Armageddon General Discussion Board

...one giant leap of convenience for players. Who supports the following?

100hp 100mv 100st>
contact dude
You contact the dude.

You suffer from use of the way.

100hp 100mv 65st>

psi Sorry about your carpet dude.
You send a telepathic message to the dude:
  "Sorry about your carpet dude."

You suffer from use of the way.

100hp 100mv 45st>

The dude sends you a telepathic message:
 "Yeah man that thing really tied the room together."

You suffer from use of the way.

100hp 100mv 25st>

psi It sure did Lebowski.

You send a telepathic message to the dude:
 "It sure did Lebowski."

You suffer from use of the way.

Your psionic connection begins to make you feel faint.

100hp 100mv 12mv>



Completely realistic- your PC would realize this. More playability- few people get robbed and/or killed for completely immersion breaking and disheartening reasons. I can't imagine a single argument against this that isn't petty drivel, but if you vote no I challenge you to hit me with your best.

The only adjustment I would make is "You begin to feel very faint from over-exertion." With recent changes, stun is affected by more than just psionic abilities.

I support this addition to the code.  Since it'd help not only the newbies that do not know to keep a eye on their stun.. but those that just forget. And your character would know what is going on with his own head....

I would suggest also having it trigger ONLY when something that actively drains stun occurs, not just when your stun is low.  The premier (only) example being, of course, "You suffer from use of the Way."

I don't see any reason not to do this, but in the mean time, I imagine you could probably set up your client to do the same thing. Dunno, I fail at that sort of stuff.

Death breaks my immersion, too.  I submit we revoke permadeath!  :)

You begin to feel faint.    when you hit a certain % of total stun?  20-25%?  Doesn't matter if it's combat, psionics or whatever then.
Tagged on to strikes like reeling, I don't believe it would add to the spam terribly.  It could also then accompany each of the way usage messages.

A thick figure in a duster bludgeons your head very hard.
You reel from the blow.
You begin to feel faint.

You suffer from use of the Way.
You begin to feel faint.


+1 op

Quote from: Nyr on March 25, 2011, 03:52:44 PM
Death breaks my immersion, too.  I submit we revoke permadeath!  :)

...ah.

Quote from: Nyr on March 25, 2011, 03:52:44 PM
Death breaks my immersion, too.  I submit we revoke permadeath!  :)

Was that meant as a joke or as a snide way of saying you didn't support his argument?

I'm pretty sure Nyr voted no.

I voted yes, but I have to admit that aside from helping out n00bs I don't think the addition is desperately required.

It would be nice, absolutely.

I just wouldn't think of it as a very high priority item.

So long as it didn't take too much time for one of the coders to plug in, I say sure. A warning before blacking out would be nice.

Although I wonder what would happen if you got sapped and went from being fine, to passed out in a single go.

QuoteA thick figure in a duster bludgeons your head very hard.
You reel from the blow.
You begin to feel faint.
Your vision goes black.

???

That doesn't look bad. Whats the issue?

I think it's aesthetically a bit clunky.

But that's just my opinion. I could live with that as well.

Like I said, all in all I think sure, why not? So long as it wouldn't take the coders too long to put it in.

Quote from: musashi on March 25, 2011, 05:12:49 PM
I voted yes, but I have to admit that aside from helping out n00bs I don't think the addition is desperately required.

It would be nice, absolutely.

I just wouldn't think of it as a very high priority item.

So long as it didn't take too much time for one of the coders to plug in, I say sure. A warning before blacking out would be nice.

Although I wonder what would happen if you got sapped and went from being fine, to passed out in a single go.

QuoteA thick figure in a duster bludgeons your head very hard.
You reel from the blow.
You begin to feel faint.
Your vision goes black.

???

I voted no. I don't think it would be so nice once you get that every time any stun message comes up around that %. I think you'll find that it would be very, very spammy, and serve little point ultimately. That's just my personal opinion though.

One warning at a certain percentage wouldn't be spammy.

It could be if you kept hovering around there.

I don't think I would mind it either way. I've never had a problem not noticing my stun.

Quote from: quickslash on March 25, 2011, 08:05:48 PM
One warning at a certain percentage wouldn't be spammy.

It would if it did it at anything below that percent. Say it's set at <20%, any time you gain or lose even one stun past 20% you would get that message.

Quote from: Yam on March 25, 2011, 08:09:27 PM
It could be if you kept hovering around there.

I don't think I would mind it either way. I've never had a problem not noticing my stun.

This is how I feel about it too.

I do like it.

But I would prefer "You feel faint." over "You begin to feel faint."

And it should probably be on a toggle, so those who don't like it never have to see it.

PS  On a failed constitution check, I would like it if it set off a hemote of some sort.  Let perceptive people notice that you seem a bit faint, unsteady, or something.

Quote from: Morrolan on March 25, 2011, 09:41:23 PM
I do like it.

But I would prefer "You feel faint." over "You begin to feel faint."

And it should probably be on a toggle, so those who don't like it never have to see it.

PS  On a failed constitution check, I would like it if it set off a hemote of some sort.  Let perceptive people notice that you seem a bit faint, unsteady, or something.

win

Quote from: Morrolan on March 25, 2011, 09:41:23 PM
PS  On a failed constitution check, I would like it if it set off a hemote of some sort.  Let perceptive people notice that you seem a bit faint, unsteady, or something.

This I like.

I like the ideas here, but why is this limited to stun?  Why shouldn't all of the 'points' have a similar 'low level' warning and hemote?  Why not a 'You feel pain all over and are nearing death.' message or 'You feel very tired.' or 'Your energy reserves are low' for the others?

Quote from: Morgenes on March 26, 2011, 12:06:32 AM
I like the ideas here, but why is this limited to stun?  Why shouldn't all of the 'points' have a similar 'low level' warning and hemote?  Why not a 'You feel pain all over and are nearing death.' message or 'You feel very tired.' or 'Your energy reserves are low' for the others?

To be fair, you can see if someone is 'near death' or bleeding heavily, and you can tell if they are exhausted, but you can't tell if they look out of sorts. (Have low stun).

Then following that argument we should have an indicator in look or assess that would show their apparent mental fatigue state.

Why is a warning message for stun ok, but not for hp, mana or stamina?

You really shouldn't be 'hovering' around the point where you're about to pass out, unless it was a fistfight or something :P

Quote from: Morgenes on March 26, 2011, 12:06:32 AM
I like the ideas here, but why is this limited to stun?  Why shouldn't all of the 'points' have a similar 'low level' warning and hemote?  Why not a 'You feel pain all over and are nearing death.' message or 'You feel very tired.' or 'Your energy reserves are low' for the others?

Because it's a very common problem from psionics? Most people watch their hp carefully in battle. No reason not to add it; nobody actually wants to fight to near death.

I could see stamina being very useful, though. I tend to push my character harder than most of them would psychologically go, and some kind of reminder would be helpful.

At a low level hp, I'd rather have a setting for auto-flee, ala 'wimpy' or whatever it's called in those generic MUDs. I have a horrible connection and I find it quite annoying that I'm unable to hunt or go anywhere where I could get backstabbed when my net connection is acting up, because I fear they'd be dead in the 2-5 seconds it takes to reconnect.

Maybe it could be modifiable. e.g.
> warn st 15
You will now get a warning when your stun is below 15

> warn hp 70
You will now get a warning when your health is below 70
(useful for sparring, etc)


If you don't like it, just set it to 0.
-3hp 30mv 25st>
You feel the mantis head approaching.

Quote from: Yam on March 25, 2011, 08:09:27 PM
It could be if you kept hovering around there.

Just needs hysteresis.

Quote from: Morgenes on March 26, 2011, 12:06:32 AM
I like the ideas here, but why is this limited to stun?  Why shouldn't all of the 'points' have a similar 'low level' warning and hemote?  Why not a 'You feel pain all over and are nearing death.' message or 'You feel very tired.' or 'Your energy reserves are low' for the others?

Sure. Why not?

As Smuz already said, it could be a useful IC reminder for everyone if they got messages about their characters starting to get tired or starting to look as though they're going to pass out.

For mana, while a low level warning might be good, I'm not sure if a hemote would make a lot of sense. I guess it depends on whether or not someone's mystic reserves are perceivable to the naked eye. If they are, then sure. Give it an hemote as well. I was just always under the impression that they aren't.

Quote from: Morgenes on March 26, 2011, 12:25:03 AM
Then following that argument we should have an indicator in look or assess that would show their apparent mental fatigue state.

Why is a warning message for stun ok, but not for hp, mana or stamina?

I think there -should- be an indicator if someone is at low stun similar to exhausted. Perhaps "looks faint".

I think having a 'newbie warning' that offers health/stun/move warnings would be alright. I don't really care either way, as others have stated, I have no problem keeping track of my 'points'.

Still, it'd be nice to be able to check out someone's stun status vaguely.

Quote from: Morgenes on March 26, 2011, 12:06:32 AM
I like the ideas here, but why is this limited to stun?  Why shouldn't all of the 'points' have a similar 'low level' warning and hemote?  Why not a 'You feel pain all over and are nearing death.' message or 'You feel very tired.' or 'Your energy reserves are low' for the others?

You could ultimately replace all numbers with literal descriptors, and through some method obscure the numerical values (like by randomizing or skill-checking how accurate your character's perception of their health is!) How's that for immersion?

Didn't we talk about that once before, and a lot of people hated the idea?

I vote no for the increasing pussification of the game.

If you don't have the presence of mind to watch your stun, don't use the Way.

Quote from: Malifaxis on March 26, 2011, 01:55:12 AM
I vote no for the increasing pussification of the game.

If you don't have the presence of mind to watch your stun, don't use the Way.

QFT

Nah. You should always know what's going on with your character. You're playing through them. Why shouldn't you know what their state is? A reminder helps to enfore that. It's never IC to pass out because you could't see your stun. You shouldn't ever die because you didn't see your hp was low and you forgot to wear your riding gloves and fall off your mount. These things break immursion and make people not want to play the game, so options should be there to help them.

That said I've never had trouble reading my prompt.

Given the choice, I would say 'Yes' to this - But it isn't something I'm going to go out of my way to fight for.

I say yes because it does have that noob-friendly appeal that gives the gentle reminder that, "Hey - You're about to pass out!" and it could even serve to help a few veteran players out.

How many times have you died after having played a character who had mastered the Way like the back of his/her hand - then rolled a new character and, forgetting your own skill with the Way, almost and/or did knock yourself the hell out? It's embarassing, that's for sure, and it's a mistake our characters wouldn't make - Unless their lives depended on them Waying whatever it is they had to Way, before passing out.

A generic echo to the effect of, 'You feel dizzy', would be pretty sweet.

Quote from: Malifaxis on March 26, 2011, 01:55:12 AM
I vote no for the increasing pussification of the game.

If you don't have the presence of mind to watch your stun, don't use the Way.

And here I thought I'd have a hard time finding a cool-minded, logical counter-point. You and Nyr sure put me in my place.

But like others have said, this isn't that big a deal. I tried.

Don't sweat it. There will always be the "don't change it because then it would be different" sentiment no matter what idea is on the table.

This would be one long line of code or several small ones. I'm sorry. I can't support a code change based on a false premise.

Alternative suggestions:
1. Set it up yourself in your client!
2. Look at your prompt!
3. Experiment enough so you know your character's limits!

People knocking themselves from the Way is cool. Don't take that away from the criminal element :)

I like the idea of using it as an RP reminder. Pre-set messages at 70% and 30% or thereabouts to give people reminders.

HP 70%: Pain strong enough to hamper your movement begins to accompany your exertions.
HP 30%: Your mind clouds as a feral instinct for survival kicks in!

Stam 70%: You become conscious of the taxation on your body, aware you have burned your spare energy.
Stam 30%: Every further action requires a concentrated effort as your body demands rest!

Stun 70%: Things briefly go out of focus before your mind retakes control.
Stun 30%: Your mind reels as your vision scatters dizzily about; retaining control takes a concentrated effort!

Maybe you'd rather have a variety of messages for each level. I think it would be nice to have messages like this. It reminds people to pay attention and play their character's condition realistically, without forcing specifics on the player. Having a message that warns you not to knock yourself out with The Way, or that serves as a good baseline for when you should stop sparring/run away, is an added bonus.

I vote yes.

I can't see how your character wouldn't know when he's pushing himself/herself too far. The messages for hp and stamina too sound good to me. I've had more than a few times in RL when I was close to passing out (not from drinking, either) and could definately tell.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Quote from: SMuz on March 26, 2011, 12:31:19 AM
You really shouldn't be 'hovering' around the point where you're about to pass out

Heh, that's pretty much my base state IRL  ;)

Other than that, I think I generally support hyzhenhok's version of this proposal the most.  I try not to, but in all honesty I've walked to exhaustion before while grebbing because I -knew- that I had enough left to reach the gates again.  That said, I quite like it when my PCs pass out from the Way, although it can be a bit annoying if nobody robs them or anything.  Think about it.  If you're that mentally fatigued your judgement is going to be waaaay off.  Ever heard a drunk man saying he can easily handle a few more shots?

It could be kinda cool, be I honestly don't give enough of a crap to vote either way.  Where's the 'meh' option?

I dun like it.

When people wind up passing out from fatigue or mental exhaustion etc in real life, they rarely have a sign of it beforehand (referencing things like the amazing passout on dancing with the stars and various other circumstances where people have fallen out). I also agree that if you ARE mentally taxed, your judgement is going to be off. Not to mention, not everyone gets dizzy from trying to concentrate. I've never gotten dizzy from it.

I voted yes as it's a harmless change, and something that sounds like it would be pretty easy to toggle - also seems to be something that will help those who find it hard to keep track of several lines of prompt. Considering that coders have made an accommodation for players' sight in the past (spacing out the room exits, which can be toggled), this idea seems fairly reasonable.

On the other hand this seems like something that could be set up in a decent client (something that supports triggers) easily enough, if it was needed.

Is this something which could be set to trigger with the infobar that someone wrote up for clients? I wish I could recall who offhand, but I'm sure you guys know who I'm talking about. It's a great thing, the infobar, but I need to see my stuff flashing constantly or I forget that I might be exhausted/passing out.

I tried to contact dude after reading this.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on March 26, 2011, 01:51:52 PM
I dun like it.

When people wind up passing out from fatigue or mental exhaustion etc in real life, they rarely have a sign of it beforehand (referencing things like the amazing passout on dancing with the stars and various other circumstances where people have fallen out). I also agree that if you ARE mentally taxed, your judgement is going to be off. Not to mention, not everyone gets dizzy from trying to concentrate. I've never gotten dizzy from it.

I've never heard of anyone passing out from concentrating too hard unless they had some form of medical condition. Waying seems to take a greater toll than simply concentraiting on something.

Quote from: BleakOne on March 26, 2011, 08:25:13 PM

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on March 26, 2011, 01:51:52 PM
I dun like it.

When people wind up passing out from fatigue or mental exhaustion etc in real life, they rarely have a sign of it beforehand (referencing things like the amazing passout on dancing with the stars and various other circumstances where people have fallen out). I also agree that if you ARE mentally taxed, your judgement is going to be off. Not to mention, not everyone gets dizzy from trying to concentrate. I've never gotten dizzy from it.

I've never heard of anyone passing out from concentrating too hard unless they had some form of medical condition. Waying seems to take a greater toll than simply concentraiting on something.

Therein lies the issue, though. Waying is not the only thing which takes stun. You also have watching, listening, scanning, some different magicky things, some things with spice, and some things with combat. And to say that ALL of those could/would/should/ought to throw off the same message just because you get to an arbitrary point - to keep people from having to keep track of their own pc's stuff... seems redundant and like a waste of time.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on March 26, 2011, 10:23:33 PM

Quote from: BleakOne on March 26, 2011, 08:25:13 PM

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on March 26, 2011, 01:51:52 PM
I dun like it.

When people wind up passing out from fatigue or mental exhaustion etc in real life, they rarely have a sign of it beforehand (referencing things like the amazing passout on dancing with the stars and various other circumstances where people have fallen out). I also agree that if you ARE mentally taxed, your judgement is going to be off. Not to mention, not everyone gets dizzy from trying to concentrate. I've never gotten dizzy from it.

I've never heard of anyone passing out from concentrating too hard unless they had some form of medical condition. Waying seems to take a greater toll than simply concentraiting on something.

Therein lies the issue, though. Waying is not the only thing which takes stun. You also have watching, listening, scanning, some different magicky things, some things with spice, and some things with combat. And to say that ALL of those could/would/should/ought to throw off the same message just because you get to an arbitrary point - to keep people from having to keep track of their own pc's stuff... seems redundant and like a waste of time.

Except for the rare occasions where you stack enough spice/magick/constant use skills in such a way that you would get down to the point where you can receive a message, this doesn't really apply to my suggestion.

It's not much different from the "bleeding lightly" or "looks tired" messages, except it's an entirely internal reminder, you can choose to ignore it if it doesn't make sense in that particular situation without worrying about confusing other people.

Hell, there could even be a toggle if you don't want to see it at all.

Why not have it send a message when you stun drops below the threshold, and not echo the message again until your stun raises back above the threshold.

That requires a flag though, which means it isn't a simple line of code like the topic title states which means it almost certainly won't be added until reborn.

Staff have said in the past to please not speculate on how hard something would or would not be to code and stick to the idea itself while they deal with the implementation.

So in the spirit of that, sure why not? It would cut back on the spam.

I love the idea, Spam ahead, spam on, spam alot, I personally think, spammy vs deathy, I'll take spammy everytime.  I find the mantis head spammy.

Quote from: quickslash on March 26, 2011, 03:43:54 AM
And here I thought I'd have a hard time finding a cool-minded, logical counter-point. You and Nyr sure put me in my place.

But like others have said, this isn't that big a deal. I tried.

I don't have a problem with changing it if it is not problematic to change.

My point was that passing out breaks immersion no more than death does; your argument that it breaks immersion has little to do with actual implementation or good reasons to do this.  In addition, we don't resurrect people for making mistakes that "my PC totally wouldn't have made" (like walking off of the edge of a fall room, wandering into the silt sea, or drinking cleaning fluid), so I thought this was a good tie-in to explain why I ultimately don't care very much either way, but would tend to go against implementation.  I personally am fine with the prompt as it is:  something that is an indicator as to whether or not your PC has low health, mana, move, stamina, stun, etc. 

The upside of implementation would be that you could tie in triggers from your client to these textual indicators, but you may be able to do this already with the prompt and numeric indicators.

Also, starting out your post to try and troll anyone that disagrees with you (really, any argument against your idea is petty drivel? please.) probably isn't the best way to get support.  You have historically tended to belittle anyone else's opinions about this game.  I'd recommend against it if you don't want to get called out on it.

Quote from: Nyr on March 25, 2011, 03:52:44 PM
Death breaks my immersion, too.  I submit we revoke permadeath!  :)

Quote from: Nyr on March 27, 2011, 10:09:05 AM
My point was that passing out breaks immersion no more than death does; your argument that it breaks immersion has little to do with actual implementation or good reasons to do this.

One of these responses was snarky, and explains very little of your point. The other is more eloquent, and actually suggests that in some way you agree or understand what was suggested.


Take it from a guy that constantly says you staff are dicks, when most of the time you aren't: Players making suggestions, only to have staff (who are perceived superiors in decision making) give one-liner sarcasm breeds discontent. You're better than that, Nyr.

Quote from: Nyr on March 27, 2011, 10:09:05 AM

Quote from: quickslash on March 26, 2011, 03:43:54 AM
And here I thought I'd have a hard time finding a cool-minded, logical counter-point. You and Nyr sure put me in my place.

But like others have said, this isn't that big a deal. I tried.

I don't have a problem with changing it if it is not problematic to change.

My point was that passing out breaks immersion no more than death does; your argument that it breaks immersion has little to do with actual implementation or good reasons to do this.  In addition, we don't resurrect people for making mistakes that "my PC totally wouldn't have made" (like walking off of the edge of a fall room, wandering into the silt sea, or drinking cleaning fluid), so I thought this was a good tie-in to explain why I ultimately don't care very much either way, but would tend to go against implementation.  I personally am fine with the prompt as it is:  something that is an indicator as to whether or not your PC has low health, mana, move, stamina, stun, etc.  

The upside of implementation would be that you could tie in triggers from your client to these textual indicators, but you may be able to do this already with the prompt and numeric indicators.

Also, starting out your post to try and troll anyone that disagrees with you (really, any argument against your idea is petty drivel? please.) probably isn't the best way to get support.  You have historically tended to belittle anyone else's opinions about this game.  I'd recommend against it if you don't want to get called out on it.

Have I? I'll try to be more like you in the future.

I almost went back and edited that out to make it sound less snippy, but then I figured "No, people will understand that I'm just trying to stave off snide comments."

And back on topic, "immersion-breaking" was only one adjective I used in a relatively long post. I don't know why you have a problem with that.

I vote YES.


We have a newbie flag, right?

Why not implemented it as togglable from the newbie flag.   ?

Quote from: Riev on March 27, 2011, 02:57:19 PM
Take it from a guy that constantly says you staff are dicks, when most of the time you aren't

Why, with those credentials, how can I not?  I welcome the endorsement.  As mentioned, though, I'm going off of past GDB behavior in this case (particularly the most recent thread created by the OP that had to be locked).  As it is, I put a smiley on a one-liner and voted because it didn't appear that thoughtful discourse was being sought.

Quote from: quickslash on March 27, 2011, 07:12:05 PM

Quote from: Nyr on March 27, 2011, 10:09:05 AM
You have historically tended to belittle anyone else's opinions about this game.  I'd recommend against it if you don't want to get called out on it.

Have I?

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40759.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40640.0.html

Yes, consistently, in 3 of 3 public topics you have created.  If you want your opinions, thoughts, feelings, suggestions, etc. to be taken seriously by staff and other players (you've done a lot better, for what it's worth), tone it down, and don't get bent out of shape when people disagree with you.

Quote from: quickslash on March 27, 2011, 07:12:05 PM
And back on topic, "immersion-breaking" was only one adjective I used in a relatively long post. I don't know why you have a problem with that.

I only have a problem with it because it isn't true.  This is definitely an idea based on convenience for players, and I think almost anyone would agree that it would be more convenient (triggers are easier to shoot off based on specific text input regardless of the client, as far as I can tell).  I'm not sure about the rest of the playability argument, but that part of it is not true (passing out is IC).

At any rate, it looks as though it may be looked into (unsure, though).  Good luck.