I've recently begun to play again after a long hiatus, and naturally, I've started trying to get my current RL social circle involved. It's hard to even begin to tell someone about Armageddon who's never played a text-based online anything, so I began with the T'zai Byn. It's common knowledge that the Byn, to a fault, welcomes players of any ability, from emote-spewing oldbies to -- especially -- winceworthy newbs. If your PC follows their rules and their schedules, and doesn't do anything stupid, you, as a player, will graduate with a working knowledge of game syntax, documentation, and good roleplay. It got me to wondering how many of us came to Armageddon knowing nothing about the gameworld and stuck with it because of the T'zai Byn. Just out of curiosity, do you feel like it's fulfilling its intended purpose as a clan? If you're playing with someone who's new to the game, do you encourage them to look into the Byn as an option for their character? As a leader PC, do you utilize the Byn's services as escorts/guards?
The T'zai Byn certainly made me the man I am today. ;D
Quote from: Ourla on November 01, 2012, 03:24:28 PM
I've recently begun to play again after a long hiatus, and naturally, I've started trying to get my current RL social circle involved. It's hard to even begin to tell someone about Armageddon who's never played a text-based online anything, so I began with the T'zai Byn. It's common knowledge that the Byn, to a fault, welcomes players of any ability, from emote-spewing oldbies to -- especially -- winceworthy newbs. If your PC follows their rules and their schedules, and doesn't do anything stupid, you, as a player, will graduate with a working knowledge of game syntax, documentation, and good roleplay. It got me to wondering how many of us came to Armageddon knowing nothing about the gameworld and stuck with it because of the T'zai Byn. Just out of curiosity, do you feel like it's fulfilling its intended purpose as a clan? If you're playing with someone who's new to the game, do you encourage them to look into the Byn as an option for their character? As a leader PC, do you utilize the Byn's services as escorts/guards?
While I don't agree that the T'zai Byn's "purpose" is to teach newbies how to play the game, I do agree that due to the fact it is so awesome it is a great place for new players to learn how to play properly, and for old players to get even better.
I don't think we send newbies to the T'zai Byn because it is a newbie school, I think we send them to the T'zai Byn because who better to teach new players how to play properly than the best players in the game?
:)
That being said, if not for the T'zai Byn, I wouldn't be playing today probably. I remember learning how to emote from an elf named Kyros, a Trooper. I remember Sergeant's Amurac and Stevith teaching me how to play the game and use syntax etc...etc...
So yeah, I learned how to play the game in the T'zai Byn.
I think the T'zai Byn is a fantastic place for newbies to learn the game.
I'm not really sure if it's inteded that the Byn be a newbie starting place. IT's jsut hioghly suggested. Honeslty I think a newbie would have a much better time with a GMH house in one of the major cities when there's people playing frequently in it. The rules and subservience can be pretty limiting. While a GMH can be more dangerous, I don't really think dying is what keeps people from playing. I'd rather die then be bored and limited in what I can do, and sometimes clans like the Byn can be like that.
However if I don't know whether a GMH has a lot of player in it I always send them to the Byn, because they can usually always get interaction.
Edit: Personally I didn't like the Byn till I played for a couple years. Now I love it.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 01, 2012, 03:30:37 PM
I'd rather die than be bored and limited in what I can do
It's for this reason I would steer newbies away from any clan with restrictions like "you can't leave the city alone" or "every morning, you must spar/train". Their purposes notwithstanding, these restrictive rules lend to a very boring experience unless there is a healthy level of membership and activity in the clan.
I never joined the Byn as a newb, but was luckily taken under the wings of some great players in another clan. However, I have seen Byn leaders do an amazing, patient job with new players and think it works as a great environment for teaching every aspect of the game, from endowing their characters with decent coded skills to having mandatory RP which basically serve as RP lessons when you have old and new players cleaning the latrines together.
I think it should be made clear that IC rules are not OOC rules. New players should be encouraged to find their own fun in the scope of their character. Just because the Byn says they're not to leave the gates...doesn't mean they -can't-. But that will quickly become a lesson into how easy it is to die.
I think the Byn is a great place for new players, and is probably less boring than an older player might think - to someone who is new and just learning the world. Other clans can be awesome too, but it mostly depends on the activity level and patience of the leaders/other players.
I think one of my first few PCs ended up in the Byn.
Ahh, Grinzul...
That was a wicked experience. The bar brawl that ensued between me and another guy, perfectly matched, and then WHAM! He connects, we both stop...
And stare. For a long time. And then we start in again. And neither of us connects the rest of the brawl xD
I return to the Byn every few characters. Some of my most fond memories of this game come from that clan.
I played in the T'zai Byn as a newbie, but I gained my bearings in this game in a wide variety of clans, and the Byn isn't the best fit for every player and every character. When new players ask me for suggestions on what to do now that they're in game, I typically suggest that they define their character's profession (hunter, crafter, fighter, etc) and then use that as a basis to pick out a clan that needs someone of that profession, by looking over the rumor boards and having their PC talk to other PCs. They can pick out any clan at all, within reason (GMH, noble houses and militias of both cities, and of course, the Byn. The city elven tribes might be good for a newbie that started as an elf). It can be harder for a new player to find and identify the groups of independents that form but those can be good for a new player too.
The upside to this is that the player-base is very newbie-friendly, from what I've seen, and the chance that a new player will find a newbie-friendly leader in any desired clan is pretty high. It also means the new player can pick a clan that is actually active in their city and during their playtimes, since the Byn is not necessarily active in both of the cities all of the time. The downside is that there are a lot of clans, and they fluctuate in activity - sometimes very quickly - so it can be hard for a new player to narrow down the choice for his PC.
Is the Byn a good place to start, and a good group to play with? Absolutely, but ultimately, it is but one of many.
No comment, as I have never to date played a Bynner. But welcome back Ourla!
I think I've had one bynn, c since I've been around. Like many houses and things the restriction on when you can leave or when can't you is kinda dull. Sadly the fucker that took me under his wing isn't playing atm. *ahem ahem* though they did teach me a lot about Arm, for that I'm grateful seeing as how arm is far different in many ways then the other muds that I came from.
I personally don't feel the Byn or the only newbie friendly clan's out there, that any clan can be newbie friendly given the right person to give them a kick in the ass or what have you.
This is a polarizing topic. There are those who swear by the Byn unconditionally; there are those who swear by it with the condition of having active leadership when you play in it. Then, there are those who hate being in it. What those players who hate being in it don't sometimes realize is that those attitudes result in the Byn providing them as a player with a very useful function.
One char I played some years back started in the Byn but quickly found a happier home in the Kuraci Fist. Both are just as good for newbs into military membership, partly because I am in the camp that the Byn is only good with active leadership. Being stuck in Luir's, with its small size, isn't any more annoying than being stuck in one of the major cities. Luir's has a major benefit of being the truck stop of Zalanthas with regular, easy-to-watch traffic. The Fist is a great way to get to know the "rural" cultures of Zalanthas if that is what attracts the newbie more.
Importantly, the Byn provides a useful service to all players in this world regardless of whether they are in it or not. Byn players are often willing to interact with newbs in or out of their clan, for one. For two, as I mentioned above, the vileness, might-makes-right belief system, and grit of the Byn provides people with important enemies and targets for murder plots and conflict. In this way the Byn helps everyone and newbs are bound to learn from the Byn eventually even if they never play in it.
As such, I don't think being in the Byn is a requirement for newbs to learn to play at all. A fantastic alternative is to play in Tuluk, and make a friend there. With the [IC info redacted] in Tuluk, the one major game-learning and character-training perk of the Byn becomes entirely moot.
As an aside, thank you Ourla for trying to bring friends into Arma. I would do it too, but I have no friends who are interested in text games. I also live in one of the shittiest places in the country for nerdy hobbies like this. Good luck to them, though.
It can be a fun clan and a decent place for green players to learn the game a bit. I didn't play there for many years after I started and learned the game through playing several other places.
Some of my most epic memories comes from the relationships my characters have built while in the Byn. If it weren't for the Byn, I can honestly say that I personally probably wouldn't have stuck it out with Arm. It's funny because the game I came from that I thought had a better rp focus I can't even stand to log into now. The thing about the Byn that I havfe found most enjoyable comes from the bonding moments you get while going through the ranks. It gives you a unique, tight bond that you rarely get in the other clans.
I've got to say I'm along the same lines as Harmless, and it really depends on how active the Sergeants are and how good they are about keeping things going. Not only is it a good learning clan for a newb, but I also feel that it is a great clan to get 'leadership' knowledge and staff interaction.
To be honest, I've never understood where the 'hate' of the Byn comes from, mostly because it tends to be one of my favorite 'clans'.
Byn hate is usually just clan hate in general. Some people just feel smothered by clan duty schedules and rules that keep them from traveling/exploring.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think the majority of players are that way.
I'm that way, but a lot of it has to do with being an off-peak player so as such, those kind of structured roles typically mean I'm idling/solo RP'ing by myself in an empty training hall a majority of the time.
The strength of the T'zai Byn as a newbie clan rests on the sergeants being willing to spend time with new players to help get them up to speed with things. In that sense, it is not an official policy (AFAIK) but rather part of what the players are willing to do for the game.
TB is a newbie clan because players believe it is, and direct new players towards it. Its advantages are:
- Lack of political affiliation--you don't need to know who Lord Fancypants is, you just need to take his money and do the job
- Survival--provided food and water let you survive long enough to learn a little about character development in Arm
- Travel--maybe not alone, but you get to see big chunks of the world
- Structure--it is harder to twink out when following the clan schedule
- Low social status--learning the power structure of Zalanthan culture is more effective when you are at the bottom of the pile
- Combat training--not just character skills, but all the little OOC skills that come with combat experience, like reading screen-scroll
- Diversity--long enough in the Byn, and you might work with humans, elves, half-elves, dwarves, rinthers, foreigners, and maybe even a hidden magicker or two
Sure, there are downsides:
- Structure--Not getting to wander around and look for trouble like a homeless killer
- Boredom--The clan tries to prevent you from doing exciting things that are suicidal in the long term
- Playtimes--Like Musashi said, if you are a member with the wrong playtimes, you spend a lot of time staring at the wall while OOCly surfing reddit
Personally, I have had good experiences with the Byn as a newbie clan, both as a newbie and as a clan leader.
Quote from: Morrolan on November 02, 2012, 01:10:52 PM
The strength of the T'zai Byn as a newbie clan rests on the sergeants being willing to spend time with new players to help get them up to speed with things. In that sense, it is not an official policy (AFAIK) but rather part of what the players are willing to do for the game.
TB is a newbie clan because players believe it is, and direct new players towards it. Its advantages are:
- Lack of political affiliation--you don't need to know who Lord Fancypants is, you just need to take his money and do the job
- Survival--provided food and water let you survive long enough to learn a little about character development in Arm
- Travel--maybe not alone, but you get to see big chunks of the world
- Structure--it is harder to twink out when following the clan schedule
- Low social status--learning the power structure of Zalanthan culture is more effective when you are at the bottom of the pile
- Combat training--not just character skills, but all the little OOC skills that come with combat experience, like reading screen-scroll
- Diversity--long enough in the Byn, and you might work with humans,
elves, half-elves, dwarves, rinthers, foreigners, and maybe even a hidden magicker or two
There's thispolicy I've noticed over the last year and a half of sergeants being pretty adamant about refusing elves.
I wonder why?
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 02, 2012, 01:14:08 PM
There's thispolicy I've noticed over the last year and a half of sergeants being pretty adamant about refusing elves.
I wonder why?
Sergeants are not required to take anyone they do not want to. When I started with the Byn, they refused to take rinthers, but took elves.
To speculate, this may have to do with the OOC development of city elf clans giving IG options for elves to clan up.
I actually didn't play in the Byn until way later on... and only like once. So I've never really had a good Byn experience I guess.
My first character ever (I had some background in online RPing) join up with an Indie Hunting Group and was one of my longest lived characters. The group really encouraged helping newbies and would teach newbies quite well. It was a good time and I learned a lot about the world and how to get around it and survive the game.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 02, 2012, 01:14:08 PM
There's this policy I've noticed over the last year and a half of sergeants being pretty adamant about refusing elves.
I wonder why?
This isn't an official T'zai Byn policy.
Simply put, Sergeants can hire or turn away anyone for any reason. They probably just do not like filthy scumbag thief neckers and have no desire to have them in their unit. ;)
The other fact of the matter is that it really sucks to go on a desert outing with a C-elf in your party.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 02, 2012, 04:25:43 PM
The other fact of the matter is that it really sucks to go on a desert outing with a C-elf in your party.
One of the reasons why I can't see any clan that frequently travels would hire Elves. They're liabilities because of this.
Kurac comes to mind, a place where Elves can even make Sergeant.
There's been at least one elf sergeant in the Byn.
It can be done. Though its a drag at times.
However, Spec-apping an elf into the clan with some running ability should be possible.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 02, 2012, 05:13:39 PM
There's been at least one elf sergeant in the Byn.
Played an elf sergeant in the Byn, so maybe two?
When I played there was an elf Lieutenant.
I was thinking of one back in like 2002. But yeah, rare but not unheard of.
Still a pain in the ass to go on missions with. :P
Personally, I hate the idea of the Byn being the "newbie" clan. I think because it's so OOC jarring.
ICly it is there to make money. ICly it is compiled of thugs and such just this side of of the law, and isn't particularly honorable. ICly a lot of its contracts and RPTs focus on fighting/dying 1st. And so it feels pushed to me when I see everything trying to push new PCs (players) into the Byn, hen they run to interact and recruit Bynners into their houses, or when runners are given (or forced into being given because a player is making a true merc PC) a bit of an IC break because they are OOC learning.
Don't get me wrong, I think there should be a clan or way to help ease new players into the game. And I know players who play in Byn are great about showing PCs the ropes. But, I just don't think it is good to continue with something that makes little IC sense because of OOC tradition.
I probably wouldn't be here of I had not been guided to the Byn while a newbie.
I'm pretty sure that runners who've had more experience don't get the leeway that much.. And I know for a fact that you get a mildly easier time if you're new and are in a clan not the Byn.
Quote from: My 2 sids on November 03, 2012, 12:46:10 PM
Personally, I hate the idea of the Byn being the "newbie" clan. I think because it's so OOC jarring.
I agree.
Find me the staff written doc that says the Byn is a newbie clan.
I can't help but feel when I hear people say its a newbie clan they are trying to take a shot at them but still has an escape plan if someone calls them out on it.
The Byn is just a good clan and most good clans are perfect for newer players.
EDIT:
I stayed and never had a character in the Byn.
there are ways to make a c-elf keep up with a troupe of mounted riders. I know of one c-elf that could just bout keep up with any ig mounts. So it's not nearly as bad as many people think if properly planned.
INDIE_RANGER_IN_GRASSLANDS_WITH_VET_FRIEND(s) is the best newbie friendly clan ever.
Quote from: Malken on November 03, 2012, 01:53:51 PM
INDIE_RANGER_IN_GRASSLANDS_WITH_VET_FRIEND(s) is the best newbie friendly clan ever.
Ranger being the key and operative word. Heh.
Might even go as far as saying VET_FRIEND is the key.
I can't think of a better place IC to put hopeless noobs.
Quote from: My 2 sids on November 03, 2012, 12:46:10 PM
Personally, I hate the idea of the Byn being the "newbie" clan. I think because it's so OOC jarring.
ICly it is there to make money. ICly it is compiled of thugs and such just this side of of the law, and isn't particularly honorable. ICly a lot of its contracts and RPTs focus on fighting/dying 1st. And so it feels pushed to me when I see everything trying to push new PCs (players) into the Byn, hen they run to interact and recruit Bynners into their houses, or when runners are given (or forced into being given because a player is making a true merc PC) a bit of an IC break because they are OOC learning.
Don't get me wrong, I think there should be a clan or way to help ease new players into the game. And I know players who play in Byn are great about showing PCs the ropes. But, I just don't think it is good to continue with something that makes little IC sense because of OOC tradition.
You be wrong, bro. For one reason:
The Byn is the
only clan in the game that it ICly & according to the docs makes sense that they would hire unskilled commoners. It makes perfect IC sense that an unskilled commoner with no connections who wants to escape menial labor would join the Byn. And they are the only clan in the game that will literally hire
everybody.
It seems to me a much bigger IC break when merchant houses pick up completely unskilled commoners as hunters or soldiers when employees of these Houses are among the wealthiest commoners in the Known and every independent hunter and mercenary would love to be hired by them. Militia I can see grabbing unskilled commoners, but a lot of them probably get drubbed out during training and even then the hiring pool is limited racially/by citizenship. But the elite soldier Noble Houses? Again, probably should not be hiring unskilled. I understand leaders can be desperate for warm bodies so this is something regularly overlooked, but that's something with much stronger ground of IC complaint than unskilled commoners being directed towards the Byn.
And they are the only clan in the game that will literally hire everybody almost everybody depending on what sergeants are playing.
Still, it is a good newbie clan. I didn't start Byn, my first char ran into a Red Fang and I got my code lessons from one of those guys. Welcome to Armageddon at its most extreme <.<
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 03, 2012, 03:49:26 PM
Quote from: My 2 sids on November 03, 2012, 12:46:10 PM
Personally, I hate the idea of the Byn being the "newbie" clan. I think because it's so OOC jarring.
ICly it is there to make money. ICly it is compiled of thugs and such just this side of of the law, and isn't particularly honorable. ICly a lot of its contracts and RPTs focus on fighting/dying 1st. And so it feels pushed to me when I see everything trying to push new PCs (players) into the Byn, hen they run to interact and recruit Bynners into their houses, or when runners are given (or forced into being given because a player is making a true merc PC) a bit of an IC break because they are OOC learning.
Don't get me wrong, I think there should be a clan or way to help ease new players into the game. And I know players who play in Byn are great about showing PCs the ropes. But, I just don't think it is good to continue with something that makes little IC sense because of OOC tradition.
You be wrong, bro. For one reason:
The Byn is the only clan in the game that it ICly & according to the docs makes sense that they would hire unskilled commoners. It makes perfect IC sense that an unskilled commoner with no connections who wants to escape menial labor would join the Byn. And they are the only clan in the game that will literally hire everybody.
It seems to me a much bigger IC break when merchant houses pick up completely unskilled commoners as hunters or soldiers when employees of these Houses are among the wealthiest commoners in the Known and every independent hunter and mercenary would love to be hired by them. Militia I can see grabbing unskilled commoners, but a lot of them probably get drubbed out during training and even then the hiring pool is limited racially/by citizenship. But the elite soldier Noble Houses? Again, probably should not be hiring unskilled. I understand leaders can be desperate for warm bodies so this is something regularly overlooked, but that's something with much stronger ground of IC complaint than unskilled commoners being directed towards the Byn.
No
But I guess it comes down to what are you defining as "unskilled commoners"
Quote from: kayza on November 03, 2012, 04:21:07 PM
No
But I guess it comes down to what are you defining as "unskilled commoners"
30 years old assassins and rangers who fight like they've just picked up a sword for the first time in their life, duh. ;)
Quote from: Malken on November 03, 2012, 04:30:46 PM
30 years old assassins and rangers who fight like they've just picked up a sword for the first time in their life, duh. ;)
I know the matter of starting skills is a sore point, but I think the issue is best simplified as being able to do something that people might actually value.
Fresh warrior types only seem like "unskilled commoners" based on who they are fighting. To played warriors sure they seem weak. But to non-combatants they are still instant death.
Unless you are saying unskilled because you are a pickpocket trying to be a warrior.
A newbie pickpocket's best place to be in is a cell with a Templar. As that is where they are gonna end up soon anyways.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 03, 2012, 03:49:26 PM
Quote from: My 2 sids on November 03, 2012, 12:46:10 PM
Personally, I hate the idea of the Byn being the "newbie" clan. I think because it's so OOC jarring.
ICly it is there to make money. ICly it is compiled of thugs and such just this side of of the law, and isn't particularly honorable. ICly a lot of its contracts and RPTs focus on fighting/dying 1st. And so it feels pushed to me when I see everything trying to push new PCs (players) into the Byn, hen they run to interact and recruit Bynners into their houses, or when runners are given (or forced into being given because a player is making a true merc PC) a bit of an IC break because they are OOC learning.
Don't get me wrong, I think there should be a clan or way to help ease new players into the game. And I know players who play in Byn are great about showing PCs the ropes. But, I just don't think it is good to continue with something that makes little IC sense because of OOC tradition.
You be wrong, bro. For one reason:
The Byn is the only clan in the game that it ICly & according to the docs makes sense that they would hire unskilled commoners. It makes perfect IC sense that an unskilled commoner with no connections who wants to escape menial labor would join the Byn. And they are the only clan in the game that will literally hire everybody.
It seems to me a much bigger IC break when merchant houses pick up completely unskilled commoners as hunters or soldiers when employees of these Houses are among the wealthiest commoners in the Known and every independent hunter and mercenary would love to be hired by them. Militia I can see grabbing unskilled commoners, but a lot of them probably get drubbed out during training and even then the hiring pool is limited racially/by citizenship. But the elite soldier Noble Houses? Again, probably should not be hiring unskilled. I understand leaders can be desperate for warm bodies so this is something regularly overlooked, but that's something with much stronger ground of IC complaint than unskilled commoners being directed towards the Byn.
The Byn is a good clan for new players but it isn't the only good clan for new players. That said, it isn't the only good clan for new characters, either. Not many clans have official documentation defining how skilled a recruit must be (certainly not any I've been in). Based on what goes on in game, it makes more sense to say that the "recruit" rank of any particular hiring clan is reserved for anyone who hasn't proven themselves capable of achieving the next rank yet. If you're a Byn runner, that usually simply means you've been in for less than a year, haven't been excessively insubordinate, etc.. For other clans, the demands are different. The nature of the recruit/runner rank is that there aren't a lot of prerequisites to enter it, only to move up from it. That doesn't necessarily make other clans less newbie-friendly - they just offer a different environment in which to learn the game, so that a new player who wants to play a mercenary, can play a mercenary - but the new player interested in crafting can play a crafter, the new player interested in playing a rogue can play a rogue, and so on - and still be able to learn the basics of their role by following a leader PC able to offer guidance to the character, and by extension, the newbie.
If an employee of House Salarr does something stupid that is 'mildly' insultive to my haughty, corrupt, whatever some kind of high up position type person, I ... might strike back in one way or another, or use it as leverage to somehow bend Salarr to my will.
If a Bynner runner does it to me, I probably wouldnt give too many shits about it. Because ... seriously, what can you really expect from those idjits, who are just one step away from rinthi thugs, beggars, or simple people. That is the rep the Byn has. And that makes it a wondrous reason why its a great clan for newbies to join. Newbies ... screw up sometimes, and it's good, and it's fine, and in fact it's quiet wondrous. So while yes, Byn is really influenced by the Sargeants preferences that runs it. They can go from a band of bumbling fools, to an elite unit that outperforms Scorps and Wyverns in discipline and effectiveness. But I still believe that Byn is a great place to send newbies to and I've known at least a number of clearly new players who thrived in the Byn and probably learned to love Arm through Byn.
Personally, I had much more respect to sargeants who hired bumbling fools more then going all elite. Every single house is all about elite. Merchant or Noble. Elite this, elite that. Pfffth. Byn has more respects for the fact that they are 'not' elites.
It's a great clan that is good for new players. As is a few others.
But saying it is a newbie clan, is just bad form.
Why was this topic even started, OP seems to just be trolling.
And I feel like I took the bait.
Quote from: Ourla on November 01, 2012, 03:24:28 PM
\-- especially -- winceworthy newbs.
That's my troll proof.
Ourla is of course, a notorious troll.
It does present a problem on the reverse end: If you have a clan made up of a lot of newbies and a few seasoned players, guess what happens when you go out on an escort mission? A lot of them die. I think it is where the hesitation at hiring them comes from.
"Hey, wasn't there like... ten of you when we left. I only see four now."
"Ohhh yeah, those guys? They died."
"......"
I personally never played in the Byn myself, and I suppose can still be considered somewhat of a newbie too. Just from my interactions from an outsider perspective, it doesn't seem the place if you want a terribly long-lived character, but it does lend itself to learn coded combat, which is always helpful. I think any clan or group can lend itself to improve someone's RP and knowledge of the game though, so I wouldn't peg any of them as "a newbie clan." Ulitimately, it's being around other players that helps people learn a game :)
Trolling on the Byn is a sport just using the search can show that.
Quote from: Belimedra on November 03, 2012, 07:46:51 PM
It does present a problem on the reverse end: If you have a clan made up of a lot of newbies and a few seasoned players, guess what happens when you go out on an escort mission? A lot of them die. I think it is where the hesitation at hiring them comes from.
"Hey, wasn't there like... ten of you when we left. I only see four now."
"Ohhh yeah, those guys? They died."
"......"
I personally never played in the Byn myself, and I suppose can still be considered somewhat of a newbie too. Just from my interactions from an outsider perspective, it doesn't seem the place if you want a terribly long-lived character, but it does lend itself to learn coded combat, which is always helpful. I think any clan or group can lend itself to improve someone's RP and knowledge of the game though, so I wouldn't peg any of them as "a newbie clan." Ultimately, it's being around other players that helps people learn a game :)
And the problem with that is ... ? Byn is the only 'overt' clan, people actually need to pay to, to join. When Borsail loses a recruit, it's annoying. All that lost investment in time, food, water, and lodging. When Borsail lose a full fledged wyvern, it's a frigging tragedy. When Byn lose a runner, unless he showed some exceptional promise, it's just one big shrug. They've paid for their lodging and food anyway. If they died early enough, Byn might've actually profited from that. At the same time, Byn (usually) sees more action then any other military clan, so needless to say, the danger's greater. That's icly speaking. ooc, I'm sure it's extremely taxing on the sergeants. He spends all these hours teaching the ropes to this newbie and he goes and gets himself killed in the silliest way possible. As a Master of Silliest Deaths myself, I feel great respect for byn sergeants who really stick through it and dont lose heart too early.
Quote from: Dar on November 03, 2012, 08:55:47 PM
As a Master of Silliest Deaths myself, I feel great respect for byn sergeants who really stick through it and dont lose heart too early.
Hear, hear!
I think the T'zai Byn provides a few things: stability, schedule, and consistency.
Stability, in that while there are certainly 'slumps' in activity, such as having relatively few Troopers or Runners, or only one/two active Sergeants, you are more likely to find interaction in the T'zai Byn than not. I've played in the clan where there are 8 off-peak PC's at a given time, or just as many with little overlap at peak. As a new player coming into the game, it may be essential to have this level of interaction, so the game world can be experienced first hand through PC-to-PC conflict/plots/relationships, rather than solo RP. Let's face it -- If you join a clan like House Salarr, or House Borsail, you may go through some indeterminate slump periods. A Family Member/Noble storing or dying (esp. in GMH where there is often a high turnover for sponsored roles) can really take the wind out of the sails for a Clan. Weeks can go by where you only see one PC in your House, etc. For a newbie, I think this can be a death knell. They'll stop logging in, because they don't know how to make fun for themselves yet. They rely on other PC's to show them the way, while they blunder through their first five PC's (though I guess people are getting better at this recently, it took me maybe 5 or 6 before I truly 'got it'). I think the T'zai Byn is a good testing ground in this sense.
Schedule, because while other clans may or may not have a schedule, the Byn invented it. It's hard, it's tried, it's true. If you're caught skipping chores, you get whipped. If you skip more than a few times, you get worse. The idea that there is a strict schedule that everyone in the Company must adhere to helps pull PC's out of their hiding holes and into the same space together, so they can interact, get to know one another, make friends (or enemies) and otherwise incubate plots. Sweeping the Workshop isn't about sweeping the workshop -- Sure, you can toss out a few emotes, pick up a broom, and so on. Instead, it's about the interaction born from being in the same place, at the same time.
Consistency, because even a newbie can become Amos the Terrible, the warrior trained in the Byn. The Byn spars more than any other clan in the game, and it allows even newbies to the combat code to get to a pretty decent level of combat ability, especially if they travel on contracts. Anyone who has trained in the Byn becomes a worthy prospect to other organizations. If a newbie can stick out the rough incredibly non-intuitive MUD syntax/code (say if they are a first time MUDder, which is how it goes now-a-days), get into the theme of the world, get into the idea of the T'zai Byn and being a mercenary, and makes it to Trooper level and graduates -- They're almost guaranteed a job with a GMH or a noble house. At this point, they will have (hopefully) seen the world over, killed some Gith, nearly been eaten by spiders, sweated out a storm in the Fort, amongst other activities, and really gotten in character. Now they can work for Salarr or Borsail without derping on "how do I stop guarding".
This isn't to say other Clans aren't suited for newbies, they are just not as well suited. A newbie can survive in House Kadius, or Salarr, or Borsail, and I have every iota of confidence in our player base. I think the people who play text based RPI's are incredibly intelligent for the most part, and have great imaginations and reasoning skills. A newbie that tries in earnest to get it, will likely get it. But I think the T'zai Byn is an invaluable resource for newbies, yes.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 03, 2012, 04:46:18 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 03, 2012, 03:49:26 PM
Quote from: My 2 sids on November 03, 2012, 12:46:10 PM
Personally, I hate the idea of the Byn being the "newbie" clan. I think because it's so OOC jarring.
ICly it is there to make money. ICly it is compiled of thugs and such just this side of of the law, and isn't particularly honorable. ICly a lot of its contracts and RPTs focus on fighting/dying 1st. And so it feels pushed to me when I see everything trying to push new PCs (players) into the Byn, hen they run to interact and recruit Bynners into their houses, or when runners are given (or forced into being given because a player is making a true merc PC) a bit of an IC break because they are OOC learning.
Don't get me wrong, I think there should be a clan or way to help ease new players into the game. And I know players who play in Byn are great about showing PCs the ropes. But, I just don't think it is good to continue with something that makes little IC sense because of OOC tradition.
You be wrong, bro. For one reason:
The Byn is the only clan in the game that it ICly & according to the docs makes sense that they would hire unskilled commoners. It makes perfect IC sense that an unskilled commoner with no connections who wants to escape menial labor would join the Byn. And they are the only clan in the game that will literally hire everybody.
It seems to me a much bigger IC break when merchant houses pick up completely unskilled commoners as hunters or soldiers when employees of these Houses are among the wealthiest commoners in the Known and every independent hunter and mercenary would love to be hired by them. Militia I can see grabbing unskilled commoners, but a lot of them probably get drubbed out during training and even then the hiring pool is limited racially/by citizenship. But the elite soldier Noble Houses? Again, probably should not be hiring unskilled. I understand leaders can be desperate for warm bodies so this is something regularly overlooked, but that's something with much stronger ground of IC complaint than unskilled commoners being directed towards the Byn.
The Byn is a good clan for new players but it isn't the only good clan for new players. That said, it isn't the only good clan for new characters, either. Not many clans have official documentation defining how skilled a recruit must be (certainly not any I've been in). Based on what goes on in game, it makes more sense to say that the "recruit" rank of any particular hiring clan is reserved for anyone who hasn't proven themselves capable of achieving the next rank yet. If you're a Byn runner, that usually simply means you've been in for less than a year, haven't been excessively insubordinate, etc.. For other clans, the demands are different. The nature of the recruit/runner rank is that there aren't a lot of prerequisites to enter it, only to move up from it. That doesn't necessarily make other clans less newbie-friendly - they just offer a different environment in which to learn the game, so that a new player who wants to play a mercenary, can play a mercenary - but the new player interested in crafting can play a crafter, the new player interested in playing a rogue can play a rogue, and so on - and still be able to learn the basics of their role by following a leader PC able to offer guidance to the character, and by extension, the newbie.
In practice that is true because most clans always want more people. ICly though, it doesn't make sense to me that so many of these wealthy clans are so willing to completely pay for room & board and apprentice random unskilled commoners. ICly my characters will assume unless you're something special, you will have a hard time convincing a noble or merchant house to hire you. So when an obviously unskilled, unaffiliated commoner asks a character of mine about work, I will always direct them either to menial labor or the Byn.
If they RP having experience hunting or soldiering or thieving (even if it's purely in their character bio) it's another story. Most newbie PCs tend to be blank slates, though.
(Crafters don't really count; they count as "skilled" out of char gen.)
ALL houses employ menial laborers though. It's still OOC to think that someone would hold House Kadius responsible if some floor-sweeper didn't bow properly. Or, take offence (might notice, but not take offence) if some cooking-assistant of Fale got into a fight with some stable hand of Tor. Such is life for nobility who must put up with annoying commoners in general. *In fact the house docs often back-up just how menial 1st ranking hunters and such are to the house.
I'd even go on to state that having a probational period, hiring a newbie PC, as a cook or armor scrubber or whatever, would be not only totally IC but would help add to the over-all Clan experience for everyone. Part of what we do is somehow decide that every single clan member is someone's spy or has a hidden agenda -- well, that's just not true.
Quote from: Belimedra on November 03, 2012, 07:46:51 PM
It does present a problem on the reverse end: If you have a clan made up of a lot of newbies and a few seasoned players, guess what happens when you go out on an escort mission? A lot of them die. I think it is where the hesitation at hiring them comes from.
"Hey, wasn't there like... ten of you when we left. I only see four now."
"Ohhh yeah, those guys? They died."
"......"
Having played quite a bit of bynnage, more players die running outside, breaking the law, wanking it in the 'rinth than to contracts by a large margin.
Quote from: My 2 sids on November 04, 2012, 10:34:29 AM
ALL houses employ menial laborers though. It's still OOC to think that someone would hold House Kadius responsible if some floor-sweeper didn't bow properly. Or, take offence (might notice, but not take offence) if some cooking-assistant of Fale got into a fight with some stable hand of Tor. Such is life for nobility who must put up with annoying commoners in general. *In fact the house docs often back-up just how menial 1st ranking hunters and such are to the house.
I'd even go on to state that having a probational period, hiring a newbie PC, as a cook or armor scrubber or whatever, would be not only totally IC but would help add to the over-all Clan experience for everyone. Part of what we do is somehow decide that every single clan member is someone's spy or has a hidden agenda -- well, that's just not true.
Yes, but sometimes it is true. Zalanthas is a land of paranoia, and something the Noble Houses and Greater Merchant Houses have that the T'zai Byn decidedly does not is: politics.
I've still not played a Bynner.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on November 04, 2012, 11:49:28 AM
Quote from: Belimedra on November 03, 2012, 07:46:51 PM
It does present a problem on the reverse end: If you have a clan made up of a lot of newbies and a few seasoned players, guess what happens when you go out on an escort mission? A lot of them die. I think it is where the hesitation at hiring them comes from.
"Hey, wasn't there like... ten of you when we left. I only see four now."
"Ohhh yeah, those guys? They died."
"......"
Having played quite a bit of bynnage, more players die running outside, breaking the law, wanking it in the 'rinth than to contracts by a large margin.
Definitely true. In fact, you're happy when the runner dies in front of the unit because at least you can sell their gear.
The hardest part of being a Byn sergeant isn't recruiting/training. It's networking, schmoozing with other leaders who will give you contracts. Other leaders have to do that for plots too, of course, but not for the day-to-day operation of the clan! Hard stuff.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 04, 2012, 02:12:34 PM
The hardest part of being a Byn sergeant isn't recruiting/training. It's networking, schmoozing with other leaders who will give you contracts. Other leaders have to do that for plots too, of course, but not for the day-to-day operation of the clan! Hard stuff.
So a Byn sergeant has to network, schmooze, work with the recruits and regulars, go out on contracts.... when do they have the time to actually teach on an OOC level?
The Way is a powerful networking-schmoozing tool, trust me.
You are all making good points on the newbie openness of the Byn. I always planned to eventually make a Byn character.
My only real problem was the double meaning in calling it a newbie clan.
..... Trust me, you don't fuck with the Byn. They're newbie supportive, that doesn't mean you can assume the players are all n00bs. Some of them Bynners I've seen (a couple years back) could rock some ultra dangerous mobs worlds. Hard.
Quote from: kayza on November 04, 2012, 03:38:28 PM
You are all making good points on the newbie openness of the Byn. I always planned to eventually make a Byn character.
My only real problem was the double meaning in calling it a newbie clan.
This may hurt to hear, but get over yourself. Ourla wasn't trolling in this post. When Ourla trolls you, you know it. There are some very experienced trolls out there, and if you're really looking to get trolled, it can happen.
There's no double meaning. The T'zai Byn IS regarded as a good place to point newbies. Some newbies take it, some don't. I played Arm back in the 90s and never joined the Byn. Never really got it. I knew Dark Sun, I knew how to codedly murder crap, but after my two steel-bracer owning half giant got murdered in the wastes by a trio of mantis during a massive sandstorm and my vivaduan elf buddy "Talon" left me to die, I just gave up.
Then I came back years later, started up a human warrior. Figured what the fuck. How can I go wrong with a human warrior. Got elf'd out of my starting cash by an elf in a byn cloak who said he could get a Sargeant there if I gave him the 300 coins. I bit. Sargeant found me a few days later as I was starving, took me in on a mission of mercy, and goddamn it was a GREAT experience being in that clan. I loved it. Real rags to riches type shit.
The Byn is a wonderful experience most times, no matter what your skill level, and the most wonderful thing about it is that if you don't like it, you can always fuck off and leave and suffer the consequences. Leave the nice way, and sometimes bad shit won't happen... but if you're really bored, leave the mean way, and shit gets REAL interesting.
Yeah, there's a ton of awesome clans out there for newbies. But the most important thing for a newbie isn't the clan, it's the mentor. Someone who has enough of a connection to remember what it's like being a newbie, enough ability to teach the things they know, and enough wisdom and strength of character to not lapse into OOC ville and form some bullshit OOC connection with a newbie just because it makes things easier.
I'm not going to go off on a "back in my day" rant about how shit "used to be better" because people didn't spend every fucking moment they were online in a chat client arranging shit with other players. I know I'm not alone, several of the well heeled vets still see things this way, and still don't do the OOC networking bullshit... but a TON of the newer players do, because some of the leaders drove it in to their heads that they should, which is a load of... goddamnit, said I wasn't going to rant.
Anyway, the Byn rocks. Whether in training diapers or a rocking chair with a shotgun, it rocks.
Newbie clan
vers
The clan is great for newbies
Each give a different feel.
You are wrong if you think it doesn't.
That was the only thing I am arguing.
As far as the OP original intentions, I'm fine with believing they were all positive.
I suspect the people who understood any part of the topic of this thread as the first meaning of the concept are very few, Kayza. Perhaps only one.
No there is another insane person reading it also... somewhere.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 04, 2012, 06:16:50 AM
I think the T'zai Byn provides a few things: stability, schedule, and consistency.
Stability, in that while there are certainly 'slumps' in activity, such as having relatively few Troopers or Runners, or only one/two active Sergeants, you are more likely to find interaction in the T'zai Byn than not. I've played in the clan where there are 8 off-peak PC's at a given time, or just as many with little overlap at peak. As a new player coming into the game, it may be essential to have this level of interaction, so the game world can be experienced first hand through PC-to-PC conflict/plots/relationships, rather than solo RP. Let's face it -- If you join a clan like House Salarr, or House Borsail, you may go through some indeterminate slump periods. A Family Member/Noble storing or dying (esp. in GMH where there is often a high turnover for sponsored roles) can really take the wind out of the sails for a Clan. Weeks can go by where you only see one PC in your House, etc. For a newbie, I think this can be a death knell. They'll stop logging in, because they don't know how to make fun for themselves yet. They rely on other PC's to show them the way, while they blunder through their first five PC's (though I guess people are getting better at this recently, it took me maybe 5 or 6 before I truly 'got it'). I think the T'zai Byn is a good testing ground in this sense.
Schedule, because while other clans may or may not have a schedule, the Byn invented it. It's hard, it's tried, it's true. If you're caught skipping chores, you get whipped. If you skip more than a few times, you get worse. The idea that there is a strict schedule that everyone in the Company must adhere to helps pull PC's out of their hiding holes and into the same space together, so they can interact, get to know one another, make friends (or enemies) and otherwise incubate plots. Sweeping the Workshop isn't about sweeping the workshop -- Sure, you can toss out a few emotes, pick up a broom, and so on. Instead, it's about the interaction born from being in the same place, at the same time.
Consistency, because even a newbie can become Amos the Terrible, the warrior trained in the Byn. The Byn spars more than any other clan in the game, and it allows even newbies to the combat code to get to a pretty decent level of combat ability, especially if they travel on contracts. Anyone who has trained in the Byn becomes a worthy prospect to other organizations. If a newbie can stick out the rough incredibly non-intuitive MUD syntax/code (say if they are a first time MUDder, which is how it goes now-a-days), get into the theme of the world, get into the idea of the T'zai Byn and being a mercenary, and makes it to Trooper level and graduates -- They're almost guaranteed a job with a GMH or a noble house. At this point, they will have (hopefully) seen the world over, killed some Gith, nearly been eaten by spiders, sweated out a storm in the Fort, amongst other activities, and really gotten in character. Now they can work for Salarr or Borsail without derping on "how do I stop guarding".
This isn't to say other Clans aren't suited for newbies, they are just not as well suited. A newbie can survive in House Kadius, or Salarr, or Borsail, and I have every iota of confidence in our player base. I think the people who play text based RPI's are incredibly intelligent for the most part, and have great imaginations and reasoning skills. A newbie that tries in earnest to get it, will likely get it. But I think the T'zai Byn is an invaluable resource for newbies, yes.
Rei, I think this is a strong post with well-articulated points. I didn't play in the Byn for the first two years of my Arm. "career", but after a certain mildly-deranged mace-wielder of mine started her career there, it holds a special place in my heart.
To amplify one of your later points: When I've been explaining Arm. in general and the Byn in particular to non-MUDder friends (at least half-a-dozen of whom I've managed to hoodwink into playing eventually =) ), I've always cited the later as "the quintessential Armageddon experience". It's filthy, it's gritty, and it's all but guaranteed to be violent. There's also brutality galore, and it gives newbies (and vets who have been playing more genteel roles) a "worm's eye view" of the game-world.
The Byn used to be considered the official newbie clan, I'm not sure how that's changed, but I guess from some of the responses here that reputation has waned some. As a military organization the Byn is a good way for hack and slash type mudders to adapt and transition to an RPI environment. It has a combat component that is familiar. New players get to spar and even sometimes "kill stuff", giving them a feeling of fulfillment as they are exposed to the roleplay of others. However to really be successful at this the Byn has to overcome the same problems other clans (especially military clans) suffer from, and that is lack of members (to go do things) and active and involved leadership (to take them there to do the things). But when the Byn is active with a good leader, it shines like no other (especially where new players are concerned).
Travel
The Byn should be travelling around to different places, cities, villages, outposts, outlying areas. Each of these offer new players opportunities to learn about the world. Depending on where they go, they can learn about all kinds of things, that will help them with future character. Basically an IC education.
Neutrality
Because the Byn will work for anyone that pays them, that creates many opportunities for a new player to be exposed to the different clans in the world, mostly noble and merchant houses. This is more of a political education. New players won't learn as much as if they were playing in each individual clan, but they'll gain a broad overview of what each clan does and how different organizations interact with each other, while being able to keep their head down being and staying out of the fray (unless you're a sarge).
Friendships
The Byn doesn't make anyone take life oaths (that I know of). That means members come and go and sometimes even return. If a new player manages to survive and decides to join another clan, lets say a noble house. The friends that they have from their days in the Byn can become invaluable allies, especially if they're members of other organizations. This isn't necessarily a boon just to new players, but to anyone that plays in the Byn.
Aside from the nature of the clan to force players together to interact giving new players an opportunity to learn and appreciate the role-play our game has to offer, the Byn offers a unique way for new players to receive a broad OOC education about the IC game world. How it works and interacts, more so than other clans.
Quote from: My 2 sids on November 04, 2012, 02:18:21 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 04, 2012, 02:12:34 PM
The hardest part of being a Byn sergeant isn't recruiting/training. It's networking, schmoozing with other leaders who will give you contracts. Other leaders have to do that for plots too, of course, but not for the day-to-day operation of the clan! Hard stuff.
So a Byn sergeant has to network, schmooze, work with the recruits and regulars, go out on contracts.... when do they have the time to actually teach on an OOC level?
Honestly I suspect it's the most difficult clan leadership roles of its kind. Though my view is a bit colored because I didn't have nearly enough time to devote to the game when I played one.
The Byn is a good starting spot for newbs. However, my first character joined Salarr in Tuluk who at the time were also very newbie-friendly.
The Byn (like every other clan) is only as awesome as their leaders. So is the Byn the official "Newbie Clan?" I don't think so.
But if you're a newbie who is willing to learn, with a modicum of patience, and a good leader, the Byn may be exactly for you.
As I said, Salarr was my starting newbie clan, but I didn't actually "get" the gritty atmosphere of Zalanthas until I rolled my first Bynner.
House Kadius was my newbie clan. It was technically House Tor, but I joined House Tor into an empty clan with my first character and just ended up storing. Played SoI or something for two weeks in the meanwhile, hated it, rolled a new character on Armageddon. Joined House Kadius. House Kadius held my hand until I was all grow'd up, and here I am.
So I'm with the "I think the Byn is a great newbie clan but I think just about any active clan would also be a great newbie clan" crowd.
There have been some really excellent posts here. Reiloth kind of summed up what I wanted to tell my friends about the game. The Byn isn't OOCly intended to be for new players, but it's very realistically the best option for your first PC (sergeants and active clannies notwithstanding, as many of you have pointed out). If you hunker down and follow their rules, you'll graduate with an imminently hireable character whose RP options are much, much more varied than they were as a 1-hour tavern-sitter. I've long felt that the Byn was underappreciated and I hope this thread gets some players thinking about spicing up life in that clan for others.
Also, a shout-out to leader PCs... don't forget to hire the Byn! I had a northern templar a few years ago who was running a fricking huge RPT, and was responsible for hiring extra security. My staff kindly reminded me that I should arrange a contract with the Byn. They did a great job and saw some deep shit that they never would have otherwise. Keep those shitcloaks hopping with missions. Need a pretty fur for your pillows at the next tea party? Get the Byn. Need some muscle to show off when you send your envoy shopping for you to Luirs? Get the Byn. Don't want to wipe your own ass? Get the Byn!
Incidentally, my noob clan wasn't the T'zai Byn, either... it was House Kadius and First Hunter Ojun that had the kindness and fortitude to correct my multitude of mistakes without ever breaking character to use the OOC command. Patient teachers could be anywhere in the game, but they'll always be in the Byn.
No Ourla. The Byn sucks. And you must accept it.
When the Byn is full it's great, when it isn't, it is difficult.
I've had many characters in the Byn and everytime the Byn is full with 2-3 people at each task during the given in-game week then it is a blast. You get in trouble, you make friends, enemies, watch, learn, listen. Its all great interaction and it leads to more plots than you would think. That is the best part about the Byn. A gruff, shit-crested outside, with a soft, nuance-filled interior.
My favorite friends and enemies have all been inside the Byn at some point or another.
Since you will be playing with friends(I assume) and all around the same relative time, you should have a great time and also provide entertainment and fun for those who are around at the same time because they will have a core group to work with.
I say do it.
When my first Byn Sarge was just a wee runner, he was fingered for raiding by some other bynners (who were, of course, the ones out raiding).
Those hours in the cell, waiting to see if he would die...that was some good RP.
My first character was a total disaster... After that, I joined the Byn, and THAT, my friends, is what sucked me in. I don't really care about whether or not people want to call it a "newbie-friendly" clan or not... I can just say that, from personal experience, it's a good place to start.
In fact, this thread makes me want to roll up a Bynner RIGHT NOW as my come-back-to-the-game character. ;D
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on November 19, 2012, 06:24:42 PMIn fact, this thread makes me want to roll up a Bynner RIGHT NOW as my come-back-to-the-game character. ;D
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on November 19, 2012, 06:24:42 PM
My first character was a total disaster... After that, I joined the Byn, and THAT, my friends, is what sucked me in. I don't really care about whether or not people want to call it a "newbie-friendly" clan or not... I can just say that, from personal experience, it's a good place to start.
In fact, this thread makes me want to roll up a Bynner RIGHT NOW as my come-back-to-the-game character. ;D
Success! :D
@Aaron Goulet............yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssss
Edit: Although we don't want the Byn to take over Allanak >.>
Quote from: titansfan on November 19, 2012, 10:16:28 PM
Edit: Although we don't want the Byn to take over Allanak >.>
Easily remedied. Reopen the northern warband/units for play?
I was more speaking on the topic of Aaron Goulet's ability to kickass and screw anyone and everyone over around him.....but that would be nice.
I think you're all forgetting what a ghost town the northern units always were. If the Byn feels active that's because they're all in one place more or less. Which breeds interaction, which breeds activity, and round & round we go...
Quote from: Delirium on November 19, 2012, 11:14:58 PM
I think you're all forgetting what a ghost town the northern units always were. If the Byn feels active that's because they're all in one place more or less. Which breeds interaction, which breeds activity, and round & round we go...
The simple fact of the matter is that the northern units will usually have trouble recruiting, because it's much easier to survive and skill up around Tuluk on your own, if you know what you're doing. You also don't get dragged into batshit insane RPTs that have very good odds of getting you killed.
That too. The batshit insane RPTs are the best part though...
Byn is more an Allanak thing anyway. Rough and tumble, no-nonsense and covered in shit.
Do they even have latrines up in Tuluk?
From what I have seen of Tuluk, everyone just poops out flower petals.
Yes, but smelling the flower petals causes an agonising death behind closed doors, that is the Tuluki way ;)
Quote from: John on November 20, 2012, 06:54:14 AM
Do they even have latrines up in Tuluk?
Of course they do.
The northern compound is still used AFAIK, whenever the Sergeant sees a need for the unit to go North for a contract or something. How often and for how long is up to the sergeant's discretion (though staying there too long is a bad idea for reasons already mentioned, even if you don't have staff nudging you to focus on the South). Some sergeants who take far-flung major contracts will end up there a lot, some will spend their entire careers in Allanak.
Quote from: BleakOne on November 20, 2012, 02:18:19 AM
Byn is more an Allanak thing anyway. Rough and tumble, no-nonsense and covered in shit.
When Olgaris' dung code was new, I played a Bynner covered in shit (smelly-tagged equipment). All the other Bynners made fun of me, and eventually a sergeant made me pay to get it all cleaned. :(
Awww wtf? :-\
Quote from: Delirium on November 19, 2012, 11:41:36 PM
That too. The batshit insane RPTs are the best part though...
If you're on a throw-away character, sure, it might not be a big deal to die as a newbie. If you're running one of the only 3 special apps you get per year, it's a rather different equation--especially if you're on number 3 of 3.
I don't buy the "the Byn is more an Allanak thing" argument, though. You have plenty of license to be rough and gritty in Tuluk. It seems that most people choose not to, but that's a player issue, not something intrinsic to the T'zai Byn.
I think a large part of the "I can't be gritty in Tuluk" mindset stems from the fact that people wanna be gritty in the same tavern that has echos about nobility and templarate and bar maids hastily keeping the place immaculate spamming through on high frequency loop.
A shame that tavern is "the main tavern" for the city. But meh. Sorry. Derail.
The only reason it's the main tavern is because the PCs make it that way. ;)
Quote from: boog on November 20, 2012, 09:50:46 AM
The only reason it's the main tavern is because the PCs make it that way. ;)
Well, it's also the new character spawn point.
Which of course is aimed there because it is the main tavern...
I wouldn't be sad to see the Sun King's Sanctuary go the same way as the Trader's Inn (? I think I forgot its name) in Allanak.
Quote from: boog on November 20, 2012, 09:50:46 AM
The only reason it's the main tavern is because the PCs make it that way. ;)
This is more or less true, and also it is a meta conception. People populate all of the taverns in Tuluk about equal, i'd say, from my observation deck.
Incoming hatecycle turnaround.
Quote from: musashi on November 20, 2012, 09:03:25 AM
I think a large part of the "I can't be gritty in Tuluk" mindset stems from the fact that people wanna be gritty in the same tavern that has echos about nobility and templarate and bar maids hastily keeping the place immaculate spamming through on high frequency loop.
A shame that tavern is "the main tavern" for the city. But meh. Sorry. Derail.
You ever really TRIED to be gritty and foul in Tuluk?
I have with a few characters.
Two of them resulted in Lirathan templars actually pulling me aside and giving me etiquette lessons.
One of them gave me pants. Both times I was never in a fancy tavern. Both times the templar wasn't even present. My naughty verbal gritty exploits actually resulted in me being reported to authorities, and authorities ACTUALLY responded, AND there weren't even any threats, I was just being foul.
Now, say the same things (and I have) in the Gaj in Allanak, no one notices.
Let's be honest. Tuluk is easy mode. My Allanaki characters go to Tuluk to vacation.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 20, 2012, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: boog on November 20, 2012, 09:50:46 AM
The only reason it's the main tavern is because the PCs make it that way. ;)
Well, it's also the new character spawn point.
Which of course is aimed there because it is the main tavern...
I wouldn't be sad to see the Sun King's Sanctuary go the same way as the Trader's Inn (? I think I forgot its name) in Allanak.
It did. Then they rebuilt it.
The problem with the T'zai Byn is that they don't let elementalists/mindbenders/sorcerers/monsters/demons/half-elves join. Especially in Tuluk!
Oh wait... it's Tuluki hate cycle, not the Byn's turn yet.... my bad.
[/sarcasm]
Tuluk and Allanak are similar, but there are difference. The differences between the Sun King's Sanctuary and The Trader's Inn are an example of one difference. The fact that Tuluk's nobles work more closely with "the common people" and don't have the same cultural physical distance defined as a norm (based on their history/the rebellion) makes it different than Allanak. The IC justification is that the nobility lost their aversions to being around commoners during the Allanaki occupation of the Northlands and the subsequent rebellion and liberation from it. The surviving nobles had little choice who they worked in order to achieve victory. They had to work with grebbers/raiders/criminals/hunters/muls/mutants/etc. Some of the existing noble houses (at least one) were commoners and weren't granted nobility until -after- the liberation of the North. They have a recent commoner ancestry. This difference is illustrated in the game. The Tuluki noble quarter is open to commoners. Each noble estate has a bell outside that anyone can come and ring, if they desire, and gain the audience of someone inside (one would probably need to wish up about this, or coordinate with staff, but it's IC feasible). I think it's a shame players in Tuluk don't seem agree, treating Tuluk much like Allanak in that respect. I would think Tuluki nobility would understand that it was a bunch of grubby dudes that smell like a stable that liberated Tuluk, that they (the nobility) used to be the same as those grubby dudes and have have nothing to be ashamed of. Maybe even realizing that those grubby dudes could also become Nobles one day (ala the Grey/Great Hunt). Maybe the bards of Poet's Circle could start a Tuluki history appreciation day.
Also, the Sun King's Sanctuary used to be a building next to a stable and a wagon yard, sitting all alone on the side of the road with little to nothing for miles. All kinds of people came and enjoyed, mixing and mingling together. It was the hub of the Northlands. At the time it was the same high class place it is now, even more so. It had wines, a spice den, game room, dance hall, dining room, all that. I don't think it's changed to an -even more- upscale establishment. If Tuluki nobles/templars need a more isolated/exclusive establishment to hang out in to be noble, there is the Tea House in The Poet's Circle available to serve that need (Tuluk has no shortage of taverns).
If anything more people should hang out in the Sanctuary. It can be like the Bard's Barrel used to be, a sort of middle ground where all types are considered to be OK.
Oh, I was jut commenting from what people seem to say on the forums! I really don't know, since Tuluk and I haven't danced in a bit. :)
Love it!
This thread starts with someone asking if the T'zai Byn in 'Nak is a good place for new players and ends up with someone saying they were forced to wear pants in Tuluk.
I... I...
I did not mean to start a hate cycle of Tuluk.
Krath's sake people...
Quote from: Malken on November 20, 2012, 04:13:49 PM
Love it!
This thread starts with someone asking if the T'zai Byn in 'Nak is a good place for new players and ends up with someone saying they were forced to wear pants in Tuluk.
You are saying this like it wasn't a predetermined conclusion.
Any time you talk about the T'zai Byn, at some point someone will mention how wussy Tuluk is, and then someone else will mention something about not wearing pants.
It is a given.
That being said I do not hate Tuluk. I like Tuluk. It is so completely different from Allanak that when I travel there it makes me feel like I have actually GONE somewhere instead of the whole world just being "the same".
But, let's not pretend like Tuluk is half as hardcore as Nak. It just isn't.
Quote from: Desertman on November 20, 2012, 04:58:00 PM
It is a given.
It is known. Most of my time spent with Tuluki characters were pantless, as well.
Oh Snap!On a more serious note, yes, playing a Bynner right now in 'Nak would be a great time. Lots of long lived leaders and so many players in it it's crazy.
Let's take the Tuluki derails to this thread? (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44640.new.html#new)
I think this comment pertains more to the T'zai Byn than the nuances of Tuluk v. Allanak, so:
I'm just going to pop in and say I've played T'zai Byn Tuluk a few times, and I enjoyed it. I don't think it's impossible to keep a T'zai Byn unit alive up there at all (however most do end up transferred south when somebody stores since that's the main hub) - though I will say that I don't think you can play the same sort of PC you would in Allanak either, at least not without some consequences. And should you really expect anything different? Mercenaries can exist outside of the 'dirty, stinky, crude meathead' trope.
Also...
there is more than one tavern in Tuluk
Quote from: Wolfsong on November 20, 2012, 07:31:25 PM
there is more than one tavern in Tuluk
That's the problem.
Quote from: Desertman on November 20, 2012, 03:16:26 PM
Two of them resulted in Lirathan templars actually pulling me aside and giving me etiquette lessons.
One of them gave me pants.
Oh, Gage Gritshaw...
Why not app a Bynner sergeant that works out of Tuluk and vacations in the South? As a Bynner sergeant in the south, why not take more trips North to season your runners and let 'em go shopping? As a long-lived leader PC in Tuluk, I rarely saw shitcloaks just hanging out.
Oh no...A derail!
It seems the purpose of this thread has run its course. The T'zai Byn as a newbie clan...Yes, and no!
You can continue your discussion on Tuluk vs Allanak in the current iteration of hatecycle. Thanks!