Armageddon General Discussion Board

As requested by Reiloth.

Quote from: Majikal on September 12, 2011, 08:09:35 PM
My personal opinion on the change in the karma system, is that it's going to fall flat on its face. I wish it would work and we could find a balance but most players only see the good parts of their RP and staff isn't always there to watch, what was once blamed on staff not paying enough attention, shit luck, playtimes, the 'I don't play enough leaders' excuse etc will now have a very subjective list of guidelines which players will be arguing that they meet and a neglect of their karma will now be translated into them feeling unappreciated.

Longevity, I got that.
Good communication, I'm well above the average I think and don't miss needed reports to clan staff. That's two.
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, yup, staff has even given me props on this. Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, despite even asking for them. Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Let's call that six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.

Where's my sorc/mul, kthx.

This is what I feel/fear is going to happen and it's only going to further draw the line between staff and players. I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?

I think this is a pretty courageous - and excellent - point.

I firmly believe there are longstanding faith issues between players (namely long-term players) and staff that need to get worked out before a system like this will be succesful without raising animosity.  We have a line drawn in the sand, and on one side, you have a player that's invested 10 years in Armageddon, and on one side, you have a staffer.
   
Its entitlement vs. entitlement.
   
When staff make judgments that players disagree with, and players try to express that disagreement, we are judged by the belief that we are reacting simply because it is a knee-jerk reaction to suffering individual consequences, and that we have little actual interest in the policies of the game.
   
I believe this is the culture of distrust and assumption of selfishness that permeates the staff view of players. And when a long-term respected player takes a kick from the staff, either to their karma or whatever, the veteran Arm community being a group of friends, we begin to feel like we are all suffering an injustice. Every time a poor decision is upheld to maintain staff credence, it becomes a shared frustration because it is representative of every other time its happened.
   
Solutions won't be discussed on the GDB, because it is a place of battling rhetoric; there is the belief that we risk too much in speaking candidly, because experience has taught us that dissent is something that affects our IG opportunties. And when a player tries to make their case to staff, we cast our words beyond a veil - it is our word alone against any number of contributing staff members. We have no advocates and no alternatives. Its expected that you don't share your issue with fellow players, or discuss it on the GDB. The staff can speak as a unified voice, while the player must keep their complaint private.
   
And on the other side...
   
I've never been on staff, but I can't imagine how demanding and impatient players must seem.
   
When you're volunteering 20+ hours a week, doing work that's largely just holding ground to keep the game functional and populated, and your efforts remain largely unseen, its probably a heap of hot coals when players start insisting that you're not doing enough to make the world vibrant and active. And everytime players bitch when they get policed about exploiting something in the game for the 100th time, they don't realize that the staff saw the 99 other times and were patient enough to see if the player figured it out for themselves.
   
Players don't come from the view of status quo, because they simply have no idea how much work it takes to keep things running smoothly, and that staff don't want to spend their time docking karma or forcing storage.
   
I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.

I think Sunburned's post is a bit overdramatic and chock full of hyperbole.

I -also- believe it has a rather healthy dose of truth in it.

Unfortunately - you'll not find many people agreeing with you here on the GDB, because if they agree with you, then they will be afraid to say so on the GDB, for those very reasons that they're agreeing with. And so, you'll find plenty of people who will say "No no, Sunburned! You are being unfair, ungrateful, insensitive, and uncaring about the staff! And the people who agree with you are also uncaring, unfair, insensitive, and ungrateful!"

And then everyone who reads the thread will say "SEE? Sunburned is clearly in the minority, everyone who "gets it" is fair, sensitive, grateful, and caring to the staff, and wouldn't dream of making such outlandish assumptions!" And they'd assume that all the people who post to make sure everyone knows that they disagree with Sunburned, are the only people who "get it."

And there you'd be, Sunburned, on the soapbox, without much company, because the people who agree with you, are afraid to do so openly, for the exact reasons you say they are afraid to do so. And then there would be the rest of us who might agree, but are afraid to agree, and therefore will be passive-aggressive and say we might agree, or we might not, but that we still are grateful and caring and sensitive and fair...though we might feel the staff possibly maybe perhaps could consider thinking about doing things differently. With respect, of course.

In short:
People who are afraid to express dissention, will continue to be afraid, and they are the ones you won't hear from. And then the ones who flow with the status quo will reinforce the belief that the dissenters are wrong, since - if they were right, there would be more of them!

It's a vicious cycle. If you complain, you're branded a complainer. If you keep quiet, no one will know you have a complaint.

I don't agree with the original point made in that thread at all. The list wasn't intended to be used by players to judge their own roleplay, it was to be used by staff to decide when karma was to be rewarded. Indeed, from the first paragraph of the staff announcement: " We have redesigned the process to outline a set of criteria that staff will use when awarding (and removing) karma from a player account." Thus, it's odd to say that the idea will "fall on its face" due to a chasm between players and staff, because the intended use for this new structure was clearly for staff purposes. The player part of the announcement was basically about the new ways karma would be spent, and how staff will attempt to distribute karma points in a more standardized manner than ever before.  Unfortunately some players decided to focus on what the documentation on karma says not to focus on - gaining karma, and staff's job surrounding it.

Anyway, whether that chasm exists is a whole other point. Yeah, it comes down to veteran jadedness and entitlement. Some veteran players genuinely go unnoticed, and they really deserve staff attention, as well as help getting it (and I'll take a moment here to remind vets they can ask Helpers for help with writing reports, etc.). But to speak candidly, others aren't as great players as they think they are. Not everyone can truly be the victim they claim to be if many other players feel they are treated fairly by staff. The truth of the matter is we get half of a story from players, and often on these forums we are allowed to complain as freely and as loudly as we want (although many of us refrain from doing so) and all staff can say is "use the request tool to talk about this with us" because anything more, and some players would start screaming about incivility or authoritarianism. And yes, this has happened around here enough times for me to categorize it so simply. It's basically a one-sided fight on the GDB, and the staff's perceived distance is often due to a desire to not air out potentially embarrassing (to the player or to the staff) details about an argument on the GDB. Occasionally staff throw caution to the wind and do that anyway, and the reactions are mixed, tending toward bad.

In an argument where every possible position is wrong, the only winning move is not to play. And once staff completely back out of participating in GDB discussions, some of us will complain about how behind-the-scenes they are.

It's not a question of how staff can improve, or how players can improve. It is, and always has been, a question of how we can meet each other in the middle. And we do that by being civil, by not airing out our personal dirty laundry on the GDB but by continuing reasonable discussion on on reasonable topics, even if it is dissenting. That's not how you just get staff's opinion on things - it's how you get people's opinion on things.

Edit: just to add, I don't think the thread this derailed from was getting bad at all. I think other topics have been more contentious in the past. These are just my general observations about arguments on the GDB.

^ Wisdom.

I share Sunburned's concerns. While I have encountered players who just seem to complain about everything, and who falsely see injustice (to them!) around every corner, I also know of players who are dedicated, well-behaved vets yet they eat shit far too often because staffers dislike them personally.

I don't know if these issues will wreck the new karma system. I do think they should be discussed as frankly as is possible.

It occurs to me that anyone in the Karma hole will remain in the Karma hole anyway, so .....
Laissez les bons temps rouler elves, dwarves and pickpockets forever.  Who's with me????

We're perfectly happy to talk to players that have issues with staff or those that feel that staff have issues with them.  However, we can't read minds, so players would have to initiate that contact through other mediums that we've previously established.  Just like the karma system (with its structure to assist staff in applying the same set of criteria to every player), the complaint system has been fine-tuned and worked on over a period of time.  That is the proper avenue to voice a complaint. Whinging, complaining, or posting choice bits of thoughtful (but negative, subjective, and possibly incorrect) insight on the GDB might be expressive, but since we've already outlined a process for this sort of thing, it will more than likely fall on deaf ears. 

Feel like staff have wronged you?  Put in a staff complaint.  These have to be resolved by Producers.  They cannot be replied to by anyone but a Producer.  (As mentioned above, the system has been fine-tuned to this point over a lengthy period of time--again, only Producers can respond.) You're essentially bringing your issue to the top echelons of the game.

Feel like staff have wronged your friend?  Get them to put in a staff complaint.  You are not privy to both sides of an issue.  You may think you understand the full story; perhaps you do.  It is more than likely that you do not have all of the details, however.

Finally, it is not "your word" against "any number of staff members."  It is what actually occurred on the record--granted, the interpreters of the record ultimately are staff members, but at some point, the volunteers that staff the game have to make decisions of authority.  About that record, though...why do you think we have moved to a request tool that is outside of e-mail?  There were a few reasons behind this, but the chief one is accountability.  For all intents and purposes, it is the truth from which decisions are based.  Why do you think we have added an ability for all Administrators to pull runlogs via a web tool?  Accessibility?  Yes--but another chief reason would be accountability and background.

Perhaps we're all corrupt, standing over you with our collective staff fly unzipped and raining down our negativity and karma docking and bans all over your happy roleplaying, communication (with staff and other players), and player conduct that just has had no fault that you can see (and since you can't see it, it must not be there). 

However, maybe--just maybe?--perhaps you did do something wrong.  And you know what?  The place to talk about that would be the request tool, through the proper channels.

I was about two steps away from backing off from Armageddon altogether based upon issues Sunburned has brought up. But I decided that I play Armageddon to have fun, not to fight uphill battles with Staff, which are basically just other people on the other side of a computer screen. And so, I decided to play roles that unfortunately involve Staff as little as possible.

I was recently denied a role which at the end of the day is fine in and of itself -- You can have a great application and someone else can have a better one, have better playtimes, or just fit what Staff are looking for at the end of the day. However -- I was explicitly informed that a major reason my application was denied was due to a recent GDB post I made, and how the Staff felt uncomfortable giving me the role based on my previous discontent with how they ran things, and that further discontent might be voiced based on their decisions for the role. I was informed that such discontent with Staff should be discussed behind closed doors via the Request tool, and I did not intent to, but did, undermine the Staff's efforts.

So basically -- What Lizzie said. If you have the balls to try to discuss Staff policy, or have an ounce of public malcontent, be prepared to make the sacrifice. Mine was deciding to play Armageddon interacting with Staff as little as possible, which is a shame.

I disagree with Majickal.

The karma system has always been a measure of trust the staff has for a particular player, and a measure of reward based on that earned trust.  Adhira made it clear in the original thread that the basis for the system won't change - it will remain about that trust.  The only change I can see is that staff will be expected to follow a more consistent system in detailing where that trust has been earned.  It appears to just be a matter of categorization more than anything.  Now, instead of guessing at what we can do to earn that trust, players can now point to one thing or another and look at ways to improve, because staff have basically said that these are the things that are important to us as staff to see in you the player, to allow you our trust.  Now, instead of people who have not gotten karma, or worse, have had karma taken away, can point to one thing or another and instead of trying to merely guess why the staff doesn't trust them, and likely make incorrect, and harmful assumptions in the process, might be able to see specifics as to why.  But since it's all still based on notion of the staff's trust for a player, and the basis of the system doesn't change, so I'm not sure why a player's interaction with that system would necessarily change suddenly for the worse, unless there's a misconception somewhere - either on the players' behalf, or on the behalf of staff, explaining the system to us.

It appears that players will still be entitled to request karma reviews, and account notes.  They will be able to see where the staff views them not only in the general sense of trust, but now in the varied categories specifically spelled out to all.  If anything, I feel that many people will view the system as being more transparent, especially upon receiving the results of a review.

However, Majickal seems to be suggesting that players will feel slighted based on the sense of entitlement that Sunburned mentioned.  Majickal says he is a pessimist - in fact, on this notion of entitlement and human nature, I'm also a pessimist - the way I see it, if a player who is looking to earn the trust of staff has been left skeptical because of neglect or conflict, the new system is not going to suddenly change that.  They will continue to feel slighted, until the staff decides they want to trust them again.  That attitude is encapsulated in what X-D said in the other thread - "I'll believe it when I see it."  The player may have valid arguments, or they might not.  But the fact is that the whole karma system is based on that simple notion of trust.   Human nature being what it is, once trust is violated or lost, it is not so easily regained.  I think that's an important point that people who feel entitled to play or what whatever they would like in this, the staff's sandbox, and with staff being human beings as well, should keep in mind.  A veteran player may feel entitled to the rewards of the karma system because of the contributions he or she has made to the game over their playing career, whether that is playing a great, memorable character, or having a hand in shaping a clan, or leading other players in the game or out of it.  However, a veteran player, being a human being, can still make mistakes, or fall to temptation or what have you, resulting in a loss of the trust of staff.  So while they may still feel entitled to karma options based on other criteria, if the staff do not trust them any longer, the staff is saying that they reserve the right to remove the rewards based on that trust, despite what might otherwise be a stellar player history.  In other words, it seems the player's sense of entitlement is not as important to the staff as maintaining the integrity of the game world as they see they need to - to allow only those they trust character options that they feel require a measure of that trust.  To be very honest, I feel this integrity is what makes the game it is today, and one major reason why I continue to play, 10+ years on.

At the same time, that's not to say that people should just take total unfairness lying down.  At least now with the new system, a player, and certainly staff, can point to a specific aspect of the player-staff trust relationship to make their point, rather than trying to grasp at the vague notion of trust in general.  Perhaps in that way, more of these types of player-staff rifts can be resolved, and perhaps in the end we can reach the opposite conclusion that Majickal envisions, where the players' trust of staff is bettered.  So in this sense, I'm actually an optimist, and remain hopeful.

QuoteSo, in the end, no matter what is posted on how karma should be awarded..or not, all it takes is a single staffer not liking you or your play for whatever reason to see you stuck in the karma limbo for all time.

I don't think this was intended as snarky myself but I see as a reasonable point. I believe most players biggest concern regarding karma is personal favoritism of a staffer or prejudice of a staff member in regards to karma. I don't think this system addresses this issue. Although I do see it as a positive step in regards to improving the karma system. Having been with the game for a long time, I know that there are players I may have pissed off out of the game, that got on staff and hold a grudge against me. Or other players who were buddies with someone that gets on staff and get nothing but positive attention in regards to karma, etc. What will be put in place to address/reduce the likelyhood of this happening?
Perhaps there should be a policy in place regarding cycling through which staffers make the decisions regarding karma for each player in turn? I don't know exactly but it is a concern that many players have regarding karma and with the purpose of improving the karma system and player/staff relations in mind, should be given thought to addressing other than: "We're flawless staff and don't do that, we swear." being given as the answer. No snark at all intended but I think it's something that needs to be given thought and discussed in regards to a "karma" system for any game run by human beings.


Edit: And a karma option for extra bacon would be good too.  :P Also, not sure which thread this one really belongs in so I'll put it in both.

Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 11:34:53 PM
So basically -- What Lizzie said. If you have the balls to try to discuss Staff policy, or have an ounce of public malcontent, be prepared to make the sacrifice.

When you start out from a very extreme, negative, and opinionated public position, yes, you should be prepared to make the sacrifice.  It has nothing to do with balls and everything to do with tact.

Sure, if you have issues with the staff one can file a complaint which would be reviewed by a producer. But, what is there in place to prevent say: A particular producer and staff member from backing each other to do pretty much whatever they want to? Say, Staffer A gets complaints about them, and producer A always takes those complaints against that staffer when they come up. Producer A always sides in with them preventing anything from being done to fix the issue. More and more unhappy players are created from the issue of Staffer A and Producer A being friends. What steps are in place to prevent/reduce the likelyhood of this happening other than: "Submit another complaint which will likely go to the same people and be dealt with in exactly the same way resulting in no improvement." Thoughts? Ideas?

I intend no bashing of the staff or anything. Just adding to the discussion in the hopes of helping address the issue for players. (perceived only or not)  8)

The point is, whether or not there is an issue, there should be a thorough system in place to help with the possible perceptions regarding these things. Players shouldn't feel fearful about expressing such concerns and staff shouldn't feel abused/slighted by them being expressed. This also contributes to more divide and lack of trust between players and staff.

Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 11:43:54 PMI believe most players biggest concern regarding karma is personal favoritism of a staffer or prejudice of a staff member in regards to karma. I don't think this system addresses this issue. Although I do see it as a positive step in regards to improving the karma system. Having been with the game for a long time, I know that there are players I may have pissed off out of the game, that got on staff and hold a grudge against me. Or other players who were buddies with someone that gets on staff and get nothing but positive attention in regards to karma, etc. What will be put in place to address/reduce the likelyhood of this happening?

Our own professionalism to actually police this sort of thing, which has been in place for quite some time and is continually reviewed/revamped with new staff rules, procedures, and what not.  I know that's not transparent and isn't something that players will ever see, but it is there.  Staff that pick favorites (whether it be clans or players) get spanked.  Staff that have prejudices against a player get spanked.  Just like I don't tell everyone on the GDB when I've docked someone's karma, Adhira, Nessalin, and Morgenes don't make GDB posts saying "I spanked Nyr today for doing this."  Some things (including this) are going to be behind the scenes, and you're just going to have to accept that you won't know the details.  With regards to favoritism and prejudice, if all staff seem to generally enjoy a player's contributions to the game and the community, perhaps it is not favoritism, but the system working properly.  If all staff seem to generally have issues over and over with the same player in different settings, perhaps it is not prejudice, but the player causing issues.

Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 11:57:42 PM
Sure, if you have issues with the staff one can file a complaint which would be reviewed by a producer. But, what is there in place to prevent say: A particular producer and staff member from backing each other to do pretty much whatever they want to? Say, Staffer A gets complaints about them, and producer A always takes those complaints against that staffer when they come up. Producer A always sides in with them preventing anything from being done to fix the issue. More and more unhappy players are created from the issue of Staffer A and Producer A being friends. What steps are in place to prevent/reduce the likelyhood of this happening other than: "Submit another complaint which will likely go to the same people and be dealt with in exactly the same way resulting in no improvement." Thoughts? Ideas?

Thoughts:  This is why we have three producers.

Ideas:  Maybe it would be a good idea to give staff (and other players, if applicable) the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming conspiracies to screw you over.

I guess I'm not too worried either way, because despite me being a decent roleplayer, in my own opinion, and keeping the staff informed of what I'm doing, I'm still gonna have like, 1 karma. But I'm alright with that, since this game isn't a "be a bad ass twink and kill everyone/thing else in sight with my karma enhanced stats" medium for me.

Hopefully this'll work out. Maybe it won't. We'll see. Either way, it's nice to see an attempt at change.

In regards to the meta-idea of the post:  staff and player trust, I have to say the new approach is adding to the communication level, so why could it be bad?

Cool Story:  I try in earnest to role play, acknowledging and building around my disposition towards gaming(bartle type: achiever, that can be hard to fit in on Arm).  I have said and done some stupid things, and fought what I thought were noble(though loosing) battles through discourse with the staff. Yet despite all that, because I am not trying to meta-game or pull the wool over their eyes, instead, honestly express my opinion and try and bring more depths and experience to the game I've gotten some karma.  And that's what its all about in the end:  earnestly trying to be a part of the in-game world.

Are you trying to meta-game win?  Are you in it purely to roll up the mul sorc and terrorize the populace, or do you take the time to try and paint a beautiful picture with the tools you have?  Maybe if you find yourself 'in a hole', you should make a few heuristics ala http://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-Parachute-Career-Changers/dp/1580085415 (http://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-Parachute-Career-Changers/dp/1580085415).   Knowing what you are, what you want, and where you're coming from can be a powerful tool.

I'm not saying the system is perfect (I've started some 'can we change the karma system' threads before).  But I am saying if you're really trying to be a part of the community, the 'man' isn't going to come down on you.

Quote from: Nyr on September 12, 2011, 11:51:42 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 11:34:53 PM
So basically -- What Lizzie said. If you have the balls to try to discuss Staff policy, or have an ounce of public malcontent, be prepared to make the sacrifice.

When you start out from a very extreme, negative, and opinionated public position, yes, you should be prepared to make the sacrifice.  It has nothing to do with balls and everything to do with tact.

Hmm - this has helped me decide that Reiloth may be a good candidate for the role of Socrates. Sunburned should also audition.

(Sorry Nyr, I haven't worked out a part for you yet. You're probably busy with other roles anyway. Your post just helped me decide on the casting.)

Quote from: Nyr on September 12, 2011, 11:51:42 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 11:34:53 PM
So basically -- What Lizzie said. If you have the balls to try to discuss Staff policy, or have an ounce of public malcontent, be prepared to make the sacrifice.

When you start out from a very extreme, negative, and opinionated public position, yes, you should be prepared to make the sacrifice.  It has nothing to do with balls and everything to do with tact.

We both like talking in black and whites to each other, Nyr, but like I said -- I have made that choice, and I don't really want to engage Staff in a seemingly endless uphill battle. I'll stop myself here, as I knew I could most likely only make one post before it became an obvious back and forth that requires little more public discussion.

It also doesn't help that the majority of us are used to living in a democratic state, where we not only have the right, but the duty, to question leadership.

However, on Arm, most of the "leadership" questioning boils down to Allanaki or Tuluki politics.

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a politician, and when I say things, they are plain as day. I don't feel its a fair statement to say that anyone is assuming conspiracies, but more voicing opinions.

Perhaps when staff look at players voicing themselves in a public forum, they don't assume we're all out to say "FUCK THE STAFF ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWAH". There's a feeling of belittlement enough as it is. Nes pa?

Not a bash on anyone in the staff, an expression of my often blunt, and untactful opinion. As a player of the game their are other players I trust to rp, and make it enjoyable even in the most extreme conditions pk, or attempted pk. Others I think are ignorant shits that need to learn some aspects of roleplaying, and get off their high horse. Just as I think some staff are jackasses and need to go out and get laid or something. Still I'll put my opinion in and maybe hash it out with the staff member or not. If it's not oh well he can go jump off a cliff and I'll continue to play. I'll try not to deal with him/her and if I feel slighted I'll send in one of my colorful complaints and be done with it.

Theirs really no sense in beating a dead dog anymore, say what you have to, let them say what you have to then go out and buy each other a beer or something. Maybe in a drunken stupor you'll suddenly realize that you as player/staff, and them as player/staff both have your heads up your ass. I know mine goes there at times, and has when dealing with a staff member before. Do I hold it against them no, I realize that his/her head and mine where located somewhere they shouldn't be. Sometimes the faults  mine and sometimes it isn't.

Yes I think I'm rather good at staying in character and doing stuff that they would do other times I want to beat myself for some ignorant thing I've done and that one ignorant thing might be what the staff see. Hopefully it isn't what ruins there trust I don't think their that petty or viscous towards someone. Though sometimes yeah it seems that way, if a player has a problem and puts in a staff complaint to one staff then I hope that another deals with it, if the player doesn't feel it's been handled correctly.

quick summary: say what you have to say then get over it, and go back to playing or staffing. If your not getting karma send in a request say hey wtf I've been rp'n my ass off and I'm not getting any karma. If the answer is you suck, do better. If it's your an ass deal with it, then go back to playing. Though hopefully the answer will be more descriptive, then mine. They usually are, and remember assumption begins with three letters ass. everyone got one got one and some forget to wash em.

Oh and faith I would put more faith if I didn't have to ask for notes if I'm doing something wrong, I want to know before that so I can  correct it or bitch at you.

I keep starting to make a response to any number of things in this thread, and then I pretty much feel like, "Eh, fuck it, what's the point." So I don't  ???

Threads like this don't help with the issue of player-staff trust (which is a two-way thing) at all. That's not to say there shouldn't be conversation about this topic, because there should; but there are ways to say things that make it more likely that someone will listen to you, and ways to say things that make it less likely. This thread is full of less-likely. No one likes to be yelled at, no one wants to hang out with people who make a habit of bitching and nagging and whining, and as polite and well-intentioned as the initial post is there's been quite a bit of degeneration into that kind of negativity. The rationale that's often given, and has been given here: "I shouldn't have to modify my tone or words in order for you to listen," is all well and good, but it's just not a practice that works in the real world.

Also it's a little deliciously ironic that a karma system change which sprang from staff's listening to the feedback of players over many years (about supporting casual play, making for more flexibility in guilds and subguilds, limiting magickers, making karma more transparent and fair, etc etc) has now spawned a thread about how much players don't trust staff because staff don't listen.

I'm not going to say much on this subject, because...well, frankly, I don't want to be attached to it in any way.  However, my lack of attachment seems to be giving some players the personal license to speak in my name, so I'll make this short and sweet:

I have no problems with the staff.  I have spoken my mind to the staff in the past, even to the point of having had some colorful arguments with Sanvean back on Isca.  If I ever have a problem with the staff, this is not the place I would take it to; that would be the complaints section on the request tool.  My silence on here is not a fear of reprisal.  Please stop trying to speak for me because I'm being silent.  I'm silent because I don't share the same opinion as you.  Please respect my difference of opinion and stop using the royal "We" for the entire playerbase in threads like this.

I'm having a blast playing Arm, incidentally.  The new changes are cool, and I look forward to seeing the karma system evolve.

I'm pretty tired, so this may be rather scattered.  Forgive me in advance.

Relations between staff and players, in my opinion, is best described in a workplace setting.  Staff, particularly those in charge of clans or in oversight positions (which is most of them), represent the equivalent of a project manager, while as the roles of players are a bit more spread out:
KARMA - A member of several past projects who has been granted, through experience, the larger roles within projects with less oversight.  They have the power to mess with projects more, they have more weight to swing around, because even when they -do- mess with the project itself, it's been shown to be beneficial to the project in some way.  They have a good business relationship with various project managers and are time tested.
SPECIAL APPLICATION - Less time tested, but with positive experience in the past that lets project managers feel fairly comfortable with giving them more to bite than they've previously chewed.  They are, however, more closely watched in their involvement with projects to see how they use that bigger chunk than they've previously had.
SPONSORED ROLE - These are things such as nobles or GMH family members.  They -require- coordination with project managers, it is a tight knit relationship in which interaction with project managers is a requirement not only for the player, but for the project manager.  It requires involvement for their role in the project.

Now, the reason I use the above viewpoint is more for an explanation of staff actions than player actions.  Players often feel disgruntled about not being able to receive one of the above places in the project and having to settle for their default grunt position in the project.  However, with the workplace analogy, it's easy to forget that you may not have the rapport with project managers yet.  Particularly in the place of the sponsored role, there are FEW project managers who want to hire someone onto their team in a broad impact role where constant interaction with managers is a must with someone who has a history of brow beating, arguing, and essentially an all around -bad- work relationship.

Staff, players need to realize, have a lot of things on their plate.  They have a lot of things they want to do in this volunteer job they perform.  Sometimes, they give the benefit of the doubt, but as a general rule, no project manager with other goals and duties wants to enter into a high-maintainence, stressed work relationship.  Such is why it's important to not be such in your first few sponsored roles and special applications, because generally speaking, they are the stepping stones to KARMA due to proving yourself a valuable member of the same team in the workplace.  In more simple terms?  It's not a personal judgment.  It's not a personal relationship.  Treat it as what it is, which is an agreement to work towards common goals with your project manager.  If those goals are constantly being muddied and postponed and tossed out due to a bad relationship, you won't find other relationships forthcoming.

Looking at this any other way, I think, is detrimental to the player.  Do not make yourself a source of stress, or you'll be one of those unfortunate things dropped as stress inducing.  We all know stress is bad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That being said, I've been playing this game for about thirteen years now, with some breaks involved.  I've had -long- periods of time where I was, I'm fairly sure, a stress inducer.  I've had periods of time where I passionately butted heads, and where I was utterly convinced -I- was right, and -staff- was wrong, and I wanted to fight for it.  In the past, I've done that in a multitude of ways, most of them recognizable as poor ways of handling it at best, at this point.

So.  More in line with the actual topic...player/staff faith issues.  Much like Reiloth said, I learned to start steering clear of staff unless it was necessary and pertinent.  In the broad sense...they run the game, and run it well, and I have no lack of faith in their ability to do that.  Armageddon Staff has always excelled at maintaining business relationships with its players, and trying to push things out of that realm rarely goes well.  So instead, go with the flow, avoid causing problems, and you're good.

However, the problem comes in where personal judgments come into play, and not purely business ones.  I'm somewhat hesitant when it comes to karma reviews, when it comes to 'being watched' to be judged on my significance to the game.  The post from Adhira about Karma adjustments with requests for account notes makes me uneasy, because those were previously where I looked to find guidance on improvement, and now must worry that staff that do not have any relationship with me will take a look over those earlier years (I never made the mistake of trying to dodge bad notes by making a new account..it seemed untrustworthy) and wonder...'How the fuck does this guy have karma?'  In the case that you are merely a non-troublemaker, you rarely find yourself splurged with positive feedback...as you're purposely staying out of the way and purposely staying out of trouble.  You're trying not to be high-maintainence.

Now, that may seem like a ramble, but the point is this:  There are quite a few very good roleplayers who contribute on the small scale who are that exact relationship archtype, the non-troublemaker.  Whether they have bad history, or just have always been that way...I, personally, do not have faith in staff or players alike to make what actually comes down to a personal judgment of the PLAYER or STAFF MEMBER's character, because that is not the business relationship that is emphasized in the game.  In a sense, I have qualms that people will be overlooked where they should not due to lack of consistent documentation of their strengths.  I have qualms that bad histories will be even harder to combat.  I have qualms that bad events will continue to obscure and hide good events since they are more regularly documented.

Granted.  None of this changes anything from old karma system to new, but this is a derail thread about lack of faith.  First and foremost, the first part of this post and what I'd like other players to see.  It's easy to get blinded by personal investment in this game, to feel 'cheated out of things' and react poorly.  You have got to remember that you're building your resume for your next project team, which is part of the whole project team that is this game.

I hope some bit of this or another makes sense to both sides.  In a sense, I'm pretty meh on the whole thing.  As stated...I just try and stay out of the way for the most part.

Intrepid -- I wasn't aware we were speaking on your behalf. Many players are totally content with current Staff, their policy, and the 'way things are going', vets included. And that's totally cool.

Quote from: Talia on September 13, 2011, 02:41:39 AM
Also it's a little deliciously ironic that a karma system change which sprang from staff's listening to the feedback of players over many years (about supporting casual play, making for more flexibility in guilds and subguilds, limiting magickers, making karma more transparent and fair, etc etc) has now spawned a thread about how much players don't trust staff because staff don't listen.

I don't think that's what this thread is about. It seems to me more like some players feel like their ability to play the game (and specifics related to that, such as karma levels and likelihood of getting special/sponsored applications approved) is hampered by bad blood between them and individual staffers.

If I had that particular problem myself I would deal with it through private channels, as Nyr suggested above, and likewise I have suggested to players who have let off steam in my presence that they do the same. That being said, none of the fellow players who mention their problems to me ever seem to get them resolved, regardless of their communications with staff. Even as an uninvolved third party these situations bum me out, since I like most of Arm's players and I also like most of Arm's staff and hence I don't want them hostile to each other.

Anyway, if I had a constructive solution to offer I'd offer it here. But I don't. Dunno.

Here's my take from a totally disconnected point of view at this time:

People are people.

Staff are people.

Players are people.

Both play the game to have fun.  Staff just have more 'responsibility' that they have chosen to take upon themselves. 

Thank the staff for being staff.  Forgive the staff for being human.  Forgive yourselves for being human and..

PLAY THE GAME FOR FUN. 

Some things don't change and human nature is one of those.  But, I implore anyone who has 'problems' with staff and staff who have 'issues' with players to take a moment and remember, hey, we all love this here game and we want to have fun.  Just remember, different types of personalities obtain fun through different means and it takes all types to make Arm what it is... even newbie killers to maintain the killer atmosphere that is Armageddon.

Ahh, if only there were more pkill muds out there these days that would migrate over to Arm like the "good old days."  Go go pkmud.

Tangent aside:  Play arm and try to stop being haters due to people being people.. unless they are bad people and then ban them.

Personally, I'm all for the new addition and think that the chance to customize further is brilliant. I also like the idea of regulating how many Psi/Sorc/Nilazi are running around at any given time, making them that much more scary. And the ability to customize magickal classes or add some magick to a mundane or some mundane skills to a magicker.. this is brilliant. I'm not an 8 Karma player myself but I have no doubt that if I submit an inspired character concept the staff will work with me on realizing it, and I've had a 'colorful' 18 year experience with Armageddon. :)

More importantly, marko makes an interesting point:

Quote from: marko on September 13, 2011, 03:29:23 AM
Here's my take from a totally disconnected point of view at this time:

People are people.

Staff are people.

Players are people.

Echoed in this clip from Muppets Take Manhattan (watch this immediately):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQgfgB-vgT0

Quote from: Reiloth on September 13, 2011, 12:45:06 AM

Quote from: Nyr on September 12, 2011, 11:51:42 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 11:34:53 PM
So basically -- What Lizzie said. If you have the balls to try to discuss Staff policy, or have an ounce of public malcontent, be prepared to make the sacrifice.

When you start out from a very extreme, negative, and opinionated public position, yes, you should be prepared to make the sacrifice.  It has nothing to do with balls and everything to do with tact.

We both like talking in black and whites to each other, Nyr, but like I said -- I have made that choice, and I don't really want to engage Staff in a seemingly endless uphill battle. I'll stop myself here, as I knew I could most likely only make one post before it became an obvious back and forth that requires little more public discussion.

That is an example of using tact properly when discussing matters with staff.  Kudos!  If you would like to proceed in a discussion with staff, tone down rhetoric and engage via request. 

Quote from: Riev on September 13, 2011, 12:48:56 AMI don't feel its a fair statement to say that anyone is assuming conspiracies, but more voicing opinions.

Someone suggested that a producer could be colluding with a lower staff member in order to back them up when complaints come up, and vice versa.  They wanted to know what staff would do about this. This is an opinion, yes.  It is also a conspiracy theory.  There is no validity to it.  At some point, it has to be called what it is:  silly.

Quote from: jstorrie on September 13, 2011, 03:11:00 AM
If I had that particular problem myself I would deal with it through private channels, as Nyr suggested above, and likewise I have suggested to players who have let off steam in my presence that they do the same. That being said, none of the fellow players who mention their problems to me ever seem to get them resolved, regardless of their communications with staff.

You shouldn't feel bummed out.  If a player is venting to another player but never seems to get their "problems with staff" resolved, perhaps they're approaching the situation wrong.  Perhaps they are not actually approaching staff.  Perhaps they are, as I mentioned earlier, completely in the wrong, and distorting things to you entirely.  I do know that we can't do anything about hypothetical player friends with hypothetical problems.  I don't disbelieve you in this case--I'm not saying you don't have these friends with these problems, but I am saying that as far as we are concerned, they don't exist, because we don't know who they are. Hell, I dunno--tell me who these people are in a request.  If nothing else, I can assuage your bummed-out-ness by looking into each situation and offering a very, very vague "well, they're not telling you the entire truth" answer or even a "hmm, there's something up, here" answer.  Then it's up to you whether or not to believe me, and if they have a legitimate issue, it's up to them to work with us to address it.

In particular, I agree with Sunburned's assertion that we need to communicate better on both sides of the equation and narrow the gap between Us and Them, regardless of which side of that divide we're on.
That might best start with losing pejorative words. That means losing words like unfairn and resorting to name calling. It also means that even when we don't like people's comments we don't leave them feeling dismissed or scolded.
Maybe the problem is that we think the other side should stop wanting to be coddled, what with it being a harsh game world and all. But we'd all do better to leave the Harsh in the confines of the browser and let civility and active listening be the default on all out of character interaction.

I think Armaddict's explanation of the staff-player relationship as a working relationship is really, really good.

I also don't really get where the paranoia about "one staffer ruining the game for me forever" comes from. There is no one staffer who is in day to day charge of everything in the game. If you don't like one Storyteller, it's very easy to play in an area where that person has little influence. For example, at present I can give my opinion on the northlands or the desert elves, but staffers there are under absolutely no obligation to listen to me. They can take someone on in a sponsored role that I don't like as a player, or with whom I've had problems as a staffer; that's their choice. And vice versa, southlands staff can put someone in a sponsored role that staff of another area don't like or have had problems with. Also, staff move around; you can be pretty sure that some staffer you've decided you don't like won't be in charge of an area forever. Your chance to play there without that person's eye on you will come.

Or, I can give my opinion on whether or not I think someone should be at karma level X when a Producer is doing an account notes review, but they have zero requirement to listen to me. Will they listen to my opinion and weigh it against their own opinion, and the opinions of other staffers? Yes, probably. This is why we communicate as a team, so that the best decisions can be reached, considered from many perspectives.

I guess it's possible that what you all mean is that Adhira, Nessalin, or Morgenes could forever stifle your chances of getting to do something in the game...but, seriously? That's not their job. They do overall game oversight. They have better things to do than watch the request queue constantly, just waiting for your request to come in so they can slap you down.

Quote from: Armaddict on September 13, 2011, 02:50:22 AM
However, the problem comes in where personal judgments come into play, and not purely business ones.  I'm somewhat hesitant when it comes to karma reviews, when it comes to 'being watched' to be judged on my significance to the game.  The post from Adhira about Karma adjustments with requests for account notes makes me uneasy, because those were previously where I looked to find guidance on improvement, and now must worry that staff that do not have any relationship with me will take a look over those earlier years (I never made the mistake of trying to dodge bad notes by making a new account..it seemed untrustworthy) and wonder...'How the fuck does this guy have karma?'  In the case that you are merely a non-troublemaker, you rarely find yourself splurged with positive feedback...as you're purposely staying out of the way and purposely staying out of trouble.  You're trying not to be high-maintainence.

Long-ago poor notes really aren't weighed that heavily when it comes to the question of karma. What seems to matter is what you've been doing the past few to couple years. Also, to be honest, I haven't ever seen a staffer say, "Well, I HEARD this guy did..." For one thing, there are probably staff around who can speak for themselves about what you did, if you did something, because we have some staff who've been around for a long time. For another thing...well, I just don't see why a staffer would deliberately attempt to paint anyone poorly with hearsay, nor do I see why other staffers would accept it as valid evidence. That seems like an imagined outcome to me.

...

From my own personal experience as a player, all I can really say is that our staff are bigger than the opinions they hold of people, and they have the considered ability to give people chances. I wouldn't be on staff if they hadn't taken a risk on me; many staffers had misgivings about me. And, I wouldn't say they were wrong in what they thought about me nor about how I needed to grow as a player and person in order to do well at staffing. (People who are close to me in real life would also agree with some of the things that staff perceived about me.) I had some things that I'd done which I needed to work to get past with them, so what I did is listened to the feedback I'd received and made changes over time.

This has been an, oddly, mature discussion. I think the possibilities far outweigh the 'possible negatives.'

I wish I could show you my account notes. You would see first hand how one player can 'F' things up and still get by. I was accused of various things, by having a note attached to my account. A month later, another Immortal posted a rebuttal on my behalf. I didn't find out any of this until I requested my account notes later that year. The Administrators have good checks and balances in place these days. On my first account, ten years ago, it was much different and it felt like I was always getting harassed by the same immortal. Like they were following me around just to 'F' with me. I haven't seen anything near that problem with my current account.

I have seen people get harassed by the immortals, but let's face it. Those two each brought it on themselves by completely trying to game the system, power play, and be giant assholes. i haven't seen either of them in a while though.

Having known several staff members on a personal out of character level over the years I can say that it is very much a common misconception that the staff are out to get you.

Keep in mind that staffers were once just normal players, just like you, and some of them even felt like the staff hated them at one point too.

Such is the nature of the beast. Where there is a hierarchy there will always be dissent, justified or not.

Staff may hate you, but the fact is, they can't do much to you without the consent of a governing body. Now, if the entire governing body hates you, well, stop being a douche, or just play mundanes/avoid playing in clans.

From my experience I have done some things I am not proud of and I have voiced this to the staff. Nyr has been more than fair with me even though I have let him down one or twice in the past.  They still have allowed me to make special applications and given me a fair shake in everything I have done since making my mistakes to be honest.

I could understand how you could feel snubbed for awhile but trust me even when you make mistakes I don't think they will hold a grudge, like someone else said Business relationships it's not personal.

Just my two sid'.
Derain.

Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2011, 08:18:19 AM

Quote from: Riev on September 13, 2011, 12:48:56 AMI don't feel its a fair statement to say that anyone is assuming conspiracies, but more voicing opinions.

Someone suggested that a producer could be colluding with a lower staff member in order to back them up when complaints come up, and vice versa.  They wanted to know what staff would do about this. This is an opinion, yes.  It is also a conspiracy theory.  There is no validity to it.  At some point, it has to be called what it is:  silly.

Quote from: jstorrie on September 13, 2011, 03:11:00 AM
If I had that particular problem myself I would deal with it through private channels, as Nyr suggested above, and likewise I have suggested to players who have let off steam in my presence that they do the same. That being said, none of the fellow players who mention their problems to me ever seem to get them resolved, regardless of their communications with staff.

You shouldn't feel bummed out.  If a player is venting to another player but never seems to get their "problems with staff" resolved, perhaps they're approaching the situation wrong.  Perhaps they are not actually approaching staff.  Perhaps they are, as I mentioned earlier, completely in the wrong, and distorting things to you entirely.  I do know that we can't do anything about hypothetical player friends with hypothetical problems.  I don't disbelieve you in this case--I'm not saying you don't have these friends with these problems, but I am saying that as far as we are concerned, they don't exist, because we don't know who they are. Hell, I dunno--tell me who these people are in a request.  If nothing else, I can assuage your bummed-out-ness by looking into each situation and offering a very, very vague "well, they're not telling you the entire truth" answer or even a "hmm, there's something up, here" answer.  Then it's up to you whether or not to believe me, and if they have a legitimate issue, it's up to them to work with us to address it.

It's a bit one-sided, and black and white as I said earlier Nyr, to say a player could be completely in the wrong. I think players can be woefully misinformed, or partially in the wrong, but the same can happen with Staff. I think the first step towards better communication between Staff and Players is to become less black and white when we speak or refer to each other. We as Players and Staff need to realize we're all human beings here. We make mistakes, we forget to use tact, we are sometimes right on, and other times, totally off base. But we have to stop using such extremes when speaking with each other as it just further alienates one side or the other. Staff always do this, Players are completely wrong, extremely negative, etc.

And as far as 'who these people are', I think this thread can be gone through without much scrutiny and it can be seen pretty clearly. I have clearly unresolved issues with Staff, and I don't know that any amount of private 'request' conversations can change that. I think time and distance will, and that's cool.

I can see where your coming from Reiloth, I had to remember to report before acting and try my hardest to check things in the docs after I made a couple of the mistakes i've made and distance and being quite awhile did help me.

Quote from: Reiloth on September 13, 2011, 12:54:01 PM
It's a bit one-sided, and black and white as I said earlier Nyr, to say a player could be completely in the wrong. I think players can be woefully misinformed, or partially in the wrong, but the same can happen with Staff. I think the first step towards better communication between Staff and Players is to become less black and white when we speak or refer to each other. We as Players and Staff need to realize we're all human beings here. We make mistakes, we forget to use tact, we are sometimes right on, and other times, totally off base. But we have to stop using such extremes when speaking with each other as it just further alienates one side or the other. Staff always do this, Players are completely wrong, extremely negative, etc.

And as far as 'who these people are', I think this thread can be gone through without much scrutiny and it can be seen pretty clearly. I have clearly unresolved issues with Staff, and I don't know that any amount of private 'request' conversations can change that. I think time and distance will, and that's cool.

I don't believe there has been a single staff post that says 'all players always'.  We are all a diverse lot of people, each with our own set of ideas, thoughts, hopes, ideals and prejudices. As a staff, we strive to maintain a professional attitude both in game, and on the discussion boards.  This is part of the staff contract that every staff member has to agree to before becoming staff.  We are not all perfect, and we have all messed up, and when noted, it gets corrected and we move on.  Part of that is not wanting to air personal business on public channels.  We don't post on the GDB when we have to talk to a staff member about an issue, same as we don't post when we talk to players about issues.

It is each of your choice on how to communicate with staff, if you choose not to communicate, that is also your choice.  If you want to have a discussion about your particular situation (and I'm not directing this at any one of you, just in general), please put in a request and indicate you would like it to be reviewed by a producer.  We will be happy to talk over the issues you perceive and where we stand on it and what we would hope to see from you in the future if there is a problem.

Hm Morgenes I never though about just having a heart to heart with a producer, perhaps it isn't a bad idea.

If you think a staff member is being unfair, prejudiced based on former encounters, or uncouth, then you should submit a staff complaint, and one of the producers will take a look at the situation and hopefully give serious counsel to the offending staff member.  I did this recently, and the response I received from one of the Producers was timely and polite.  If one staff member receives many more staff complaints than other staffers, then I believe they should be demoted or put on a probationary period of sorts.  While on probation, maybe this staff member's ability to dispense/remove karma should be put on hold, perhaps along with other responsibilities

I honestly believe many staff members do a fine job at remaining objective.  Others do not.  For example, one staff member, who may or may not be posting in this very  thread, once told me (in an uncouth fashion) that I would never be allowed to play in one of their clans again after a disagreement between the two of us.  It sucks, but it happens.  People get pissed and hold grudges.  Players get pissed and hold grudges FOR A LONG TIME, and staff get pissed and hold grudges FOR A LONG TIME.  That's how the world is, and unfortunately the real world far-too-often spills into this wonderful game, which many of us have been playing for a five years, a decade, or longer.  I do not think this is a healthy trend, and I do not think those in positions of authority should hold grudges against players because it affects things like special roles, karma, etc.  It affects partiality. It's a real world problem, and it's an Armageddon problem.  What's a solution to this problem?  How about:  forgive and forget.  But that's easier said than done.

Staff come and go; the staff who are here now and who may not agree with your playing style may not be staff three months or three years from now.  If the bias of a single staff member is of concern to you, then please rest well knowing that other staff members may come along who do not have these biases; conversely, "fresh" staff members may think you're the hottest thing on the roleplaying circuit since Thrain Ironsword and likewise draw attention to or "discover" your prowess as a player of Armageddon.  The staff who granted me my original karma points (full karma) are long gone --- wayyy gone.  The only staff member to have removed a karma point from me is also gone -- at least from the forums.  I had spurned her romantic advances when we were players (I was a teenager and she was in her late twenties).  In fact, it was so creepy when we were players that I blocked her from my AIM list.  After that, she became a staff member and eventually removed one point of karma from my account for a debateable infraction.  Was this decision completely objective, or was it based on an all-too-personal grudge?  That's not to be debated here, but it happened and (to me) is proof of how players can suffer as the result of the "humanness" of staff.   That ancedote also demonstrates how staff members who grief you may not be around forever, allowing for more fresh perspectives through which your playing style may be evaluated.

I don't think most staff members hold these sorts of grudges.  At least, I woud hope not.  If they do - or if you perceive they do - then I think these instances should be reported to the Producers of the game.  Staff members who consistently are complained about should be put under more thorough scrutiny by the Producers, and players who consistently play outside of the staff's perception of "good roleplay" should be counseled and advised, not simply karma black-listed.

Having said that, I think the new karma system will have a great impact on moving away from this "karma/special roles black list" policy.  It is definitely a step in the right direction, and I applaud those who took the time to work out all the kinks.

Quote from: Reiloth on September 13, 2011, 12:54:01 PM
It's a bit one-sided, and black and white as I said earlier Nyr, to say a player could be completely in the wrong. I think players can be woefully misinformed, or partially in the wrong, but the same can happen with Staff. I think the first step towards better communication between Staff and Players is to become less black and white when we speak or refer to each other. We as Players and Staff need to realize we're all human beings here. We make mistakes, we forget to use tact, we are sometimes right on, and other times, totally off base. But we have to stop using such extremes when speaking with each other as it just further alienates one side or the other. Staff always do this, Players are completely wrong, extremely negative, etc.

And as far as 'who these people are', I think this thread can be gone through without much scrutiny and it can be seen pretty clearly. I have clearly unresolved issues with Staff, and I don't know that any amount of private 'request' conversations can change that. I think time and distance will, and that's cool.

Well, that's why I said "perhaps."  I was listing a series of possibilities.  I didn't list every possibility.

I looked over this thread and didn't see anyone here who had an issue where a player was not getting their issue resolved with staff.  I can see several where the issue was not resolved to the player's liking.  There is no "bad blood" in those cases.  There might be some bad notes.  If that's the problem, then I can't say there's a way to "bridge the gap," here.  The player needs to do better.

Even your "clearly unresolved issues with staff," as you put it, could actually be resolved if you actually talked to staff about them instead of posting about it here on the GDB.  If staff respond to your role application with a rejection stating that it was a tough choice, but that one of the things that stood out was your GDB conduct with regards to something that affected their trust of you, is the proper response really to bring that to the GDB as well?  How are you proving your trustworthiness?  I see no indication of you responding to that request, by the way--you brought it here.  If you replied via e-mail, well, we do prefer to have things in the request tool for several reasons, two of them being accountability and historical documentation.

When we have an issue with a player, we do not go the GDB about it.  We go to the player.  Do us the same courtesy that we do you, and come to staff if you have a problem, complaint, or question.

I don't see any documentation stating that I as a Player don't have the right to air my discontent with the Staff in a public fashion. Whether or not it does any good is a different story.

I also have no aspirations to cow to Staff if I honestly disagree with you, even if that disagreement is my GDB conduct. Sorry. If you do not like my GDB conduct, you can feel free to twit me.

Quote from: Reiloth on September 13, 2011, 01:23:46 PM
I don't see any documentation stating that I as a Player don't have the right to air my discontent with the Staff in a public fashion. Whether or not it does any good is a different story.

From the Forum Rules post in the Staff Announcements forum:

1. Please don't flame. While you can criticize the opinions of other people, do so with respect for them as a fellow human.  Unneccessary, flaming, baiting and trolling will be removed and the instigator and respondees may have their posting privileges revoked.  This rule extends to criticism and baiting of staff. If you have a complaint against a staff member please place a complaint via the request tool, complaints and flaming of staff on the boards will not be tolerated.

Emphasis mine.

I also told myself I wouldn't keep posting in this thread, so i'll definitely stop. I promise!

Also -- Nyr -- I forgot that you can reply to closed requests. I'll do that.

Hey Morg, is that rule for criticizing  Staff as an entity as well as "staffers"?

Because I can understand it applying to Individual staffers, but if talking about staff as a whole then that sort of thing is exactly what this entire thread is about, or at least one entire paragraph of the OP.

Which is the FACT, not opinion, that players are not allowed to openly critisize staff as a whole or policy but only in a "locked room" Basis. IE Take it to the request tool, where You are alone and We (staff) as a group can go over what you (alone) Think, then we, as a group will come up with some sort of answer, which we don't expect you to air openly.

Now, from the staff side this might seem perfectly reasonable and professional, but as others have stated, we are all people and people tend to feel ganged up on when they are forced to go up against a group alone...actually, I think that is the definition of being ganged up on.

Let me repeat what I think is the most important part of my original post:

Quote from: Sunburned on September 12, 2011, 09:50:15 PM
I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.

When I wrote this, what I had in mind is pretty simple - there's plenty of work to be done on the current incarnation of Arm, and there's absolutely no reason why all that work must be on the backs of the staff.  I'd like to see players take more initiative in updating clan documentation, for one.

I think that if there were more official avenues for players and staff to work together in building/creating/writing for this game, a lot of the old bitterness (if relevant) could be worked through.  Its about a shared investment and turning passions to constructive ends, while improving our game world.

-

Quote from: Sunburned on September 13, 2011, 02:22:32 PM
Let me repeat what I think is the most important part of my original post:

Quote from: Sunburned on September 12, 2011, 09:50:15 PM
I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.

When I wrote this, what I had in mind is pretty simple - there's plenty of work to be done on the current incarnation of Arm, and there's absolutely no reason why all that work must be on the backs of the staff.  I'd like to see players take more initiative in updating clan documentation, for one.

I think that if there were more official avenues for players and staff to work together in building/creating/writing for this game, a lot of the old bitterness (if relevant) could be worked through.  Its about a shared investment and turning passions to constructive ends, while improving our game world.

This already has happened to some extent. Players could write for staff:
- When staff call for item/tattoo submissions on the GDB (this doesn't happen a lot, but it happens often enough to be noticeable and a lot of people get an opportunity to write if they want to)
- When players are crafting an item (e.g., mastercrafts)
- When rooms are being added to the game or changed by the player's PC (this has happened in the past year).
- When documentation is needed (ever notice the player names credited at the end of public or sometimes clan documentation? Yeah, some haven't been updated in a while, but it's happened before)
- On a whim (Staff also gave us the player collaboration forum which allows us to write documentation more easily than ever before. Sadly, it is pretty underutilized.)

So there is actually plenty of opportunities to get cracking on writing for the game.

Edited for clarification

Quote from: Reiloth on September 13, 2011, 02:24:57 PM
I would gladly submit pages upon pages of clan documentation to be reviewed, edited, denied, and accepted by Staff.

OK, so, do it?

Is there a rule somewhere that states players must always await directive from staff before offering to work on something? I'm pretty sure not. Do we have a current policy in place where plots, projects, and initiatives come from player side? Yes, we do.

Often I think the only thing that gets in the way of players doing what they so vociferously state they want to do is themselves. Waiting around for staff to say, for example, "Hey dudes let's update the Byn documents" isn't necessary. If you're in the Byn and want to help update the docs, well, propose that to your clan staff.

Stop having an oppositional defiant relationship with staff and start having a collaborative one.

I wonder if you guys also think that I wait around for my Admin to tell me what to do in the game or for my clans? Nope, I don't. Rather, I propose stuff, they say yes/no/maybe/modify, then after reaching consensus I proceed to plan. Very rarely an Admin or Producer might actually direct me to do something in particular, and usually that's got to do with solving a problem rather than initiating work.

I have frequently solicited documentation questions from people in the clans that I'm working over and have used that to provide documentation both in the past and currently.  (One of those clans--you know who you are--got a lot of documentation updated recently.)  Unfortunately, not all documentation stuff done is public, though, and many of those things are left to those clan boards.  We do have a submissions forum for things if we need them (for either game, too).

Open up dialogue with a question request if nothing else.  (It does help if you're playing in the clan in question.)  Now, it may be that your stuff gets taken and just put aside for review later--sometimes other projects take priority.

Do you mean that we need another way to recognize players that have contributed to something, or another way for them to contribute?  I want to be sure we're on the same page!

I do have to say.

On clan docs, it has been my experience that staff is  receptive if not downright happy when players help.

I've left my fingerprint on several clans over the years...sometimes an entire handprint. And I've seen many other players do the same.

Usually all it takes is.

Hey, I think this and this should be fleshed out, I have ideas for it, and that should be revamped totally, I have ideas on that too.

Usually the answer will be You have Ideas, Lets hear em!

Quote from: X-D on September 13, 2011, 02:47:21 PM
Usually all it takes is.

Hey, I think this and this should be fleshed out, I have ideas for it, and that should be revamped totally, I have ideas on that too.

You only had to do that?

The things that I had to do to get Tlaloc to change stuff.. oh the horrors!

But, for serious, staff are real people with real feelings and real cool quirks.

Conversely, they are also real people with real feelings and can get angry.  Duh. 

If you poke at the staff long enough with a dedicated enough stick, you'll get black-listed for sure.  But, that's your own doing cowboy! 

That statement is generic and not intended for any particular audience member.  Although, there is a rather cute one out there being a clown and he is pretty sexy with his R name and all.

I cannot stress this enough:  Staff members are human beings first.  They have lives (well, most do, really.. sometimes.. kinda.. it depends who) and they have their foibles.  Most I've ever met or dealt with were salt of the saltflats - crazy cool people.  Some were, and are, definitely "weird birds" but, let's face it, the majority of the Armageddon community fits under that category in some way, shape, or form.

So hold hands, sing songs, and group hug.  Then get killed by a crazed krathi cooking up her own brand of bbq.  Deal with it.  It's Arm. 

I try to be as objective as possible in all my dealings with you guys, because I love you to bits and understand that you put as much time and effort into making Arm what it is as we do, if on a different level. If I feel there's something negative which needs to be noted, I ALWAYS call in a second member and ask them to watch or discuss things with them before doing so. And, failing that, if I feel like there's even a QUESTION about whether or not I can be a fair and objective judge in a situation, I stop dealing with the person and pull back for a few weeks to let someone else handle their reports/requests for the time being, until I -am- 100% confident that I can be.

There's a lot of friction on both sides of the equation at various different times and for various reasons. Sometimes people 'do' have a hard time being objective, but given that we are entirely NOT allowed to have anything to do with anyone our character might have anything to do with IC, it will never be over something personal which happened in game. There are a lot of rules, procedures, and red tape drawn all over in attempts to keep things as fair and unbiased as possible. And for the most part, I think it works out fairly well.

Quote from: marko on September 13, 2011, 09:08:37 PM

Quote from: X-D on September 13, 2011, 02:47:21 PM
Usually all it takes is.

Hey, I think this and this should be fleshed out, I have ideas for it, and that should be revamped totally, I have ideas on that too.

You only had to do that?

The things that I had to do to get Tlaloc to change stuff.. oh the horrors!

But, for serious, staff are real people with real feelings and real cool quirks.

Conversely, they are also real people with real feelings and can get angry.  Duh.  

If you poke at the staff long enough with a dedicated enough stick, you'll get black-listed for sure.  But, that's your own doing cowboy!  

That statement is generic and not intended for any particular audience member.  Although, there is a rather cute one out there being a clown and he is pretty sexy with his R name and all.

I cannot stress this enough:  Staff members are human beings first.  They have lives (well, most do, really.. sometimes.. kinda.. it depends who) and they have their foibles.  Most I've ever met or dealt with were salt of the saltflats - crazy cool people.  Some were, and are, definitely "weird birds" but, let's face it, the majority of the Armageddon community fits under that category in some way, shape, or form.

So hold hands, sing songs, and group hug.  Then get killed by a crazed krathi cooking up her own brand of bbq.  Deal with it.  It's Arm.  

Sage advice, marko, albeit a bit detached and general, considering you haven't played in a while. I'm glad you find me cute :)

I think there are plenty of valid points on both sides of this, and Staff and Players can both be absolute ninnies to each other. But, at the end of the day, we're all here to have fun. So let's do that!

Quote from: Sunburned on September 13, 2011, 02:22:32 PM
Let me repeat what I think is the most important part of my original post:

Quote from: Sunburned on September 12, 2011, 09:50:15 PM
I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.

When I wrote this, what I had in mind is pretty simple - there's plenty of work to be done on the current incarnation of Arm, and there's absolutely no reason why all that work must be on the backs of the staff.  I'd like to see players take more initiative in updating clan documentation, for one.

I think that if there were more official avenues for players and staff to work together in building/creating/writing for this game, a lot of the old bitterness (if relevant) could be worked through.  Its about a shared investment and turning passions to constructive ends, while improving our game world.

As others have said, sometimes it's just as simple as just asking. Not too long ago, I was interested in making a change for a location IC, because there was something in it that was neat, and I wanted to update/elaborate on it. When I sent in my character report, I asked about changing this and updating it. They said they'd love it if I would, and I wrote something up. They tweaked it, and it got put into the game. I now have a game room I can point at and say "I did that!".

I have also made an item in the past before, which was put in game. I think the sometimes frustrating thing about working with getting things put in game, is that at one point in time your current staff may not want to work on a project. Then, later new staff may want to do it. It can leave a person feeling a little bit discouraged. However, I think the policy of remembering that staff are people is a good one. There may be circumstances with the one group of staff that made them not want to pursue something, or a lack of interest. With the new staff, the circumstances may have changed, and it might just be something that a staffer feels really passionate about.

I'd also like to say that staff has been pretty open to contributions. We were interested in having a way that players could contribute more, and the Player Collaboration (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/board,75.0.html) forum was made for us. It isn't used to anywhere near it's full potential. We also got a Original Submissions Section (http://www.armageddon.org/original/showType.php?type=Documentation) just for player-designed guides. There is a lot of potential in both those areas, and both were made by staff because players asked and wanted to contribute.

Finally, while it is not adding to the game in terms of building, players can ask to become helpers. Currently you have to specifically ask about it, but if you're really interested in the game and have a good grasp of the game world, helping newbies is a great way to contribute.

Quote from: Reiloth on September 14, 2011, 12:04:20 AMAt the end of the day, we're all here to have fun. So let's do that!

YOU FIRST CAPT. GRUMPUS

Just posting to say I've never had a complaint about staff ever.  I don't know anybody personally on this game.  I have no connections.  I don't know any staff personally, never knew any staff personally.  I've had several characters murdered from NPC higher-end types doing in-house personnel clean-up, but they all seemed legit.  I've so far trusted staff and never felt it was used.

Quote from: Taven on September 14, 2011, 12:28:46 AM


I'd also like to say that staff has been pretty open to contributions. We were interested in having a way that players could contribute more, and the Player Collaboration (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/board,75.0.html) forum was made for us. It isn't used to anywhere near it's full potential. We also got a Original Submissions Section (http://www.armageddon.org/original/showType.php?type=Documentation) just for player-designed guides. There is a lot of potential in both those areas, and both were made by staff because players asked and wanted to contribute.

Finally, while it is not adding to the game in terms of building, players can ask to become helpers. Currently you have to specifically ask about it, but if you're really interested in the game and have a good grasp of the game world, helping newbies is a great way to contribute.

Bolded a few bits.
I personally have never had any problems with the staff, or players, I've sent in a few kudos, and one complaint, that was, quite rightly, sent back to me with a 'Get over it'.

I joined in 2008, and in the three years I've been playing, I've had nothing but support from the staff, from my first app that got denied, and kindly sent back (By Talia, I think) with some pointers, and corrections, to a short-lived Byn sarge (aren't they all?) To one absolutely epic death scene that  will stick with me until I go senile, or die, simply because I hate storing PC's.


I would like to say however, I appreciate, and thank all the staff for the time they take from their regular lives to deal with sad fools who like to kill small furry critters. Except Nyr, I'm pretty sure he has no life.  :D

Edited to remove idiocy.

Edit by me: As the entire post looked like a "Blame the staff" in the way it was written. In fact, it was more to show how bigger changes bring bigger amounts of complaints or apprehension.

One notable factor may be that it's a lot more convenient to file a staff complaint, now that there's the request tool.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but to be honest, if you're not actually professionally employed or educated in data mining and analysis then you probably shouldn't be throwing it around like you are. Just invoking my name doesn't mean your analysis is correct. For example:

-- Did you account for the possibility that the number of posts per year on the GDB has been growing? If the number of posts in a year changes, then it would be expected that the number of posts related to any given topic would change, as well. Put another way, what percentage of total posts in 2005 does your selected keyword phrase represent? Ditto for any year you queried? If the percentage of posts with the keywords "staff complaint" is actually going down, not up, then wouldn't that change your conclusion?

-- It doesn't look like you accounted for the fact that 2002 was a partial year, just as 2011 is a partial year. The GDB didn't come online until September 2002.

-- What was your reasoning behind arbitrarily choosing the period 2009-2011 to represent an increase? Did you actually graph your numbers and look at a trendline, or did you just pick something out of the air that looked like a good place to hang your analysis?

-- How did you choose your keyword phrase? Did you consider alternate phrases and mine for all of those, as well? If you didn't mine for alternate phrases, how are you certain you've represented the whole dataset?

-- Did you account for the fact that not all instances of your keyword phrase will mean what you're claiming they mean? Similarly, did you account for the fact that you may be picking up the individual words "staff" and "complaint" in a thread, when those words actually have nothing to do with each other, and therefore do not represent the disgruntlement of any particular player? For example: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40858.msg618255.html#msg618255

-- Not to mention, you averaged 2002-2009, and you also used 2009-2011...overlapping time periods? What the fuck? That simply makes no sense.

-- Modified to add: Additionally, prior to the switchover to the current GDB software late in 2008, old posts were deleted automatically unless they were archived by staff. In the new GDB, nothing is deleted. Did your analysis account for auto-deletion of posts in 2008 and prior?

In short...though I haven't been short...your analysis is inadequate and your conclusion is totally unsupported. And please don't use my name to give your analysis apparent legitimacy.

Huh, and here I thought I was simply giving props to the data queen with a little shout out. You did, in fact, come across as a jerk, if not hostile but that's text for you. Things can always be taken the wrong way. I'll refrain from invoking your all powerful GDB handle in the future though, no problem.

I'll respond to the rest of your questions when I'm done laughing.

Where is that Michael Jackson eating popcorn .gif when you need it?

I'm on it.

(http://thahiphopcorner.com/forum/Smileys/default/g-popcorn.gif)

I don't think players are necessarily more or less concerned with or annoyed by staff. I think a lot of concern gets expressed via private means, either directly to staff through the request tool, or to other players via IM, chat rooms, etc. It also sometimes gets expressed as snark which is ultimately keywordless.

In my opinion, we shouldn't be worried about how many of us are disgruntled, but rather, keeping good options open for players that are disgruntled to express their concerns.

Some of us fear reprisal from bringing concerns up on the GDB, I suppose, but I think tactful criticism that considers both sides is the best kind, and is ultimately harmless, while it still has potential to lead to good change for the way the game is run. There's always the staff complaint request for when the GDB isn't possible or a request is simply preferable.

It's very possible to contribute to the game and the documentation constructively as players, and staff are also former (and current) players. By and large, they're not automagically turning into corrupt bastards all of a sudden after joining staff. They're still hobbyists who like this game and the idea of it, and I think they have its best interests at heart, keeping things fair for everyone, or at least trying their best to do so.

Quote from: Armaddict on September 13, 2011, 02:50:22 AM
Relations between staff and players, in my opinion, is best described in a workplace setting.

This post was golden, Armaddict, and really halps my thinking on the subject.

Quote from: Lukoyin on September 16, 2011, 06:35:52 PM
Huh, and here I thought I was simply giving props to the data queen with a little shout out. You did, in fact, come across as a jerk, if not hostile but that's text for you. Things can always be taken the wrong way. I'll refrain from invoking your all powerful GDB handle in the future though, no problem.

I'll respond to the rest of your questions when I'm done laughing.

I read Gim's post and she, simply put, nailed you.

If you attempt to use a methodology to prove a point then you need to make certain you do it correctly.  Anyone who uses data analysis on a regular basis of any sort would do just what she pointed out.

Your response, the one I quoted, is the typical response of someone who got burned and is trying to 'cover' for it.  Gim didn't come across as a jerk.  She came across as on to you (and only to you) due to your defensiveness on the issue.  That, in of itself,  is amusing to me since the usual purpose of doing an analysis of that sort is to remove emotion and point out fact. 

If, and when, I make a mistake in an analysis of a situation I am always grateful for corrections. 

I, personally, wouldn't want to be associated with faulty logic and analysis either. 

I was told, after failing to get the eighth sponsored role I applied for in a row, that I was not regarded because I needed to 'regain trust' due to a staff member throwing her hate-sauce all over my account notes over two years ago.  Sometimes it doesn't matter how closely you stick to the documentation, how many player kudos you receive, no matter how passionate you are about your PCs and show it, how many reports you send in dutifully, the bios you write just for staff benefit so they can get into your PC's head better or how many years you play leader PCs out of a feeling of duty to the game that gave you so much, your karma reviews and role applications will always be determined by petty bullshit.

I stopped playing instead of trying to redeem myself in staff eyes to no avail for those two years, and I bet a lot of people feel the same and just give up. Two years is FAR too long a time to be shat on.

Quote from: Zoan on September 18, 2011, 10:36:54 PM
I was told, after failing to get the eighth sponsored role I applied for in a row, that I was not regarded because I needed to 'regain trust' due to a staff member throwing her hate-sauce all over my account notes over two years ago.  Sometimes it doesn't matter how closely you stick to the documentation, how many player kudos you receive, no matter how passionate you are about your PCs and show it, how many reports you send in dutifully, the bios you write just for staff benefit so they can get into your PC's head better or how many years you play leader PCs out of a feeling of duty to the game that gave you so much, your karma reviews and role applications will always be determined by petty bullshit.

I stopped playing instead of trying to redeem myself in staff eyes to no avail for those two years, and I bet a lot of people feel the same and just give up. Two years is FAR too long a time to be shat on.

That is inaccurate and not reflected in your account notes or character notes--that is to say, there's not any hate-sauce residue on your account notes.  I would recommend you file a staff complaint if you feel that you have been wronged in some fashion by a staffer.

I know the sensible, reasonable thing to do is to do something like that, but I am actually scared to do that. It might seem an unreasonable mindset, but it's like filing a complaint about a police officer to the police. I just have this feeling I'd get laughed at for doing it.

Quote from: Zoan on September 19, 2011, 11:58:49 AM
I know the sensible, reasonable thing to do is to do something like that, but I am actually scared to do that. It might seem an unreasonable mindset, but it's like filing a complaint about a police officer to the police. I just have this feeling I'd get laughed at for doing it.

Police actually take complaints about officers seriously (over here at least). Besides, if you raise a complaint about a staff member, it has to be looked at, the chances of a staffer saying 'Pfft, look at Zoan's complaint, little bitch should just man up' Are small, if none, seeing as Staff complaints are managed by the higher-ups.

If it's about the bad account notes, you can always e-mail saying why you think they are unfair, and why they should be removed if you feel them unjustified.

Just a little thing that made me chuckle, and how I frame this thread.  Normally, das Interwebz is a place where you aren't accountable for what you do, and actions have limited or no repercussions.  Even in most muds or mmo's you just make 'alts' and troll/grief away, or various other exploits/bad behaviors, and little can be done.

Arm is the opposite of that, where accountability and consequence is high(in and out of game, ala perma death and account management).  Seems only natural people would get rather riled up when they experience it.  But, through consequence, error, and eventually learning, we should be growing as role players and a community.  Mistakes happen, learning from them is golden.

Also, of course:  change is scary.  I mean, look at poor Netflix.

Players often seem to take being rejected for a role call very personally. Overly personally. Yes, sometimes players are not accepted for these roles because they have poor history in that type of role previously; other times, players are not accepted for other reasons entirely. At some point, if you apply for enough roles, you will get rejected. There is no player who gets every role they apply for. (For one thing, were such an uber-player to exist, they would eventually start getting rejected just because staff wanted to give a chance to someone who hadn't previously had a chance.)

There are a bunch of things players could do to clear up their history with staff, make themselves appear more suitable for sponsored roles, and so on. But that's not the point of this thread. If someone wants to ask the question, "How can I get the sponsored role and/or the karma and/or the special app I want?" in another thread, then both successful players and staff could give advice on that issue. (But if all that's desired is to complain about it, well, that helps no one and won't make for success in the long run.)

I find a lot of comments the staff are making laughable.

My experience with complaints is getting the answer "Too bad."

I try and keep my character wants and my gdb self separate, but the staff seems to think they are linked in my opinion.

This whole new karma system is just a way to placate the players without actually changing a thing. It reminds me of a govt agency I worked for. They choose who they want to hire, but by law they have to post the job public for two weeks and conduct interviews. It's just a sham to show compliance. Just like this new karma system, they have a pretty written policy and "system" to explain to the gullible how they did what they wanted anyway.

GDB behavior is directly related to your account, and what Staff thinks of you. I agree that it shouldn't -- And I certainly try not to connect GDB Nyr with Armageddon Nyr -- But we're human, and I think it's hard to separate the two.

My player complaints have gotten a succinct "We'll look into this". I don't think i've filed a staff complaint, as far as I remember. I'd be worried over getting a 'too bad' and red flagging myself to Staff as someone to watch out for. But, as Staff is making clear, Producers deal with Staff Complaints, so I don't think we need to worry ourselves so much with 'OMG THEY'LL BLACKLIST ME' as much as I initially thought we did. If you have a legitimate complaint, I say file it.

Quote from: Titania on September 19, 2011, 02:57:22 PM
I try and keep my character wants and my gdb self separate, but the staff seems to think they are linked in my opinion.

This whole new karma system is just a way to placate the players without actually changing a thing. It reminds me of a govt agency I worked for. They choose who they want to hire, but by law they have to post the job public for two weeks and conduct interviews. It's just a sham to show compliance. Just like this new karma system, they have a pretty written policy and "system" to explain to the gullible how they did what they wanted anyway.

Not to belabour the point but they are linked.  

Karma is about trust.  Trust that you, as a player (not as a character), will not attempt to do stupid stuff that will cause problems for the game overall or individual plotlines.

If you make an ass of yourself on the GDB then, chances are, you -will- do something ass-like in the game (OR out of the game - OOC metaplaying is rampant after all) while trying to cling to the 'sham' of justifying it via roleplaying.  After all, it's just a sham to show compliance.  Just like how some people use the roleplay system, they have a pretty written explanation about why their 'roleplay' made sense to explain to the gullible how they did what they wanted anyway.

Seriously, karma is nothing more than a trust meter.  You gain trust by doing things that are, well, trustworthy.   It really isn't hard.

Play by the rules and the guidelines and karma will come without hesitation.  Try to bend the rules, try to justify stupid acts (like an elf riding a beetle because he really needed to at the time so it was 'good roleplaying')  with the "I was roleplaying my character' excuse and you won't get karma.

Be a jerk on the GDB and why would anyone want to have you in their clan?  Think about that.  If you see someone on the GDB and you really dislike how they are confrontational, arrogant, mean-spirited, and belligerent, would -you- ignore that and invite them to play in your clan where you would have to deal with them on a daily basis?  If you answer honestly and are a relatively sane human being then you would say no.  

That's why GDB posting is reflected in Karma.  

Don't like it?  Then stop being a dork on the GDB.

Quote from: Titania on September 19, 2011, 02:57:22 PM
I find a lot of comments the staff are making laughable.

My experience with complaints is getting the answer "Too bad."

I try and keep my character wants and my gdb self separate, but the staff seems to think they are linked in my opinion.

Staff must have randomly selected my name from a hat and singled me out for good treatment, then, because I'm not on staff, I don't communicate with staff outside of the request tool, and my experiences with staff have been consistently positive. A quick scan of my GDB history will also reveal that I tend to troll the shit out of this place.

I don't know what you guys are doing that I'm not, or vice versa. Maybe there are bad seeds among staff that I haven't encountered, or maybe some of you players are hard to work with. Probably a bit of both...

Quote from: Titania on September 19, 2011, 02:57:22 PMIt reminds me of a govt agency I worked for.

Perhaps you see these two situations as being alike because your perception is coloured by a negative attitude. I don't know you, so take that with a grain of salt, but I'd consider it if I were in your shoes.

I think that's a gross overstatement, marko. I make an ass out of myself almost daily on the GDB, and I wouldn't say the Staff thinks i'm an untrustworthy player.

Quote from: Reiloth on September 19, 2011, 04:20:20 PM
I think that's a gross overstatement, marko. I make an ass out of myself almost daily on the GDB, and I wouldn't say the Staff thinks i'm an untrustworthy player.

:)

I wouldn't presume to know what the staff, as a whole, would think.  ;)

Everything is a factor.  Posts do reflect the nature of the player and can be an indicator towards email communications or other tendencies.  As such, how one posts has an impact on things like karma.  For some, even if they make themselves out to be an ass daily, they are still loveable and huggable.  Aka, they can pull it off.  Others are just well.. jerks.

Quote from: marko on September 19, 2011, 04:23:18 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on September 19, 2011, 04:20:20 PM
I think that's a gross overstatement, marko. I make an ass out of myself almost daily on the GDB, and I wouldn't say the Staff thinks i'm an untrustworthy player.

:)

I wouldn't presume to know what the staff, as a whole, would think.  ;)

Everything is a factor.  Posts do reflect the nature of the player and can be an indicator towards email communications or other tendencies.  As such, how one posts has an impact on things like karma.  For some, even if they make themselves out to be an ass daily, they are still loveable and huggable.  Aka, they can pull it off.  Others are just well.. jerks.

I definitely agree with you there. I think that a GDB persona can tip the scale one way or the other.

EDIT:
Also -- Along those lines, if you make a post in some thread along the lines of "Man, I hate having Leader PC's and working with Staff, it's such a drag sending in character reports", and then send in a special app for a Leader in a Clan -- I can't see why Staff would want to accept your application. Airing dirty laundry on the GDB, as I have bouts of doing, is also not a great way to make friends with your Heavenly Operators.

As for the govt job, I was the beneficiary via who I knew, but doesn't mean I didn't think it was wrong. I still took the job. So a bit of a hypocrite.

To me role play is role play, and GDB is gdb. If someone cannot distinguish between the two, I don't feel bad that I can. But what is to be expected when you can't really have a discussion on a discussion board with all the rules and gangs of bullies.

That's a bit melodramatic, isn't it? We're having a discussion right now and it isn't impeded by rules or by roving gangs of bullies.

I can distinguish between the GDB and the game, too, but if someone was abrasive or unpleasant on the game boards I can't see why I'd expect them to be any less abrasive or more pleasant in clan-related communications.

Because people act more professional in professional-type settings than they do on anonymous internet forums where rules are pretty lax?

The discussion isn't impeded right now by rules or bullies, but by player fear that their opinions on this matter might be taken the wrong way by some staff member and they won't get their sponsored app because of it.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 19, 2011, 04:52:35 PM
Because people act more professional in professional-type settings than they do on anonymous internet forums where rules are pretty lax?

The discussion isn't impeded right now by rules or bullies, but by player fear that their opinions on this matter might be taken the wrong way by some staff member and they won't get their sponsored app because of it.

Agreed. One's GDB behavior is not indicative of them having bad behaviors in other ways more pertinent to the game itself. It is not indicative of whether or not that person can be trusted either. A person can be a great roleplayer, be decent in their other communications with the staff and other players, never abuse bugs, play leaders, submit things to the game, and still get into arguments on the GDB. Should that take away everything else positive they have done?

Quote from: Reiloth on September 19, 2011, 04:08:40 PM
GDB behavior is directly related to your account, and what Staff thinks of you. I agree that it shouldn't

It isn't always directly related to your account.  Frequent forum trolls, flamers, other breakers-of-forum-rules are noted on their game accounts so we can keep an eye on them (if they retaliate to being banned on the GDB by going on a killing spree in-game, we would like to keep tabs on that).  I can think of a few players that are trusted just fine in the game, but have been banned on the GDB before.

Quote from: jstorrie on September 19, 2011, 04:47:18 PM
I can distinguish between the GDB and the game, too, but if someone was abrasive or unpleasant on the game boards I can't see why I'd expect them to be any less abrasive or more pleasant in clan-related communications.

This comes up sometimes.  If you troll/flame/break rules all up and down the GDB and then show a hint of that sort of attitude to staff, the connection between how you act on the GDB and how you act to staff is easily made and not easily broken.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 19, 2011, 04:52:35 PM
Because people act more professional in professional-type settings than they do on anonymous internet forums where rules are pretty lax?

The discussion isn't impeded right now by rules or bullies, but by player fear that their opinions on this matter might be taken the wrong way by some staff member and they won't get their sponsored app because of it.

Brief bit of clarity here, these are not anonymous internet forums, and there are rules here.  We've explained the staff complaint process pretty well here, too, as well as the forum rules.  Stay inside those lines and you should be good to go!

Quote from: Bacon on September 19, 2011, 05:09:11 PM
Agreed. One's GDB behavior is not indicative of them having bad behaviors in other ways more pertinent to the game itself. It is not indicative of whether or not that person can be trusted either. A person can be a great roleplayer, be decent in their other communications with the staff and other players, never abuse bugs, play leaders, submit things to the game, and still get into arguments on the GDB. Should that take away everything else positive they have done?

I don't think anyone has suggested that staff would do such a thing.  If such a player argued on the GDB, we don't really care.  If they troll, flame, or otherwise break the rules of the GDB, we'd ban their GDB account for 7 days.  Game account:  no action, may note that they are this player on the GDB.  They do it again?  Ban their account on the GDB for 14 days.  Game account:  no action, may note that they have been banned twice for breaking forum rules.  They do it again?  Ban their account on the GDB for a month.  Game account, no action, may note that they have been banned three times for breaking forum rules and are pending a complete ban of their GDB account.  They do it again?  Likely, this means a full ban of their GDB account.  Game account, no action, may note that they have been permanently banned on the GDB for breaking forum rules.

Now, at this point: 

I think that after you get to several bans on the GDB and several warnings from staff, you have shown that at the very least, following this one set of rules (that staff created, at that) isn't important to you.  That assumption on staff's part will likely extend to the game, which has another set of rules and expectations for players.  It may not be a direct link, but it is a link, and there's not really a way around it.  If you want to break that link or prove it wrong, follow the game rules, follow staff suggestions, and we really do encourage you to follow the GDB rules as well.

The term trust comes up over and over again in relation to Karma.  How do we define trust???

Can trust reliably be applied to someone who gets sponsored role after sponsored role yet keeps either getting killed/stored/bored with the role etc. 

Can trust reliably be applied to someone with a high Karma account and who does little to no roleplay or bad roleplay?

Or can trust be applied to someone who plays supporting roles for long periods of time or over a LOOOONG period of time???


Just my $0.02

Quote from: ianmartin on September 20, 2011, 09:17:53 AM
Can trust reliably be applied to someone who gets sponsored role after sponsored role yet keeps either getting killed/stored/bored with the role etc.

This doesn't happen. It doesn't happen because after a player gets one or two sponsored roles and then dies stupidly or stores quickly or simply does a bad job, staff aren't likely to take them on for future sponsored roles; they will be passed over for players who do a better job, or for players who haven't previously had a chance. So there are no players who are "getting killed/stored/bored" and yet are getting "sponsored role after sponsored role." I don't know where you get the idea that this happens, but it's just not true.

Quote from: ianmartin on September 20, 2011, 09:17:53 AM
Can trust reliably be applied to someone with a high Karma account and who does little to no roleplay or bad roleplay?

Another fantasy construction. We don't have 8-karma players who do this.

Quote from: ianmartin on September 20, 2011, 09:17:53 AMOr can trust be applied to someone who plays supporting roles for long periods of time or over a LOOOONG period of time???

Did you actually read the karma criteria? If you did, then you would know the answer is "yes." The karma criteria are pretty clear.

I've done all sorts for Armageddon. I've created player tools (emote emulator, age converter), I've interned as a web admin back in 2002/2003. I've done other stuff I won't discuss. I don't have karma for a mul.

I might not have been active in recent years, but I still see it as the staff having neglected to recognize my brilliance. I don't see how my roleplaying could improve that would warrant me suddenly being trusted to play a sorcerer. I'll likely never get to play one before Arm 2 comes around. I'm okay with that.

I trust their judgment that I do lack something to be trusted to play a sorcerer. Perhaps it's my lack of leadership skills. Regardless I can and do enjoy the game without it and I trust them if they say the game wouldn't be improved by me playing a sorcerer.

That said I've always felt I could speak my mind with the staff without fear of repercussion. I've had Nessalin yell at me, and yet always treat me fairly even after that. I don't always agree with the staff choices (a recent example is my character app got rejected, and yet I can quote a document that says the reason I was given was invalid). Rather then send a longwinded email saying how injust it was, I made a minor modification and moved on. Even if I believe I was in the right, it wasn't important enough to argue over.

After all, it's only a game.

Also MUDs have been dying since I joined. Armageddon has never been so popular.

I use to say no-one ever leaves Arm. They just take extended breaks. It's still true IMO.

I hope this isn't dismissed as mere sucking up.

You know, I have a feeling that if you put in a special app for a sorceror - and said application was relatively compelling - you'd get it.

In fact, I think that the section of the playerbase who could get a mul/sorc/psion via special app is actually rather large.

Cept many of them don't want to play those roles...which actually means you get to stay in karma limbo.

Since even staff admits to giving out or leaving options in place after a special app if done well.

And honestly, I don't think one should have to play those roles, including leadership under the new listing in order to have that "trust".

I mean, at least with the old system, if you have no interest in muls, elkros, drovian, sorc, bender or leader, It might never bother you to be stuck at 4 karma.


But the coming system means you will actually WANT the higher karma level even if you only play human merchants.

Eh, I'm rambling.

Yeah - that all boils down to how under the current system, there's no big difference between having 5 karma or 8 - at 5 you can probably get anything you want via special app already. Under the new system, there's a noticeable difference, because the guy at 8 karma has more points to spend on bumps and such.

I suppose this highlights a challenge for the transition, which is that a number of people who tend to play mundanes or behind-the-scenes-type PCs may have artificially low karma (for the reasons X-D outlined above.) Asking for a karma review seems to be the logical solution.

Quote from: X-D on September 23, 2011, 03:47:46 PM

Since even staff admits to giving out or leaving options in place after a special app if done well.

They did this for me a few years ago. When the staff member that gave it to me left, they took it away and said they would have given me karma instead.  ::)

Quote from: Jingo on September 23, 2011, 07:56:09 PM

Quote from: X-D on September 23, 2011, 03:47:46 PM

Since even staff admits to giving out or leaving options in place after a special app if done well.

They did this for me a few years ago. When the staff member that gave it to me left, they took it away and said they would have given me karma instead.  ::)

I have an option for something that I've never spec app'd before, nor have the karma level for (presuming the 'count' is accurate in my account notes).  It's been there for a long, long time and it's still there so far as I can see.  I did regular app it maybe a year ago, and it was approved without any discussion.  I'm guessing that I'm trusted enough to play that option, but with the new system coming in, that it's just going to disappear, since I don't have the appropriate karma level for it.

Conversely, I don't have the option to play something which I do have the karma for, which I've never app'd or played before.  I don't know whether this is because I'm not trusted to play it, or it was skipped or overlooked (in the old days, I think they used to add options by hand when handing out the karma, or just plain add the options before the karma system).

There's been no mention at all about the above stuff in my account notes, which I've requested a few times over the years.  My guess is that the stuff is so old that newer staff just don't know the reasoning behind it, and without any further notes on my account to reference, have erred on the side of caution and have just left it.

Quote from: jstorrie on September 23, 2011, 03:30:45 PM
You know, I have a feeling that if you put in a special app for a sorceror - and said application was relatively compelling - you'd get it.

In fact, I think that the section of the playerbase who could get a mul/sorc/psion via special app is actually rather large.

In 2005 or 2006 I spec app'd a psionicist when I had 3 karma and it was approved, although he died really fast.  He was a northie mindbender that hated what he was.  I even had powergamey notes on my prior Whiran and the account notes with my approval said "well at least the concept shows that he won't powergame his skills since he hates that he has them - watch him though".  I'm sure I woulda been toasted somehow if I was playing him bad (spamming skills), and I didn't play him bad.  After he died I played a d-elf for a few months.  Then, I spec apped a sorcereress while still having 3 karma and got it.  I think I did a somewhat compelling character concept and was pretty good - got a pretty nifty amount of player kudos while playing her.  She died within a year, I then got a 'nakki templar.  My 'nakki templar was a horrible noble, sucked balls and died within a week or two cause I was too used to the rough and tumble, do-it-yourself commoner/rogue magicker type.

Anyways yeah I had some good luck with spec apps, haven't done any since 2005/2006 though.

I like the original post.  But I'd like to admit that I haven't applied for any karma-restricted/sponsored roles in the recent past and so probably don't have a full grasp on the issue. 

That being said, I feel that having a bit more openness on the part of the staff, and their evaluation criterion, can only help things and I think this is the direction that the staff are going with this. 

One other point -- I feel that it really takes too long to to get karma.  I think that most players should be able to get six points of karma in their first two years reliably.  If it's much longer than that, then we end up with long periods of inactivity where there is no real barometer of trust between player and staff. 

Quote from: jriley on September 27, 2011, 11:40:15 PM
I like the original post.  But I'd like to admit that I haven't applied for any karma-restricted/sponsored roles in the recent past and so probably don't have a full grasp on the issue. 

That being said, I feel that having a bit more openness on the part of the staff, and their evaluation criterion, can only help things and I think this is the direction that the staff are going with this. 

One other point -- I feel that it really takes too long to to get karma.  I think that most players should be able to get six points of karma in their first two years reliably.  If it's much longer than that, then we end up with long periods of inactivity where there is no real barometer of trust between player and staff. 

I'd agree to this point, however, what would/could be a suitable guideline to say, he/she should have enough knowledge to do X role. Even after playing this game on and off for almost two decades I still run into people/places/things that I have never seen/done/investigated before. Still new to me, and is why I haven't really complained once about not having enough karma for a role.
That is not to say I haven't spec aped something and was rejected, because I have, and have also had spec apps approved too. I just try to work with the staff and try not to compromise my concept I am working on to much.

Accountability isn't necessarily the same thing as Communication, and it is communication which builds strong relationships.
I believe the staff (as a whole) have really pushed to make themselves accountable, and for that they should be commended.  What I believe to be the next step (and what many players are actually asking for) is to have more open communication. 

The first thing that popped into my head when reading the new Karma grid was, "Oh, it's a rubric!  Great, rubrics are good for helping to assess subjective material."  (Accountability)

But, it occupied to me reading through some clan docs -- I have no idea where my Clan's Staff stand on clan X.  Cheesy as it may sound there wasn't/isn't any "introduction"  or  "mission statement" which I could read and be like, "Ah, I see that's the direction things are going so I can work with that."  The ability to get everyone on the same page, to feel like everyone is part of the group...

Or, in reports -- I understand Staff are busy people (we all are).  However, there comes a point where silence becomes louder then words.  Where one is left wondering "Are they agreeing?  Are they disagreeing?  Are they simply glancing/ bored as they read?" 

And let's not forget that often times it is said, "we'll we're just reacting to your PC" while in reality the Staff do play a major role in pro-acting...  again leaving one to wonder.
(Communication)

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 30, 2011, 10:49:26 PM
But, it occupied to me reading through some clan docs -- I have no idea where my Clan's Staff stand on clan X.  Cheesy as it may sound there wasn't/isn't any "introduction"  or  "mission statement" which I could read and be like, "Ah, I see that's the direction things are going so I can work with that."  The ability to get everyone on the same page, to feel like everyone is part of the group...

You should ask your clan staff where they stand on a clan, a clan issue, etc.  I don't think each clan needs a mission statement from staff.  Salarr--we pledge to help you be a Salarri.  We will do things other clan staffers do, like approve master crafting requests and item order requests, and check over your character reports.  We expect you to read your documentation and ask us if you have any questions.  I'm not sure how this would be different with any clan.  When you have questions, ask.  We are not able to proactively read your mind to find out that you don't know where your staff stand on an issue.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 30, 2011, 10:49:26 PM
Or, in reports -- I understand Staff are busy people (we all are).  However, there comes a point where silence becomes louder then words.  Where one is left wondering "Are they agreeing?  Are they disagreeing?  Are they simply glancing/ bored as they read?" 

You're left wondering something after a report?  It would be a good idea to include your question in a new report, then.  Again with the "we may be proactive, but we can't read minds."

Quote
And let's not forget that often times it is said, "we'll we're just reacting to your PC" while in reality the Staff do play a major role in pro-acting...  again leaving one to wonder.
(Communication)

I don't know what this means.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 30, 2011, 10:49:26 PM
Or, in reports -- I understand Staff are busy people (we all are).  However, there comes a point where silence becomes louder then words.  Where one is left wondering "Are they agreeing?  Are they disagreeing?  Are they simply glancing/ bored as they read?" 

I can't speak for everyone, but one thing I appreciate more than ANYTHING in reports is when players divide them into IC and OOC sections.

Sometimes, it is difficult to ascertain which bits of a report are coming from the player and which are coming from the character. I've requested people to be more specific about this in the past.

Reading people's reports and bio entries is one of my fave things to do on staff. I read my clannies' reports carefully and I tried to give detailed feedback to them... but I'm human. Sometimes I miss things. It sucks.

If you have important questions about stuff, I recommend NOT doing this:

Quote from: Sample Report
I killed a gemmer and gave the head to Faithful Lady Boom-cha. Kurac's got a bounty on the same guy because he was spotted over Luir's Outpost flying and peeing downwards on several occasions. Gonna try to finagle a way to collect both bounties. Plan on giving the gem and his duds to the Templars but I'll give his head to Kurac because they are taking it pretty personally. <Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah a bunch of other stuff blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah> Anyways, since head objects don't last when you logout, I'm going to have to ask for you to load up a head of the buck-toothed, pimply half-elf for me because I need proof that I killed him. And my character also got up to a bunch of other stuff: he's got an apartment in Allanak now, and he uses it to crush slices of fruit into jam over and over because he's trying to build up a jam collection to impress this Fale aide he wants to bone. Maybe she'll let him eat some off her!

And instead, do this:

Quote from: Sample Report
IC Stuff
I killed a gemmer and gave the head to Faithful Lady Boom-cha. Kurac's got a bounty on the same guy because he was spotted over Luir's Outpost flying and peeing downwards on several occasions. Gonna try to finagle a way to collect both bounties. Plan on giving the gem and his duds to the Templars but I'll give his head to Kurac because they are taking it pretty personally.

He's got an apartment in Allanak now, and he uses it to crush slices of fruit into jam over and over because he's trying to build up a jam collection to impress this Fale aide he wants to bone. Maybe she'll let him eat some off her!

OOC Stuff
Any chance you could load me a head of the buck-toothed, pimply half-elf? I need to give the head to Kurac and I know the head will have disappeared when I log out with it. Thanks!

If something is super important to you the player, I do not want to miss it! But often times, stuff gets buried in the middle of reports and it can be missed. Not that you do this particularly, My 2 Sids, I just wanted it out there as a general suggestion. The more important it is, the less likely we are to miss it if you highlight it somewhere in your report.

This is as good a time as any to go...

Why can't we all just be friends? Staff only wants to brutally murder our characters, it's not like they hate us.

Well maybe Calavera does, but Calavera seems to be hiding it well behind kindness and generosity, which in Zalanthas means look over your shoulder before you get backstabbed.

Aaaaanyways... I think this thread has pretty well run its course. Lock, maybe? Or does anyone else have some input?

Quote from: Saellyn on October 20, 2011, 11:06:45 AM
This is as good a time as any to go...

Why can't we all just be friends? Staff only wants to brutally murder our characters, it's not like they hate us.

Well maybe Calavera does, but Calavera seems to be hiding it well behind kindness and generosity, which in Zalanthas means look over your shoulder before you get backstabbed.

Aaaaanyways... I think this thread has pretty well run its course. Lock, maybe? Or does anyone else have some input?

The topic of player/staff relations will NEVAH be done! At  least I hope not. What good are a whole bunch of yes-men/women gonna do for this place? Nada. 

That said, I can see both sides, don't think the staff recognized my brilliance either (back when I was intravenously connected to Ginka) and have been seen as a pain in the ass by some staff and players alike.  I don't think I've ever trolled since I don't know what trolling is but I may be wrong.

One thing I've never done is special app'd for either advertised special roles or concepts I really wanted to play because of how much trouble I seemed to get into back when I was really active. I'll always regret that because maybe I should have tried. Maybe someone would have taken a chance on ME and helped me create a great, memorable character.   I can't tell you how many templar positions I wanted to apply for that I didn't because of fear.

As a player in a game entrusted to the Staff it's imperative to have a good working relationship with that staff imho in order for you to grow as a player and enrich the game which is the ultimate reason to play, isn't it?  I'm not saying you have to invite them over for dinner and send Christmas cards but the rules are in place to make it as fair and enjoyable as possible for ALL players.  Players and staff should be allowed to express their opinions openly keeping in mind that priviledge and "advancement" (i.e. increased karma) on Armageddon come as a result of a trust that is earned by the observation and interaction with said staff. We're being judged on our actions and/or lack thereof.  You can't bitch about the karma you're not getting when you're not trying your best to get it. 

In closing, if you're not getting the karma you think you deserve, my suggestion would be to apply for a special role that's either advertised or of your own design. Don't let a rejection stop you from trying again and again until you get it. Sometimes it's gonna take tenacity to get what you want and maybe, if you're entrusted and given that chance, you open the door to change and the appreciation you wish you had gotten.

Quote from: Saellyn on October 20, 2011, 11:06:45 AM
This is as good a time as any to go...

Why can't we all just be friends? Staff only wants to brutally murder our characters, it's not like they hate us.

Well maybe Calavera does, but Calavera seems to be hiding it well behind kindness and generosity, which in Zalanthas means look over your shoulder before you get backstabbed.

Aaaaanyways... I think this thread has pretty well run its course. Lock, maybe? Or does anyone else have some input?

Please don't resurrect topics just to see your name in the discussion.  If you have nothing to add but "this hasn't been discussed in a while, we should lock the thread," your point is both true and unnecessary.  Nothing bad is going to happen if a thread has run its course.  There's no underlying need to lock threads that have not had comments in x amount of time.

I'm sorry, sometimes I don't see a topic for while and have something to say.

I can see both sides of the coin here.

About the karma issue - for me it's a wait and see sort've thing, but I've never really had much faith in the karma system as a whole, so I'm not getting my hopes up.

As for the Player/staff faith issues - I've had some bad encounters and I've had some awesome encounters.  I've had karma removed because a staff wrongfully accused me of some OOCness, then I had it returned after it was cleared up.  Then I had it and a couple more removed not long after that because the same staffer that removed and returned it before felt that I didn't play something out ICly that -was- an IC reaction from my PC based on knowledge of the game world my PC and I -didn't- know about until the staffer told me I've been around long enough and should've known about it.  Which was one part of the removal that I felt was unfair and it did affect my want to play, and has affected it still even though it was a couple years back.  There was another reason to the removal that I haven't argued, and even agreed on.  Did I feel like that particular staffer was being unfair towards me?  Yes.  Did I send up a staff complaint?  No.  Why?  Well, because I felt it would've been pointless to argue with that particular staffer and/or any other one.  I will admit, part of the reason why I didn't send in a complaint was also do in part to my opinion that staff might favor... well other staff members.  Is that issue still unresolved?  Yes, atleast for me it is.  I still feel the situation was handled unfairly, with the previous encounter with that particular staffer influencing their decisions on something entirely different.  I'm not saying that I'm a saint and that I haven't made mistakes, but I'd like to think that I have improved leaps and bounds since then - though my karma still sits where it did years ago after having it removed.  So I tend to play roles that keep to themselves with little to no staff interaction.  (Quite probably, more likely even, why that's the case.)

But like I said, I've also had some awesome interaction with staff, in an IC fashion and OOC as well.  Recent responses from staff to character reports have improved my outlook, and actually made me all the more inclined to delve that much further into my characters mindset and even prompted me to start some plots moving along.  It's even made me think about finally using that bio tool, which I have still yet to do because I'm lazy (that and I always start writing it up, only to criticize my writing and have a debate with myself that it's not done right and then I eventually say fuck it and delete it all.).

Quote from: Attana on October 26, 2011, 08:53:40 AMI'm not saying that I'm a saint and that I haven't made mistakes, but I'd like to think that I have improved leaps and bounds since then - though my karma still sits where it did years ago after having it removed.

No account notes requests in 3 years will tend to put you below the radar.  You placed no staff complaint about the incident in question, but I am familiar with it, and your report here is inaccurate.  One staffer did indeed remove karma for an OOC incident and it was granted back.  Another (separate) staffer removed karma for an unrelated incident.  Having your facts straight is important--no one staffer was being vindictive here (you can check your e-mail history to confirm this).  I see here that you disagree with the reasoning for the karma docking for 2 points.  You should have put in a staff complaint about it (and still could, if you'd like).  We have made an effort since then to put staff expectations for certain roles and situations in helpfiles (see help wish).

Regardless, if you wish to have your karma reviewed but don't play in roles that report to staff on a regular basis, you should put in an account notes request (see help karma) to have it reviewed based on the karma guidelines we have now.

Nyr,  do you realize you may not be helping matters on this issue?

People ask questions/ start new threads and staff say "oh, it's been covered in this past thread"   Then folks add to old threads and now you're accusing folks of rehashing and saying they shouldn't look at old threads.

Further, folks are trying very hard to give their experiences, their opinions  and instead of taking the time to maybe email them or give your experience... you're immediately coming back with "We'll I'm staff, I know more than you, you're wrong"


This whole thing with Karma seems to "is this a way to give feedback" or is it a "test" to see which players are more worthy of Staff interaction.

I like Nyr-bashing as much as the next red-blooded American, but I didn't feel like he was being mean in his reply there.

Seemed like he just said that she hasn't gotten any karma because she hasn't requested her account notes in 3 years, and that's typically when staff do a karma review. Then he cleared up some details she apparently got wrong, and offered her a way to go back and check for herself to verify the mistake.

*shrug*

I butt heads with Nyr all the time, but fair's fair. He seemed pretty reasonable there.

>_>
<_<

... although it is kinda funny ... because this one time ... I corrected an error Nyr made in his facts on an issue ... and he called my correction frivolous.

Quote from: My 2 sids on October 26, 2011, 09:31:40 AM
Nyr,  do you realize you may not be helping matters on this issue?

People ask questions/ start new threads and staff say "oh, it's been covered in this past thread"   Then folks add to old threads and now you're accusing folks of rehashing and saying they shouldn't look at old threads.

Further, folks are trying very hard to give their experiences, their opinions  and instead of taking the time to maybe email them or give your experience... you're immediately coming back with "We'll I'm staff, I know more than you, you're wrong"


This whole thing with Karma seems to "is this a way to give feedback" or is it a "test" to see which players are more worthy of Staff interaction.

That really wasn't a snarky response.  He was just letting her know how to help herself, and perhaps clearing up some points she'd misremembered because it was a couple of years ago, details that could definitely have affected her level of butthurt and that it might've helped to get fixed.  Public responses to experiences and opinions people themselves make public are also reasonable in my book.

Also, further back in the thread someone posted a couple randomish comments and then asked to have the thread locked.  I don't see anything wrong with pointing out that it's unnecessary to bump a thread on a pretext and then ask to have it locked.

So, who exactly isn't helping matters?  I'm failing to see the unreasonable or unhelpful there.  The world may now end because I have agreed with Musashi in both form and substance...  ::)

Nyr really needs to start using smileys or something.   ;)

Huh, And here I was thinking Nyr's post was friendly and helpful.

Still sucks that getting a review has been, for the most part, only possible with an account notes request.

Some of us don't want to see our account notes, Mostly so we can stay friendly with staff. My one and only time asking for them, more then 10 years ago left me with a rather bad view of staff, full of errors, out of context observations and other things. Since then I know more things have been added that are as bad or worse and I know that seeing them would at the very least leave a bad taste in my mouth. Oh yes, I know, now days the staff answer is "Send reports, help us get the context right...yadda yadda." My answer being, If you did not see the entire scene don't make the note, good or bad.

Happily it has been stated that you can simply ask for a karma review without asking for account notes.

And I am really trying to believe they are in an ongoing mission to improve these issues.

My response was neither snarky nor bashing.  The fact folks are obviously so touchy shows how hot this issue still is.
:o

Text as a mode of communication is good, but not perfect.

Quote from: My 2 sids on October 26, 2011, 09:31:40 AM
People ask questions/ start new threads and staff say "oh, it's been covered in this past thread"   Then folks add to old threads and now you're accusing folks of rehashing and saying they shouldn't look at old threads.

I assume you are referring to the post I made earlier here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41936.msg640642.html#msg640642).  I stand by that; there's no point in bumping a topic just to say it needs to be locked.  I have no idea what else you are referring to as it is nonspecific.

Quote
Further, folks are trying very hard to give their experiences, their opinions  and instead of taking the time to maybe email them or give your experience... you're immediately coming back with "We'll I'm staff, I know more than you, you're wrong"

If a player uses the GDB to vent, that's fine.  However, the proper mode of discussing an issue about a problem with staff is (as has been mentioned before) via the request tool.  Furthermore, if a player uses the GDB to vent but doesn't have the facts correct about portions of their venting, it's a good thing to correct them.  If you think we should e-mail such players, well, we think they should send in a request rather than make it public.  If they want to post details about their account history publicly, it is only fair that we clarify publicly.  That has historically been how we have handled this.

Quote
This whole thing with Karma seems to "is this a way to give feedback" or is it a "test" to see which players are more worthy of Staff interaction.

I have no idea what you mean here.  Staff interaction largely comes through the request tool and animations.  We are not handling 8 karma players and 0 karma players with different guidelines with regard to our interaction with them. 

If you mean that the above two positions are the two questions you're asking yourself about karma, then wonder no longer and read the helpfile on karma:

Karma                                                              (Account)

   ArmageddonMUD operates a Karma system designed to open up the more
complicated, powerful and RP challenging roles to players. Karma is simply
a measure of trust that the staff members have in a given player's:

    - Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced
      by playing roles realistically and acting responsibly with the code.
    - Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which
      the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.
    - Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to
      show that they are really involved in the game world, and also
      enriching the game world for other players.

   Staff base their decisions to award karma on a set of categories. Each
category has a list of criteria which players need to meet in order to gain
a karma point. No more than two karma points can be awarded in any one
category area and the longevity category is limited to one karma point
only.

Categories:
   - Longevity
   - Good communication
   - Ability to roleplay
   - Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
   - Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
   - Contributes to the game
   - Leadership

   Players may request their account notes once every six months. An
Account Notes request will automatically have staff assessing your
karma at their own discretion outside of Account Notes requests.

Karma is not an end in itself. Acquiring karma points is not something
you should be 'striving towards' as a player; the fun that you get out of
role-playing your character should be the primary reward in itself. Most
players will find that they do not progress past the three or four karma
point range.

    Karma is a totally out of character (OOC) concept, and should have no
bearing whatsoever on what happens in the game.

    Part of the function of karma is to make life easier for the staff
members; those players who over time have demonstrated desirable qualities
will 'automatically' gain access to privileged races and guilds. Gaining
karma is not, however, the only way to do this. If you feel that you have
a case to make about why you should be allowed to play a race or guild that
you do not have karma for you may submit a special application through the
request tool. See 'help special applications' for more information.

See Also:
   Karma Options, Roleplaying, Staff Communication, Special Applications

Now, you may think it's about something else, but we did put a lot of effort into figuring it out--this is what our position is on karma.

Quote from: My 2 sids on October 26, 2011, 10:22:28 AM
My response was neither snarky nor bashing.  The fact folks are obviously so touchy shows how hot this issue still is.
:o

I don't think the issue is hot, I just think you could stand to clarify your statements.  If you aren't specific, a lot can be read into text posted.

Fine, Nyr you win.  You always win.  Okay?

All I was trying to say was that in an open discussion folks are encouraged to speak, not "I'm going to rip apart every detail you post"

Staff should get a public relations rep to take care of their public rep.

Quote from: EldritchOrigins on October 26, 2011, 12:22:18 PM
Staff should get a public relations rep to take care of their public rep.

The answer to dealing with players that won't/can't be satisfied by anything a staff member does != provide yet another staffer with yet another thankless job.

You're definitely encouraged to speak, but when the same points keep coming up, I have to question whether the logic of bumping a dormant thread to ask that it be locked is actually correct.

The things that keep coming up: 

Anecdotes about player situations that are either partially relevant, partially correct, baseless (in terms of facts), etc.  At the same time, there tends to be little desire on those same player's parts to actually try to address the issue now.  Perhaps they don't want to.  Well, that's fine, but to be frank, we aren't going to fix stuff without knowing that you feel it needs to be fixed, so you have to communicate to us.

Anecdotes about how a player doesn't trust staff, how x staffer in the past screwed them over, how staff have a vendetta against them, how staff just hate them, always win arguments, etc. Well, could be true, may be true, may not be true, but often enough, it's just one side of the story.  We have guidelines for staff to follow (and have for quite some time).  Either you trust that we have the best interests of the game at heart or you don't.  You're going to have to live with that and follow proper channels to bring it up and have it addressed.  If you bring something up in a staff complaint and you get a response from a producer that disagrees with your position, it's time to move on and stop harping on it.  We aren't going to bend over backwards to help out players that don't want to be helped and think we're a bunch of corrupt assholes just out to screw over the general playerbase.

For the final time on this particular thread:

If you have a problem with how staff have dealt with you, put in a staff complaint.  This goes to producers.  Yes, other staffers can make notes on them, but they can't send replies to you.  It can only be replied to/resolved by a producer.  There are three producers.

If you want a karma review, put in an account notes request.

Now--today?  This is a good day to lock this thread, because it has devolved into arguments about stuff that have already been covered, and it is honestly getting silly.

My 2 sids -- put in a staff complaint about me.  Put your money where your mouth is.  Do you think I'm lying when I say that it goes to producers and I can't do anything about it?  I can't do anything to a staff complaint or an account notes request except add a note to it (which won't go to you).

Attana -- put in a staff complaint about your past issue.  If not that, at least an account notes request so that your karma can be reviewed and some pointers offered (if applicable/if any/etc).

If you want a karma review and don't want to see your notes, submit an account notes request, but indicate you just want a karma review and don't want to see your detailed notes.  We will remove them, and just summarize why we made the adjustment (if any) we did.

Just a fair warning, this may mean we just say 'No karma adjustment at this time'.