I'm trying to wrap my head around something that seems to be weirdly missing: religion! (Yes, it's one of THOSE posts!)
Particularly in Allanak, there's a lot of elements that suggest some sort of religion should exist, but it's not very clear what beliefs characters might have. For example, most seem to believe in elemental personifications -- Vivadu, Krath, etc -- which can be taken as actual gods or just a really fancy way of saying "water and fire." Then there's also the Dragon, who has set himself up as a God-King and demands blind allegience/loyalty from all his subjects (under punishment of horrible Templary things). Throw in magickers, and now you've got a lot of crossed wires. And since I know it's going to come up, saying that "The world is too harsh to think about that!" is just a cop-out, since despite all the bad juju in Zalanthas, our characters seem to have a longer natural lifespan than most people in the Dark Ages (well, the obedient sheep do, anyway).
So, here are my queestions:
1.) Does Tektolnes out-rank the elemental spiritual gods? Is he viewed as having more actual power than they do?
2.) Are Krath/Vivadu/etc. viewed as outcast gods? Is there some accepted explanation for magickers concerning them, and why it's "okay" to demonize them or, for Allanak, enslave them?
3.) What in the world do Tulukis think of all this? Do they have their own god-king, or do they think Allanakis are just $%*#@ idiots?
4.) Is there any group (including desert elves) that are viewed as fanatical?
http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickfaq.html
Excerpt #1 - In short: a magicker does not worship their element, but controls it or allows it to work through him or her.
Excerpt #2 - Because there are no religions on Zalanthas: the sorcerer kings are swift to stamp out any attempt at such.
Essentially the closest thing to a religion that exists, in my opinion, is Tuluki Citizens relationship with Chosen / Faithful / Sun King.
1) Tek/Muk are "God"-kings. Take that as you will, but know that there are daily devotions in Nak to worship Tektolnes like the god he claims to be.
2) Find out IC.
3) Tuluk believes in Muk-Utep, the Sun King. There is documentation of him somewhere, go find it.
4) Yes. Find out IC.
For the most part, in Tuluk people worship the Sun King because of his power, and because they 'love' him. In Allanak, conversely, people worship Tek because if they don't, Tek will do horrible things to them and their families.
You would never hear someone in Tuluk saying "By Muk's balls", but Tek's Balls is a common slang in Allanak.
As far as religion, as we know it in real life, there isn't one. The ones you worship are actual, physical beings. People have been in the presence of the Sun King before, and felt His Power. If one chooses to worship their respective Sun King, I'm sure the Templarate wouldn't exactly stamp it out, but what better way to worship than to join the respective city militias, or be an Aide to one of their most trusted Servants?
Otherwise, a lot of "What does <x> group believe" is very much a "Find out in game" answer, if only because the path of finding the answer will be more fun than just knowing the answer itself.
Quote from: Erisine on June 14, 2011, 05:06:23 PM1.) Does Tektolnes out-rank the elemental spiritual gods? Is he viewed as having more actual power than they do?
They're not really viewed as the same class of being. See answer below.
Quote2.) Are Krath/Vivadu/etc. viewed as outcast gods? Is there some accepted explanation for magickers concerning them, and why it's "okay" to demonize them or, for Allanak, enslave them?
They're really not quite "gods". More like quasi-personified forces of nature/reality.
There's no (widely available) mythic narrative that would make them "outcast" in any way, nor is there much concept of heaven or any other over-arcing mystical realm that they may have previously inhabited.
As for how magickers view them... well, it varies and you should find out IC.
Quote3.) What in the world do Tulukis think of all this? Do they have their own god-king, or do they think Allanakis are just $%*#@ idiots?
Muk Utep is held in similar regard as Tektolnes, as the city's god-king. You have to get the Judeo-Christian concept of monotheistic religion out of your head. Just because you don't worship the other guy's god, doesn't mean that you don't believe he exists or that he has significant power.
Quote4.) Is there any group (including desert elves) that are viewed as fanatical?
Sure.
EDIT: Holy crap, post #7000. ;D
This has been a widely discussed topic with many current threads on it. I would suggest that the OP search the GDB for those.
Here is one:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,23908.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,23908.0.html)
Hypothetically, would it be acceptable RP to have a magicker who, through naivety or whatever, grows to worship their elemental "personification" as a fully-fledged deity? Even to have underground cults forming around them? Would this even be sociologically likely, given that there's no proper archetype of a monolithic religion in Zalanthas? I'm probably a long way from having the karma to play a 'gicker, but I lately find myself idly constructing pipe-dream PCs when my brain has some off time.
Quote from: Cleis on June 14, 2011, 06:07:07 PM
Hypothetically, would it be acceptable RP to have a magicker who, through naivety or whatever, grows to worship their elemental "personification" as a fully-fledged deity?
Sure, as well as the personification of other aspects of the magick system.
QuoteEven to have underground cults forming around them?
It's happened before. Find out IC. Be aware, claiming you worship any entity whatsoever, aside from your friendly neighborhood God-King, isn't going to end well in either city-state.
Any underground cultist who goes around saying "omw you guys, you guys, check it out you guys, I am
so into Whira right now" deserves everything they get, in my book. I get your point though; it'd have to be very, very underground. Like, two very similar first rules underground.
Quote from: number13 on June 14, 2011, 06:14:06 PMSure, as well as the personification of other aspects of the magick system.
Other aspects? Something in the documentation I've missed, or is that another thing to find out?
Quote from: Cleis on June 14, 2011, 06:07:07 PM
Hypothetically, would it be acceptable RP to have a magicker who, through naivety or whatever, grows to worship their elemental "personification" as a fully-fledged deity? Even to have underground cults forming around them? Would this even be sociologically likely, given that there's no proper archetype of a monolithic religion in Zalanthas? I'm probably a long way from having the karma to play a 'gicker, but I lately find myself idly constructing pipe-dream PCs when my brain has some off time.
This has happened before and I'm sure will happen again.
Quote from: Cleis on June 14, 2011, 06:27:02 PM
Quote from: number13 on June 14, 2011, 06:14:06 PMSure, as well as the personification of other aspects of the magick system.
Other aspects? Something in the documentation I've missed, or is that another thing to find out?
help magick_sphere
help magick_mood
Most non-magickers and even some magickers would likely have NO idea these things exist.
I've always wondered if staff would allow a PC family of cultists
Discuss (Communication)
This command enables your character to interact with some npcs as well. To determine whether or not an npc has information to give you, try 'discuss <npc> hi' or 'discuss <npc> topics'.
Syntax:
discuss <name> <keyword>
Examples:
> discuss bartender rumors
> discuss shopkeeper name
> discuss guard hi
Note:
To talk at a table, use the 'talk' command.
When the NPC replies, you will be the only person in the room who can
hear what they say.
See also:
look, rumors, talk, tell
Use this, and the common knowledge that there are several types of people who would be able to answer these questions, to answer these questions. This is a really underused command, IMHO.
You can also learn a lot from just asking a PC elementalist or templar, though there may be repercussions (especially with the latter).
The best thing to remember is Tektolnes, in this case, is the Highlord. This seems to be a melding of the OOC concepts of "God" and "King" (thus the term God-King), but it isn't one or the other necessarily. "Highlord" really does appear to be its own concept. It's been revealed through documentation/etc. that Tektolnes is basically just a Sorcerer. Anything that he may (or may not) be other than that needs to be discovered IC. Also remember your PC most likely wouldn't consider Tektolnes a sorcerer.
Same goes for the elements. Krath may be the sun itself, the drawn symbol for Krath (which is the sun), a place, a person, simply a name for fire, or energy, or any, all, or none of these things. You aren't explicitly told, so you probably wouldn't "know" anything other than most people call the sun "Krath."
So, it should become pretty clear that the questions you're asking may not really make sense to ask ICly. Just be happy knowing that it is possible to learn about the "concepts" you're asking about IC -- just try not to let your real world concepts drift into it.
Most of these comments pertain to the city-states, only.
Them desert folk be doin' their own kinda hoo-doo.
This is an opinion and a guess. I do not speak from specific knowledge and may be wrong!!!
Quote from: Erisine on June 14, 2011, 05:06:23 PM
I'm trying to wrap my head around something that seems to be weirdly missing: religion! (Yes, it's one of THOSE posts!)
1.) Does Tektolnes out-rank the elemental spiritual gods? Is he viewed as having more actual power than they do?
Krath doesn't give a shit and Tek is watching.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 14, 2011, 06:54:40 PM
Most of these comments pertain to the city-states, only.
Them desert folk be doin' their own kinda hoo-doo.
Truth. If you play in those groups though, you get docs ta read.
One quibble with the original post - Tek may have a steel dragon statue, but he doesn't claim to be THE Dragon. That's a separate character.
Quote from: jstorrie on June 14, 2011, 07:20:46 PM
One quibble with the original post - Tek may have a steel dragon statue, but he doesn't claim to be THE Dragon. That's a separate character.
he who saved us, the dragon, tektolnes?
The average Zalanthan probably associates the phrase 'the Dragon' with Tektolnes. There may be more complexity to it.
The Dragon, Tektolnes and otherwise, shouldn't get confused with the Dragon of Tyr from Dark Sun.
Quote from: Nyr on June 14, 2011, 07:29:41 PM
Quote from: jstorrie on June 14, 2011, 07:20:46 PM
One quibble with the original post - Tek may have a steel dragon statue, but he doesn't claim to be THE Dragon. That's a separate character.
he who saved us, the dragon, tektolnes?
Yeah, I thought that was fairly common knowledge. I don't know exactly what all is known or how it all relates, but my guess would be that people know Tek has the power to turn into a dragon. Then there is THE big bad dragon that makes is occasional appearance in the known world, causing death and destruction, which yes, is a different character.
I believe THE dragon had or has its worshipers... and Tektolnes has his worshipers - his ability to change into dragon form probably has some effect on these things.
Quote from: Ocotillo on June 14, 2011, 07:34:04 PM
The average Zalanthan probably associates the phrase 'the Dragon' with Tektolnes. There may be more complexity to it.
The Dragon, Tektolnes and otherwise, shouldn't get confused with the Dragon of Tyr from Dark Sun.
And the confusion begins! Hehe.
Please note that I, and likely many others, have not read Dark Sun. I really don't intend to myself -- while I like to read, it really doesn't call out to me. So that in mind, I would have no way to conceive that there are other characters, especially if they are only mentioned in the books (and I assume, Armageddon is not actually canon).
I too figured that "The Dragon" and Tektolnes were one and the same. There are WAY too many common game references to suggest otherwise -- for example, his armies/militia are even CALLED "The Arm of the Dragon". (Right?) If there is another dragon character that is considered an active part of the game-world universe, why are there not more public lore stories about it, that would distinguish it from Tektolnes?
My question was prompted because of magic's presence in the game. It's this big, scary, unexplainable thing, with unimaginable potential (especially for your average commoner) and most common characters more or less react to it in a, "Oh. That." sort of way. They clearly identify it with a spiritual...embodiment... and give it a name, but it's not even approached as a kind of power. Are you telling me that nowhere out there in those deserts is some chump going, "wtf? That Ruk can move boulders! Why can't I!?!?"
I personally would LOVE to roleplay a character that was a part of an underground cult, and I could really dig the whole idea of having to learn to use influence and misdirection to gain power, while all the while keeping its "real intentions" secret. Come on, that just sounds sexy. What I don't want, though, is having all the work in creating something like that, writing "lore" my character might come up with, etc. etc., just to have it flushed down the toilet by a PLAYER who has decided I'm doing it wrong and that I'm playing a character that is inappropriate for the game theme. That would suck.
Quote from: Erisine on June 14, 2011, 08:23:48 PM
And the confusion begins! Hehe.
I too figured that "The Dragon" and Tektolnes were one and the same. There are WAY too many common game references to suggest otherwise -- for example, his armies/militia are even CALLED "The Arm of the Dragon". (Right?) If there is another dragon character that is considered an active part of the game-world universe, why are there not more public lore stories about it, that would distinguish it from Tektolnes?
"THE" Dragon is a nearly mythological creature. Tektolnes is REAL; people may not SEE him, but they know he's there, and in Allanak they interact with his servants daily.
I wonder if there is a reason that Tektolnes decided to name so many things in such a way that they would be confused with myth.
QuoteWhat I don't want, though, is having all the work in creating something like that, writing "lore" my character might come up with, etc. etc., just to have it flushed down the toilet by a PLAYER who has decided I'm doing it wrong and that I'm playing a character that is inappropriate for the game theme. That would suck.
I wouldn't worry about that, so long as you aren't interjecting proper nouns from real world mythology and are in-line with the game world. I've heard some ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT (!!!) Zalanthan myths from various tribals in-game. No one would be troubled by that sort of thing on an OOC level.
But on an IC level, please expect resistance. If a Templar throws you in a spiky pit because you decided to start a cult, he's doing his job, not declaring your character 'inappropriate for the game theme.'
Some places where a Dragon is mentioned in the History of Zalanthas... http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/timeline.cgi
Quote
-???
The Dragon arrives at Gol Krathu and quickly seizes power. There is little resistance. Some accounts indicate that the lands were given over to the Dragon in a dark pact of betrayal. Servants of the Dragon roam the earth, crushing all opposition.
-???
The Dragon rules the Known World for four hundred years. Most life, poisoned by the Dragon's magick, spread black plagues among the populations. Elves, dwarves, and men scatter to the furthest reaches of the realm to avoid the terrible Dragon, his dread servants, and the killing plagues which accompanied them.
-???
The Dragon, for reasons unknown, departs the Known World. The empire of the Dragon, unable to function, crumbles within five years.
This, above, would be THE dragon folks are talking about.
Then this happens later...
Quote
-1395
Exactly one year after the beginning of the siege of Allanak, Tektolnes reappears in the guise of a dragon and breathes death upon the sieging army - the army ceases to exist. Over the course of the next few years, a temple is built near the entrance of the city, in which the newly formed white-robe templarate preach the worship of He Who Rescued Us, the Mighty Dragon Tektolnes.
The first time Tek appears "in the guise of a dragon"... after being mysteriously absent for some period of time. After this, all the stuff referring to him as a dragon is formed or built in Nak, I believe.
Quote from: Erisine on June 14, 2011, 08:23:48 PM
My question was prompted because of magic's presence in the game. It's this big, scary, unexplainable thing, with unimaginable potential (especially for your average commoner) and most common characters more or less react to it in a, "Oh. That." sort of way. They clearly identify it with a spiritual...embodiment... and give it a name, but it's not even approached as a kind of power. Are you telling me that nowhere out there in those deserts is some chump going, "wtf? That Ruk can move boulders! Why can't I!?!?"
There are very diverse attitudes to magic, but it's hard to see that from inside Allanak. Some of the tribes, for instance, consider magic-users to speak with spirits or ancestors, people to be revered. Tuluk takes it in the other direction, and considers magic an abominable perversion of the natural order of things, and magic-users unclean beings to be despised and killed. That's just for starters.
There's many subtle gradations beyond that. You'll discover wide-ranging attitudes if you investigate. Remember that the theme is centered around cities which intentionally stifle exploration, mystery, and power of which they do not approve. Things may not always have been so.
Polymorph into dragon.
There's plenty of religion in Zalanthas. It's just very obscure as far as what the general city-state citizen would comprehend, and would likely observe it as a bunch of hogwash.
Play a religious devotee of Muk Utep or Tektolnes and see what kind of reaction you get, especially in Luir's or Red Storm.
ON THE MIGHTY DRAGON TEKTOLNES:
1395
Exactly one year after the beginning of the siege of Allanak, Tektolnes reappears in the guise of a dragon and breathes death upon the sieging army - the army ceases to exist. Over the course of the next few years, a temple is built near the entrance of the city, in which the newly formed white-robe templarate preach the worship of He Who Rescued Us, the Mighty Dragon Tektolnes.
ON THE BANISGMENT OF MAGICK IN TULUK:
1441
A fire of questionable origin starts in the scrub plains south of Tuluk and almost destroys the city. Isar, High Templar of Tuluk, uses powerful magick to stop the fire, however. The fire leaves a wide path of scorched earth leading south away from the city.
1445
After a miserably failed coup, Precentor Kul is banished from Tuluk by Precentor Isar.
1450
A terrifying and presumably magickal cataclysm strikes the city-state of Tuluk, leaving it to be nothing more than a pile of rubble and ruins. Over seventy thousand people are killed that day in what has since come to be known as the Fall of Tuluk. During the chaos, Precentor Kul manages to overthrow Precentor Isar and gains control over what little remains.
*This is the start of the ban and fear of magick in Tuluk.
ON MAGICK AND SPIRITUALITY:
A thought to keep in mind when working with elementalists is that they're not priests. Or philosophers. Or druids. Or seers. Or Wizards. They do not get their powers by prayer, worship, communing with a greater power, or studying ancient texts. Many of them make no effort whatsoever to nurture their power and never sought it out to begin with. They were born this way and that's that. Some elementalists doubtless view their powers as a curse, but have taken up the life of an elementalist because there's no escaping what they are.
This should be viewed as academies or centers of magickal learning - not religious institutions.
In answer to "Are you telling me that nowhere out there in those deserts is some chump going, "wtf? That Ruk can move boulders! Why can't I!?!?"
Elementalists are born with their power, although the age at which it manifests varies from person to person. Elementalism cannot be learned. If a person has elemental powers they can be enhanced by studying another of like endowment, but a person with no powers cannot learn a thing. It is frustration with this limitation and jealousy of others that causes some to seek out the powers of sorcery.
I would love to see the occasional underground cult pop up here and there in the city-states. As well as the occasional 'servants of tek/utep' secret societies.
I think we're talking about elementalists worshiping their element because they are crazy or deluded or obsessed, not drawing power from a worshiped element D&D cleric style, which is what the docs are against.
Quote from: Potaje on June 15, 2011, 11:12:06 AM
In answer to "Are you telling me that nowhere out there in those deserts is some chump going, "wtf? That Ruk can move boulders! Why can't I!?!?"
And this is also seen as a curse... why would I want to move boulders when I will be cursed in some awful way for the rest of my life? Coming in contact with a magicker or being a magicker could cause like pretty much any bad thing that could possibly happen.
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickfaq.html#hate"
The general populace does not know what a magicker is and isn't capable of, and assumes the worst. Magickers are blamed for disease, bad luck, and any other negative occurence.
As far as I know, this hasn't changed... although some tribes have always had a different view of magick, as someone mentioned.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 15, 2011, 11:18:36 AM
I think we're talking about elementalists worshiping their element because they are crazy or deluded or obsessed, not drawing power from a worshiped element D&D cleric style, which is what the docs are against.
Alright, My thought on this specific is that even though there are temples, as is said they are academia, would not see many Radicals with in the community last long enough to develop a cult. This would be put down rather quickly by the Templaret since it would promote an open divergence from the established order of things. Cults tend towards that.
Also, though there are crazy, deluded and obsessive people in all walks of life, that would be deemed rare and in many cases would or might be looked down on, despised and or culled or ostrosized by other gemmed that on the whole are trying to come to terms with something foreign to them and a disruption to their previously normal way of life.
Now I do believe that in certain tribal settings that this, worship in a spiritual manner, would be more prevalent and even hold a certain place of revere in those societies. Controlled or looked upon by the elders with a different stigma.
This is not to say some crazy gemmer wouldn't run off to the rinth to try and start a cult, or that one couldn't or shouldn't develop a personal divinity or worship to an element. But in most cases it would take years of trying to simply understand WTF is going on with them and how can they control it if it can even be controlled. So keeping that in mind, it would really be hard pressed to one day wake up, puke out water from your mouth, ear hole and then suddenly go from commoner pot maker to holy devote Viv the acolyte.
Quote from: Potaje on June 15, 2011, 12:44:06 PM
This is not to say some crazy gemmer wouldn't run off to the rinth to try and start a cult, or that one couldn't or shouldn't develop a personal divinity or worship to an element. But in most cases it would take years of trying to simply understand WTF is going on with them and how can they control it if it can even be controlled. So keeping that in mind, it would really be hard pressed to one day wake up, puke out water from your mouth, ear hole and then suddenly go from commoner pot maker to holy devote Viv the acolyte.
When I brought the idea up, I was thinking along the lines of a newly-manifested elemental who, in the face of the sheer magnitude of what's happening to her, has a mini (or not mini) breakdown, makes some crap up as a coping mechanism or whatever other way of reaching the conclusion that this must be some divine stuff going down. I was wondering if there was a reason why she wouldn't fall back on the (IRL) tried-n-tested way of explaining the apparently inexplicable: religion.
I agree with you that this would have to happen in the absence of an established magicker institution/sub-culture, so it's highly unlikely that a 'Nakki gemmer would do this. Everyone around him is saying "yeah, it's this and you're an abomination but a useful one so you can hang", he has an explanation for his situation.
I think it could be possible, though, and correct me if I'm wrong on the cultural evaluation, that a Tuluki (for example) who manifests
might (after a period of "why me"ing and "oh no I'm gross"ing) start to rationalise their "affliction" with their instinctive self-preservation by seeing themselves as the Chosen One of some ancient elemental god. I think this would be an interesting role to play out, if a likely short-lived one, if this cult-of-one decides to go evangelical.
Quote from: Cleis on June 15, 2011, 04:32:52 PM
When I brought the idea up, I was thinking along the lines of a newly-manifested elemental who, in the face of the sheer magnitude of what's happening to her, has a mini (or not mini) breakdown, makes some crap up as a coping mechanism or whatever other way of reaching the conclusion that this must be some divine stuff going down.
I'm guessing this has been done before and might not be a problem. Be prepared for the consequences in-game if you let people know... or you might get lucky and only tell a few people that buy into it all - maybe being elementalists themselves, creating a small and secretive cult. This sounds cool to me, and like I said, pretty sure it has been done before with interesting results.
there is a dead desert elf tribe because they had gods so tektolnes ate them. its in docs somewhere.
Quote from: Cindy42 on June 15, 2011, 07:01:20 PM
there is a dead desert elf tribe because they had gods so tektolnes ate them. its in docs somewhere.
Which sounds like it was a lot of fun and a big plot that could eventually be created. I know there are people out there just dying to get eaten by Tek. Unless you just get quietly assassinated in a dark alley somewhere or put to death on the streets of Nak. That could be fun as well, given the right circumstances.
Quote from: Cleis on June 15, 2011, 04:32:52 PM
Quote from: Potaje on June 15, 2011, 12:44:06 PM
This is not to say some crazy gemmer wouldn't run off to the rinth to try and start a cult, or that one couldn't or shouldn't develop a personal divinity or worship to an element. But in most cases it would take years of trying to simply understand WTF is going on with them and how can they control it if it can even be controlled. So keeping that in mind, it would really be hard pressed to one day wake up, puke out water from your mouth, ear hole and then suddenly go from commoner pot maker to holy devote Viv the acolyte.
When I brought the idea up, I was thinking along the lines of a newly-manifested elemental who, in the face of the sheer magnitude of what's happening to her, has a mini (or not mini) breakdown, makes some crap up as a coping mechanism or whatever other way of reaching the conclusion that this must be some divine stuff going down. I was wondering if there was a reason why she wouldn't fall back on the (IRL) tried-n-tested way of explaining the apparently inexplicable: religion.
I agree with you that this would have to happen in the absence of an established magicker institution/sub-culture, so it's highly unlikely that a 'Nakki gemmer would do this. Everyone around him is saying "yeah, it's this and you're an abomination but a useful one so you can hang", he has an explanation for his situation.
I think it could be possible, though, and correct me if I'm wrong on the cultural evaluation, that a Tuluki (for example) who manifests might (after a period of "why me"ing and "oh no I'm gross"ing) start to rationalise their "affliction" with their instinctive self-preservation by seeing themselves as the Chosen One of some ancient elemental god. I think this would be an interesting role to play out, if a likely short-lived one, if this cult-of-one decides to go evangelical.
This post pretty much hits the nail on the head of what I was trying to get to. There are few things that could definitely lead to a religious archetypal character; rationalizing something like being a magicker is one of them. We should also not forget general sociopathy -- one narcissistic magicker, after a while and perhaps too much luck, might grow to believe that they were gifted or "chosen" rather than cursed. I do think that even if you sprouted some hideous third eye IRL, you might think yourself gross -- unless you discovered that third eye could render you invisible, teleport you, or set your enemies on fire with a mere thought... at which point, you might find yourself on a drug-like powertrip. There is also the desire to be a part of a group and feel a sense of belonging. In Allanak, this HAS been established through the gemmed magickers, but elsewhere (outside of accepting tribes) there is no such support network. As much as we might like to think of some sneaky magicker who spends their days camping out alone in the desert waiting to get you, it's really not a natural state.
And what happens when you DO get a small group together that is heavily ostracized? They suffer from a positive feedback loop amongst themselves -- now instead of "well, lets just stick together to survive", they begin to think a LOT more about "Us vs. Them". Maybe they begin to rationalize as a group, and see "signs" in everything. Maybe they realize that they're just misunderstood and they've been chosen to return some forgotten god back to power. Or something. Now you have a cult, and a potentially nasty one, at that.
Quote from: Sokotra on June 15, 2011, 08:39:07 PM
Quote from: Cindy42 on June 15, 2011, 07:01:20 PM
there is a dead desert elf tribe because they had gods so tektolnes ate them. its in docs somewhere.
Which sounds like it was a lot of fun and a big plot that could eventually be created. I know there are people out there just dying to get eaten by Tek. Unless you just get quietly assassinated in a dark alley somewhere or put to death on the streets of Nak. That could be fun as well, given the right circumstances.
Yes, please. :D There's something thrilling about being the fox in a fox hunt, so long as you get the opportunity to grow large enough that there's an actual chase to be had.
Michael Fassbender is going to roll up the first steel-elemental and start a revenge quest against templars.
Having just recently begun my first family role on this mud. Might I offer the thought of a family role with a backstory that either imparts religion to the family members or gives them a strong leaning towards it? Ponder it!
Quote from: Erythil on June 16, 2011, 01:15:21 AM
Michael Fassbender
assbender? omfg now there are feces elementalists
and psionicists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system)?
Go see X-Men First Class. ::)
Quote from: Cleis on June 15, 2011, 04:32:52 PM
When I brought the idea up, I was thinking along the lines of a newly-manifested elemental who, in the face of the sheer magnitude of what's happening to her, has a mini (or not mini) breakdown, makes some crap up as a coping mechanism or whatever other way of reaching the conclusion that this must be some divine stuff going down.
I went with this plotline once.
Highly entertaining - though I didn't really ask permission to do it. It evolved naturally as I started to play the character. There generally seems to be an openness to new, unsupported perspectives IC if you can be tasteful and non-overbearing about it (even when your position is unassailable).
My magickers have all been different in what reverence they show their element. My common trend seems to be the more powerful they get, the more elementally-minded they get. But I've had my share of 'gickers that viewed magick as a misfortune that just needed to be taken advantage of at arms' length.
My closest "religious" magicker was a Whiran who had this obsessive, Oedipal love thing with his element. And would, like... take it to physical levels sometimes. :-X
But never any blatant worship-like stuff. Though I appreciate that there's the room for it IG. Really, I don't think there are any "concrete" magick lore things you're going to learn without staff involvement, which means there are a ton of different ways to approach it all. Part of the appeal of playing a 'gicker is deciding how they approach their gift or curse.
As to sorcerers, I imagine that they only worship themselves.
As to commoners, it's probably in their physical best interests to not think too hard about such things, and pay due respect to their god-kings.
People worship what gives them power, the feeling of power, or because it is more powerful.
So objects of worship? Could be the Godkings, Dragons, Elementals, the established crimelord, etc.
Plenty of concrete IC magick info ingame you dont need staff for.
Quote from: Potaje on June 15, 2011, 12:44:06 PM
So keeping that in mind, it would really be hard pressed to one day wake up, puke out water from your mouth, ear hole and then suddenly go from commoner pot maker to holy devote Viv the acolyte.
The Vivaduan Temple [EW]
This is where all the newbs hang out. There's some water here, big whoop. You're not that thirsty anyways because you're a Vivaduan. Unless you're not a Vivaduan. In which case, why are you lingering long enough to even read this. Guards?
<100/100 - 125/125 - 80/80 - 100/100 - walking>
l w
To the west is the Inside of the Temple.
[Near]
(http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=736192&d=1248836614)
There's religion in Zalanthas but its mostly not organized. The people in the city states see their king as a god -- out of fear usually.
Outside of the city states its find out IC.
You can play a magicker who worships their element. I did more than a year ago. In fact, any personification of the elements can lead to some fun RP for reasons I won't share here.
The staff have stated previously, that your character can choose to believe whatever your character would believe but don't expect others to hold the same view. So you can worship a gink rat called Stu if you wanted to. I think the only time its a problem is if you join a clan where worshipping a ginka rat called Stu is very outside the norm. For exampling, apping a Templar who keeps a rat he worships seem a bit out of place.
I didn't have time to read it all, but this is my take on the questions:
1.) Does Tektolnes out-rank the elemental spiritual gods? Is he viewed as having more actual power than they do?
According to him (the templarate) he does. Also, I will comment on your use of the word gods - it's very unfitting. Tek isn't really toted as a "god". He's simply the ultimate power there ever was. Concept of godhood is a bit alien to Zalanthalas, I believe. I know people would sometimes mention "the gods" IG sometimes, but that's simply a lazy way to speak about the "powers that be".
2.) Are Krath/Vivadu/etc. viewed as outcast gods? Is there some accepted explanation for magickers concerning them, and why it's "okay" to demonize them or, for Allanak, enslave them?
The elemental powers are not viewed generally as gods. Even elementalists themselves take a long time to understand the nature of the elementals. Also when mentioning "Whira's luck" or "Whira's a bitch", many would perhaps imagine a lady whira - I suspect just as many would see it as an expression of a non-sentinent power as well. The elements are praised differently, though still - calling Whira a godess would be stretching it in the situation of this world and setting. If you catch my drift.
3.) What in the world do Tulukis think of all this? Do they have their own god-king, or do they think Allanakis are just $%*#@ idiots?
Tulukis worship their own sort of god-king.. He's a bit of a poopy-head. (They call him the Sun-King, he has a pyramid and his own Templarate to tote his awesomeness). In essence, it's the same sort of deal up north - but there are vast differences, though the system is the same. Very powerful entity revered as king/ruler/ultimate power and it has an ironfisted templarate to reinforce that view.
4.) Is there any group (including desert elves) that are viewed as fanatical?
No one would question anyones fervor to their sorc-king. Also, the desert elves and tribals have their own unique "religions" (I use that term loosely here). And some of these can be seen as very hostile to outsiders, or unforgiving to invaders. Thus that could be considered fanatical, but it is more a question of it being aggresive and protective cultures.
Anyway, just my take on it all. The usage of the word god always bothered. And to comment further on the title "The Dragon". There are several things in this world that can be titulated the Dragon. The Highlord Tek is one of them, but there are other things - and those can be found out IG or if researched through forums-histories and the timeline and whatnots..
I highly encourage PCs to ask other PCs about Tektolnes or Muk Utep IC, in either Allanak or Tuluk, especially their respective Templarates or militias. Obviously I would stray from making claims/questions that could be seen as 'heathenry,' but I have seen a number of excellent scenes revolving around teaching "outsiders" or the unlearned on these subjects.
Zealous PCs are often more than happy to spread the good word.
Also, feel free to walk around after Templars and collect their sweat rags.
I mean, if you can't be one of them, you may as well drink the water that beads off their mighty brows. Or breasts.
Quote from: Riev on July 26, 2011, 08:09:13 PM
Also, feel free to walk around after Templars and collect their sweat rags.
I mean, if you can't be one of them, you may as well drink the water that beads off their mighty brows. Or breasts.
Hmmmm, breast sweat.. or nipple dew.. right up there with Duck butter.. or was it vestric butter.
One of the best parts of my current role, is actually finding out that in SOME places, spirituality defines a people and isn't some vague 'thing', but actual religion with beliefs, etc.
Quote from: Dakota on July 27, 2011, 05:25:09 AM
One of the best parts of my current role, is actually finding out that in SOME places, spirituality defines a people and isn't some vague 'thing', but actual religion with beliefs, etc.
It's always amazing to stumble upon cultures like that in-game. It often bewilders my PCs.
I read through this thread and I'm impressed with the fealty everyone has for keeping IC information off these boards.
I've been playing the game on and off for a few years now; reading this thread did not give me any information I didn't already have.
What I already know, I learned by generously reading the documentation on the main website multiple times. So, for those of you curious about this topic: hop to it. If you're questing to learn these secrets in game, then that is a quest that will likely require multiple lives, multiple attempts, many of which will fail.
Yet another reason why Armageddon is the best game in the world.