How do Zalanthans look at a scientific method, an organized way to learn.
Would it be frowned upon to try to invent mechanisms? Like a clock or engines? I could see obsidian and wood being used for gears and stuff.
Would it be frowned upon to draw diagrams? Is it seen like writing? Like say, if I was an armorer or wagon/argosy maker building an advanced device, I think writing it down might be an important part of making it.
What about mathematics? I think they've invented 0, and a lot of numbers. What about geometry, trigonometry, algebra, etc?
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,4771.0.html
Quote from: Sanvean on September 13, 2003, 05:02:23 PM
We've had this discussion several times among the staff, and here are some of the reasons we figure Zalanthan technology would advance at a snail's pace, or even regress at times.
1) Scarcity of resources, particularly metal.
2) The vast majority of people are struggling too hard to survive to worry about the curvature of the earth, the nature of light, etc. Science would be a hobby for a few nobles, but not many.
3) Illiteracy. The written word is important for passing knowledge along - without it, much is lost, which means you may have inventors out there re-inventing the wheel, so to speak, over and over.
4) The existence of magick - magick is easier than some science.
5) The conflation of technology and magick - given that magick is dreaded and feared, technologies that have nigh magickal results would be suspect.
6) The oppressive goverments. In both city-states, free thought is something to be discouraged by the government, not encouraged. In the south, it might get you rousted and killed by the templarate, while in the north, you might simply, quietly be disappeared.
That may help form the basis for some of the answers you seek at least.
I had a scientist character, once, who was studying medicine and anatomy. His greatest secrets were amateur diagrams of corpses he studied with extremely basic notations made in a crude symbol cipher of his own design. Of course, code being what it is, the only way anyone would know about it is if I was conscious while they were going through my stuff and I could emote it out. He was well aware that even something that simple was illegal. Funnily enough, most people didn't scratch the surface on him despite his tendency to ask "deeper" questions about how cures and poisons worked... but I guess a ton of PCs go for the superficial info on that stuff anyway. ;) I think that a true, determined and skeptical scientist would be similar to a sorcerer in many ways. Both are undertaking forbidden, potentially dangerous studies, after all.
Quote from: SMuz on March 28, 2011, 11:48:35 AM
Would it be frowned upon to try to invent mechanisms? Like a clock or engines? I could see obsidian and wood being used for gears and stuff.
I could see very simple pulleys being operated manually, and we have crossbows which are fairly mechanical, but I don't think anything much more complex than a catapult could easily exist.
QuoteWould it be frowned upon to draw diagrams? Is it seen like writing? Like say, if I was an armorer or wagon/argosy maker building an advanced device, I think writing it down might be an important part of making it.
Drawing isn't illegal. That said, have you ever put together some furniture and the only instructions that came with it were pictures and arrows pointing where pieces need to go? It's frustrating, but possible... I could see Zalanthans doing that.
QuoteWhat about mathematics? I think they've invented 0, and a lot of numbers. What about geometry, trigonometry, algebra, etc?
Zalanthans probably would know of zero, though negative numbers would probably be useless to them. A good understanding of mathematics is a likely requirement for mastery of construction, which two noble houses have.
Your average Zalanthan likely isn't going to care about the sciences, although nobles and templars might, and even then mainly for applications - less so for theory and curiosity.
Just a thought about drawing, something to keep in mind is that your character probably does not have the hand/eye coordination of someone who has been writing and playing video games since age 6 :)
Quote from: Cutthroat on March 28, 2011, 12:29:22 PM
Drawing isn't illegal. That said, have you ever put together some furniture and the only instructions that came with it were pictures and arrows pointing where pieces need to go? It's frustrating, but possible... I could see Zalanthans doing that.
See: IKEA
Quote from: valeria on March 28, 2011, 12:38:12 PM
Just a thought about drawing, something to keep in mind is that your character probably does not have the hand/eye coordination of someone who has been writing and playing video games since age 6 :)
I would think that lives filled with manual labor coupled with a lack of any sort of mass-production industries would mean that most Zalanthans would be pretty capable with manual tasks. With the lack of available resources, most people would be forced to repair or retool damaged goods such as crockery, clothing, and shelter. However, I agree that this specific sort of hand-eye coordination would be very rare, though Rangers, Merchants, Burglars, Pickpockets, and any subguild that focuses on crafting would have a strong affinity for such training.
Edit: And don't forget all those finger-wigglers.
Quote from: valeria on March 28, 2011, 12:38:12 PM
Just a thought about drawing, something to keep in mind is that your character probably does not have the hand/eye coordination of someone who has been writing and playing video games since age 6 :)
Wait, I would argue they might have better coordination, since it takes more acute eye sight to spot beasts in the wild, or hidden sneakies than it would to ever play a video game, which over time wears down the vision not enhances it.
AS well I would equate a hunter/ warrior/ assassin and others to types of athletes in regards to coordination. Bards would need to be coordinated to play instruments and are in fact painters/ sculptors and so forth Icly.
I do not really see video game playing as an evolution into being a better artist, and would state that there were equally if not greater minds in the distant histories of our culture far before the technologies we have today. And they where in some regards as lo-tech as Z-land, producing brilliance with high articulation in their crafts.
The scientific method and things like mathematics, sciences, rudimentary physics even, probably do exist at a basic level. However, they're probably restricted to the nobility, Templarate, and possibly trusted slaves. For example, a noble-born architect would obviously need to be able to draw diagrams/plans/sketches, and have a basic understanding of structural physics and mathematics.
Drawing and drafting isn't really the same kind of hand-eye coordination as the kind you're talking about in terms of survival skills, being able to repair weapons or armor, etc. It uses different fine motor muscles and different brain paths, the ones that are a lot closer to writing. And video games are wonderful spacial perception trainers, which is really really necessary to a good drawing.
You know how most little kids draw people? It's not because little kids are stupid, it's because they haven't developed the spatial and fine motor controls that more practiced adults have. And while even most adults can't draw people, the approximations are closer. You get better at drawing the more you do it, too. The well-renowned artists of the bygone ages definitely put in their 10,000 hours.
People could draw and paint and science it up before video-games. Just sayin.
That was so not my point.
I think Arm may best represent the difference between sciences.
I think they're probably pretty technologically advanced, after all they've held a relatively stable existence for centuries and have time/people/and money to invest in inventions and innovations to make life easier.
However, when it comes to basic science: the idea that everything happens for a reason, my guess is no -- they just don't have much of a grasp on cause and affect. The obvious reason for this is authority. Whims are just that, whims (totally lacking in logic) -- thus, without being able to question and seek answers of how things come to be (when so much of the world is "magical") there just isn't a lot of opportunity for study and hypotheses.
Quote from: valeria on March 28, 2011, 03:49:46 PM
Drawing and drafting isn't really the same kind of hand-eye coordination as the kind you're talking about in terms of survival skills, being able to repair weapons or armor, etc. It uses different fine motor muscles and different brain paths, the ones that are a lot closer to writing. And video games are wonderful spacial perception trainers, which is really really necessary to a good drawing.
You know how most little kids draw people? It's not because little kids are stupid, it's because they haven't developed the spatial and fine motor controls that more practiced adults have. And while even most adults can't draw people, the approximations are closer. You get better at drawing the more you do it, too. The well-renowned artists of the bygone ages definitely put in their 10,000 hours.
I thought it was because little kids haven't formed them yet. I was thinking something along the lines of the ancient Mayans, Egyptians, but it's difficult to find a society that hadn't developed an alphabet yet, since writing is one of the earliest human inventions.
Zalanthans do do things like woodwork, making tools, obsidian etching. I think someone with the fine motor skills to make a crossbow should be able to draw a schematic of that crossbow with a bit of charcoal and a large enough board.
Not to mention the reading level of your average Zalanthan commoner.....
That's one of the big things stunting scientific growth I would imagine.
Quote from: valeria on March 28, 2011, 12:38:12 PM
Just a thought about drawing, something to keep in mind is that your character probably does not have the hand/eye coordination of someone who has been writing and playing video games since age 6 :)
I'd tend to think of drawing like any Zalanthas skill. Yes, I know it's not a coded skill, but bear with me. To start out, you probably absolutely suck at it. You work on it, and you get better. Since it's not coded, if you're seeking non-coded results, you could probably weave it into your background.
I am now inspired to try and create a vast Zalanthian orrery with a wooden gear crank system.
Except, wait, first my character would have to know about stars...
And then how do the elemental domains factor in? ???
Quote from: Erythil on March 28, 2011, 11:43:14 PM
I am now inspired to try and create a vast Zalanthian orrery with a wooden gear crank system.
Except, wait, first my character would have to know about stars...
And then how do the elemental domains factor in? ???
You could do the moons. It's even a great thing to find out IC. And maybe finally a good use for that subguild tinker :P
Quote from: SMuz on March 28, 2011, 10:14:04 PM
I was thinking something along the lines of the ancient Mayans, Egyptians, but it's difficult to find a society that hadn't developed an alphabet yet, since writing is one of the earliest human inventions.
They have an alphabet/written language -- its just the majority of the population can't use it.
It is extremely unlikely that "science" as we know it would exist on Zalanthas.
The closest, culturally, that it would be able to come would be something like Western alchemy, Ayurvedic medicine, or traditional Chinese medicine. Caveat: these systems are much deeper than the common knowledge associated with them in the West, and were often integrated with, rather than pitted against, local cosmologies and religious systems.
What led to "science" as we know it was actually a break with the past. The abandoning of the ancient luminaries of Greece and Egypt brought about the modern era. I suspect that this happened in response to the Catholic Church and associated scholars cleaving to the teachings of Galen and others in a fanatical and un-experimental way.
This is an oversimplification, but Western learning stagnated in many ways between the times of the early Church and Paracelsus.
Modern science grew as a reaction to near a thousand years of stagnation. In response, Western Culture threw away what it knew, and started "from scratch" in terms of knowledge. At the same time, they made education much cheaper than it had been, and much more widespread. Older power bases (such as the church and a few hundred years later the monarchies) began collapsing under their own institutional weight.
Education and reason came to the fore. Eventually, that brought the scientific method.
What came after that was the belief that all knowledge must be backed by science.
So, could there be Zalanthan guilds and clans who have specialized knowledge passed on secretly? Absolutely. But think Alchemy, not Science.
PS: The writings of Hermes Trismegistus or C. Agrippa (the occultist, not the swordsman) and a good place to look for anyone interested in the pre-Renaissance growth of Western thought.
Yeah.
Science does not cause societal stability. If anything, it's a disruptive force. It changes how people live their lives; altering their wants and their needs. It encourages them to imagine better lives. Established, oppressive regimes don't want change or imagination among the populace, as people can change more rapidly than oppression mechanisms can adapt.
I'd say it's a matter of someone trying to figure out a scientific principle and giving up in total bafflement due to inconsistency.
Like the behavior of the moons, for example. By rights, the moons should rise and set over the course of a Zalanthian day. Instead they linger in the sky for days, but never go through phases (including the new moon phase during which they'd not be visible) over the course of each day, which would be necessary if they in nearly geosynchronous orbits.
Not to mention the appearance of an entirely new moon entering into orbit with apparently no eccentricity in its orbit.
It's maaaaagggiick.
Two things:
1. Some things just aren't coded.
2. You don't know all things about the gameworld.
These two things always going to be true.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 31, 2011, 11:30:48 AM
I'd say it's a matter of someone trying to figure out a scientific principle and giving up in total bafflement due to inconsistency.
To be fair, this statement, and the example to follow makes the presupposition that the laws of the Zalanthan universe are the same as the ones in our universe; and that's not the case, obviously.
I think it's funny that we're applying our laws of physics to theirs. I mean, for all we know, the world is flat, and there's actually a proper physical explanation for all this magic. Magic seems to some lazy workaround for a lot of games (where do half-giants come from? magic!). I think Arm started off that way, but staff will probably keep on building depth to anything that's already fully visible, so there should be something to learn.
Well, yeah, I guess modern scientific method is out of character. It seems pretty obvious now, but seeing how it took so many centuries to be accepted (and many researchers today still don't even bother with it), it's not something that would be intuitive to people back then. And a method of documentation seems very tedious in a world where literacy is illegal. It would probably be a very rare character who even bothers with a diagram.
Zalanthan technology seems a bit difficult to compare to Earth history. On one hand, tools are 'stone age'-like. But on the other hand, they've reached sort of an advanced stone age, where they've shaped bone and obsidian to something rivaling brittle iron in strength. They've probably made some advances. I think the financial system is very advanced for something of that age, what with currency and banks. I don't think they've really invented loans yet, but there is a fairly good calendar system.
It's not like it's impossible. The ancient Egyptians and Babylonians had a good method going, but then again, if you look at it, they had an abundance of leisure time. Heck, I'd suppose all that free time is a requirement for any kind of scientific advancement. The merchants are probably the most likely to initiate or sponsor anything resembling research.
So, yeah, I guess alchemy and oral tradition makes the most sense. And seeing how often PCs die or get murdered, oral tradition would see plenty of people reinventing something after that last inventor and his apprentice dies.
My personal thoughts:
Remember this is a POST APOCALYPTIC game.
The empire of man was much more advanced than the current level of technology. I've see things IG that more than hinted at this and sadly they seem few and far in between.
People in Zalanthas know how to do a few "complicated" things (such as architecture, limited machinery, crossbows, etf) because their great10 great grandfather -understood- how to do it at the end of the Empire of Man (most of its civilization and any organized learning practices/universities, etc perished during the reign of the dragon) and passed it on to his child. Each generation following was still able to make... say... a locking mechanism because their fore bearer taught them how, but they also forgot a detail or two of theory. So with each generation without an understanding of learning itself, the quality and understanding of science and technology lessons.
Side note: I personally like to think as the Empire of Man was the equivalent of our late nineteenth century. Or steampunk. :D
And while making that locking mechanism they must not forget to appease the machine spiri--oh wait, wrong game.
Quote from: valeria on April 01, 2011, 10:41:02 AM
And while making that locking mechanism they must not forget to appease the machine spiri--oh wait, wrong game.
I hear the Machine Spirit's voice!
Actually, the 40k analogy works pretty well:
Zalanthas is in the Dark Age of Technology.
Jihaens are space marines.
Lirathans are inquisitors.
Muk Utep is the god-emperor of man.
hahah... no.
Upon reflection, perhaps the number one ingredient that is (or should be) missing from Zalanthas that is necessary to develop science is a notion of "progress" akin to the one that developed in the Renaissance and Enlightenment.
A notion that the world can be made a better place for all. That knowledge is not to gain power, but for its own sake, to be passed on to one's culture.
Without that, there is no science.
Everyone knows Muk is a Primarch. The Emperor just hasn't come yet to try and recruit him. Tektolnes is probably an agent of Chaos.
everyone knows
if you are doing science in zalanthas you are wasting your time
you miught as well sneak/hide and watch other peop,e mudsex that is equally (if not more) useful
plus you get to watch mudsex
Quote from: Morrolan on April 01, 2011, 07:08:26 PM
Upon reflection, perhaps the number one ingredient that is (or should be) missing from Zalanthas that is necessary to develop science is a notion of "progress" akin to the one that developed in the Renaissance and Enlightenment.
A notion that the world can be made a better place for all. That knowledge is not to gain power, but for its own sake, to be passed on to one's culture.
Without that, there is no science.
I think this is a silly definition of science and a silly reason to say Zalanthas can't/doesn't have it. Plenty of people throughout history have done science entirely to gain power, for their own sake, to destroy other cultures.
If anything, it seems about the opposite. Dwarves are definitely the type to work very hard at progress. If any dwarf has a focus to build a bow that can shoot 3 arrows at once, it would probably be invented and other people would learn from the process.
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 20, 2011, 04:08:50 AM
Quote from: Morrolan on April 01, 2011, 07:08:26 PM
...necessary to develop science
...done science...
Yes, HB, many people have used science to gain power, etc. etc.
But that was after the basic principles, etc. had been developed.
"Throughout history" happens to mean only three centuries, here. It wasn't until Newton, Descartes, Pascal, Boyle, and Leibniz that things got going.
It's difficult to think of a world without science and rational experimentation, but the whole idea is new. Before that, there was a lot of arguing from first principles, reinterpreting the ancient luminaries and using the Bible to make calculations of what was true. And all that was from cultures where literacy was not punished by death.
Morrolan
Quote from: Morrolan on April 20, 2011, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 20, 2011, 04:08:50 AM
Quote from: Morrolan on April 01, 2011, 07:08:26 PM
...necessary to develop science
...done science...
Yes, HB, many people have used science to gain power, etc. etc.
But that was after the basic principles, etc. had been developed.
"Throughout history" happens to mean only three centuries, here. It wasn't until Newton, Descartes, Pascal, Boyle, and Leibniz that things got going.
It's difficult to think of a world without science and rational experimentation, but the whole idea is new. Before that, there was a lot of arguing from first principles, reinterpreting the ancient luminaries and using the Bible to make calculations of what was true. And all that was from cultures where literacy was not punished by death.
Morrolan
You're turning this into a question of semantics.
Some will argue (I assume this is your arguement) that Science has only been pursued and around since the Scientific Method and the modern disciplines were established. All the fun 'ologies, chemists, physics etc. In that way a Zalanthian never could or would pursue learning. It's alien. All agreed? (screw your exceptions. these are broad strokes.)
But let's exchange the word "science" for "alchemy". Is our Real-world history a bit longer now? What if we sub out "science" for our Real-world "magic"? Archimedes. Zosimus. Thomas Aquinas. Geber. All tried to find the elixir of life or turn lead into gold or pursue any of untold thousands of scientific endeavors, all before Science was Science.
That said it is a slippery slope. Really slippery. How do you make breakthroughs or discover how things work (erroneously or otherwise) without staff intervention? If your answer is "I dont. Staff" then you're already messing with a character that will be at the very least frustrating. What will you be adding to the game world? If you emote how something reacts to your inputs (adding some ground up rock makes the fire turn green etc.) without a precedent set before, you would be playing god and unilaterally making that choice. Slippery slope.
There is another topic about astronomy. Someone suggested someone actually pay attention to the lunar cycles and build a knowledge base that way. If someone (you?) can figure out how to pursue science in-game using existing code then I say go for it. If not, maybe special app and get some staff input before rolling ahead?
(none of the above touches on the feasibility of science developing on Zalanthian i.e. lack of writing, no established disciplines [church or otherwise], an abundance of Magick etc.)
There's plenty of science in Zalanthas, but it's mostly engineering sciences.
Quote from: Zoan on April 04, 2011, 06:12:26 PM
Everyone knows Muk is a Primarch. The Emperor just hasn't come yet to try and recruit him. Tektolnes is probably an agent of Chaos.
The Rotten King's with the necrons, man. That's why he tries to gem all of the psykers.
Chaos are the Dragonthralls and the kryl are the 'nids.
It'd be kind of neat if all of the background mythology turned out to be just that: mythology, and there was a perfectly reasonable scientific explanation for all of the phenomena they and their world experiences.
But I don't necessarily see a problem with making a character who is trying a rudimentary form of science, such as alchemy, astrology, biology, medicine or engineering to name a few. You want it to be something that would fit the period. It'd be kind of odd if Skagmar the Dwarf's focus was to find the Higgs Boson, though subguild Quantum Physicist would be pretty neat. Perhaps Skagmar wants to create a faster wagon, or wants to find out how quickly the moons pass. Subguild Tinkerer could probably get some mileage from a character like that.