Both of these have been removed from the game and both helpfiles have been modified. We do have plans to revamp trap in the future, but its previous implementation relied on flash powder, which (in practice) did far more damage than the lore surrounding it indicated. It was also somewhat confusing IC, since people could refer back to the history page and determine that flash powder had been used by the equivalent of ancient Tuluki terrorists to blow up at least two buildings--yet the helpfile indicated that the substance was not a high explosive. After years of this, we have discussed it and we do not think that flash powder as implemented has a place in the game.
Are those files going to be /have been already changed to give the Tuluki terrorists some other means of blowing up buildings?
Thanks for clearing this up. I know I had some confusion about this with past PCs wanting to use it for nefarious purposes. Appreciate it.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 06, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Are those files going to be /have been already changed to give the Tuluki terrorists some other means of blowing up buildings?
Maybe so. At present, I think it's enough to let everyone know what happened OOCly to both, then tweak things on the history page a later on.
:C Flash powder was SO KHULE though!
Will existing objects transform into something useless (similar to what happened to the special attack pieces of armor)?
Cool I am actually for one glad, having been a player that got to fiddle with the old flash powder it was indeed crazy awesome. But I always felt that trap was a bit wonky and am really excited about seeing it turn into something a bit more useful perhaps and different is always cool in my book as long as said different is not OMGWTF!. Though with you guys different is ALWAYS interesting and good.
Thanks for letting us know OOC. Awesome by the way.
I would appreciate any implementation of the trap skill and therefore look forward to the future of this one.
Across a few master burglers I never figured out how to make it. And I had so, so many goals...
Achievement Failed...
Why not just make it do less damage, corresponding more to what the docs says, instead?
Don't get me wrong, poison traps, knife traps, ect, will be awesome if you go that route. In fact, I was 100% surprised to find out that wasn't what trap did. So I really look forward to seeing improvements to the skill, making it much more useful. But that could be added onto the trap skill, making flashpowder a higher skill level required, like say...Advanced.
Edit: As I understand it, those buildings could not have been blown up, if the staff were not in on it as well.
Sorry. I fell behind in this conversation. Does it exist virtually?
(It meaning Flashpowder, not this conversation)
Quote from: Nyr on March 06, 2013, 12:52:49 PM
Both of these have been removed from the game and both helpfiles have been modified. We do have plans to revamp trap in the future, but its previous implementation relied on flash powder, which (in practice) did far more damage than the lore surrounding it indicated. It was also somewhat confusing IC, since people could refer back to the history page and determine that flash powder had been used by the equivalent of ancient Tuluki terrorists to blow up at least two buildings--yet the helpfile indicated that the substance was not a high explosive. After years of this, we have discussed it and we do not think that flash powder as implemented has a place in the game.
The magic 8-Ball says no but I as usual could be wrong.
No. Flashpowder does not exist any more in the game, even in a virtual sense.
Quote from: Adhira on March 06, 2013, 08:21:22 PM
No. Flashpowder does not exist any more in the game, even in a virtual sense.
What was used to make all those blast marks where the north road used to be collapsed then?
Quote from: Fredd on March 06, 2013, 08:31:12 PM
Quote from: Adhira on March 06, 2013, 08:21:22 PM
No. Flashpowder does not exist any more in the game, even in a virtual sense.
What was used to make all those blast marks where the north road used to be collapsed then?
Magick.
I don't object. I just worry about forgetting.
Quote from: Fredd on March 06, 2013, 08:31:12 PM
Quote from: Adhira on March 06, 2013, 08:21:22 PM
No. Flashpowder does not exist any more in the game, even in a virtual sense.
What was used to make all those blast marks where the north road used to be collapsed then?
Not flashpowder. We're not going to go in to IC details, but that's where it is. Please, let's not get in to arguments over this.
Quote from: Fredd on March 06, 2013, 06:30:57 PM
Why not just make it do less damage, corresponding more to what the docs says, instead?
We could've done that. However, if it did less damage, we'd have to make it do something along the lines of the documentation. Well, it makes light and makes a small amount of damage. Hmm, is that explosive damage or not? No, it's more of a deflagration rather than a detonation. Well, can't deflagration seem a lot like a detonation in certain situations? Hrm, that's still kind of confusing, and I'm not sure Zalanthans would know the difference between the two, and I'm not sure if players would research the differences except for Dalmeth who kindly pointed us to this sometime last year...well, if it's a small amount of damage and needs to be smaller, then what is the point of making a trap at all? Kind of a lame "trap" if that's what it does. We then looked at how often it had been used and what it was being used for exactly. No one has really used trap in about two years, and most involvement with flash powder over the past six years has been using it as an illicit trade good. Assassins haven't really been utilizing trap to great effect to actually assassinate their intended targets anyway, at least not notably in the past several years. Given that scenario, it is a better idea to remove the skill, remove the substance, and revisit the skill at some time in the future.
Right. So that's what we did instead! We removed trap and flashpowder.
I never really understood the hows/what/whys of it when it was around...I just thought it was an RP tool...for, you know, black market trade, but didn't actually do anything. 0.o
Quote from: Nyr on March 06, 2013, 09:44:54 PM
No one has really used trap in about two years, and most involvement with flash powder over the past six years has been using it as an illicit trade good. Assassins haven't really been utilizing trap to great effect to actually assassinate their intended targets anyway, at least not notably in the past several years. Given that scenario, it is a better idea to remove the skill, remove the substance, and revisit the skill at some time in the future.
This part kind of seems like faulty logic. I can't explain why without getting into IC territory and arguing would be pointless anyways.
I'm glad staff have cleared this up and look forward to new trap possibilities in the future.
Quote from: Rhyden on March 06, 2013, 10:23:05 PM
This part kind of seems like faulty logic. I can't explain why without getting into IC territory and arguing would be pointless anyways.
I'm glad staff have cleared this up and look forward to new trap possibilities in the future.
It's pretty simple, what good is a damage-dealing trap that doesn't kill its target?
Pretty much, just trapping doors as you're running away from someone. Damage them enough, and they don't heal anymore. Then they have to turn back until they've slept it off.
How many places are you going to be running away from someone where there are doors? Almost none.
It has no tactical value, just a fear of any random object exploding on you.
Quote from: Nyr on March 06, 2013, 09:44:54 PM
Quote from: Fredd on March 06, 2013, 06:30:57 PM
Why not just make it do less damage, corresponding more to what the docs says, instead?
We could've done that. However, if it did less damage, we'd have to make it do something along the lines of the documentation. Well, it makes light and makes a small amount of damage. Hmm, is that explosive damage or not? No, it's more of a deflagration rather than a detonation. Well, can't deflagration seem a lot like a detonation in certain situations? Hrm, that's still kind of confusing, and I'm not sure Zalanthans would know the difference between the two, and I'm not sure if players would research the differences except for Dalmeth who kindly pointed us to this sometime last year...well, if it's a small amount of damage and needs to be smaller, then what is the point of making a trap at all? Kind of a lame "trap" if that's what it does. We then looked at how often it had been used and what it was being used for exactly. No one has really used trap in about two years, and most involvement with flash powder over the past six years has been using it as an illicit trade good. Assassins haven't really been utilizing trap to great effect to actually assassinate their intended targets anyway, at least not notably in the past several years. Given that scenario, it is a better idea to remove the skill, remove the substance, and revisit the skill at some time in the future.
Right. So that's what we did instead! We removed trap and flashpowder.
Part of it's non-use is that a lot of us couldn't fgure out how to make it. But it's all good, i hope to see some awesome possibilities.
Quote from: Dalmeth on March 06, 2013, 10:37:03 PM
Quote from: Rhyden on March 06, 2013, 10:23:05 PM
This part kind of seems like faulty logic. I can't explain why without getting into IC territory and arguing would be pointless anyways.
I'm glad staff have cleared this up and look forward to new trap possibilities in the future.
It's pretty simple, what good is a damage-dealing trap that doesn't kill its target?
Pretty much, just trapping doors as you're running away from someone. Damage them enough, and they don't heal anymore. Then they have to turn back until they've slept it off.
How many places are you going to be running away from someone where there are doors? Almost none.
It has no tactical value, just a fear of any random object exploding on you.
That's not what I was talking about. That part makes complete sense.
I was referring to 'nobody having used trap and flash powder for the past few years' as a reason for its removal.
Because it's kind of difficult to use trap and flash when it was next to if not completely impossible to obtain in the first place.
Of course, I could always be wrong, but there's really no point debating semantics since it's gone now anyways.
Again, I appreciate the clarification and look forward to the possibilities of a reworked trap. :)
Would have been cool to replace the hp damage with stun damage, and perhaps have the flash release be an overwhelming smoke that reels the senses and enough of it compassionate.
Quote from: Potaje on March 06, 2013, 10:56:47 PM
Would have been cool to replace the hp damage with stun damage, and perhaps have the flash release be an overwhelming smoke that reels the senses and enough of it compassionate.
And now you see one of my goals. I was going to try and invent smoke traps.
Quote from: Rhyden on March 06, 2013, 10:55:05 PM
I was referring to 'nobody having used trap and flash powder for the past few years' as a reason for its removal.
Because it's kind of difficult to use trap and flash when it was next to if not completely impossible to obtain in the first place.
I won't say it was easy to get, but there was certainly enough of it around. It took me about half an hour to remove it from every spot in the game, including removing it from an accessible shopkeeper that sold it.
Quote from: Fredd on March 06, 2013, 10:54:26 PM
Part of it's non-use is that a lot of us couldn't fgure out how to make it. But it's all good, i hope to see some awesome possibilities.
But you could figure out how to obtain it if you wanted to do so. It was definitely in-game.
Quote from: Potaje on March 06, 2013, 10:56:47 PM
Would have been cool to replace the hp damage with stun damage, and perhaps have the flash release be an overwhelming smoke that reels the senses and enough of it compassionate.
(http://i.imgur.com/x985xl.jpg)
...weed bomb?
Quote from: Fredd on March 06, 2013, 11:00:03 PM
And now you see one of my goals. I was going to try and invent smoke traps.
You'll want to keep staff apprised of stuff you want to invent with your PCs, particularly if it means new code and an assessment of its place in Zalanthas.
Flashpowder is gone. I am assuming then that the trap code itself is disabled as well, so that trapped items lurking in rarely accessed storage areas are now safe?
The reason I liked flashpowder was specifically because it was so rare. Someone who used flashpowder seemed even rarer than magickers, etc. And I was amused at all the wrong guesses about what organizations produced the stuff, but it was a nice bit of RP for folks to IC'ly try to figure out.
Quote from: Nyr on March 07, 2013, 09:13:35 AM
Quote from: Rhyden on March 06, 2013, 10:55:05 PM
I was referring to 'nobody having used trap and flash powder for the past few years' as a reason for its removal.
Because it's kind of difficult to use trap and flash when it was next to if not completely impossible to obtain in the first place.
I won't say it was easy to get, but there was certainly enough of it around. It took me about half an hour to remove it from every spot in the game, including removing it from an accessible shopkeeper that sold it.
Quote from: Fredd on March 06, 2013, 10:54:26 PM
Part of it's non-use is that a lot of us couldn't fgure out how to make it. But it's all good, i hope to see some awesome possibilities.
But you could figure out how to obtain it if you wanted to do so. It was definitely in-game.
Quote from: Potaje on March 06, 2013, 10:56:47 PM
Would have been cool to replace the hp damage with stun damage, and perhaps have the flash release be an overwhelming smoke that reels the senses and enough of it compassionate.
(http://i.imgur.com/x985xl.jpg)
...weed bomb?
Quote from: Fredd on March 06, 2013, 11:00:03 PM
And now you see one of my goals. I was going to try and invent smoke traps.
You'll want to keep staff apprised of stuff you want to invent with your PCs, particularly if it means new code and an assessment of its place in Zalanthas.
I was, on the pc I was trying it on. He was killed before I could finish figuring out how to make the flashpowder that would have been the base though. I typically send weekly reports on all of my pc's just to let the staff know what I've been doing and why. As well as asking them about some goals. At the time, i had full staff support for it.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 06, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Are those files going to be /have been already changed to give the Tuluki terrorists some other means of blowing up buildings?
Are the memory files in my brain going to also be retconned?
Doesn't seem like that big of a deal. If they used fire magick, torches and pitch or an obese clown-haired half giant's fart, it's been changed.
Flashpowder is gone dudes, it's done. Didn't really fit the theme anyway, imho.
How are magick hating, northern patriots going to use magick. Psh.
What's in the barrel, fellow rebel?
....magick?
I just smile when I look at the history page and see that entry because I was a part of it. Probably why I am irritated if they change the entry more than flash powder itself.
It's kind of sad, to me, when revisionist history is a change of what the *players* know, rather than a change of what the *PCs* know. I totally get that the history of the game, as far as IC lore is concerned, needs to be adjusted. But it'd be great if there were an OOC document, that was intended exclusively for OOC knowledge, so that the players can see the changes and progress and evolution of the game, as it really was.
So like - ICly - flash powder never happened, and any PC who tries to bring it up is summarily silenced (whether by making fun of him til he cries, or with a dagger to the chest).
But OOCly, we all know flash powder existed, we know it was used to do this that and the other thing, but for X Y and Z reason, it was eliminated from game play and the IC history changed to reflect its disappearance.
In short: I'm all for IC revisionist history. It makes sense, in a world such as Zalanthas. I am not for OOC revisionist history. It puts the kibosh on any OOC sense of accomplishment of the players who were involved in the actual events.
Quote from: Fredd on March 07, 2013, 07:54:14 PM
I was, on the pc I was trying it on. He was killed before I could finish figuring out how to make the flashpowder that would have been the base though. I typically send weekly reports on all of my pc's just to let the staff know what I've been doing and why. As well as asking them about some goals. At the time, i had full staff support for it.
Not quite. Being told that the whole concept would need staff support is not the same as actually having staff support for the whole concept. ;)
I've also edited the history page.
Quote from: Nyr on March 08, 2013, 08:37:25 AM
Quote from: Fredd on March 07, 2013, 07:54:14 PM
I was, on the pc I was trying it on. He was killed before I could finish figuring out how to make the flashpowder that would have been the base though. I typically send weekly reports on all of my pc's just to let the staff know what I've been doing and why. As well as asking them about some goals. At the time, i had full staff support for it.
Not quite. Being told that the whole concept would need staff support is not the same as actually having staff support for the whole concept. ;)
On my report dated Nov. 11 2011 the Staff member in charge of my clan told me it was absolutely possible to do. Sorry, i took that as staff support.
We also further discussed it over other reports. It was to be a long time goal of research for my guy ;)
And I was informed I would need another Guild's assistance as well.
I wasn't your clan staff then, but I did see that report among others, one of which said that you would need staff support in order to see that come about. Just clarifying that we do not appear to have given you carte blanche in the past to make smoke bombs IG. You can even search your request history to confirm that if need be.
Quote from: Nyr on March 08, 2013, 09:45:34 AM
I wasn't your clan staff then, but I did see that report among others, one of which said that you would need staff support in order to see that come about. Just clarifying that we do not appear to have given you carte blanche in the past to make smoke bombs IG. You can even search your request history to confirm that if need be.
Didn't say I had Carte Blanche. Just said I had support to work towards my goal. I'm sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
As I have said all I need to say on this topic (that I really look forward to a revamped trap skill with kewl new traps) I'm bowing out of the convo at this point.
Hrm... What's that I smell in the air?
Is that...
Hrm...
I think it is...
An impending locking?
I don't smell it. I have a cold.
Possible and feasible are not always the same.
Quote from: Potaje on March 06, 2013, 10:56:47 PM
Would have been cool to replace the hp damage with stun damage, and perhaps have the flash release be an overwhelming smoke that reels the senses and enough of it compassionate.
Honestly, how is HP damage different from stun damage? If it doesn't knock you out on the first hit, how is it significant? How does it change how the victim will act?
I would actually discourage stun damage, as it's a bit too easy to stack on for those who can and leaves characters just as dead over a given period of time.
Only ever saw flashpowder once and it didn't do much, even blasting some chump full in the face when he opened a pack. I think traps, as a whole, shouldn't be IG. Too open to PK abuse and getting around the crim code to randomly murder people.
As much as I've disliked some retcons (hey now, sammiches), this one I get. Trap and flashpowder were designed to work together, and when people as a collective can't or don't understand how flashpowder actually works (ie, it not actually being an explosive), then it's better to remove them from the game. It clears up a need for people to be corrected over and over on it and come away feeling like 'Hey, so and so got to do it in the history timeline but it doesn't work that way now?!!?', and it also forces people to be more patient or creative or take a more direct route to the murder part of the murder, corruption, betrayal tagline. Which can only be good, I would think.
Either that or you could always shit-mug a guy. ;)
(disclaimer: So I've heard on the board, I've never actually been able to bring myself to do it in game to see if it works or not.)
Small little derail, can you make explosives from guano?
Quote from: Barzalene on March 09, 2013, 09:29:58 AM
Small little derail, can you make explosives from guano?
You need some sulfur, too.
To bad we don't have any volcanoes around...
Shit bombs. I like where this going.
Quote from: musashi on March 09, 2013, 10:47:07 AM
Shit bombs. I like where this going.
Only available to bynner assassins.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 09, 2013, 09:29:58 AM
Small little derail, can you make explosives from guano?
Alternatively, produce saltpeter from urine.
QuoteUrine has also been used in the manufacture of saltpeter for gunpowder. In this process, stale urine placed in a container of straw hay is allowed to sour for many months, after which water is used to wash the resulting chemical salts from the straw. The process is completed by filtering the liquid through wood ashes and air-drying in the sun. Saltpeter crystals can then be collected and added to brimstone and charcoal to create black powder.[4][5][6][7][8]
shitpissbombs
Quote from: Mood on March 16, 2013, 02:25:16 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on March 09, 2013, 09:29:58 AM
Small little derail, can you make explosives from guano?
Alternatively, produce saltpeter from urine.
QuoteUrine has also been used in the manufacture of saltpeter for gunpowder. In this process, stale urine placed in a container of straw hay is allowed to sour for many months, after which water is used to wash the resulting chemical salts from the straw. The process is completed by filtering the liquid through wood ashes and air-drying in the sun. Saltpeter crystals can then be collected and added to brimstone and charcoal to create black powder.[4][5][6][7][8]
shitpissbombs
Saltpeter can be found under dung of omnivores.
Whenever things get retconned, like the observatory, flashpowder, things like that, I always think of the same IC reason. It helps me feel completely better about all of it, and makes perfect sense to me.
Nilazi's ate it. They're like the Langoliers.