Quote from: Riev on April 22, 2013, 04:01:12 PM
Tuluk is North Korea, with a wicked awesome spy system (I mean, they HAVE to have one, right? Without magick or anything...)
It is very hard to make it "dirty" and "gritty" there, when anywhere you walk, a Noble or Templar could walk who would find "that single piece of trash" to be "against what the Glorious Leader" would like to see. If you try to kill or mug someone, you're an outcast, because killing is wrong, in the eyes of the Glorious Leader. If you're brawling in the Tooth, its frowned upon, because Tulukis would -never- resort to punching someone out of anger. Its not like the Glorious Leader had to spill a thousand skins of blood just to initially take the Gol Krathu region for himself. He simply wanted it to be, and so it was.
I think there's a tad too much social stigma against being "rough and tumble" in Tuluk, with people calling anything gritty or terse "Southern and Barbaric". I'm not saying get RID of it, and maybe its just because the Sanctuary is the central and most popular tavern, but I've actually SEEN people get in a brawl in the Tooth, and the Legions show up to reprimand people and/or haul them away. So... NUKE IT ALL ;)
Um ... I've seen legion soldiers
brawling each other in the Tooth ... and the warrens have very colorful echoes to let you know just how gritty and dirty they are.
The way I see it, in Allanak ... Every quarter of the city commoners have access to is a dirty corpse strewn midden heap mess. But behind the high gated walls of the elite, things are beautiful and pristine.
In Tuluk, some Qynar are dirty. Some Qynar are clean, as befits the economic status of the area. The warrens and the red sun commons will show you some grit and dirty sweaty laborer s running around. The noble's quarter and the bardic circle will not, and while commoners can go in those places, they're expected to behave.
Tuluk might not have corpse piles because its a nicer, friendlier place than Allanak ... or it might not have corpse piles because it has furnaces. ;)
Honestly, I think the lion's share of "Tuluk is too polite and clean" sentiment is just a reflection of the fact that the Sanctuary is Tuluk's spawn location and thus defacto main tavern, while in Allanak, it's the Gaj.
The "main PC tavern" in Tuluk is an upper class one. *shrug* But if you can grab a few buddies and go populate a different tavern in the city, your gritty grit grit will not be out of place at all.
Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.
Tuluk is massive compared to Allanak. Seriously. I get lost any time I try to play in that place.
The Sanctuary is a clean tavern but I wouldn't call it upper-class. People make a mess of it and it constantly gets cleaned up, according to room echoes. It's located near the wagonyard and stables and the faint scent of animal dung probably wafts in every time a light breeze passes the door. The main similarity between the Sanctuary and the Gaj besides the fact that new characters spawn there is probably that they are on the main roads into the city, and thus, welcome all comers. It's just that the Sanctuary expects people to be well-behaved and as clean as they can afford to be, while anything goes in the Gaj.
I agree with you about how the parts of Tuluk are obviously different. I think people who complain about the lack of grit in Tuluk tend to know this. It's not really hard to play a gritty character in Tuluk, and you basically have to impose the same limits on yourself as if you were playing the same type of character in Allanak, but it is hard to find like-minded people because middle- and upper-class society in Tuluk has a lot of documentation and support for it, so most people want to play on that side of things. I do appreciate those who do play lower-class people in Tuluk though.
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 22, 2013, 07:54:45 PM
Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.
To my knowledge there are five taverns in the Ivory city.
To my knowledge there are four taverns in the black city, we blew the fifth one up.
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 08:13:33 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 22, 2013, 07:54:45 PM
Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.
To my knowledge there are five taverns in the Ivory city.
To my knowledge there are four taverns in the black city, we blew the fifth one up.
Really? You're counting the 'Rinth?
I imagine the warrens in Tuluk being more like the Labyrinth in Allanak, only less extreme. They'd have crime, small time gangs.
Quote from: MeTekillot on April 22, 2013, 08:03:34 PM
Tuluk is massive compared to Allanak. Seriously. I get lost any time I try to play in that place.
I agree with this, judging by the outside walls, it's roughly three times larger than Old Tuluk was. As a result, I'm guessing it isn't as densely populated, but more spread out, not just the persistent city (which it obviously is) but also the virtual city.
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 08:13:33 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 22, 2013, 07:54:45 PM
Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.
To my knowledge there are five taverns in the Ivory city.
To my knowledge there are four taverns in the black city, we blew the fifth one up.
There are also three stables in Tuluk, they should scrap the one in Freil's and make one across from the Tooth, imo.
Yes. I was counting the 'rinth.
# of Rooms does not = Relative size, for a lot of areas of the game.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 22, 2013, 08:16:08 PM
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 08:13:33 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 22, 2013, 07:54:45 PM
Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.
To my knowledge there are five taverns in the Ivory city.
To my knowledge there are four taverns in the black city, we blew the fifth one up.
Really? You're counting the 'Rinth?
Gaj, Reds, Silver Ginka, Arboretum. (per the map, so public info)
We blew one up. I think one burned down too. Actually, make that two burned down, if you count the Rinth.
Don't forget the Azure Dragon.
I just don't understand. Just because Tuluk isn't a carbon copy of Allanak, it is horrible? It's a big world, with multiple cities, some places are different than others. Change it IC if someone wants, that is the biggest asset this game has. Like I said to someone earlier today, "Be the change you wish to see".
Honestly I enjoy seeing the patterns and events that occur organically inside a game, a hazard of one too many sociology classes I suppose. :P
Cheers,
IronMonk
Wow, so Allanak had even
more taverns than I thought :o
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 22, 2013, 07:54:45 PM
Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.
Right back at ya buddy!
Anyway, I wanted to reply to cutthroat because I thought his post was well thought out, and I agree with some of it, disagree with some of it.
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 22, 2013, 08:12:01 PM
The Sanctuary is a clean tavern but I wouldn't call it upper-class. People make a mess of it and it constantly gets cleaned up, according to room echoes. It's located near the wagonyard and stables and the faint scent of animal dung probably wafts in every time a light breeze passes the door. The main similarity between the Sanctuary and the Gaj besides the fact that new characters spawn there is probably that they are on the main roads into the city, and thus, welcome all comers. It's just that the Sanctuary expects people to be well-behaved and as clean as they can afford to be, while anything goes in the Gaj.
I agree with you about how the parts of Tuluk are obviously different. I think people who complain about the lack of grit in Tuluk tend to know this. It's not really hard to play a gritty character in Tuluk, and you basically have to impose the same limits on yourself as if you were playing the same type of character in Allanak, but it is hard to find like-minded people because middle- and upper-class society in Tuluk has a lot of documentation and support for it, so most people want to play on that side of things. I do appreciate those who do play lower-class people in Tuluk though.
I would call the Sanctuary as upper-class a tavern as Tuluk has to offer. Yes, unlike the Arboretum in Allanak, the Sanctuary is more open to the common caste, but I challenge you to name another tavern in Tuluk ritzier than the Sanctuary. It's the tavern the elite go to, and the fact that they brush elbows with commoners while there isn't an oversight or an incidental thing, its quite a deliberate cultural thing that dates back to the occupation and liberation of Tuluk from Allanaki control, but you knew that. I only mention for the sake of any newbies reading along.
Where as by comparison, I challenge you to name another tavern in Allanak shittier than the Gaj. It's the very bottom of the barrel, and we routinely rail on the GDB against anyone not dressed like a grebber hanging out in there. We don't need to look far to find people complaining about aides in silks hanging out in the Gaj ninja dodging all the vomit and fecal matter floating around in the air there, or bemoaning templar/noble PC's frequenting the place. I would say this is not an oversight or incidental thing either, its also quite a deliberate cultural thing. In Allanak, the city elite as so far above the common man's head that it's as if they live in another world. In Tuluk, it's not. They're more accessible. But again, I know you knew that already.
I agree with almost all of what you wrote there, except the last bit. I don't think it's a lack of documentation on the lower end that makes playing a rough and tumble in Tuluk difficult. I think it's almost entirely a function of the main tavern. PC's live in a microcosm. Make the Tembo Tooth the spawning point for Tuluk and give it a bit for people to shift over and start hanging out there more ... and we'd have more a rough and tumble feel in Tuluk. Make the Arboretum or the Silver Ginka the spawn point in Allanak and in time, you'll have a lot more people working for the noble houses wearing livery and collectively sneering at the vNPC commoners.
But the main tavern in Tuluk is the Sanctuary for a good reason, just like there's a good reason the Gaj is the main hang out in Allanak. They both set the respective mood for their city states.
So if you play in Tuluk, yes ... there will be more socialization with nobles going on, and you'll have to be on your best behavior when you do so, saving the grit for the warrens ... when you're sure there's no upper crust about to over hear you. Therefore ... gritty poor filthy commoner roles will be slightly more isolated than more prosperous ones.
And if you play in Allanak ... the reverse is true. You'll very rarely see the elite, most of the people are gritty, and those who play the upper crust of Allanak are therefore slightly more isolated than their poorer, more desperate counter parts.
----------
Given all that ... I do wish that the Byn could maintain a unit in the north, I think the Byn brings a certain level of socically acceptable scum to the environment and they would help make the dirty peasants feel more at home in Tuluk :)
But ... well ... we probably just don't have the playerbase size to support a split clan like that. *sigh*
but we would if we NUKED A CITY C'MON PEOPLE.
I have nothing else remotely constructive to add to this thread because I'm basically nodding along with what Malken and Cutthroat are saying.
There are six taverns in Tuluk.
Seven if you count the Ghaati.
There are more in Allanak if you also count the areas almost no PC's have access to as well.
Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.
One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.
I didn't mean to turn this thread into a tavern-dick-waving argument. My bad.
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 07:45:06 PM
Um ... I've seen legion soldiers brawling each other in the Tooth ... and the warrens have very colorful echoes to let you know just how gritty and dirty they are.
Unfortunately, for every anecdotal story about Legionnaires brawling in the Tooth, there's stories like the time my PC's entire unit was thrown out of the Tooth for being Bynners and being too dirty and grungy.
I think it's something that comes and goes in waves and is entirely dependent on who's in charge in Tuluk's clans at the time, but I've definitely felt as a player that there's a lot more pressure to be "nice" and "socially acceptable" even if you are playing a PC who would never enter the sanctuary or interact with high society.
I think Cutty hit the nail on the head:
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 22, 2013, 08:12:01 PM
It's not really hard to play a gritty character in Tuluk, and you basically have to impose the same limits on yourself as if you were playing the same type of character in Allanak, but it is hard to find like-minded people because middle- and upper-class society in Tuluk has a lot of documentation and support for it, so most people want to play on that side of things. I do appreciate those who do play lower-class people in Tuluk though.
I haven't ever had difficulty playing a "gritty" character in Tuluk, but I did find that every single one of my PCs was seen as some sort of charity case and encouraged to clean up and act better and "make something of themselves" or told that nobody would "take them seriously."
I never felt like there wasn't a niche for my gritty, dusty hunter/Bynner types... it's just that others in the city kept trying to drag my PCs out of that niche kicking and screaming.
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 22, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.
One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.
Which one? Now I'm curious. Ah wait, I think I know the one you mean. Forgot about the arena. ::) I dunno if I'd call it more swank though, its room description is not bedecked in artwork and velvet. It has lots of rough and tumble room echos in it as well given its local so close to a combat area.
To Fathi: I largely agree with what cutthroat was saying as well. I just don't think it has to do with documentation or a lack thereof. I think it has to do with what level in the social strata most player characters are at.
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 22, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.
One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.
Which one? Now I'm curious.
Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8 or so, in 'nak. LOL
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 22, 2013, 10:24:41 PM
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 22, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.
One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.
Which one? Now I'm curious.
Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8 or 9 total, in 'nak. LOL
We were talking about Tuluki taverns :P
I understand your disagreements musashi. I think you better explained what I was trying to get at. Being gritty in Tuluk is possible, but also potentially isolating since not a lot of people are doing it. Part of the problem might be that there are a lot of roles to fill in Tuluk, so things can feel a bit lopsided when some of those roles are empty. People gravitate to the roles where they can be involved in a majority of the plotting. So after the Houses, bards, and templars are all filled up (or even when they're not), there's a tiny amount of PCs being all gritty and keeping mostly to themselves.
Fortunately, with the increased number of players in the game lately, there might be a chance some of this will resolve on its own.
Quote from: Fathi on April 22, 2013, 10:14:45 PM
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 07:45:06 PM
Um ... I've seen legion soldiers brawling each other in the Tooth ... and the warrens have very colorful echoes to let you know just how gritty and dirty they are.
Unfortunately, for every anecdotal story about Legionnaires brawling in the Tooth, there's stories like the time my PC's entire unit was thrown out of the Tooth for being Bynners and being too dirty and grungy.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. You serious?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 22, 2013, 10:24:41 PM
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 22, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.
One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.
Which one? Now I'm curious.
Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8 or so, in 'nak. LOL
Azure dragon isn't a Tuluki bar. Shit, try naming any bar in Tuluk after a dragon. Good luck.
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 10:25:27 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 22, 2013, 10:24:41 PM
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 22, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.
One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.
Which one? Now I'm curious.
Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8 or 9 total, in 'nak. LOL
We were talking about Tuluki taverns :P
I thought he was saying there's one tavern more classy than the sanctuary in allanak.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 22, 2013, 10:24:41 PM
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 22, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.
One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.
Which one? Now I'm curious.
Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8 or so, in 'nak. LOL
Gladiator and the Gaj
Red's Retreat
Azure Dragon
Silver Ginka
Arboretum (since I'm counting the Tuluki one that isn't publicly accessible)
I dunno where you're getting all the others. The Rinth hardly counts. It's basically its own thing.
I think part of the reason Tuluk has such a "clean" appearance is because it lacks any distinct seedier elements. The warrens are shitty, but nobody there seems to be
suffering like in the south.
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 22, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.
One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.
Which one? Now I'm curious.
As it's not listed on the map or in the help files at all, nor from a cursory search of the gdb, I'm not sure if I should out and name it - erring on the side of caution - - I don't see anyone calling the Labyrinth bar by name... If someone else wants to name it, that's their business. But it's very close to the noble quarter, and the room echos are very much a step above the bottle-thieving breeds of the Sanctuary. I think it has some of the best tavern echos, actually.
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 22, 2013, 10:29:44 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 22, 2013, 10:24:41 PM
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 22, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.
One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.
Which one? Now I'm curious.
Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8 or so, in 'nak. LOL
Gladiator and the Gaj
Red's Retreat
Azure Dragon
Silver Ginka
Arboretum (since I'm counting the Tuluki one that isn't publicly accessible)
I dunno where you're getting all the others. The Rinth hardly counts. It's basically its own thing.
I think part of the reason Tuluk has such a "clean" appearance is because it lacks any distinct seedier elements. The warrens are shitty, but nobody there seems to be suffering like in the south.
There are very likely more locked away behind gated areas most 'nakki PC's can't enter, I would imagine that's where the extra ones are coming from, FWIW.
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 22, 2013, 10:25:48 PM
I understand your disagreements musashi. I think you better explained what I was trying to get at. Being gritty in Tuluk is possible, but also potentially isolating since not a lot of people are doing it. Part of the problem might be that there are a lot of roles to fill in Tuluk, so things can feel a bit lopsided when some of those roles are empty. People gravitate to the roles where they can be involved in a majority of the plotting. So after the Houses, bards, and templars are all filled up (or even when they're not), there's a tiny amount of PCs being all gritty and keeping mostly to themselves.
Fortunately, with the increased number of players in the game lately, there might be a chance some of this will resolve on its own.
I agree.
I imagine this is the same problem in reverse down in Allanak.
But I think it's more a feature than a bug. The "PC spotlight" if you will ... shines on grubby desperate folk in Allanak, and it shines on prosperous politically inclined folk in Tuluk. That's where the PC bubble of the two cities are, respectively.
Doesn't mean desperate situations don't exist in Tuluk any more than it means prosperous political situations don't exist in Allanak, but they remain largely virtual in light of a small player base.
So ... ... if we NUKED ALL OF ALLANAK ... ... we could have both in one city, AND no filthy mages! :D
Grumble mumble tree-hugging easy-mode blah blah :D
Anyway, to switch to my serious face now, I think things are pretty great right now. Don't fix what isn't broke.
TULUK SUCKS!
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 09:49:28 PM
Given all that ... I do wish that the Byn could maintain a unit in the north, I think the Byn brings a certain level of socically acceptable scum to the environment and they would help make the dirty peasants feel more at home in Tuluk :)
But ... well ... we probably just don't have the playerbase size to support a split clan like that. *sigh*
Nearest I can tell, and its probably wildly out of proportion, there are many reasons Tuluk has a hard time supporting the Byn.
1. The majority of contracts aren't escorts, but "hired hunter" style contracts. Get us mantis shells, or a silt horror shell, etc. Tuluk has plenty of hunters.
2. The second highest majority IS escorts, but players/PCs only think the path is dangerous -after- they die to a gith spawn.
3. Every time the Byn come up to Tuluk, there seems to be trouble. Someone tries to steal, or kill an NPC, or mouths off to a noble, or a myriad of other things. This has caused a lot of the city to believe that "The Byn is just a bunch of barbaric southerners and we don't have any use for them."
On the whole, though I believe what Cutthroat said is highly accurate. You CAN make a gritty character in Tuluk, but a lot of the social interaction is with Nobility, in the Sanctuary. It can be a little isolating.
Right Reiv, but I'm thinking the reason the Byn always causes trouble when they come up north is precisely because ... they're coming up from the south. It's not that they're bynner thus they stir up a shit storm and everyone hates them ... it's that they're southerners.
If there were northern born inked bynners running around I think it would be more acceptable to the northern citizens to use them for this and that. But as it stands, even though they aren't a geographically aligned faction, and they have a northern compound and have had it for ages ... northern pcs treat the byn like a souther militia clan and don't want anything to do with them. Because ever PC bynner they meet lives in, and was likely born in, Allanak.
But again, I just don't think we have the numbers to split the clan like that so I think I understand why the byn stays south, from an ooc perspective.
Quote from: musashi on April 22, 2013, 10:37:36 PM
So ... ... if we NUKED ALL OF ALLANAK ... ... we could have both in one city, AND no filthy mages! :D
It is Allanak's turn to get nuked (excluding Luir's.)
Quote from: Fathi on April 22, 2013, 10:14:45 PM
I haven't ever had difficulty playing a "gritty" character in Tuluk, but I did find that every single one of my PCs was seen as some sort of charity case and encouraged to clean up and act better and "make something of themselves" or told that nobody would "take them seriously."
I fondly remember being ever so politely and casually being introduced to the >"use soap item" command at random in Tuluk. ::)
Iunno, I think it just depends on the players there at the time. You have a small gathering of good RP'ers, any area is god damned amusing. I've had pretty similar experiences on a scale of 0 to ohmyeffinggodsofunny/awesome/horrifying in both locales.
Quote from: greasygemo on April 23, 2013, 05:09:09 AM
Quote from: Fathi on April 22, 2013, 10:14:45 PM
I haven't ever had difficulty playing a "gritty" character in Tuluk, but I did find that every single one of my PCs was seen as some sort of charity case and encouraged to clean up and act better and "make something of themselves" or told that nobody would "take them seriously."
I fondly remember being ever so politely and casually being introduced to the >"use soap item" command at random in Tuluk. ::)
Iunno, I think it just depends on the players there at the time. You have a small gathering of good RP'ers, any area is god damned amusing. I've had pretty similar experiences on a scale of 0 to ohmyeffinggodsofunny/awesome/horrifying in both locales.
It is definitely the players that make Armageddon what it is. There is fun to be had everywhere in the game, as long as you're willing do play to the hilt with your character, and are around others willing to do so as well.
Quote from: musashi on April 23, 2013, 12:30:31 AM
Right Reiv, but I'm thinking the reason the Byn always causes trouble when they come up north is precisely because ... they're coming up from the south. It's not that they're bynner thus they stir up a shit storm and everyone hates them ... it's that they're southerners.
If there were northern born inked bynners running around I think it would be more acceptable to the northern citizens to use them for this and that. But as it stands, even though they aren't a geographically aligned faction, and they have a northern compound and have had it for ages ... northern pcs treat the byn like a souther militia clan and don't want anything to do with them. Because ever PC bynner they meet lives in, and was likely born in, Allanak.
But again, I just don't think we have the numbers to split the clan like that so I think I understand why the byn stays south, from an ooc perspective.
That.. Doesn't change when you're in the south. At all.
Hell, one of my own pcs got killed by a bynner right in the south.
I'm not quite sure what a northen bynner compound would look like in the first place. Something tells me that the whole use soap command would be the first to be taught to any old runner ::)
I think Tuluk has a lack of seedier elements in part because of a lack of support for them, and in part because the city itself discourages it. Allanak has the 'rinth and an active Byn militia, not to mention two Rinth clans(Jaxa Pah/Guild) for those people who want to carve out a niche for themselves in such places. Tuluk has.. One. -One- clan based out of the Warrens, the Akai Sjir, and even they are well-known artists who carve out pretty murals and are buddies with the templarate.
This brings me to my second point.. It really does seem as if anyone who doesn't wear lovely clothes without tears or blood or dust in them gets looked at as some kind of outcast. I've seen people at the Tooth with some stains on their clothes get questioned in the manner of 'why don't you just change clothes?' and get offered soap and one time even money for the cleaning lady should they give the sensible answer of 'what other clothes.' I've had gems and free equipment practically thrown at me because I'd occasionally come along on hunting parties or other kind of trips with wealthier characters, You can play a seedy character, certainly.. But with no areas or clans to back you up, a tavern that even in being nominally 'seedy' seems to be filled with the Zalanthan equivalent of germophobes, and a wide array of immensely rich pcs who will try to 'convert' any of the not-so-rich crowd into folk of their own status.. Yeah. I wish you sincere good luck.
Like I said, PC's live in a small microcosm of their own making. And in Tuluk, that microcosm is focused around the upper class commoners and nobility, while the seedier, more desperate gulag locales exist primarily via NPC's and the virtual world. "The city" doesn't discourage seedy elements. The city has plenty of seedy elements in it, they're just all largely un-populated by PC's.
But, is it silly and out of place for a PC in the tooth to try and teach another PC in the tooth how to use soap? Yes. It is.
Is it silly for a silk wearing aide in Allanak to go sit down in the Gaj and ninja dodge all the spilt ale and vomit? Yes. It is.
Are both of these things the result of PC's just wanting other PC's to interact with, thus taking their characters into places they probably would never go to if the player base was larger and interaction could be easily had elsewhere? Yes. Yes they are.
So I agree with you in so far as to say that yes, most player characters who play in Tuluk are playing upper class types and thus, you will be somewhat isolated if you play a lower class person, or you'll be immediately "helped" out of poverty because you have that magickal PC glow that screams opportunity. Can't blame them, it's what they're playing and they don't want you to feel like you're isolated OOC'ly.
Hence my saying I wish the Byn compound was active with a northern unit in it. I think it could provide some of that grit support. Give players a focal point around which to flock if lower class was their thing. But, meh. It is what it is.
There are certainly enough fucking Bynners to accommodate that.
Don't get my hopes up :D
The Byn would likely have an active northern unit if they could get a steady stream of work in that locale. A number of factors in Allanak make hiring the Byn a lot more common occurance there. I'm sure if something in Tuluk could keep Byn busy regularly, they'd likely be happy to stay.
A small problem for the Byn in the north (huh... sounds like something from Game of Thrones "The Byn in the North") is they are a lot less subtle than many clans. If they take down a wanted criminal, they usually want to parade the head of the scum from bar to bar to show how awesome they are and get new contracts. As well as the above mentioned fact that the majority of Byn contracts are 'go here, kill this big or dangerous thing, bring me bits', which is harder in the hunter-rich north.
Also. The Byn could probably fill both compounds with the new, larger playerbase, I'd imagine.
Being gritty in Tuluk is fun. An if you ever want to mortify fancy PC's in silks.. Start a brawl in a tavern there.
Also the Byn is currently overseen by the Southern staff team, so naturally most of the Byn action happens in the South.
Also, Tuluk is bigger than Allanak. I've been through both cities extensively and Tuluk is way bigger.
Also you should all start a new war between Allanak and Tuluk because it would be awesome and a bloodbath.
The arboretum isn't really a bar, nor the Silver Ginka (unless I'm confusing it with someplace else entirely.)
I think our darling fellow pcs can start a war between the two city-states if they really try at it. HINT HINT
HINT
Coded opportunities for seedier, bottom of society roles that Allanak has, and Tuluk doesn't have:
A mostly separated slum/lawless area (the Labyrinth), with a couple of waterholes and two clans (the Guild and the Jaxa Pah). In Tuluk, the Warrens area is not as run down or lawless as the Labyrinth, and UnderTuluk is no more. There's one coded clan in the Warrens (Akai Sjir).
The T'zai Byn company also maintains a solid presence in Allanak, sweeping up a wide range of character concepts in their ranks, and a lot of them are lowly commoners.
Finally, there's the opportunity to play a gemmed magicker. While a few of those roles focus on becoming wealthy or work for powerful groups, most of them would be found at the bottom of society.
For those who are into riches and wealth (and politics etc), Allanak offers similar opportunities to that approach. Templarate, noble Houses, merchant Houses and so forth. Tuluk has two coded clans that offer some of this, that Allanak doesn't have: The Bards of Poets' Circle, and to some extent the Akai Sjir tribe.
It is not impossible to play a concept on the lower social scale. Actually most PCs start there and even stay there for the rest of their lives, no matter how wealthy and silky they become. Money doesn't equal status in Tuluk, which sometimes tends to be forgotten. I do agree with others who have pointed out that playing one of those decidedly non-exceptional roles can be lonely or awkward if you don't have peers to hang out with. To my knowledge at least three of the taverns (plus the Teahouse) see frequent use by various kinds of characters. Some probably spend time in all three, while others tend to avoid one or two in favor of the third. I can't see that it is a problem.
If seedier and grittier is what Tuluk really needs, it could do with some coded support for it. As it is now, it's potentially difficult sure, but not impossible.
I have always felt this way...
Allanak = Hard-mode.
Tuluk = Vacation-mode.
There is nothing wrong with that. In fact I find it to be a relief honestly. On more than one occassion I have had my southern characters "vacation" in Tuluk. A lot of times because I as the player needed to take a "southern stress" break.
Food is more plentiful. Water is more plentiful. Art is more plentiful. Resources in general are more plentiful. The people are nicer, even if it is a fake nice, that is better than a legit open hate.
Do you get backroomed if you screw up? Yes. But only if you screw up. I have never been backroomed for something I legitimately didn't do in Tuluk. I have been backroomed for things I have done in Tuluk and I deserved it every time.
Edited here to Add: Part of the hard-mode to Tuluk would be the unfailing ability for Tuluk to pretty much always catch you doing bad things. I find it infinitely harder to play a criminal element in Tuluk. I guess that could be considered a "hard-mode" feature of Tuluk. It seems that the ONLY way to play a villain in Tuluk is to get the Templarate's permission first, and then, it isn't really a villain anymore.
In Allanak they kill you in the street for things you didn't do. They backroom you for things you never even thought about doing. Happened more than once to me heh. I'm not knocking it. That is part of what makes Allanak "where the big boys play".
I could be wrong and maybe I've just been REALLY REALLY REALLY lucky in Tuluk 100% of the time. If so, I hope that luck holds out.
The Silver Ginka isn't really a tavern. It's more a place to eat very very expensive food.
Quote from: Desertman on April 23, 2013, 11:57:07 AM
Edited here to Add: Part of the hard-mode to Tuluk would be the unfailing ability for Tuluk to pretty much always catch you doing bad things. I find it infinitely harder to play a criminal element in Tuluk. I guess that could be considered a "hard-mode" feature of Tuluk. It seems that the ONLY way to play a villain in Tuluk is to get the Templarate's permission first, and then, it isn't really a villain anymore.
It is much much harder to hide from the Law in Tuluk, because there are no areas like the Labyrinth where the agents of the Law cannot go without considerable risk. That makes the city-based villain (operating outside the Law, without Templarate permission) a mind-bogglingly difficult concept in the North. This was possible when UnderTuluk was still in the game, and it was done quite successfully by some characters in the past (while some simply reminded of rinthi clones with northern accent). In some ways, I'd like it if UnderTuluk was brought back, but there are also reasons both why it shouldn't and couldn't be brought back.
There's also the fact that in Tuluk, if you are caught committing the most minor of crimes, even with a license, your character is pretty much fucked until they die. Get caught pickpocketing a PC? You will be known by everyone there by the next day, and, even if the Templars forgive you for it, the rest of the players definitely won't.
In Allanak, there's such a recycling of criminals that it's not as bad. There are so many rinthi elves roaming about that feeling someone's fingers in your pocket is /almost/ normal if you spend any amount of time there.
Quote from: palomar on April 23, 2013, 12:36:50 PM
In some ways, I'd like it if UnderTuluk was brought back, but there are also reasons both why it shouldn't and couldn't be brought back.
People keep saying this, and perhaps I'm missing something, but.. I really don't see why this is the case. Could someone who's been around for a longer time than I elaborate on it?
Quote from: Patuk on April 23, 2013, 01:20:36 PM
Quote from: palomar on April 23, 2013, 12:36:50 PM
In some ways, I'd like it if UnderTuluk was brought back, but there are also reasons both why it shouldn't and couldn't be brought back.
People keep saying this, and perhaps I'm missing something, but.. I really don't see why this is the case. Could someone who's been around for a longer time than I elaborate on it?
I think he's referring to relatively recent IC events dealing with the flood in Tuluk.
QuoteAt the end of a full week of darkness, the shadow lifts from Suk-Krath to take its own place in the sky as a black moon which reflects no light. Shortly, a series of further crises strikes both cities. In Tuluk, repeated waves of murky water crash in from west of the Scaien Gates, leveling Red Sun Commons, destroying many buildings, leaving thousands dead, and flooding UnderTuluk.
Supposedly everyone there drowned and the whole are is now submerged in water, maybe even destroyed with the tunnels all being collapsed/washed out/filled with debris/wreckage, only staff know since that area is no longer accessible.
I'm of the mind that a lawless area is good to play counter to every civilized areas where criminal types can go to do their thing having a respite from the powers that be. This helps foster conflict which Tuluk could really use of, imo. As for the IC reasons as to whether such a place could exist, is ultimately up to the staff who have total creative control of the game world. They could create a situation where new tunnels were made accessible creating a new sort of Undertuluk, or some completely other type of are that created a harbor for underworldly types. The question is if it fits the staff's big picture of the game. I'm sure if it did fit and there are staff willing to do the work required, such a place would exist, or would be in the works. Staff could easily one day say "there's an earthquake!" Shaking Tuluk up, doing damage to some buildings, and lo and behold, someone discovers some tunnels somewhere. Stranger things have happened.
Quote from: Malken on April 23, 2013, 12:45:15 PM
There's also the fact that in Tuluk, if you are caught committing the most minor of crimes, even with a license, your character is pretty much fucked until they die. Get caught pickpocketing a PC? You will be known by everyone there by the next day, and, even if the Templars forgive you for it, the rest of the players definitely won't.
In Allanak, there's such a recycling of criminals that it's not as bad. There are so many rinthi elves roaming about that feeling someone's fingers in your pocket is /almost/ normal if you spend any amount of time there.
As someone that has played many, many stealthies, north and south. I disagree with your assessment of Tuluk, sir.
I've been caught, and yeah, people know. But that makes it a bit more fun. When people suspect you, but can't prove it, it's the mark of a master in northern culture.
That explains why it couldn't be brought back, and it's something I already knew, but.. I still fail to see why it shouldn't.
Tuluk's interesting because it's been rebuilt on top of itself so many times. The potential for a honeycomb of tunnels beneath the city is definitely there, even in its currently waterlogged state.
I do miss UnderTuluk.
Quote from: LauraMars on April 23, 2013, 02:27:16 PM
Tuluk's interesting because it's been rebuilt on top of itself so many times. The potential for a honeycomb of tunnels beneath the city is definitely there, even in its currently waterlogged state.
I do miss UnderTuluk.
Be the chaaaaaange, start digging.
Chaaaaaaange.. Be it.... *I always picture zombie-like players saying it like that each time they repeat it over and over again*
Quote from: Patuk on April 23, 2013, 02:26:31 PM
That explains why it couldn't be brought back, and it's something I already knew, but.. I still fail to see why it shouldn't.
Another vast area (a few hundred rooms) diluting the concentration of the playerbase in an already big city and the world in general. It may be my personal opinion, but it never felt properly connected to Tuluk. That is, it didn't have a feeling or mood that truly set it apart from its southern cousin, and it didn't really feel as if it was
Tuluk's underbelly. Just an underbelly. Those of its residents who left the depths didn't really have a lot of reasons to go topside other than to stir shit up, whereas clanned rinthis usually (ideally) do when they go south.
Quote from: palomar on April 23, 2013, 02:47:57 PM
Quote from: Patuk on April 23, 2013, 02:26:31 PM
That explains why it couldn't be brought back, and it's something I already knew, but.. I still fail to see why it shouldn't.
Another vast area (a few hundred rooms) diluting the concentration of the playerbase in an already big city and the world in general. It may be my personal opinion, but it never felt properly connected to Tuluk. That is, it didn't have a feeling or mood that truly set it apart from its southern cousin, and it didn't really feel as if it was Tuluk's underbelly. Just an underbelly. Those of its residents who left the depths didn't really have a lot of reasons to go topside other than to stir shit up, whereas clanned rinthis usually (ideally) do when they go south.
Why is it a bad thing to have people coming in Tuluk with the purpose of stirring shit up? Hell, that's what 'nakkies think of rinthers, even if it's false.
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 23, 2013, 02:00:25 PM
I'm of the mind that a lawless area is good to play counter to every civilized areas where criminal types can go to do their thing having a respite from the powers that be. This helps foster conflict which Tuluk could really use of, imo.
Agreed. Though it's possible that Tuluk's lack of any lawless region is by design, I'm of the opinion that it serves as one of the city's more glaring (OOC) flaws. I imagine the reason to annihilate UnderTuluk was based more on OOC reasoning than it simply being part of the storyline. And while many players were quite fond of the region, I feel it didn't quite serve as the ideal counterbalance which the Rinth does with Allanak - I don't know why, but something about UT just seemed too remote and unplayable to me, though that's certainly going to be a matter of opinion.
Without a lawless region where criminals can congregate freely, unhindered by templarate/militia control, the end result is that everyone essentially gets along and is each other's buddy. If Arm weren't a game, but rather a novel, it might work quite nicely. In a story of this sort, Tuluk's greatest enemy would be itself, yet the fact that the people could not OPENLY war with one another would serve as the fuel for conflict which drives the story forward. In an online gaming context, however, I don't think this ends up happening. Instead, cooperation becomes the order of the day and things like RPing racism or social class distinction becomes diffused. This is further compounded by the fact that Tuluk has a concept of harmonic pretense, where negative things have to be done covertly in order to create an external facade of peacefulness.
During the Occupation, Tuluk (then simply known as the Northlands) was really in it's heyday, playability-wise, compared to now. The rebels had a secret hide out from which they launched occasional attacks and hatched their plans to oust the Allanaki occupiers. They could sneak into the Gol Krathu and pretend to be an average non-rebel Joe, but when things escalated they could run and hide in their own area. From a playability standpoint it didn't matter that the enemy was Allanak, it could have been Tuluk itself. The point was that there were two distinct sides, and both sides had areas where they could flee to, lick their wounds, and live to fight another day. In Tuluk, not only does every criminal have nowhere to hide, they also have to essentially be in cahoots with the templarate, thus diminishing the divide between what should otherwise be opposing sides. Anyone who aspires to build conflict
must support the notion of opposing sides, even if the definition of those sides may blur at times.
Until Tuluk has another lawless region again (be it in the form of a rebel camp in the Grey Forest, a smaller section of catacombs after some of the water in flooded Under Tuluk dries out, or a section of alleys in the Warrens in which soldiers never/rarely venture) the templars and militia are, in essence, all powerful and cannot be conspired against (the ultimate conflict cockblock). It is as if every Tuluki has a dull black gem around their neck. Resistance really is futile. Gone are the days when great personas like Hekorz would steal into the Gol Krathu, boldly fire a volley of arrows at a soldier, and slip back into the safety net of his secret rebel camp. Suppression and stagnation reigns supreme in the modern times of the North, where people who want to do mean and nasty things have to actually get permission from their enemies before they can be mean and nasty in the first place.
Because the way things were, there couldn't realistically be any other reasons. Some minor trade in various resources is all. Ever tried getting in with Tulukis as a southron? Imagine if you were from a nearby place where people who actively shun the Sun King's Light decide to live in darkness? Good luck with that. In my experience, the successful PCs in UnderTuluk had no reasons to make more than very brief contact with the surface city.
Undertulukis were the ones that finally saw the truth in the Light, and how oppressive and fake the surface was. They didn't WANT to go up top because it was a terrible place, and living in squalor below worked perfectly for them. Think of Demolition Man, and the people that live below. They CHOOSE to live there rather than be a puppet upstairs.
And in that movie, they would steal up top to rob a Taco Bell, or cause a minor distraction to try and get people to "wake up" to the natural disorder of things. But they could always go back underground, until John Spartan went down there, because no self-respecting cop would DARE.
Like Suhuy said, without a place to be anonymous, in a game where there are MAYBE 20 people in your area at any given time, you're kind of screwed. Sure, there are PCs that understand that if I steal from them, but they have no proof of it other than I have something they used to have, I'm applauded and admired. But generally, nobody likes a thief or a criminal, Templarate sponsored or not. It seems like, if I were to steal from someone noteworthy, or steal something OF note, I could never tell anyone about it anyways. Either the person would want it back, or I would then be a 'braggart' and "not Tuluki". So why try to be bad, when I can just craft wads?
Make the alleys of Tuluk's Warrens lawless, and slap a shanty bar in there. Hooray
I'd like to point out there are more than two public gathering points in Tuluk.
Two of the others not mentioned are both hunter type gathering places from the descriptions. One of those middle crustish. The other more outlander, a place for those with ties to the wilds.
It would seem that if your pc is being harassed then start frequenting a different place. Pass rumors around to other bloodied hunters coming in that these other places are 'more accepting' to your kind.
That is the subtlety of handling that issue icly.
Eventually the owners of the Tooth might give a look to the soldiers harassing the clientele and hurting their profits. Then again there is a vnpc world that perhaps makes up for it.
That won't work, Potaje.
Undertuluk's layout did leave something to be desired. It was difficult to really get in and out of. A more effective design (I think) would have several entrances/exits throughout the city that would in effect connect all sections of the city (with some even outside the city, allowing lifetime criminals to come and go from the city). A really cool layout would allow for secret entrances to the various estates throughout the Ivory via Undertuluk. Chosen lords and ladies with superhero complexes could sneak in and out at night, creating havok in the shadow of the Sun King, or maybe have their servants do it for them because that's unsavory business.
UT is gone.
Quote from: IronMonk on April 22, 2013, 09:45:53 PM
I just don't understand. Just because Tuluk isn't a carbon copy of Allanak, it is horrible?
Tuluk is horrible for a lot of OOC balance reasons and I have no plans to play a character based there until they're changed.
The impression I get is people are
discouraged from playing 'seedier' types by more then just a handful of prissy PCs, but by the design of the area from the coded and supported level. The things I like about Tuluk are many and at some point I would like to dig in and experience them more, but I cannot shake the impression it's designed to be a sandbox in a bubble for people more interested in the self-gratification of a
very specific type of character then part of a brutal, desperate and dying world.
I've had the good fortune to see a lot of the game, Tuluk is the only place I've seen that feels like it doesn't quite click with everything else.
Quote from: Patuk on April 23, 2013, 06:23:43 AM
This brings me to my second point.. It really does seem as if anyone who doesn't wear lovely clothes without tears or blood or dust in them gets looked at as some kind of outcast. I've seen people at the Tooth with some stains on their clothes get questioned in the manner of 'why don't you just change clothes?' and get offered soap and one time even money for the cleaning lady should they give the sensible answer of 'what other clothes.' I've had gems and free equipment practically thrown at me because I'd occasionally come along on hunting parties or other kind of trips with wealthier characters, You can play a seedy character, certainly.. But with no areas or clans to back you up, a tavern that even in being nominally 'seedy' seems to be filled with the Zalanthan equivalent of germophobes, and a wide array of immensely rich pcs who will try to 'convert' any of the not-so-rich crowd into folk of their own status.. Yeah. I wish you sincere good luck.
Not a lot to add to that, other than it warrants being quoted and read again.
Desertman got the easy mode / hard mode thing pretty much spot on, too.
Quote from: Vwest on April 24, 2013, 07:48:19 PM
The things I like about Tuluk are many and at some point I would like to dig in and experience them more, but I cannot shake the impression it's designed to be a sandbox in a bubble for people more interested in the self-gratification of a very specific type of character then part of a brutal, desperate and dying world.
Any strong, vibrant culture is meant to be this.
You can play a seedy type in general if you don't allow yourself to be influenced by benefactors that seemingly want to give you free stuff or people who want to clean you up. It's pretty simple, really. If your character has been poor all his life, that is a natural reason for him to not trust such people or their offerings with possible strings attached. You can even play a seedy type with a clan to back you up if you use the legality of theft and assassination to your advantage.
I don't really get the argument that it's impossible to play such characters, yet Tuluk is "easy mode". The game is as easy or difficult as you want it to be, and Tuluk just has different challenges than Allanak has.
I've never played in Tuluk before, at least not full time. I've been there with clans of course, but never had a PC that lived there or called it home. In all honesty I don't find anything wrong with Tuluk being completely different than Allanak, because I thought it was supposed to be. I could be wrong though, because again my experience there is limited. I simply keep choosing Allanak because I know it, and I'm comfortable there no matter what race/guild I decide to come up with. For me Tuluk is the opposite of easy mode, because looking at it as a starting point (and home) of a future PC, I would feel as if I'm a complete newbie to the game again, which for me, well, I make enough mistakes. ;D
That being said...I think I will play there next PC, just to see what all the fuss really is about.
Obviously there are people who like the Tuluk style of gameplay.
Obviously there are people who prefer the Allanak.
I think that's fine. The more people you engage, the better. Forcing people to play in the style you like is just as little fun for them as when you're forced to play in the style they like.
I think the solution is simple. If you don't like one or the other of the cities, don't play there.
I don't understand the prevalent need I see groups have from game to game to destroy the areas other people like but they don't. Isn't it just fine to play where you want to play and let others play their game? Tolerate diversity in your fellow geeks!
I've seen two games die because of this idea that cramming everyone together and making everyone play the same way is better. People just quit and go looking for somewhere else to play that suits them. While you might end up with all the people in the game to play with, that's not any -more- people than you had before you ruined the fun for people whose tastes are different than yours.
Whether you play in one city or the other, it's more fun if you assume other people will play correctly.
Quote from: Vwest on April 24, 2013, 07:48:19 PM
Quote from: IronMonk on April 22, 2013, 09:45:53 PM
I just don't understand. Just because Tuluk isn't a carbon copy of Allanak, it is horrible?
Tuluk is horrible for a lot of OOC balance reasons and I have no plans to play a character based there until they're changed.
The impression I get is people are discouraged from playing 'seedier' types by more then just a handful of prissy PCs, but by the design of the area from the coded and supported level. The things I like about Tuluk are many and at some point I would like to dig in and experience them more, but I cannot shake the impression it's designed to be a sandbox in a bubble for people more interested in the self-gratification of a very specific type of character then part of a brutal, desperate and dying world.
I've had the good fortune to see a lot of the game, Tuluk is the only place I've seen that feels like it doesn't quite click with everything else.
Quote from: Patuk on April 23, 2013, 06:23:43 AM
This brings me to my second point.. It really does seem as if anyone who doesn't wear lovely clothes without tears or blood or dust in them gets looked at as some kind of outcast. I've seen people at the Tooth with some stains on their clothes get questioned in the manner of 'why don't you just change clothes?' and get offered soap and one time even money for the cleaning lady should they give the sensible answer of 'what other clothes.' I've had gems and free equipment practically thrown at me because I'd occasionally come along on hunting parties or other kind of trips with wealthier characters, You can play a seedy character, certainly.. But with no areas or clans to back you up, a tavern that even in being nominally 'seedy' seems to be filled with the Zalanthan equivalent of germophobes, and a wide array of immensely rich pcs who will try to 'convert' any of the not-so-rich crowd into folk of their own status.. Yeah. I wish you sincere good luck.
Not a lot to add to that, other than it warrants being quoted and read again.
Desertman got the easy mode / hard mode thing pretty much spot on, too.
I love playing seedy types in Tuluk. I love playing ones that have no affiliation, and just live for themselves too. it's 100% possible. Yeah, it's not the rinth where your some hardcore gangsta. But it's 100% doable. As in, I have done it.
Just to chime in here... Having played heavily in Tuluk. If you believe that the people 'cleaning you up' or 'helping you out' or 'training you' or 'investing in you' are doing it to be nice. You are dead wrong. I have literally never seen anyone do it without some kind of return. Often you will see hunter types doing it to helpless looking PCs who say they're good at artisan stuff. You clothe and bathe this little artisan. Then you pump them to produce finished products out of your animal parts for big sid. If they run off on you, whatever you're out a few small and maybe you kill them later.
If you're an artisan merchanty type and you need shit from outside the walls. You go out shopping your local watering hole and dump for a grubby looking hunter whose wearing their shirt for armor. You throw some leather on them, point them in the direction of what you need. All of a sudden you're once again rolling in materials and sid.
Just because people 'help' you doesn't mean it's easy mode. It means YOU ARE BEING USED.
Edit - For merchants using hunter types. The turnover rate is really high, so if you could collect the bloodied and soiled gear after they die. It's more cost effective to give it to the next statistic you 'help'... That's pretty grim to me.
If you want to play a gritty, shady, rough-and-tumble PC in Tuluk that's seeped in crime..
Tuluk is hard mode.
I encourage it though. I think some people tend to regard Tuluk like being a whole city like the Sanctuary. It's not all sunshine and roses and shouldn't (IMO) be regarded as such.
That being said, it's a far cry from the Rinth and it's shady area's shouldn't ever degenerate into that.
But.. I wonder if -part- of UnderTuluk would ever be drained naturally... <.<
I liked palomar's post about Under Tuluk just being physically underground, more than Tuluk's actual underground. No doubt a lot of interesting things down there, things that we'll never again Find Out IC. But eh, whatever.
I think if you choose to believe all the surface sunshine, smiles and free bounty for all in Tuluk, more fool you. (I mean you as a player, not whether you have your character only see that.)
Playing paranoid is so much more fun (and in keeping!).
It saves me time if I just quote from my prior posts en masse:
Quote from: Red Ranger on November 21, 2012, 09:53:44 PM
So, after reading the posts from the people that don't like Tuluk, I'm now confused. Does Tuluk suck because it's easy (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44557.msg722426.html#msg722426) mode (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44640.msg722700.html#msg722700) where everything is handed to you on a platter... or does it suck because it's hard mode where only elitist Art Majors (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44640.msg722716.html#msg722716) can get in on the action (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44640.msg722659.html#msg722659)?
Also:
Quote from: Red Ranger on November 20, 2012, 10:35:46 PM
It appears to me that the people that think that there can't be "grit" in Tuluk are the ones that don't really understand Tuluk. There's plenty of potential for grit, if by "grit" one means lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate. However, if by "grit" one means the ability to act like a total f**kwad (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19) without having to face dire IC consequences, then there isn't much grit in Tuluk.
In my opinion, one major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is in the involvement of the Powers That Be. In Allanak, the Powers that Be won't lift a finger unless you're directly bothering them. You can live or die or barbecue dead neighbors on the curbside and the Powers That Be won't care, as long as you aren't injuring them, making them look bad, or making more work for them. Therefore you can go around yelling sh*tc*ck! to your heart's content, and as long as you don't cause trouble for one of those Powers That Be, you're in the clear. Tuluk, however, is different because the Power That Be care about you. They care enough to watch your every move. Unlike in Allanak where you can get by just by not drawing attention to yourself, in Tuluk you can get in trouble for not drawing enough attention to yourself. If you don't sing loudly enough in church on Sunday, you might just have to visit Room 101 and learn what it really means to love Big Brother.
Allanak is openly violent and tumultuous like the movies Escape from New York or No Escape, and the Powers That Be are the ones with the guns. Tuluk is like the novel 1984 or the movie Equilibrium, where the violence is institutional and out of the public eye. Not everyone understands or appreciates the differences, and if you want to go around yelling sh*tc*ck! at people in Tuluk you're going to find yourself assassinated or disappeared (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44640.msg722499.html#msg722499). That's the way it's supposed to be in Tuluk. And I think that's pretty hardcore (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44557.msg722452.html#msg722452).
But maybe there's a different definition of "grit" in this new thread:
Quote from: Desertman on April 23, 2013, 11:57:07 AM
Edited here to Add: Part of the hard-mode to Tuluk would be the unfailing ability for Tuluk to pretty much always catch you doing bad things. I find it infinitely harder to play a criminal element in Tuluk. I guess that could be considered a "hard-mode" feature of Tuluk. It seems that the ONLY way to play a villain in Tuluk is to get the Templarate's permission first, and then, it isn't really a villain anymore.
It all depends on what players mean by "criminal" or "villain." It's very possible to do "bad things" to other PCs in Tuluk, things such as bribery, theft, extortion, or killing. It's so possible it's even legal! So the availability of those actions, which I would personally categorize as "bad things," doesn't seem to be the issue for the haters. Those "bad things" things are already available and accessible.
What seems to be the issue is actually the need for "permission." IMO the need for "permission" is overblown by many players, but the complaints about it are very telling. Those complaining aren't really asking for more "grit" IMO, what they're asking for is the ability to play a blustery "I bow to no man!" PC in Tuluk and yet to more easily escape the swift and possibly lethal IC consequences. In Allanak it's possible to play those Wild West gunslinger archetypes or Ayn Rand rugged individualists and have them survive for a while even as they yell sh*tc*ck! at everyone. Yet when the heat gets to be too much they can flee to the Labyrinth. Guess what, though? Tuluk is different. It's harder. It's an oppressive and intrusive police state more akin to Oceania from 1984 or to the Matrix. Unfortunately for the haters they're not playing Neo and they don't get to stick it to The Man. They're playing Winston Smith.
Sorry?
Epic post Red Ranger.
Quote from: Jeshin on April 24, 2013, 10:51:12 PM
Just to chime in here... Having played heavily in Tuluk. If you believe that the people 'cleaning you up' or 'helping you out' or 'training you' or 'investing in you' are doing it to be nice. You are dead wrong. I have literally never seen anyone do it without some kind of return. Often you will see hunter types doing it to helpless looking PCs who say they're good at artisan stuff. You clothe and bathe this little artisan. Then you pump them to produce finished products out of your animal parts for big sid. If they run off on you, whatever you're out a few small and maybe you kill them later.
So, you be nice to me, and I'll be nice to you. Sounds like an episode of Barney and Friends. Nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying. That isn't exactly sinister murder, corruption, betrayal. That is a basic business transaction between two agreeing parties that both benefit. To make it better, they are in the north where there are many more resources so both of these parties can benefit more readily. You just described a best possible peaceful scenario for a Zalanthas business transaction.
Quote from: Jeshin on April 24, 2013, 10:51:12 PM
If you're an artisan merchanty type and you need shit from outside the walls. You go out shopping your local watering hole and dump for a grubby looking hunter whose wearing their shirt for armor. You throw some leather on them, point them in the direction of what you need. All of a sudden you're once again rolling in materials and sid.
Same thing...
Quote from: Jeshin on April 24, 2013, 10:51:12 PM
Just because people 'help' you doesn't mean it's easy mode. It means YOU ARE BEING USED.
........It is still mutually beneficial in an area with vast resources that provide both ends of the spectrum with profits based off of the transaction. Being used, and making a profit from it yourself. That sounds like a great way to be used. Use me more.
If your point is, "Well, when we make these mutually beneficial transactions with each other, I am thinking, "Haha, I got you now stupid hunter, you are going to work for me"", well, that is only "hard mode" in your character's mind. To the other guy, he is happy to be working with you most likely.
It's like Dr. Evil thinking he is "evil", when everyone else is going, "Meh, he's not really that sinister."
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 25, 2013, 09:49:41 AM
It all depends on what players mean by "criminal" or "villain." It's very possible to do "bad things" to other PCs in Tuluk, things such as bribery, theft, extortion, or killing. It's so possible it's even legal! So the availability of those actions, which I would personally categorize as "bad things," doesn't seem to be the issue for the haters. Those "bad things" things are already available and accessible.
What seems to be the issue is actually the need for "permission." IMO the need for "permission" is overblown by many players, but the complaints about it are very telling. Those complaining aren't really asking for more "grit" IMO, what they're asking for is the ability to play a blustery "I bow to no man!" PC in Tuluk and yet to more easily escape the swift and possibly lethal IC consequences. In Allanak it's possible to play those Wild West gunslinger archetypes or Ayn Rand rugged individualists and have them survive for a while even as they yell sh*tc*ck! at everyone. Yet when the heat gets to be too much they can flee to the Labyrinth. Guess what, though? Tuluk is different. It's harder. It's an oppressive and intrusive police state more akin to Oceania from 1984 or to the Matrix. Unfortunately for the haters they're not playing Neo and they don't get to stick it to The Man. They're playing Winston Smith.
Sorry?
This is exactly my point....
If the authorities sanction it, you are no longer a criminal element. You are acting completely within the law. Now, is what you are doing possibly a moral issue? Maybe, based off of RL moral values I guess, and depending on what your character's specific moral values may be. But, you are basically Lawful
Chaotic Evil. You aren't a criminal.
Quote
This is exactly my point....
If the authorities sanction it, you are no longer a criminal element. You are acting completely within the law. Now, is what you are doing possibly a moral issue? Maybe, based off of RL moral values I guess, and depending on what your character's specific moral values may be. But, you are basically Lawful Chaotic. You aren't a criminal.
So you concede that in Tuluk bribery, theft, extortion, and killing are all accessible and that "gritty" RP meaning lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate is also accessible... Yet you're upset because when you rob and kill PCs in Tuluk it's not technically illegal? The fact that it's legal is just taking out ALL the fun for you?
p.s. I think you mean Lawful Evil?
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 25, 2013, 09:49:41 AM
It saves me time if I just quote from my prior posts en masse:
Quote from: Red Ranger on November 21, 2012, 09:53:44 PM
So, after reading the posts from the people that don't like Tuluk, I'm now confused. Does Tuluk suck because it's easy (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44557.msg722426.html#msg722426) mode (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44640.msg722700.html#msg722700) where everything is handed to you on a platter... or does it suck because it's hard mode where only elitist Art Majors (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44640.msg722716.html#msg722716) can get in on the action (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44640.msg722659.html#msg722659)?
Also:
Quote from: Red Ranger on November 20, 2012, 10:35:46 PM
It appears to me that the people that think that there can't be "grit" in Tuluk are the ones that don't really understand Tuluk. There's plenty of potential for grit, if by "grit" one means lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate. However, if by "grit" one means the ability to act like a total f**kwad (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19) without having to face dire IC consequences, then there isn't much grit in Tuluk.
In my opinion, one major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is in the involvement of the Powers That Be. In Allanak, the Powers that Be won't lift a finger unless you're directly bothering them. You can live or die or barbecue dead neighbors on the curbside and the Powers That Be won't care, as long as you aren't injuring them, making them look bad, or making more work for them. Therefore you can go around yelling sh*tc*ck! to your heart's content, and as long as you don't cause trouble for one of those Powers That Be, you're in the clear. Tuluk, however, is different because the Power That Be care about you. They care enough to watch your every move. Unlike in Allanak where you can get by just by not drawing attention to yourself, in Tuluk you can get in trouble for not drawing enough attention to yourself. If you don't sing loudly enough in church on Sunday, you might just have to visit Room 101 and learn what it really means to love Big Brother.
Allanak is openly violent and tumultuous like the movies Escape from New York or No Escape, and the Powers That Be are the ones with the guns. Tuluk is like the novel 1984 or the movie Equilibrium, where the violence is institutional and out of the public eye. Not everyone understands or appreciates the differences, and if you want to go around yelling sh*tc*ck! at people in Tuluk you're going to find yourself assassinated or disappeared (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44640.msg722499.html#msg722499). That's the way it's supposed to be in Tuluk. And I think that's pretty hardcore (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44557.msg722452.html#msg722452).
But maybe there's a different definition of "grit" in this new thread:
Quote from: Desertman on April 23, 2013, 11:57:07 AM
Edited here to Add: Part of the hard-mode to Tuluk would be the unfailing ability for Tuluk to pretty much always catch you doing bad things. I find it infinitely harder to play a criminal element in Tuluk. I guess that could be considered a "hard-mode" feature of Tuluk. It seems that the ONLY way to play a villain in Tuluk is to get the Templarate's permission first, and then, it isn't really a villain anymore.
It all depends on what players mean by "criminal" or "villain." It's very possible to do "bad things" to other PCs in Tuluk, things such as bribery, theft, extortion, or killing. It's so possible it's even legal! So the availability of those actions, which I would personally categorize as "bad things," doesn't seem to be the issue for the haters. Those "bad things" things are already available and accessible.
What seems to be the issue is actually the need for "permission." IMO the need for "permission" is overblown by many players, but the complaints about it are very telling. Those complaining aren't really asking for more "grit" IMO, what they're asking for is the ability to play a blustery "I bow to no man!" PC in Tuluk and yet to more easily escape the swift and possibly lethal IC consequences. In Allanak it's possible to play those Wild West gunslinger archetypes or Ayn Rand rugged individualists and have them survive for a while even as they yell sh*tc*ck! at everyone. Yet when the heat gets to be too much they can flee to the Labyrinth. Guess what, though? Tuluk is different. It's harder. It's an oppressive and intrusive police state more akin to Oceania from 1984 or to the Matrix. Unfortunately for the haters they're not playing Neo and they don't get to stick it to The Man. They're playing Winston Smith.
Sorry?
I like this post. It's a great example of what Tuluk should be like in an ideal world. I'd like to play in a Tuluk like this.
However, this play model relies heavily on the Powers That Be to really BE Big Brother, and I feel that this often does not happen to the extent that it should. It's hard to run a city state according to a specific ideal when your play model relies on the actions of two or three pcs to drive a feeling of suppression, dystopia, and paranoia.
Perhaps if more of Tuluk was set up to support the vision of a dystopian, instrusive police state in ambient ways, I'd feel more like your vision of Tuluk is a reality for the rest of the playerbase. Allanak feels like a ravaged desert city with an oppressive, fascist government run by an evil sorcerer king because it's written that way - there are corpses in the streets, templars with whips, subjugated slaves, starving beggars.
Tuluk's first impression is one not of dystopia, but of art and music, light and beauty - and this is the impression that the most players seem to have, to quite a deep level. These things may be a huge part of Tuluki culture, and that's fine and I love it, but personally, I'd rather be highly aware of the police state as a player, even as my brainwashed commoner slavishly worships the Sun King.
I don't want to pretend this dystopian government exists but never see evidence of it - I want to see it exist, and pretend it doesn't exist.
Just my two cents.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 25, 2013, 10:21:15 AM
Quote
This is exactly my point....
If the authorities sanction it, you are no longer a criminal element. You are acting completely within the law. Now, is what you are doing possibly a moral issue? Maybe, based off of RL moral values I guess, and depending on what your character's specific moral values may be. But, you are basically Lawful Chaotic. You aren't a criminal.
So you concede that in Tuluk bribery, theft, extortion, and killing are all accessible and that "gritty" RP meaning lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate is also accessible... Yet you're upset because when you rob and kill PCs in Tuluk it's not technically illegal? The fact that it's legal is just taking out ALL the fun for you?
p.s. I think you mean Lawful Evil?
Oops, yes, Lawful Evil.
Yes, the fact it isn't illegal makes you no longer a criminal. That is my point. I never said you couldn't kill, steal, or extort, all I said was you have to do it while the powers on high give you a good little rub on your good little head for being a good little boy.....
Quote from: Desertman on April 25, 2013, 10:31:19 AM
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 25, 2013, 10:21:15 AM
Quote
This is exactly my point....
If the authorities sanction it, you are no longer a criminal element. You are acting completely within the law. Now, is what you are doing possibly a moral issue? Maybe, based off of RL moral values I guess, and depending on what your character's specific moral values may be. But, you are basically Lawful Chaotic. You aren't a criminal.
So you concede that in Tuluk bribery, theft, extortion, and killing are all accessible and that "gritty" RP meaning lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate is also accessible... Yet you're upset because when you rob and kill PCs in Tuluk it's not technically illegal? The fact that it's legal is just taking out ALL the fun for you?
p.s. I think you mean Lawful Evil?
Oops, yes, Lawful Evil.
Yes, the fact it isn't illegal makes you no longer a crimnal. That is my point.
You'll still be a hunted criminal if you don't ask for permission first.
Just don't ask for permission!
I never do! SHITCOCK
Am I the only one who "misinterprets" the whole licensing thing? Or am I the only one who does -not- "misinterpret" it?
From my understanding, the license isn't permission, at all. Burglary is against the law in Tuluk. It's still against the law, even if you have a license. If you get caught, you will still be "caught" and there will still be consequences.
HOWEVER - those consequences will be marginal compared to an unlicensed burglar. For instance:
If you're licensed and get caught, the templar might say to the victim "It never happened. We shall never speak of it again."
Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "Naughty naughty, try harder next time, and don't pick someone with such good perception."
Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "That was the sloppiest job I've EVER heard - give me 100 sids for a donation to the cause" and then he gives the victim 100 sids to shut him up.
If you are NOT licensed, you might end up in jail for 3 game-days, be fined 100 sids for breaking the law, and be required to pay another 500 sids for a license.
And so on and so forth - depending on the crime, the criminal, the templar, and the victim. A licensed burglar who breaks into the Winrothol estate and burglarizes Joe Winrothol's #1 aide's locker - is not going to get off scott free IF he gets caught. UNLESS he was sent to do this job by Sue Tenneshi, who paid the templar an extra "donation" to turn his head.
Quote from: Lizzie on April 25, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
Am I the only one who "misinterprets" the whole licensing thing? Or am I the only one who does -not- "misinterpret" it?
From my understanding, the license isn't permission, at all. Burglary is against the law in Tuluk. It's still against the law, even if you have a license. If you get caught, you will still be "caught" and there will still be consequences.
HOWEVER - those consequences will be marginal compared to an unlicensed burglar. For instance:
If you're licensed and get caught, the templar might say to the victim "It never happened. We shall never speak of it again."
Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "Naughty naughty, try harder next time, and don't pick someone with such good perception."
Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "That was the sloppiest job I've EVER heard - give me 100 sids for a donation to the cause" and then he gives the victim 100 sids to shut him up.
If you are NOT licensed, you might end up in jail for 3 game-days, be fined 100 sids for breaking the law, and be required to pay another 500 sids for a license.
And so on and so forth - depending on the crime, the criminal, the templar, and the victim. A licensed burglar who breaks into the Winrothol estate and burglarizes Joe Winrothol's #1 aide's locker - is not going to get off scott free IF he gets caught. UNLESS he was sent to do this job by Sue Tenneshi, who paid the templar an extra "donation" to turn his head.
This.
A Tuluki license is not for a criminal, it's for an artist. The artist pays for the "right" to perform and must suffer the consequences of poor art.
It is just that in this case, the consequences for poor art are more severe than one (our real world, western ((for the most part)) minds) would think.
It's an alien concept for most of us, since to most of us "sanctioned" acts of theft and murder are not "art." It requires a shift in thinking, in *gasp* role-play.
Don't like/agree/want it? Don't play in Tuluk. Play in the south/tribal areas and smirk and loudly talk about how stupid the northerners are for their fru-fru ways
IG.
When I play, I'm playing
my game, not yours. My game might include the "fru-fru" stuff as another may think of it. Too bad. Play your game (which doesn't) and on the occasions when our two games intersect in Zalanthas, we'll deal with it.
Quote from: Pale Horse on April 25, 2013, 11:38:17 AM
Don't like/agree/want it? Don't play in Tuluk.
That's pretty much the only thing you can do at this point. Trying to change anything via the GDB is pointless.
Tuluk drives me insane these days, so I'm using this time to try other places and I'm finding out that there are other places I didn't think I'd like but that I absolutely love these days.
If Tuluk ends up becoming deserted, then maybe I was right and some changes are needed, if it never happens, then maybe I was wrong and there are more people than I thought who enjoys it.
Spending your playing time in Tuluk and bitching that it sucks is a bit useless, I know, I did that for years.
Quote from: Lizzie on April 25, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
Am I the only one who "misinterprets" the whole licensing thing? Or am I the only one who does -not- "misinterpret" it?
From my understanding, the license isn't permission, at all. Burglary is against the law in Tuluk. It's still against the law, even if you have a license. If you get caught, you will still be "caught" and there will still be consequences.
HOWEVER - those consequences will be marginal compared to an unlicensed burglar. For instance:
If you're licensed and get caught, the templar might say to the victim "It never happened. We shall never speak of it again."
Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "Naughty naughty, try harder next time, and don't pick someone with such good perception."
Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "That was the sloppiest job I've EVER heard - give me 100 sids for a donation to the cause" and then he gives the victim 100 sids to shut him up.
If you are NOT licensed, you might end up in jail for 3 game-days, be fined 100 sids for breaking the law, and be required to pay another 500 sids for a license.
And so on and so forth - depending on the crime, the criminal, the templar, and the victim. A licensed burglar who breaks into the Winrothol estate and burglarizes Joe Winrothol's #1 aide's locker - is not going to get off scott free IF he gets caught. UNLESS he was sent to do this job by Sue Tenneshi, who paid the templar an extra "donation" to turn his head.
Having played a Jihaen Templar before, I -can- say that there is (or was) in fact documentation that outlined basic ideas on what should be fines/punishments for certain crimes. Now, this documentation was in fact quite old, but it helped enforce the corruptibility and overall feel of Tuluk. I'm not going to give specific examples, but it was akin to "Well, if they get caught stealing, fine them thirty coins to make up for your time, and send them on their way" but "If they're caught trying to steal from someone above the Commoner caste, fine them two small for the audacity".
I also thought the GDB was for discussion of points, clarification, and debate. Sorry guys, I misinterpreted the idea of enjoying an interactive storytelling game by discussing its finer points. I guess I can never play in Tuluk because I 'don't get it'. I guess its fine that some people truly feel that they are playing two different games, and wanted assistance reconciling the two either in the game world, or in their own mind.
Quote from: Dakota on April 25, 2013, 06:45:37 AM
But.. I wonder if -part- of UnderTuluk would ever be drained naturally... <.<
Like....all of it? Plzkthx.
I sort of see Tuluk as Ba Sing Se from Avatar. Does that make sense?
For the record, there are totally lawless areas in Tuluk..of course, just like the rinth, they are controlled by somebody.
That is about all I have for this thread. As I like both areas equally. When I want to play a certain type of PC, I play Tuluk, When I want to play another I play Allanak, and another has to be tribal.
For instance, if I want to play a patriot, well, that is usually easier and more fulfilling in Tuluk. Mercenary, I will play in Nak.
+1 to what Lizzie (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45373.msg748234.html#msg748234), Pale Horse (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45373.msg748236.html#msg748236), and Riev (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45373.msg748270.html#msg748270) have to say about artistry, crime, and punishment in Tuluk.
Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on April 25, 2013, 03:12:28 PM
I sort of see Tuluk as Ba Sing Se from Avatar. Does that make sense?
I agree that Ba Sing Se is a great analogy to Tuluk. It's even come up before!
Quote from: Ender on May 15, 2008, 06:12:21 AM
Tuluki culture is one of the aspects of the game I really like, and it's often easily misunderstood. As for real life counterparts it's hard for me to draw direct comparisons, but eastern and central asian cultures like China and India would be the closest examples I could think of.
Another decent example would be Ba Sing Se from the show Avatar: the last Airbender.
Quote from: X-D on April 25, 2013, 03:17:00 PM
For the record, there are totally lawless areas in Tuluk..of course, just like the rinth, they are controlled by somebody.
That is about all I have for this thread. As I like both areas equally. When I want to play a certain type of PC, I play Tuluk, When I want to play another I play Allanak, and another has to be tribal.
For instance, if I want to play a patriot, well, that is usually easier and more fulfilling in Tuluk. Mercenary, I will play in Nak.
This. I want to clarify I don't hate Tuluk. I like the fact it is a little less "hard" to make it in Tuluk. After I play a longlived Nak character, I often play in Tuluk for a bit just to get out of the stress-zone, so to speak.
The game needs extremes on opposite ends of the spectrum. If Tuluk was like Nak then travelling wouldn't be nearly as appealing for either end.
Red Ranger, great post. Lots of good posts here about Tuluki culture that reverberate with my lengthy experience there. Tuluk is sufficiently grimdark in my eyes, a lot of times in a more horrifying, psychological sense than Allanak is capable of. If you want that experience, it is available to you.
And now, the only thing I can think of after reading RR's post:
Quote
Templar: For the crime of general barbarism, and repeated usage of the word "shitcock" in the Sanctuary, how do you plea?
Bynner: I'm roofless, nigga! Down wif da white city!
Templar: The subject's testimony is noted, along with the time of day. You may begin your work, jailer.
Torturer: <as he drives a pick through the Bynner's fingernail, eliciting a howling scream> The Sun King, great Muk Utep, was born on ...
Just a reminder that Staff work diligently to reinforce the oppressive police state environment that is Tuluk. It does not rely solely on "a few PCs". We spend quite a bit of time making sure the body politic of Tuluk reacts appropriately to events within the Gol. You will likely not visibly see many of these effects.
I even disappear NPCs that get out of line.
Quote from: Wug on April 25, 2013, 07:23:01 PM
I even disappear NPCs that get out of line.
Except that juggler... he's got connections.
If there's one thing I learned about Tuluk, it's that nobody is above disappearing. Your "power," as you perceive it, only determines how much leeway you're granted. Make the correct mistake, and you'll find yourself like all the other suckers.
Quote from: Kismetic on April 25, 2013, 07:46:31 PM
If there's one thing I learned about Tuluk, it's that nobody is above disappearing. Your "power," as you perceive it, only determines how much leeway you're granted. Make the correct mistake, and you'll find yourself like all the other suckers.
Normally I'd agree.
But that juggler man...
That juggler.
;D
To play devil's advocate for a moment, there is a problem that I percieve with Tuluk. I think it's summed up by this:
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 08, 2012, 04:12:05 AM
(http://ragegenerator.com/uploads/122890.png?1352365839)
I think this is a problem everywhere in Armageddon, just a byproduct of the PC microcosm really. I in no way think it's unique to Tuluk, or even started in Tuluk.
But in Tuluk, with the patron/partisan layer added on top of regular clan membership ... I have more than once felt like every Joe Blow commoner there at least
thinks they have a literate person they can run and tattle to whenever someone in a bar says something mean to them.
Overall, I just wish that clan leaders everywhere were more dissmissive of the unimportant drama their minions get involved in when they go out drinking.
The above times ten.
You Know, I really have never run into that. I mean, Oh the first part sure, but never any followup...least not on low ranking members.
The only thing I have ever run into is when playing a raider, raiding nobodies out miles and miles from the cities, when all of the sudden the militia/templars from a city state consider you public enemy #1 and Set out to hunt you down. BUT, I have found staff to be more then receptive when they are informed of the situation.
My bet is, they would be just as receptive to a report on the situation in the rage comic as well. That is a major part of the staff job after all, keeping things in the game world reacting in a realistic fashion.
Little digs and snide remarks between low-ranked employees are generally beneath the notice of a clan leader, but in Tuluk, where caste only tells a small part of the story about a person's place in the social structure, and most of the rest of it (where members of one caste are positioned in relation to one another) is based quite a lot on perception, politicking and storytelling, what is beneath notice can vary a lot. What might be innocent ribbing between A and B can be somewhat insulting between A and C. The example in the comic is obviously exaggerated for comedic effect but it does make a cogent point about the kind of very extreme overreaction and sudden escalation that would not be necessary. But that doesn't mean slower-escalating arguments with fewer consequences are not necessary either. If anything they make up a part of those back-room discussions where a part of Tuluki secretive RP happens.
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 26, 2013, 08:58:26 AM
But that doesn't mean slower-escalating arguments with fewer consequences are not necessary either. If anything they make up a part of those back-room discussions where a part of Tuluki secretive RP happens.
To use the comic as the stage for a hypothetical- here is what I'm thinking.
I don't think the comic should end with the girl from Salarr doing nothing. But I don't think it should end with the great merchant house family member sponsored role type guy getting involved either.
I think the girl should way her other low ranking Salarri clan mates, get them to come over, and have a good old fashioned beat down in the bar that the upper crust of society need never be bothered knowing occured in more than a passing conversational capacity.
Maybe that's the end of it.
Maybe the other hunter goes and gets his clannies for payback, and over time the bar braws get more and more heated, eventually someone murders someone else in a back alley,
then the literate folk start to get involved.
Quote from: Wug on April 25, 2013, 07:23:01 PM
I even disappear NPCs that get out of line.
Dat mime...
Quote from: musashi on April 26, 2013, 07:00:23 AM
To play devil's advocate for a moment, there is a problem that I percieve with Tuluk. I think it's summed up by this:
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 08, 2012, 04:12:05 AM
ARMrage comic
I think this is a problem everywhere in Armageddon, just a byproduct of the PC microcosm really. I in no way think it's unique to Tuluk, or even started in Tuluk.
But in Tuluk, with the patron/partisan layer added on top of regular clan membership ... I have more than once felt like every Joe Blow commoner there at least thinks they have a literate person they can run and tattle to whenever someone in a bar says something mean to them.
Overall, I just wish that clan leaders everywhere were more dissmissive of the unimportant drama their minions get involved in when they go out drinking.
Well, here's the thing about Tuluk: it really does depend on the situation. Tuluk is complex and nuanced. As Cutthroat notes (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45373.msg748409.html#msg748409), there's much more to a social encounter than just castes, which are really big bins that have many fine gradations within.
Other considerations beyond caste include:
1) Employment and rank: Templarate or Surif employment being most important
2) Patronage: Templarate or Surif patronage being most important
3) Other known associations with the Faithful and Chosen
4) Public accomplishments: including festival victories or proof of excellence in one's "art"
5) Public embarrassments
6) Longevity
7) Location: public area or private? Which Tuluki faction controls that area?
...To name just a few. For a better sense of the relative impact of just #1 on a social situation, have a look at the Tuluki Social Rank Table (http://old.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html). I've also detailed some other considerations that might come into play in Tuluki social situations in a previous post (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41864.msg630919.html#msg630919).
So what factors might come into play in the aforementioned ARMrage comic where a peon of Clan X insults a peon of Salarr, the peon Salarri then complains to her Salarri Leader PC, who then complains to the Clan X Leader PC, who then reprimands the peon of Clan X?
Well... Is Clan X socially above Salarr or below Salarr (e.g. T'zai Byn vs. Surif house)? Does Clan X have a history of friendship, antagonism, or neutrality with Salarr? What about the history of the Salarri Leader PC with the Clan X Leader PC? What about the Clan X peon, does he have a public history (slayer of magickers and victor at festivals vs. known to have been kicked out of clans before and known to kiss halfbreeds in public)? Is the Salarri PC Leader good buddies with the owners of the bar? Is the Salarri PC Leader good buddies with the Governor of the Qynar where the bar sits?
The answers to all those questions (and more!) will impact how the scene plays out. Maybe Clan X is the an independent merchanty group that's been annoying Salarr for a long time, the Clan X Leader PC recently publicly insulted the Salarri Leader PC, the peon from Clan X is already publicly through to be a doofus, and the Salarri Leader PC is tight with the Governor of the Qynar where the bar sits. In that scenario the Salarri Leader PC might use the seemingly inconsequential bar banter from the peon of Clan X as an excuse to use some of his considerable social advantage (in this scenario) to push around Clan X to get his jollies.
Maybe then the Clan X Leader PC realizes that his clan is outclassed in this social confrontation, so he tells his peon of Clan X to back off before things get worse for them. After all, the Clan X Leader PC has social aspirations and he recalls that:
Quote from: old.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html#status
Within the city of Tuluk, social standing is an important part of day-to-day life. The things done and said by your character can influence your character's social status. As with many things, it is much easier to negatively impact one's status than it is to positively affect it.
So even though the clan leader PCs involved weren't "more dissmissive (sic) of the unimportant drama their minions get involved in when they go out drinking," maybe every PC involved had good reasons for what they did, and it all worked out exactly as it should for Tuluk?
Quote from: musashi on April 26, 2013, 09:11:29 AM
To use the comic as the stage for a hypothetical- here is what I'm thinking.
I don't think the comic should end with the girl from Salarr doing nothing. But I don't think it should end with the great merchant house family member sponsored role type guy getting involved either.
I think the girl should way her other low ranking Salarri clan mates, get them to come over, and have a good old fashioned beat down in the bar that the upper crust of society need never be bothered knowing occured in more than a passing conversational capacity.
Maybe that's the end of it.
Maybe the other hunter goes and gets his clannies for payback, and over time the bar braws get more and more heated, eventually someone murders someone else in a back alley, then the literate folk start to get involved.
I completely disagree here. Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places. After all:
Quote from: old.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html#status
The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.
Others may disagree, but I'd personally call a mob beating "unsubtle." If the scene is to lead to violence, then the proper Tuluki conclusion would be for the piqued Salarri peon PC to hire a licensed assassin to neatly and cleanly kill the offending peon from Clan X.
I understand below the surface Tuluk is all, "Creepy kill you silently and subtly."
I remember a Lirathan templar that caught one of my villains once, and she was so creepy, I remember it to this day. That scene really outlined what Tuluk TRULY is outside of the public eye for me.
I guess Tuluk just isn't my favorite flavor on the surface. On the surface, in the public eye, where the majority of players play, it feels like a Tolkien LOTR village. That's the best way I can explain it. It feels like Gondor on the surface to me.
Allanak feels like Mordor.
Clan leaders must carefully balance between allowing their minions to stand up for themselves, and to involve themselves in their minions' situations, as well as look after their own reputation and organization's standing.
Low-ranked employees and partisans must be careful, because their actions reflect on their employer/patron (which also goes the other way). Knowing just how much social status you get from your boss, and what it allows you to reasonably do and expect from others is very tricky. It is not all based on coded/official rank within your caste (or your boss' rank) but it's also based on how you are viewed by the rest of society. That view, social status, is built on reputation, accomplishments, achievements, skill (not necessarily coded) and so forth. Example: An Apprentice bard could have a much stronger social position than a Seeker bard, based on what was listed above plus potential partisanship arrangements.
Tuluk suffers when the finer aspects of social status are not taken into consideration, but it also prospers on the roleplay and realism level when more people, regarding of their PCs' standing, keep it in mind.
Part of what makes Tuluk difficult but also very entertaining and rewarding, in my opinion.
Quote from: Desertman on April 26, 2013, 11:11:10 AM
I understand below the surface Tuluk is all, "Creepy kill you silently and subtly."
I remember a Lirathan templar that caught one of my villains once, and she was so creepy, I remember it to this day. That scene really outlined what Tuluk TRULY is outside of the public eye for me.
I guess Tuluk just isn't my favorite flavor on the surface. On the surface, in the public eye, where the majority of players play, it feels like a Tolkien LOTR village. That's the best way I can explain it. It feels like Gondor on the surface to me.
Allanak feels like Mordor.
That's fine! We all have preferences and feelings. You should just stop confusing your preferences and feelings for facts about how Tuluk is "easy" or "not hardcore." Those are not facts, they're assertions that are provably false.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 26, 2013, 11:19:34 AM
Quote from: Desertman on April 26, 2013, 11:11:10 AM
I understand below the surface Tuluk is all, "Creepy kill you silently and subtly."
I remember a Lirathan templar that caught one of my villains once, and she was so creepy, I remember it to this day. That scene really outlined what Tuluk TRULY is outside of the public eye for me.
I guess Tuluk just isn't my favorite flavor on the surface. On the surface, in the public eye, where the majority of players play, it feels like a Tolkien LOTR village. That's the best way I can explain it. It feels like Gondor on the surface to me.
Allanak feels like Mordor.
That's fine! We all have preferences and feelings. You should just stop confusing your preferences and feelings for facts about how Tuluk is "easy" or "not hardcore." Those are not facts, they're assertions that are provably false.
Gondor is easy compared to Mordor.
Also:
Quote from: Desertman on April 23, 2013, 11:57:07 AM
I have always felt this way...
Allanak = Hard-mode.
Tuluk = Vacation-mode.
I never stated it was a fact. I always stated it was how I felt.
Easy there silky-tree-hugger, I'm not bashing your pyramid.
Dat GDB, srs business.
I'm too lazy to quite. People sai a lot of good stuff about balancing interference from on high. I'm not sure anyone has spoken about individual specifics. I believe that how far you're willing to extend yourself for s minion depends not just on all the external factors mentioned above (and I'm not minimizing those) but also on the employee. If your employee is an ass, a source of annoyance or an under performer of higher rank you might be more than happy to see them hang themselves on their own petard. If you're a worthless piece of crap you might want to keep your whining to a minimum.
Conversely, you might extend yourself for that recruit with the potential and diligent work ethic. Especially, if he doesn't seem the sort to have started the trouble.
If I was a clan leader, my newbies would have to sink or swim, and they'd be too terrified to approach me about their petty drama for fear that I'd remove their fingers for wasting my time.
Maybe I should app that Kadian. :T
I don't know that I've encountered that particular instance in Tuluk, by the way. There is a lot of dramatics between party (and partisan) lines, but people are expected to handle their own shitcock, so to speak.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 26, 2013, 11:02:03 AM
I completely disagree here. Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places. After all:
Quote from: old.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html#status
The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.
Others may disagree, but I'd personally call a mob beating "unsubtle." If the scene is to lead to violence, then the proper Tuluki conclusion would be for the piqued Salarri peon PC to hire a licensed assassin to neatly and cleanly kill the offending peon from Clan X.
Not all areas of Tuluk are so well cultured and refined. If one stands around in certain taverns and certain Qynar, the environment echos are anything but subtle. I am working off the assumption that if you're hanging out in a rough and tumble area, being rough and tumble is acceptable. The virtual environment certainly is.
I also totally disagree with the notion that all violence in Tuluk is binary: nothing or straight to hiring an assassin to kill someone. I think there is a large level of gradation there as well, especially in the city's rougher areas. And I feel fairly comfortable that the virtual world available to experience IG at this moment supports that.
I think taking the way people behave in the Poet's Circle and applying it across the entire span of the city can be just as bad as taking the way people behave in the Arebtorum of Allanak and trying to drop it into the Gaj.
But anyway, more the actual meta point I was making, is that I would prefer low ranking PC's to draw upon the strength of their organazation by first drawing upon the other low ranking PC's in the clan around them for support at that level, rather than taking things as high as they can short of wishing up for staff to animate senior clan members as a go to move.
Quote from: Jeshin on April 24, 2013, 10:51:12 PM
Just to chime in here... Having played heavily in Tuluk. If you believe that the people 'cleaning you up' or 'helping you out' or 'training you' or 'investing in you' are doing it to be nice. You are dead wrong. I have literally never seen anyone do it without some kind of return. Often you will see hunter types doing it to helpless looking PCs who say they're good at artisan stuff. You clothe and bathe this little artisan. Then you pump them to produce finished products out of your animal parts for big sid. If they run off on you, whatever you're out a few small and maybe you kill them later.
If you're an artisan merchanty type and you need shit from outside the walls. You go out shopping your local watering hole and dump for a grubby looking hunter whose wearing their shirt for armor. You throw some leather on them, point them in the direction of what you need. All of a sudden you're once again rolling in materials and sid.
Just because people 'help' you doesn't mean it's easy mode. It means YOU ARE BEING USED.
Edit - For merchants using hunter types. The turnover rate is really high, so if you could collect the bloodied and soiled gear after they die. It's more cost effective to give it to the next statistic you 'help'... That's pretty grim to me.
Big yes. A lot of shady types take in new shady types and help them, why? They want these shady types to do the crap they can't get caught doing. It's all about using people. It's just more subtle in Tuluk then it is in Allanak. But just cause you can't see the leash on your throat, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Edit: And just because someone is smiling and being nice to you in public, doesn't mean they aren't robbing your apartment, picking your pocket, and plotting your assasination in private. Crocodile smiles my friends.
Quote from: Desertman on April 26, 2013, 11:33:28 AM
Gondor is easy compared to Mordor.
That's just your
feeling, man.
My feeling is that Mordor is a boring one dimensional place where everyone is "evil" cuz Rawr! That's cool from a hack 'n slashy D&D or videogame perspective where the bad guys are all ugly, they all worship some evil god, and they all
literally have "evil" written under "alignment" on their character sheets.
My preference, though, is for more nuance and complexity such that everything that looks nice isn't necessarily nice underneath and where the threats don't only come from the big ugly evil beasties but also from those who are supposed to be trusted and obeyed. Someplace like, well, Gondor during the War of the Ring for instance. Other examples would be much of the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin, and historical fiction such as the Masters of Rome series about late Republican and early Imperial Rome by Colleen McCullough.
Quote from: Desertman on April 26, 2013, 11:33:28 AM
Also:
Quote from: Desertman on April 23, 2013, 11:57:07 AM
I have always felt this way...
Allanak = Hard-mode.
Tuluk = Vacation-mode.
I never stated it was a fact. I always stated it was how I felt.
You NEVER stated it was a fact? "Never" is a long time. Hmm. Oh! Here's
another post of yours...
Quote from: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44557.msg722426.html#msg722426
You ever really TRIED to be gritty and foul in Tuluk?
I have with a few characters.
Two of them resulted in Lirathan templars actually pulling me aside and giving me etiquette lessons.
One of them gave me pants.
Both times I was never in a fancy tavern. Both times the templar wasn't even present. My naughty verbal gritty exploits actually resulted in me being reported to authorities, and authorities ACTUALLY responded, AND there weren't even any threats, I was just being foul.
Now, say the same things (and I have) in the Gaj in Allanak, no one notices.
Let's be honest. Tuluk is easy mode. My Allanaki characters go to Tuluk to vacation.
Let's be honest, dat GDB... turns out to have more than 2 days worth of old posts.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 26, 2013, 03:55:59 PM
Quote from: Desertman on April 26, 2013, 11:33:28 AM
Gondor is easy compared to Mordor.
That's just your feeling, man. My feeling is that Mordor is a boring one dimensional place where everyone is "evil" cuz Rawr! That's cool from a hack 'n slashy D&D or videogame perspective where the bad guys are all ugly, they all worship some evil god, and they all literally have "evil" written under "alignment" on their character sheets.
My preference, though, is for more nuance and complexity such that everything that looks nice isn't necessarily nice underneath and where the threats don't only come from the big ugly evil beasties but also from those who are supposed to be trusted and obeyed. Someplace like, well, Gondor during the War of the Ring for instance. Other examples would be much of the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin, and historical fiction such as the Masters of Rome series about late Republican and early Imperial Rome by Colleen McCullough.
Quote from: Desertman on April 26, 2013, 11:33:28 AM
Also:
Quote from: Desertman on April 23, 2013, 11:57:07 AM
I have always felt this way...
Allanak = Hard-mode.
Tuluk = Vacation-mode.
I never stated it was a fact. I always stated it was how I felt.
You NEVER stated it was a fact? "Never" is a long time. Hmm. Oh! Here's another post of yours...
Quote from: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44557.msg722426.html#msg722426
You ever really TRIED to be gritty and foul in Tuluk?
I have with a few characters.
Two of them resulted in Lirathan templars actually pulling me aside and giving me etiquette lessons.
One of them gave me pants.
Both times I was never in a fancy tavern. Both times the templar wasn't even present. My naughty verbal gritty exploits actually resulted in me being reported to authorities, and authorities ACTUALLY responded, AND there weren't even any threats, I was just being foul.
Now, say the same things (and I have) in the Gaj in Allanak, no one notices.
Let's be honest. Tuluk is easy mode. My Allanaki characters go to Tuluk to vacation.
Let's be honest, dat GDB... turns out to have more than 2 days worth of old posts.
Amended,
I haven't stated in the last five months that Tuluk was "easy" as a fact.
You got me, five months ago I told a inside joke aimed at someone else that you aren't "in the know" about, obviously, and then made a statement I knew would get a rise out of them for chuckles. They played a Lirathan templar, I know them IRL, they love Tuluk (they are the ones who gave me the referenced pants ;) ), the easy mode comment was intended to give them and I both a laugh.
Is there anything else you need me to explain to you? If you want, I will let you win the GDB at this point.
Quote from: Desertman on April 26, 2013, 04:33:36 PM
Amended,
I haven't stated in the last five months that Tuluk was "easy" as a fact.
You got me, five months ago I told a inside joke aimed at someone else that you aren't "in the know" about, obviously, and then made a statement I knew would get a rise out of them for chuckles. They played a Lirathan templar, I know them IRL, they love Tuluk (they are the ones who gave me the referenced pants ;) ), the easy mode comment was intended to give them and I both a laugh.
Is there anything else you need me to explain to you? If you want, I will let you win the GDB at this point.
Thanks for asking! Yes, you could explain why you feel that it's a problem that in Tuluk PCs can do "bad things" such as bribery, theft, extortion, and killing and yet not be criminals. Would you feel that Tuluk would be fun for you if bribery, theft, extortion, and killing still remained legal but, say, wearing green were made illegal in Tuluk? Could you get your "I bow to no man!" fix from your PC wearing green in Tuluk?
I don't think I could win the GDB, not with such stiff competition. I mean, you post over 20 times (!) more frequently than I do, for starters. I lack focus too, cuz unless prompted I don't think about winning the GDB and I certainly don't mention it frequently in my posts, or how "Dat GDB" is "srs business." I don't even have one lousy inside joke that I share with the "in the know" cool kid GDBers! Unfortunately for me, the evidence speaks for itself. Thanks for the consideration, though!
Also random: With the polarities surrounding the north and the south out of character, I would think we would see more wars IG.
I hope with the increased population, which appears to still be on the rise, we might see some more large scale conflicts on the table. :)
I'm not saying Allanak sent those red-tabards running in the Copper War, but I am saying, get back to your land of rainbows and bunnies before you get your neatly manicured hand slapped again for trying to reach into Poppa-Tek's cookie jar.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 26, 2013, 05:01:46 PM
Quote from: Desertman on April 26, 2013, 04:33:36 PM
Amended,
I haven't stated in the last five months that Tuluk was "easy" as a fact.
You got me, five months ago I told a inside joke aimed at someone else that you aren't "in the know" about, obviously, and then made a statement I knew would get a rise out of them for chuckles. They played a Lirathan templar, I know them IRL, they love Tuluk (they are the ones who gave me the referenced pants ;) ), the easy mode comment was intended to give them and I both a laugh.
Is there anything else you need me to explain to you? If you want, I will let you win the GDB at this point.
Thanks for asking! Yes, you could explain why you feel that it's a problem that in Tuluk PCs can do "bad things" such as bribery, theft, extortion, and killing and yet not be criminals. Would you feel that Tuluk would be fun for you if bribery, theft, extortion, and killing still remained legal but, say, wearing green were made illegal in Tuluk? Could you get your "I bow to no man!" fix from your PC wearing green in Tuluk?
I don't think I could win the GDB, not with such stiff competition. I mean, you post over 20 times (!) more frequently than I do, for starters. I lack focus too, cuz unless prompted I don't think about winning the GDB and I certainly don't mention it frequently in my posts, or how "Dat GDB" is "srs business." I don't even have one lousy inside joke that I share with the "in the know" cool kid GDBers! Unfortunately for me, the evidence speaks for itself. Thanks for the consideration, though!
Take a step back...breathe...I'm starting to worry about you. :-\
A global war sounds about the most boring thing imaginable. Maybe if we had a million subscriptions, like WoW. Instead, it's forty characters dead in a week from an unimpressive conflict that highlights a few dull points, and lets a few tools be more massive tools for a brief moment in time. Then they put down their swords again, and go back to their grebbing. The tools go back to their respective homes and brag about the dozen or so people that died, and wow, what a war you had with those other guys.
Snore
I didn't want to have to do this.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/lauramars/mj_popcorn.gif:original)
I like wars because some of the best relationships I have ever forged with other characters in game came from fighting along side them and surviving amazing odds with them.
I've seen it several times in game. You take two people who don't like each other. Let them survive some event where maybe a few people die but they make it out alive together.
Instant lifelong friendships.
I love that.
Oh, I also like being able to shout "Shitcock!" in the middle of battle, because I'm from Allanak, and that's what I do. Deal with it.
I think when some Boss of a Clan (not a Sarge.. but a leader), gets involved in some petty commoner thing between two PCs (one obviously affiliated with the clan).. It completely quells roleplay on the small, gritty, street level scale...
We need more Lannister's hands being cut off, as opposed to Daddy coming to save the day over petty, prideful, ego affairs..
IMO.
Shitcocking with your brothers in battle. Very Spartan!
I do like surviving big RPTs with my homies. As a whole, we can do better than another stale war. Something more to scale with what we can affect in the game world.
Quote from: Dakota on April 26, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
I think when some Boss of a Clan (not a Sarge.. but a leader), gets involved in some petty commoner thing between two PCs (one obviously affiliated with the clan).. It completely quells roleplay on the small, gritty, street level scale...
We need more Lannister's hands being cut off, as opposed to Daddy coming to save the day over petty, prideful, ego affairs..
IMO.
I think this goes back to a previous point I made in another post recently.
It probably has to do with people enjoying playing "heroes", even on a political level. "You insulted my minion, I shalt stand up for him/her and champion their cause!"
Also, people just like to be involved in the mix, from top to bottom.
QuoteI'm not saying Allanak sent those red-tabards running in the Copper War, but I am saying, get back to your land of rainbows and bunnies before you get your neatly manicured hand slapped again for trying to reach into Poppa-Tek's cookie jar.
Now that one is funny...specially when you consider who is showing off the copper.
Poppa-tek got an empty cookie jar and is welcome to it.
Quote from: X-D on April 26, 2013, 05:32:06 PM
QuoteI'm not saying Allanak sent those red-tabards running in the Copper War, but I am saying, get back to your land of rainbows and bunnies before you get your neatly manicured hand slapped again for trying to reach into Poppa-Tek's cookie jar.
Now that one is funny...specially when you consider who is showing off the copper.
Poppa-tek got an empty cookie jar and is welcome to it.
What does Tektrollness care about some metal? He is the Lord of Everything. The bringer of the dragon's flame to temper the pathetic and the weak in the heat of his omnipotent scorn. The one true King shits copper bells every morning, 8:30AM sharp.
Now step off, before Poppa-Tek has to start shitcocking you.
(Yes, I used that as a verb, I don't know what it means, but I have no regrets.)
The fact that so many have a (different) opinion of Tuluk and feel it necessary to reply to this thread, contrary to Nak where everything seems to be working fine, speaks for itself.
Quote from: Desertman on April 26, 2013, 05:19:14 PM
I like wars because some of the best relationships I have ever forged with other characters in game came from fighting along side them and surviving amazing odds with them.
I've seen it several times in game. You take two people who don't like each other. Let them survive some event where maybe a few people die but they make it out alive together.
Instant lifelong friendships.
I love that.
Oh, I also like being able to shout "Shitcock!" in the middle of battle, because I'm from Allanak, and that's what I do. Deal with it.
I do love me some war. For about the same reason. Except the "shitcock" thing. I make better curses.
Quote from: Iiyola on April 26, 2013, 07:12:02 PM
The fact that so many have a (different) opinion of Tuluk and feel it necessary to reply to this thread, contrary to Nak where everything seems to be working fine, speaks for itself.
I suspect this stems more for bad luck, than anything. Sometimes when you play in an area and there aren't amazing roleplayers around you to bring a place to life, it can feel stale, and very surface-valued. So people don't get that in an area of the game, and decide to not risk playing there, and instead go somewhere more familiar where they've run into good roleplayers before.
I certainly know I've never played in Tuluk enough to get a proper feel for what it's -really- like. That basically just keeps me from playing there altogether. I know how to have fun in 'nak. I'm used to it, and I'm more willing to push through the stale times and wait for some better roleplayers to show up around me.
I durno, there, fella, last time I played in Allanak, people in the Gaj were too stuck up to talk, some dude forced a reaction on my character about his amazing sparkly eyes, and people were open about kanking gemmers. Maybe it's changed in the last year, teehee
I think one could argue that we are arguing about Tuluk not Nak because nothing is wrong, but I think that is a very surface assessment.
Nak wasn't taken over.
Nak wasn't completely rebuilt.
Nak didn't have new docs written from scratchm ten or so years in, completely revamping the way game play takes place.
I think there may be problems with interpretation or with vision, but the alternative is to give up on it completely and have no discernible differences, or make changes that only some of the people will like and try to retcon them in.
Or we can work with what we've got and in time we'll do better with it or things will naturally evolve.
I don't think Tuluk is broken. I think it's harder to do right. I also think it's almost impossible to get everyone in a straight line all facing the same way at the same time in this sort of environment.
Finally, I think if there are things that don't work in Tuluk that they should be considered as individual points rather than grouping everything together and saying Tuluk doesn't work. Because you can go down a list and fix things one at a time far more easily than trying to fix an entire city.
Barzalene is wise.
Quote from: Dakota on April 26, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
I think when some Boss of a Clan (not a Sarge.. but a leader), gets involved in some petty commoner thing between two PCs (one obviously affiliated with the clan).. It completely quells roleplay on the small, gritty, street level scale...
We need more Lannister's hands being cut off, as opposed to Daddy coming to save the day over petty, prideful, ego affairs..
IMO.
Hey, I want more "Lannister's hands being cut off" too! I've already posted in this very thread how I like the "RP" found in the Song of Ice and Fire series. But... Have you read the books or been watching the show, though? Cuz if you're upset about "Boss" PCs getting overly involved in minor incidents then you actually don't want more "Lannister's hands being cut off." That's a scenario where the literal "Daddy" is heavily concerned and "Daddy" happens to be
kinda important. Like more important to the world of ASoIaF than 99.99% of all PCs are in Zalanthas. In the most recent television episode he even explicitly makes the point of how actively concerned he is. Daddy doesn't fail to "save the day" because it's beneath him, but cuz he's unable to. Also (spoiler alert!): Daddy's minions don't treat the hand cutter super nicely (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Vargo_Hoat#A_Feast_for_Crows) in the books.
So yep, we agree that the "Lannister's hands being cut off" scenario is a succinct illustration of how it should work in Tuluk. Piss off the wrong people, and Daddy gets involved. Especially if Daddy is petty, prideful, and egotistic... which describes the vast majority of important characters in ASoIaF as well as most noble and templar PCs in both Tuluk and Allanak. If you want to survive as a "rough and tumble" hand cutter in Tuluk then you gotta be a
little more careful about... well, I've already posted some of the considerations that I think are important (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45373.msg748419.html#msg748419).
I like it when you say Daddy.
After six pages of this, I'm calling for a bit of a change.
Can we talk about what we feel is wrong/difficult/not working in OUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, to either get people to assist with our perceptions, or help figure out just what isn't working?
I'm getting -real- annoyed at the few people who 'get' Tuluk, telling the rest of us to "get over it". I don't want to get over my issues with Tuluk. I want to understand it, or explain what is difficult for me to understand, so that we can have a real discussion. Without certain people feeling like they need to get defensive.
Please?
I prefer discussion to debate.
It's a good idea.
Quote from: Iiyola on April 26, 2013, 07:12:02 PM
The fact that so many have a (different) opinion of Tuluk and feel it necessary to reply to this thread, contrary to Nak where everything seems to be working fine, speaks for itself.
I never have thought of this.
That is very interesting actually.
Or it's because this is a thread about Tuluk - not Allanak.
It's all part of the plan:
Topic - Stay on it.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 26, 2013, 09:38:54 PM
Quote from: Dakota on April 26, 2013, 05:28:11 PM
I think when some Boss of a Clan (not a Sarge.. but a leader), gets involved in some petty commoner thing between two PCs (one obviously affiliated with the clan).. It completely quells roleplay on the small, gritty, street level scale...
We need more Lannister's hands being cut off, as opposed to Daddy coming to save the day over petty, prideful, ego affairs..
IMO.
Hey, I want more "Lannister's hands being cut off" too! I've already posted in this very thread how I like the "RP" found in the Song of Ice and Fire series. But... Have you read the books or been watching the show, though? Cuz if you're upset about "Boss" PCs getting overly involved in minor incidents then you actually don't want more "Lannister's hands being cut off." That's a scenario where the literal "Daddy" is heavily concerned and "Daddy" happens to be kinda important. Like more important to the world of ASoIaF than 99.99% of all PCs are in Zalanthas. In the most recent television episode he even explicitly makes the point of how actively concerned he is. Daddy doesn't fail to "save the day" because it's beneath him, but cuz he's unable to. Also (spoiler alert!): Daddy's minions don't treat the hand cutter super nicely (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Vargo_Hoat#A_Feast_for_Crows) in the books.
So yep, we agree that the "Lannister's hands being cut off" scenario is a succinct illustration of how it should work in Tuluk. Piss off the wrong people, and Daddy gets involved. Especially if Daddy is petty, prideful, and egotistic... which describes the vast majority of important characters in ASoIaF as well as most noble and templar PCs in both Tuluk and Allanak. If you want to survive as a "rough and tumble" hand cutter in Tuluk then you gotta be a little more careful about... well, I've already posted some of the considerations that I think are important (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45373.msg748419.html#msg748419).
For the record, this is a very inappropriate analogy. Jamie Lynaster is the son of the HEAD of a noble house hold.
Yeah. Cut the hand off the child of a noble house's head hancho NPC and the full weight of that clan will bear down on you like a vengeance. No one disagrees. We just havent ever been talking about anything remotely resembling such a hypothetical. Jamie is by no stretch of the imagination a low ranking anybody.
Quote from: Riev on April 26, 2013, 10:23:08 PM
Can we talk about what we feel is wrong/difficult/not working in OUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, to either get people to assist with our perceptions, or help figure out just what isn't working?
I'm getting -real- annoyed at the few people who 'get' Tuluk, telling the rest of us to "get over it". I don't want to get over my issues with Tuluk. I want to understand it, or explain what is difficult for me to understand, so that we can have a real discussion. Without certain people feeling like they need to get defensive.
Please?
I really wish I could find the thread where the new changes for Tuluk were introduced.. It has to be somewhere on the old board, someone please find it..
We are playing in a system that is nothing like what it should have been, I feel like Tuluk was an experimentation that failed and we are still using that same failed system years later.
There's just not enough players playing in Tuluk to make the vision of what it was supposed to be like compared to what it is today.
Allanak is part of the old system and hasn't changed much over the years, the system works, it's simple and efficient.
Tuluk requires a way of thinking that is alien to most players and requires too many roles being played in it to make it work, but since I wrote about it just a couple of days ago and it was completely ignored by the usual Tuluki cheerleading, I wont' waste my breath again.
I don't know. I've always seen Allanak as really straightforward, and Tuluk as like, twisty and confusing.
Let me explain as best I can via a sample scenario.
"Random Local Elf gives merchant of Surif House the finger."
Nak
Merchant complains to Aide or directly to Noble family member if they are favored enough and/or kanking the Noble. Noble has the elf thrown in a pit or otherwise murder him in some public fashion because, fuck elves. And because, hey, that Noble House hasn't executed a dirty necker for insubordination in weeks. Plus Blue robe over there owed them a favour anyway.
Tuluk
Merchant complains to Patron Chosen or GMH Leader player. Chosen or Leader player goes to Faithful, gets permission to detain him or asks for him to be detained. Chosen or Leader player might investigate the elf first to see if he has any connections to people they don't want to piss off before axing him.
Couple RL days later, Elf is detained by Legionaires, or the Faithful, or the Surif/GM House or some combination of the above
Elf disappears a while, no one is sure what happened to him, but people don't talk about it openly much, though if you know the right people you might hear that he got in shit for irritating Merchant Amos of Awesomehouse
Suddenly, Elf comes back, he's more quiet lately, don't see him as much around. You wonder if he didn't give buddy the finger after all or if he bribed his way out of dying.
You overhear someone murmuring about how he pleaded for his life or something, and a Templar told a story about some time in the past where such a situation was met with a second chance so they gave him one, because, insert some reason you will never know and the story you will never hear.
RL weeks later, Elf fucks up again later, pisses some Surif House hunter off this time, but that hunter doesn't have the clout to actually do anything about it like that other merchant, their Chosen Lord or Lady or Leader Player isn't really all that partial to them, so this hunter take matters into his own hands and goes to murder that elf themselves out in the woods. He botches it, the elf flees and goes into hiding again. He plays off peak mostly now.
But, as a result of that, someone who knows that elf in passing talks about how he almost got ganked by Amos the Hunter in a bar one day, and someone who reports to the Lirathan order gets wind of it, tells a Faithful Lady who gets PISSED that this hunter dude attempted to commit an unlicensed murder so she asks him to come have a chat and the hunter is never seen again but no one ever talks about it because it's just not something you talk about.
Then the mate of the dead hunter who only half knows, but assumes she knows, what happened after her hunter guy never came home from his meeting with Faithful Lady Doomsbane, starts saving up her sids and buys a contract on the elf from that same Faithful Lady who murdered her man, and probably gives her a donation to show how she trusts the judgement of the Faithful and is sorry for her mates actions and doesn't want them to reflect on her.
Some Templarate assassin ganks the Elf a month later when he least expects it and no one knows it. He just stops showing up at his normal times and everything goes on as usual.
In my observance it's sort of more like what greasygemo says, but not quite. Here's my interpretation of what *I* observe:
Elf pisses you off. You tell your clan leader. Within a few RL days, you both conclude that it's okay to watch Elf and see if he is pissing other people off too. Meanwhile, you hire a bard to make fun of the elf.
A few weeks later, you see the elf is still pissing people off, but now he's a few weeks more powerful in terms of coded skill. Whatever he can do - he can now do much more efficiently.
At this point, you go back to your clan leader, who tells you a few RL days after that, that it's okay if the elf disappears as long as your clan's name is kept out of it.
So you try to find a middle-man - some kind of agent who can speak with the templars on your behalf, without getting you or your clan's name invovled. This takes around 2 RL months. Meanwhile, elf is fully maxed on his basic skills, has branched all of his secondary skills, has mastered some of them, and has branched a few of his tertiary skills. You're dealing with a mighty powerful elf now.
FINALLY - you find that middle-man, who now has to communicate with a templar. This takes another RL month. Meanwhile, Mister Elf (who now gets to be called Mister because he is so powerful, and rich, and scary, and annoying) is pissing a whole lot of people off, and no one has done anything about it, because everyone has spent the last four months TALKING about doing something about it.
The middle man FINALLY gets in touch with a templar - and you find yourself on the other side of the mantis head the next time you log in - because Mister Elf was powerful and rich enough to hire an assassin to kill you first.
Silly Lizzie. You didn't know you can pay extra to keep your name off contracts you take out on people? Should have read the docs and saved yourself 3 RL months :P
Quote from: Lizzie on April 26, 2013, 11:32:35 PM
In my observance it's sort of more like what greasygemo says, but not quite. Here's my interpretation of what *I* observe:
Elf pisses you off. You tell your clan leader. Within a few RL days, you both conclude that it's okay to watch Elf and see if he is pissing other people off too. Meanwhile, you hire a bard to make fun of the elf.
A few weeks later, you see the elf is still pissing people off, but now he's a few weeks more powerful in terms of coded skill. Whatever he can do - he can now do much more efficiently.
At this point, you go back to your clan leader, who tells you a few RL days after that, that it's okay if the elf disappears as long as your clan's name is kept out of it.
So you try to find a middle-man - some kind of agent who can speak with the templars on your behalf, without getting you or your clan's name invovled. This takes around 2 RL months. Meanwhile, elf is fully maxed on his basic skills, has branched all of his secondary skills, has mastered some of them, and has branched a few of his tertiary skills. You're dealing with a mighty powerful elf now.
FINALLY - you find that middle-man, who now has to communicate with a templar. This takes another RL month. Meanwhile, Mister Elf (who now gets to be called Mister because he is so powerful, and rich, and scary, and annoying) is pissing a whole lot of people off, and no one has done anything about it, because everyone has spent the last four months TALKING about doing something about it.
The middle man FINALLY gets in touch with a templar - and you find yourself on the other side of the mantis head the next time you log in - because Mister Elf was powerful and rich enough to hire an assassin to kill you first.
That OR, the elf just dies to some wilderness npc's and is never heard from again.
I wouldn't mind seeing a poll with these questions (if someone agrees with this idea then feel free to make the poll or +1 this post and I could do it later):
Please select which of the following best describes your PCs with regards to having the six-pronged star and blue and purple inked band:
1. The majority of my PCs do not have Tuluki tattoos, but I also enjoy Tuluki-inked PCs
2. The majority of my PCs do not have Tuluki inks, and I do not enjoy playing PCs with them and do not plan to soon
3. The majority of my PCs have been Tuluki-inked, but I also enjoy non-inked PCs
4. The majority of my PCs have been Tuluki-inked, and I do not enjoy playing PCs without them and do not plan to soon
5. I can't say which I play more, but I enjoy having Tuluki inks
6. I can't say which I play more, but I do not enjoy having Tuluki inks
My hypothesis is that there will be a lot of 2's, very few 1's (allanaki players will tend to disdain playing as Inked), whereas the 3's and 4's would be more evenly split (Tuluki players don't have as strong a preference).
Between five and six, I think there will be more sixes.
Someone explain to the noobs how Tuluk works. :P
Also, if you're Tuluki born, you should have the inks. Or a good reason why you don't, and are participating in that particular metagame. By example, "Oh, I am a citizen of Tuluk, Faithful Lady, I was born right over there in the Warrens." Two days later ... "Oh, no, Lord Templar. I've never even been to Tuluk!"
Ah, yes, thanks Kismetic, I guess I should have explained that in the post. We do have quite a lot of new players lately.
Quote from: Kismetic on April 27, 2013, 12:14:08 AM
Someone explain to the noobs how Tuluk works. :P
Also, if you're Tuluki born, you should have the inks. Or a good reason why you don't, and are participating in that particular metagame. By example, "Oh, I am a citizen of Tuluk, Faithful Lady, I was born right over there in the Warrens." Two days later ... "Oh, no, Lord Templar. I've never even been to Tuluk!"
The fact that there hasn't been any real new Chosen Lords or Ladies of note in the last three years except for the two that have been there forever now (and I have absolutely nothing bad to say about them, these guys are geniuses!) should show you that many of us, even though we've played in Tuluk for HOURS and DAYS and YEARS are all a bunch of "clueless noobs" as you say. Most of the ones I've seen end up storing within a month, and that's being generous.
When's the last time you saw a new Faithful Lady as well?
The HEART of Tuluk is all about the Faithful Ladies and we barely ever see any PCs playing them anymore.
I'm of the opinion that you only need one very good Lirathan, and a couple of Jihaens. The city runs just fine on that. There's enough commoner peons to get out and crack skulls, usually.
I admit, it's not perfect, but I've seen Tuluk in stages of awesome activity. You'd never have a hard time finding someone active, and this was before the Gungan insurgence of noobs. From all I could gather, Allanak was a wasteland of stubborn vets, and die-hard diehards, during that time. You couldn't pay me to play in Allanak, then. And yet, there seems to be a constant theme in this thread of "I won't do it, NEVAR!" and "I don't understand, so, logically, you should make it betta."
Quote from: Kismetic on April 27, 2013, 01:15:47 AM
I admit, it's not perfect, but I've seen Tuluk in stages of awesome activity. You'd never have a hard time finding someone active, and this was before the Gungan insurgence of noobs. From all I could gather, Allanak was a wasteland of stubborn vets, and die-hard diehards, during that time. You couldn't pay me to play in Allanak, then. And yet, there seems to be a constant theme in this thread of "I won't do it, NEVAR!" and "I don't understand, so, logically, you should make it betta."
Just for the record, 90% of my characters have been played in Tuluk in the past, and in the last two years, I must have spent hundreds of hours on a single character who spent 99% of his time in Tuluk, so I'm not just speaking out of my ass, I think.
I really want to make Tuluk a better place, but I just think it won't work the way it's going now and it hasn't worked for a long while now.
I think some roles should be looked over again and made a -little- easier to play and enjoy for a wider group of players.
Again, you just have to look at the number of roles that are constantly opened up for Tuluk and how quickly these people end up storing, you can't just keep throwing roles hoping that you'll finally find someone that'll stick with it.
I don't know what it's like in Allanak, I can't tell you if roles offered are stored just as quickly as they are in Tuluk, but I have a feeling that they are not, because there's a bit more freedom and less political-genius and Tuluki encyclopedic knowledge needed to play them.
Quote from: Harmless on April 27, 2013, 12:09:15 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing a poll with these questions (if someone agrees with this idea then feel free to make the poll or +1 this post and I could do it later):
Please select which of the following best describes your PCs with regards to having the six-pronged star and blue and purple inked band:
1. The majority of my PCs do not have Tuluki tattoos, but I also enjoy Tuluki-inked PCs
2. The majority of my PCs do not have Tuluki inks, and I do not enjoy playing PCs with them and do not plan to soon
3. The majority of my PCs have been Tuluki-inked, but I also enjoy non-inked PCs
4. The majority of my PCs have been Tuluki-inked, and I do not enjoy playing PCs without them and do not plan to soon
5. I can't say which I play more, but I enjoy having Tuluki inks
6. I can't say which I play more, but I do not enjoy having Tuluki inks
My hypothesis is that there will be a lot of 2's, very few 1's (allanaki players will tend to disdain playing as Inked), whereas the 3's and 4's would be more evenly split (Tuluki players don't have as strong a preference).
Between five and six, I think there will be more sixes.
I like to play in Tuluk but WITHOUT inks at all. Yeah! There is your hard mode god damn it. I'm a Luirs born random dude, but I think Imma live in your city. How do you like THAT huh? HUH?
Quote from: Malken on April 27, 2013, 01:31:49 AM
Quote from: Kismetic on April 27, 2013, 01:15:47 AM
I admit, it's not perfect, but I've seen Tuluk in stages of awesome activity. You'd never have a hard time finding someone active, and this was before the Gungan insurgence of noobs. From all I could gather, Allanak was a wasteland of stubborn vets, and die-hard diehards, during that time. You couldn't pay me to play in Allanak, then. And yet, there seems to be a constant theme in this thread of "I won't do it, NEVAR!" and "I don't understand, so, logically, you should make it betta."
Just for the record, 90% of my characters have been played in Tuluk in the past, and in the last two years, I must have spent hundreds of hours on a single character who spent 99% of his time in Tuluk, so I'm not just speaking out of my ass, I think.
I really want to make Tuluk a better place, but I just think it won't work the way it's going now and it hasn't worked for a long while now.
I think some roles should be looked over again and made a -little- easier to play and enjoy for a wider group of players.
Again, you just have to look at the number of roles that are constantly opened up for Tuluk and how quickly these people end up storing, you can't just keep throwing roles hoping that you'll finally find someone that'll stick with it.
I don't know what it's like in Allanak, I can't tell you if roles offered are stored just as quickly as they are in Tuluk, but I have a feeling that they are not, because there's a bit more freedom and less political-genius and Tuluki encyclopedic knowledge needed to play them.
Allanak has put out a role call for Templars in December, then February, then March.
We haven't had a northern Templar role call since December.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, I reckon.
Maybe the role calls have been more... subtle? :P
Allanak is my preferred place, but I'd really miss Tuluk if it was gone.
There is often more longevity to Tuluki Templarate roles.
Is there anything else to go over here guys or have we all had our fill of haterade?
I'm sorry, but I have to reach for my lightsaber when people start dissing Tuluk and calling it fluffy bunny and incapable of true grit. I had a long experience there that contradicts that notion.
You haters silly. Y'all can go d-ride Tek, s'cool
Quote from: Malken on April 27, 2013, 01:31:49 AM
I really want to make Tuluk a better place, but I just think it won't work the way it's going now and it hasn't worked for a long while now.
I think some roles should be looked over again and made a -little- easier to play and enjoy for a wider group of players.
Being genuinely curious about what you said, what isn't working and which roles do you think should be reviewed and made a little easier?
I know you've played a lot in Tuluk, but have you tried to "be the change"? I'm not saying there's a guaranteed success, or that it's even possible in some cases, but it's worth considering.
If you're talking about sponsored roles like nobles and templars being too difficult, I don't think that's the whole truth. There's a lot of reasons behind storage of such PCs that aren't necessarily unique to Tuluk.
Quote from: Eurynomos on April 27, 2013, 04:45:06 AM
There is often more longevity to Tuluki Templarate roles.
Is there anything else to go over here guys or have we all had our fill of haterade?
I'm curious as to whether or not there is more longevity in Tuluk period, not just Templarate.
Quote from: Malken on April 27, 2013, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: Kismetic on April 27, 2013, 12:14:08 AM
Someone explain to the noobs how Tuluk works. :P
Also, if you're Tuluki born, you should have the inks. Or a good reason why you don't, and are participating in that particular metagame. By example, "Oh, I am a citizen of Tuluk, Faithful Lady, I was born right over there in the Warrens." Two days later ... "Oh, no, Lord Templar. I've never even been to Tuluk!"
The fact that there hasn't been any real new Chosen Lords or Ladies of note in the last three years except for the two that have been there forever now (and I have absolutely nothing bad to say about them, these guys are geniuses!) should show you that many of us, even though we've played in Tuluk for HOURS and DAYS and YEARS are all a bunch of "clueless noobs" as you say. Most of the ones I've seen end up storing within a month, and that's being generous.
When's the last time you saw a new Faithful Lady as well?
The HEART of Tuluk is all about the Faithful Ladies and we barely ever see any PCs playing them anymore.
It's hard to say whether what can be the revolving-door nature of Tuluki sponsored roles sometimes, is because Tuluk is confusing, or for some other reasons. I think it's harder to settle into sponsored roles in general, and like palomar said those challenges aren't necessarily unique to Tuluk. I won't go through the staff announcements too heavily, but a cursory glance reveals several Allanaki roll calls mixed in with Tuluki ones. If there is more of one than the other from the past 12 months, the difference is probably very slight.
There is a trove of documentation and help available from staff that anyone entering into any sponsored role would have all the information they can. Tuluk is likely no exception. We know how much public documentation there is for Tuluk in general - imagine the amount of private docs there must be for each individual Surif House, the Faithful Orders, etc. Staff and helpers are around to acclimate people to new roles. New Chosen and Faithful are likely not being sent in blind.
One main problem a sponsored role might run into is finding minions at the outset. New roles finding few or no employees or partisans might simply give up looking and store. This might be more of a problem in Tuluk since there are more clan and patronage options for characters. Add to that the popularity of being independent and sponsored roles have a smaller pool to draw minions from. But as I said somewhere earlier in the thread, we see a lot more players on nowadays. If the trend of 70+ players on at peak every day continues, this issue will soon be less of a problem.
Maybe staff will be willing to (vaguely) share why sponsored roles, especially Tuluk ones, stored in the past year or two. I suspect that most will have done so due to playtimes but a few may have had uniquely Tuluk problems that can help guide this discussion.
One thing I've noticed is that Tulukis are generally very resistant (often refusing) to working with people that aren't inked citizens. I think this creates an unnecessary barrier for roleplay that isolates them. Sure noble houses should only hire inked citizens into their ranks, but that doesn't mean everyone should be as zealous. I also don't think partisans should necessarily need to be inked either.
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 27, 2013, 02:09:38 PM
One thing I've noticed is that Tulukis are generally very resistant (often refusing) to working with people that aren't inked citizens. I think this creates an unnecessary barrier for roleplay that isolates them. Sure noble houses should only hire inked citizens into their ranks, but that doesn't mean everyone should be as zealous. I also don't think partisans should necessarily need to be inked either.
That's not just a situation caused by one side - both are equally at fault.
Partisanship, however, is a defining part of Tuluki culture, and a non-citizen attempting to play one on TV (so to speak) is a direct insult to that culture. A Chosen/Faithful that would take a non-Citizen as a formal partisan is just asking for trouble, at the very least.
EDIT:
While the link still works, http://old.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html - this explains where the system of partisanship came from. It should make why it would be ingrained that non-Citizens attempting to be partisans would be insulting to a Citizen of Tuluk more clear.
PLEASE DO NOT PUT GAME OF THRONE SPOILERS IN THREADS NOT SPECIFICALLY FOR DISCUSSING GAME OF THRONES.
Yes, the caps were necessary.
There is a difference between non-citizens and non-citizens. People from the south will find very few opportunities for work with anyone in Tuluk, but there are various groups of people from the north (especially the lands around Tuluk proper) that are involved in the Tuluki economy to some extent. It's usually as suppliers of raw materials and resources. They won't be hired or offered patronage, though. The same is true for non-citizen tribals, coded and virtual.
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 27, 2013, 02:28:29 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 27, 2013, 02:09:38 PM
One thing I've noticed is that Tulukis are generally very resistant (often refusing) to working with people that aren't inked citizens. I think this creates an unnecessary barrier for roleplay that isolates them. Sure noble houses should only hire inked citizens into their ranks, but that doesn't mean everyone should be as zealous. I also don't think partisans should necessarily need to be inked either.
That's not just a situation caused by one side - both are equally at fault.
Partisanship, however, is a defining part of Tuluki culture, and a non-citizen attempting to play one on TV (so to speak) is a direct insult to that culture. A Chosen/Faithful that would take a non-Citizen as a formal partisan is just asking for trouble, at the very least.
EDIT:
While the link still works, http://old.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html - this explains where the system of partisanship came from. It should make why it would be ingrained that non-Citizens attempting to be partisans would be insulting to a Citizen of Tuluk more clear.
I'm just saying, the A'jinn Academy was the end result of a non-citizen partisan (granted he later did become a citizen, but he -was- a partisan from the south before he was a citizen). Of course citizen partisans would be more prestigious, but the point of partisanship isn't prestige, it's about getting something through a partnership that one can't get done on their own[edited to ad: or at least do it better/more efficiently].
So far as my experience with Tuluki Templars, the -main- reason I stored my Jihaen was because when I was accepted in, there were three staffers watching over us. After a couple of weeks playing, all those staff stopped working, or moved to Legend, and Nyr had to oversee the clan.
I'm not saying I stored because of Nyr, but that he had his own groups to watch, and it felt to me like if I needed something I didn't have the staff support I normally would. By the time I stored, there were three brand new staff that had no idea who I was, never picked me for the role I was in, and I was just over it.
My experience is -incredibly- rare, and there were other factors involved. I can't speak for other players as to why their Templars or Nobles didn't last.
Quotethe A'jinn Academy was the end result of a non-citizen partisan
The old saying
"The exception proves the rule."
It's simply the best example. My point being that Tuluk could stand to be less xenophobic to the point of exclusion.
Quote from: Riev on April 27, 2013, 03:29:37 PM
So far as my experience with Tuluki Templars, the -main- reason I stored my Jihaen was because when I was accepted in, there were three staffers watching over us. After a couple of weeks playing, all those staff stopped working, or moved to Legend, and Nyr had to oversee the clan.
I'm not saying I stored because of Nyr, but that he had his own groups to watch, and it felt to me like if I needed something I didn't have the staff support I normally would. By the time I stored, there were three brand new staff that had no idea who I was, never picked me for the role I was in, and I was just over it.
My experience is -incredibly- rare, and there were other factors involved. I can't speak for other players as to why their Templars or Nobles didn't last.
In a role like Templar...Why exactly did you need constant Staff support, though? IIRC, there is plenty of coded power available to Templars, if they are able to self-start and create their own plots and bring people/organizations into them. The same with T'zai Byn Sergeants. They don't really need a lot of Staff hand-holding, they just go and do. Sponsored roles, especially Templar roles, are not for everyone. They are actually for a very few, that truly get how to do it properly. That's why Nobles/Templars that STICK to the role truly stay around for a long ass time. They get it.
Not trying to bash your Templar Skillz, but it sounds like you weren't really into the PC, and that doesn't seem to have much to do with how many/what Staff are around. If 3 new Staff popped into my clan, i'd be filled with joy! I wouldn't store immediately because they 'don't get me'. So...I guess i'm saying Tuluki Templar may just not be the role for you.
I like the xenophobia. Not that I'm the arbiter of all that is good.
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 27, 2013, 02:09:38 PM
One thing I've noticed is that Tulukis are generally very resistant (often refusing) to working with people that aren't inked citizens. I think this creates an unnecessary barrier for roleplay that isolates them. Sure noble houses should only hire inked citizens into their ranks, but that doesn't mean everyone should be as zealous. I also don't think partisans should necessarily need to be inked either.
That also comes with pride. Tuluki's are very proud of there little police state. They also still remember the occupation. I don't think it makes a barrier to roleplay, I think it makes sense, and provides more roleplay.
I used to think that Tuluk wasn't gritty enough. There was one day when this known elf-lover was giving a well-to-do pc a hard time for something in the Sanctuary, borderline threatening. I was all like, 'what the hell, kick her ass! Tuluk is full of softies' in my head.
Then, I was offered coins to murder her. She was pregnant. My pc did it, then squeezed some extra out of the deal.
Murdering a pregnant woman for coins? Yep, that's gritty enough for me.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 27, 2013, 05:15:08 PM
Quote from: Riev on April 27, 2013, 03:29:37 PM
So far as my experience with Tuluki Templars, the -main- reason I stored my Jihaen was because when I was accepted in, there were three staffers watching over us. After a couple of weeks playing, all those staff stopped working, or moved to Legend, and Nyr had to oversee the clan.
I'm not saying I stored because of Nyr, but that he had his own groups to watch, and it felt to me like if I needed something I didn't have the staff support I normally would. By the time I stored, there were three brand new staff that had no idea who I was, never picked me for the role I was in, and I was just over it.
My experience is -incredibly- rare, and there were other factors involved. I can't speak for other players as to why their Templars or Nobles didn't last.
In a role like Templar...Why exactly did you need constant Staff support, though? IIRC, there is plenty of coded power available to Templars, if they are able to self-start and create their own plots and bring people/organizations into them. The same with T'zai Byn Sergeants. They don't really need a lot of Staff hand-holding, they just go and do. Sponsored roles, especially Templar roles, are not for everyone. They are actually for a very few, that truly get how to do it properly. That's why Nobles/Templars that STICK to the role truly stay around for a long ass time. They get it.
Not trying to bash your Templar Skillz, but it sounds like you weren't really into the PC, and that doesn't seem to have much to do with how many/what Staff are around. If 3 new Staff popped into my clan, i'd be filled with joy! I wouldn't store immediately because they 'don't get me'. So...I guess i'm saying Tuluki Templar may just not be the role for you.
I would explain it, but I already stated earlier that I'm sick of the "you don't get it" and "other people do". I said mine was an isolated case, someone was asking why some Templars store.
I'm really getting annoyed at the "don't get it" remarks. "You don't get it" is not constructive, its destructive to the argument.
Riev, for what it's worth - I -totally- get what you're saying. From the "minion's" perspective - when you send up things to your boss, and your boss doesn't have the coded authority or coded resources to handle a situation - and he passes it up to his clan leader staff member - and that staff member either a) doesn't respond for 2 RL weeks, b) responds with a "Oh, I'm new here, sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about or c) The staffer completely misunderstands the issue, has not monitored any of it, or worse - only monitored a short vignette that depicted something that had nothing to do with the point..and responds in kind.. or d) the clan leader staffer has totally different play times as the players of the PCs involved, who WOULD animate an NPC but can't ever meet up with the PCs involved
then it makes it difficult for the clan leader, and the other PCs involved, to procede with plots and "be the change" (which has become even more cliche than "find out IC").
Like licensing an assassination, when the only lirathan you know, is only available either over the Way or in person for 1 hour per week - and that's the hour you're logging off for the night.
Quote from: Riev on April 26, 2013, 10:23:08 PM
I'm getting -real- annoyed at the few people who 'get' Tuluk, telling the rest of us to "get over it". I don't want to get over my issues with Tuluk. I want to understand it, or explain what is difficult for me to understand, so that we can have a real discussion.
Riev, if you want to understand, you can ask questions.
Quote from: Kismetic on April 27, 2013, 10:15:45 PM
Quote from: Riev on April 26, 2013, 10:23:08 PM
I'm getting -real- annoyed at the few people who 'get' Tuluk, telling the rest of us to "get over it". I don't want to get over my issues with Tuluk. I want to understand it, or explain what is difficult for me to understand, so that we can have a real discussion.
Riev, if you want to understand, you can ask questions.
He has asked. And he has been continually told "get over it" or "find out IC" or "be the change." That is WHY he's frustrated. Because asking questions is sometimes like sitting at the bottom of the ocean and reaching up in an attempt to poke your finger at the moon.
I doubt anyone will change anyone's mind. Even after 8 pages the pro's and the contra's are just as persistent and stubborn.
Quote from: Lizzie on April 27, 2013, 10:47:02 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on April 27, 2013, 10:15:45 PM
Quote from: Riev on April 26, 2013, 10:23:08 PM
I'm getting -real- annoyed at the few people who 'get' Tuluk, telling the rest of us to "get over it". I don't want to get over my issues with Tuluk. I want to understand it, or explain what is difficult for me to understand, so that we can have a real discussion.
Riev, if you want to understand, you can ask questions.
He has asked. And he has been continually told "get over it" or "find out IC" or "be the change." That is WHY he's frustrated. Because asking questions is sometimes like sitting at the bottom of the ocean and reaching up in an attempt to poke your finger at the moon.
I apologize, it's been a weird weekend, but what questions did I miss?
Quote from: Barzalene on April 27, 2013, 05:28:06 PM
I like the xenophobia. Not that I'm the arbiter of all that is good.
I've really tried to stay out of this thread, because I think much of it is based on .. well.. Crap.
Tuluk doesn't suffer from Xenophobia, in fact it's pretty much the opposite. Xenophobia is the fear and hatred of all outsiders. Tuluk as a whole does not suffer from that. There is a whole trading market dedicated to outsiders. Seik, Arabet, Sun Runners, Muark, Jal Tavan are represented, and each have factions inside Tuluk that they are friendly with, and factions that they are not friendly with. Tuluk was founded by tribes who pledged loyalty to the Sun King. The other tribes north of the Shield Wall were never excluded, just not included.
Tuluk gives special privileges to those who are citizens. Opportunities for employment, opportunities for gatherings, etc. So they favor their own, as should be expected. This is not xenophobia, it's benefitting those who have the common background of citizenship. This is common in every society from ancient times to the present.
Tuluk has specified hatreds, which is not the same as Xenophobia. Fear and hatred of magic wielders.. well, yeah, that's pretty well set in stone there. Hatred of Naki's, yeah, but not so much fear, more like a well known animosity which would cause someone to react more harshly to slights than they would otherwise forgive from a fellow Tuluki. There is room for individual hatred for all southerners, but it settles to animosity most of the time. The exact same is true in Allanak about Northerners.
All in all, I'll never understand this hate cycle. I don't find Tuluk hard to "Get".. People there are more guarded with their true intentions than in Allanak. Ok. So what? I've known many sneaky types in Tuluk, both liscensed and not, never seen anyone unable to play through the obstacles just because of a lack of the Rinth to run off to.
The real problem, at least in my opinion, and what seems to drive this conversation so much is the disparity between skills development opportunities. One is a -much- better place to skill up as an outdoorsy type, and the other a somewhat better place to skill as an indoorsy type. It's not about the people or feeling inside the cities.
Quote from: Riev on April 27, 2013, 07:59:24 PM
I'm really getting annoyed at the "don't get it" remarks. "You don't get it" is not constructive, its destructive to the argument.
You more then likely
do get it, you're just being roped into thinking there is more to it then there is.
There is no arcane secret to decoding Tuluk, it isn't some infinitely deep pool of intrigue or the pinnacle of subtly and finesse. No matter what people tell you, it just isn't that complicated.
Read up on the political and social structure, maybe some light reading on what life in a police state is like for some inspiration and get in there and join the utter nonsense that is the current state of Tuluk. In my opinion,
the current vision of Tuluk requires a lot more active players to fill out a much broader range of Tuluki society in order to function properly, so right now there are a lot of holes that lead to situations that are just... awkward and silly, really.
Those situations turn either ridiculous or hilarious, both usually resulting in either death or mudsex.
You can take my word for it, the results of both are uninspired and disappointing.
Quote from: TheBadSeed on April 28, 2013, 01:37:49 AM
The real problem, at least in my opinion, and what seems to drive this conversation so much is the disparity between skills development opportunities. One is a -much- better place to skill up as an outdoorsy type, and the other a somewhat better place to skill as an indoorsy type. It's not about the people or feeling inside the cities.
Nail on head. I totally agree from what I've seen.
Allanak
Skill development and longevity stems from living indoors, learning to deal with people. It's really dangerous and barren outside. A whole host of materials are hard to get. You -have- to have good connections, you have to RP with others to make them, you want wood? You gotta get to know a bynner or a gypsy or someone who cal make it over the desert alive for you or take you. You want spice? You gotta get dirty in the black market. You want to fight or train, you're better off joining up with the Byn or an organization that will outfit you and train you otherwise you'll end up fighting a wayward spider before dusk with your novice scan and your newb weapon skills and some other guy will pick off your gear and sell it by dawn.
Tuluk
Skill development and longevity stems from taking advantage of a prosperous outdoor locale. Lush, vibrant, wilderness area provides a wide breadth of flora and fauna as well as sparring material, including many types of low threat creatures, and many of the dangerous ones are easy enough to spot so long as you're not AFK in the wilds. Inexpensive, plentiful food and water, perfectly safe foraging locales, significantly lower risk of magicker intervention, easy route to a trading post who will buy your fancy rocks and precious wooden blocks for mad sids all add up to less need to interact, less need to foster a lot of development or seek the protection of Clans to survive.
Quote from: Vwest on April 28, 2013, 02:09:40 AM
Quote from: Riev on April 27, 2013, 07:59:24 PM
I'm really getting annoyed at the "don't get it" remarks. "You don't get it" is not constructive, its destructive to the argument.
You more then likely do get it, you're just being roped into thinking there is more to it then there is.
There is no arcane secret to decoding Tuluk, it isn't some infinitely deep pool of intrigue or the pinnacle of subtly and finesse. No matter what people tell you, it just isn't that complicated.
Read up on the political and social structure, maybe some light reading on what life in a police state is like for some inspiration and get in there and join the utter nonsense that is the current state of Tuluk. In my opinion, the current vision of Tuluk requires a lot more active players to fill out a much broader range of Tuluki society in order to function properly, so right now there are a lot of holes that lead to situations that are just... awkward and silly, really.
Those situations turn either ridiculous or hilarious, both usually resulting in either death or mudsex.
You can take my word for it, the results of both are uninspired and disappointing.
Haha...I'm sorry. How long have you been here?
Hate to be that guy, but you've likely not even seen the potential Tuluk has to offer. Give it time. Trust.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 28, 2013, 02:31:26 AM
Haha...I'm sorry. How long have you been here?
A little over two years.
As someone who's been here for over ten, I can tell you Tuluk has quite a bit of depth. It's not accessible to anyone and everyone. It has eye opening moments of awesome. They are sometimes few and far between. It really depends on who is playing there. Cheap drama, mudsex, 'he said she said' and campaigns of incestuous love affairs really don't amount to much beyond boring yawns and 'here we go agains' in both Tuluk and Allanak.
Some Houses in Allanak have one paragraph of documentation, and i'm not even sure if there is 'secret documentation' for them. They're pretty boring. There's literally a poop house. C'mon.
Tuluk maybe has -too- much documentation. The kind of documentation that, in reality, would be awesome. Every government would love to have all the T's crossed and I's dotted. But some vagueness has proven pretty valuable, like with some tribes and GMH's i've played in. Sometimes when you're too specific, it's too stifling. Rules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.
I honestly find myself playing in Tuluk and not seeing it as 'broken' by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it could be improved. So could Allanak, Luirs, Cenyr, the Canyons of Waste, the Grey Forest. Looks like they seem to improve over time, just takes a while.
So, if you've only been here for two years, or five, or seven, or eleven -- I'd say stick it out before jumping to any radical conclusions about locations you can play in. You'd be surprised what happens when you overturn the wrong rock, at the wrong time.
I wish the only viable location for the purple and blue tattoo was the face. I hate how everyone puts it on the neck and hides it.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 28, 2013, 05:50:21 AM
I wish the only viable location for the purple and blue tattoo was the face. I hate how everyone puts it on the neck and hides it.
It would be even stupider to hide it with a nose ring.
Quote from: Lizzie on April 27, 2013, 08:14:24 PM
Riev, for what it's worth - I -totally- get what you're saying. From the "minion's" perspective - when you send up things to your boss, and your boss doesn't have the coded authority or coded resources to handle a situation - and he passes it up to his clan leader staff member - and that staff member either a) doesn't respond for 2 RL weeks, b) responds with a "Oh, I'm new here, sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about or c) The staffer completely misunderstands the issue, has not monitored any of it, or worse - only monitored a short vignette that depicted something that had nothing to do with the point..and responds in kind.. or d) the clan leader staffer has totally different play times as the players of the PCs involved, who WOULD animate an NPC but can't ever meet up with the PCs involved
then it makes it difficult for the clan leader, and the other PCs involved, to procede with plots and "be the change" (which has become even more cliche than "find out IC").
Like licensing an assassination, when the only lirathan you know, is only available either over the Way or in person for 1 hour per week - and that's the hour you're logging off for the night.
If you need to get a hold of a templar/noble (and in some cases the GMHs) and they are never around when you are, it is perfectly fine to contact staff for assistance if the PC's minions can't make it happen for you. They will either accommodate your request themselves through a response from v/NPCs or help you set up a time with the relevant PCs.
Your example of not being able to arrange a license has nothing to do with clan leader staff support or the lack of it. It is an issue of playtimes not matching, and can be handled as described above.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 28, 2013, 05:50:21 AM
I wish the only viable location for the purple and blue tattoo was the face. I hate how everyone puts it on the neck and hides it.
Tulukis hiding their inks when they travel is like Americans going to Europe and saying they are Canadian. Except it's not so much for avoiding embarrassment as it is for avoiding death. :)
Quote from: Vwest on April 28, 2013, 02:09:40 AM
Quote from: Riev on April 27, 2013, 07:59:24 PM
I'm really getting annoyed at the "don't get it" remarks. "You don't get it" is not constructive, its destructive to the argument.
There is no arcane secret to decoding Tuluk, it isn't some infinitely deep pool of intrigue or the pinnacle of subtly and finesse. No matter what people tell you, it just isn't that complicated.
Read up on the political and social structure, maybe some light reading on what life in a police state is like for some inspiration and get in there and join the utter nonsense that is the current state of Tuluk. In my opinion, the current vision of Tuluk requires a lot more active players to fill out a much broader range of Tuluki society in order to function properly, so right now there are a lot of holes that lead to situations that are just... awkward and silly, really.
Those situations turn either ridiculous or hilarious, both usually resulting in either death or mudsex.
I agree for the most part, except for that last sentence. There is a lot of depth in Tuluki plotting. I would say that while lack of players can be a problem, another problem seems to be a barrier to entry into certain levels of plots. If you're playing an independent citizen without a patron, and insist on staying that way for the PC's entire life, you are unlikely to be included in political plots in the upper-crust. And even if you are playing a PC that is well-connected with the upper-crust, it will take time before your PC is trusted with the knowledge of certain things. When you're not included in these plots, you might observe their effects without realizing what was behind it all. That doesn't mean those things are not happening - they're just happening out of your view.
My personal advice to enjoying Tuluk to its maximum (commoner version):
1) Don't forget to grab the star and band tattoos.
2) Play in a clan, or a group of independents. If there isn't any of the latter, make one.
3) Read the docs, and read them again. They're on the old site for now (old.armageddon.org) but they'll move eventually.
4) Be patient. It will take a while to get promotions, opportunities, and entry into plots.
5) Be careful. If your characters die in days or weeks, your PCs will never reach that point of trust. And yes, the outside of Tuluk is dangerous. In the coded sense there may be less threats outside than there are in Allanak, but that line in the docs about how your PC would have to be crazy or skilled to leave the protective walls of their city-state alone? Just as true in Tuluk as it is in Allanak.
My personal advice to enjoying Tuluk to its maximum (sponsored role version):
1) Read the docs, and read them again. They're on the old site for now (old.armageddon.org) but they'll move eventually.
2) Be patient. When you are starting out, a lot of the PCs around you are already at least somewhat established. New characters trickle into Tuluk a bit more slowly than Allanak.
3) Be as politically careful as your character would be.
4) Pick allies and enemies, think of things to do, and think of who and what you will need to set those things into motion. Then begin collecting and establishing trust.
Those tips are more or less applicable to Allanak IMO, which is why I ultimately think that there isn't much of a difference between playing in the two, except perhaps the higher barrier to entry in political plots in Tuluk, whereas Allanak's highest-level plots are politically or magickally related.
The Bad Seed is correct.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 28, 2013, 04:03:18 AM
Rules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.
This is your opinion and is not invariably true in all cases.
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 28, 2013, 08:27:48 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 28, 2013, 05:50:21 AM
I wish the only viable location for the purple and blue tattoo was the face. I hate how everyone puts it on the neck and hides it.
Tulukis hiding their inks when they travel is like Americans going to Europe and saying they are Canadian. Except it's not so much for avoiding embarrassment as it is for avoiding death. :)
I get that. I'm more annoyed when true-inked citizens strut around Tuluk itself hiding their citizenship inks. Most Tulukis don't even have to worry about their tattoos giving them away because they keep them covered all the time anyway.
The problem is not really that they "hide" Them, it is more the location the docs say they should be...something that has always, in fact annoyed me.
Every spot, but one is someplace that, if you are even close to combat PC, needs armor...Oh, you can get it on your head or neck...gee, those are the two most important spots to protect...face, Eh, it is still going to be covered by a multitude of items.
Now, if the docs said "Shoulders are often used by combat types." Every single one of my Tuluk PCs would sport the ink on shoulders...showing them off proudly, but still coverable should the need arise.
In fact, if I had my way, I would change the docs to say "these tats can be anywhere, but most often Tulukis wear them where they show proudly." Or something to that effect.
How is someone supposed to see them through your armor sleeves, torso garment that has sleeves, and/or the aba/robe/cloak-like-thing with long sleeves?
I've seen a few PCs put the tattoos in their mdesc and have the coded tattoos... but still, if they're somewhere that's covered other people looking at you still shouldn't see them.
Putting a facial tattoo in the mdesc sounds like a prudent option to show it at all times, regardless of nose rings, sunslits, etc. You may want to think twice about wearing facewraps with that. It's a coded issue indeed.
Sleeves do not cover shoulder slot Riya. I tend to think the shoulder slot is sorta between neck and sleeves anyway. Still, the point being, More options for the caste/citizen tats mean a greater likelyhood that somebody will leave one of them uncovered.
Codedly they don't.
According to item descriptions, some things do, and some don't. You have to look to make sure.
Yeah, most sleeve armor is fastened to the body armor over the shoulder, but there are many things that do cover the complete arm. I can think of at least one arm armor that covers only the shoulders and several body armors that cover the entire arm.
The main thing that's going to cover the shoulder is one's about_body slot item.
If you're going to make sure beforehand that all your gear won't cover it, then you've not got a problem.
However this is all going to come down to do you trust other PCs to look and recognize what they can and can't see based on mdesc and item description. Ideally this wouldn't be a problem, but we've yet to reach an ideal.
I don't think it's the -amount- of players in Tuluk that can make it great. I think it's the -quality- of players in Tuluk that can make it great.
If Tuluk is full of people who don't get it, it sucks.
If Tuluk is full of people who get it, it's great.
Pretty simple really. And some of the 'Great Tuluki Players' no longer play the game. Some do, and are playing in Tuluk right now. I don't think there's much wrong with it. It'd be nice to have a playerbase that's big enough to support having 3-5 Noble Houses open and thriving, more people in the ruling caste, and more in-betweeners. But it isn't (yet). Seems like we're getting a bunch of new players though so, who knows?
What I'm getting from Cutthroats post, is absolutely amazing.
What it sounds like to me, then, is that while Allanak might have more plots based on gith and spider incursions, Tuluk doesn't REALLY have that. Sure there is kryl but its not a constant RPT point. In Tuluk, most RP deals with political fallout, rumormongering, and the like, which most people aren't going to be a part of until they've kind of "proven" they're worth the time and effort to invest in.
If thats correct, that might be the "get it" part everyone is talking about. You don't have to "get" Tuluk, you just need to "survive" Tuluk until you're in it.
That being said, is there any way around the fallout of appearing bloodied, or dusty, or swearing around the "upper uppitys" of Tuluk? I'm not suggesting you go into the Sanctuary full of the blood of your enemies (especially since it SHOULD be the blood of your PATRON'S enemies) but its always felt like I can't get away with swearing unless I'm at the Storm or the Tooth, and even then I'm given a chastising look.
Is this just because everyone in Tuluk must be clean, proper, and speak like a gentlemen? Its not the 'seedy' vs 'not seedy' argument, its just that people take the "subtlety" thing so far, and its no longer "masking your intentions" as it is "Be perfect and upright that Muk may love thee". Was this originally how Tuluk was designed? Is this how it is now?
Rive, I may be wrong, but I think you should feel free to be dirty or sweaty. My most successful Tuluki was a surly, angry woman with no interest in pretending to be nice. I think the difference in the way I played her, than how I would have played her in Nak was that I didn't volunteer the opinions to her betters. Among her peers however ...
In the Sanctuary, I'd watch your ass, and even when you're sitting on a stool at the bar, you have to think about whose ass usually sits there. That's how the Sanctuary works. The Storm and the Tooth, I think the only organizations you have to worry about pissing off are Kadius and Kurac, respectively. Kadius might not want you pissing off their upscale merchant clientele by being a fuckwad, but I'm fairly positive Kurac doesn't care what you do, short of stabbing someone in the neck.
My legionnaire corporal threw an elf off a building.
Subtle that, bitch.
Quote from: Riev on April 28, 2013, 03:39:01 PM
What I'm getting from Cutthroats post, is absolutely amazing.
What it sounds like to me, then, is that while Allanak might have more plots based on gith and spider incursions, Tuluk doesn't REALLY have that. Sure there is kryl but its not a constant RPT point. In Tuluk, most RP deals with political fallout, rumormongering, and the like, which most people aren't going to be a part of until they've kind of "proven" they're worth the time and effort to invest in.
If thats correct, that might be the "get it" part everyone is talking about. You don't have to "get" Tuluk, you just need to "survive" Tuluk until you're in it.
Ok so we've established Tuluk is RP oriented and Allanak is hack and slash. Glad we've cleared the air. ;)
...
... ...
Yes of course I'm joking.
Also, I'm just sorta like, wut, when I hear about Allanak dealing with gith incursions. I thought they always went whining to Kurac.
And there's not a lot of kryl RPTs because, well, you missed the train on that, sorry. :(
Quote from: Kismetic on April 28, 2013, 04:51:56 PM
...but I'm fairly positive Kurac doesn't care what you do, short of stabbing someone in the neck.
I am more than fairly positive that is incorrect. Find out more IC.
Quote from: Morrolan on April 28, 2013, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on April 28, 2013, 04:51:56 PM
...but I'm fairly positive Kurac doesn't care what you do, short of stabbing someone in the neck.
I am more than fairly positive that is incorrect. Find out more IC.
Why would Kurac care if you walked into one of their bars with dried blood from hunting? Or if you were cursing, or being loud? Or starting a bar brawl? Seems pretty standard.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 28, 2013, 04:03:18 AM
As someone who's been here for over ten, I can tell you.... (http://i44.tinypic.com/16jfvn.jpg)
QuoteSome Houses in Allanak have one paragraph of documentation, and i'm not even sure if there is 'secret documentation' for them. They're pretty boring. There's literally a poop house. C'mon.
House Jal is an important part of Allanak, since no one there is enough of a tight-ass to pinch turds into diamonds like they do in Tuluk.
QuoteTuluk maybe has -too- much documentation.
We agree. Tuluk has too much documentation and it stifles a lot of players, even older and experienced ones, it would seem. Sounds like it needs some scaling down to make it more approachable for a broader section of the player base.
QuoteRules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.
What you enjoy does not equal what everyone else might enjoy. I personally find the entire system broken because every time a rule is bent, it becomes Templarate business number one. With more players (or scaling back and adjusting Tuluks documentation to better support a smaller player base), that would not be the case as enough else would be going on to let the small things slip past more often then not.
With the current 'one power clique' system (as there aren't enough people / sponsored roles to really support another), you just have a few people 'in' and everyone else is just rotating fodder, making characters, living a bit and then getting vanished for some truly asinine reasons.
QuoteI honestly find myself playing in Tuluk and not seeing it as 'broken' by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it could be improved. So could Allanak, Luirs, Cenyr, the Canyons of Waste, the Grey Forest. Looks like they seem to improve over time, just takes a while.
I'm not hinting at minor improvements or adjustments, I'm suggesting ret-con some documents and adjusting Tuluks system to better function with a smaller number of players, done in such a way that we can return to what it is now when we have the player pool to support it without draining the rest of the game of PCs.
QuoteYou'd be surprised what happens when you overturn the wrong rock, at the wrong time.
I really, really wouldn't, but good effort :)
QuoteI don't think it's the -amount- of players in Tuluk that can make it great. I think it's the -quality- of players in Tuluk that can make it great.
Define quality. What makes a player 'low quality' enough that they make Tuluk 'suck'? What makes a player 'good enough' to meet your standards for the area?
And do it
without falling back on the Tuluki fan #1 cop-out of 'they don't get it', as all that does is reinforce my point that if so many people can't puzzle it out, it needs to be adjusted to make it more approachable for everyone.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who logs in and makes the effort to maintain a three-dimensional character that grows and evolves is a quality player and by extension deserves the opportunity to do more then sit in a tavern, craft or hunt NPCs. Right now, in it's current vision and state, that is all that is available to the vast majority of players in Tuluk unless they convert to a specific style of role and play, which is ridiculous.
People keep saying 'depth' and suggesting all the amazing things that happen in Tuluk. For starters, having seen a very broad section of Tuluks underbelly and been involved in no small amount of it personally, it is not so amazing or so deep that it should be held in reserve for an exclusive set of players who meet whatever 'quality' benchmark has been established by... well, people like you, really. Even the rare time there is some piece of amazing intrigue or happening, it still should not be for an exclusive minority.
QuoteAnd some of the 'Great Tuluki Players' no longer play the game. Some do, and are playing in Tuluk right now. I don't think there's much wrong with it.
If an area requires certain players to make it live and breath, it is broken and in need of fixing. Everyone can be a 'great' player in any area when given the opportunity and allowed enough freedom to add their own personal flair, something the current vision
simply does not support.
I had a lot more written up, but my daughter decided to literally faceroll on the keyboard when I went to get coffee, so... you get the short hand version.
I disagree that Allanak is better for stealthies. more then half of my Master stealthies have been in Tuluk, and I always found it a bit easier to make a living that way there, as long as you know how the game is played.
That being said, I love the gangster feel of playing a rinthi too. How you struggle to eat and drink until you get good at whatever you do. That's a LOT of fun for me.
I don't know that Tuluk is really all that deep, as long as you aren't a full retard. Sometimes, I witness things that are so subtle and clever it tickles, but usually, most of your average characters are normal people, behaving how they should. There's nothing to 'get' if you read the docs. Still, you're encouraged to ask questions. Hearing a lot of desire to understand, and very little of inquiring towards what's confusing.
tl;dr - Tuluk is not Inception, the text experience. It's just another police state
Quote from: Kismetic on April 28, 2013, 06:32:08 PM
tl;dr - Tuluk is not Inception, the text experience.
I lol'd. Sigged.
I've been thinking for a while. Would anyone agree that it'd be a good thing if drinks in places like the sanctuary were made more expensive than elsewhere? I know money isn't exactly scarce in PC circles, but.. You could make a token effort at least.
Quote from: Patuk on April 29, 2013, 09:19:47 AM
I've been thinking for a while. Would anyone agree that it'd be a good thing if drinks in places like the sanctuary were made more expensive than elsewhere? I know money isn't exactly scarce in PC circles, but.. You could make a token effort at least.
It is more expensive.
Quote from: Is Friday on April 29, 2013, 09:20:56 AM
Quote from: Patuk on April 29, 2013, 09:19:47 AM
I've been thinking for a while. Would anyone agree that it'd be a good thing if drinks in places like the sanctuary were made more expensive than elsewhere? I know money isn't exactly scarce in PC circles, but.. You could make a token effort at least.
It is more expensive.
It's not, as long as you're willing to wait for the serving girl.
Quote from: Kismetic on April 28, 2013, 05:41:21 PM
Why would Kurac care if you walked into one of their bars with dried blood from hunting? Or if you were cursing, or being loud? Or starting a bar brawl? Seems pretty standard.
Put words in my mouth much? ::)
Perhaps those are not the things that would bother Kurac.
Quote from: Morrolan on April 29, 2013, 10:52:02 AM
Quote from: Kismetic on April 28, 2013, 05:41:21 PM
Why would Kurac care if you walked into one of their bars with dried blood from hunting? Or if you were cursing, or being loud? Or starting a bar brawl? Seems pretty standard.
Put words in my mouth much? ::)
Perhaps those are not the things that would bother Kurac.
Err, no? Those were the previously cited complaints about Tuluki bars, I was pointing out that The Tembo's Tooth is known to be rough and tumble.
Easy, there, fella!
Quote from: musashi on April 26, 2013, 02:28:46 PM
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 26, 2013, 11:02:03 AM
I completely disagree here. Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places. After all:
Quote from: old.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html#status
The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.
Others may disagree, but I'd personally call a mob beating "unsubtle." If the scene is to lead to violence, then the proper Tuluki conclusion would be for the piqued Salarri peon PC to hire a licensed assassin to neatly and cleanly kill the offending peon from Clan X.
I also totally disagree with the notion that all violence in Tuluk is binary: nothing or straight to hiring an assassin to kill someone. I think there is a large level of gradation there as well, especially in the city's rougher areas. And I feel fairly comfortable that the virtual world available to experience IG at this moment supports that.
I agree with you, Musashi. All violence in Tuluk isn't binary, and it's a good thing no one is making that claim. But I still maintain that a mob of Salarri PCs marching into a bar to publicly beat up a peon from Clan X isn't very Tuluki. I didn't think this was a very controversial opinion for many reasons, including the document I cited earlier, but also based on the collective acknowledgement of other players... Like you, actually (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36129.msg480369.html#msg480369).
Quote from: Musashi
To me this "subtlety" always just seemed like a way of saying that Tuluk was in general, a collectivist culture, where the apperance of harmony within the group was more important than the desires of the individual, and everyone knew it and acted accordingly.
So if someone is pissing you off, you don't punch them in the face out right because that would mess up the appearance of things. You work your aggression out in less obvious ways that an outsider coming into the city wouldn't pick up on, but most of your friends would.
I find your quote there to be a very eloquent and concise explanation for Tuluki subtlety. What changed your opinion since you made that post?
Manners change place to place, but emotions don't
Also people will be subtle in public, but less so with intimates.
Quote from: Vwest on April 28, 2013, 05:48:22 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on April 28, 2013, 04:03:18 AM
QuoteTuluk maybe has -too- much documentation.
We agree. Tuluk has too much documentation and it stifles a lot of players, even older and experienced ones, it would seem. Sounds like it needs some scaling down to make it more approachable for a broader section of the player base.
No, there is not too much documentation. Some of the documentation needs to be updated and revised, and also merged with the various changes staff have made over the years but haven't been included in the currently available versions. This is, in fact, a work in progress.
QuoteQuoteRules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.
What you enjoy does not equal what everyone else might enjoy. I personally find the entire system broken because every time a rule is bent, it becomes Templarate business number one. With more players (or scaling back and adjusting Tuluks documentation to better support a smaller player base), that would not be the case as enough else would be going on to let the small things slip past more often then not.
With the current 'one power clique' system (as there aren't enough people / sponsored roles to really support another), you just have a few people 'in' and everyone else is just rotating fodder, making characters, living a bit and then getting vanished for some truly asinine reasons.
With more players, there'd be more room for sponsored roles, including Templar PCs. If 2-3 Templar PCs can keep things under such control, imagine what 5 would be able to do even if the overall number of PCs in Tuluk grows significantly. Some roles/concepts do draw more attention to themselves in Tuluk: Socially visible commoners (bards, GMH/noble employees), servants of the state (templar aides/Legionnaires), and those generally suspicious (foreigners, troublemakers etc).
I'm not sure what you mean with "one power clique", but it would probably require double the amount of players in the game to double the number of sponsored roles in either city-state. One could argue that there's just "one power clique" in Allanak too, and that it is similarly broken for the reasons you gave. The fact is that there is considerable overturn in sponsored roles from time to time, and it's not a Tuluk phenomenon only. For whatever it's worth, one shouldn't expect to get right in on things after two RL weeks of playing a sponsored role. The staff is usually happy to provide a v/NPC backdrop to make the world come more alive, if the situations feel too much like it's all about these few PCs - regardless of social rank.
PCs get disappeared for all sorts of reasons in Tuluk. If your experiences have been asinine, perhaps you should look to your PC's behavior. If you still consider the reasons asinine, speak with staff or file a complaint. They keep close track of all sponsored roles and do not tolerate abuse of power.
Quote
QuoteI honestly find myself playing in Tuluk and not seeing it as 'broken' by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it could be improved. So could Allanak, Luirs, Cenyr, the Canyons of Waste, the Grey Forest. Looks like they seem to improve over time, just takes a while.
I'm not hinting at minor improvements or adjustments, I'm suggesting ret-con some documents and adjusting Tuluks system to better function with a smaller number of players, done in such a way that we can return to what it is now when we have the player pool to support it without draining the rest of the game of PCs.
Such as? It is worth noting that the major changes to noble/templar responsibilities and documentation in Tuluk were pushed through by PCs in 2006/2007 (with staff support, of course). Granted, there were a few more noble roles open back then, but it's not that different now. These things are not as stagnant as you seem to believe, and the conditions have had some changes through the years since the original introduction of the current system.
Quote
QuoteI don't think it's the -amount- of players in Tuluk that can make it great. I think it's the -quality- of players in Tuluk that can make it great.
Define quality. What makes a player 'low quality' enough that they make Tuluk 'suck'? What makes a player 'good enough' to meet your standards for the area?
And do it without falling back on the Tuluki fan #1 cop-out of 'they don't get it', as all that does is reinforce my point that if so many people can't puzzle it out, it needs to be adjusted to make it more approachable for everyone.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who logs in and makes the effort to maintain a three-dimensional character that grows and evolves is a quality player and by extension deserves the opportunity to do more then sit in a tavern, craft or hunt NPCs. Right now, in it's current vision and state, that is all that is available to the vast majority of players in Tuluk unless they convert to a specific style of role and play, which is ridiculous.
People keep saying 'depth' and suggesting all the amazing things that happen in Tuluk. For starters, having seen a very broad section of Tuluks underbelly and been involved in no small amount of it personally, it is not so amazing or so deep that it should be held in reserve for an exclusive set of players who meet whatever 'quality' benchmark has been established by... well, people like you, really. Even the rare time there is some piece of amazing intrigue or happening, it still should not be for an exclusive minority.
In my opinion, a quality player is someone who
tries to incorporate the documentation and the location's customs and traditions into their PC concept, always
trying to keep true in their roleplay. A for effort, basically. If you don't even try to make your Tuluki different to your Allanaki, then I think you suck. If you say His Light just as you'd say His Shadow, without even considering what meaning your PC should realistically put into such a phrase, or if you hop down to Allanak for a weekend of fun with no real reason, or you buddy up with every southron breed passing by, then you're not making an effort in my book. When I started playing in 2001, my PCs were all over the place - and they didn't care if they were from Nak or Tuluk. I believe that everyone can improve in their roleplaying, through learning by doing, and by actively
trying.
Claiming that tavern sitting or spam crafting are the only options available to those who don't "convert" to a specific style is just silly. Admittedly, as has been noted previously in this thread, some concepts are more difficult than others in Tuluk. Playing completely outside the law, for example.
Tuluk can be absolutely amazing, and the same is true for Allanak, and tribal play of all kinds. Hell, probably even Red Storm. Tuluk
does have depth and not just in the sense that fewer things happen on the surface (like in-your-face powertrips in Nak - whose nobility also happens to value subtlety), but it depends on how the players behind the PCs decide to run things. It's not only for the Great Tuluki Players.
Quote from: Kismetic on April 29, 2013, 11:07:16 AM
Quote from: Morrolan on April 29, 2013, 10:52:02 AM
Perhaps those are not the things that would bother Kurac.
Err, no? Those were the previously cited complaints about Tuluki bars, I was pointing out that The Tembo's Tooth is known to be rough and tumble.
Easy, there, fella!
Yep. And I'm pointing out (for historically good reasons) that while the TT might be rough and tumble, it has Kurac-specific rules that can be determined by thinking about it IC.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 29, 2013, 11:09:33 AM
Quote from: musashi on April 26, 2013, 02:28:46 PM
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 26, 2013, 11:02:03 AM
I completely disagree here. Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places. After all:
Quote from: old.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html#status
The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.
Others may disagree, but I'd personally call a mob beating "unsubtle." If the scene is to lead to violence, then the proper Tuluki conclusion would be for the piqued Salarri peon PC to hire a licensed assassin to neatly and cleanly kill the offending peon from Clan X.
I also totally disagree with the notion that all violence in Tuluk is binary: nothing or straight to hiring an assassin to kill someone. I think there is a large level of gradation there as well, especially in the city's rougher areas. And I feel fairly comfortable that the virtual world available to experience IG at this moment supports that.
I agree with you, Musashi. All violence in Tuluk isn't binary, and it's a good thing no one is making that claim. But I still maintain that a mob of Salarri PCs marching into a bar to publicly beat up a peon from Clan X isn't very Tuluki. I didn't think this was a very controversial opinion for many reasons, including the document I cited earlier, but also based on the collective acknowledgement of other players... Like you, actually (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36129.msg480369.html#msg480369).
Quote from: Musashi
To me this "subtlety" always just seemed like a way of saying that Tuluk was in general, a collectivist culture, where the apperance of harmony within the group was more important than the desires of the individual, and everyone knew it and acted accordingly.
So if someone is pissing you off, you don't punch them in the face out right because that would mess up the appearance of things. You work your aggression out in less obvious ways that an outsider coming into the city wouldn't pick up on, but most of your friends would.
I find your quote there to be a very eloquent and concise explanation for Tuluki subtlety. What changed your opinion since you made that post?
The quote you reference is from 2009. The thing that changed my opinion about Tuluk being a one shade fits all, monolithic culture of subtlety would be, the extra 4 years I now have under my belt playing there.
Since making that post, I got out from under the microcosm most PC's play in where you're in the bubble of upper class commoners rubbing elbows with nobility. I think I was playing a circle bard at the time of that post and still fairly new to the game, so the sentiment makes sense for the role I was in, but I've played warren rat breeds since then as well. I explored the different areas and soaked in some of the flavor echoes staff have put into the game there. I played in Under Tuluk when it was still around.
I'm not saying that there isn't a part of Tuluki society to which the statement I made in 2009 applies, I'm saying that there is more than just that one part, and you can generally read room descriptions and look to the world echoes to get a feel for what it's like in the area you're in.
But even assuming for the sake of argument that all castes from every nook and cranny of Tuluk believed bar brawls were horribly taboo, the point I was actually making is here:
Quote from: musashi on April 26, 2013, 02:28:46 PM
But anyway, more the actual meta point I was making, is that I would prefer low ranking PC's to draw upon the strength of their organazation by first drawing upon the other low ranking PC's in the clan around them for support at that level, rather than taking things as high as they can short of wishing up for staff to animate senior clan members as a go to move.
Bar brawls or no, there are I believe, plenty of things the minions can do at their level without needing to report "someone said a nasty thing to me" to a literate upper crust type PC, and have them get involved.
But ... please note that I do not accept that bar brawls are universally shunned through out all of the city. I feel that if they were, the code would reflect that. As it stands, this is the first paragraph from the helpfile for brawl:
Quote from: help brawlThis command will cause your character to attempt to strike the named
person, presumably with the intention of doing harm. This can only be used
in some seedier establishments which allow 'brawls', at least partially.
Type hit in the sanctuary and it tells you no. You can't brawl here. Ok so that's obviously not a seedy establishment. Type it in the Tembo Tooth, and it works. Ergo ...
Quote from: Patuk on April 29, 2013, 09:19:47 AM
I've been thinking for a while. Would anyone agree that it'd be a good thing if drinks in places like the sanctuary were made more expensive than elsewhere? I know money isn't exactly scarce in PC circles, but.. You could make a token effort at least.
I don't think it'd make any difference anyway, since it's pretty common to go there and just not buy anything anyway. Or buy one drink, and nurse it for a couple of RL hours. I've even seen some people bring drinks in from the other bars.
Quote from: Vwest on April 28, 2013, 05:48:22 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on April 28, 2013, 04:03:18 AM
As someone who's been here for over ten, I can tell you.... (http://i44.tinypic.com/16jfvn.jpg)
QuoteSome Houses in Allanak have one paragraph of documentation, and i'm not even sure if there is 'secret documentation' for them. They're pretty boring. There's literally a poop house. C'mon.
House Jal is an important part of Allanak, since no one there is enough of a tight-ass to pinch turds into diamonds like they do in Tuluk.
QuoteTuluk maybe has -too- much documentation.
We agree. Tuluk has too much documentation and it stifles a lot of players, even older and experienced ones, it would seem. Sounds like it needs some scaling down to make it more approachable for a broader section of the player base.
QuoteRules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.
What you enjoy does not equal what everyone else might enjoy. I personally find the entire system broken because every time a rule is bent, it becomes Templarate business number one. With more players (or scaling back and adjusting Tuluks documentation to better support a smaller player base), that would not be the case as enough else would be going on to let the small things slip past more often then not.
With the current 'one power clique' system (as there aren't enough people / sponsored roles to really support another), you just have a few people 'in' and everyone else is just rotating fodder, making characters, living a bit and then getting vanished for some truly asinine reasons.
QuoteI honestly find myself playing in Tuluk and not seeing it as 'broken' by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it could be improved. So could Allanak, Luirs, Cenyr, the Canyons of Waste, the Grey Forest. Looks like they seem to improve over time, just takes a while.
I'm not hinting at minor improvements or adjustments, I'm suggesting ret-con some documents and adjusting Tuluks system to better function with a smaller number of players, done in such a way that we can return to what it is now when we have the player pool to support it without draining the rest of the game of PCs.
QuoteYou'd be surprised what happens when you overturn the wrong rock, at the wrong time.
I really, really wouldn't, but good effort :)
QuoteI don't think it's the -amount- of players in Tuluk that can make it great. I think it's the -quality- of players in Tuluk that can make it great.
Define quality. What makes a player 'low quality' enough that they make Tuluk 'suck'? What makes a player 'good enough' to meet your standards for the area?
And do it without falling back on the Tuluki fan #1 cop-out of 'they don't get it', as all that does is reinforce my point that if so many people can't puzzle it out, it needs to be adjusted to make it more approachable for everyone.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who logs in and makes the effort to maintain a three-dimensional character that grows and evolves is a quality player and by extension deserves the opportunity to do more then sit in a tavern, craft or hunt NPCs. Right now, in it's current vision and state, that is all that is available to the vast majority of players in Tuluk unless they convert to a specific style of role and play, which is ridiculous.
People keep saying 'depth' and suggesting all the amazing things that happen in Tuluk. For starters, having seen a very broad section of Tuluks underbelly and been involved in no small amount of it personally, it is not so amazing or so deep that it should be held in reserve for an exclusive set of players who meet whatever 'quality' benchmark has been established by... well, people like you, really. Even the rare time there is some piece of amazing intrigue or happening, it still should not be for an exclusive minority.
QuoteAnd some of the 'Great Tuluki Players' no longer play the game. Some do, and are playing in Tuluk right now. I don't think there's much wrong with it.
If an area requires certain players to make it live and breath, it is broken and in need of fixing. Everyone can be a 'great' player in any area when given the opportunity and allowed enough freedom to add their own personal flair, something the current vision simply does not support.
I had a lot more written up, but my daughter decided to literally faceroll on the keyboard when I went to get coffee, so... you get the short hand version.
Thanks for the shorthand version!
I think you have an attitude towards Tuluk that will not likely change based on what I say. To each their own. I have a fantastic time playing in Tuluk because I get it. Its unfortunate that you don't. Tuluk could use a makeover like many other places in this 20+ year old hobby game we love and share. It ain't broke, just needs a tune up. And sorry, you haven't been playing the game long enough to have any perspective. How many PCs have you played in Tuluk? Allanak? The breadth of experience one, two, three pcs can have don't touch the tip of the iceberg that is Tuluk.
As far as quality, palomar nailed it on the head. Playing strictly to docs even to the detriment of your PC.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 26, 2013, 11:02:03 AM
I completely disagree here. Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places.
If that's the case, then why are their echoes that pop up in public places saying otherwise? I'm not saying its condoned, but theirs at least two bars in Tuluk that have something to the effect of: "a brawl breaks out" echoes. Not every place is the Sanctuary.
In fact in the warrens you hear some pretty savage echoes as well.
Yeah, FWIW the brawl code and brawling echos pop up in more taverns in Tuluk than not, actually.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 29, 2013, 01:29:57 PM
As far as quality, palomar nailed it on the head. Playing strictly to docs even to the detriment of your PC.
This is an interesting point. For whatever reason, I find it much more FUN for me as a player to play to the docs to my
detriment in Allanak vs. Tuluk.
Something about knowing that I'm going to be jailed, interrogated, maybe outright killed, that my body will be dumped on a public pile for all to see, that people will talk about my death and why I was punished, and so on, just makes me WANT to play to my detriment in Allanak.
This leads me to a post I have been tempted to make, but have not so far because it's hard to get a word in on this thread.
It is just more fun to play a commoner in Allanak than it is in Tuluk, from my experience. (20-30 PCs played total, at least 6 played mostly in Allanak and Tuluk each over at least 4 years. Sorry if my experience isn't enough for you, Reiloth).
Being disappeared might be satisfying and fun for the winners of the equation, but it is not fun for the potential losers, to have their character suddenly poof and have everyone assume that it was Kryl. Who wants to go out like that?
The problem is that for this, and many other reasons, being a commoner in Tuluk isn't as fun. This is why the hierarchical pyramid in Tuluk lacks a strong base and feels top-heavy. There are many ways this can be fixed ICly, but there have been no major changes to this problem in my years of playing. The fact that there seem to be more newbie commoners in Tuluk makes it worse. Newbies lack the experience to change their gameworld, they seek to fit in.
I understand Tuluk, but for reasons similar to Harmless's, I don't dig it.
OTOH, I think the North/South subtlety distinction is overdone. I've seen plenty subtlety in the South, and brutality in the North.
I'd say its not a 10:1 ratio of subtlety:brutality in the North and 10:1 of brutality:subtlety in the South. It's more like 6:4.
EDIT or maybe 7:3.
I have a feeling that the ratio of PCs who actually end up "disappeared" vs those PCs who end up dying to gortoks or storing is pretty minimal.
1:72 to be exact.
Quote from: Malken on April 29, 2013, 02:15:13 PM
I have a feeling that the ratio of PCs who actually end up "disappeared" vs those PCs who end up dying to gortoks or storing is pretty minimal.
1:72 to be exact.
If true, then that is more likely a function of the aforementioned unattractiveness of playing PCs at risk of being disappeared in Tuluk, and is therefore a statistic in favor my post rather than against it.
Quote from: Harmless on April 29, 2013, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: Malken on April 29, 2013, 02:15:13 PM
I have a feeling that the ratio of PCs who actually end up "disappeared" vs those PCs who end up dying to gortoks or storing is pretty minimal.
1:72 to be exact.
If true, then that is more likely a function of the aforementioned unattractiveness of playing PCs at risk of being disappeared in Tuluk, and is therefore a statistic in favor my post rather than against it.
Oh, I tend to agree with you, don't get me wrong. I think that the whole cycle of PCs actually buying licenses on other PCs and going through the whole motion of achieving a good ol' Tuluki assassination is also probably minimal, compared to just waiting for said PC to leave the gates and smacking them with your AI strength and clubs.
I'm not saying it never happens, but I think that when people suddenly stop seeing another PC, chances are that PC went out to die to something simple or simply stored.
I agree with that as well. I think super sekrit awesome assassinations are likely not as common as that one tembo with AI strength or the carru who got a lucky neck shot.
That's just the way the game is.
But I think that applies to Allanak as well. You're more likely to end up spider and scrab chow than you are to end up on the corpse pile.
Quote from: Malken on April 27, 2013, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: Kismetic on April 27, 2013, 12:14:08 AM
Someone explain to the noobs how Tuluk works. :P
Also, if you're Tuluki born, you should have the inks. Or a good reason why you don't, and are participating in that particular metagame. By example, "Oh, I am a citizen of Tuluk, Faithful Lady, I was born right over there in the Warrens." Two days later ... "Oh, no, Lord Templar. I've never even been to Tuluk!"
The fact that there hasn't been any real new Chosen Lords or Ladies of note in the last three years except for the two that have been there forever now (and I have absolutely nothing bad to say about them, these guys are geniuses!) should show you that many of us, even though we've played in Tuluk for HOURS and DAYS and YEARS are all a bunch of "clueless noobs" as you say. Most of the ones I've seen end up storing within a month, and that's being generous.
When's the last time you saw a new Faithful Lady as well?
The HEART of Tuluk is all about the Faithful Ladies and we barely ever see any PCs playing them anymore.
Sorry, I know that this quote is from a few pages ago, but I'm just going to slip a little aside in, as this isn't entirely accurate. There has been more than two long lived Chosen in the last three years. (not in the last year and a half or so I guess though) as there was an active long lived Chosen Lady (long lived as in longer than a year) from around Jan 2010 to summer 2011. I can speak a little bit from experience here, as I -loved- the role, and only stored her due to having a baby in RL. Playing an active clan leader/noble is almost impossible with a newborn. I think part of the problem with the retention rate is that it is just -hard- playing a leader, and a leader immersed in politics that aren't always easily seen on the surface is even more difficult. I'll admit it, I'm a Tuluk lover. I enjoy the culture, and the false front, and the barbed snark, and the heavy handed totalitarian regime. I don't think it is 'easy' by any stretch of the imagination, and you have to have patience and watch how things play out over the long term. And there are lots and lots of people that play in Tuluk that I don't think really even take the time to try to understand the culture. I love how Tuluk is the opposite of Allanak in the room descriptions and echos, and I love when you are in game and you find someone that clearly 'gets it' (not that I always get it all the time either, but it is just fun for me) and you can make a connection with them (either as friends or as foes). Tuluk isn't for everybody, and Allanak isn't for everybody, people enjoy different things, and I think it is neat that this game offers that to people.
- Irulan
Quote from: musashi on April 29, 2013, 11:37:01 AM
The quote you reference is from 2009. The thing that changed my opinion about Tuluk being a one shade fits all, monolithic culture of subtlety would be, the extra 4 years I now have under my belt playing there.
Since making that post, I got out from under the microcosm most PC's play in where you're in the bubble of upper class commoners rubbing elbows with nobility. I think I was playing a circle bard at the time of that post and still fairly new to the game, so the sentiment makes sense for the role I was in, but I've played warren rat breeds since then as well. I explored the different areas and soaked in some of the flavor echoes staff have put into the game there. I played in Under Tuluk when it was still around.
I'm not saying that there isn't a part of Tuluki society to which the statement I made in 2009 applies, I'm saying that there is more than just that one part, and you can generally read room descriptions and look to the world echoes to get a feel for what it's like in the area you're in.
You're going to great lengths to justify your apocryphal opinion that wide swaths of Tuluk's population would be easily accepting of public mob violence without citing any documentation. Also, brief and spontaneous brawls are different than organized mobs of Salarri PCs beating down peons from Clan X. It may happen from time to time! But that doesn't mean it's socially
accepted.
Let's start with the room echoes. You're drawing a whole host of conclusions based on a scant few room echoes that come up every few hours, and you're choosing to ignore other echoes that literally show Big Brother (and Sister!) watching. I guess your line of logic goes that 1) brawls are unsubtle and 2) there are echoes of brawls in Tuluk so 3) we can assume that the Imms therefore don't intend for all Tulukis to value subtlety. I disagree with that chain of logic for a whole host of reasons, but I don't have to extrapolate and guess about the intent of the Imms, I can just go to the page that the Imms wrote specifically for Tuluki RP (http://old.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html). It's not a page for just "a part of Tuluki society to which the statement [you] made in 2009 applies." It's the doc for all Tuluki players, not just for those in the Poets' Circle and the Sanctuary.
Quote from: Tuluki RP page
Within the city of Tuluk, social standing is an important part of day-to-day life. The things done and said by your character can influence your character's social status. As with many things, it is much easier to negatively impact one's status than it is to positively affect it. While there is no single indicator to determine one's own social status, there are telltale signs that can give some idea. If you are well-liked and respected within your caste, it is much easier to get things accomplished. Conversely, making a bad name for yourself can easily result in avoidance and hostility (in more extreme cases).
Depending on caste, social status can be influenced in different ways. The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule. Associating with the 'wrong crowd' (which, in Tuluk, includes magickers and southerners) can also cause a negative impact. Alternatively, working willingly with one of His Chosen or His Faithful as a partisan can cause a positive impact, assuming they are in good standing themselves. These are only a few ways that social standing can be affected, but these examples should be helpful.
As another example of not needing to guess about the Imm intent, I give you Nyr (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36129.msg480382.html#msg480382):
Quote from: Nyr
Tuluki culture bred this subtlety thing out of desperation. They were occupied by a foreign power. Given their more-obvious tribal roots, they took the subtle thing to an art form, and exalted it after they drove out the Allanaki folks. I don't think it's so high and mighty as some make it look, but it is a part of the culture. Tuluk strikes me as both excited and loathe to change things from status quo. That is why most changes in Tuluk are forced, not gradual.
In Allanak and Tuluk, you can state whatever you want.
In Tuluk, if it offends someone, they'll most likely handle you later, and out of sight of the public, because that is the societal norm. Doing otherwise isn't unheard of, but deviating from the societal norm on a habitual basis probably won't be good for your continued health.
Nyr didn't qualify by saying only the upper crust "bred this subtlety thing out of desperation." It wasn't only the upper crust that was "occupied by a foreign power" after all.
So sure, there are brawl echoes. How do we make sense of it given the explicitly stated Imm opinions in the docs and on the GDB? Well, just cuz there are brawls doesn't mean that most Tulukis approve. Just cuz there are brawls doesn't mean that the perpetrators aren't dealt with in a subtly Tuluki way afterward. And just cuz there are brawls doesn't mean that a mob of Salarri PCs publicly beating a peon of Clan X would be overlooked by the authorities or even by most Tulukis. No one is stopping the Salarri PCs from having their public beatdown, but doing so "probably won't be good for [their] continued health."
Quote from: musashi on April 29, 2013, 11:37:01 AM
But ... please note that I do not accept that bar brawls are universally shunned through out all of the city. I feel that if they were, the code would reflect that. As it stands, this is the first paragraph from the helpfile for brawl:
Quote from: help brawlThis command will cause your character to attempt to strike the named
person, presumably with the intention of doing harm. This can only be used
in some seedier establishments which allow 'brawls', at least partially.
Type hit in the sanctuary and it tells you no. You can't brawl here. Ok so that's obviously not a seedy establishment. Type it in the Tembo Tooth, and it works. Ergo ...
By that reasoning, public murder is acceptable because the Imms haven't disabled the Kill command in public areas of Tuluk, and magickers are acceptable to Tulukis because the Imms haven't disabled the ability for players to make mages in Tuluk. I obviously disagree, because the docs state otherwise.
I'm not saying that brawls don't happen in Tuluk. I'm not saying that there isn't even mob violence sometimes in Tuluk. What I am saying is that those two facts don't give a PC carte blanche to go start fights and then to complain about the negative consequences. I've already shared my opinion,
which is that it depends on many factors, and location is only one of them. If the brawler PC has done their homework, maybe it'll go well for them. My best advice, though, is to find out IC. Get your Salarri PC friends together and go hand out beatdowns to PCs from Clan X in the bars and then see what happens in Tuluk. But remember:
Quote from: Nyr
...deviating from the societal norm on a habitual basis probably won't be good for your continued health.
On another note!
Quote from: musashi on April 29, 2013, 11:37:01 AM
But even assuming for the sake of argument that all castes from every nook and cranny of Tuluk believed bar brawls were horribly taboo, the point I was actually making is here:
Quote from: musashi on April 26, 2013, 02:28:46 PM
But anyway, more the actual meta point I was making, is that I would prefer low ranking PC's to draw upon the strength of their organazation by first drawing upon the other low ranking PC's in the clan around them for support at that level, rather than taking things as high as they can short of wishing up for staff to animate senior clan members as a go to move.
Bar brawls or no, there are I believe, plenty of things the minions can do at their level without needing to report "someone said a nasty thing to me" to a literate upper crust type PC, and have them get involved.
Yep. But that has nothing to do with this thread, so maybe start a derail thread for this particular complaint of yours?
Some of you guys can be real, defensive assholes. Like, to the point where I'm sad and embarrassed I share this wonderful game's experience with you.
Stop trying to "win" the GDB, or "win" the discussion about Tuluk. Some people have specific feelings about it. After 10 fucking pages we GET that you really enjoy the city, and really understand your roles there. Congratulations. I'll throw you a party in my pants, you can all come by later.
Can we get back to actually -helping- the thread? Not just telling people who seem to not like Tuluk that their opinions are wrong or stupid or outdated?
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 29, 2013, 03:12:06 PM
Things about the Tuluki RP docs.
A bar brawl seems to me, not to be an extreme case of making a bad name for yourself since it's tolerated in seedier dives both by the militia and by the general patrons of the establishments since it echoes there as a regular occurance, and does not trigger the crim code.
Will being rough and tumble and seedy in Tuluk lower your social status? Yes. But I don't believe it says in the Tuluki docs that all Tulukis universally value their social status, or that they all struggle to maintain high social status because doing otherwise results in punative action. It just says it plays an important part of day to day life. And that's true. If you're a skeezy fellow with low social status, people who are not will look down on and avoid you, per the docs. Does being skeezy and having low social status merit hostility? Only in extreme cases.
So is it ok to throw a punch at someone you don't like in the Sanctuary or the Partisan Punch and get away with it? No.
It is ok to do so in the Tooth, the Firestorm, or the Burrow? Yes.
And the code reflects this.
There exists in Tuluk, both people with low status, and places for those people to exist without being targetted for it.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 29, 2013, 03:12:06 PM
A quote from Nyr.
Nyr also said he didn't think it's so high and mighty as some make it look, as well. He also said that "doing otherwise" ie ... dealing with them now, publically rather than later, isn't unheard of. So in my mind, the answers to your concerns are in the things you're referencing. But I don't think they explictly state what you think they do. The idea that every bar brawl echo you see in game is dealt with afterwards by having the people involved disappeared or somehow repremanded such that they wouldn't ever do it again strkes me as ludacris on its face, for reasons I already mentioned about them being accepted by the virtual envionment and the criminal code.
Quote from: Red Ranger on April 29, 2013, 03:12:06 PM
By that reasoning, public murder is acceptable because the Imms haven't disabled the Kill command in public areas of Tuluk, and magickers are acceptable to Tulukis because the Imms haven't disabled the ability for players to make mages in Tuluk. I obviously disagree, because the docs state otherwise.
I'm not sure what your point is here. The kill command isn't disabled, but the crim code
does take notice of it when you use it (in a populated area). Thus we know killing is not acceptable to law enforcement or bystanders when they wittness it. Same with the cast command.
The hit comand, when enabled, allows you to hit someone in a bar
without triggering the crim code ... thus we know it is not seen as unacceptable to law enforcement or bystanders, even in a populated area like a seedy tavern.
Your line of reasoning on this particular point is non sequitur I believe.
And lastly, I clarified why I thought the meta point I made was an issue larger in Tuluk than Allanak (thus on topic) when I first posted it.
I think I've made my line of reasoning as clear as I can, so aside from pointing out where it's being misrepresented, I don't think I need to harp on it anymore.
I think there would be a significant portion of Tuluki people that really don't care about their social status enough to avoid being, or acting like, uncultured jerks. I think to some extent, Maslow's heirarchy of needs applies.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg/450px-Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png)
The kind of Tuluki that would care about social status, would tend to have a lot of the bottommost needs handled (physiological and safety-related, maybe even love/belonging). Now they are working in the Tuluki cultural sphere and they need to focus on esteem and self-actualization. Many PCs have the first two levels handled very quickly by doing a job, and the third by talking to other PCs. The reason why there is such a focus on social status in the docs is likely because it encourages a typical Tuluki player to participate in the world (and/or possibly underworld) of Tuluki social struggle.
The reason why you see echoes of screams cut short and jerks punching each other is because those vNPCs aren't concerned about the higher levels of Muk's Maslow's pyramid. People are getting mugged for food and that half-elf down the bar just looked at that Bynner funny. These are basic concerns compared to Tuluki political play - struggles between people with little or no consequence to the people with higher needs. Can a PC participate in those struggles? Absolutely - that's what I imagine players are asking for when they want to play a rough and gritty character in Tuluk. Your advance up the social ladder will be slow, if existent at all, but your playtime would still be fun.
And for what it's worth, a similar split exists in Allanak between grubby commoners, and nobility and the people who work for them. It's probably just more pronounced in Tuluk because Allanak tends toward the "basic struggle for survival" end while Tuluk tends more toward "the struggle for esteem and self-actualization" end.
Just to make a note of it here... rooms don't have the default ability for you to brawl in them. That has to be manually added, so clearly whoever built the places where you can do so... thought it was appropriate for such to happen there.
Cutthroat, have my children. Thank for for actively influencing the thread, and having good, positive ideas.
Quote from: musashi on April 29, 2013, 03:47:29 PM
A bunch of stuff about the code.
Musashi, we're going to have to agree to disagree. You can decide that the code trumps the RP docs while I decide that the RP docs trump the code. But I think someone else put it best recently:
Quote from: Dakota on April 27, 2013, 08:21:12 AM
Wow. When you go to code things get lame. When you RP? Things get amazing.
You seem intent on interpreting my argument as a blanket statement that all brawls in Tuluk are bad RP, but that's not what I've written. What I've written, in fact, is that It Depends (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45373.msg748419.html#msg748419). I can think of plenty of scenarios where a public brawl in a Tuluki bar could be "good RP." I can also think of plenty of scenarios where a public brawl in a bar can lead to serious negative consequences for the PCs involved. Like I've said, it really depends.
You're the one that seems to be arguing the absolute maxim that: public brawl in bar = always totally and completely kosher forever and ever. The burden is on you to prove that expansive claim, but just because there are room echoes mentioning brawls and just because the code permits brawls in some places doesn't mean that the PCs doing it are immune to IC consequences, just like the vNPCs doing it aren't necessarily immune to IC consequences.
Better yet, find out IC!
I'm sorry Red Ranger but, that is not at all what I'm implying or saying, nor do I find it helpful to proclaim someone else's position.
I also never thought you were arguing that all brawls were bad all the time anymore than I was arguing that they are always ok.
We both have an "it depends" but they seem to be different.
I think our main difference is that your "it depends" seems to focus around the characters involved primarily.
While my "it depends" also incorperates the environment the characters are in.
To make a 'nakki example of it:
A templar might get really upset at a commoner who punched his aide in the face if his aide was in the Red Retreat or the Azure Dragon minding their own business.
But ...
A templar might get really upset at the aide even being in the Gaj in the first place, getting his or her slum on, let alone mouthing off to the drunk Bynners there and then expecting the templar to come in and clean up the aide's mess.
Any talk of code was just meant to support this environmental consideration. You'll get crim flagged for punching an aide in the face in the Azure Dragon because it does not support the brawl code. You will not, in the Gaj. Etc. I don't think this is a case of code trumping RP or RP trumping code, I think it's a case of code supporting RP.
I am generally less than thrilled when the "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?"'s get flung around from one commoner to another in the seedier parts of town. I think that's where we have our disagreement, or perhaps just our misunderstanding.
I pretty much agree with everything cutthroat just posted. Thanks for that!
Bar brawls in Tuluk are for the lower social classes.
This translates ICly. Wealthy merchants or House servants won't brawl because it's beneath them, but when you're a lumberjack or a clay digger or a whore brawling is just fine. People won't look down on you for it, because it's expected. People -will- look down on you for being the lowly lumberjack or clay digger or whore that you are, but that's just the way things are. Brawling doesn't lower your status, it only reinforces your it.
Well it could lower it if you're a circle bard or a house guard ... but yes. I get what you're saying.
Cutthroat is right.
w/e. I think Musashi and Cutthroat and Amanda summed it up well enough over the last few posts.
Hey hey hey. We can keep it civil yo, let's roll back the snark!
*eats popcorn*
Quote from: musashi on April 29, 2013, 05:49:36 PM
Hey hey hey. We can keep it civil yo, let's roll back the snark!
Tulukis. ::)
/snarkcrest out
Quote from: palomar on April 29, 2013, 11:17:51 AM
No, there is not too much documentation. Some of the documentation needs to be updated and revised, and also merged with the various changes staff have made over the years but haven't been included in the currently available versions. This is, in fact, a work in progress.
I can't comment on 'future docs' or have an opinion on them either way, unfortunately.
Right now, it seems to overwhelm more then a few people, so if the updates are a work in progress then I would hope they are made a little more compact, easily digested and understood.
QuoteWith more players, there'd be more room for sponsored roles, including Templar PCs. If 2-3 Templar PCs can keep things under such control, imagine what 5 would be able to do even if the overall number of PCs in Tuluk grows significantly.
Who said they needed to be Templars or Nobles?
There is so much room for more variation in Tuluk that if we had the numbers, I would much prefer filling out the middle and lower classes with sponsored leadership roles to offer more options for players to play the characters they want without such a glaring disadvantage. As I said, more 'layers' in the social ladder (ie: PCs) would make the current vision of Tuluk feel much less clunky, to me at least.
QuoteI'm not sure what you mean with "one power clique", but it would probably require double the amount of players in the game to double the number of sponsored roles in either city-state.
What I mean is, there aren't enough opposing groups of players for there to be much more then superficial political or power shifts, since any meaningful opposition is easily eliminated because there are no practical PC allies to be had. It's a very blunted way of explaining it, but going into more then that might creep a little too close to IC sensitive and I would rather avoid that as much as possible.
QuotePCs get disappeared for all sorts of reasons in Tuluk. If your experiences have been asinine, perhaps you should look to your PC's behavior. If you still consider the reasons asinine, speak with staff or file a complaint. They keep close track of all sponsored roles and do not tolerate abuse of power.
It seems to be a common response to most 'negative' posts on the forums (I think I'm being more practical and constructive, but... opinions, etc.) that it must be because a player is bitter or unhappy about something that happened to them in-game. The only death I've had in Tuluk was 100% justified and a
long time coming - I would have preferred a little more on the emote side of things, but it's a code-based game and you don't always get the flavor you want on the way out the door.
What I'm talking about is people who should have much more impressive things to deal with, sitting around planning the death of a character to 'see if their mate is good in bed'. There are a lot of those types of situations where you're sitting there at the keyboard thinking, 'Don't they have more important things to do? Why is my character risking death in a laundry hamper, spying on the great and powerful... and hearing this of all things?'
I've had some questionable reasons for killing some PCs, but... really?
Really?Quote... things are not as stagnant as you seem to believe, and the conditions have had some changes through the years since the original introduction of the current system.
I wouldn't say so much stagnant as clunky, a lot of things follow a line you would expect and then just... become awkward, it feels like it should be handled by characters who do not exist or would naturally flow in another direction. Instead it goes from lowbrow hunter has dispute with lowbrow crafter... to it becoming serious enough business to warrant Tuluk's social and political elite to get involved.
I've been in the same room when this kind of thing is discussed in-game, where the petty issues between nobody independents is discussed with the weight and severity you would expect from treason or impending invasion. This is the kind of thing that makes Tuluk feel like it has a lot of gaps that need filling, the kind you need to fill with players.
More players filling out the meaty middle instead of ascending to the upper class almost every time would do a lot to eliminate that, but since we don't have the numbers or even enough people inclined to settle into the middle class (and low class / criminal seeming just unwanted from an OOC / design point of view), a simple adjustment to how the powers that be would respond to disputes and happenings with the lower classes would work.
That isn't to say it wouldn't be known or noted, but... would they really care that hunter A wants to pummel hunter B over a harlot? Even in a place like Tuluk that frowns upon the overt, a lot of the things people get caught or called on shouldn't ever be of interest to anyone outside that particular social circle.
QuoteClaiming that tavern sitting or spam crafting are the only options available to those who don't "convert" to a specific style is just silly.
If you want the fabled 'Tuluk experience' you need to make a character that fits into a narrow range or convert an existing one, otherwise you just sit on the outside getting the occasional glimpse of what is happening and never really moving beyond the 'drama' fluff that passes the time between really interesting things.
Quote from: Vwest on April 28, 2013, 05:48:22 PMAnd do it without falling back on the Tuluki fan #1 cop-out of 'they don't get it', as all that does is reinforce my point that if so many people can't puzzle it out, it needs to be adjusted to make it more approachable for everyone.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 29, 2013, 01:29:57 PMI have a fantastic time playing in Tuluk because I get it. Its unfortunate that you don't.
::)
Vwest: And sorry, you haven't been playing the game long enough to have any perspective. How many PCs have you played in Tuluk? Allanak? The breadth of experience one, two, three pcs can have don't touch the tip of the iceberg that is Tuluk.
Sorry, I don't feel I need to explain a philosophical milestone. If you don't get it, you don't get it. You perceive some problems I agree with, but for the most part, I think it's just ignorance.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 29, 2013, 08:13:55 PM
Vwest: And sorry, you haven't been playing the game long enough to have any perspective. How many PCs have you played in Tuluk? Allanak? The breadth of experience one, two, three pcs can have don't touch the tip of the iceberg that is Tuluk.
Sorry, I don't feel I need to explain a philosophical milestone. If you don't get it, you don't get it. You perceive some problems I agree with, but for the most part, I think it's just ignorance.
His gdb account's been there for two years. His actual account might have been there for even longer.
But, okay. I'll remember that then. One cannot properly RP tulukiness after two years at least. And multiple characters. And if you question that maybe,
maybe, something is wrong with it, you just don't 'get it.' Shall we ignore that some of the people posting complaints here have played for even longer? That some are deemed suitable to play desert elves and yet more complex roles? That Tuluk is considered a
recommended starting point for brand new people to enter?But, yeah. Ignorance. Right. That must be the case for a whole slew of people and their concerns.
Edited: Harmless's post below says it the best.
This is terrible, you guys. Right now, we have a lot of new players, some of whom may be reading this, and we're accusing one another of being "ignorant" based on... what, some GDB posts? I know we warn them on other threads not to take the GDB seriously, but I humbly suggest that Reiloth should cool off some, and qualify his statements. Perhaps even redact.
Tuluk-based Newbies, just make sure to send honest character reports to the imms and you will get feedback on what you're doing. It might feel like learning the hard way at times, but stick with it and you'll "get it." Someday. Maybe. I can't tell you for certain, cause maybe I don't "get it" either. I would LIKE to "get it." I have played many Tuluki PCs in my endeavor to learn how Tuluk works. (Interestingly, the only Tuluki PCs I look back fondly on were female. The males, or one female dwarf were... not as fun. In fact, with one of my old Tulukis, I made some HORRIBLE decisions both ICly and not, and was driven to such a degree of frustration that I nearly lost karma.)
Those gaming experiences are directly related to my earlier posts. Becoming specific and suggesting my ideas for what could be done to fix those problems are too IC for this board. I have ideas for future characters now that I think have a shot at helping to "fix" this issue, perhaps a personal one, perhaps a larger problem (I can't be the judge), but with Tuluk's culture feeling so protected? I wonder what will come of those ideas, or if those character applications will even be allowed at all. We'll see.
In any case, I don't like being accused of "not getting" something that I literally put 750 hours of playing time into. (Yes, I did the math, Reiloth, using my account notes.) Playing any game for 750 hours and "not getting it" would be truly a stupendous feat of idiocy and ignorance indeed.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 29, 2013, 08:13:55 PM
Vwest: And sorry, you haven't been playing the game long enough to have any perspective. How many PCs have you played in Tuluk? Allanak? The breadth of experience one, two, three pcs can have don't touch the tip of the iceberg that is Tuluk.
Sorry, I don't feel I need to explain a philosophical milestone. If you don't get it, you don't get it. You perceive some problems I agree with, but for the most part, I think it's just ignorance.
I think it is unfair to say that Vwest's thoughts on any aspect of the game should be wholly ignored simply because he or she may or may not have as much experience playing the game as you or some other people do. To dismiss someone on the basis of "too bad you don't get it but I do" seems entirely unhelpful and not conducive to further discussion and exploration of what people's perceptions of a specific aspect of the game world is. Frankly it also seems rather elitist and condescending, and I wonder why you would bother to post something like that in the first place. Could we please keep the posts constructive rather than resorting to "lol nub"? To those people who have written at length about their perspective and likes/dislikes about Tuluk, thanks I've found some of the posts informative and helpful.
Harmless is correct.
Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. But I think making grand statements about how Tuluk sucks or why massive changes should be made likely isn't the purview of newer players. I think Vwest and many others made valid points throughout the thread. But I do not think newer players (rightfully so) get all the nuances of not only Tuluk, but other aspects/areas of the game. All I truly want is for people to dig a little deeper. I do not think Tuluk is as banal as some people make it out to be.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 29, 2013, 10:18:24 PM
Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. But I think making grand statements about how Tuluk sucks or why massive changes should be made likely isn't the purview of newer players. I think Vwest and many others made valid points throughout the thread. But I do not think newer players (rightfully so) get all the nuances of not only Tuluk, but other aspects/areas of the game. All I truly want is for people to dig a little deeper. I do not think Tuluk is as banal as some people make it out to be.
The point some of us are trying to make though, Reilioth, is this:
How can we expect new players to comfortably fit into the "we get it" mode, when quite a few veterans don't get it? It shouldn't even be a matter of getting it or not getting it. You're basically saying that the learning curve is tolerable for everywhere EXCEPT Tuluk, which is impossible for even some veterans. I can't help but think that is a deterrant to playing, and not an attraction. It makes it not a challenge, but rather something to simply avoid entirely. How can new players think it's even worth it to try, when some veterans have tried, and tried, and tried, and haven't figured "it" out after years of playing?
And what is IT that people are getting, or not getting? I think that's the question being asked. What is IT? Define it. Because some of us have been trying to get it, but since we don't know what it is, we have no way of knowing if we got it or not, or if it's worth it to try and figure it out at all. I've received kudoses for my northern characters, and even some positive comments from some of the staffers - present and former - telling me that I'm doing a GREAT job with these characters. So, do I get it? If I do, how come I have no idea what it is?
It's like talking in circles whenever this topic comes up. The pro-Tulukis say "you just have to get it, in order to get it." And the anti-TUlukis say "we don't get it, therefore it sucks." And then there's the rest of us who just want to know what the hell IT is.
So the newbs don't get Tuluk. They certainly seem to get Allanak.
Where does the problem lay? The city? Or the player?
I must confess, I don't have any idea what the "it" is either, and I don't find those posts particularly helpful to anyone. I think Kismetic summed it up best when he said Tuluk is not Inception in text format, it's just a police state.
I don't think the documentation is really that complicated, so I'm not on Vwest's boat in the regard, but when he or she got into talking about high social status PC's getting deeply involved in some petty dispute between hunter Bob and hunter Joe as if the situation were serious as treason, that I can relate to.
Like I've said before I know that happens everywhere in Armageddon because of the PC microcosm, but it does seem to happen more in Tuluk from my perspective. I think that kind of thing is easy to fix, but easy to break again too ... it's just going to depend on who the leader PC's of the moment are.
Anyway what is this "it"? Can someone give a concise definition or example?
Quote from: Reiloth on April 29, 2013, 10:18:24 PMBut I think making grand statements about how Tuluk sucks or why massive changes should be made likely isn't the purview of newer players.
Exaggerating will not make your position any less assailable.
No one is suggesting we turn it into Allanak 2.0 or that we strip it bare and start again, only that there are changes that can be made to make it both more approachable to people and keep it in line with what the player population can support. I would play in a Tuluk where I'm not met with gaping holes where players should be or ridiculous situations that wouldn't exist if we made some simple adjustments to the social structure there.
No one is spitting on Tuluk,
only suggesting ways to make it better for everyone.
Quote from: Iiyola on April 29, 2013, 11:01:59 PM
So the newbs don't get Tuluk. They certainly seem to get Allanak.
Where does the problem lay? The city? Or the player?
It isn't just new players, it's veteran players as well.
The problem in situations like this is never the player. A game exists to support the players, not the other way around.
If you try to change the player, you're just going to alienate them further most of the time.
Sorry if I've missed any suggestions among the complaints, but: how can we make Tuluk better?
It's simple: we kill the Muktep.
Quote from: Delirium on April 30, 2013, 12:11:53 AM
Sorry if I've missed any suggestions among the complaints, but: how can we make Tuluk better?
There were actually some really good suggestions a few pages back. They kinda got burried.
Someone should make a "kickass Tuluki commoner" guide like was done for nobles.
Things I'd like to know: How to start plots, How to get involved in plots, Common mistakes to avoid, How to poke people with subtlty, How to make and keep allies... And other things I know I'll think of later.
Subtle snarking 101
You are an upstanding citizen with a tribal fetish, southron fetish. Someone makes a remark about how you favor the southron trade over northern merchants. Do you really or are you just kanking southrons and they are snarking?
Someone is after your man and you wish to snark upon them. Remark how they pursue him like a southron or tribal. Your proper upstanding tuluki man would never be seduce by such blatant tit floppage!
Someone is employed by a Chosen and has done something blatant like discussing magickers in public. You imply they are clearly blind, deaf, and slow for how could someone so favored by the presence of His Chosen be so bad at learning propriety!
Iunno mebbe I'll come up with some others later.
PS - I have been informed this post is misleading. I am implying the thought/mindset BEHIND your snarking. Do not literally quote me, no self respecting Tuluki would say tit floppage.
Quote from: Quell on April 30, 2013, 12:43:51 AM
Someone should make a "kickass Tuluki commoner" guide like was done for nobles.
Things I'd like to know: How to start plots, How to get involved in plots, Common mistakes to avoid, How to poke people with subtlty, How to make and keep allies... And other things I know I'll think of later.
What kind of kick ass commoner do you want to make? There are some stark as night and day differences between an awesome half-elf warren rat trying to get by as a mule for the Akai Sjir who will never fully accept him ... and a born and bred circle bard ambitious to pick up the title of master, or win the Grey Hunt and become a Hlum noble ... even though both are commoners, and both could be kick ass, their experience and play will vary tremendously.
You see a rival Surif House member associating with the southern segment of the byn at the tooth, you turn to your companions in the tavern later and remark at how Amos of House Crappypants is probably making his wealth from selling wood in the black pit, and that any good and proud Tuluki citizen would -never- pilfer the Ivory's wealth and sell it to Southrons.
You overhear someone you dislike badmouthing a GMH leader. You smile and nod and encourage them to talk, then you way some brownnoser in their clan and ask them to send someone to the bar with a plain hood up because someone is trash talking them and you think they ought to hear it for themselves.
Cause no one will spam LOOK a hooded figure >.>
Not to be trolly or anything but >.> I just realized the GDB would be a good example of Tuluki jabs...
Greasy - Hooded figure shows up mysterious!
Iiyola - Because no one would LOOK spam a hood figure >.> *sarcasm*
^ Tuluk everyone! It's like forums, only less vehement swearing and flaming. More trolling.
Tuluk: it's full of trolls. Subtle trolls.
I typoed that.
*hooded
Edit: Oh wait I didn't!
LOOOOOOOOL!
Look to the GDB would-be Tulukis! Your snarkiness tutoring is available in abundance therein!
You -can- do it plebeians!
No. >:(
Are you no'ing that the plebeians can do it, the Trol-luk supposition, or just like, throwing a random no out there?
Trol-luk supposition
A hypothosis that the basis for Tuluki culture is to be both capable of dealing scathing and rage inducing commentary, intending to defame and victimize your foe whilst elevating your own social status, but at the same time keeping a perfectly straight face and appearing unbiased or possibly helpful, even though you are totally trolling the hell out of that guy.
Quote from: greasygemo on April 30, 2013, 02:54:41 AM
Trol-luk supposition
A hypothosis that the basis for Tuluki culture is to be both capable of dealing scathing and rage inducing commentary, intending to defame and victimize your foe whilst elevating your own social status, but at the same time keeping a perfectly straight face and appearing unbiased or possibly helpful, even though you are totally trolling the hell out of that guy.
While that is an excellent supposition, there are those who feel that such an approach would be of benefit to southerners, halfbreeds, and (especially) southron halfbreeds. Because of your
high great stature, they asked me (as a truly neutral party, and one who would show you all the respect you truly deserve) to ask you to further consider your position. It is with great embarrassment that I even bring this before your worthy attention, and I only do so because assuredly you will not be swayed from your unassailable position.
;D
This is the part of the movie where Allanak and Tuluk slap eachother, then suddenly start to make out.
It's really too bad that as soon as the thread becomes both serious AND civil at the same time, it derails into a lol-fest of silliness.
Message sent to new players and veterans who ask with all sincerety: don't bother asking serious questions about "HOW" to deal with Tuluk. You will just get laughed at. Y'know, because you just don't get it.
Message received.
Quote from: musashi on April 30, 2013, 01:23:01 AM
Quote from: Quell on April 30, 2013, 12:43:51 AM
Someone should make a "kickass Tuluki commoner" guide like was done for nobles.
Things I'd like to know: How to start plots, How to get involved in plots, Common mistakes to avoid, How to poke people with subtlty, How to make and keep allies... And other things I know I'll think of later.
What kind of kick ass commoner do you want to make? There are some stark as night and day differences between an awesome half-elf warren rat trying to get by as a mule for the Akai Sjir who will never fully accept him ... and a born and bred circle bard ambitious to pick up the title of master, or win the Grey Hunt and become a Hlum noble ... even though both are commoners, and both could be kick ass, their experience and play will vary tremendously.
Still waiting on an answer.
Quote from: Delirium on April 30, 2013, 12:11:53 AM
Sorry if I've missed any suggestions among the complaints, but: how can we make Tuluk better?
Here are my suggestions:
Stop reading the above debate, which seems to be filled with a mix of fact and opinion given as fact to the extent that it's impossible to untangle on from the other.
Read the docs.
Design your pc with the docs in mind.
Try to follow the docs.
When you fail to follow the docs chalk it up to the human condition winning out over Tuluki conditioning.
If there is fallout from your failure suck it up
When dealing with other people's pcs judge people more and more strongly based on the docs by their proximity to your pc.
I'd love to see a commers guide similar to the nobles guide. Because you know what? Learning to interact appropriately between social classes in Tuluk is hard. There! I said it! I'm new! *ducks head*
Docs say commoners and nobles are like, more familiar with each other than the south, but -how- familiar? How many dips of my head is taking it too far? Is it cool to buy one a drink? I know I can't touch one or sleep with one obviously, and that being -overly- respectful might be taken as either southernish or even sarcasm/fake flattery. So, there is this whole field of middle ground and I had the damnedest time (still do) figuring it out.
It's hard to explain everything because it's not one thing. It's a couple things. Tuluk and interacting in Tuluk in a way that gets you involved in higher level stuff and living for a while doing it requires you to know things you can't seem to get out of the docs as they are. I dun even know how to make it specific.
There is a lot of grey area in the interaction dynamic, so much so that it's hard for someone who doesn't have a lot of familiarity with the area ICly to learn how to behave. (not through docs, but actual play, hearing the random rules, laws, watching them get enforced, seeing the reactions of others in different situations, finding out bits of history type stuff that's not in the docs, watching how the different upper crusts interact between each other by viewing snippets of it etc)
So if I am retarded, go ahead and throw rocks at me or whatever. But I took me a long time to be able to figure out who cared about what and why and what would get me blank stares and what would get me thumbs up, and I'm still unsure sometimes.
And yes, it's clear I can't yell shitcock, and it's clear I should say "His Light" in parting. That whole area in between in a maze.
DO WANT COMMONERS GUIDE TO TULUK!
So I was thinking about the "get it" and "don't get it" argument we've seen throughout this, and some previous discussions. It really is a blanket statement that is difficult to have a constructive discussion about. Somehow, though, the need to use it apparently comes from somewhere.
I think it in part stems from situations where Player A (who is comfortable playing in Tuluk) experiences the PCs of Players B, C and D do things that don't adhere to documentation. It can be small-scale or large-scale things, and the greater inherent social status of Players B, C and D the more effect such actions potentially have on the current environment/playerbase - and the response from players such as A and their PCs.
For example, Kadian Bob is a Tuluki and Kadian Jill is Allanaki.
If Bob does things that do not seem to adhere to documentation (publicly speaking of magicks and sorcery), there will not be a whole lot of collective patience among Tuluk players. If Bob keeps this up (and somehow avoids being disappeared, reassigned or whatever), not visibly making an effort to stick to the norm, players will probably think of Bob's player as someone who "doesn't get it". Every PC in Tuluk should know that magick is outlawed and not spoken of in public. Going against the Tuluk-specific norms (especially if repeatedly), or not bothering to make an effort, is what I believe causes some people to think that some players "don't get it".
Jill on the other hand, would have the initial excuse of being Allanaki but that will only grant her that much leeway because if she intends on making a career in Tuluk, she better adjust. Of course, the player can decide that his/her PC doesn't understand why they shouldn't speak of magicks in public - or they foolishly try to make a statement against better understanding. Then it's all RP, with all the associated consequences etc. It can still be a lack of effort, interest or understanding from the player's part, especially if the PC's behavior turns into being detrimental to their own well-being.
What I've written above is basically about sticking to the documentation, incorporating it into your roleplay. It is not necessary to understand and consider each and every aspect of Tuluk society at all times to fit in, enjoy or thrive in Tuluk. The important part is being open-minded and realize that it is not Allanak, things are done differently, and to try to take culture/tradition/law etc into consideration when you play a Tuluki regardless of caste. Tuluk won't appeal to everyone and that's fine. Desert elves don't appeal to everyone either, nor does everyone skip around in joy at the thought of a Muarki waterslide. It's fine. However, I don't think Tuluk and the documentation is too complex, even if it is hard to wrap your head around some details - as a long-time Tuluk player I willingly admit that. Theft being an art form, for example. Or the general idea of an oppressive police state handling things behind close doors. For some reason an oppressive police state handling things in your face with fireballs seems easier to adjust to.
Just because a player doesn't enjoy playing in Tuluk doesn't mean they don't get it. The things I've said here could be applied to Allanak as well, but I think we tend to look at Allanak as the Armageddon norm - for the most part comparing Tuluk to Allanak and not the other way around.
No offense meant to anyone, so I hope none was taken. Just some thoughts on the topic.
I think that "getting" Tuluk is pretty simple to define, and my personal definition is similar to Barzalene's (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45373.msg749205.html#msg749205) and palomar's (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45373.msg749207.html#msg749207) definitions.
To me "getting" Tuluk means: 1) Having OOC fun playing within the documentation, and 2) If there's something about your Tuluki RP experience that you don't like OOC'ly, then you work within the documentation to improve it.
That's it!
Also note that it's not bad to not "get" Tuluk according to my definition. I don't personally "get" mudsex RP, but I don't dislike mudsex or mudsexers (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,43552.msg685463.html#msg685463). Is that bad?
Quote from: greasygemo on April 30, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
I'd love to see a commers guide similar to the nobles guide. Because you know what? Learning to interact appropriately between social classes in Tuluk is hard. There! I said it! I'm new! *ducks head*
It's hard to make a guide like this because a lot of things are situational. Did you have any specific things you'd want to see in a guide (asides what is mentioned here)?
QuoteDocs say commoners and nobles are like, more familiar with each other than the south, but -how- familiar? How many dips of my head is taking it too far? Is it cool to buy one a drink? I know I can't touch one or sleep with one obviously, and that being -overly- respectful might be taken as either southernish or even sarcasm/fake flattery. So, there is this whole field of middle ground and I had the damnedest time (still do) figuring it out.
How familiar depends entirely on the noble, the location, and your relationship with them. Let's say you're an employee or partisan of a noble; they might be more casual and relaxed with you because of that, or they might not. If they dislike you, they may want to be more formal. Is the noble in question at the bar or not? There are clues in noble behavior that can clue you in on how formal they want you to be with them. Time is also a factor; if you have known a noble for a long time, they might be more casual. The individual personality of nobles also varies widely.
The only answer I can give is "it's situational" and "consider the signs in the noble's behavior". Generally, this isn't such a big deal. When in doubt, you can be a little more formal just to be safe. A noble generally isn't going to be upset if you're extra polite.
QuoteThere is a lot of grey area in the interaction dynamic, so much so that it's hard for someone who doesn't have a lot of familiarity with the area ICly to learn how to behave. (not through docs, but actual play, hearing the random rules, laws, watching them get enforced, seeing the reactions of others in different situations, finding out bits of history type stuff that's not in the docs, watching how the different upper crusts interact between each other by viewing snippets of it etc)
This can also vary a lot depending on who the active persons in Tuluk are. Everybody has their slightly different flavor for how to play. An important part of Tuluk is also realizing who the power centers are. The nobles are obvious, but what commoners have what influence? This can be learned from observation. Don't give up, just keep playing! Most things can be learned that way, as long as you're actively trying.
QuoteSo if I am retarded, go ahead and throw rocks at me or whatever. But I took me a long time to be able to figure out who cared about what and why and what would get me blank stares and what would get me thumbs up, and I'm still unsure sometimes.
Breathe! This is Tuluk, we don't throw rocks. We throw cleverly crafted, subtle insults. ;)
More seriously, in any location it takes awhile to learn who cares about what. In Tuluk it can sometimes seem more pressing, just because the playerbase is typically much smaller. Just keep paying attention and noting how people act.