While this is mostly directed towards Allanak, it can be taken within the context of just about any role, in any location in the game. This topic has been discussed in the past, and I rant, but with the recent influx of new players I've been seeing, I thought it appropriate to stress this.
Hate!(or Decameron's Spiteful Guide to Hate)
There are certain acceptable prejudices in game, and this is based out of your up-bringing, where you grew up, and your own character's background. There are, of course, exceptions to all of these hatreds or stereotypes, but for the vast majority, you have to understand that you would be just that, the exception.
What would be acceptable prejudices for your common Allanaki?Disliking/distrusting someone based upon their race (elves, dwarves, etc), where they come from (i.e. if they are a foreigner, if they came from the 'rinth, Tuluk, etc), if they are Gemmed, mutants (Don't think that baby-arm hanging out of that guy's head was a 'blessing from the Highlord," or those who associate with any of these individuals publicly in an amiable fashion, as stated here, below.
Quote from: Booya on May 25, 2012, 04:58:50 PM
If your friend is chummy with a gemmed or rinthi rat, let that create tension between you.
What are unacceptable prejudices?Disliking/distrusting someone based upon their sexual preference, the color of their skin or based upon sex. There is no sexism in Zalanthas (regardless of how this actually works out is a little less than I'd like to see at times) Men and women are EQUAL. There's no, "You hit like a woman." Or, "Stop being a girl!" The color of a person's skin ought not to be a factor, either. Those who are -really- pale, are typically albinos or have enough station to have avoided the sun-light for an extended period of time (i.e. Nobility), and while this might be a little strange considering the settings, no one is going to tell a Noble they look weird (without potential serious consequences). There is no discrimination based upon the decision of two men wish to share a bed, nor two women. As long as those men and women are both of the same race, it's all just another day in His City.
But I want to get along with everyone, making people feel bad, makes me feel bad, Decameron.Fuck 'em. When that person received karma, and told themselves, "Hey wow! That krathi looks he'd be awesome to play!" - They knew what they were getting into. People ought to look and read the documentation of their race/background locations before they app their character. This means that they accept whatever hatreds will be passed along their way as a given. This isn't a bad thing, conflict due to prejudices can be great RP.
But that Krathi is a Gemmed in your example, that makes it okay.No. It doesn't. Just because the rest of the World would kill them for what they are, doesn't make you 'friends'. It doesn't mean that without that Gem around their throat, they wouldn't kill you in an instant. That 'rinther that seems so 'nice,' comes from the worst part of the City, and they survived there for a long time, and chances are, it wasn't by being nice. That elf or half-breed isn't like you, they are all thieves, or half-thieves, sneaking about in the shadows and taking 'sid from your pocket when you aren't looking. Your people invaded the North, took it over, raped and murdered a good portion of the population, before being removed from the City, just take it into consideration, next time you want to pal-around with your Northern friends.
This makes me seem so callous, though! What ca-You walk across Meleth's every day. There are dead children in the streets with flies eating out their eyes, starving men and women begging with their last breaths in the streets. Do you stop every time and weep, giving them your 'sid? No. You walk along thinking, "Man, can't wait to get me those new sweet boots in the bazaar!" You are already callous. Taking that to the next level and pressing it upon those not like your character, isn't so much different. The only thing different between a NPC begging in the street, and a PC begging in the street, is there is a player behind one of them. To your character? There is no difference.
This is not carebearageddon. This is not real-life. It's okay to hate, maybe you'll even start to find you like it a little.
Also: remeber, as pointed out below, as well, that there are always different ways to go about displaying your hatred, and it isn't always necessarily a straight-forward affair:
Quote from: A Large Bag on May 25, 2012, 04:33:17 PM
Hate does not equal: "Get in your face and start shit with you." Most of the time. There are varying degrees, depending on the character and depending on who the target is.
But Decameron, I am the exception!Fantastic, have a stable reason for why your character would choose to associate with those who the general majority might despise. There's nothing wrong with this (from an OOC perspective) as long as there is suitable justification. Some very good options for any further questions or how you might go about doing this are listed below.
Quote from: Morrolan on May 25, 2012, 07:12:17 PM
On the flip side, if your character is taking part in situations that contravene the docs and there are, you feel, good reasons for it, put it in your character reports. This can have multiple effects, all of them good for RP:
- If you are really over the line, staff can let you know better than some hate thread on the GDB.
- NPCs and vNPCs may have something to say. You kanked a sharp, roundear? Perhaps your promotion gets rejected or delayed.
- PC haters get something to hate. Merchant Sellall might be untouchable, but no one will complain when some halfbreed goes missing.
- PC leaders get plot-fodder to work with. You kanked a southie scum? Good, do it again, and here is a poison dagger.
- Personal documentation (character reports and bio entries) provide you with a chance to really look at your character's internal cohesion and create more consistent, realistic responses.
If you are ignoring the documentation, it is your responsibility to make certain that the game world reacts realistically. That means communication.
Okay, I am ready to start hating, Decameron, but how do I go about it?Well, like many things in Armageddon, it depends entirely upon your character, their outlook, background, personality, etc. Prejudices in game can take on many unique and varying forms, although there are two basic categories: The direct approach and discreet approach.
The direct approach:
This is far beyond simply getting into a bar fight at the Gaj because a half-breed looked at you the wrong way (although, that can happen too). The direct approach is just as it sounds, a more vocal, in-your-face technique of letting that particular half-breed/elf/dwarf/rinther/etc know that your character is well aware of what they are, and their place in the world. That 'rinther long-neck just offered you buy you a drink - what the fuck is his angle? Is he trying to get you drunk so he can rob you? You're a Bynner and you notice a half-breed runner in front of you while waiting for stew. Tch, not on your watch. Cut the fucker in line, hey emo-breed - human's first.
Remember two things, however, the first being that while playing the bully/victim role in these circumstances, there can be consequences to your actions, just like in anything else. Maybe when you're hanging off the shield wall because Sergeant Douchebag doesn't know where he's going, that same half-breed might offer a boot instead of a helping hand. Secondly, this is a game, and your objective should never be to make another person's character unplayable. Hate is supposed to be fun, in a spiteful sort've way.
Quote from: Booya on May 25, 2012, 04:58:50 PM
..there are so many other people playing 'nice' that there's an easy option of not bothering to follow up the rp opportunity. But actually, I think lots of you would be surprised at how many players -are- willing to play along, both as victims and as aggressors. Try it and see. Because hate in Armageddon is fun! I have to say I really enjoy rp'ing it :-*
Keep in the back of your mind that it's a game and you might not really want to get so carried away for it to become unpleasant OOC for the player behind your victim - whether that's verging on OOC bullying, or trying to make your enemy's life so relentlessly miserable that their role becomes miserable too and not give them a way out except storing/suicide, etc. And if you decide to play a loud, obnoxious douche you may get what's coming to you, but that's okay!
The discreet approach:
Of course, not all racism is overt. It certainly doesn't have to be (you whiney Tuluki bastards), it can be subtle, but the important point to remember is: it still exists. Subtly doesn't equate to being agreeable to racial equality, it means simply taking advantage of the system to put those who are rightfully beneath you, in their place, so you might maintain (or even improve) your own station. Some suggestions as to how to approach this as below:
Quote from: Cutthroat on May 26, 2012, 08:28:05 AM
The thing one has to remember is that, unlike IRL, the racial stereotypes in Zalanthas are 100% true. Elves really are thieves, scammers, and charlatans. Dwarves really are stubbornly fixated on their focus. Humans really are dumber and slower than elves, and have demonstrably throughout history tried to keep them and the dwarves down. Half-elves really are emotional time-bombs tainted with elf/human blood, depending on which half you hate more.
Even allowing for sides to things we never see, there's still a general standard for internal prejudice. If a half-elf is asking for a job from a human and gets one, don't automatically assume the human's a breed-lover - the human could be offering to pay the breed half of what he would pay a human, for more dangerous work than usual. Or maybe the human plans on finding the work unsatisfactory and not paying for it after all. In any case, something like that leads to deeper conflict than telling them at the bar "oh you breeds are such degenerate creatures", because the human would likely either brag about his treatment of the breed (lol I got this breed to check gortok dens for me before I go inside, for ten coins a den), or subtly point it out (hello fellow human, my breed is probably going to die on the job, you want to hunt together and split the catch 50/50?).
Personally I prefer that style over overt prejudice, because it seems more natural, although there were definitely PCs in an appropriate place to pick out a Tuluki, Allanaki, or an elf and proceed to call them names, or beat the crap out of them. It's just that, once things escalate that far, they don't come down again. There might be more name-calling, more beatings, but the conflict likely won't ever return to a point where you can just continuously screw those people over with The System. And that might be an acceptable loss for some players, but for others, that's probably the point where being prejudiced loses its fun.
Whichever approach you take is your call, and even if you choose to completely ignore this aspect of the game, realize that others will not, and they are more than capable of observing your actions with others in a public domain. So when you introduce your new mate, the three-eyed, half-breed. 'rinther gemmed, to your friends, don't be surprised if you don't have many friends, after the fact.
Quote from: Kryos on May 26, 2012, 06:50:18 PM
So, yeah, some PCs aren't so discreet, some are. Just play and enjoy yourself, everything else will fall together.
pretty much.
Which is all mostly fine. Keep in mind however, you aren't going to openly display hate toward those that can kill you unless you don't care about your own life. Lipping off to an evil witch with evil terrible magicks, is asking to be blown up, cursed so your genitals shrivel, etc.
Hehe, I know who this is directed to.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. But maybe that's a Tuluki thing? :P
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 25, 2012, 03:59:26 PM
Hehe, I know who this is directed to.
I'm sure it's not directed at anyone in particular. Decameron doesn't write up such posts for a single person. :P I've observed this trend myself over years and years. One time I sent a kudos to someone for a 15 minute interaction simply because they were being a complete and utter douchebag to my PC.
Will contribute to the discussion later, am sleepy.
Quote from: A Large Bag on May 25, 2012, 03:28:17 PM
Which is all mostly fine. Keep in mind however, you aren't going to openly display hate toward those that can kill you unless you don't care about your own life. Lipping off to an evil witch with evil terrible magicks, is asking to be blown up, cursed so your genitals shrivel, etc.
While this is true enough - that guy you just got into a brawl with at the Gaj could have a poisoned dagger, be a bender, ungemmed, fire-kank in disguise or any number of things that could royally destroy your pitiful life. If all if us weren't in the business of taking risks, no one would ever speak to anyone else. What makes you think that being nice to a gemmed would stop it from cursing you? Sure, it's appropriate to fear the Gemmed, but you know what yoda says about fear.
Edited to add: Generally directed, not to anyone in particular. :) Also, I forgot to include skin-color under inappropriate prejudices and can't seem to get that far down to edit the original post on my phone. But will do so when I get back home.
Quote from: Decameron on May 25, 2012, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: A Large Bag on May 25, 2012, 03:28:17 PM
Which is all mostly fine. Keep in mind however, you aren't going to openly display hate toward those that can kill you unless you don't care about your own life. Lipping off to an evil witch with evil terrible magicks, is asking to be blown up, cursed so your genitals shrivel, etc.
While this is true enough - that guy you just got into a brawl with at the Gaj could have a poisoned dagger, be a bender, ungemmed, fire-kank in disguise or any number of things that could royally destroy your pitiful life. If all if us weren't in the business of taking risks, no one would ever speak to anyone else. What makes you think that being nice to a gemmed would stop it from cursing you? Sure, it's appropriate to fear the Gemmed, but you know what yoda says about fear.
I didn't say anything about being nice to it did I? I just said being openly offensive to a witch (a gemmed one) one you know has all sorts of mysterious and evil powers would quite obviously be a fool's game. I don't think it would be the norm over ignoring, avoiding, or talking shit behind their backs. Hate does not equal: "Get in your face and start shit with you." Most of the time. There are varying degrees, depending on the character and depending on who the target is.
I think a large amount of the unwilingness of RPing people who hate others for whatever reason comes from the fact that they fear it might stifle RP. Even though fights and conflicts can make for great RP, I don't doubt that there's many people who don't want to RP anymore with the guy who insulted their precious character.
Quote from: Patuk on May 25, 2012, 04:40:35 PM
I think a large amount of the unwilingness of RPing people who hate others for whatever reason comes from the fact that they fear it might stifle RP. Even though fights and conflicts can make for great RP, I don't doubt that there's many people who don't want to RP anymore with the guy who insulted their precious character.
I think the inverse might play a part, too, that people are too afraid that their character's bigotry will get their character ganked. I know I've played an asshole much more readily in games where I have some coded protection from just being immediately set on fire or whatever. There's not much else I can add safely on the GDB, unfortunately.
Quote from: Decameron on May 25, 2012, 03:13:29 PM
What would be acceptable prejudices for your common Allanaki?
Disliking/distrusting someone based upon their race (elves, dwarves, etc), where they come from (i.e. if they are a foreigner, if they came from the 'rinth, Tuluk, etc), if they are Gemmed, to name a few.
Also, widen the dislike/distrust to people who are openly friendly/fine with different races, people from different places, gemmers etc. If your friend is chummy with a gemmed or rinthi rat, let that create tension between you.
Quote from: Patuk on May 25, 2012, 04:40:35 PM
I think a large amount of the unwilingness of RPing people who hate others for whatever reason comes from the fact that they fear it might stifle RP. Even though fights and conflicts can make for great RP, I don't doubt that there's many people who don't want to RP anymore with the guy who insulted their precious character.
Because they're looking at it the wrong way, or there are so many other people playing 'nice' that there's an easy option of not bothering to follow up the rp opportunity. But actually, I think lots of you would be surprised at how many players -are- willing to play along, both as victims and as aggressors. Try it and see. Because hate in Armageddon is fun! I have to say I really enjoy rp'ing it :-*
Keep in the back of your mind that it's a game and you might not really want to get so carried away for it to become unpleasant OOC for the player behind your victim - whether that's verging on OOC bullying, or trying to make your enemy's life so relentlessly miserable that their role becomes miserable too and not give them a way out except storing/suicide, etc. And if you decide to play a loud, obnoxious douche you may get what's coming to you, but that's okay!
Also, the word HHHate always reminds me of this inspirational clip of the Guv'nor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW4nDD4keik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW4nDD4keik)
Quote from: Booya on May 25, 2012, 04:58:50 PM
Because they're looking at it the wrong way, or there are so many other people playing 'nice' that there's an easy option of not bothering to follow up the rp opportunity.
I love Decameron's post, and agree with it 100%. Booya also brings up a point, but doesn't fully explore it - People who
should be hated by pretty much everyone are, instead, surrounded by friends and powerful allies. Rinthi's rise to high positions in powerful Houses, Gemmers pal around with whomever, elves and humans ~*Fall In Love*~ all the time, and they don't immediately lose all their friends for it, or the response is muted... So fucking with those people, who chose actively to play the scum of the Known, will get you in shit with all sorts of people who will suddenly flip it around on you. Obviously not every time, and these examples are, by definition, anecdotal. However, it happens often enough that people notice it and comment on it. It's obviously not the people posting in this thread, it may not even be people who actively read the GDB, but I don't think I've ever gone more than a month with an actively played character, and -not- seen some egregious violation of social norms like the ones I mentioned, or worse.
Quote from: Patuk on May 25, 2012, 04:40:35 PM
I think a large amount of the unwilingness of RPing people who hate others for whatever reason comes from the fact that they fear it might stifle RP. Even though fights and conflicts can make for great RP, I don't doubt that there's many people who don't want to RP anymore with the guy who insulted their precious character.
These people who avoid conflict for OOC reasons don't understand that hatred is interaction. The absolute worst thing you can do to another character, from an OOC perspective, is not to hate them or start conflict with them, it's to ignore them. Avoiding obvious conflict is what stifles interaction (though it might make perfect IC sense if your character is really the one avoiding a conflict).
Agreed. But I don't even think that avoiding gemmers and the like is bad form. People who sign on to play higher karma roles understand that the trade-off for the coded power the karma guild or race brings is counter balanced directly by the social ostracizetion.
So my advice would be, pour on the hate when it's your local breed, city elf, or stump. But don't feel bad about putting distance between you and a gemmed mage. Isolation comes with the role.
If you believe that you are seeing extremely poor RP that is against the docs, write a
character report player complaint. As with PK, staff know (or can choose to know) a lot more of the situation than you.
[EDIT because I was feverish and having difficulty thinking, yesterday.]
On the flip side, if your character is taking part in situations that contravene the docs and there are, you feel, good reasons for it,
put it in your character reports. This can have multiple effects, all of them good for RP:
- If you are really over the line, staff can let you know better than some hate thread on the GDB.
- NPCs and vNPCs may have something to say.
You kanked a sharp, roundear? Perhaps your promotion gets rejected or delayed. - PC haters get something to hate.
Merchant Sellall might be untouchable, but no one will complain when some halfbreed goes missing. - PC leaders get plot-fodder to work with.
You kanked a southie scum? Good, do it again, and here is a poison dagger. - Personal documentation (character reports and bio entries) provide you with a chance to really look at your character's internal cohesion and create more consistent, realistic responses.
If you are ignoring the documentation, it is your responsibility to make certain that the game world reacts realistically. That means communication.
Whoops. Sorry, made a mistake while editing the original post to include a few other replies from others.
People complain about this issue a lot. And I think...yes, there are probably a few too many 'nice' folk - because lots of people want to be the exception. But I also think there is probably another breed of character...the ones who hate internally but might not make a point of showing it. They might smile and be friendly to a magicker because they need something from them....but at the same time hating every minute. These characters probably get lumped in with the 'nice' folk, because well...you can't read their minds (hesitantly written) so you assume that they are ignoring the culturally ingrained prejudices.
Also, a lot of people want to the exception. And I think there can and have been some great exceptions, and sometimes it makes sense. But there is no special app process for being the exception in this regard - so the staff can't limit the number of 'nice' characters in the game. And sometimes, I guess, there's just a whole bunch.
If the same players are playing nice over and over and over...then they probably need a little nudge from the staff. Mix it up a bit.
Quote from: Maso on May 25, 2012, 07:57:23 PM
People complain about this issue a lot. And I think...yes, there are probably a few too many 'nice' folk - because lots of people want to be the exception. But I also think there is probably another breed of character...the ones who hate internally but might not make a point of showing it. They might smile and be friendly to a magicker because they need something from them....but at the same time hating every minute. These characters probably get lumped in with the 'nice' folk, because well...you can't read their minds (hesitantly written) so you assume that they are ignoring the culturally ingrained prejudices.
Putting that kind of character detail into character reports, as Morrolan said, is probably a damn good idea. Staff can read our character's minds, but they can't read ours if there's not enough in the logs to go by.
All the asshole characters either start in or end up in a) the 'rinth b) the Byn c) Kurac d) Red Storm or e) Allanaki Templarate*, because those are their natural habitats.
Every single other role in the game is so fraught with petty political tension that pretty much any attempt at being off-color will get you corrected or killed. You can't even be an asshole elf these days without someone flexing on your whole tribe. About the worst you can do is fart and belch a lot and RP being generally disgusting.
Hell, sometimes you can't even be an asshole in the Byn or Kurac, if you've got a straight-laced killjoy in charge.
*But you still have to choose your targets wisely.
Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.
Quote from: ShaLeah on May 25, 2012, 09:03:02 PM
Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.
Namby-pamby passive-aggressive bullshit isn't exactly compelling to the 99.9% of us who can't read your thinks.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 25, 2012, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on May 25, 2012, 09:03:02 PM
Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.
Namby-pamby passive-aggressive bullshit isn't exactly compelling to the 99.9% of us who can't read your thinks.
Heh. There, there. App a psi!
Happy compromise: lots of hemotes and subtle hints in choices of wording.
Or just grow a pair and be outwardly racist (you don't have to start a fight to be racist, guys).
Quote from: ShaLeah on May 25, 2012, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 25, 2012, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on May 25, 2012, 09:03:02 PM
Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.
Namby-pamby passive-aggressive bullshit isn't exactly compelling to the 99.9% of us who can't read your thinks.
Heh. There, there. App a psi!
If there's any one thing more boring than what most of the playerbase is doing at any particular moment, it's what they're thinking.
+1 Great thread..
Hissing, the thin figure in a dark, hooded cloak says, in oddly-accented sirihish:
"Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you."
Quote from: Synthesis on May 25, 2012, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on May 25, 2012, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 25, 2012, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on May 25, 2012, 09:03:02 PM
Remember that outward appearances don't always indicate inward feelings.
Namby-pamby passive-aggressive bullshit isn't exactly compelling to the 99.9% of us who can't read your thinks.
Heh. There, there. App a psi!
If there's any one thing more boring than what most of the playerbase is doing at any particular moment, it's what they're thinking.
And I find what they're thinking to be the most fascinating thing about them. I guess we'll just have to light a doob and agree to disagree. :)
Quote from: Delirium on May 25, 2012, 09:14:05 PM
Happy compromise: lots of hemotes and subtle hints in choices of wording.
Or just grow a pair and be outwardly racist (you don't have to start a fight to be racist, guys).
Ha, well...my last real bastard PC was such a dick that he even got run out of the 'rinth.
You better believe I killed me some krath-damn sharps along the way, though.
Anyone not speaking their mind is using too modern a mindset. Casual racism is How Things Are. Elves shouldn't even really get that mad about it, except for very strange exceptions. I've seen humans get offended that people call the half-elf they hang out with a breed, because it's a slur. People used the n-word casually, increeedibly casually, a hundred to a couple hundred years ago. Read Huck Finn, or any other period literature, and it's just kind of how they talked. Too many elves, breeds, dwarves, etc. get all offended if you dare act like they're a subhuman race, because they're confident in their ability to hide;backstab human;flee self;w;w;w;w that they get all cocksure, and the humans in the area let them remain cocksure with no checks on their behavior.
Anyway, that was a bit of a rant, and may not have been easy to understand or follow, sorry.
My last "good" PC was still a totes racist jerk. Just because your PC is some paragon of heroism and altruism doesn't mean that they genuinely don't think that elves and half-elves are bad people because, more often than not, that's the only notion that they've ever experienced with those two groups of people.
Speaking of a human PC, anyway.
I think it's harder to play a racist with a non-human PC. If only because you're so outnumbered.
Have to agree with Synthesis.
Mmmm....this thread makes me miss armageddon. I really need some more hate in my life.
I know there's always the temptation to look at threads like this and think, "Oh fuck, not this argument again -- spare me, I've seen it a dozen times before," but to me it is a good exercise in refining and meditating on important aspects of the game, especially when each side presents valid, consideration-worthy points.
The thing one has to remember is that, unlike IRL, the racial stereotypes in Zalanthas are 100% true. Elves really are thieves, scammers, and charlatans. Dwarves really are stubbornly fixated on their focus. Humans really are dumber and slower than elves, and have demonstrably throughout history tried to keep them and the dwarves down. Half-elves really are emotional time-bombs tainted with elf/human blood, depending on which half you hate more.
Then you have the history of bad blood between the Labyrinth and Allanak proper, or Allanak and Tuluk. Although many of those events are in the past, new generations still have some idea of the nature of the collective "other side".
Indeed, pointing these things out is prejudiced, but it's also telling the truth. People of any group that have no grasp on the traits and history of the other groups shouldn't just be seen as being "too nice": they would probably be seen as, at best, dumb, and at worst, a <other group>-lover.
Even allowing for sides to things we never see, there's still a general standard for internal prejudice. If a half-elf is asking for a job from a human and gets one, don't automatically assume the human's a breed-lover - the human could be offering to pay the breed half of what he would pay a human, for more dangerous work than usual. Or maybe the human plans on finding the work unsatisfactory and not paying for it after all. In any case, something like that leads to deeper conflict than telling them at the bar "oh you breeds are such degenerate creatures", because the human would likely either brag about his treatment of the breed (lol I got this breed to check gortok dens for me before I go inside, for ten coins a den), or subtly point it out (hello fellow human, my breed is probably going to die on the job, you want to hunt together and split the catch 50/50?).
Personally I prefer that style over overt prejudice, because it seems more natural, although there were definitely PCs in an appropriate place to pick out a Tuluki, Allanaki, or an elf and proceed to call them names, or beat the crap out of them. It's just that, once things escalate that far, they don't come down again. There might be more name-calling, more beatings, but the conflict likely won't ever return to a point where you can just continuously screw those people over with The System. And that might be an acceptable loss for some players, but for others, that's probably the point where being prejudiced loses its fun.
Quote from: Cutthroat on May 26, 2012, 08:28:05 AM
Even allowing for sides to things we never see, there's still a general standard for internal prejudice. If a half-elf is asking for a job from a human and gets one, don't automatically assume the human's a breed-lover - the human could be offering to pay the breed half of what he would pay a human, for more dangerous work than usual. Or maybe the human plans on finding the work unsatisfactory and not paying for it after all. In any case, something like that leads to deeper conflict than telling them at the bar "oh you breeds are such degenerate creatures", because the human would likely either brag about his treatment of the breed (lol I got this breed to check gortok dens for me before I go inside, for ten coins a den), or subtly point it out (hello fellow human, my breed is probably going to die on the job, you want to hunt together and split the catch 50/50?).
This. And I would expect Decameron to be appreciative of the finer subtleties of role play!
I do agree though...
I had a 'nice' character recently-ish, and it was for a good reason and therefore
explained in the character reports.I've had an edgy, paranoid but generally disliking/hateful of various races and magickers etc - but this mostly comes out in
thoughts/feels/hemotes and semotes.
The way Zalanthas is - even the most degrading racial slurs can be thrown around and used by people that consider themselves 'nice'. You shouldn't feel bad about calling a dwarf a 'fuckin' stump' to his face, because that's just the way it is.
Quote from: Cutthroat on May 26, 2012, 08:28:05 AM
The thing one has to remember is that, unlike IRL, the racial stereotypes in Zalanthas are 100% true.
It has come to my attention that the elvish stereotypes for humans (humans are slow and cannot run) are probably weak ones to pick. Let's look a little further into the elven mindset. Elves are thieves, but why? Is it just because they like stealing? Or is it just because the "laws" are unjust and biased against elves anyway, so stealing is an honorable act of rebellion. The legal system, such as it is, screws elves over...so why would elves show any loyalty to it at all?
We all play Armageddon here, and (let's face it) humans are no less evil than elves: they kill, they steal, they will take anything that is not nailed down. We all know this, but perhaps we do not look at it from a racial perspective.
HumansWhat makes humans human? What is it that humans do that others do not?
The big-city humans, as a group, are a bunch of lawyers. Humans will use their legal authority to claim anything that is nailed down. They will kill and abuse people (people of other races, people outside the walls, people in the 'rinth), and then (passively) use that legal system for protection. As the system is racist and corrupt, trying to beat them at their own game is impossible.
Humans (and those inside their jurisdiction) consistently go into contested territory and then complain to their friends that they were raided by a raider. If they have sufficient social capital, they will get together with their friends and others, and go kill the raider--
and take their stuff!
That is not justice, it is tribal warfare (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endemic_warfare") at its best. To anyone not from the city, it is raiding pure and simple.
To the other races, humans in Armageddon should be seen as brutal, legal-minded bullies and cowards. Think of the times of the worst colonial excesses, and that is Armageddon: rule by racist administrations that do not (generally) recognize equal rights for non-humans.
Are you having trouble getting a handle on the imbalance of justice associated with racism? In the U.S., settlers would kill natives, maybe rape a few women, takes some scalps, and claim native land, livestock, or whatever. When there were reprisals, they would play victim and call in the military.
That is what racism is. That is what it is like. Making fun of people in bars is not the same thing.
Quote from: Morrolan on May 26, 2012, 02:14:18 PM
Let's look a little further into the elven mindset. Elves are thieves, but why? Is it just because they like stealing?
Yes!
QuoteOr is it just because the "laws" are unjust and biased against elves anyway, so stealing is an honorable act of rebellion.
Nope! They really are just thieving bastards.
Just making sure everyone is on the same page about elves - Cutthroat is right that the stereotype is 100% true:
From the docs:
QuoteThe elf does not consider the theft to be the breaking of a law (although they do understand human laws, on an intellectual level); theft is not desirable because it is a form of rebellion for an elf, not because it makes them superior, and not because it increases their wealth (although the latter two may sometimes be true). Theft is desirable simply because it is. They simply take it for the sake of the act itself.
Now, one way that theft is not like art for elves is that all elves love it. This might help you understand how elven society perceives theft.
Yup. Time to roll out an elf!
Quote from: Booya on May 26, 2012, 03:21:15 PM
From the docs:
QuoteThe elf does not consider the theft to be the breaking of a law (although they do understand human laws, on an intellectual level); theft is not desirable because it is a form of rebellion for an elf, not because it makes them superior, and not because it increases their wealth (although the latter two may sometimes be true). Theft is desirable simply because it is. They simply take it for the sake of the act itself.
Now, one way that theft is not like art for elves is that all elves love it. This might help you understand how elven society perceives theft.
This is a nature/nurture argument. In this game, nature wins hands-down. Elves are thieves, half-elves are broken, dwarves are obsessed, etc. I suspect this is done for simplicity's sake and to avoid arguments.
Quote from: help race city elfDescended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery. [Emphasis mine]
Look at the following statement:
"
All elves have a
cultural bent..."
Really? Well, it is just a game and we can play it that way. But that is not (in my professional, not personal, opinion) the way culture works. In fact, to me, it makes elves unplayable. It makes them all subject to a form of madness which looks like a strange mix of kleptomania and sociopathy. This madness prevents them from acting in either their own best interest or that of the group.
Yes, thievery is
the way of establishing social status among elves. I get that. Just as
all gith are, more or less, ravening monsters. In Armageddon, racism is not only inherent, it is
naturally enforced. That is what it means when Cutthroat says that "stereotypes are 100% correct." By "naturally enforced" I really mean "enforced by staff and the docs."
But to return to my main point, what are the "racial" attributes of humans? In what ways do humans "always" act? Do humans have "racial behaviors" that constrict their play?
- Humans are racist.
- Humans fear/loathe magickers and psionicists.
- Humans will kill to maintain their power at the top of the social hierarchy.
- Humans always act in their own best interests.
- Humans believe that possession is nine-tenths of the law.
These would be the equivalent behaviors for humans in the game, much like the ones from "The Elven Persona" listed above by Booya.
In the game, I would like to move to a more nuanced view of elves, just as we have of humans. Yes, "all" human groups in the game are like that (I think--possibly excepting tribal groups).
Does that mean I want to see elves riding kanks? Elves and humans walking down the road holding hands and singing love songs to one another? Heck, no. But I would like to see characters who are drawn to do these things being oppressed by the system for their failures to conform. It makes for more interesting storytelling, more interesting RP.
P.S. This is not a case of "be the change you want to see in Armageddon." This is a case of "report your foul deeds to the staff and let them adjudicate the results."
Quote from: Morrolan on May 26, 2012, 04:49:17 PM
Really? Well, it is just a game and we can play it that way. But that is not (in my professional, not personal, opinion) the way culture works. In fact, to me, it makes elves unplayable. It makes them all subject to a form of madness which looks like a strange mix of kleptomania and sociopathy. This madness prevents them from acting in either their own best interest or that of the group.
Well, that's why elves don't have huge settlements and civilization like humans do. I really love that aspect of them and wouldn't want to see them turned into some sort of rebels with a cause. They're the disease, not the cure.
Quote from: Morrolan on May 26, 2012, 04:49:17 PM
This is a nature/nurture argument. In this game, nature wins hands-down. Elves are thieves, half-elves are broken, dwarves are obsessed, etc. I suspect this is done for simplicity's sake and to avoid arguments.
Look at the following statement:
"All elves have a cultural bent..."
Really? Well, it is just a game and we can play it that way. But that is not (in my professional, not personal, opinion) the way culture works. In fact, to me, it makes elves unplayable. It makes them all subject to a form of madness which looks like a strange mix of kleptomania and sociopathy. This madness prevents them from acting in either their own best interest or that of the group.
Yes, thievery is the way of establishing social status among elves. I get that. Just as all gith are, more or less, ravening monsters. In Armageddon, racism is not only inherent, it is naturally enforced. That is what it means when Cutthroat says that "stereotypes are 100% correct." By "naturally enforced" I really mean "enforced by staff and the docs."
But to return to my main point, what are the "racial" attributes of humans? In what ways do humans "always" act? Do humans have "racial behaviors" that constrict their play?
- Humans are racist.
- Humans fear/loathe magickers and psionicists.
- Humans will kill to maintain their power at the top of the social hierarchy.
- Humans always act in their own best interests.
- Humans believe that possession is nine-tenths of the law.
These would be the equivalent behaviors for humans in the game, much like the ones from "The Elven Persona" listed above by Booya.
In the game, I would like to move to a more nuanced view of elves, just as we have of humans. Yes, "all" human groups in the game are like that (I think--possibly excepting tribal groups).
Does that mean I want to see elves riding kanks? Elves and humans walking down the road holding hands and singing love songs to one another? Heck, no. But I would like to see characters who are drawn to do these things being oppressed by the system for their failures to conform. It makes for more interesting storytelling, more interesting RP.
No.
Humans are racist if their environment was racist, and racism in Armageddon is more often than not just true. It's not just humans who hate sorcerers and psionicists, it's everyone. Humans won't act in their best interests if they're part of some tribe or fierce patriots of their city-state. They might have very specific thoughts about the law. Elves, on the other hand, are all raised in a single way - in their tribe, where it is ingrained every single day that scamming people not in your tribe is good. Even if they're not in a tribe, they'll be treated as thieves everyday, and their fondness of stealing things -might- very well be just inherited, since there are no true genetics on Zalanthas. If you feel playing a character who wants to steal everything makes him unplayable, you're looking at it in the wrong way, anyway - elves are conmen more than thieves, and they're by no means stupid. But an elf who would feel oppressed by some sort of system? That.. That really goes awfully far, it does. It's the same as playing a dwarf who feels oppressed by him being expected to have a focus.
This thread makes me chuckle. First, an brief story. Been a year, so I can talk about this.
Last time I was in Allanak, my PC was sitting in the Gaj enjoying the atmosphere, if you would. When in walks a <undesirable>. Not to mention that, but its a outlander. It asks for help finding something, and my PC proceeded to berate said undesirable to the point of seeming madness: it physically attacked him.
It died, of course, and then someone dashed over to loot the body and run out onto the streets.
Armageddon at its finest, not quite. But it was good.
As a rule, I generally agree with what the OP said, nuances aside. On the other hand, I've had PCs who tried to use undesirables for their own ends, discreetly, because the story demanded it of them.
So, yeah, some PCs aren't so discreet, some are. Just play and enjoy yourself, everything else will fall together.
Updated the original post with some stolen ideas great material provided through this discussion. 99 problems but a breed ain't one. ;)
One of my favorite interactions on a former PC consisted of two lines of dialogue.
Some PC who had the wrong accent, acting a bit like a douche, " So ye having a good day?"
Me: "Was." Then I walk out of the tavern and he emotes some cool response.
Hate or just prejudice can be really fun to RP. I didn't stifle every RP encounter but talking to every gemmer/rinthi/foreigner/breed/elf can throw me off from what the character would do. You don't have to be psychotic about your hate but being rude to others usually goes over just fine on both ends of the RP. Assume every elf is a thief, every 'gicker is just waiting to put a curse on you and every breed is a total loser. You give those PCs a chance to RP reacting to discrimination which is awesome as well.
It might just be self-preservation that stops discrimination being over the top
Those on the receiving end can bottle it up and it can simmer for some time, knowing talking back will make things worse
Until someone pushes them too far and they decide they don't care anymore
There's nothing more scary than when that breed eventually snaps
It happens so often it's even an IC stereotype
The way Hate as I see it to be played out, and this is my opinion and as a new player I could be flawed, but the easiest way to go about it is-
There are varying degrees of hate for different groups and races. Let me put it like this- Let's assume you're a normal human in Allanak.
There is no social stigma for a human to be friends with a dwarf, or at least as far as I can tell. Dwarves who are total bros are awesome. For a Dwarf to be a pretty fantastic guy though, is rare, so asshole dwarves, the most common type, are just usually ignored. The racist word of calling them Stumps or any kind of 'short' joke seems to be almost endearing, and quite frankly, it seems they don't give two fucks. Then again, I've never played a dwarf. A romantic relationship would be awkward and strange, as the female party does NOT want to get pregnant, as- Well, it would kill her.
Humans usually hates elves. Elves are known for being stealing, swindling succubi of 'sid. If you have one as a friend, it's usually strictly a business relationship. That's okay. Anything else, not so much. A romantic one is nigh heard of, because the resulting factor would be a half-elf, and half-elves... Well, I'll get to that.
Human beings fucking love Half-giants. Half-giants are the best friends you can have. They're stupid, lovable, mega-strong oafs. A romantic relationship -will- kill you, in a literal way, but jokingly flirting with a half-giant due to the massive size of their endowments isn't actually looked down upon. Half-giants are pretty much just super-humans who happen to be dumb. They're moreso seen kind of affectionately, like mounts.
Mul's are like dwarves, except there's always that extreme distrust. Mul's are always made into slavery, most often by humans. Humans can't tell what a Mul is thinking, Mul's can be crazy. Not to mention that, if they go absofuckinglutely berserk, they will destroy EVERYTHING.
Halflings- I've never seen a halfling.
Half-elves are shit. Fuck half-elves. Unless you have a goddamn reason to talk to a half-elf, you don't talk to half-elves. And they probably don't wanna talk to you, either. They're all the thievery of elves in human-sized little shitcakes. If you're fucking a half-elf, then you probably are a desperate motherfucker, unless they're like a goddamn F-me princess who people can't tell is a half-elf.
----------------------------------------------
For groups, and let's look at this from an Allanaki point of view, most Northies are wimps. They got all the water they could want. Bitch trees. Oh, and they whine so much because of their Kryl, stupid northie fucks. Like babies.
Gemmed? Eh... First rule of Gemmed, is that we don't talk to gemmed. Unless it's business, you stay away from them. They're monsters. But like any monster, they can be tamed and put to use. But you can't trust 'em farther then you can throw 'em. They can do all sorts of crazy, stupid shit. They'll make you IMPLODE.
Fuckin' Gypsies. Goddamn, they're hot. Fuck their brains out, they're all horny sluts. But, uh- Be careful. Don't take your weapons off yer person when you do it. They migh' stab you in the back 'n get off, then rob you blind and leave you to bleed.
Tribals? Eh. They bring in some business, but they're all north. Whatever, man.
--------------------------------------------
If any of this is incorrect, then please correct me. This is just the vibe I've gotten so far. I won't keep going, because I feel like I've already overstepped my time in writing this.
I
Most of what you said, adamblue, I can see how you might feel that way. I hate getting ripped off so much that it makes it really easy not to play an elf, because the idea of doing something I disagree with so much (on a level, playing a habitual thief, or being proud of being a thief and etc. That's part of the reason I favor play in Allanak.
Now, don't get me wrong, I will put you to work if you're working for one of my pcs and I find out you have those skills. I just don't enjoy spending my time playing it. Kudos to the ones who do it well. I don't think I could ever play one for long. I've tried a few times, but I always find up with this sense of 'meh', as soon as I log in with any sort of an elf.
Half elves I love to hate and hate to love. I enjoy playing them, and I am usually attracted to the well played ones as like, someone you don't mind spending time in the bar with, although you'd never publicly admit it or feel okay about it. I've had a handful of my pcs wind up publicly admitting to being with a half-elf... but just as often, they'd loathe themselves for it, and minimize the breed and talk shit about them behind their back.
As for dwarves.... eh. A well played one is entertaining as a novelty, but I would imagine the guy that can never pull his head out of his ass (ass = daydreams/schemes of/about focus/how to achieve focus) would get old -fast-.
And while you may love the hell out of a half-giant, they eat a lot, they're huge, they take up a lot of space, they're dumb and often forgetful, plus they are mimics, making it exceptionally bad for them to be around listening during a private meeting. Yeah, they can hunt and they're pretty super and all, but they have one thing which is their huge weakness: their idiocy. I hate idiots. Useful idiots can be tolerated, but regular old idiots... ick.
As to the notion of muls, I'm usually crazy about and enchanted by the play of the muls I've seen. Good work, yo. That is all.
I dunno, I'm out, now. Heh.
Oh! Don't take me wrong, -I- love elves, and I know they're not swindlers. I'm just going from a vantage point of a typical southern Allanak human commoner, or what I at least think they would think.
Elves are swindlers. That's the truest stereotype in the game.
Your perception of gypsies is wrong. ;)
I actually really enjoyed his perception of gypsies.
Only way out to find out the truth: Play one!
Also, more hate. Especially vs exceptions to the rule. 8)
Dwarves are stereotypically like that annoying guy in accounting: an expert in a limited field of action, and often not much use outside of that. That expertise is often (but not always) smashing skulls.
While you probably want dwarves on your side when it comes down to cases, you are unlikely to invite them to parties unless you are looking to make a show of strength. They are not socially up to human rank or standards. They are the descendants of slaves, and tend to have limited social skills.
Dwarves make lousy friends but excellent organizational employees. They tend to live quite a while (approx 150% of human lifespan) and once (slowly) trained, can be pretty expert in what they do.
Quote from: Akaramu on July 13, 2012, 01:11:16 PM
Only way out to find out the truth: Play one!
Also, more hate. Especially vs exceptions to the rule. 8)
Hypocrite!
I think from now on I'm just going to pop in on threads to say: "Hey guys I played a gypsy!"
Never trust an elf.
Not sure how I overlooked this thread given the title but very well done. Great post. I am a firm believer that there should be more hate, prejudice, and racism. I would love to see more play into the various social classes as well.
Quote from: Scarecrow on August 14, 2012, 11:16:21 PM
Never trust an elf.
Never Trust an Elf (http://www.amazon.com/Never-Trust-Elf-Shadowrun-6/dp/0451451783)
Having an enemy in game can sometimes be very exciting. I'd love to see more conflict in the game between people who just absolutely hate each other.
I try to make enemies.
Usually, it doesn't work.
Quote from: boog on August 17, 2012, 01:05:00 AM
I try to make enemies.
Usually, it doesn't work.
Or they are just subtle about it. ;)
If someone knows that you are their enemy, you have lost quite an advantage.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 17, 2012, 03:48:52 PM
Quote from: boog on August 17, 2012, 01:05:00 AM
I try to make enemies.
Usually, it doesn't work.
Or they are just subtle about it. ;)
If someone knows that you are their enemy, you have lost quite an advantage.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer I guess. Still, I'd like to see some outright emnity that isn't strictly racial.
More people need to be assholes.
Or just beat the shit out of people you don't like instead of killing them. They might return the favor one day.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 17, 2012, 03:48:52 PM
Quote from: boog on August 17, 2012, 01:05:00 AM
I try to make enemies.
Usually, it doesn't work.
Or they are just subtle about it. ;)
If someone knows that you are their enemy, you have lost quite an advantage.
Well if you want to be effective, then sure...
But the open enemies are more fun. Then everyone gets to play!
Also fun, having your closest allies act as your open enemies in public.
You guys HAVE read Tzu Sun, right? If not, you can usually get a pocket art of war at most large book stores for five bucks or less.
I think it depends on the character and their understanding of politics along with their personal level of self control.
Not every grebber needs to (or should) be Sir Amos the Savvy.
tru dat
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 17, 2012, 04:11:09 PM
More people need to be assholes.
Or just beat the shit out of people you don't like instead of killing them. They might return the favor one day.
I hope your current character is an asshole, and beats the shit out of people instead of killing them. I know mine certainly is, and does. ;)
Quote from: Rhyden on August 17, 2012, 06:37:25 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 17, 2012, 04:11:09 PM
More people need to be assholes.
Or just beat the shit out of people you don't like instead of killing them. They might return the favor one day.
I hope your current character is an asshole, and beats the shit out of people instead of killing them. I know mine certainly is, and does. ;)
Find out IC.
I can only remember twice that I PKed when I didn't have to (or was not getting paid to.
One was a merchant that worked for my Kadian. Gave them two RL weeks of warnings that they were pissing off the wrong people, to either stop, disappear or die.
The were still around two weeks later, so I eliminated the first two options for them.
The other was someone who threatened to turn me in for doing something illegal that I didn't do. Although, I was doing lots of other illegal stuff that, to my knowledge, no one new about yet and I wanted to keep it that way.
I find it extremely jarring when random, strange characters help my character out of the goodness of their heart. Freaks.
Something I was thinking about the other day...
"Hate" should have a hierarchy just like any other part of life in Zananthas. What is seen as 'hate' by some should be seen as part of life by others.
If my human has worked hard to make a name for themselves in a house or whatever and someone let's say spits on them -- they could take offense, see it as hate, whatever.
But, if my breed who may be wearing silks and works for a house is randomly punched in the face -- well, that's just life.
Further, if some 2nd-class person (breed/rinith/non-citizen) is trying to spend sid or rank to take offence at some ridiculous thing -- then they should be laughed at and thought to be trying to live higher than their lot.
**that is, if some rinither comes up to my thug-for-hire and says "Amos keeps spitting on me" -- I'd take his sid and laugh in his face. He shouldn't take offence to what is justly (it's the Highlord's will he's spat upon) given to him
Short of physical harm (killing/maming) giving some 2nd rate person trash talk or maybe even a slap -- shouldn't be even discussed as "hating" or "offending"
Quote from: Maso on August 17, 2012, 07:26:48 PM
I find it extremely jarring when random, strange characters help my character out of the goodness of their heart. Freaks.
Uggggggggggggggggg.... No kidding. I always make a point of checking my pockets and flaps as well as eyeballing shadows and giving them suspicious looks.
Quote from: My 2 sids on August 17, 2012, 07:29:07 PM
Short of physical harm (killing/maming) giving some 2nd rate person trash talk or maybe even a slap -- shouldn't be even discussed as "hating" or "offending"
Maybe not from the perspective of the person doling it out. It would be unrealistic to think that the person on the receiving end isn't hurt/upset/betrayed/angered by their treatment. The social hierarchy just dictates that for whatever reason...they probably won't voice this, retaliate for stand up for themselves.
Amos the breed might let that Bynner beat him up in the Gaj. He might simply allow it to happen then crawl into the corner to bleed and cry. Because he knows if he fights back no one will care. They will probably laugh at him or join in to give him a bigger beating. That doesn't mean he isn't full of seething hatred, confusion and pain. That doesn't mean that he won't sneak into the Bynners apartment in the middle of the night and stab him in the thigh with a poisoned dagger. Then cradle his head softly, singing Allanaki lullabies while he strokes his hair and watches him die.
Agreed and disagree.
The idea of having "Betters" (knowing/believing they are indeed better than oneself) doesn't just apply to nobility/commoner. It applies all the way down -- being a mutant-breed, magicker really IS the worst form of life. It's acceptable because it's true.
Quote from: Maso on August 17, 2012, 07:26:48 PM
I find it extremely jarring when random, strange characters help my character out of the goodness of their heart. Freaks.
I play random Good Samaritans all the time. (And I rule.)
Quote from: Is Friday on August 20, 2012, 07:52:50 PM
Quote from: Maso on August 17, 2012, 07:26:48 PM
I find it extremely jarring when random, strange characters help my character out of the goodness of their heart. Freaks.
I play random Good Samaritans all the time. (And I rule.)
I actually had a really
awesome 'good samaritan' encounter recently. I actually logged it so...in a years time. Heh. So I suppose it depends how it's done. That made sense. Sometimes it makes sense...sometimes it would be easier for me to swallow if they just stole my boots.
When I started playing this game in the way back, the hatred and bigotry of the world made me fall for this game. It is a hard world to live in and people tend to go to extremes to ensure their survival. The game has changed alot since then, but I would love to see more biased actions occur.
What about Fear? I see way more hating on magickers than I do fear of them. Personally I tent to play my non-magickers as horrified of magick.
Because whereas nobody minds playing a flawed character, which isn't even true in some cases, playing a character with weaknesses is something much, much rarer.
Quote from: Bast on August 27, 2012, 01:45:40 PM
What about Fear? I see way more hating on magickers than I do fear of them. Personally I tent to play my non-magickers as horrified of magick.
I don't see the division between hate and fear as being a very tidy one. I think in regards to racism, war and religious conflicts IRL, the two are blended together. That's how I picture the attitude towards magick in arm as well, feared and hated to the point of the most extreme and violent persecution.
Quote from: Bast on August 27, 2012, 01:45:40 PM
What about Fear? I see way more hating on magickers than I do fear of them. Personally I tent to play my non-magickers as horrified of magick.
You (the general you) wanna see more fear towards magickers? Make a scary magicker. You wanna see more hate towards elves? Make an asshole elf. It's really that simple.
Quote from: Rhyden on August 27, 2012, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: Bast on August 27, 2012, 01:45:40 PM
What about Fear? I see way more hating on magickers than I do fear of them. Personally I tent to play my non-magickers as horrified of magick.
You (the general you) wanna see more fear towards magickers? Make a scary magicker. You wanna see more hate towards elves? Make an asshole elf. It's really that simple.
Yeah, I used to love humans 'til Rhyden started playing them. Now I run and hide whenever I see muscular men walking toward my PC. :(
Quote from: Fathi on August 28, 2012, 02:40:17 AM
Quote from: Rhyden on August 27, 2012, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: Bast on August 27, 2012, 01:45:40 PM
What about Fear? I see way more hating on magickers than I do fear of them. Personally I tent to play my non-magickers as horrified of magick.
You (the general you) wanna see more fear towards magickers? Make a scary magicker. You wanna see more hate towards elves? Make an asshole elf. It's really that simple.
Yeah, I used to love humans 'til Rhyden started playing them. Now I run and hide whenever I see muscular men walking toward my PC. :(
I find that hard to believe! Rhyden seems like a big, bundle of cuddly fur.
But I agree with the sentiment. Also, creating a character that hates vehemently can help too. If you roll a character who is hateful of X, this can inspire those around you and drum up support. Maybe a few characters you regularly see in the Gaj also hate elves...but maybe they are too shy/scared/nervous to voice it, so every time an elf walks in they just politely leave or go quiet. A bolshy, loudmouth can help give them something to rally behind!
Quote from: Fathi on August 28, 2012, 02:40:17 AM
Quote from: Rhyden on August 27, 2012, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: Bast on August 27, 2012, 01:45:40 PM
What about Fear? I see way more hating on magickers than I do fear of them. Personally I tent to play my non-magickers as horrified of magick.
You (the general you) wanna see more fear towards magickers? Make a scary magicker. You wanna see more hate towards elves? Make an asshole elf. It's really that simple.
Yeah, I used to love humans 'til Rhyden started playing them. Now I run and hide whenever I see muscular men walking toward my PC. :(
For similar reasons, my "muscular men" run and shriek in horror when they see women looking like tank girl approaching. :o
Quote from: Rhyden on August 28, 2012, 03:42:10 PM
Quote from: Fathi on August 28, 2012, 02:40:17 AM
Quote from: Rhyden on August 27, 2012, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: Bast on August 27, 2012, 01:45:40 PM
What about Fear? I see way more hating on magickers than I do fear of them. Personally I tent to play my non-magickers as horrified of magick.
You (the general you) wanna see more fear towards magickers? Make a scary magicker. You wanna see more hate towards elves? Make an asshole elf. It's really that simple.
Yeah, I used to love humans 'til Rhyden started playing them. Now I run and hide whenever I see muscular men walking toward my PC. :(
For similar reasons, my "muscular men" run and shriek in horror when they see women looking like tank girl approaching. :o
My pc's just hide behind their mother's skirts, peeking around her.
Really, all the hatred that you can muster in your gut feels artificial if you've played a long-lived character who's had many friends and many experiences. Even the most racist bastard will have some measure of respect for another race if he has worked with that race or fought them. Don't tell me that you don't hate, but respect gith after running into them multiple times. You don't taunt them, you just kill them. It's them or you.
Quote from: AdamBlue on August 28, 2012, 07:10:28 PM
Don't tell me that you don't hate, but respect gith after running into them multiple times.
:D
I encourage you to find out in-game, but there's good reasons for gith hate.
Allow me to correct my grammar:
Hate, BUT respect Gith.
Fuck Gith.
Gith never emote, they are twinks.
They totally do emote. It's just the same emote over and over.
Which is just worse because they're probably one of those chumps who has a trigger set up to throw off an emote when they parry an attack or whatever.
Hate is great! But only if it actually does something.
The casual glaring emote to just ignoring the character is kind of dull eventually the two players end up just being VNPC to each other. And hence you might as well not exist. Obviously some characters have a very IC reason to do this, but too many people playing these types is bad. If you must ignore, please plot against the characters in other ways.
In your face hate ready to kill each other or talking but being very cautious is better. Both involve the players to actually have RP.
So please, either hate someone openly in their face or talk to them(use your thinks if you feel you are being too kind)
Also to players who get ignored, feel free to make them your targets of your anguish. :D This is a RP mud we like to RP with each other :D
I have to say, the hate in the game is vastly different now than when I left on my break at the end of 2004. Still fun, mind, but I sometimes wonder if my mindset is in the wrong place, because things feel a lot less brutal these days. =P (Or maybe having bills and stuff has made me an angry, person. :o )
I started playing back in '93. It was brutally hateful world back then. I took a 2-3 year hiatus around '97, came back and played a few months, and it was noteably less so. Took another, very long, break until a couple weeks ago. Now it's a virutal love-fest compared to the way it used to be. I seriously though about PKing a guy who, after a few minutes of introductory convo asked me if I wanted to be friends. That, however, would have been an OOC response, so, if he's dead by now, it wasn't by my hand. But, man, do I miss the days of vehement racial hatreds.
Yeah, the hate is different now than from the time Arm was a hack & slash mud, big fucking surprise ::). Now you have to actually have a reason to Pk someone. Decline.
Wasn't hack and slash back then. In fact, I don't recall it ever being hack and slash. Players were just rougher. RP was still the main focus. People just cared less that staying in character and true to the nature of the world meant others would die. I especially remember elves getting the short end of the stick the most. ;D Now, it seems, there aren't many antagonists. How I miss Blackmoon.
Quote from: Maker on September 02, 2012, 08:53:55 AM
Wasn't hack and slash back then. In fact, I don't recall it ever being hack and slash. Players were just rougher. RP was still the main focus. People just cared less that staying in character and true to the nature of the world meant others would die. I especially remember elves getting the short end of the stick the most. ;D Now, it seems, there aren't many antagonists. How I miss Blackmoon.
Are we playing the same game?
I agree with Maker and Hoochie. I've been playing since 2000 and took about a two year break in 2010. Now that I am back, people seem much softer. People don't treat the social classes as they used to and seem shocked when someone from an upper echelon reminds them of their place. I've experienced a few other things that I perceive as being negative but they are not related to this topic so I won't bother sharing them here. In just those two years, the game has changed a lot. It is still the best MUD out there and I love it but it is notably different and not for the better. I guess when you are around something all the time you don't notice those subtle changes that add up over time.
Quote from: Maker on September 02, 2012, 08:53:55 AM
How I miss Blackmoon.
Make a new raider group and spread the hate! Granted, you may likely never have any sort of support or an actual camp; you can still have fun with it. I've had a few over the years. I remember one small band where I played a raider who started a pretty cool little raiding group. You can even read the story that one of the other players posted. I believe it is called "Eems the raider" or something similar. I was the 'thick' one, I believe. ;)
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on September 02, 2012, 01:23:13 PM
People don't treat the social classes as they used to and whine like bitches when someone from an upper echelon reminds them of their place.
Quote from: Is Friday on September 02, 2012, 01:33:44 PM
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on September 02, 2012, 01:23:13 PM
People don't treat the social classes as they used to and whine like bitches when someone from an upper echelon reminds them of their place.
Yeah, you better watch it, they might get a bard to compose a poem about you!!! :'(
Quote from: Malken on September 02, 2012, 02:03:39 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on September 02, 2012, 01:33:44 PM
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on September 02, 2012, 01:23:13 PM
People don't treat the social classes as they used to and whine like bitches when someone from an upper echelon reminds them of their place.
Yeah, you better watch it, they might get a bard to compose a poem about you!!! :'(
Psht. That's what you get for playing in Tuluk.
My noble made someone eat a shit sandwich. Literally. ;)
Quote from: Is Friday on September 02, 2012, 01:33:44 PM
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on September 02, 2012, 01:23:13 PM
People don't treat the social classes as they used to and whine like bitches kill the fuck out of the upper class when someone from an upper echelon reminds them of their place.
Be the change.
Quote from: Wug on September 02, 2012, 06:27:45 PM
Be the change.
No sorry instead you have to whine about the indescribable differences between now and the good old days
Quote from: Case on September 02, 2012, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: Wug on September 02, 2012, 06:27:45 PM
Be the change.
No sorry instead you have to whine about the indescribable differences between now and the good old days
Or we can do both. ;D
So basically you are trying to gain OOC support for something you want to happen IC?
That's not what I said at all.
This is a discussion board, and the discussion is on hate in the game world. I gave my opinion on the subject. Nothing I've said has been an attempt to garner any kind of ooc support for what happens in the game.
My character(s) are perfectly capable of their own personal brands of hate, based on their personalities. I don't see how giving my opinion on it in a thread dedicated to the subject is an attempt to garner ooc support.
You are right that was mean of me.
I tend to play elves so I am doing the same thing anyways.
EDIT:
But this subforum name should be changed to..
You guys are RPing all wrong. Let me tell you how it's done!
Or would that be too long of a title?
Actually, you are playing wrong if you aren't following documentation. To include: Not being aware of social class/caste.
Quote from: Is Friday on September 02, 2012, 09:14:45 PM
Actually, you are playing wrong if you aren't following documentation. To include: Not being aware of social class/caste.
And I really feel it does happen. I really think sometimes I am playing a different game than what people are writing here.
Quote from: kayza on September 02, 2012, 09:16:42 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on September 02, 2012, 09:14:45 PM
Actually, you are playing wrong if you aren't following documentation. To include: Not being aware of social class/caste.
And I really feel it does happen. I really think sometimes I am playing a different game than what people are writing here.
I think there's a vocal minority that really distorts things on the GDB. That's my theory.
I'm 99% sure that the turnover rate for noobles and nooblars means that any documentation breaking uppity PCs will be killed. I know -my- uppity PC got murdered publically awhile back.
If you think someone is stepping out of place, just offer to kill them. Bet you the higher caste people pay you to do it.
Someone around here has to play the rabble rousers.
Quote from: Is Friday on September 02, 2012, 09:23:50 PM
Someone around here has to play the rabble rousers.
And some have to play rabble.
I was referring to the GDB roleplay if that wasn't too clear.
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on September 02, 2012, 01:23:13 PMthe game has changed a lot. It is still the best MUD out there and I love it but it is notably different and not for the better.
I think if players really wanted a harsher version of Arm they'd have it. The current dynamics of the game, to me, simply reflect the player's wishes.
There is definitely a level of toughness that no longer exists in present day Arm. But where it's improved is clan NPC leaders aren't constantly up in your business anymore, players are in far more control of the game world, magick and psionics are now exceptionally rare (in my 4 or 5 months of recent playing I haven't seen any whatsoever) and iso clans which once formed their own private MUD within a MUD have been done away with.
It's difficult to balance things to a level where everyone's happy. In the much older days of Arm, yes, it was an obscenely violent place. But there was no crafting code, the emote code was severely limited, and the game world over all was nowhere near as fleshed out or documented as it is today (we have an entire page devoted to plants for chrissake!) Consequently there was a lot less to do other than kill and the game was much closer to being a MUD in the more traditional sense back then than it is now. If you want a greater focus on RP and depth, you have to accept that some of the violence, the hate, the harshness, etc. will die down a little. But, as many have already pointed out, nothing's stopping you, the individual, from advancing the harshness. It's easy to come on the GDB and say the game has changed and not for the better, but at the end of the day the current game world as it is reflects the desires of the current playerbase.
Why don't stumps hate the Master race? Mind you, I've never rolled one, so maybe they do.
They've been bread since the Age of Man (if not longer) to serve them.
Edit: Bred, too.
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on September 02, 2012, 03:03:40 AM
I have to say, the hate in the game is vastly different now than when I left on my break at the end of 2004. Still fun, mind, but I sometimes wonder if my mindset is in the wrong place, because things feel a lot less brutal these days. =P (Or maybe having bills and stuff has made me an angry, person. :o )
Naaaah, everyone has just gotten soft. Show us how to really hate.
For a more serious post, I point you all to this thread (http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive/369.html) from 1999 where people were complaining about how soft the game had become.
Personally I'm glad those uber NPCs are no longer in the game. Because they were brutal and while dangerous, discouraged people taking risks which made the game world safer. I think we've struck a nice balance compared to those days.
I solemnly swear my next roll will be an uncompromising, hateful, murderous, jerk wad.
I will seek out that which you love dearest, and crush it to dust in front of you, then leave you to stew for the rest of your life.
Promise.
;D
Quote from: greasygemo on September 04, 2012, 12:44:32 AM
I solemnly swear my next roll will be an uncompromising, hateful, murderous, jerk wad.
I will seek out that which you love dearest, and crush it to dust in front of you, then leave you to stew for the rest of your life.
... While listening to the lamentation of my wimmen? :'(
They will only lament for a moment before I strangle them and arrange them into amusing postures in your apartment for you to find when you get home from work.
::)
Quote from: greasygemo on September 04, 2012, 12:44:32 AM
I solemnly swear my next roll will be an uncompromising, hateful, murderous, jerk wad.
I will seek out that which you love dearest, and crush it to dust in front of you, then leave you to stew for the rest of your life.
Promise.
;D
Same.
Quote from: greasygemo on September 04, 2012, 12:50:26 AM
They will only lament for a moment before I strangle them and arrange them into amusing postures in your apartment for you to find when you get home from work.
::)
You hateful, uncompromising murderous jerk wad you :(
..Oh, wait, right, that's what you were going for.
Hey Kayza, when I'm done making a chandelier from Malkens wimmens, you wanna swing by and trample him with an inix? That'd be great. Thanks bro.
;D
Quote from: greasygemo on September 04, 2012, 01:33:12 AM
Hey Kayza, when I'm done making a chandelier from Malkens wimmens, you wanna swing by and trample him with an inix? That'd be great. Thanks bro.
;D
I was just trying to be cool.. all my characters believe in equality and love.
I try to hug all breeds and tell them that I understand. I also stick up for them especially if it's just some snobby noble.
I tell elves that it's okay you steal, you can't help it. But can I flick your ears please? I always buy them drinks.
Templars I tell them what they are doing wrong, and if they need pointers contact me. If the templar is really mean I remind them that we are all free in this country.
Magickers I say, Can you make me a magic item, if you do I won't tell anyone. - I mean that's okay right?
Raiders.. I just dont' go out the walls cause they are all jerks.
Armageddon: Snuggles, hugs, and kisses.
I want to see a human templar, a elven sorcerer, a dwarf mindbender, and a halfling warrior/aggressor.
It would be the A-Team of Armageddon.
Only humans have evolved to the point of being able to become Masters of the Way (Psionocists).
It's (IMO) the evolutionary advantage that enabled them to rule the world every time it gets its reset button pressed.
Just sayin'.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 06, 2012, 07:38:26 PM
Only humans have evolved to the point of being able to become Masters of the Way (Psionocists).
It's (IMO) the evolutionary advantage that enabled them to rule the world every time it gets its reset button pressed.
Just sayin'.
Humans just have the most variety, you could find a human that is also as smart as a half-giant.
And there are more like that than psionocists.
So HA!
You underestimate teh power.
These people can "worm" their way into your head and "bend" your will (or so I assume from public docs and their common IC names, never played one).
It doesn't take an army of them.
QuoteAs species have evolved, humans found themselves at a disadvantage. No
longer the strongest, fastest, or even smartest beings around, their
survival was in jeopardy. For one reason or another, the human brain was
able to unlock more psionic powers than any of the other beings. Only
humans have been able to become true psionicists, and use psionic skills
other than the basics.
Psionicists have come to be known as mindbenders, and masters of the
Way. They deal with manipulation of the Way, bending it to serve their
plots and designs. Because of their ability to deal directly with peoples
minds, true psionicists are killed on sight (though of course none would be
so foolish as to announce their presence openly, just as a defiler would
not) in just about every civilized region of Zalanthas, due to their highly
dangerous potential.
I like you theory, John, but I think humans are on top because of guild 'sorcerer king'.
Elves, dwarves, half-elves, half-giants, mantises, and who knows which other races, can spawn sorcerers, too. But benders? Nobody capable of that.
Okay so .001%(or whatever low number it be) of all humans that happen to be a bender are better than other races. Everyone else is not. I'm okay with that. :D
I completely understand why most humans hate the other races, the only thing they really have is there are more of them. I be bitter and mad also. And when you get that lucky bender in your masses, you kill them. Stupid humans.
Dragons > Humans
They just happen to find humans the most useful to delegate the task of keeping tabs on their huge livestock farm to. Nomnomnom.
I can't speak from any practical experience, and if I had any I couldn't do so even still, but the docs state this is the way it is. Benders, I imagine, have the potential to be pretty damn powerful.
Mindbenders are a myth perpetuated to strike fear and paranoia into the hearts of the huddled masses in order to distract them from devoting their lives to he who saved us, the Mighty Dragon, Tektolnes. You know this to be true now get back to work!
Quote from: Spoon on September 10, 2012, 02:24:59 PM
I like you theory, John, but I think humans are on top because of guild 'sorcerer king'.
I always figured guild sorcerer king was rooted in: mind benders who learned magick :-\
Quote from: musashi on September 10, 2012, 07:15:49 PM
Quote from: Spoon on September 10, 2012, 02:24:59 PM
I like you theory, John, but I think humans are on top because of guild 'sorcerer king'.
I always figured guild sorcerer king was rooted in: mind benders who learned magick :-\
Or visa versa.
Also: mind benders who learned magick that also figured out how to unravel the fabric of time
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 10, 2012, 08:43:58 PM
Also: mind benders who learned magick that also figured out how to unravel the fabric of time
and have figured out the mystery of lost socks.
Quote from: kayza on September 10, 2012, 03:30:10 PM
I completely understand why most humans hate the other races, the only thing they really have is there are more of them. I be bitter and mad also. And when you get that lucky bender in your masses, you kill them. Stupid humans.
Elves are soft weaklings, dwarves and half-giants are slow and stupid to varying degrees. Humans have a lot going for them, and there's probably a good reason they ended up outnumbering everyone else.
So, uh, hey. Here's a question, and it's a bit odd-
What happens when a -really big- human finds a pretty half-giant lady and they do the diggity nasty and SOMEHOW he does not end up crushed to death and dead?
What would be the result? Another half-giant, or a human? Or a quarter-giant?
Quote from: Spoon on September 10, 2012, 02:24:59 PM
I like you theory, John, but I think humans are on top because of guild 'sorcerer king'.
??? What's my theory?
Quote from: AdamBlue on September 11, 2012, 03:05:14 AM
So, uh, hey. Here's a question, and it's a bit odd-
What happens when a -really big- human finds a pretty half-giant lady and they do the diggity nasty and SOMEHOW he does not end up crushed to death and dead?
What would be the result? Another half-giant, or a human? Or a quarter-giant?
Find out IC.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on September 11, 2012, 02:54:59 AM
Quote from: kayza on September 10, 2012, 03:30:10 PM
I completely understand why most humans hate the other races, the only thing they really have is there are more of them. I be bitter and mad also. And when you get that lucky bender in your masses, you kill them. Stupid humans.
Elves are soft weaklings, dwarves and half-giants are slow and stupid to varying degrees. Humans have a lot going for them, and there's probably a good reason they ended up outnumbering everyone else.
Maybe they have a greater population because they settled down in cities under protective godkings before any other race got the idea?
Elves are paranoid sociopaths toward everyone who isn't their tribe, that's why they fail, not because they're sissies.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on September 11, 2012, 02:54:59 AM
Quote from: kayza on September 10, 2012, 03:30:10 PM
I completely understand why most humans hate the other races, the only thing they really have is there are more of them. I be bitter and mad also. And when you get that lucky bender in your masses, you kill them. Stupid humans.
Elves are soft weaklings, dwarves and half-giants are slow and stupid to varying degrees. Humans have a lot going for them, and there's probably a good reason they ended up outnumbering everyone else.
For the same reason that cockroaches and other bugs outnumber and will out live us.
I'm still going to go along with the docs.
Quote from: John on September 11, 2012, 04:02:24 AM
Quote from: Spoon on September 10, 2012, 02:24:59 PM
I like you theory, John, but I think humans are on top because of guild 'sorcerer king'.
??? What's my theory?
Oops, you didn't even post on this page before that. I'm out of here. :P
Quote from: kayza on September 11, 2012, 09:01:26 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on September 11, 2012, 02:54:59 AM
Quote from: kayza on September 10, 2012, 03:30:10 PM
I completely understand why most humans hate the other races, the only thing they really have is there are more of them. I be bitter and mad also. And when you get that lucky bender in your masses, you kill them. Stupid humans.
Elves are soft weaklings, dwarves and half-giants are slow and stupid to varying degrees. Humans have a lot going for them, and there's probably a good reason they ended up outnumbering everyone else.
For the same reason that cockroaches and other bugs outnumber and will out live us.
Zalanthan humans don't live underfoot of the other races nor do they live off of their waste. If any race is comparable to IRL cockroaches, it's city elves. Dwarves are more like domesticated livestock, half-giants and muls are living tools.
Quote from: FantasyWriterMaybe they have a greater population because they settled down in cities under protective godkings before any other race got the idea?
Of course. That kind of falls under 'smarter than dwarves, stronger than elves.'
You are entitled to your opinion.
But I'm still going with
Humans = Cockroaches.
So again so this does not get confused, When I say "human" I am not including nobles and the upper class of people. They are not really in the same category.
My general point is just that from the view of other races(mostly dwarves and elves), there are things they view negative about them.
Hate works both ways.
And as far as being under the boot of anyone..
First No.
They are under the boot of Nobles, Templars, Soldiers and Sorcerer Kings. They are not under the boot of just your every day human who has no political connections which is who the vast majority of the human race is. They may be hated by them.. but that's all it really is.
Well, I guess it helps when RPing non-humans to have so wholly taken what is their necessarily self-deceiving mindset to heart.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on September 12, 2012, 10:36:34 AM
Well, I guess it helps when RPing non-humans to have so wholly taken what is their necessarily self-deceiving mindset to heart.
LoL, yes I can concede to that.
I'm pretty sure any mindset of Armageddon's is self-deceiving
You might think cockroaches are a good metaphor for city elves, until you realize that cockroaches are impossible to exterminate and will exist forever on Earth... hey wait. City elves just got a lot cooler. ;)