D

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2013, 09:50:29 PM
I vote we rewrite all skimmer descriptions so they have silt horrors and silt crabs tethered to the front of them and no sails. Boom! Elves are rational again and still can't ever go in the silt sea! Players and staff alike rejoice and be satisfied  :D

Maybe they're really just a bunch of silt turtles lashed together?

I found myself laughing for a while at the humorous reply to those crazy questions, then again, I found myself laughing at a lot of things, I hadn't slept in a while and tried to play but quickly realized my brain was too gunked to do so and got a nap.

Wise elves seeing no utility in mounts has always been a clash of ideas. I understand pride, but surely Elves must see other races travel the Known in a day or two. Elven traders and merchants would see this most readily.  There simply has to come a point where the Elven race, as a species, sees its place in the world as weakened because it stubbornly refuses a form of transportation that allows others to cover far more territory and haul far more equipment than a solitary, lightweight Elf can.

That's no problem gfair because desert elves can run faster and further than a mount. Their legs are like frickin magick! And they use pack animals to carry the heavy trade stuff.

City elves ... well ... just generally shouldn't travel.

Quote from: gfair on May 15, 2013, 10:00:40 PM
Wise elves seeing no utility in mounts has always been a clash of ideas. I understand pride, but surely Elves must see other races travel the Known in a day or two. Elven traders and merchants would see this most readily.  There simply has to come a point where the Elven race, as a species, sees its place in the world as weakened because it stubbornly refuses a form of transportation that allows others to cover far more territory and haul far more equipment than a solitary, lightweight Elf can.

Yeah, I.. I'm going to have to throw in here that elves don't quite think in terms of species. There's me, my brothers, my parents, and everyone related to them, the people I trust. And there's 'them.' 'Them' can be anyone, and it certainly includes other elves. Add this to elves never, ever, at all seeing themselves as inferior to other beings, and, well.. Yeah, this isn't going to happen.

Quote from: LauraMars on May 15, 2013, 09:32:42 PM
Armageddon may be the ONLY "creative haven" that I have ever encountered to have a blanket rule that an entire race adheres to a specific cultural trait 100% of the time.  Nowhere in the history of actual mankind or fictional mankind or fictional elvenkind or fictional anythingkind has 100% of a sentient race of individual minds adhered to a cultural trait 100% of the time, without deviation, change, or evolution.  It makes no sense at all for this to be the case.  This isn't a case of trying to humanize elves - this is a case of trying to logically understand why millions upon millions of elves would never once in the entire history of their race even consider exploring the silt sea, climbing the unclimbable, or doing anything besides running on the sand, being shady businessmen, and stealing.

As more and more players join us in Armageddon's rich and varied world, more players will be interested in playing elves, and more of these new players will be interested in creatively exploring the boundaries of the elven mindset with roleplay, and writing GREAT and EPIC stories about their characters.  In my opinion, there should be a better balance between allowing creativity, and sternly telling new players that they should be ashamed for thinking of new ways to play elves.  Elves may be irrational, but they aren't the Borg - they have individual brains in between those pointed ears, and I find it hard to believe that not one of those brains in all the history of elvenkind ever thought of deviating from this cultural expectation of not relying on anything but their own two legs (even though they also rely on: each other, their non-elven friends and clanmates to not kill them as they're regenerating stamina in the desert, mounts to carry their things, ropes and ladders to climb walls, and the wind to carry them if they're able to use magick.)

You are right, next we should get rid of the rule of riding mounts, cause I am sure one of them elves in the history rides them. Oh, and wagons and caravans next. Yep, we should completely eliminate the norm because one special somebody somewhere might do it and that makes it completely acceptable that all of them can do it at any given moment on the whim of the player. Your logic eats itself.

Or.... We can leave it as the acceptable norm, and maybe someone will be special enough to convince staff one day to let them special app it, and then that would be actually making not being normal something special instead of every bored city elf jumping on a skimmer for the hell of it.


And Gfair, elves can use mounts as pack animals. To load up goods, and then take them places, they just don't ride them.

It is quite annoying that city elves should be so gimped travel-wise. Running city streets with minimal penalties is fun until someone decides it looks suspicious. Not really worth the tradeoff in my opinion, unless you're the type who really IS up to something suspicious, then I imagine that's amazing.

I don't see why my city elf can't have a coded method of working up his outdoor walking skills. Maybe have a coded skill that can be developed very over time by walking around outside that reduces the amount of stamina lost. Then again, I don't know how it works for desert elves, which actually have cool things to do and tribes because herf, need a point of karma and to try a suck elf first.

City elves are amazing. You just have to get into the city mindset. outside bad, inside good. There is a huge world of opportunity already not being taken advantage of without looking for otherthings to do with them. Maybe this is why I am so advocated on this subject, I love city elves, probably my favorite thing to play. My only problem has always been getting stuck 'playing alone' because every other elf seems to join the byn or some such (particularly in allanak)

DELETED. So as not to... Reveal anything, whoops, please ignore the man behind the curtain...

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2013, 10:04:20 PM
That's no problem gfair because desert elves can run faster and further than a mount.

Mounts don't just extend the distance sentients can travel, they vastly increase the amount of weight that can be moved around the world. Goods are heavy, and the more goods the more weight. And yet up and down from pit to pit, Elves will see others hauling loads of lumber, rock, and other trade goods in quantities that no Elf could ever move around on his own two legs.  That also includes soldiers and weapons.  If the scouts don't see it, the tribal leaders will, the strategists and schemers.

QuoteYeah, I.. I'm going to have to throw in here that elves don't quite think in terms of species. There's me, my brothers, my parents, and everyone related to them, the people I trust. And there's 'them.' 'Them' can be anyone, and it certainly includes other elves. Add this to elves never, ever, at all seeing themselves as inferior to other beings, and, well.. Yeah, this isn't going to happen.

Looks like I have to throw back: You forgot the "us", the "we" (not the Royal we). That's what I was referring to by the species comment. "They" can load up an Inix with a haul of rock, lumber, weapons, goods, and move it across the known in one or two days. We cannot.

As for superiority - superiority goes out the window every time "they" kill "us".  Superiority leads to arrogance, which leads to under-estimation, which leads to misguided risk, which leads to a mistake realized either the easy way or the hard way. And in that moment, every Elf realizes - he is not as mighty as he thought. He is not invincible.

And notions of superiority need to be

Quote from: hatchets on May 15, 2013, 10:10:53 PM

Quote from: LauraMars on May 15, 2013, 09:32:42 PM
Armageddon may be the ONLY "creative haven" that I have ever encountered to have a blanket rule that an entire race adheres to a specific cultural trait 100% of the time.  Nowhere in the history of actual mankind or fictional mankind or fictional elvenkind or fictional anythingkind has 100% of a sentient race of individual minds adhered to a cultural trait 100% of the time, without deviation, change, or evolution.  It makes no sense at all for this to be the case.  This isn't a case of trying to humanize elves - this is a case of trying to logically understand why millions upon millions of elves would never once in the entire history of their race even consider exploring the silt sea, climbing the unclimbable, or doing anything besides running on the sand, being shady businessmen, and stealing.

As more and more players join us in Armageddon's rich and varied world, more players will be interested in playing elves, and more of these new players will be interested in creatively exploring the boundaries of the elven mindset with roleplay, and writing GREAT and EPIC stories about their characters.  In my opinion, there should be a better balance between allowing creativity, and sternly telling new players that they should be ashamed for thinking of new ways to play elves.  Elves may be irrational, but they aren't the Borg - they have individual brains in between those pointed ears, and I find it hard to believe that not one of those brains in all the history of elvenkind ever thought of deviating from this cultural expectation of not relying on anything but their own two legs (even though they also rely on: each other, their non-elven friends and clanmates to not kill them as they're regenerating stamina in the desert, mounts to carry their things, ropes and ladders to climb walls, and the wind to carry them if they're able to use magick.)

You are right, next we should get rid of the rule of riding mounts, cause I am sure one of them elves in the history rides them. Oh, and wagons and caravans next. Yep, we should completely eliminate the norm because one special somebody somewhere might do it and that makes it completely acceptable that all of them can do it at any given moment on the whim of the player. Your logic eats itself.

Or.... We can leave it as the acceptable norm, and maybe someone will be special enough to convince staff one day to let them special app it, and then that would be actually making not being normal something special instead of every bored city elf jumping on a skimmer for the hell of it.


And Gfair, elves can use mounts as pack animals. To load up goods, and then take them places, they just don't ride them.

If one elf in the history of elves has ridden a mount or piloted a skimmer, SOMEWHERE, that's all I wanted to know.  Thanks for confirming...

I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

Quote from: gfair on May 15, 2013, 10:29:46 PM

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2013, 10:04:20 PM
That's no problem gfair because desert elves can run faster and further than a mount.

Mounts don't just extend the distance sentients can travel, they vastly increase the amount of weight that can be moved around the world. Goods are heavy, and the more goods the more weight. And yet up and down from pit to pit, Elves will see others hauling loads of lumber, rock, and other trade goods in quantities that no Elf could ever move around on his own two legs.  That also includes soldiers and weapons.  If the scouts don't see it, the tribal leaders will, the strategists and schemers.

Gfair, you missed the rest of my post; elves can and do use pack animals to move things. They just lead them rather than ride them.

The following is a long post. The view point in it changes from beginning to end; the end conclusions are not the same as the opening ones. Despite this, I have left the thought process in, and not just given the end results.

Why?

I think that considering the full mentality, and seeing how it changes based on questions is important. Hopefully the full version of this post is more useful to you then if I'd just cut the beginning and presented the end conclusions.

---

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2013, 06:48:40 PM
Now wearing boots is fine because the elf can run without boots so the tool is just helping while a skimmer is not fine because the elf couldn't go on silt without the skimmer ... but ... the elf couldn't go flying without a whiran spell ... but ... that's ok ... because erm ... you can't steal the spell away from the elf ... but ... you can steal the boots ... ... erm ...

o.O

Okay, here's a table of what I'm trying to say:

Boots	Object	Makes walking easier	Yes
Rope	Object	Makes climbing easier	Yes
Climbing Gloves	Object	Makes climbing easier	Yes
Legs	Self-power	Make walking possible	Yes
Self-Cast Spell	Self-power	Make flying possible	Yes
Other-Cast Spell	Other's power	Make flying possible	No
Skimmer	Object	Make crossing silt possible	No
Mount	Other's power	Makes travel easier	No

If an elf can do it on its own, but an object makes it easier, then that is fine.

If an elf can do it on its own but the power of another makes it easier, then an elf will not do it.

If an elf cannot do it on it's own, but an object makes it possible, then an elf will not do it.

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2013, 09:30:27 PM
Using a rope to climb an otherwise unscalable cliff is not using your own power, but elves do it.

There does not appear to be to be any clean cut justification that can explain the inconsistencies away. That's fine. That's why I have the current position I posted above.

This does seem to be an arguable point, I'll admit.

However, I think an elf would probably see it as possible to climb without a rope, but something that makes it easier, which would then fit with the above explanation.

"But Taven!" You might say. "What if an elf could clearly tell that it would be totally impossible without a rope? What if the cliff was completely smooth and there was no way to do it under its own power?"

Then...that's why the point is arguable. If we say that the rope is already a commonly-accepted tool that is used, we open the door to wondering why the silt skimmer can't be that way too, or why magick boots can't be that way.

Maybe tools need a more complex treatment then relying on the power of others. Relying on the power of others is always a no, whereas relying on a tool depends on a number of things. Can an elf use it's legs with the tool? If the answer is no (such as with a silt skimmer or wagon), then it shouldn't be used. In the case of magic boots, they are powered by a source outside the elf, so the answer is no. The rope would be a yes, because the elf is still using its own power, and the rope does not have an external source.

That would perhaps modify the above table to read:

Boots	Object	Makes walking easier	Yes
Rope	Object that allows exertion under own power	Makes climbing possible	Yes
Climbing Gloves	Object that allows exertion under own power	Makes climbing easier	Yes
Legs	Self-power	Make walking possible	Yes
Self-Cast Spell	Self-power	Make flying possible	Yes
Other-Cast Spell	Other's power	Make flying possible	No
Skimmer	Object does not allow exertion of legs	Make crossing silt possible	No
Mount	Other's power	Makes travel easier	No

The above statements would then change to:

If an elf can do it on its own, but an object makes it easier AND an elf can use its legs, then that is fine.

If an elf can do it on its own but the power of another makes it easier or possible, then an elf will not do it.

If an elf cannot do it on it's own, but an object makes it possible AND an elf can use its legs, then that is fine.

If an elf cannot do it on it's own, but an object makes it possible AND an elf cannot use its legs, then an elf will not do it.



"But Taven!" You might say. "Using a rope to climb is all about the arms, it doesn't use legs at all! How is using a rope acceptable?"

Well, it's not something that depends on the legs. A skimmer is a form of movement that is replacing legs. Climbing is not, because it's not replacing the legs. In both cases, with or without a rope, you can use legs to steady yourself.

"But Taven!" You might say. "I wasn't going to say that, because I think climbing normally does rely on the legs. You need them to position yourself and find toe holds. This means that a rope is replacing an elf's leg power, and so climbing with a rope should be impossible!"

Well, it's something that also depends on the arms. Running relies solely on the legs, climbing also relies on the arms to pull yourself up. Thus, using a rope doesn't take away from what the elf is doing. Could you use this argument for a skimmer and a pole pushing the elf around? You could, but I don't think it would be the same. An elf can sometimes climb without a rope, and when they do, it uses both arms and legs. An elf can never move across the silt sea without the use of a skimmer, tool-wise.

I'm imagining elves sitting around a campfire having this discussion ... it's very funny.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on May 15, 2013, 10:30:55 PM
I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

Just to fuck with your chart some more Taven ... ok so ... if it's an object and it lets an elf do something they could not normally do on their own AND they cannot use their legs ... then they would not do it.

Fabulous. No more archery for elves.  :P

Quote from: Withered Ocotillo on May 15, 2013, 08:14:07 PMI'd like to thank Taven for taking the time to respond in detail to all my questions and not dismissing them as a joke.

Sure thing.

QuoteYou've given some of the most descriptive arguments on why an elf would distinguish tools differently from mounts. The argument seems to be that if a tool assists the natural abilities of the elf (climbing or running, for climbing gloves or running shoes), then it is considered acceptable. Using physical muscles are also a requirement for the tool to be considered acceptable.

So basically, if someone were to create silt-skis or silt-snowshoes that allowed someone to walk on silt under their own power, could we say that this would be acceptable? The magic hover-stone in the boots idea was dismissed as unacceptable for an elf to use, and is that because the elf doesn't need to move their legs while floating?

If an elf created a glider where they had to flap their arms to keep aloft, using their arm muscles to control their descent, would this also be acceptable? Or is it not acceptable because elves can't fly without assistance? Elves can't walk on silt without assistance, either. And elves can't climb some surfaces without a rope, either.

I am basing this on the second table of this post (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45522.msg752950.html#new):

Silt Skis	Object does allow exertion of legs	Makes silt-walking possible	Yes
Glider	Object does not allow exertion of legs	Makes flying possible	No

QuoteSo let's take three things an elf can't do naturally: 1) Climb a sheer vertical surface 2) Run across silt 3) Fly in the air And then we look at the tools that could make this possible (assuming these items all exist, for the sake of better understanding the elven mentality, and not to get them coded as items): 1) A rope 2) Silt-skis/silt-snowshoes 3) Arm-powered glider If #1 is ok but #2 and #3 are not, then I feel we need a better explanation as to why that is. If all three points are considered acceptable, then I think we're one step closer to understanding the elven mentality of why they won't "ride" transportation. If we take the silly, meant-as-a-joke comments by Nyr/MeTekillot about skimmer paddle boats (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45522.msg752661.html#msg752661) as truth, then the answer is that if elves have a leg-powered glider, it'd be fine. I'm not completely sold on that, since it still relies on a complex tool to make something otherwise impossible possible. At least in the case of a rope, it's a simple tool, and even if it is stolen, it's something that you could buy (or steal) again very easily. I feel like relying on a glider has the problem where an elf is using a machine too much. At what point is elven pride offended by the use of a tool? Unless the glider is a specialty item of the tribe, that may be the answer. Another consideration on elves and flying is if a non-magick elf would even want to fly. Maybe the key there is that if the elf can't get there by it's legs or own power, it wouldn't want to anyway. (Yes, I realize this will bring up the rope argument again).

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2013, 11:01:46 PM
Just to fuck with your chart some more Taven ... ok so ... if it's an object and it lets an elf do something they could not normally do on their own AND they cannot use their legs ... then they would not do it.

Fabulous. No more archery for elves.  :P

Oh, you!

You're just being silly now. Arrows have nothing to do with the movement of elves.

However, I would say the answer to "Would an elf be shot out of a cannon willingly?" (or attached to a ballista bolt that was shot) as a form of movement is NO.

Hope that helps!  :D

Apparently there's a .1% chance an elf would agree to be shot out of a cannon for the purposes of movement.

There is a 100% chance that this elf will never be a player character.

Quote from: LauraMars on May 15, 2013, 10:59:08 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on May 15, 2013, 10:30:55 PM
I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

When phrased this way it makes me think maybe we should put it in roleplay documentation that zalanthans are always 100% disgusted/fearful of magickers/breed/mutants. Then maybe people wouldn't fuck that up so much by trying to play the exception to the docs.

But magickers are so hot and smooth skinned :'(

Yes. It was tongue in cheek. However, the substance there being: why let the arrow cover the distance and do the killing for you when you have a perfectly good set of legs to carry you over there and do it yourself?

And while we're being silly ... Ok so as long as I pilot the skimmer with my feet ... we're a-ok yes? Glorious!  :D

Quote from: LauraMars on May 15, 2013, 10:59:08 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on May 15, 2013, 10:30:55 PM
I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

Two things:

First -

I understand what you're saying about the evolution of elven culture. There is a point where we have to agree that Armageddon is a game, and that the reason it is this way is because it's just that way. I can kind of understand staff's view on this though, because once you let one elf do something crazy, there's the risk that a lot of people are going to want to be special snowflakes. At that point in time, it would make the elven documentation redundant.

Second -

I like trying to think of the IC reasons for things. I think it's a worthy challenge to try and understand the whys. I think my arguments haven't been too farfetched so far (someone else besides me does understand them, right?). I also think that I don't have all of the answers; and I don't claim to. At the very least, the staff discussion thread (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45522.msg752665.html#msg752665) will have lots of things to think about. By discussing it, it makes people think more about it and the reason. And that, that is always a worthy goal.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 15, 2013, 11:09:29 PM

Quote from: LauraMars on May 15, 2013, 10:59:08 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on May 15, 2013, 10:30:55 PM
I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

When phrased this way it makes me think maybe we should put it in roleplay documentation that zalanthans are always 100% disgusted/fearful of magickers/breed/mutants. Then maybe people wouldn't fuck that up so much by trying to play the exception to the docs.

Maybe we could phrase it as 100% of player characters will be disgusted by and fearful of magickers, breeds, and mutants - and 99.9% of the Zalanthan population will be, too - but the roles playing the exceptions are reserved for the virtual population.

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2013, 11:12:12 PM
Yes. It was tongue in cheek. However, the substance there being: why let the arrow cover the distance and do the killing for you when you have a perfectly good set of legs to carry you over there and do it yourself?

I don't think the distance is the issue, killing the creature is. An elf already used its legs to locate and stalk said beastie, so it isn't a matter of proving that it needs to walk the extra room or two to kill it. In fact, it's going to walk there anyway when the thing is dead, to skin it. Thus, the arrow is not being relied on for movement. It's being relied on to kill something.

Quote from: Taven on May 15, 2013, 11:13:11 PM

Quote from: LauraMars on May 15, 2013, 10:59:08 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on May 15, 2013, 10:30:55 PM
I suspect elves riding mounts/wagons/skimmers is similar to Tuluki nobles sleeping with commoners: extremely unlikely IG, but one of those things players are wont to ignore so their character can be unique/dangerous.  If you just consider it an OOC rule (that overlaps 99.9% with IG trends) then maybe it'll be easier to accept?

It is, actually.  Because we won't be continuing to try and convince people to believe that the entire elven culture has never once in all its thousands of years of Zalanthan history deviated from the cultural/religious belief against riding, sailing, or whatever else.  This is a foolish and illogical argument.  99.9% of 1,000,000 is still 1,000 - that's a lot of elves that have defied cultural norms, and more than 1,000,000 elves have lived and died in the history of Zalanthas.

If we can admit that elves are allowed to defy their culture (betray their tribe, ride a beetle, sail the silt sea), then we can admit that they are a culture that is continuing to evolve in the background, as all cultures throughout all of history (real and imagined) will ALWAYS do without exception.  There will always be people in every culture that are willing to be regarded as pariahs and fools, worthy of mockery or worse, for their beliefs.

The staff have simply stated that players are not allowed to be a part of any kind of elven cultural evolution or be the change they want to see in this case.  No matter how much they might wish to, it is simply against the rules to consider it.  And this is a lot easier to swallow than expecting players to believe that 100% of elves will not think about riding or sailing or rolling on library ladders, or similarly trying to justify the conjectural shitstorm Musashi mentioned by contorting oneself through insane logical hoops.

Two things:

First -

I understand what you're saying about the evolution of elven culture. There is a point where we have to agree that Armageddon is a game, and that the reason it is this way is because it's just that way. I can kind of understand staff's view on this though, because once you let one elf do something crazy, there's the risk that a lot of people are going to want to be special snowflakes. At that point in time, it would make the elven documentation redundant.

Second -

I like trying to think of the IC reasons for things. I think it's a worthy challenge to try and understand the whys. I think my arguments haven't been too farfetched so far (someone else besides me does understand them, right?). I also think that I don't have all of the answers; and I don't claim to. At the very least, the staff discussion thread (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45522.msg752665.html#msg752665) will have lots of things to think about. By discussing it, it makes people think more about it and the reason. And that, that is always a worthy goal.

I get your arguments, but I think they are needlessly complicated. To me it was always just that they have to travel under their own muscle power. That means, ropes and other tools are fine because they are still moving themselves through some internal reservoir of energy. Silt skimmers are not being powered by elven leg-power and are therefore taboo. (They use wind and stuff right?) No external power can be used to move them. Easy enough, right?

I think Flintstone cars are the obvious solution to elven mobility problems.  ;)

Ooops, realized I didn't account for magic. Then let me edit that...

Quote from: racurtne on May 15, 2013, 11:25:54 PMI get your arguments, but I think they are needlessly complicated. To me it was always just that they have to travel under their own muscle power. That means, ropes and other tools are fine because they are still moving themselves through some internal reservoir of energy. Silt skimmers are not being powered by elven leg-power and are therefore taboo. (They use wind and stuff right?) No external power can be used to move them. Easy enough, right?

I think Flintstone cars are the obvious solution to elven mobility problems.  ;)

I agree with what you're saying, really. My arguments are complicated (maybe even needlessly so).

The biggest complication seems to arise with the rope argument, since (as I hypothesized in my long-ass post) you could argue that a rope is about arms, not about legs. A silt skimmer (with the silt pole) is also about arms (until you use the sails, anyway, but even then you could argue that it's elf arms or muscles adjusting it).

At least I'm having fun?  :D

Sailing a boat is a massively physical affair on the part of the sailor. Boats didn't get comfortable until engines came along.

And yeah I don't think either Taven or I are taking the "debate" seriously. Just sharing in a mutual laugh.

Yeah. I didn't take it very seriously either.  ;) See Flintstone car comment.

He asked if people understood his arguments. I said yes.  ???

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2013, 11:34:29 PM
Sailing a boat is a massively physical affair on the part of the sailor. Boats didn't get comfortable until engines came along.

I am quite aware of how sailing boats is physical....I wouldn't characterize it as moving under your own power though.

I'm a student of History, and very well informed on these things.  :-*

Also, boats became even less comfortable with engines at first. Coal powered ships were hell.

What does the elven roleplay documentation say about why elves don't ride mounts/wagons?  Lets take a look:

Quote from: Elven Rolepay
Elves and Mounts: (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay)

The mixture of pride, nomadic tendencies, and the natural ability to run makes all elves ridicule the riding of mounts. To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

It is sometimes said that most elves forgive the riding of mounts by other races, but this isn't entirely true. While they realize that it is customary for some other races to ride mounts, they still perceive it as a sign of weakness. It usually doesn't change much, however, as the pride and tribal nature of elves makes them think of others as weak to begin with. This aversion to beasts of burden does not extend to pack animals. Most elves have always, and always will rely upon all manner of beasts to carry things around. Similarly, there is no aversion to using beasts as a source of food, as work animals, or in just about any other function other than riding.

This suggests that the reason elves don't ride is that riding makes one weak (when they could be running), or even just appear to be weak (because they aren't running).  Is it weak to ride in on a silt skimmer?  Especially when there is no running alternative method of travelling the silt sea?  I don't think riding a skimmer would be shameful for an elf, or make them look weak.  I think it'd be more realistic for an elf to brag about facing the inherent dangers of sailing the silt sea.

Clearly, we need to make a foot-powered cannon. Alternatively, a magick powered cannon (provided that the elf casts all the spells themselves, of course).

This cannon would have no practical application other then shooting elves places (not for killing purposes, like an arrow, but strictly for movement purposes).

;D

Quote from: Taven on May 15, 2013, 11:51:58 PM
Clearly, we need to make a foot-powered cannon. Alternatively, a magick powered cannon (provided that the elf casts all the spells themselves, of course).

This cannon would have no practical application other then shooting elves places (not for killing purposes, like an arrow, but strictly for movement purposes).

;D

Big conveyor belts with tens of elves running to wind rope up to launch their companions.  :D

Quote from: Molten Heart on May 15, 2013, 11:50:59 PMThis suggests that the reason elves don't ride is that riding makes one weak (when they could be running), or even just appear to be weak (because they aren't running).  Is it weak to ride in on a silt skimmer?  Especially when there is no running alternative method of travelling the silt sea?  I don't think riding a skimmer would be shameful for an elf, or make them look weak.  I think it'd be more realistic for an elf to brag about facing the inherent dangers of sailing the silt sea.

It's saying that relying on a power other then your own is weak.

Mounts take effort, but the power of propulsion is coming from the mount, not from the elf.

Skimmers take effort, but the power of propulsion is coming from the wind, not from the elf.

Magickal movement, if the elf is using their own magicks, the power is coming from the elf's internal ability to use magick.

Magickal movement, if the elf is not using their own magicks, the power is coming from the other magicker or magick source, not the elf.

Quote from: racurtne on May 15, 2013, 11:55:10 PM

Quote from: Taven on May 15, 2013, 11:51:58 PM
Clearly, we need to make a foot-powered cannon. Alternatively, a magick powered cannon (provided that the elf casts all the spells themselves, of course).

This cannon would have no practical application other then shooting elves places (not for killing purposes, like an arrow, but strictly for movement purposes).

;D

Big conveyor belts with tens of elves running to wind rope up to launch their companions.  :D

Dude, not okay. I'm not going to rely on other elves to move me, are you crazy?! This would be a sign of weakness.

The cannon has a mechanism which stores energy from my foot pedaling. I then enter the cannon, and flick a switch, which uses the stored energy to launch me into the sky!

Quote from: Taven on May 15, 2013, 11:58:51 PM

Quote from: racurtne on May 15, 2013, 11:55:10 PM

Quote from: Taven on May 15, 2013, 11:51:58 PM
Clearly, we need to make a foot-powered cannon. Alternatively, a magick powered cannon (provided that the elf casts all the spells themselves, of course).

This cannon would have no practical application other then shooting elves places (not for killing purposes, like an arrow, but strictly for movement purposes).

;D

Big conveyor belts with tens of elves running to wind rope up to launch their companions.  :D

Dude, not okay. I'm not going to rely on other elves to move me, are you crazy?! This would be a sign of weakness.

The cannon has a mechanism which stores energy from my foot pedaling. I then enter the cannon, and flick a switch, which uses the stored energy to launch me into the sky!

Gah, you're right. Such a terrible oversight on my part. We're in agreement on Flintstone cars though, right? I mean, they can sit -while- they run.

Quote from: racurtne on May 16, 2013, 12:01:01 AM
Gah, you're right. Such a terrible oversight on my part. We're in agreement on Flintstone cars though, right? I mean, they can sit -while- they run.

If we can have a special cannon they use to shoot them into the air for movement purposes, we can totally have a flintstone car. Because who wants to stand when running, really?

We still need to rely on mounts to carry our shit though. Because sticking it in the car would mean we'd have to rely on our legs to carry it, and we only need to carry ourselves, not our stuff.

Did I seriously read a post back there that said that being an asshole should be enforced with the same spirit that elves not riding on shit is? Because I think that's fucked. Having been through some shit that bent and broke my perception of others, and my perception of myself in twisted and horrible ways that were extremely difficult to recover from (despite now I have a mental illness to deal with which isn't making anything any easier), I'd rather not treat even virtual characters this way unless I think the characters deserve it. I do have a finite range of characters I am willing to play, maybe not with all the same traits that everyone else prefers to play theirs with, maybe not completely in line with what SHOULD be played.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the game? I thought the point was to have a good time in an imaginary environment, even while your character gets horribly mauled by some terrible thing and drama happens and all that stuff. Fine, cool, bad shit happens, I don't want to be forced to be a fountain of bad shit though because, heh, rules.

Quote from: Fujikoma on May 16, 2013, 12:11:20 AM
Did I seriously read a post back there that said that being an asshole should be enforced with the same spirit that elves not riding on shit is? Because I think that's fucked. Having been through some shit that bent and broke my perception of others, and my perception of myself in twisted and horrible ways that were extremely difficult to recover from (despite now I have a mental illness to deal with which isn't making anything any easier), I'd rather not treat even virtual characters this way unless I think the characters deserve it. I do have a finite range of characters I am willing to play, maybe not with all the same traits that everyone else prefers to play theirs with, maybe not completely in line with what SHOULD be played.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the game? I thought the point was to have a good time in an imaginary environment, even while your character gets horribly mauled by some terrible thing and drama happens and all that stuff. Fine, cool, bad shit happens, I don't want to be forced to be a fountain of bad shit though because, heh, rules.

I assume you are talking about the behavior of people toward magickers, breeds, and other undesirables.

I think the posts in this thread have been focused on looking at the vNPC side of things, and if all vNPC elves behave the same way that elves do. There was some discussion about why elf behavior is required to be a certain way, and why other behavior is allowed to be more flexible. There was one post that maybe hating breeds/magickers should be required.

You can make your own thread which talks about the complexities of PCs obeying/bending the documentation for how they behave. If it's really important to you, I recommend doing so!

Quote from: Fujikoma on May 16, 2013, 12:11:20 AM
Did I seriously read a post back there that said that being an asshole should be enforced with the same spirit that elves not riding on shit is? Because I think that's fucked. Having been through some shit that bent and broke my perception of others, and my perception of myself in twisted and horrible ways that were extremely difficult to recover from (despite now I have a mental illness to deal with which isn't making anything any easier), I'd rather not treat even virtual characters this way unless I think the characters deserve it. I do have a finite range of characters I am willing to play, maybe not with all the same traits that everyone else prefers to play theirs with, maybe not completely in line with what SHOULD be played.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the game? I thought the point was to have a good time in an imaginary environment, even while your character gets horribly mauled by some terrible thing and drama happens and all that stuff. Fine, cool, bad shit happens, I don't want to be forced to be a fountain of bad shit though because, heh, rules.

It was a tongue in cheek suggestion. I was implying that forcing people not to play the exception (to anything ever) by making it an unbreakable rule was a bit silly in a game where basically every character makes an exception to the docs at some point or another.  Sorry I didn't make that more clear, if mine was the post to which you're referring.

You dudes think about this too much.  ;D

If you really want to play an elf who rides, special app it and see if the admins will allow it. Otherwise, you are on of the 99.9% of elves who don't ride.

Or you're a breed who looks like and elf. :P

Yeah, even if staff approve your special app everyone will just think you're a half elf that looks like an elf anyway.

 leg powered paddle skimmers. problem solved.

No man, you see if you consult Taven's chart you'll see that, after we tweak it one more time and make it yet more needlessly complicated, that when an elf is using a tool in order to do something they couldn't normally do but they are using their legs to do it with ... ... In silt ... Well that adds a -5 modifier to their comprehension roll and knocks the result back down into the not allowed category.

Ad hoc reasoning is fun  :D

Quote from: musashi on May 21, 2013, 04:57:48 PM
No man, you see if you consult Taven's chart you'll see that, after we tweak it one more time and make it yet more needlessly complicated, that when an elf is using a tool in order to do something they couldn't normally do but they are using their legs to do it with ... ... In silt ... Well that adds a -5 modifier to their comprehension roll and knocks the result back down into the not allowed category.

Ad hoc reasoning is fun  :D

What you just said made me question my own intelligence

Story of my life man.

Playing an elf sounds like an excessively complicated pain in the ass.

Quote from: Vwest on May 23, 2013, 03:11:13 AM
Playing an elf sounds like an excessively complicated pain in the ass.

Much like elves themselves?  :D

Joking.  :)

I know I'm a little late to the party, but it's helpful to have some perspective on how this silliness started:

In Dark Sun, elves prefer to run. They can and do ride mounts. Tribes own wagons. But elves have a strong bias for getting around on their own two feet.

In Arm: the Very Early Years, elves prefer to run. But codewise, it's better to ride a mount and keep your stamina high. So the immortals of the day said, "OK, RP is going to be enforced now. You better have a damn good reason for riding if you are riding as an elf."

Then later, after it became apparent there was too much weasel room, the statement changed to, "OK, now RP is REALLY doing to be enforced. No PC elves can ride a mount, ever."  It's been that way for more than a decade. Probably edging close to two decades, maybe.

Somewhere along the path, the everyone lost sight of why the decision was made. It instead became the common interpretation that elves are utterly insane. And here we are again, trying to justify the unjustifiable.

More pertinent to the debate:

Elves can't ride mounts because they have a coded advantage to desert travel (or at least d-elves do).  Being able to to ride a mount gives them too much of an advantage, which was occasionally abused in the Early Days of Yore.

Elves can use climbing gear and rope because they have no coded racial super power for climbing. (...that I'm aware of.)

Elves can't use silt skimmers because they can't ride mounts, even though they have no coded racial super power for otherwise traversing the Sea.

In my earlier days I was a city elf working for a Mul silt skimmer captain raider type. Being on a skimmer was scary but I always assumed that because I couldn't swim through the silt sea it was fine.

Edit to add: Yarrr!

I know I'm late to the party, but I have two options to offer here :

One, piloting a skimmer ain't hard for a player, but we all know that adjusting sails and occasionally rowing, perhaps, would be a good deal of work.  In that sense, elves would be moving under their own power.

However, all skimmers are made by humans.  Elves would not want to be dependent on human ingenuity.  Or another tribe's ingenuity.

Quote from: Dalmeth on May 27, 2013, 05:48:46 PM
I know I'm late to the party, but I have two options to offer here :

One, piloting a skimmer ain't hard for a player, but we all know that adjusting sails and occasionally rowing, perhaps, would be a good deal of work.  In that sense, elves would be moving under their own power.

However, all skimmers are made by humans.  Elves would not want to be dependent on human ingenuity.  Or another tribe's ingenuity.

And thus all elf newbs must go without clothes, until their tribe makes some for them. Those obsidian pieces were not made by elven hands. Why would I steal that when it wasn't made by elves? No way I'm eating that, I didn't kill it with my bare hands, nor was I able to pry the meat off the corpse. In fact, this corpse was not elven make, I should only eat other elves.

Sorry, latter line of reasoning doesn't work for me. But the point about skimmers being a lot of work does.

It amazes me that any creature with a mindset so rigid as an elf's ever managed to survive in a world like Zalanthas. The entire race is anathema to common sense.

They're worse than dwarves, even; at least a dwarf understands that his focus don't mean shit if he dies before he completes it.

Quote from: Mood on June 02, 2013, 05:56:16 PM
It amazes me that any creature with a mindset so rigid as an elf's ever managed to survive in a world like Zalanthas. The entire race is anathema to common sense.

They're worse than dwarves, even; at least a dwarf understands that his focus don't mean shit if he dies before he completes it.

Some people IRL would prefer to die rather than eat certain/any animals.

No, this is like, I would rather die than eat. Which will inevitably happen.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 02, 2013, 06:06:32 PM

Quote from: Mood on June 02, 2013, 05:56:16 PM
It amazes me that any creature with a mindset so rigid as an elf's ever managed to survive in a world like Zalanthas. The entire race is anathema to common sense.

They're worse than dwarves, even; at least a dwarf understands that his focus don't mean shit if he dies before he completes it.

Some people IRL would prefer to die rather than eat certain/any animals.

Nope. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh)

Islam has a similar concept IIRC, and I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find a vegan who wouldn't murder and devour a delicious animal if on the brink of starvation.

A very small portion of the population might chose to die, but that is what we call an outlier.

Now, let us consider a similar situation: an elf has been running from a mek on the Salt Flats all day. He's out of water, exhausted, and he just simply can't walk anymore. Turns out, fate is a fickle bitch with a sense of humor, and it is at this time that our elven hero stumbles upon the Last of the Kanks, even as the mek closes in on him.

As things stand, the elf that says "fuck this shit, I want to live" is the outlier; this is a problem, and I fail to see how a race with survival instincts that bad could possibly survive and thrive as they have in a world that is even harsher than the one we come from.

Quote from: Mood on June 02, 2013, 06:15:18 PM
As things stand, the elf that says "fuck this shit, I want to live" is the outlier; this is a problem, and I fail to see how a race with survival instincts that bad could possibly survive and thrive as they have in a world that is even harsher than the one we come from.

I have to think the elf would realize that they can't ride that mount, anyway, and even if they managed to get a little ways, actually dying on top of a mount rather than on your feet would be infinitely horrible.  If, for some reason, the elf could get on that mount, and get away in time, I think they'd definitely consider it.  And if they survive, feel immense shame for the rest of their days.

Hyperbole much?  I seriously doubt that unwillingness to ride a mount is a significant cause of death among the elvish population.


Also, staying off silt skimmers is actually a pretty good survival instinct.

In that case, staying out of the Byn is also a survival instinct. Elves actually have the agility to be part of a rocking skimmer crew.