So, I see PC's using words like fundamental for example. And i'm not going to accuse anyone of bad roleplay. I assume the best of players always. But would average Zalanthians know words with more than 5 syllables? Whenever I see PC's use them, I assume they heard a noble or bard speak it once and just picks it up from context, I think Zalanthians are smart enough to gain knowledge of a word through context. So personally, I avoid big words unless my character hears another character use them first, then uses it many times in the next few conversations so my PC can remember the word.
I'm just curious as to how large the vocabulary of an average amos would be. And would nobles or bards have a larger one?
I think it depends on the character and their background.
A trained linguist, bard, or noble would definitely be well within their role to use big words.
Some uneducated Malik from the commoner's quarter, perhaps not.
Fundamental has four syllables.
I am guilty of talking over my pc's ability on occasion. But for a model, I'm more likely to look at say, Deadwood than a Hollywood action film.
I mean look at things like prison writing and oral tradition. People may not be able to spell all the words they use, they may not always say them perfectly or with proper grammar, but the uneducated are capable of eloquence all the same.
One additional syllable for each rung of the social ladder.
QuoteI mean look at things like prison writing and oral tradition. People may not be able to spell all the words they use, they may not always say them perfectly or with proper grammar, but the uneducated are capable of eloquence all the same.
Valid point. I mean, it doesn't break my immersion or anything. I just thought it was interesting. I don't think big words are a pre-requisite to eloquence though.
Fundamental's a big word?
Quote from: Kalai on June 05, 2011, 12:22:34 AM
Fundamental's a big word?
I almost said that. :D
QuoteFundamental's a big word?
Well no... It's just the only example of a biggish word I've heard from the game I could think of at the moment lol
When I see character talk like that I imagine them with British accents.
"Precipitously close to a precarious foray into the art of shiv-shufflin'. Ain't we Malik?"
"I dare say we're over the precipice and at the bottom of the Shield, Amos. Are we going to keep chattering or shall we dance."
"Dance we shall!"
Big words are okay. When homeless guy with swords #6 tells someone about his 'legal rights' you start rolling your eyes.
Homeless guy has no rights. But there's no reason he can't lament that poetically, is there?
There's a difference between someone sounding poetic and someone sounding like they grew up in a legalistic, common law society instead of the corrupt hellholes of the Black and White Pits.
That sounds like a win win to me. I'll buy that.
Guilty. I use big words.
Subsequent to producing an apparently prodigious, yet maddeningly ethereal cloud of nauseating flatulence, expelled with a great, reverberating, ripping belch from what could only be--judging from the malodorousness of its effluvium--horribly tainted bowels, the tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
"Krath."
If a character talks eloquently or in a sophisticated manner, I assume they have a reason for it, and move on. Otherwise, I tend to not question the way characters talk.
Antidisestablishmentarianism.
anti-dis?
Woudlnt' that just be establishmentarianism?
No, it specifically means one was against the disestablishment of the Church of England. As the Church was established long ago and never disestablished, it would not make sense to be for or against its establishment in the present day. It's already established.
Quote from: BleakOne on June 05, 2011, 02:13:01 AM
Antidisestablishmentarianism.
Dare you to type that into a speak&spell
"My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable." - Mike Tyson
Don't forget they're not speaking english. Those big words we imagine are big words could be small words in sirihish or any other language. Bet ya'll didn't take that into account.
Quote from: Chettaman on June 05, 2011, 10:32:48 AM
Don't forget they're not speaking english. Those big words we imagine are big words could be small words in sirihish or any other language. Bet ya'll didn't take that into account.
Extremely good point.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 05, 2011, 12:41:49 AM
When I see character talk like that I imagine them with British accents.
"Precipitously close to a precarious foray into the art of shiv-shufflin'. Ain't we Malik?"
"I dare say we're over the precipice and at the bottom of the Shield, Amos. Are we going to keep chattering or shall we dance."
"Dance we shall!"
This made my day.
Usually I try to have my characters talk with an appropriate level of education. But that may or may not have anything to do with word length. Using long words and being wordy aren't quite the same thing I don't think.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 05, 2011, 02:03:23 AM
Subsequent to producing an apparently prodigious, yet maddeningly ethereal cloud of nauseating flatulence, expelled with a great, reverberating, ripping belch from what could only be--judging from the malodorousness of its effluvium--horribly tainted bowels, the tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
"Krath."
That's how I get around my need to use "big words". I don't like to make my random commoners speak all nice-like. I don't fault people for playing PCs with a background that supports it, though. One fun thing about playing a certain role was the ability to make my character talk more-or-less up to my writing level, which was an utterly new experience for me. I may have played too many drawlin' cowpokes in my time on Arm. ;) Ooh, for bonus points, it's fun to utterly misuse fancy words your characters overhear from time to time.
I love misusing big words uttered by templars or nobles, mispronouncing, mis-everythinging.
I enjoy all the varied speech patterns folk come up with, whether or not I feel willing to put in the work myself of not knowing things.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 05, 2011, 02:03:23 AM
Subsequent to producing an apparently prodigious, yet maddeningly ethereal cloud of nauseating flatulence, expelled with a great, reverberating, ripping belch from what could only be--judging from the malodorousness of its effluvium--horribly tainted bowels, the tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
"Krath."
...moontug?
I usually use big words just because you often only have so long to compose a reply, and I would rather not take two or three minutes for a 'say' because I am trying to think of how to dumb down my language. Discarding my own knowledge of vocabulary is hard -- and while I know my character mightn't use certain words, I often just can't help it.
I try to cull some words out when I can think of a simpler synonym, although as a point of discussion, I often use advanced words in psionics (as well as remove any typed accent), to represent the nature of the non-verbal communication.
QuoteI try to cull some words out when I can think of a simpler synonym, although as a point of discussion, I often use advanced words in psionics (as well as remove any typed accent), to represent the nature of the non-verbal communication.
I do the same thing. And if i'm a Dwarf or an Elf, I use bigger words and better grammar when speaking Allundean or Mirukkim.
People using big words reminds me of the Wild West. (Like Deadwood).
Quote from: Reiloth on June 06, 2011, 12:43:45 AM
People using big words reminds me of the Wild West. (Like Deadwood).
People should say 'fixin' more.
I use reckon and highfaluting on a regular basis.
On a semi-related note, I've always seen Armageddon as a bit more 'desert western' than I have 'arabian nights' (with the exception of the tribal cultures).
What with all the hats, dusters, and swagger.
This is a good thing.
Then there's those commoners who can count well into the hundreds.
Problem is, when this happens I can't tell if the character has received some form of education or is being played poorly. (Don't get me wrong, I had no clue what one small meant until my second PC)
The usual reaction is just say (blinking) Huh?
You don't need to know every number between one and a hundred to offer to buy something for X-hundred coins or whatever. You might argue that it would be difficult to count out that many coins, but then that's where you have to suspend disbelief for playability, right along with the part where people carry around a thousand stone coins.
I would rather someone use big words than do the thing where they w'it' ou' 'heir PC's a''en' l'ke ''is.
There's this whole vast world between counting and trigonometry. You really have an issue with people doing basic math?
Johnny can't read, but he sure as fuck knows when you try to stiff him on that rock he just sold you.
Illiterate doesn't mean stupid.
Johnny can't read or count very well. But Nenyuk told him that the stacks of coins he just withdraw were in 50 sid piles each. He then passes those piles on to you. ZOMG ILLEGAL COUNTING?!!! Or relying on the banksters? Hard to know ...
tell red (humbly) I don't need literacy for logarithms, Great Lord.
You seriously can't make a distinction between counting and logarithms? Really? Really?
...I wasn't actually being sarcastic. By logarithms I mean digits, so you can count large numbers in a tight space. I think most commoners in any sort of commerce would be able to do this.
Quote from: a strange shadow on June 06, 2011, 05:00:32 AM
On a semi-related note, I've always seen Armageddon as a bit more 'desert western' than I have 'arabian nights' (with the exception of the tribal cultures).
What with all the hats, dusters, and swagger.
This is a good thing.
I've always seen it as a kind of delicious blend. Like nachos.
The reason I can't count in French is because I've never been taught too. I assume if I spent a life-time there without being taught I'd pick up something simple like one to ten. (Assuming the rest of the common population didn't know how to count, either)
Now, keeping in mind that if I were to use something familiar to me (such as English counting) they're not going to have a clue what it is I'm trying to say. In such a situation, I'd say something like I'll give you ten ten euros for that watch, since if I said a hundred to some one who doesn't speak English won't understand me.
If I were in Zalanthas however, I'd say something the lines of I'll give you a small and a quarter. (being 125 stone coins, and I think a commoner would be aware that a small=ten piles of ten coins. They would know what a half is because of the existance of half-elves and a quarter isn't too hard of a concept to understand, either.)
Should that commoner really know he's twenty three years old?
It seems the more logical answer would be "something around quarter of a small" or "two tens and something" rather than being told straight out that he's twenty three. This way I know that I'm speaking to a character who is uneducated, or is pretending to be for some reason or another.
Not bitching about an IC event, just an example.
Counting is not language-specific. The whole world uses base-10 for a reason...those wiggling little digits at the ends of your arms. Whatever you call the various numbers, you are always using 0 through 9, and counting money is a perfect illustration of how simple this is: Make a stack of ten, then repeat until you have ten stacks, then repeat until you have ten sets of ten stacks, etc.
Knowing the language comes with immersion. If you spent a year in France with no opportunity to speak in your native tongue, you would most certainly learn the words for how much money you have to spend on a regular basis. Again, there is a misnomer that being ignorant of the written form is equivalent to being stupid, which is not the case.
To count to 9999 in English, you only need to know 37 distinct words.
Edit: 38 if you have an understanding of zero (Greeks didn't, but Arabs did).
Also with large denominations of coins, I sometimes play it as there being bigger chits. I mean, carrying around 2000 coins is kind of ridiculous.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 06, 2011, 01:32:51 PM
Also with large denominations of coins, I sometimes play it as there being bigger chits. I mean, carrying around 2000 coins is kind of ridiculous.
Same, but then I was told that there are no larger denominations of coins. However, I feel comfortable bucking trend on that and RPing it anyway, because, yeah.
How do you know they are using a big word?
No, really...the sirihish word for fundamental might be "click" Or the Allundean could be "Su". Just because the concept translates to a big word in English does not mean it is in another language.
Even on earth, some languages have single short words to name a concept that takes a couple sentences in English.
Others have very long ways of saying something you or I can do in 1-2 words.
And still others have a way of speaking that forces you to make large words because that is simply the way it works, Latin for example.
Remember, they are not speaking english, maybe when you See "The grungy man says in rinthi accented sirihish,"The fundamental methods to excavate a ditch is with a shovel." He said "Click click pop dig."
For the sake of intelligible storytelling, I think it's best to assume that characters whose speech is translated as high-falutin' English are conceived to be speaking high-falutin' Sirihish...and that them that isn't ain't.
Though I'm not sure where that leaves the dwarves.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on June 06, 2011, 02:02:54 PM
Though I'm not sure where that leaves the dwarves.
They're still Scots with invisible (and untouchable) beards.
I do not agree, least not on words, but I would on style of speech.
Cause Ah think ya bein Fundamentally wrong in ya assum'n that.
Because my good man, your assumption is fundamentally flawed.
Quote from: X-D on June 06, 2011, 02:05:56 PM
Because my good man, your assumption is fundamentally flawed.
I think you're overthinking this so much that you're wrong even though you're right.
As the sole translator of your character's words (if your character was real and speaking sirihish somewhere), you get a fair bit of creative license in order to express the full sense of what was said. If your translation uses a noticeably stronger or weaker vocabulary than what we commonly encounter in real life, well, why? What are you trying to convey when you type out your "say" command? If you're merely expressing your personal preference for erudite speech, well, I submit that you're making things a little confusing.
If you prefer to translate everything into an average, everyday vocabulary level, whether you're playing a highblood noble or a scumbag rinthi, that's fine, of course...but why wouldn't you avail yourself of that extra expressive range?
The most natural interpretation of someone using
unusually big words is that it's reflective of the PC's "real" speech.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on June 06, 2011, 02:02:54 PM
Though I'm not sure where that leaves the dwarves.
They speak Sirihish As a Second Language.
Quote from: NOFUN on June 06, 2011, 05:04:51 AM
Then there's those commoners who can count well into the hundreds.
Problem is, when this happens I can't tell if the character has received some form of education or is being played poorly. (Don't get me wrong, I had no clue what one small meant until my second PC)
The usual reaction is just say (blinking) Huh?
I played a dumb rinther before who couldn't use big, fancy words at all. She'd try and botch them. Get easily confused. But she knew how to count easily, and her justification was that when you're starving on a semi-regular basis, and life is always a struggle for coin, you learn very quickly to count every single one and make sure each one lasts. In other words, the difference between fifteen and twenty five coins is a meal. Amongst intelligent, but uneducated people who handle money often, and end up counting various sums and weights (such as with drug dealers), they'll learn the basics pretty quickly. Being uneducated does not mean you're unintelligent, and being unintelligent does not mean that you're entirely incapable of understanding fundamental concepts.
That said, if other characters knowing how to count is bothering people, it seems to be either a situation where they have IC reason, or it's just suspension of disbelief for the sake of practicality.
How is it natural? I leave speech style to speech style and emotes myself.
If your PC is speaking in a highbrow style I leave it to you to explain that in the speech emotes or other emotes.
Or sentence structure since I assume when it is translated from sirihish to english it is comparable.
But the words themselves I assume nothing because I do not know if the sirihish form is a big word, or if it is considered by the people that speak it to be a big word and neither do you or anybody else.
27 syllable words might very well be the norm for lowlives and thieves, nothing says one way or another on that matter, maybe it is considered the height of society to use shorter words.
We're talking about players interpreting words spoken by characters, not characters interpreting words spoken by characters, X-D.
It is true that you (the player) can't interpret for your character whether any particular word that you (the player) see on the screen is large or not. If we were stuck doing only that, we couldn't (in-character) comment on any sort of style of speech, because the entirety of it is behind a curtain of ignorance.
Given that, we sometimes -do- need to comment on styles of speech, in-character. The only reasonable way of approaching this is that the speech you (the player) see coming out of another character represents both a) the content of the speech the player behind that character intends to convey and b) the style of the speech that the player behind that character intends to convey. Otherwise, every time we wanted to convey style, we would be forced to do something like: say (using very large words, some of which are borrowed from an ancient dialect that only master bards would be familiar with) Hi guys, what's up?. That may be appropriate-ish, if you're every now and then waxing philosophical in-character. However, it would be incredibly burdensome if every time your 'rinther spoke, you had to: say (in a street-trash dialect) Hello, gentlemen. I see that you're toting a fair amount of fineries through these alleys, here. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to relieve you of their burden, else violence will ensue.
Thus, the natural, and simple thing is to infer both content and style from the text. It's a common enough literary technique that I'm sure you're familiar with it, and really, it seems like you're being argumentative about it just to over-reach with a linguistic point that is valid, but misapplied.
Accents are already handled by the Accent Code that Armageddon has in place, any accents a player puts in are variations on how they talk.
As far as big words, what about someone that has a background of being a traveling merchant, or having TRAVELED with a merchant for a long time. Would they know words like 'price gouging' or 'studying the market prices' or even the idea of 'investments'?
I think a key thing to remember is that these people aren't illiterate because they're too stupid to learn. They are illiterate because literacy is illegal. So, they don't read things, and they don't write things down.
I think there's a lot of wiggle room with how your pc talks. Can you show where they are and where they come from and still use big words? If you can and you want to, do it.
I think that someone made a good point about technical terms and the jargon of advanced learning that goes beyond just an entertaining vocabulary. I might find it strange that your rinther knows what a fungible commodity is, unless you have a really good reason why they should. But if your rinther in general impresses me as being played as a rinther, I'd probably trust you the player.
What bothers me is when I do it. When I decide how my pc should talk, and then they talk differently. that's not good.
Personaly I enjoy the diversity of our player base and their styles of play. We're all different in age, we all have different I.Q.'s, we've all been playing different lengths of time. Some of us can dumb it down when we switch from playing an elf to a half-giant, some haven't been playing long enough to know how to. Again, personaly speaking, I haven't run into a character in the last 2 RL years that I haven't enjoyed playing along side.
Spell things wrong
Kiss that guy by accident
Life goes on
Enjoy the game
Just my piece.
-edit-
All of your posts are valid and excelent points btw. (except you Bleak one)
Quote from: perfecto on June 07, 2011, 12:17:16 AM
All of your posts are valid and excelent points btw.
Mine was neither valid nor excelent.
First off, I want to point out that the first two pages of the "Big words!" thread had the shortest (typically one line) responses I've ever seen. Scroll back through it quick. ;)
Secondly, though I agree that "antidisestablishmentarianism" may simply be pronounced "a" in Sirihish, I don't see that as a valid / playable argument. We damn well can't define the language, so to say that "this might be a small word" is moot. The only practical thing to do is to assume that big English words are big Sirihish words, and good English grammar is good Sirihish grammar. (Same goes for the other 5 or 6 languages players speak regularly.) I mean, these languages (especially in tribal RP) already boast an impressive dictionary of original slang and jargon.
On the subject of counting, I agree wholly with the "necessity" argument. Maybe they counted that stack of 500 sid ten times to make absolutely certain. And, uneducated =/= dumb or unresourceful. Think about that drug dealer. Chances are he can barely read, but out of necessity and practice, he can count. Maybe he can't multiply fractions, but he can sure as hell convert grams to 1/8ths of an ounce.
So, basically, for the sake of playability, I'm going to assume that the connotations of the English someone is using, parallel the connotations of the IG language. Also, if that eliminates the need to sit and try to translate players who speak like they're chewing a mouthful of rocks, I'm doubly supportive.
(Side note, Shakespeare used some big words and all the largely uneducated masses of England understood him a hell of a lot better than most high-school seniors.)
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on June 07, 2011, 11:50:58 AM
(Side note, Shakespeare used some big words and all the largely uneducated masses of England understood him a hell of a lot better than most high-school seniors.)
Along with your side note: There was a fair amount of Shakespeare's writing that was over the head of the general, rotten-fruit crowd. That's how he got those box seats filled. But connotation and context does wonders for even the uneducated masses. And, so long as you throw in a sex joke now and again, your actors wont get pelted with produce.
Edit: A favorite example of this in humor is the constable character from "Much Ado About Nothing". He clearly is an uneducated lout who has a -very- poor vocabulary, but tries to use words he doesn't understand. I imagine the well-educated members of the audience would have found the character far more amusing than the common folk who, likely, also didn't understand the words he tries to use. (Michael Keaton does an excellent rendition of this character in the 1993 movie version)
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 07, 2011, 01:15:54 PM"Much Ado About Nothing"
I love that play so damn much.
QuoteMaybe he can't multiply fractions, but he can sure as hell convert grams to 1/8ths of an ounce.
3.5
Swag.
I learnt in my econ class that way way WAY back in the day counting wasn't as easy as we think...
Two traders would come together and use stones in order to count out a trade. They didn't have a concept of basic counting, so if I had sheep and you had corn, I would place 15 stones onto a table, you would put down 5 and we would go collect that many of each other's trade item.
We can do simple 25 + 9 in modern times, but back in the day, they'd need to sit down and use stones or a counting measure, and even then, they might not be able to give a word to the number - as such isn't a very important part of life to a hunter.
But this really depends on how far in history you are going back... And has nothing to do with the OP....
As for the use of big words, I let them go because I like to use them... and I tend to believe that if it is a big word in english, it is a big word in sirihish. Because we are seeing a translation of the words spoken... you can say I fell down the hill, or I tumbled down the hill. Tumbled is a bigger word techniqually, and as such it would be considered that in sirihish too...
I have no idea if any of that makes sense, so I'll tip my hat and move on.
When was this? And was this in a place that worked mostly on barter? In communities when everything was shared? I bet it's much harder to count if it only comes up once a year.
Zalanthas works in coins. Everything costs coins. People talk about how much things cost. People see coins exchanged all the time.
I choose to think characters who speak with big, fancy words are using similar big, fancy words in Sirihish or whatever language they're speaking.
As for counting, it would be far too annoying if the characters didn't know how to count high numbers. If they suddenly lost the ability to count beyond one to ten, I'd assume that the currency would change to match. With actual different coins for singles, Smalls, and Larges.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 08, 2011, 06:59:03 AM
When was this? And was this in a place that worked mostly on barter? In communities when everything was shared? I bet it's much harder to count if it only comes up once a year.
Actually, this was the basis for the development of cuneiform. So, it was not small communal groups, but what historians consider some of the first true city societies.
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 08, 2011, 12:03:14 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on June 08, 2011, 06:59:03 AM
When was this? And was this in a place that worked mostly on barter? In communities when everything was shared? I bet it's much harder to count if it only comes up once a year.
Actually, this was the basis for the development of cuneiform. So, it was not small communal groups, but what historians consider some of the first true city societies.
Nod. And I believe we are talking 3,400 B.C. - which is a hard to argue if Zalanthas is further or beyond that point of evolution - because without the proper raw materials we will never reach the information age (modern day). Can't compare Zalanthas to Earth - I keep forgeting that rule.
BUT - Zalanthas isn't earth, and Zalanthas is in the obsidian-age... and their entire economy makes little sense in the first place (a chip of obsidian is worhtless - can't be melted down to form a large chunk again for use - and they're financial system isn't really evolved enough to accept fiat money) - it's a game, it works, I smile when I play.
What X-D said.
We aren't speaking english in IC terms, so I generally assume that many english words have an IC equivalent that is realistic to use in the context of the gameworld. I don't think it's an issue unless some gritty Bynner starts speaking Shakespeare english or something silly like that. :D
Quote from: Shepard on June 09, 2011, 09:02:51 AM
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 08, 2011, 12:03:14 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on June 08, 2011, 06:59:03 AM
When was this? And was this in a place that worked mostly on barter? In communities when everything was shared? I bet it's much harder to count if it only comes up once a year.
Actually, this was the basis for the development of cuneiform. So, it was not small communal groups, but what historians consider some of the first true city societies.
Nod. And I believe we are talking 3,400 B.C. - which is a hard to argue if Zalanthas is further or beyond that point of evolution - because without the proper raw materials we will never reach the information age (modern day). Can't compare Zalanthas to Earth - I keep forgeting that rule.
BUT - Zalanthas isn't earth, and Zalanthas is in the obsidian-age... and their entire economy makes little sense in the first place (a chip of obsidian is worhtless - can't be melted down to form a large chunk again for use - and they're financial system isn't really evolved enough to accept fiat money) - it's a game, it works, I smile when I play.
I assume that Zalanthas was more developed earlier in it's history and while technology went back to stone-age levels, concepts like counting and money stuck around. I can't find anything to support this downfall in the docs though.
Edit: Found it
Quote
Scholars are fairly certain that Zalanthas was not always like this, but was once a lush, beautiful world that supported life in abundance. The exact history of the world is not known, but what is known is that long ago, there was an enormous empire called the Empire of Man. It is believed that this empire collapsed when a being known as the Dragon visited the world, causing chaos and disrupting the world in many ways.
tl;dr
(http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/22297000/ngbbs4d283bdaca9d9.jpg)
I hate funny accents typed out l'k' th's b'cuas' i' sh'ws h'w 'n'dooc't'd th' 'r.
What's wrong with say (in a rough, commoner accent) blah blah blah.
An easy way to fix it would be to split accents between rough northern, rough southern and refined northern, and refined southern. Not really all that on topic, but I hate sitting there trying to decipher your idiotic bullshit, because you can't figure out how to get across that your character isn't speaking perfectly, except by making them an absolute caricature.
HEHE.
I cannot even count the number of times my PC has done this.
em looks blankly at odd talking person for a moment.
tell odd talking person SPEAK SIRIHISH FOOL!
Odd talking person says in rinthi accented sirihish, "Bu' ah 'm.
tell odd talking person Go away.
em pointedly ignores odd talking person from here on out.
Yea, there should be an arm seminar about when and where an apostrophe can be used. It is possible to use them to convey a lazy speech pattern without completely obfuscating your meaning. Sound it out.
Ah don' like tha way yer lookin' at me, grebber.
Mebbe ah'll show ya tha sharp end'a mah sword, huh?
I visualize characters like that as Bad Man from GTA IV.
Example. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SurUORtU86s)
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 10, 2011, 02:06:38 PM
Yea, there should be an arm seminar about when and where an apostrophe can be used. It is possible to use them to convey a lazy speech pattern without completely obfuscating your meaning. Sound it out.
Ah don' like tha way yer lookin' at me, grebber.
Mebbe ah'll show ya tha sharp end'a mah sword, huh?
Even this is annoying as shit, just FYI.
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 10, 2011, 02:27:42 PM
I visualize characters like that as Bad Man from GTA IV.
Example. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SurUORtU86s)
Hah! Good example, though Badman's speech is strewn with Rasta vernacular which is such a localized dialect that it could almost be considered a different language.
"Ya Rudeboy, lemme tell'a sometin. Ya'see'f fish could keep der mout cloas, dem wouldn' get caught Rudeboy."
Edit: The above isn't really an example of Rasta vernacular, but it was my favorite of Badman's sayings.
Quote from: maxid on June 10, 2011, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 10, 2011, 02:06:38 PM
Yea, there should be an arm seminar about when and where an apostrophe can be used. It is possible to use them to convey a lazy speech pattern without completely obfuscating your meaning. Sound it out.
Ah don' like tha way yer lookin' at me, grebber.
Mebbe ah'll show ya tha sharp end'a mah sword, huh?
Even this is annoying as shit, just FYI.
I disagree. Using these two examples,
say (in a rough, low-born accent) I don't like the way you are looking at me, grebber.
say Ah don' like tha way yer lookin' at me, grebber.
The reason I prefer the second one comes from the idea that it is better to
show the reader what you are portraying as opposed to
telling them. The first one certainly gets the job done, but it is uninspired.
Whenever I have a character with an 'accent' I just pick two or three simple things - dropping 'gs' (droppin', killin'), the traditional rinthi th' for the, maybe one more like saying 'yeh' or 'da.' A consistent accent is far more convincing, and a little less irritating, than just throwing random apostrophes and misspellings everywhere.
Oh, no doubt about that. Part of my character design process is to decide how they talk, and you know you're pulling it off when other characters do impressions of your character IG and it comes off convincingly.
Quote from: Drayab on June 10, 2011, 03:22:07 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 10, 2011, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 10, 2011, 02:06:38 PM
Yea, there should be an arm seminar about when and where an apostrophe can be used. It is possible to use them to convey a lazy speech pattern without completely obfuscating your meaning. Sound it out.
Ah don' like tha way yer lookin' at me, grebber.
Mebbe ah'll show ya tha sharp end'a mah sword, huh?
Even this is annoying as shit, just FYI.
I disagree. Using these two examples,
say (in a rough, low-born accent) I don't like the way you are looking at me, grebber.
say Ah don' like tha way yer lookin' at me, grebber.
The reason I prefer the second one comes from the idea that it is better to show the reader what you are portraying as opposed to telling them. The first one certainly gets the job done, but it is uninspired.
There is precedent for having accents being simply told to the reader, (southern-accented sirihish) etc. You're not doing anything but making it more difficult for the player to read. And accent is something you hear ONLY if your own accent is different. A guy from the south doesn't hear an accent as being slow sounding (I'm from the south, and stereotypically it's the 'dumb' accent) or uneducated. You're assuming a standard (properly typed English) that doesn't actually exist, because to a person with the same accent, you are perfectly understandable. Since you cannot specify that to other rinthis it should be proper English, and to southsiders, it should be a nigh incomprehensible wordvomit, you should use the TELL method of Rping.
My point is reinforced by the fact that when someone is speaking in the same accent as you? The code doesn't list an accent. Quit making your speech harder to read for no reason, because you think it's a cool unique character quirk (its not). Unless your character is literally brain damaged, the accent they have is going to be related to the people they grew up with and, for the vast majority of people, it's going to be the same/almost exactly the same as the people around you, so there is NO NEED for the stupid shortening. And, when a person's accent actually does differ? The code already tells people!
edit: Little stuff, like ya'll, gonna, ain't, lookin', etc. is fine. But when you start using AH instead of I, or cutting off half the words, you look retarded. Because people who have the same accent as you (GENERALLY: FUCKING EVERYONE YOU'RE AROUND) will not hear 'ah' they'll hear I.
edit 2: VVVV This, this all day long. Please for the love of god do this, don't write like a flailing rhesus monkey is attacking your keyboard, just use simpler vernacular. VVVV
You can use simpler words to convey a simple sentence without having to break out the 'ahs' and 'yers'. Maybe throw in some favorite words or modes of expression.
Yeah, mate, I'm gonna hit the Gaj tonight. Let's get drunk.
vs
Yes, I'll be at the Traders' tonight, if you'd like to share a glass of wine.
Y'all is the contraction of you all, and is spelled y'all, not ya'll.
That's all, y'all.
Quote from: maxid on June 10, 2011, 04:05:16 PM
My point is reinforced by the fact that when someone is speaking in the same accent as you? The code doesn't list an accent. Quit making your speech harder to read for no reason, because you think it's a cool unique character quirk (its not). Unless your character is literally brain damaged, the accent they have is going to be related to the people they grew up with and, for the vast majority of people, it's going to be the same/almost exactly the same as the people around you, so there is NO NEED for the stupid shortening. And, when a person's accent actually does differ? The code already tells people!
edit: Little stuff, like ya'll, gonna, ain't, lookin', etc. is fine. But when you start using AH instead of I, or cutting off half the words, you look retarded. Because people who have the same accent as you (GENERALLY: FUCKING EVERYONE YOU'RE AROUND) will not hear 'ah' they'll hear I.
edit 2: VVVV This, this all day long. Please for the love of god do this, don't write like a flailing rhesus monkey is attacking your keyboard, just use simpler vernacular. VVVV
Wow - you really hate it huh?
But seriously...what's it like in America? Because here in England each area in cities have loads of different accents, different schools have different ways of speaking, different family quirks, people swing through different varieties of accents mid sentence - all sorts!
It's purely a personal 'taste' issue - not something that can be a right or wrong way to do things. Personally, I find it boring if everyone 'sounds' like educated Americans. I like the fact everybody doesn't speak the same. It adds flavour, adds realism when you have trouble understanding everybody equally, and I don't find it annoyin'.
Make your character have a problem with it and deal with it IC? Or send in a complaint.
Bitching about it on the GDB just makes me w' t' d' i' m', t' b' h. J' t' p' y' o'!
Maxid, how do you feel about The Adventures of Huckleberry Fin? There are certainly people on both sides of the debate over whether it is 'proper' to write in the vernacular, but at the same time there are few that would equate his writing with wordvomit or rhesus monkey flailing. He serves as an example of somebody that is good at it.
As for the code already handling accents, do you think that everybody that starts with the southern accented talks exactly the same, from the lowest grebber all the way to High Lord Fancy Pants?
Maxid, what began as a comment about sentences being literally unreadable due to flawed punctuation has now become a personal style argument. You clearly have taken offense at the method I choose to convey some character's speech patterns, but the fact remains that it is comprehensible in the form I presented. Just because you assume I am one of those who considers the accents of the Southern US (of which there are quite a few) to equate to "dumb" or "uneducated" does not mean that you should try to prove it being being declarative, reactionary, and vulgar. This, FYI, is "annoying as shit".
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 10, 2011, 05:05:21 PM
Just because you assume I am one of those who considers the accents of the Southern US (of which there are quite a few) to equate to "dumb" or "uneducated" does not mean that you should try to prove it being being declarative, reactionary, and vulgar. This, FYI, is "annoying as shit".
I didn't assume that at all. I stated a fact that it is typically used to indicate a slower or uneducated person in modern western media. Sorry you decided to take it all personally or whatever?
Drayab - No, but that is where things like the manner in which you say something (I'm gonna go get drunk vs. I am going to go have a glass of wine) that can indicate somewhat how you're speaking. As can using say (in a fancy schmancy manner of speaking) blah blah. Though, there will be little to no variation within 'southern' and 'northern' accents, because each city is less than a million people, and they have had thousands of years for it to unify into one more or less standard accent. This is not RL. This is a very small actual population, with a very regimented and regulated society.
Quote from: maxid on June 10, 2011, 05:42:41 PM
Sorry you decided to take it all personally or whatever?
Ahh, my mistake. I read your post wrong. You were just stating your opinion, rather than informing me that my opinion is annoying.
Quote from: maxid on June 10, 2011, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 10, 2011, 02:06:38 PM
...
Ah don' like tha way yer lookin' at me, grebber.
Mebbe ah'll show ya tha sharp end'a mah sword, huh?
Even this is annoying as shit, IMHO
FTFY
Thought that was understood, when there's a disagreement about things. Even if my opinion is backed up by experience, and other parts of the game (the fact that accents are already coded into the game, making your opinion on how to rp them entirely objectively redundant, rather than useful in any way shape or form) it is still just an opinion.
Consider the awkwardness of the phrasing,
'The tall, muscular man says in a rough, low-born accent, in a northern accent,"Let's go to the bar."'
Quote from: maxid on June 10, 2011, 05:42:41 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 10, 2011, 05:05:21 PM
Just because you assume I am one of those who considers the accents of the Southern US (of which there are quite a few) to equate to "dumb" or "uneducated" does not mean that you should try to prove it being being declarative, reactionary, and vulgar. This, FYI, is "annoying as shit".
Drayab - No, but that is where things like the manner in which you say something (I'm gonna go get drunk vs. I am going to go have a glass of wine) that can indicate somewhat how you're speaking. As can using say (in a fancy schmancy manner of speaking) blah blah. Though, there will be little to no variation within 'southern' and 'northern' accents, because each city is less than a million people, and they have had thousands of years for it to unify into one more or less standard accent. This is not RL. This is a very small actual population, with a very regimented and regulated society.
Doesn't the regimentation of society just encourage differentiation between castes, though?
Quote from: Ocotillo on June 10, 2011, 05:54:34 PM
Doesn't the regimentation of society just encourage differentiation between castes, though?
Absolutely. Which is why I said the game might benefit from (rough southern-accented sirihish) vs. (refined southern-accented sirihish). However, the population is also startlingly low, so accents will neutralize.
Quote from: maxid on June 10, 2011, 05:53:02 PM
Thought that was understood, when there's a disagreement about things. Even if my opinion is backed up by experience, and other parts of the game (the fact that accents are already coded into the game, making your opinion on how to rp them entirely objectively redundant, rather than useful in any way shape or form) it is still just an opinion.
Given that this is a thread dedicated to textual/verbal presentation, I feel inclined to mention that it's all in how you phrase it.
Quote from: Kalai on June 10, 2011, 05:54:24 PM
Consider the awkwardness of the phrasing,
'The tall, muscular man says in a rough, low-born accent, in a northern accent,"Let's go to the bar."'
The tall, muscular man says, his speech uneducated, in a northern accent, "Let's go to the bar." Still a bit awkward, but with clever phrasing it can work, be understandable, and not be super redundant.
Quote from: maxid on June 10, 2011, 06:06:18 PM
Quote from: Kalai on June 10, 2011, 05:54:24 PM
Consider the awkwardness of the phrasing,
'The tall, muscular man says in a rough, low-born accent, in a northern accent,"Let's go to the bar."'
The tall, muscular man says, his speech uneducated, in a northern accent, "Let's go to the bar." Still a bit awkward, but with clever phrasing it can work, be understandable, and not be super redundant.
Excuse my nitpicking, but there's nothing about the phrase "Let's go to the bar" that implies anything about the speaker's level of education.The reader is left to try to imagine how that actually works, and I'd challenge you to find two readers that imagine it the same way. This is a good example of why it is better to show rather than to tell.
The way I see it: Coded accents are there for a reason.
And if you choose to add the comma soup to your pc's speech...
What the hell reason is there for it to be in a psi? That's not verbal. That doesn't involve ANY accent.
Do you really think that the words are different from what they actually are on such a pervasive level?
I dislike the comma soup speech because it is, indeed, as has been pointed out, redundant.
But more worrisome is the Way messages.
Back on the original topic:
I was using words like 'responsibility' and 'obligation' at 2, before I could even pronounce them right, and
and understanding what they meant, too. So I don't see how it would test the limits of believability for a
person who is grown and illiterate vs a child and illiterate to use them.
Generally if I have a weirdly-accented psi (as opposed to one just with odd patterns of thought) it's entirely by accident. :P
I love and adore accents that are spelled out. Writers do it all the time. There's a reason to not leave regional accents to the player - they're not just there to add flavor to individual characters, but to actually give a hint to where the character is coming from. It needs to be recognizable by all characters as 'northern', 'southern' or something else, but you'd have a hard time trying to get players to all type out the same northern or southern accent.
Quote from: Nao on June 10, 2011, 06:47:56 PM
I love and adore accents that are spelled out. Writers do it all the time. There's a reason to not leave regional accents to the player - they're not just there to add flavor to individual characters, but to actually give a hint to where the character is coming from. It needs to be recognizable by all characters as 'northern', 'southern' or something else, but you'd have a hard time trying to get players to all type out the same northern or southern accent.
I also to think it's a mistake to assume that every person that speaks with letters or sounds eleminated is actually speaking with an accent. A lot of them may have speech impediments or strange dialects. It also helps to get the "feel" of the character, and leaves more room for your emotes to describe things they do instead of things they say. Example: "say (with a mushmouth speech impediment, tapping a finger to ~knife) Hey, I'm going to skewer that kebob and have a meal later, okay?" you could do, "say (tapping a finger to ~knife) 'ey, 'm gonna skewer tha' kebab'n 'ave me a good meal later, yeh?" Now, when you say it properly and use the say emote to "describe" how they're talking - to me anyway - it just loses a lot of the feel of the character, and their speech mannerisms and behavior. I think part of what makes a good character is the impression that they leave on others, and by specifying your own speech mannerisms you take out as many interpretive differences between you and them as possible.
If you can't understand them because their typing is weird... RP it. Say that their accent is so thick, or that you couldn't understand. You never know, maybe they're trying to RP someone with a speech impediment or accent so thick that they can't be understood, and it's easier than appending -every- say or tell emote with something that states that. It's also true that what's hard to understand to some may not be to others, so stating objectively in an emote that it's hard to understand them seems like a less favorable option than letting the players decide for themselves.
From Help Accents -
"Accents are a manner of speaking characteristic of a region or city. On Armageddon, when a character chooses a starting location in the Hall of Kings, they are given the virtual accent of that location. This means when they speak, people from other regions may be able to tell which region they are from. Using region specific words and slang is still highly encouraged, but this feature gives a coded indication of where someone is from."
Words and slang aren't the same thing as sticking commas in speech like a pincushion though.
Quote from: Ocotillo on June 10, 2011, 08:53:10 PM
From Help Accents -
"Accents are a manner of speaking characteristic of a region or city. On Armageddon, when a character chooses a starting location in the Hall of Kings, they are given the virtual accent of that location. This means when they speak, people from other regions may be able to tell which region they are from. Using region specific words and slang is still highly encouraged, but this feature gives a coded indication of where someone is from."
Holy shit I can do it too. And actually be relevant!!!!
Think both are kind of relevant, really. You're right: the code already shows an indication of what sort of accent you have. The help file then goes on to emphasize that the code is not a substitute for all further depiction of your speech.
I have no interest in defending the strawman extremes people can take accented speech to, but the help file pretty clearly suggests that it's not just allowed but encouraged to do a little bit to dress up your speech.
There was no argument that slang/IC words were an element. The docs state, specifically, that you can and should add 'region specific words and slang.' If you are going to phrase it in a way that suggests that you can/should apostrophe soup, then I'll point out that that is not, at all, what it actually says. As AmandaGreathouse did.
Y'kin 'ave me 'postrophes when ye pry'em from me cold, dead fingers, mate.
I say fight fire with fire.
Whenever you see someone doing the apostrophe shuffle ... do the same thing but use some other random character from your keyboard.
I s%e you% apo%tro%he an% ra%se y%u a per%ent%ge sy%bol!
Quote from: maxid on June 11, 2011, 12:55:52 AM
There was no argument that slang/IC words were an element. The docs state, specifically, that you can and should add 'region specific words and slang.' If you are going to phrase it in a way that suggests that you can/should apostrophe soup, then I'll point out that that is not, at all, what it actually says. As AmandaGreathouse did.
The docs don't state that adding your own speech impediments, slurs, or mannerisms is verbotten, and I see nothing that says all non-slang/region-specific speech must be kept into say emotes or else the player will be flogged. This just seems like another case of people getting mad that other people aren't RPing the way they want.
Honestly I haven't seen people do it in forever. It was a fad in the 'rinth for awhile, and now it's just a running gag. Like Bynners and the Shield Wall.
and dwarfs speaking like this
Quote from: Celest on June 11, 2011, 03:45:09 AM
The docs don't state that adding your own speech impediments, slurs, or mannerisms is verbotten, and I see nothing that says all non-slang/region-specific speech must be kept into say emotes or else the player will be flogged. This just seems like another case of people getting mad that other people aren't RPing the way they want.
Those should be rarer than they are, and far more legible. If you want to go through the trouble of making something that unique, you should be willing to make it fun to interact with. Imagine you were deaf RL. Apostrophe salad, and strangely typed words are going to be near incomprehensible. Imagine you're ESL, again, it's going to throw you for a larger loop than it should. Especially since, for the most part, that person is actually talking -really close to what you easily understand ICly.-
My argument against every over letter being an apostrophe, and every third word being some crazy variation (I to Ah, for example) has been strawmanned into me not wanting any variation. And that's not the case. But keep it legible people! It's a text based game, not everyone is privy to the same background in english, and western media as you, and you are potentially making this game HARD on them, just to add some vague sort of flair to make your character omg special. There are a dozen ways to alter the way your character speaks, that don't render the actual words difficult to read. And the occasional apostrophe, for a cut off g, or what have you, at the end, is perfectly fine.
Quote from: Jdr on June 11, 2011, 04:37:17 AM
and dwarfs speaking like this
No dude ... all dwarves do speak like that. :)
I don't think I've ever been too egregious in my scattering of apostrophes, but yeah... I'm going to keep doing it. The coded accents simply aren't enough, and I'll be damned if I'm putting clunky command emoted accent descriptors in my tells every time I use them.
AGH made a pretty good point about the Way. However, I usually end up writing those things out in my PC's "voice" simply out of habit. I tend to do thinks in their voice too, to better keep myself in character. Speech patterns are extremely important to me because they make up the majority of my interactions through my character. For both my enjoyment and ease of play with others, I try not to make things too indecipherable.
Quote from: Zoltan on June 11, 2011, 09:42:42 AM
I don't think I've ever been too egregious in my scattering of apostrophes, but yeah... I'm going to keep doing it. The coded accents simply aren't enough, and I'll be damned if I'm putting clunky command emoted accent descriptors in my tells every time I use them.
AGH made a pretty good point about the Way. However, I usually end up writing those things out in my PC's "voice" simply out of habit. I tend to do thinks in their voice too, to better keep myself in character. Speech patterns are extremely important to me because they make up the majority of my interactions through my character. For both my enjoyment and ease of play with others, I try not to make things too indecipherable.
Fuck that Zoltan. You broke the game!
Turns out the apostrophe madness is all Zoltan's fault.
Speech emotes for speech variations leave very little room for interpretation. If my speech is a little off for my background, I want other PCs to notice that there's something off and leave the interpretation to them, not blatantly tell them that he sounds slightly rinthi-ish or more educated than he should be. I also don't want every Amos at the bar to notice just because they see the speech emotes. Especially not when they're not sitting at the same table or can't understand what he says.
Quote from: maxid on June 11, 2011, 06:04:33 AM
Imagine you're ESL, again, it's going to throw you for a larger loop than it should. Especially since, for the most part, that person is actually talking -really close to what you easily understand ICly.-
My argument against every over letter being an apostrophe, and every third word being some crazy variation (I to Ah, for example) has been strawmanned into me not wanting any variation. And that's not the case. But keep it legible people! It's a text based game, not everyone is privy to the same background in english, and western media as you, and you are potentially making this game HARD on them, just to add some vague sort of flair to make your character omg special.
Hmm. ESL people need a pretty good grasp of English to play an RPI in the first place. I tried dragging some friends into mudding, but it never worked out because of their English skills. If you're worried about them, you need to ban words like swarthy, aquiline and anything else that I've never come across outside of a MUD. I remember reading the main description of a character and still having no idea what the guy looked like.
Accents really aren't all that bad. My first character on an RPI was a SOI goblin. They butchered speech to an insane degree. I had to look at says twice because I had never seen this before. This wasn't a problem because I picked it up pretty fast. It later helped cover up my own grammar mistakes (I feel like I'm allowed to make some).
I'd be pretty happy if I encountered a dwarf that was consistently well spoken.
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 11, 2011, 12:28:38 PM
I'd be pretty happy if I encountered a dwarf that was consistently well spoken.
I have seen some dwarves that spoke like lovable retards in sirihish, but became very eloquent when speaking their own language. I thought that was kind of cool.
I use apostrophes when I want my character to sound Southern. He isn't going to the bar, he's goin'.
I had a few rinther characters that used apostrophes pretty extensively. If you don't like it, try to come up with an IC reason to kill my character and eliminate the problem. I ain't gettin' rid of my dang-nabbed 'postrophes, neither.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 12, 2011, 05:27:47 AM
I use apostrophes when I want my character to sound Southern. He isn't going to the bar, he's goin'.
I had a few rinther characters that used apostrophes pretty extensively. If you don't like it, try to come up with an IC reason to kill my character and eliminate the problem. I ain't gettin' rid of my dang-nabbed 'postrophes, neither.
So if I don't like an OOC aspect you forcibly inserted into the world, unnecessarily, since there is a coded 'southern accent' and there's logically no reason for Allanak you sound like the southern united states... I should ICly kill your character?
Just so I'm clear on what you're saying.
I'm pretty sure if you hate the way he talks ICly, it's IC to kill him for it. Just saying.
My dwarves are decently-spoken, it's other characters who get some weirdness thrown in. This may be because they're exposed to and influenced by a whole mismash of accents and get it all mixed up. :P But there's no 'in a mishmash of southern-rinthi-tribal-northern accent'.
Quote from: Saellyn on June 12, 2011, 08:02:09 AM
I'm pretty sure if you hate the way he talks ICly, it's IC to kill him for it. Just saying.
But if he's using commas and other words to indicate, as he said, sounding 'southern' in a manner that is reminiscent of the southern united states, then he is not acting IC. He is acting OOC and rping poorly. It feels wrong to invent IC justification to kill a person because they're acting out of character in the way they're rping. If a guy was talking about cellphones IC, I wouldn't go out of my way to invent a reason to PK, that's poor Rp, because it's clearly not actually an IC action.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 05:39:32 AM
Quote from: Reiloth on June 12, 2011, 05:27:47 AM
I use apostrophes when I want my character to sound Southern. He isn't going to the bar, he's goin'.
I had a few rinther characters that used apostrophes pretty extensively. If you don't like it, try to come up with an IC reason to kill my character and eliminate the problem. I ain't gettin' rid of my dang-nabbed 'postrophes, neither.
So if I don't like an OOC aspect you forcibly inserted into the world, unnecessarily, since there is a coded 'southern accent' and there's logically no reason for Allanak you sound like the southern united states... I should ICly kill your character?
Just so I'm clear on what you're saying.
If it really makes you go aggro to see people use apostrophes in their speech, i'm pretty sure you'll go out of your way to find an IC reason to hate said people.
Also -- You're welcome to try to kill any and all of my characters. If it's over some sort of glitch you have with the way they talk...Well, I hope you are playing some sort of sociopath, because that's weeeeird mannnn.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 06:20:55 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on June 12, 2011, 08:02:09 AM
I'm pretty sure if you hate the way he talks ICly, it's IC to kill him for it. Just saying.
But if he's using commas and other words to indicate, as he said, sounding 'southern' in a manner that is reminiscent of the southern united states, then he is not acting IC. He is acting OOC and rping poorly. It feels wrong to invent IC justification to kill a person because they're acting out of character in the way they're rping. If a guy was talking about cellphones IC, I wouldn't go out of my way to invent a reason to PK, that's poor Rp, because it's clearly not actually an IC action.
Also, my karma begs to disagree with your assessment of my RP. If you have a player complaint over the way people speak IG, file it; i'm sure Staff will file it under 'yawn'.
EDIT:
Also, people have been using apostrophes to modify their speech years before accents were even in place. It's an age old tradition, and an age-old joke (especially where the 'rinth is concerned) but I do not think emulating a real world accent in a believable fashion is OOC. Some people in Tuluk sound like unrefined country yokels, some sound like prim and proper nobles. Some people in the South are the same way. We the player can decide how our player talks, just as we can decide how they look.
Gee, I hope you can decide how your Player talks........
Quote from: X-D on June 12, 2011, 07:35:10 PM
Gee, I hope you can decide how your Player talks........
iknorite
Quote from: Reiloth on June 12, 2011, 06:50:56 PM
emulating a real world accent in a believable fashion is OOC.
Yes it is. There is no link between the accent of the southern united states and Allanak. Not in any way, shape, or form. I'm sorry you don't understand that, and I'm certain you'll keep doing it, but there is no actual logic behind it, and it breaks immersion when you do it the same way talking about a cellphone or other real-world thing would. It creates a link between the real world, and the game that shouldn't exist.
As to your 'You can decide how they sound, just like you can decide how they look' argument? You are not allowed to give your character tattoos from the real world (A confederate flag tattoo, to prove that they're a hick! or a snake with a boot crushing it proudly declaring DONT TREAD ON ME, or a neat oriental symbol or anything else) or real world sunglasses, or really anything that doesn't fit in theme, and is supported by the code.. so that pretty much makes your argument fall apart, when you draw in real world examples of why you chose that accent.
You're objectively wrong in your assessment, but there's nothing I can do to change your mind since you've dug in your heels (and so have I, I'll admit.) And the 'omg i have karma' argument is silly, you can be an otherwise good Rper, with a few flaws and still receive karma. And there is -always- room for improvement, in a person's Rp. I apologize that you're so offended that I tried to point out why what you were doing is wrong, but I enjoy debate and discussion. You can, of course, continue Rping that way, it's your character. But, it doesn't really fit in the world.
Really dude? Hah. People have been emulating southern accents, IG, for a long ass time. That's a pretty wicked straw man argument you got there, though.
There was no straw man there. I know it's popular to call everything a strawman in an attempt to discredit it, but that wasn't one Try again if you want, there is likely a logical fallacy there, but it isn't the strawman.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 07:43:49 PM
You're objectively wrong in your assessment...
Objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
I find it amusing that you would argue objectivity when you have so clearly displayed that you are strongly influenced by your personal feelings and interpretations on the matter.
It would seem that what you state is logically fallacious is actually supported by more of us than those who would denounce it. And, while it seems to break -your- immersion, it enhances mine and obviously many others.
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 12, 2011, 08:22:41 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 07:43:49 PM
You're objectively wrong in your assessment...
Objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
I find it amusing that you would argue objectivity when you have so clearly displayed that you are strongly influenced by your personal feelings and interpretations on the matter.
It would seem that what you state is logically fallacious is actually supported by more of us than those who would denounce it. And, while it seems to break -your- immersion, it enhances mine and obviously many others.
Fact: Allanak and the southern united states have nothing in common, in terms of how accents should have developed, or how they sound.
Fact: He stated that he uses the accent of the southern united states to make his characters sound southern
Do you understand how he is objectively (factually) wrong?
I just hate it when I actually have to spend precious seconds reading over what someone said three or four times due to practically every vowel and 'g' having been replaced by an apostrophe.
Just start typing in Hebrew.
QuoteFact: Allanak and the southern united states have nothing in common, in terms of how accents should have developed, or how they sound.
Nowhere does any documentation state that this is fact. Nowhere can I find comment on it one way or the other. Therefore, it is not fact because it cannot be proven.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 08:26:45 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 12, 2011, 08:22:41 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 07:43:49 PM
You're objectively wrong in your assessment...
Objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
I find it amusing that you would argue objectivity when you have so clearly displayed that you are strongly influenced by your personal feelings and interpretations on the matter.
It would seem that what you state is logically fallacious is actually supported by more of us than those who would denounce it. And, while it seems to break -your- immersion, it enhances mine and obviously many others.
Fact: Allanak and the southern united states have nothing in common, in terms of how accents should have developed, or how they sound.
Fact: He stated that he uses the accent of the southern united states to make his characters sound southern
Do you understand how he is objectively (factually) wrong?
Actually, what he said was:
Quote from: Reiloth on June 12, 2011, 05:27:47 AM
I use apostrophes when I want my character to sound Southern. He isn't going to the bar, he's goin'.
There was no specific reference to the Southern US. You decided that there was.
Also, both Allanak and the Southern US have been influenced by long periods of wide-spread lack of education due (in part) to slavery.
I would say that both of your "facts" are speculative.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 12, 2011, 08:32:35 PM
I just hate it when I actually have to spend precious seconds reading over what someone said three or four times due to practically every vowel and 'g' having been replaced by an apostrophe.
^^^ This actually illustrates the problem we began discussing. When text is so butchered with apostrophes that it becomes illegible and unpronounceable, it becomes an exercise in obfuscation.
I definitely roll up some bumpkin talkin hillbillies from the farming villages (RIP Menos!)
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 08:34:26 PM
QuoteFact: Allanak and the southern united states have nothing in common, in terms of how accents should have developed, or how they sound.
Nowhere does any documentation state that this is fact. Nowhere can I find comment on it one way or the other. Therefore, it is not fact because it cannot be proven.
It doesn't state there aren't any rocket boots/motorbikes/solid gold trees either
Are you guys seriously arguing about this? Seriously? Let them roleplay their character's dialogue however they see fit.
If their character is unintelligible on an OOC level, then yes, it's annoying as sin, but it's not technically bad roleplay.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 12, 2011, 08:38:07 PM
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 08:34:26 PM
QuoteFact: Allanak and the southern united states have nothing in common, in terms of how accents should have developed, or how they sound.
Nowhere does any documentation state that this is fact. Nowhere can I find comment on it one way or the other. Therefore, it is not fact because it cannot be proven.
It doesn't state there aren't any rocket boots/motorbikes/solid gold trees either
I can log into the game and my pc -can- hear pcs that speak this way. As of yet, I haven't seen any rocket boots/motorcycles and the FUCKING SOLID GOLD TREE IS MINE DAMMIT!
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 12, 2011, 08:36:50 PM
Actually, what he said was:
Quote from: Reiloth on June 12, 2011, 05:27:47 AM
I use apostrophes when I want my character to sound Southern. He isn't going to the bar, he's goin'.
There was no specific reference to the Southern US. You decided that there was.
Also, both Allanak and the Southern US have been influenced by long periods of wide-spread lack of education due (in part) to slavery.
I would say that both of your "facts" are speculative.
I understand you're being purposefully obtuse, to further your argument, but when he claims to use things like goin', that are obviously influenced by the southern united states, to sound 'Southern', then it's pretty clear as to his actual intent.
Also: Central Africa has dealt with issues of slavery, widespread famine, and lack of education. They sound nothing like the united states. Dozens of places in the real world have suffered from the issues you listed, in an attempt to blindly flail your way into a valid point, and none of them sound all that similar. So, please do try again.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 12, 2011, 08:32:35 PM
I just hate it when I actually have to spend precious seconds reading over what someone said three or four times due to practically every vowel and 'g' having been replaced by an apostrophe.
This is a symptom of the problem. This is the outcome of your silliness. To fix the illegibility, you must fix people's perceptions that removing half the word is somehow 'good Rp.' Do you understand?
Quote from: Delirium on June 12, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Are you guys seriously arguing about this? Seriously? Let them roleplay their character's dialogue however they see fit.
If their character is unintelligible on an OOC level, then yes, it's annoying as sin, but it's not technically bad roleplay.
This is how I see it too. It might be annoying if done poorly but there's nothing wrong with it from a roleplaying perspective.
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 08:42:41 PM
Quote from: Delirium on June 12, 2011, 08:41:03 PM
Are you guys seriously arguing about this? Seriously? Let them roleplay their character's dialogue however they see fit.
If their character is unintelligible on an OOC level, then yes, it's annoying as sin, but it's not technically bad roleplay.
This is how I see it too. It might be annoying if done poorly but there's nothing wrong with it from a roleplaying perspective.
Except that it's entirely influenced by RL, rather than IC, and that it's 100% redundant you mean?
The entire game is influenced by real life in one way or another. I suppose sirihish should be written up as a complete language unlike english and the same for the other languages in the game as well. And then we should all have to learn each of those new languages in order to play the game?
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 08:50:01 PM
The entire game is influenced by real life in one way or another. I suppose sirihish should be written up as a complete language unlike english and the same for the other languages in the game as well. And then we should all have to learn each of those new languages in order to play the game?
Not at all. The code tells you that they're speaking sirihish quite neatly. Just like you shouldn't have to make up a proper accent to go with this alien language, that we all need to learn and type in in order to play the game. Because the code tells you which accent they're using quite neatly.
Thank you for helping my point.
I disagree. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong to do.
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 08:59:47 PM
I disagree. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong to do.
That's not the reason I'm saying it is wrong. Please reread, for my many and well explained reasons as to why it is illogical and unnecessary. That I also dislike it is only a side facet.
Oh I read them, I still disagree with you on the subject. I think that when people do it where others can understand what they're saying out of character, it adds a little flavor to the game. Because the game says that they said "in southern-accented sirihish" doesn't mean that every single character that has that attached to their speech sounds exactly the same. There's no code for "lazy, southern-accented sirihish" or "improper southern-accented sirihish" It doesn't mean that they don't exist and that players can't roleplay within the gray area to give their pc unique speech patterns.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 08:42:19 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on June 12, 2011, 08:36:50 PM
Actually, what he said was:
Quote from: Reiloth on June 12, 2011, 05:27:47 AM
I use apostrophes when I want my character to sound Southern. He isn't going to the bar, he's goin'.
There was no specific reference to the Southern US. You decided that there was.
Also, both Allanak and the Southern US have been influenced by long periods of wide-spread lack of education due (in part) to slavery.
I would say that both of your "facts" are speculative.
I understand you're being purposefully obtuse, to further your argument, but when he claims to use things like goin', that are obviously influenced by the southern united states, to sound 'Southern', then it's pretty clear as to his actual intent.
Also: Central Africa has dealt with issues of slavery, widespread famine, and lack of education. They sound nothing like the united states. Dozens of places in the real world have suffered from the issues you listed, in an attempt to blindly flail your way into a valid point, and none of them sound all that similar. So, please do try again.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 12, 2011, 08:32:35 PM
I just hate it when I actually have to spend precious seconds reading over what someone said three or four times due to practically every vowel and 'g' having been replaced by an apostrophe.
This is a symptom of the problem. This is the outcome of your silliness. To fix the illegibility, you must fix people's perceptions that removing half the word is somehow 'good Rp.' Do you understand?
You hear a Southern US accent. You are reading into other people's statements to perceive what you want. You are a finger-pointer who is blaming other people's choices on your "break in immersion".
Trying to undermine my logical assertions by declaring me "purposefully obtuse" and "blindly flailing" is a weak attempt to distract from the gaps present in your own statements. If you honestly believe that myself and others are groping in the dark in hopes of coming up with valid statements, then you clearly haven't really been reading the posts in this thread. Take some deep breaths and try to back away from the perspective you have been clinging to for all these posts.
I would have ignored this thread quite a while ago, mainly due to the vehemently hostile attitude that you have presented, except that it was a reply to my post that began your angry ranting.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 09:01:26 PM
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 08:59:47 PM
I disagree. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong to do.
That's not the reason I'm saying it is wrong. Please reread, for my many and well explained reasons as to why it is illogical and unnecessary. That I also dislike it is only a side facet.
I would add, if your reasons were well explained and many, why do you think that so many people feel inclined to disagree with you? True logic tends to be rather irrefutable.
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 09:03:34 PM
Oh I read them, I still disagree with you on the subject.
I don't care if you disagree. I care if you misstate my arguments as 'me disliking it.' When that is the least of the reasons that people should avoid typing like idiots.
edit: Bilanthri - You have yet to refute my logic. When you do, you will have a point. If the dropping of the g, and words like 'gonna' or 'fixin' etc. aren't meant to identify with a southern united states accent, despite all of them directly relating and conforming to one, then where did they come from? And, why do people feel the need to invent an accent unsupported by the code/documentation? I still have yet to see an answer to the fact that accents, like languages, are coded into the game except 'BUT I WANT TO!!!!'
I'm not. I believe that if you didn't personally dislike it so much you wouldn't be grasping at straws to argue against it. I don't believe you are being truly honest with yourself about the matter.
Just in case you missed my edit I was adding to a previous post while you were also posting:
QuoteBecause the game says that they said "in southern-accented sirihish" doesn't mean that every single character that has that attached to their speech sounds exactly the same. There's no code for "lazy, southern-accented sirihish" or "improper southern-accented sirihish" It doesn't mean that they don't exist and that players can't roleplay within the gray area to give their pc unique speech patterns.
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 09:13:50 PM
Just in case you missed my edit I was adding to a previous post while you were also posting:
QuoteBecause the game says that they said "in southern-accented sirihish" doesn't mean that every single character that has that attached to their speech sounds exactly the same. There's no code for "lazy, southern-accented sirihish" or "improper southern-accented sirihish" It doesn't mean that they don't exist and that players can't roleplay within the gray area to give their pc unique speech patterns.
There is code to add and support this.
edit: And you're putting the cart before the horse. I dislike it because it is unnecessary, and illogical. My reasoning makes me dislike it. I know it'd be convenient if I was just a hatemonger, attacking something for no real reason, but I'm not. The reasonings I've stated make me annoyed by it.
There are a multitude of options that players can use to express this. You just happen not to like one of them. :P
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 09:15:25 PM
There are a multitude of options that players can use to express this. You just happen not to like the one that makes the least amount of sense, is the most disruptive, and lacks any standardization or documentation
FTFY
If someone's word selection or use of odd punctuation seems to be in conflict with the game rules, file a complaint with staff.
Otherwise, stop trying to enforce your own vision of what is "right" on other players' RP choices. Nonproductive and not fulfilling.
Quote from: Seeker on June 12, 2011, 09:19:07 PM
If someone's word selection or use of odd punctuation seems to be in conflict with the game rules, file a complaint with staff.
Otherwise, stop trying to enforce your own vision of what is "right" on other players' RP choices. Nonproductive and not fulfilling.
I, too, hate people telling others what to do. :irony:
I don't hear 'I'mma goin' to ah Gaj, Sarge' as American Southern accent, but as a poor, unrefined way of speaking common among the lower classes in the Known.
I'm sorry if it breaks your immersion, but I think you are wrong on this one, maxid.
Just my opinion.
Quote from: Seeker on June 12, 2011, 09:19:07 PM
If someone's word selection or use of odd punctuation seems to be in conflict with the game rules, file a complaint with staff.
Otherwise, stop trying to enforce your own vision of what is "right" on other players' RP choices. Nonproductive and not fulfilling.
Agreed. Nothing is going accomplished by this argument. It's one of those areas where many people have many different "visions" on how it should be and what's right and what's wrong. It's all gray area that we're allowed to decide how we want to roleplay within and personally, I'm fine with that.
Quote from: BleakOne on June 12, 2011, 09:22:44 PM
I don't hear 'I'mma goin' to ah Gaj, Sarge' as American Southern accent, but as a poor, unrefined way of speaking common among the lower classes in the Known.
I'm sorry if it breaks your immersion, but I think you are wrong on this one, maxid.
Just my opinion.
If this did not read as more or less directly out of Huckleberry Finn, you'd have a point. I'm sorry, but I'm not. It is strongly, and obviously influenced by the American southern accent. There is no documentation that says that the underclass speaks that way, it's pretty much pulled out of nowhere, and tied to perceptions of the american southern accent RL. IF there was ANY documentation to support you? I'd back off some. But there's not. You're just drawing in RL, unthinkingly.
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: Seeker on June 12, 2011, 09:19:07 PM
If someone's word selection or use of odd punctuation seems to be in conflict with the game rules, file a complaint with staff.
Otherwise, stop trying to enforce your own vision of what is "right" on other players' RP choices. Nonproductive and not fulfilling.
Agreed. Nothing is going accomplished by this argument. It's one of those areas where many people have many different "visions" on how it should be and what's right and what's wrong. It's all gray area that we're allowed to decide how we want to roleplay within and personally, I'm fine with that.
It's fine, you can Rp it that way, I've said that a few times. But it is demonstrably incorrect.
I'm not an American, and am not familiar enough with said southern drawl to unthinkingly make my characters live it. It's just an uneducated, slang-heavy way of speaking which happens to sound something like uneducated, slang-heavy ways of speaking on Earth, if you want it to.
This thread got silly while I was asleep. :P
Quote from: musashi on June 12, 2011, 09:33:27 PM
This thread got silly while I was asleep. :P
Whoops... should probably stop aiding in the derail. Sorry.
QuoteCreating a Character
The first thing to do, before you ever start playing your character, is put a little thought into him/her. Take a few minutes and think about your character's general attitude and outlook on life. Does she love/hate a specific thing or group? Is he friendly or withdrawn? A loner, leader, or follower? Stubborn or easily swayed? Opinionated or open minded? You might also think up some habits, common phrases, accents, other other common mannerisms of your character, and set up EMOTE or PEMOTE aliases for them.
The only thing in the docs I can find regarding the issue and it clearly supports players doing this.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 09:28:23 PM
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: Seeker on June 12, 2011, 09:19:07 PM
If someone's word selection or use of odd punctuation seems to be in conflict with the game rules, file a complaint with staff.
Otherwise, stop trying to enforce your own vision of what is "right" on other players' RP choices. Nonproductive and not fulfilling.
Agreed. Nothing is going accomplished by this argument. It's one of those areas where many people have many different "visions" on how it should be and what's right and what's wrong. It's all gray area that we're allowed to decide how we want to roleplay within and personally, I'm fine with that.
It's fine, you can Rp it that way, I've said that a few times. But it is demonstrably incorrect in my opinion.
FTFY
This thread is so hypocritical - for the tl:drers...
Don't use big words with lots of syllables! It makes you sound too intelligent!
Don't speak like a bumpkin! It makes you sound too American!
What's next, are you going to tell me I can't say 'eh' in game? Maybe we should stop writing in the english language altogether... ::)
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 09:35:47 PM
QuoteCreating a Character
The first thing to do, before you ever start playing your character, is put a little thought into him/her. Take a few minutes and think about your character's general attitude and outlook on life. Does she love/hate a specific thing or group? Is he friendly or withdrawn? A loner, leader, or follower? Stubborn or easily swayed? Opinionated or open minded? You might also think up some habits, common phrases, accents, other other common mannerisms of your character, and set up EMOTE or PEMOTE aliases for them.
Documentation supports me. Try again.
Good ways to demonstrate you accent: Word choice, say (in a thick, educated manner) blah blah
Bad ways to demonstrate your accent: Pull, out of your ass, a nonstandard series of apostrophes and changed words, that could mean something different to many different players, thus making it impossible to tell whether you're attempting to portray a bumpkin, a person with brain damage, or someone from another city state with a modified accent.
Edit: I'm done. You're not going to convince me that your view is the right one and all you're doing is irritating me.
Somethin' 'ells me we'r gunn be seein' a lot mer' folk talkin' wit' bad 'cents n-game. ;)
Quote from: Rhyden on June 12, 2011, 09:44:32 PM
Somethin' 'ells me we'r gunn be seein' a lot mer' folk talkin' wit' bad 'cents n-game. ;)
Count on it.
If every time someone spoke, I was treated to the same, generic (in a thick, uneducated accent) I would eventually want to reach through the screen and strangle them, so it sounds as if we're at an impasse.
Accents have been typed in the game for years. It is no different than using *these* for emphasis, which often occurs. It sounds like a southern hick accent because southern hicks are *uneducated and can't speak well* (which I feel comfortable saying, having grown up there). It also sounds like an illinois hick accent, or pretty much any "middle of fucking nowhere" accent where the general population is unintelligent and possibly inbred.
Like Menos.
This whole, "no, YOU'RE wrong" argument is not going to go anywhere at any point. Maybe let it go.
Sure. I said more than a few times that people are free to do whatever. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't logically make a whole lot of sense to do it their way, and it's unsupported by the documentation.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 09:28:23 PM
Quote from: Bacon on June 12, 2011, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: Seeker on June 12, 2011, 09:19:07 PM
If someone's word selection or use of odd punctuation seems to be in conflict with the game rules, file a complaint with staff.
Otherwise, stop trying to enforce your own vision of what is "right" on other players' RP choices. Nonproductive and not fulfilling.
Agreed. Nothing is going accomplished by this argument. It's one of those areas where many people have many different "visions" on how it should be and what's right and what's wrong. It's all gray area that we're allowed to decide how we want to roleplay within and personally, I'm fine with that.
It's fine, you can Rp it that way, I've said that a few times. But it is demonstrably incorrect.
At the risk of feeding the trolls, I'll bite:
Maxid, how is allowing the player's the ability to select odd words or use unconventional punctuation for RP reasons "demonstrably wrong", please? Those were my only claims.
*edit to fix screwed up quoting boxes
Please keep things nice and civil and don't argue the same point over and over and over again to get that post count +. There's no need for getting snarky and such.
Quote from: Seeker on June 12, 2011, 09:55:06 PM
At the risk of feeding the trolls, I'll bite:
Maxid, how is allowing the player's the ability to select odd words or use unconventional punctuation for RP reasons "demonstrably wrong", please? Those were my only claims.
I'm not a troll, sorry to disappoint.
An odd word is fine. A bit of unconventional punctuation is cool. The issue is that when every other person t'lk l'ke th's, it becomes silly and inconsistent. There is no way to tell if the person is uneducated, mentally retarded, is missing part of their tongue, is secretly a 'rinthi, grew up with a speech impediment, is having an allergic reaction, or has their mouth full.
People are legitimately strawmanning my argument (unlike the failed call out earlier) into my not wanting any uniqueness to speech. I'm disagreeing with the assessment that vomiting apostrophes into the ether is, in any way, a valid method of characterization.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 10:03:20 PM
An odd word is fine. A bit of unconventional punctuation is cool.
This statement is completely at odds with your previous claim that such use was "demonstrably wrong." You have completely altered your position and contradicted your own assertions.
QuoteI'm disagreeing with the assessment that vomiting apostrophes into the ether is, in any way, a valid method of characterization.
I read the entire thread before I responded. No one has proposed or defended this point of view. Assuming they had, however, why is the unorthodox use of apostrophes invalid, in any way, as a tool for speech characterization?
Quote from: Seeker on June 12, 2011, 10:36:28 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 10:03:20 PM
An odd word is fine. A bit of unconventional punctuation is cool.
This statement is completely at odds with your previous claim that such use was "demonstrably wrong." You have completely altered your position and contradicted your own assertions.
QuoteI'm disagreeing with the assessment that vomiting apostrophes into the ether is, in any way, a valid method of characterization.
I read the entire thread before I responded. No one has proposed or defended this point of view. Assuming they had, however, why is the unorthodox use of apostrophes invalid, in any way, as a tool for speech characterization?
Odd words have never been mentioned, and unconventional . And most of my argument has been against people claiming that we should all just talk like southern united states country folk more or less as a total rip off. I said that them claiming it is valid and documented is objectively wrong. Because it is.
If you want to wholesale copy an RL regional dialect, you're Rping poorly. If you want to every once in a while use a strange word (Obsequitous!) or use them wrong, cool. If you want to have strange sentence breaks where they stop to think or confuse themselves? Awesome that'd be pretty cool to see I think.
But to claim you're adding an accent to a character by cutting out half the vowels is not legitimate. Your character already has an accent, and in a city with a lower population than a single borough in New York, that has been crammed together for thousands of years, you're going to sound like the other people who live there.
You're over-generalizing about accents, man. While there is a generalizable "southern" dialect, there are countless subdivisions of it, and each is indicative of a unique subculture, to those who would recognize it.
The use of the additional American "hick" accent punctuation or perhaps British Cockney grammar/punctuation is indicative of the player's desire to portray a member of a different, less polished subculture.
Thus, "southern-acented sirihish" is indicative of a general location. The player's "custom" punctuation is indicative of a subset of the southern accent. Imagine it as uncoded "trader-southern" or "alley-southern" or "noble-southern."
This isn't a difficult thing for most of us to understand.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 10:47:13 PM
most of my argument has been against people claiming that we should all just talk like southern united states country folk more or less as a total rip off. I said that them claiming it is valid and documented is objectively wrong. Because it is.
No one ever claimed the above position you are trying vigorously to defeat. This is an imaginary target.
Most people seem to agree that garbling text so much that it is unintelligible is probably a mistake and doesn't help with characterization. Your claims just leave me confused. Please help?
#1:
QuoteBut to claim you're adding an accent to a character by cutting out half the vowels is not legitimate.
Why is it illegitimate to drop vowels in an attempt to imitate a spoken accent? It is not uncommon in English literature. Why would you find it illegitimate here?
and finally #2, you never addressed
Quote from: Seeker
Quote from: maxidI'm disagreeing with the assessment that vomiting apostrophes into the ether is, in any way, a valid method of characterization.
... why is the unorthodox use of apostrophes invalid, in any way, as a tool for speech characterization?
What Synth said.
Also, if a character's speech happens to be borderline-illiterate, you can assume they're incomprehensible.
I think everyone will enjoy arm more if they appreciate the unique variety (be it speech or emotes or whatever) brought to the table by our players.
My chime for tonight.
Maxid Is doing a good job arguing a point I agree with.
I see many people seem to be missing the point altogether and are arguing some other point in which I'm not even sure of.
I think I'm going to try though.
Alright, If I type something with my PC, the CODE tells you what language and accent he is using.
So, The tall bearded man tells you in southern accented sirihish, "Hello chum, the weather seems quite foul today."
See, southern accented Sirihish.
Now, What if I type the tall bearded man tells you in southern accented sirihish, "H'llo chum, th' w'thr s'ms quit' foul today."
So alright, again, the code says that I'm speaking in southern accented sirihish, but for some odd reason I decided to make up my own accent/manner of talking. Fine, but Which one is REALLY southern accented Sirihish, Like highlander, There can be only one. And if both are, because code says so, then your just making your PC sound like an idiot and hard for the other PLAYERS to understand. it IS redundant because the code already says language and accent, It is also redundant because you can....GASP....use speaking emotes.
The tall bearded man says, in southern accented sirihish, his words oddly clipped, "Hello chum, the weather seems quite foul today."
Look at that, Anybody can read it without having to study it for 10 minutes AND you explained how he was speaking in southern accented sirihish.
Course, If you actually intend for your PC to sound like a retard with half his tongue cut off...Well, by all means, go for it...If you think you are being clever and adding something to the game by making up an accent...Well, to that, you fail in epic manner.
Quote from: X-D on June 13, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
If you think you are being clever and adding something to the game by making up an accent...Well, to that, you fail in epic manner.
Keep it civil.
That troll almost got a very UNcivil response.
I agree that regional accents are best left to the code.
As to big words versus 'street talk,' I think that if your PC is using unusual advanced speech it's reasonable to assume she's more educated than average, and vice versa. Given that players have varying degrees of literacy, however, and not everyone is primarily an English speaker, I wouldn't focus too much on it one way or the other.
There's more to a character's speech than code, just as there's more to a character than his skill sheet.
I think it's pretty reasonable to accept that there might be non-coded sub-dialects of southern-accented sirihish that people can choose to characterize, really, however the fuck they want, because this is in part a player-created game. Furthermore, as has been stated repeatedly, there is stylistic content and there is literal content, and each is important to generating complete characterization.
You don't have to like it, but copping to "it ain't coded!" is uh...just plain dumb.
That being said, there are pretty much accepted ways of apostrophizing English, and wantonly abandoning vowels is not one of them.
By X-D's logic though, emoting in combat is bad RPing because the code is telling you what happens, same for barfights, or when eating... or anything handled codedly really.
I think accusing people of typing an apostrophe every other letter is kind of mis-characterizing the majority of the pbase's take on accents. Sure, the sounds that a lot of people are going for could be sort of demonstrated with just word choice and cadence, but what's the big deal about dropping some g's and contracting things? If someone's incomprehensible, write in a player complaint.
1) "Hello chum, the weather seems quite foul today."
2) "H'llo chum, th' w'thr s'ms quit' foul today."
3) "'ello chum, da wedder seems quite foul taday."
Nobody is arguing for #2! Apostrophe salad/pincushion/wordvomit be damned!
#3 is talking in a subset accent of whatever accent the code grants them. Is this so bad?
Complain about my accent IG (or file a player complaint). I'll leave it at that!
Quote from: Synthesis on June 13, 2011, 12:27:16 AM
The use of the additional American "hick" accent punctuation or perhaps British Cockney grammar/punctuation is indicative of the player's desire to portray a member of a different, less polished subculture.
The problem you run into here has been stated, on this page even. There is no standardization. A mock cockney, and a mock hick accent could be used by two people, in the same conversation, who are coded from the exact same IC place (say, Menos, for arguments sake.) And, in that same conversation, a third person could be using a mock hick accent to portray the fact that their character has a learning disability, and a fourth could be using the mock hick accent because they're actually a secret Northern spy who JUST branched accent – southern. There are no rules, or documentation to help you know which is which, so it is a failed method of portraying something, because it actually adds nothing identifiable to the scene, it becomes a mishmash of people desperate to stand out, and anyone watching would think persons 1, 3, and 4 were from Menos, and person 2 was from elsewhere, when that is entirely wrong.
It's not that I don't understand that it's an attempt at an uncoded trader, noble, alley, etc. southern accent, it's that there's no way to tell that because they're spasming violently at the ' key they mean to be portraying a trader, noble, or alley accent.
Quote from: Seeker
Quote from: maxidI'm disagreeing with the assessment that vomiting apostrophes into the ether is, in any way, a valid method of characterization.
... why is the unorthodox use of apostrophes invalid, in any way, as a tool for speech characterization?
I once asked my teacher, in 10th grade, why I couldn't write my story with accents like Mark Twain did. Her response was simple, and to the point 'Because you are not Mark Twain.' The attempted utilization of accents in creative writing is, in fact, frowned upon pretty severely by the scholastic community, unless you have the writing chops, as it were, to be able to ignore convention (You don't. This is not me being mean, this is my stating a fact. You are not the next great American (or wherever) novelist.) The fact that there is a convention to defy is one of the reasons that writers like Twain, who do accents –well- and use them to serve a purpose, are so well received, they shake it up. I understand your desire to be different and unique, I do. I even understand your desire to add to your character, hell I want to add to MY characters. But the way you are doing it doesn't actually add anything. I know you've dug in your heels, and you refuse to see it, but the method you are using to add characterization is indecipherable, without standardization being made in a helpfile (southern hick = Menos/allanaki villages, cockney = lower class Tuluk, etc.) with a full breakdown of how to do that sub-accent. And that is way, way, way too much work, and beyond the writing skill of the entire Armageddon playerbase. I don't mean that rudely, but this method of adding accents is one that must be used carefully and with purpose, if it is to have any impact at all.
QuoteBy X-D's logic though, emoting in combat is bad RPing because the code is telling you what happens, same for barfights, or when eating... or anything handled codedly really.
Really? I find that most the code is pretty open ended.
And your statement is approaching silly anyway, I never said anything was bad RP first of all, Your words not mine.
As to barfights and combat, Hopefully you are not emoting against the code, That would be bad RP IMO, but explaining how the coded action happened is a good thing and what I see most doing. And your logic is comparing apples to Hand grenades, Sure, they are both round...
QuoteI think accusing people of typing an apostrophe every other letter is kind of mis-characterizing the majority of the pbase's take on accents. Sure, the sounds that a lot of people are going for could be sort of demonstrated with just word choice and cadence, but what's the big deal about dropping some g's and contracting things? If someone's incomprehensible, write in a player complaint.
First, Player complaints are lame IMO, and the fact that people want to use them for every little thing even more so.
And what exactly would the complaint be? They are not breaking any rules that I know of.
Also, the people that do it don't just drop a few Gs, they drop them all and replace all Os with AH and add in ' for every missing letter along with conjoining words with them. I don't care if your PC is too lazy to completely sound out every word and drops the G on anything with ING, Small and simple speech quirks are not the same as trying to come up with a new accent combined with what seems to be a major speech impediment.
As to the rest, Hey, if you wanna do it, fine, but I will simply squelch your PC client side.
PS, #3 is almost as bad...mostly for the made up nonsense word, If I saw "wedder" (or any number of other made up words) without the translation post above it, I'd be like, "What the fuck is a wedder?" Tell dude What the fuck is a wedder?"
Actually, I've done that dozens of times IG, till I figure out they are making up words and ignore them.
Quote from: Adventures of Huckleberry Fin, chapter 8
"Strawberries and such truck," I says. "Is that
what you live on?"
"I couldn' git nuffn else," he says.
"Why, how long you been on the island, Jim?"
"I come heah de night arter you's killed."
"What, all that time?"
"Yes -- indeedy."
"And ain't you had nothing but that kind of
rubbage to eat?"
"No, sah -- nuffn else."
"Well, you must be most starved, ain't you?"
"I reck'n I could eat a hoss. I think I could.
How long you ben on de islan'?"
"Since the night I got killed."
Speaking from my experience, insofar as portraying an accent, I'd say we've got players that aren't too far off from this level.
Not that it even matters. Nobody is born as a perfect roleplayer, writer, or anything.
But for one thing...Twain did not make the accent up.
Quote from: X-D on June 13, 2011, 03:09:47 AM
But for one thing...Twain did not make the accent up.
And Twain's accent is easily identifiable as representing a specific place/location/mannerism. Arm "accents" are not.
Quote from: X-D on June 13, 2011, 02:59:22 AM
QuoteBy X-D's logic though, emoting in combat is bad RPing because the code is telling you what happens, same for barfights, or when eating... or anything handled codedly really.
Really? I find that most the code is pretty open ended.
And your statement is approaching silly anyway, I never said anything was bad RP first of all, Your words not mine.
As to barfights and combat, Hopefully you are not emoting against the code, That would be bad RP IMO, but explaining how the coded action happened is a good thing and what I see most doing. And your logic is comparing apples to Hand grenades, Sure, they are both round...
So it is ok to emote how you are hitting the tall muscular man in the neck for unspeakable damage (which is codedly self-explaining), but not to spell out how the rinthi accent (which, in the same way, codedly explains itself) you have sounds?
As far as not saying its bad RP, well, you did say it was epically failing, which I thought was pretty similar to 'not good RP'.
As long as I can still read the fucking sentence then it's not a problem.
Like I said, the whole apostrophe soup thing happened for just a little while in the 'rinth (see what I did there?) and it got laughed at on the boards so much that it became like a running gag, and the people doing it probably got embarrassed and stopped because I've never seen another PC go crazy with the apostrophes like that since.
Writing "going to" as "gonna" or "doing" as "doin'" isn't the end of the world. Most people, even ESL folks ... know about gonna and they can fill in the g at the end on their own.
I just wanted to add that I don't actually do those sorts of accents myself with my characters, I just find it a little annoying when folks complain about that sort of stuff. If you can't understand them, ICly tell them that or put in a complaint, otherwise just deal with it.
Now if only we could make fun of dwarves enough to get them to start using capital letters and punctuation. ::)
Quote from: musashi on June 13, 2011, 04:10:28 AM
Now if only we could make fun of dwarves enough to get them to start using capital letters and punctuation. ::)
Uh, it's character development. that's how dwarfs talk.
The rampant mis-spellings, lack of punctuation, turning "I' into "Ah" and "and" into "anna" with things of that nature, and rampant disregard for subjective emoting and the like is also part of character development for dwarves, if you didn't know.
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 13, 2011, 06:30:51 AM
The rampant mis-spellings, lack of punctuation, turning "I' into "Ah" and "and" into "anna" with things of that nature, and rampant disregard for subjective emoting and the like is also part of character development for dwarves, if you didn't know.
Zoooooooooooooooooom
Unless you were also being sarcastic, in which case that zoom is for me.
Does anyone here arguing this whole "accent" point really think you're going to change anyone's mind?
I mean, reeeeaaaaaalllly?
Alot of this is just getting ridiculous.
I also see many posts arguing against typing out one's character's accent use examples like this:
"H' 'm l'w-cl'ss, ' 's' 'p'str'ph''s t' r'pl'c' 'v'r' v'wls."
In all my time of playing Arm, I can't say I've ever seen it get so bad I couldn't understand what was being said.
Really though, if you can't understand what another character's saying, if it's so unbearable that you just can't figure it out, tell 'em to lose the mush mouth and speak the highlord's Sirihish-- play it out like your character would react.
This is a role-playing game, after all.
Qzzbrl, we have threads on how Zalanthans wipe after taking a shit. It's the GDB, what did you expect? Any silly minutia is up for scrutiny.
Quote from: maxid on June 13, 2011, 06:59:27 AM
Qzzbrl, we have threads on how Zalanthans wipe after taking a shit. It's the GDB, what did you expect? Any silly minutia is up for scrutiny.
O rite....
Carry on then.
Quote from: Rhyden on June 12, 2011, 09:44:32 PM
Somethin' 'ells me we'r gunn be seein' a lot mer' folk talkin' wit' bad 'cents n-game. ;)
Oh yikes!
I love the various accents that people use in game, but I too want to be able to decipher them without my decoder ring.
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 13, 2011, 06:30:51 AM
The rampant mis-spellings, lack of punctuation, turning "I' into "Ah" and "and" into "anna" with things of that nature, and rampant disregard for subjective emoting and the like is also part of character development for dwarves, if you didn't know.
I thought you were talking about a certain tribe of elves up until the end there :P
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 09:06:38 PM
If the dropping of the g, and words like 'gonna' or 'fixin' etc. aren't meant to identify with a southern united states accent, despite all of them directly relating and conforming to one, then where did they come from?
It's actually very common in other English-speaking nations to not annunciate every syllable clearly and precisely, and have certain 'twangs' on some sounds. If you want to show this through talking (in a unarticulated, lazy slur) EVERY time your character speaks, go for your life. Myself, I find it less clunky and more evocative to just show it through word pattern sometimes. If that breaks your immersion and causes you to pigeon-hole me as a bad roleplayer, excuse me if I don't give a shi'.
Also, i'd be very hesitant about dumbing down for ESL speakers playing the game. In my experience , and especially with those that are playing a game like Arm, they probably have a better grasp of the English language than some native speakers.
Quote from: maxid on June 12, 2011, 09:06:38 PM
And, why do people feel the need to invent an accent unsupported by the code/documentation? I still have yet to see an answer to the fact that accents, like languages, are coded into the game except 'BUT I WANT TO!!!!'
Actually, a number of us have pointed out the limitations of the code when it comes to portraying the wealth of accents and nuances of speech that happen IRL. Nevermind if you add alcohol into the mix. If you don't have experience of this and therefore disbelieve it, maybe you should travel a little bit, and listen.
You do have a point that two characters from exactly the same background in Menos might portray the same accent differently, and if this non-conformity annoys you and gets you blowing so much smoke out your ears that it ruins your enjoyment of the game, bad luck.
Though to be honest, it might say more about your tolerance for people playing in a different syle to you, rather than the abilities of the other player in portraying their character.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 13, 2011, 06:52:33 AM
Really though, if you can't understand what another character's saying, if it's so unbearable that you just can't figure it out, tell 'em to lose the mush mouth and speak the highlord's Sirihish-- play it out like your character would react.
This is a role-playing game, after all.
This! When I was still settling into one of my character's way of speaking, I did a particularly ridiculous set of contractions, something -like-: Ge' ou' o' 'ere' o' els' i' i' no' up t'me...
The character I was speaking to immediatly picked it up and ridiculed my character for it. Fair enough! I mean, wtf must that sound like? It had me laughing RL at the time, it's getting me laughing now, and was all handled totally IC.
When I visited England I met some guy from Birmingham who actually talked that way. I couldn't understand a bit of it. Our conversations would go: I's th b'n me life!
What?
I's th b'n me life!
What?
I's th b'n me life!
What?
Etc.
A simple in English accented English would not have been sufficient to describe this.
Yup. It sounds bizarre and hard to decipher if you're not used to it. But it's realistic.
I'm expecting Maxid to argue that he should be able to understand it and it not to sound unintelligible if he was also from that family and exact area of Birmingham. Which is true.
So Booya's the one who started the apostrophe soup gag ... >_>
Heh... mumbled speech and trouble with auditory processing are a rather common trait of my family...
So... it's fairly common to wind up with a situation along the lines of ...
First: *tries to say* I want to do some sightseeing.
Second: *trying to parse what the other has said* ... You want a dancing wallaby?
;)
We also follow the great English-language tradition of incorporating a couple suitable foreign words for concepts that just work better in it, which is a little tricky to do codedly since I'm not sure what concepts are better represented in languages I know only three words out of IG. :D Or how to indicate I'm adopting them.
QuoteSo it is ok to emote how you are hitting the tall muscular man in the neck for unspeakable damage (which is codedly self-explaining), but not to spell out how the rinthi accent (which, in the same way, codedly explains itself) you have sounds?
Yes, because it is not possible to set an emote to each of your swings. The code only gives a generic message, The swing landed here and did so with this force. You can then..before or after, tell us what happened before it landed, Did your PC spin to make a neat roundhouse with the sword? ETC. In language the code tells the language and accent AND you have the ability to add in mannerisms etc directly into every say/tell/ask/whisper and shout.
QuoteAs far as not saying its bad RP, well, you did say it was epically failing, which I thought was pretty similar to 'not good RP'.
No, in fact, many of the people who I sadly have to ignore because I cannot understand what the PC is saying are quite good roleplayers, which is why it annoys me enough to even post. I don't want to ignore them.
The epic fail is the thought that it is a creative addition to the game, which is not equal to ability to roleplay.
As I, Maxid and others have said...you have the tools in game to TELL me what the accent or style of speech is...USE it, don't show me, I'm not even going to look for my decoder ring.
But if you do "tell amos (in a broken stuttered manner) Hello Amos, How was your hunt?" I WILL go along with it, that it came out in a broken and stuttered manner. And no decoder ring needed.
I find it much more immersive if done correctly to type it out rather than use a say emote. Plus, you can use combinations of the two to really flush it out.
say (in a high pitched voice) Wha's yer fuckin' problem 'ere?
or
say (in a high pitched voice while speaking improperly) What is your fucking problem here?
I prefer the first one by far over the second. You can tell me that your speaking improperly using say (speaking improperly) but I still read it and think it as "What is your fucking problem here?"
In the first, I'm reading it and thinking it the way it is intended to sound. That's much more immersive to me.
Is anyone rally advocating 2 over 1? Cause 2 just isn't the way we do it on Arm and won't be.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 13, 2011, 02:23:51 PM
Is anyone rally advocating 2 over 1? Cause 2 just isn't the way we do it on Arm and won't be.
No, a few now and again is totally cool, even I, the biggest 'No apostrophe soup' proponent have admitted that that much is a-ok. They're attempting to strawman me, because reading is hard.
Quote from: Booya on June 13, 2011, 09:58:58 AM
Actually, a number of us have pointed out the limitations of the code when it comes to portraying the wealth of accents and nuances of speech that happen IRL. Nevermind if you add alcohol into the mix. If you don't have experience of this and therefore disbelieve it, maybe you should travel a little bit, and listen.
You do have a point that two characters from exactly the same background in Menos might portray the same accent differently, and if this non-conformity annoys you and gets you blowing so much smoke out your ears that it ruins your enjoyment of the game, bad luck.
Though to be honest, it might say more about your tolerance for people playing in a different syle to you, rather than the abilities of the other player in portraying their character.
This is the only part of your rant that actually addressed any real issue or point, so I'll focus on it. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on the ad hominems, save to say that I have traveled extensively RL, and I'm not as mad as you seem to think, only enjoying the debate. I have said, many times that people are free to play how they wish. I am merely pointing out that doing so is counter to logic, and good Rp. I will attempt to explain again, as a new arguer has stepped up to the plate. What's most alarming is you actually -read- the arguments. You just ignored their purpose and point. I'll try again.
The purpose of an accent is to add flavor. This is to indicate that your character is from Menos, or the north, or drunk, or has a partially clipped tongue, etc. Utilizing the apostrophe soup method of portraying an accent does not do this, nor does any other attempt at altering the speech pattern with replaced half-words, soft sounds, and dropped vowels/ending consonants. By your own admission, in fact, in the quoted text.
So why are you doing it? If it is not doing the job it is designed to do, why are you utilizing it at all? I have yet to receive a valid answer to this (likely because there isn't one.) The best I've gotten is 'well people in the past did it' which is an appeal to tradition, which is a logical fallacy.
I'll state again, more plainly. I do not care if you use it, it's a mild annoyance, but so are some other things. It's a game, I can get over it. But, it is demonstrably poor Rp, as it does not adequately get your point across, or add anything except an extra few moments to decipher what is attempting to be said.
Do you understand my points? If not, I can explain in a different way, over and over, until you do understand. I'll try one more time here, just to be sure.
There is literally no disagreement, I am following a trail of facts here.
P1. Apostrophe soup/mimicking hick/cockney/etc. accents are utilized to signal the other person something about the character that uses them.
P2. Without standardization, there is no method to understand and translate which signal is attempting to be sent.
Q. If there is no standardization, then apostrophe soup/mimicking hick/cockney/etc. do not send a translatable signal.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 13, 2011, 02:23:51 PM
Is anyone rally advocating 2 over 1? Cause 2 just isn't the way we do it on Arm and won't be.
Sounds to me that is exactly what Maxid and X-D are saying we should all be doing or not doing anything to make our pc's speech stand out at all. I find the way they think it should be done to be bland and less immersive although neither way is really wrong. It's just personal preference.
Quote from: maxid on June 13, 2011, 02:28:12 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on June 13, 2011, 02:23:51 PM
Is anyone rally advocating 2 over 1? Cause 2 just isn't the way we do it on Arm and won't be.
No, a few now and again is totally cool, even I, the biggest 'No apostrophe soup' proponent have admitted that that much is a-ok. They're attempting to strawman me, because reading is hard.
Quote from: Booya on June 13, 2011, 09:58:58 AM
Actually, a number of us have pointed out the limitations of the code when it comes to portraying the wealth of accents and nuances of speech that happen IRL. Nevermind if you add alcohol into the mix. If you don't have experience of this and therefore disbelieve it, maybe you should travel a little bit, and listen.
You do have a point that two characters from exactly the same background in Menos might portray the same accent differently, and if this non-conformity annoys you and gets you blowing so much smoke out your ears that it ruins your enjoyment of the game, bad luck.
Though to be honest, it might say more about your tolerance for people playing in a different syle to you, rather than the abilities of the other player in portraying their character.
This is the only part of your rant that actually addressed any real issue or point, so I'll focus on it. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on the ad hominems, save to say that I have traveled extensively RL, and I'm not as mad as you seem to think, only enjoying the debate. I have said, many times that people are free to play how they wish. I am merely pointing out that doing so is counter to logic, and good Rp. I will attempt to explain again, as a new arguer has stepped up to the plate. What's most alarming is you actually -read- the arguments. You just ignored their purpose and point. I'll try again.
The purpose of an accent is to add flavor. This is to indicate that your character is from Menos, or the north, or drunk, or has a partially clipped tongue, etc. Utilizing the apostrophe soup method of portraying an accent does not do this, nor does any other attempt at altering the speech pattern with replaced half-words, soft sounds, and dropped vowels/ending consonants. By your own admission, in fact, in the quoted text.
So why are you doing it? If it is not doing the job it is designed to do, why are you utilizing it at all? I have yet to receive a valid answer to this (likely because there isn't one.) The best I've gotten is 'well people in the past did it' which is an appeal to tradition, which is a logical fallacy.
I'll state again, more plainly. I do not care if you use it, it's a mild annoyance, but so are some other things. It's a game, I can get over it. But, it is demonstrably poor Rp, as it does not adequately get your point across, or add anything except an extra few moments to decipher what is attempting to be said.
Do you understand my points? If not, I can explain in a different way, over and over, until you do understand. I'll try one more time here, just to be sure.
There is literally no disagreement, I am following a trail of facts here.
P1. Apostrophe soup/mimicking hick/cockney/etc. accents are utilized to signal the other person something about the character that uses them.
P2. Without standardization, there is no method to understand and translate which signal is attempting to be sent.
Q. If there is no standardization, then apostrophe soup/mimicking hick/cockney/etc. do not send a translatable signal.
I enjoy doing it because I think it adds to the flavor of the world, and defines my character somewhat. I do not 'over do' it to the point where it is incomprehensible, and I emulate a RL accent to give it context to the playerbase. I use this accent on characters I wish to sound a bit less refined and perfect in their intonation, pronunciation, and speech patterns. It doesn't translate to the Way nearly as much, because I think psionics would be a little more pure, more of thought transmission. It seems that with a lack of standardization, or documentation, that you think it should not be allowed. I think the game would be worse off if people only used
'say (In broken sirihish) Thanks, Governor. I really appreciate what you've done for me today. Blessings on you and your family.
And that's my 2 cents. I respect your opinion, but disagree with it.
Each neighborhood in Brooklyn is like a little village in some ways. But even in the same apartment building where people were born in that neighborhood there were a wealth of accents.
Any extreme can be bad :)
Though, If you were to say that same sentence with a bit more explanation on what it is supposed to sound like, I'd translate it into what it is supposed to sound like easily as I read it...no complaints.
WTF people.
There's a simple "solution" to this "problem".
If you can't OOCly understand what someone wrote because they've written their character's speech with a heavy/additional accent, then your character can't understand it either.
Bitch about it in-game, not on the GDB.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 13, 2011, 02:38:27 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 13, 2011, 02:28:12 PM
I'll state again, more plainly. I do not care if you use it, it's a mild annoyance, but so are some other things. It's a game, I can get over it.
It seems that with a lack of standardization, or documentation, that you think it should not be allowed.
Please try again.
Cheerfully yet gritty, a tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
"'ello chum, da wedder seems quite foul taday."
With a deep-seated, ancient hate, a no-nonsense dwarf asks, in sirihish:
"What the fuck is a wedder?"
With an annoyed frown, a tall, muscular man asks, insirihish:
"What are you stoopid or sumthin'?"
Raring back with a blocky fist, a no-nonsense dwarf exclaims, in sirihish:
"Shut your mushmouth, grebber!"
*brawl code goes here*
More like this, pls.
This whole argument is like arguing for/against slavery in the year 2012.
Personally, I havn't seen apostraphes overused in a long time, and the entire thread was ORIGINALLY dedicated to the use of large or possible unlikely words to be used by certain commoners.
Not to mention, the entire thread has turned into "Maxid, we all disagree" versus "I am Maxid, and this is my opinion."
Get over it. If someone does something in character, and you can't even understand the talk OOCly, then call them out on it. Unless they're a commoner, talking about the supply chain and lack of capital in their enterprise, and they are using words a Nenyuki Noble wouldn't know, just call them out. Maybe they're really smart, maybe, like an HG, they are just emulating someone else, or who the fuck cares?
At this point, do we need Halaster to resurrect [CERTAIN STAFF AVATAR] to just go off and kill anyone that pisses him off? Is that what we need?
Quote from: Riev on June 13, 2011, 04:14:36 PM
Not to mention, the entire thread has turned into "Maxid, we all disagree" versus "I am Maxid, and this is my opinion."
Except those people who agreed with me, right?
Antidisestablishmentarianism does seem a stretch, yep.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 13, 2011, 04:23:25 PM
Antidisestablishmentarianism does seem a stretch, yep.
Could combine big words with apostraphe soup.
'nt'd's'st'bl'shm'nt'r''n'sm!
Lol.
Yes! I dare someone.
Yeah! Let's drag more OOC stuff IC for lulz!!!! THIS IS GONNA BE HILARIOUS D00DZ
You really don't give up, do you?
I believe we were joking in an attempt to a) lighten the mood, and 2. CHANGE THE SUBJECT
Quote from: Barzalene on June 13, 2011, 06:55:51 PM
I believe we were joking in an attempt to a) lighten the mood, and 2. CHANGE THE SUBJECT
From the topic of the thread? ??? (Yes it was originally big words, but this is a side discussion alongside that one.)
To something less acrimonious.
It reminds me a little of Arabic, since if I recall correctly, most of the vowel sounds between consonants are represented by various apostrophe-like symbols, if at all.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 13, 2011, 06:59:20 PM
To something less acrimonious.
Happy day, I have never once posted in anger. I have been sarcastic, for certain, but never angry. And not really bitter, either. I'm sorry everyone else is feeling attacked, because I point out that they are wrong (But still encourage them to do it, if they feel it is necessary, repeatedly.)
I feel like I'm watching a dog chase its tail.
I suggest all of you read Trainspotting. After the first hundred pages, you should be able to understand the rest of the book and every butchered, apostrophe-ridden accent some drunk armer ever came up with.
I use apostrophes every second letter. 8)
Deal /w it
Though on a serious note, what If I'm trying to roleplay a character with a serious speech impediment with the speech purposely intended to be completely unintelligible?
I suppose it could be reflected through silly accents such as say (slurring) Hwee capt-oored eet fohr kay-ohs -- Bork bork bork! or something but that sounds more like a swedish accent rather than a speech impediment.
I'd advise considering getting your speech skills capped somewhere other than master, personally. Yes, that will give you a bit of a hearing disorder too, but that's even harder to do in the first place! I couldn't play myself. :-[
Derp?
Are people really complaining about unintelligible accents?
Here's a rule of thumb: If their EMOTES and ACTIONS are readable and well-written, then stfu. :D :D :D
If a player wants to create a character with an unintelligible accent, and they are able to consistently roleplay that, then all the power to them. YOU do not need to understand what they are saying -- if your character can't decipher it, then you need to roleplay that accordingly. There is a big difference between complaining about scholarly muckrakers and some guy being played as having cottonmouth.
The tall, nondescript elf expertly flourishes his daggers, before pointing one at you. "Ahb drill de taeg'n yer cyoinz naow!"
Quote from: Erisine on June 14, 2011, 08:38:19 PM
Derp?
Are people really complaining about unintelligible accents?
Here's a rule of thumb: If their EMOTES and ACTIONS are readable and well-written, then stfu. :D :D :D
If a player wants to create a character with an unintelligible accent, and they are able to consistently roleplay that, then all the power to them. YOU do not need to understand what they are saying -- if your character can't decipher it, then you need to roleplay that accordingly. There is a big difference between complaining about scholarly muckrakers and some guy being played as having cottonmouth.
The tall, nondescript elf expertly flourishes his daggers, before pointing one at you. "Ahb drill de taeg'n yer cyoinz naow!"
This is not what is being argued against, please reread the thread.
Quote from: Riev on June 13, 2011, 04:14:36 PM
the entire thread has turned into "Maxid, we all disagree" versus "I am Maxid, and this is my opinion."
Quote from: maxid on June 13, 2011, 07:15:23 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on June 13, 2011, 06:59:20 PM
To something less acrimonious.
I'm sorry everyone else is feeling attacked, because I point out that they are wrong (But still encourage them to do it, if they feel it is necessary, repeatedly.)
Also, who are you to determine this?
Quote from: maxid on June 14, 2011, 10:05:27 PM
Quote from: Erisine on June 14, 2011, 08:38:19 PM
Derp?
Are people really complaining about unintelligible accents?
Here's a rule of thumb: If their EMOTES and ACTIONS are readable and well-written, then stfu. :D :D :D
If a player wants to create a character with an unintelligible accent, and they are able to consistently roleplay that, then all the power to them. YOU do not need to understand what they are saying -- if your character can't decipher it, then you need to roleplay that accordingly. There is a big difference between complaining about scholarly muckrakers and some guy being played as having cottonmouth.
The tall, nondescript elf expertly flourishes his daggers, before pointing one at you. "Ahb drill de taeg'n yer cyoinz naow!"
This is not what is being argued against, please reread the thread.
For the past three pages, it would seem very much like that is what is being argued against.
I'll elaborate on a point made some time earlier, about how the game has coded accents, but there can be sub-accents.
In the US, there is the general idea of what a "Southern" accent is.
However, if you actually are FROM the South, and have one such accent, you can attest that not all Southern accents are made the same. For example, there is the "Deep South" Southern Belle (think about that newer Butterfinger commercials); you have a New Orleans accent, which is sort of influenced with 'ebonics' and creole; you have Mississippi Delta, which is a fairly large dialect. You have the Arklatex styled Southern accent, which is more Western than it is Southern. You have a different dialect entirely that crops up in rural Tennessee and Georgia, and I'm not even going to mention Florida.
All in all, these accents are all "Southern" and they are all in English. They not only use different words (coke = soda = pop // buggy = cart), but they use different inflections and pronunciations (mature = ma-tour / macher; taking = "taken", "tak'n", "tak'nd", "tak'ng", and, of course, "taked").
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 14, 2011, 11:02:25 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 13, 2011, 07:15:23 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on June 13, 2011, 06:59:20 PM
To something less acrimonious.
I'm sorry everyone else is feeling attacked, because I point out that they are wrong (But still encourage them to do it, if they feel it is necessary, repeatedly.)
Also, who are you to determine this?
I demonstrated it logically. And I have not been alone, if you read back.
And Erisine, as I mentioned before, the population is startlingly small in Zalanthas. And, there is no standardization, thus rendering the accent impotent at its most important job - indicating where the character is from/how they were educated/etc.
Please, next time just read the thread. This has been rehashed a dozen times.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on athis stuff. I don't think anyone demonstraited anything logically, but in the end I think it's pretty much all a storm in a teacup anyway.
Ah'v sed mah beet, sah nahw ah'm gunna shuddup.
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:17:25 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 14, 2011, 11:02:25 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 13, 2011, 07:15:23 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on June 13, 2011, 06:59:20 PM
To something less acrimonious.
I'm sorry everyone else is feeling attacked, because I point out that they are wrong (But still encourage them to do it, if they feel it is necessary, repeatedly.)
Also, who are you to determine this?
I demonstrated it logically. And I have not been alone, if you read back.
True, but until the staff pitch in their two cents on the matter, there's no way anyone at all can say what's right and what's wrong.
Logic = nothing when the Staff have final say in anything.
Quote from: Erisine on June 14, 2011, 08:38:19 PM
Derp?
I think that sums up your post nicely. Good job saying absolutely nothing.
Quote from: jstorrie on June 15, 2011, 05:18:07 AM
Quote from: NOFUN on June 14, 2011, 04:48:38 AM
kay-ohs
ugh, quit getting /tg/ on my gdb.
You'd be surprised how close I've come to making a cultist-chan gimmick character.
Qzzbrl, and BleakOne
I'm fine with disagreement. I don't really even care all that much. But it is poor Rp, as demonstrated repeatedly. I've said that like a dozen times now. ;D
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 07:28:29 AM
Qzzbrl, and BleakOne
I'm fine with disagreement. I don't really even care all that much. But it is poor Rp, as demonstrated repeatedly. I've said that like a dozen times now. ;D
I'm fine with disagreement too. I also don't really even care all that much. But nobody really is the end-all be-all decider of what is good or bad RP, perhaps with the exception of staff. I forsee myself saying this a dozen times in the near future. ;D
What the weird orange thingy with the green fish said.
If it is indecipherable (either in so far as to what the PC is actually saying, even to players whose PCs are from the same area, OR in so far as to get the point across as to where they are from) then it is bad Rp, since it only takes away and adds nothing. Since the apostrophe soup accents don't offer anything, due to lack of conformity (and this recognizability, yes I made that up) they don't have a point, except to make you feel special, and annoy others. So they are bad Rp. I'm not a sole arbiter here, I'm just pointing it out logically.
Anyway, this thread is done. My position is unassailable.
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:01:16 PM
If it is indecipherable (either in so far as to what the PC is actually saying, even to players whose PCs are from the same area, OR in so far as to get the point across as to where they are from) then it is bad Rp, since it only takes away and adds nothing. Since the apostrophe soup accents don't offer anything, due to lack of conformity (and this recognizability, yes I made that up) they don't have a point, except to make you feel special, and annoy others. So they are bad Rp. I'm not a sole arbiter here, I'm just pointing it out logically.
Anyway, this thread is done. My position is unassailable.
You were giving me grief over emulating a Southern accent, which is far from indecipherable, and said that was bad RP. I fail to see how it adds nothing and only takes away from the game. It does make me feel special, and I don't think it annoys others.
Since I started this thread I feel some responsibility to respond to the last seven pages (even though it's sort of a derail). I use apostrophies in my speech. But it's not an apostrophy soup or anything. And I don't think I do it in a way that even remotely sounds like a southern accent. I do things like instead of "The Byn" I would say "T'Byn". Or if my character is worked up, they may combine articles to nouns like "Just wait'a feckin' minute!" I think the way I do it makes my character sound gruff and jaded, far more than having a "Southern American accent."Adding apostrophies randomly would be bad grammar... if random. Apostrophies are supposed to represent certain syllables or parts of a word that's been left out of the actual speech, like when someone says '09 instead of 2009.
My point is I think apostrophies are fine if they are perfectly readable and are not just "random" cause when you read sentences made by players who use apostrophies, you're supposed to sound it out as if the apostrophies are just missing syllables or parts of the word that the character leaves out when they talk.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 15, 2011, 04:11:58 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:01:16 PM
If it is indecipherable (either in so far as to what the PC is actually saying, even to players whose PCs are from the same area, OR in so far as to get the point across as to where they are from) then it is bad Rp, since it only takes away and adds nothing. Since the apostrophe soup accents don't offer anything, due to lack of conformity (and this recognizability, yes I made that up) they don't have a point, except to make you feel special, and annoy others. So they are bad Rp. I'm not a sole arbiter here, I'm just pointing it out logically.
Anyway, this thread is done. My position is unassailable.
You were giving me grief over emulating a Southern accent, which is far from indecipherable, and said that was bad RP. I fail to see how it adds nothing and only takes away from the game. It does make me feel special, and I don't think it annoys others.
Please reread what I wrote. There is no standardization, thus rendering it pointless for adding information.
My position is unassailable.
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on June 15, 2011, 04:11:58 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:01:16 PM
If it is indecipherable (either in so far as to what the PC is actually saying, even to players whose PCs are from the same area, OR in so far as to get the point across as to where they are from) then it is bad Rp, since it only takes away and adds nothing. Since the apostrophe soup accents don't offer anything, due to lack of conformity (and this recognizability, yes I made that up) they don't have a point, except to make you feel special, and annoy others. So they are bad Rp. I'm not a sole arbiter here, I'm just pointing it out logically.
Anyway, this thread is done. My position is unassailable.
You were giving me grief over emulating a Southern accent, which is far from indecipherable, and said that was bad RP. I fail to see how it adds nothing and only takes away from the game. It does make me feel special, and I don't think it annoys others.
Please reread what I wrote. There is no standardization, thus rendering it pointless for adding information.
My position is unassailable.
Hah, you're also a dick about it.
The mustachioed, curly-haired man says, in Spanish-accented English,
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:44:29 PM
My position is unassailable.
Protip: when, in an internet argument, you have begun saying things that would comfortably fit into last-act dialogue for the villain in an action-adventure movie, you have gone off-course.
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on June 15, 2011, 04:11:58 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:01:16 PM
If it is indecipherable (either in so far as to what the PC is actually saying, even to players whose PCs are from the same area, OR in so far as to get the point across as to where they are from) to me, as a player then it is bad Rp in my own opinion, since it only takes away and adds nothing in my own opinion. Since the apostrophe soup accents don't offer anything (in my own opinion), due to lack of conformity (and this recognizability, yes I made that up) they don't have a point (in my own opinion), except to make you feel special (my assumption), and annoy others at least me. So they are bad Rp in my own opinion. I'm not a sole arbiter here, I'm just pointing it out logically.
Anyway, this thread is done in my own opinion. My position is unassailable (in my own opinion).
You were giving me grief over emulating a Southern accent, which is far from indecipherable (in my own opinion), and said that was bad RP (in your own opinion). I fail to see how it adds nothing and only takes away from the game, but that is my own point of view. It does make me feel special, and I don't think it annoys others (but it could).
Please reread what I wrote. There is no standardization (in my own opinion), thus rendering it pointless for adding information (in my own opinion).
My position is unassailable (in my own opinion).
Those are just, like...your opinions, man...
That's exactly what I was trying to say.
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9f6shhJW91qzsn9l.jpg)
Words like 'unassailable' should be reserved for excellent mathematical proofs, not a roleplaying discussion.
Thanks Nyr. :)
This is a thread done right.
Yep. Think Delirium won the thread though.
Summary - it's ok to have your opinions of RP style, it's not cool to impose them on others.
Without RP flavor, Arm just wouldn't taste as good.
Edit: Post was completely off topic. Sorry guis.
Quote from: Nyr on June 15, 2011, 05:05:00 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:44:29 PM
Anyway, this thread is done in my own opinion. My position is unassailable (in my own opinion).
Please reread what I wrote. There is no standardization (in my own opinion), thus rendering it pointless for adding information (in my own opinion).
My position is unassailable (in my own opinion).
Those are just, like...your opinions, man...
[/quote]
But there is no standardization. The unassailable thing was tongue in cheek. So while disliking the apostrophe soup manner of accenting is, in my opinion, dumb. It is also an indecipherable method of adding to your character.
That's not an opinion, that is a fact. I'm not trolling, I'm not angry, and honestly I hate disagreeing with staff, but this is the GDB, discussion is it's purpose. I mean it respectfully (I may have been more playful with other people) but, really, even the people who -use- the accents have agreed that there is no standardization, and so two people ICly from the same place, or even family, might be trying to prove the same thing, with wildly different apostrophe soups.
And I thought that I had made it pretty clear that the rest is just my opinion. If I haven't, then I apologize.
God using apostrohphies aren't for adding accents. It's for sounding it certain words like you feel you're character would -exactly-
I guess you have no answer for my above post.
Quote from: maxid on June 16, 2011, 02:29:29 PM
Quote from: Nyr on June 15, 2011, 05:05:00 PM
Quote from: maxid on June 15, 2011, 04:44:29 PM
Anyway, this thread is done in my own opinion. My position is unassailable (in my own opinion).
Please reread what I wrote. There is no standardization (in my own opinion), thus rendering it pointless for adding information (in my own opinion).
My position is unassailable (in my own opinion).
Those are just, like...your opinions, man...
But there is no standardization. The unassailable thing was tongue in cheek. So while disliking the apostrophe soup manner of accenting is, in my opinion, dumb. It is also an indecipherable method of adding to your character.
That's not an opinion, that is a fact. I'm not trolling, I'm not angry, and honestly I hate disagreeing with staff, but this is the GDB, discussion is it's purpose. I mean it respectfully (I may have been more playful with other people) but, really, even the people who -use- the accents have agreed that there is no standardization, and so two people ICly from the same place, or even family, might be trying to prove the same thing, with wildly different apostrophe soups.
And I thought that I had made it pretty clear that the rest is just my opinion. If I haven't, then I apologize.
[/quote]
There's a lack of standardization to
alot of things IG.
Standardization =/= good.
Quote from: Intrepid237 on June 16, 2011, 03:55:45 PM
God using apostrohphies aren't for adding accents. It's for sounding it certain words like you feel you're character would -exactly-
I guess you have no answer for my above post.
accent
ac·cent/ˈaksent/
Verb: Emphasize (a particular feature).
Noun: A distinctive mode of pronunciation of a language, esp. one associated with a particular nation, locality, or social class.
You're a moron. I'm sorry, everyone else in the thread has valid points, and opinions but you are actually a moron. That is the literal definition of an accent. So no, I don't have an answer to your above post, because it's moronic. Just like the quoted post. Please, understand the definition of words before you use them.
Qzzbrl - Without standardization, there is no ability for it to have any meaning. I'm not pushing for standardization, I'm just bringing up that it renders it ineffective at telling a story. Again - I don't care if you use it, but realistically, it doesn't add anything.
The apostrophes are a clue to how the accent works. The accents represented by the apostrophes are showing places where sounds are not expanded but rather compressed or dropped.
It's ok to disagree with people, it's really not nice to call them morons though.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 16, 2011, 06:25:47 PM
The apostrophes are a clue to how the accent works. The accents represented by the apostrophes are showing places where sounds are not expanded but rather compressed or dropped.
It's ok to disagree with people, it's really not nice to call them morons though.
Right. So the apostrophes represent an accent. You agree with me.
I agree with both of you.
If I'm at my kitchen table talking to my family I definitely don't have an accent in that context, how ever I may choose to slur or talk with my mouth full. And to illustrate what that sounds like I could use an apostrophe.
Both things can be true simultaneously.
Quote from: Intrepid237 on June 16, 2011, 03:55:45 PM
God using apostrohphies aren't for adding accents. It's for sounding it certain words like you feel you're character would -exactly-
Um. Actually, apostrophes are either for taking the place of letters that are removed when making two words into a contraction, or for showing possession.
That's my contribution to this thread that no longer has anything to do with "Big Words."
QuoteYou're a moron. I'm sorry, everyone else in the thread has valid points, and opinions but you are actually a moron. That is the literal definition of an accent. So no, I don't have an answer to your above post, because it's moronic. Just like the quoted post. Please, understand the definition of words before you use them.
Which is why my IQ is 157. You're a troll. If my above post is moronic, then please explain master.
I think what Intrepid was trying to say with his recent posts that the apostrophe can be used to establish nuances within accents. If there is a divergence in accents between the south and north sides of a single city, then that basically proves there could be sub-accents within the established coded accents that players are allowed to express/not express as much as they wish.
This essentially gives players yet one more tool (in addition to choice of words, looks and manner of dress, etc) to make their characters seem like they're from Red Storm, or from the Commoner's Quarter of Allanak, or from the Noble's Quarter, or from the Warrens, or Morin's, or Poet's Circle, or seem smart or dumb, good with words or not so good, and so much more without asking staff to make dozens of unique sub-accents for people from different places or in different situations.
While an attention to sub-accents may not add anything for some players, it does add something for those who do make that an aspect of their roleplay, and for those who experience and analyze that when they play with others who use this.
Also, calling a relatively new member of our community a moron in his own derailed thread... let's try to avoid that in the future if we seriously want to discuss this topic.
Quote from: Intrepid237 on June 16, 2011, 06:38:18 PM
QuoteYou're a moron. I'm sorry, everyone else in the thread has valid points, and opinions but you are actually a moron. That is the literal definition of an accent. So no, I don't have an answer to your above post, because it's moronic. Just like the quoted post. Please, understand the definition of words before you use them.
Which is why my IQ is 157. You're a troll. If my above post is moronic, then please explain master.
lol. Sure it is.
Anyway.. You use apostrophes to show how your character is speaking right? To show the way that s/he emphasizes, or clips words? That's an accent. The example you posted, has that happening. I honestly don't even understand what you're arguing for/against.
Manipura - yes, that is their -actual- use. that is not how they're used in apostrophe soup accents. Which is what this thread has been about. For the past 10 pages.
Cutthroat - As has been mentioned about fifteen times. Sub-accents are used to make more information about the character known. They are ineffective, because they are entirely random, so it's impossible to know anything more from the sub-accent. I don't mind (and don't have the power to end) people using them. It personally annoys me a little, but I mostly got into the discussion in this thread because I like to discuss, and this is a topic that's kinda easy to argue.
QuoteAnyway.. You use apostrophes to show how your character is speaking right? To show the way that s/he emphasizes, or clips words? That's an accent. The example you posted, has that happening. I honestly don't even understand what you're arguing for/against.
I'm not going to feed the troll any further. I posted one response on my own damn thread and you immediately shoot back calling me a moron. I'm suprised you haven't had your posting priveledges revoked. It's obvious the majority of people disagree with you but "your position is unassailable" Feck it.
Quote from: Intrepid237 on June 16, 2011, 06:58:25 PM
I'm not going to feed the troll any further. I posted one response on my own damn thread and you immediately shoot back calling me a moron. I'm suprised you haven't had your posting priveledges revoked. It's obvious the majority of people disagree with you but "your position is unassailable" Feck it.
It was not a troll. I apologize that you are unwilling to participate in the discussion, but I am not trolling. You posted something moronic. I ignored it, in an attempt to let you reread what was said. You posted an attempted call out, and I called you out on posting something dumb. Now you're upset about it. I understand that, I was a little harsh. But I am a -far- cry from trolling.
QuoteIt was not a troll. I apologize that you are unwilling to participate in the discussion, but I am not trolling. You posted something moronic. I ignored it, in an attempt to let you reread what was said. You posted an attempted call out, and I called you out on posting something dumb. Now you're upset about it. I understand that, I was a little harsh. But I am a -far- cry from trolling.
The only thing my post stated was there are ways to use apostrophies that aren't a representation of an american southern accent and that no one should use apostrophies to the point where it becomes unintelligable. If that's moronic thinking then sigh me up I guess.
ALL YOUR TROLL ARE BELONG TO US!
Quote from: maxid on June 16, 2011, 06:45:50 PM
Cutthroat - As has been mentioned about fifteen times. Sub-accents are used to make more information about the character known. They are ineffective, because they are entirely random, so it's impossible to know anything more from the sub-accent. I don't mind (and don't have the power to end) people using them. It personally annoys me a little, but I mostly got into the discussion in this thread because I like to discuss, and this is a topic that's kinda easy to argue.
Right, you're saying that. I'm saying the sub-accent comes together with other things to put the character on display in a certain way. It doesn't stand alone to show facts to the player.
Quote from: Intrepid237 on June 16, 2011, 07:04:55 PM
The only thing my post stated was there are ways to use apostrophies that aren't a representation of an american southern accent and that no one should use apostrophies to the point where it becomes unintelligable. If that's moronic thinking then sigh me up I guess.
ALL YOUR TROLL ARE BELONG TO US!
Repeatedly declaring someone a troll, despite evidence to the contrary, is a form of trolling.
Let me quote the post where you 'clarified' shall I?
Quote from: Intrepid237
God using apostrohphies aren't for adding accents. It's for sounding it certain words like you feel you're character would -exactly-
I guess you have no answer for my above post.
This is why you were moronic, as it added to the first post. Do you understand now?
Cutthroat - Other methods of identifying characterization (tattoos, style of dress, even weapon styles, etc.) are standardized and explained and relateable. Apostrophe soup is not. That is my only argument. That is my only claim. The subaccent you invent for Menos may be different than the one I do. Thus, nobody is able to tell you intend to have your accent be because you're from Menos.
Ghost ... lock this thread. ::)
QuoteThis is why you were moronic, as it added to the first post. Do you understand now?
Of course, they can't be used for making your character sound gruff or to emulate a speech impediment or drunkenness.
You're obviously no older than 15 cause people who act like you in person don't make it in life.
Quote from: musashi on June 16, 2011, 08:09:20 PM
Ghost ... lock this thread. ::)
The relevance of this thread really got lost somewhere on page 4. After that, it's all just been arguing with Maxid.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u292/joshbissey/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)
QuoteThe relevance of this thread really got lost somewhere on page 4. After that, it's all just been arguing with Maxid.
Agreed, my thread was derailed in the most obscene matter possible. And it's not a very good representation of the quality and ethics of the playerbase of this game.
Lock thread please :/
Quote from: Intrepid237 on June 16, 2011, 08:42:30 PM
QuoteThe relevance of this thread really got lost somewhere on page 4. After that, it's all just been arguing with Maxid.
Agreed, my thread was derailed in the most obscene matter possible. And it's not a very good representation of the quality and ethics of the playerbase of this game.
Lock thread please :/
I am sorry about my part in the de-rail. I let myself get baited into an argument with a troll.
Quote from: BleakOne on June 16, 2011, 09:08:25 PM
Quote from: Intrepid237 on June 16, 2011, 08:42:30 PM
QuoteThe relevance of this thread really got lost somewhere on page 4. After that, it's all just been arguing with Maxid.
Agreed, my thread was derailed in the most obscene matter possible. And it's not a very good representation of the quality and ethics of the playerbase of this game.
Lock thread please :/
I am sorry about my part in the de-rail. I let myself get baited into an argument with a troll.
Yeah. This thread has obviously served its purpose, and the discussion is degenerating and going nowhere.
Quote from: maxid on June 16, 2011, 08:07:49 PM
Repeatedly declaring someone a troll, despite evidence to the contrary, is a form of trolling.
Oh look! A thinly-veiled "No u!"
Seriously though, the instant you resort to needless name-calling or getting personal with another poster during a serious discussion-- you start trolling.
Christ, why hasn't this thread been locked yet?
I think Nyr is enjoying watching it just go on, and on, and on...
Also, maxid, for future reference...
"1. Please don't flame. While you can criticize the opinions of other people, do so with respect for them as a fellow human. Unneccessary, flaming, baiting and trolling will be removed and the instigator and respondees may have their posting privileges revoked. This rule extends to criticism and baiting of staff. If you have a complaint against a staff member please place a complaint via the request tool, complaints and flaming of staff on the boards will not be tolerated."
I think all of us sort of played with this rule in this thread, and weren't really called out on it. Baiting people, calling people morons, etc isn't really a debate or discussion anymore.
... Would a Zalanthan know what the word "anachronistic" means? And if a Zalanthan uses "hypothetically speaking", and they use it wrong... is that kind of like a Zalanthan trying to be a fancy guy, and totally doing it wrong? How about "In retrospect" and things like that? It seems like a Zalanthan can take words like hypothetical, retrospect, and you know... totally do it wrong, but impress his dumb buddies with these huge words.
Cool?
(Edit: Saellyn revives the thread and saves it!)
I think that would work, especially if he overheard someone more educated using the words earlier, either ICly or 'off-screen', as it may be.
The moronic guy says, in sirihish:
"Ya, that retrospect there, lookin back at it now, retrospect was a good idea."
The Templar says, in sirihish:
"Oh by the Highlord what have I done? He knows smart words - and he's an idiot!"
The entire crowd of moron commoners oooh's and aaah's at the moronic guy.
The Templar says, in sirihish:
"... In retrospect, I should have killed him for overhearing that word..."
So I like ignored the last few pages.
But I was thinking about title topic and...What exactly is a big word anyway?
I mean, I can think of many common multi-syllable words for simple ideas and quite a few single and double syllable words for less simple ideas.
I believe the definition is anything that makes the hooples scratch their heads.
Everyone has a different opinion on what constitutes a big word. I think most associate it with how (in)frequently the word comes up in normal, everyday conversation.
Quote from: racurtne on June 17, 2011, 03:42:26 AM
I believe the definition is anything that makes the hooples scratch their heads.
Everyone has a different opinion on what constitutes a big word. I think most associate it with how (in)frequently the word comes up in normal, everyday conversation.
I'd agree with that.
I don't think it's how big the word is, it's how unique or specialized it might be. Where commonfolk may only understand the idea of a beat, those associated with the bardic circle would grasp the concept of rhythm. Alternatively, a Kadian would possibly be concerned with the asterism of a gem while the grebber would only care about the flawlessness.
Asterism: The starlike design inherent in some precious gems.