I was thinking about this for awhile.
Why do merchants get EVERY tradeskill in the game? it renders the "weaponscrafter" ect subguilds useless. My personal belief is that they should get there guild main skills and there subguild skills.
Arguement to be proceded below.
Go...
Weaponsmith can't master weaponsmithing. Only merchant class can master the different crafts.
The point of a subguild is to flesh out your character's lifestyle, not to define it. The main guild, would define it from a coded skill perspective (obviously the RP defines it in all other aspects).
Merchant is the "master crafter." Weaponsmith is the "talented lackey who will never be the master."
So if you want to play the role of someone who is capable of being the best, you would -not- rely on your subguild to do that for you. You would pick Merchant.
Only a Master Crafter (i.e. Merchant mastered in any given crafting skill) can have unique or custom designed items made for them or their customers.
Lizzie said it well. I would add that it is entirely possible to play a merchant as if you did not have every crafting skill in the game, and just focus upon crafts that are important to your PC, and that some people do seem to manage to do this. Therefore, merchants get every crafting skill so that the player can pick and choose what to actually focus on, being a crafter.
Merchants don't "get" every tradeskill in the game. They have to work for most of them (or choose the appropriate subguild if you want a head start).
Those guilds are not useless, even for a merchant.
Quote from: Marshmellow on January 21, 2011, 11:12:55 AM
Those guilds are not useless, even for a merchant.
How so? it's just a headstart for the merchants. They can master every craft.
I just think that if a merchant is a weaponsmaker, they can master thse skills and here main skills.. it just makes sense to me. instead of a whole clan relyin' on one crafter to make EVERYTHING, they have to hire more.
Yeah, it would probably raise in game prices too.
And in return, the merchant can't do anything remotely resembling combat on anything remotely resembling the scale of any other guild in the game.
It's a tradeoff. If you want to be awesome at a skill, pick a guild that has that skill. For crafting, this is Merchant.
Quote from: Wasteland Raider on January 21, 2011, 11:38:01 AM
And in return, the merchant can't do anything remotely resembling combat on anything remotely resembling the scale of any other guild in the game.
It's a tradeoff. If you want to be awesome at a skill, pick a guild that has that skill. For crafting, this is Merchant.
Lies and deciet. I know of two merchants that can hold there own againt carru.
Wasteland Raider is absolutely and completely correct. Your two merchants either aren't guild merchants, got lucky, or have spent enough time training in combat that they aren't immediately annihilated.
Quote from: Nyr on January 21, 2011, 12:23:18 PM
Wasteland Raider is absolutely and completely correct. Your two merchants either aren't guild merchants, got lucky, or have spent enough time training in combat that they aren't immediately annihilated.
And let's not forget the importance of stats for low skill combatants. I've never seen it myself, but I could believe that a high strength, well-outfitted, and trained guild merchant could handle a carru in a pinch. Any other guild with the same stats, gear, and training would perform way and beyond superior to the merchant, though.
You don't need combat skills to be adequate in combat. Sure, 45-day Merchant and 45-day Warrior won't be anywhere on the same level, but a Merchant can survive on their own and indeed hunt. I've done it.
I'm also not sure what the objection to what I said last was. I said that crafter sub-guilds are not made obsolete by the fact that the Merchant guild gets all those skills, because a Merchant with a crafter sub-guild isn't a bad decision in some cases.
Is your beef that ONLY Merchant guild characters can master crafting skills? (Not true, by the way.)
Quote from: Marshmellow on January 21, 2011, 01:26:02 PM
You don't need combat skills to be adequate in combat. Sure, 45-day Merchant and 45-day Warrior won't be anywhere on the same level, but a Merchant can survive on their own and indeed hunt. I've done it.
I'm also not sure what the objection to what I said last was. I said that crafter sub-guilds are not made obsolete by the fact that the Merchant guild gets all those skills, because a Merchant with a crafter sub-guild isn't a bad decision in some cases.
Is your beef that ONLY Merchant guild characters can master crafting skills? (Not true, by the way.)
I've always been under the impression that true "master" level in a crafting skill is only attainable by Guild:Merchant, and is unattainable for a subguild:crafter.
As an example, I point out the character I had at the time when the change to allowing us to see our characters' skill levels came in. My character was (guild which was not guild:merchant) and subguild:tailor. At the time, they'd practiced quite a lot on their clothworking skills and I was feeling quite proficient with their level of expertise. Then along came the change that allowed us to see their skill level, and lo and behold, they were at "Master" level in their craft. My immediate thought was "Huh..I thought a sub-guild couldn't get that high?" I quarried a staff member, IG, about that. Turns out I was right. Their skill was demoted to "Advanced." I was not upset about this change. Yes, being slightly less proficient than I'd grown used to was a little saddening, but I was far more satisfied with being in line with how the game was supposed to be.
Also, there is the coded designated "Master" skill level, and there is the "Allowed to submit and have implemented new master-crafted items" level. Only the Merchant_guild is allowed to have new items created via submission/implementation.
Being a master at a crafting skill is not comparable to being a master at combat for a couple reasons. Although a merchant can craft all items of the skill once a master, they have to rely on the knowledge of HOW to make the item, as well as required to gather the necessary materials. Except for the staff (who probably don't even know all the possible crafting recipes without looking them up) there's no way to be a complete "master" at a crafting skill where you can make every single recipe. There are also limitations based on clan and so on.
A master warrior on the other hand only needs to pick up a suitable weapon and type "kill", for the most part. A master crafter in weaponsmaking might have a higher success rate on making weapons, but if they don't know the required materials, they're just as good as an amateur.
I think that for one balances things out. There's other reasons, which the previous posters have mentioned already (such as lack of combat skills, etc). Merchants are pretty much the ultimate mundane support class, as they need to rely on other guilds almost exclusively to get most things done.
What was the point of this thread? Hate is a strong word, and it doesn't sound like the OP really "hates" the merchant guild so much as wants to complain about imbalance... or am I reading into the post too much? There's benefits and disadvantages to all the guilds. They don't all have to be equal in strength, and you don't have to like all of them to still enjoy playing Arm.
On the same token, there are plenty of people who pick fighting-based guilds but then decide to make gobs and gobs of money doing the business of a merchant -- which is also not fair.
I'm not sure if two unfairs make a fair, but it does tend to balance out.
@Pale Horse: What I was referencing is not common knowledge, but it is still factual. There are some crafting skills that can be mastered by people that are not Merchants. I will say no more on that specifically, but did feel the need to say it so that people do not freak out when they come across the situation or situations where a non-Merchant can get master in a craft skill. It is always recommended that you check when you think something is wrong.
For most crafting skills, however, Merchants are indeed the only people that can master the skill.
The only thing to "hate" about guild_merchant is when people start treating said merchant as an item vendor rather than a person.
I don't understand this thread.
It's like asking why rangers are so good at hunting...it makes the hunter subguild useless.
Why are rangers so good with a bow, it makes the archer subguild useless.
Why are pick pockets so good at picking pockets...it makes the thief subguild useless.
Is there an actual point here?
You can craft well with a subclass.
Training multiple unrelated crafting skills is a pain in the ass.
Playing a merchant is an exercise in patience and probably masochism.
I imagine the request side of being a master merchant would also be very different depending on subguild and training. I would think a merchant who has the subguild to craft weapons would be able to request, upon reaching master in another crafting field, for the once a month request from that skill instead with as much success as if they stuck with the skill there life is meant to be based on?
It's a tradeoff. If you want to be awesome at a skill, pick a guild that has that skill. For crafting, this is Merchant.
[/quote]
Lies and deciet. I know of two merchants that can hold there own againt carru.
[/quote]
I've played a few merchants before. Sure they can hunt a little and be fairly good at it. But it's like the guy that makes knives, they'll never be as good, nor as good in combat as a warrior. I, too, don't get this tread, if you are jealous of merchant play one. Personally, I've always enjoyed playing Rangers more then I do a merchant. But it is a completely different challenge to play the merchant.
I've played a few merchants before. Sure they can hunt a little and be fairly good at it. But it's like the guy that makes knives, they'll never be as good, nor as good in combat as a warrior. I, too, don't get this tread, if you are jealous of merchants play one. Personally, I've always enjoyed playing Rangers more then I do a merchant. But it is a completely different challenge to play the merchant.
Quote from: Agnor on January 21, 2011, 06:23:22 PM
I imagine the request side of being a master merchant would also be very different depending on subguild and training. I would think a merchant who has the subguild to craft weapons would be able to request, upon reaching master in another crafting field, for the once a month request from that skill instead with as much success as if they stuck with the skill there life is meant to be based on?
You get one item creation request per month. You must be a "master" in the craft. You may pick any craft that you have mastered. My merchant was not particularly dedicated to any craft but rather made it his business to learn the ins-and-outs of everything his Merchant House made. I had many, many crafts at master (this is usual for longer-lived merchants) and I sent master-craft requests for whatever craft suited my whim that month.
Very few subguilds, in my semi-limited experience, can master the crafts with which they begin. For that reason, I usually don't find the crafting subguilds that attractive unless they really are the foundation of a particular concept. "I'm a really crappy knife maker who's fallen on hard times because ... I'm really crappy at making knives and ALWAYS will be!" (That's a hypothetical example).
A ranger with a crafting subguild can make quite a bit more money quite a bit more easily than a merchant, for the simple fact that no matter how good the haggle skill is, and no matter how fail-proof your (master) skill is, being able to get your own raw materials basically free of charge (okay, nominal cost for stabling fees) beats the hell out of both combined. Free food and water is also a big cost-saver. Also, you can easily get the items you need when you need them, instead of waiting around begging for people to "PLEEEEASE go out and forage loreshi reeds PLEEEEAAASE I'LL GIVE YOU FIFTY 'SID APIECE EVEN THOUGH THAT'S A RIDICULOUS PRICE BECAUSE FOR A SOLID RL MONTH NOBODY HAS TAKEN ME UP ON MY OFFER OF TWENTY-FIVE WHICH IS ALSO RIDICULOUS."
It's not even that much more dangerous, really. Hell, it's probably safer, if you discount the danger of NPCs (which is largely manageable if you're experienced), since most apartments are about as secure as a cardboard box. When you're a ranger and someone breaks into your place while you're spam-crafting, at least you've got a weapon skill, parry, and poison to even up the odds a bit. If you're a merchant, you might as well invite the chap in and help him load his lootbag up. Might even invite you along so you can haggle the prices up for him while he's selling your loot.
Synthesis, a clever Merchant guild character can get PLENTY of materials without having to see another PC... enough to make said Merchant guild character very rich, complete with mastering and branching skills.
Sure, at great personal risk. Merchant combat never gets beyond about the level of a 5-day burglar...if you really want to go all-in when you've got the equivalent of a pair of 4's in your hand, I suppose that's your business.
Effort-to-effort and risk-to-risk, the odds are easily stacked in favor of the ranger/crafter (or warrior/crafter). The only advantage merchants really have is the fact that you (if you're reasonable) will never be tempted to take the sort of risks that get rangers and warriors killed prematurely (these risks generally don't involve gathering resources to craft with, so they're not included in the pure crafting risk-reward calculation), because you'll know for certain that the probability of success is 0. When you get bored with crafting and you're a merchant, your only real option is to go idle at the bar...rangers and warriors tend to go looking for trouble.
Quote from: Marshmellow on January 21, 2011, 09:45:42 PM
Synthesis, a clever Merchant guild character can get PLENTY of materials without having to see another PC... enough to make said Merchant guild character very rich, complete with mastering and branching skills.
Quite frankly, I daresay a character could achieve some degree of success without any visible coded skills *or* seeing other PCs. It would just be rather difficult and take a great deal of carefulness.
Like a merchant character seeking to provide all his own materials.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 21, 2011, 11:12:25 PM...if you really want to go all-in when you've got the equivalent of a pair of 4's in your hand, I suppose that's your business.
Hey, if you can bluff everyone else out, why not? ;)
Quote from: Marshmellow on January 21, 2011, 01:26:02 PM
You don't need combat skills to be adequate in combat. Sure, 45-day Merchant and 45-day Warrior won't be anywhere on the same level, but a Merchant can survive on their own and indeed hunt. I've done it.
I'm also not sure what the objection to what I said last was. I said that crafter sub-guilds are not made obsolete by the fact that the Merchant guild gets all those skills, because a Merchant with a crafter sub-guild isn't a bad decision in some cases.
Is your beef that ONLY Merchant guild characters can master crafting skills? (Not true, by the way.)
My beef is what you said at the begining. Yes, A merchant wont ever be the same as a warrior of the same age. BUT, I know, for a fact, Merchants can kick butt, given time. Especially since most merchants are Wisdom specced, there hidden skills of Attack and Defense, will increase very fast.
I have gotten my but kicked by a merchant as a ranger. Granted the merchant was MUCH older. Merchants can't be counted out of combat.
And they still have the ability to master every craft....
I mean, i guess I could see them learning to like Journeyman in the other crafts. But Why should a merchant who;s background is weapons, master jewlery and woodworking? It doesn't make much sense to me.
Um, no. A merchant can NOT kick butt later. He can flick ears quite effectively, but kick butt? Hardly.
Quote from: Fredd on January 22, 2011, 12:29:55 AM
I mean, i guess I could see them learning to like Journeyman in the other crafts. But Why should a merchant who;s background is weapons, master jewlery and woodworking? It doesn't make much sense to me.
This confuses me too, not that they can reach the skill level but that they can request the ability to craft an item that has never been seen before, from any crafting background they have mastered potentially. I thought that was meant to represent the lifetime of work they had put in to their area of crafting expertise, but any merchant can essentially become Da Vinci given time?
Quote from: Marshmellow on January 22, 2011, 01:02:56 AM
Um, no. A merchant can NOT kick butt later. He can flick ears quite effectively, but kick butt? Hardly.
Killing a carru or gith is butt-kicking enough for me.
Yeah, I'm going to have go with "unlikely" on that one.
Quote from: Semper on January 21, 2011, 02:32:42 PM
What was the point of this thread? Hate is a strong word, and it doesn't sound like the OP really "hates" the merchant guild so much as wants to complain about imbalance... or am I reading into the post too much? There's benefits and disadvantages to all the guilds. They don't all have to be equal in strength, and you don't have to like all of them to still enjoy playing Arm.
being disadvantaged is something everyone on Arm knows. if nothing else, you don't know mirrukim or something.
i think merchants are honestly disadvantaged compared to most people, since there are things out there that want to eat you and they're the least prepared to deal with that.
Quote from: Cindy42 on January 22, 2011, 02:45:53 AM
Quote from: Semper on January 21, 2011, 02:32:42 PM
What was the point of this thread? Hate is a strong word, and it doesn't sound like the OP really "hates" the merchant guild so much as wants to complain about imbalance... or am I reading into the post too much? There's benefits and disadvantages to all the guilds. They don't all have to be equal in strength, and you don't have to like all of them to still enjoy playing Arm.
being disadvantaged is something everyone on Arm knows. if nothing else, you don't know mirrukim or something.
i think merchants are honestly disadvantaged compared to most people, since there are things out there that want to eat you and they're the least prepared to deal with that.
I'll give you that. They are the least prepaired, and it takes a good while for them to get any amount of skill in combat. But still. Pickpockets don't learn to pick locks. (unless i'm missing something) Why should a weapons merchant make jewlery is what I'm saying.
And your right, I dont HATE them, it was just a good thread name.
"weapons merchant" is just their job title. You can be a pick pocket/thief who is a "weapons merchant". Or a "merchant" for that matter. Or "body guard", "assassin"... etc...
Please stop stating that a merchant -has- to be a merchant. They could just as quickly -never- craft a thing. I don't think it's unfair for a crafter to be able to craft. Making things just make sense to them.
I myself am a firm believer that -everyone- should be able to craft. But have a .01 chance at succeeding. Because I like to waste items in the spirit of roleplay. And also hate it when I have to give back the items I was trying to craft or junk them because I -obviously- don't have that skill. but that's not what this thread is about. Excuse me. ;)
Quote from: Chettaman on January 22, 2011, 06:58:22 AM
"weapons merchant" is just their job title. You can be a pick pocket/thief who is a "weapons merchant". Or a "merchant" for that matter. Or "body guard", "assassin"... etc...
Please stop stating that a merchant -has- to be a merchant. They could just as quickly -never- craft a thing. I don't think it's unfair for a crafter to be able to craft. Making things just make sense to them.
I myself am a firm believer that -everyone- should be able to craft. But have a .01 chance at succeeding. Because I like to waste items in the spirit of roleplay. And also hate it when I have to give back the items I was trying to craft or junk them because I -obviously- don't have that skill. but that's not what this thread is about. Excuse me. ;)
never said they had to. i've seen merchant hunters.
What I said Is I dislike a merchant/weaponcrafter making jewlery and furnature. it doesnt make sense.
Quote from: Fredd on January 22, 2011, 07:43:56 AM
Quote from: Chettaman on January 22, 2011, 06:58:22 AM
"weapons merchant" is just their job title. You can be a pick pocket/thief who is a "weapons merchant". Or a "merchant" for that matter. Or "body guard", "assassin"... etc...
Please stop stating that a merchant -has- to be a merchant. They could just as quickly -never- craft a thing. I don't think it's unfair for a crafter to be able to craft. Making things just make sense to them.
I myself am a firm believer that -everyone- should be able to craft. But have a .01 chance at succeeding. Because I like to waste items in the spirit of roleplay. And also hate it when I have to give back the items I was trying to craft or junk them because I -obviously- don't have that skill. but that's not what this thread is about. Excuse me. ;)
never said they had to. i've seen merchant hunters.
What I said Is I dislike a merchant/weaponcrafter making jewlery and furnature. it doesnt make sense.
That is more of a roleplay issue than anything else. If the merchant/weaponcrafter PC's background involves making and selling weapons, hopefully that PC has a good reason to branch out into other fields besides "I branched". That is more of a question of roleplaying branching in general, for all guilds, though.
Quote from: Agnor on January 22, 2011, 01:15:00 AM
any merchant can essentially become Da Vinci given time?
Correct.
From my observation, however, most master-crafting is done in weapons, armor, jewelry, or clothing. Most people aren't master-crafting baskets or hide-scrapers (though, personally, I think that would be awesome). Also, if you are affiliated with an organization like a merchant house, there will be huge pressure toward making the House's specialties for its VIP customers.
Quote from: Thunkkin on January 22, 2011, 08:33:16 AM
Quote from: Agnor on January 22, 2011, 01:15:00 AM
any merchant can essentially become Da Vinci given time?
Correct.
From my observation, however, most master-crafting is done in weapons, armor, jewelry, or clothing. Most people aren't master-crafting baskets or hide-scrapers (though, personally, I think that would be awesome). Also, if you are affiliated with an organization like a merchant house, there will be huge pressure toward making the House's specialties for its VIP customers.
Bah ... you know, I'm going to wind up playing an elven merchant someday just because people keep talking about elves and merchants and making them sound cool and have neat ideas for them.
And I'm probably going to hate it.
Someday.
Quote from: Fredd on January 22, 2011, 07:43:56 AM
never said they had to. i've seen merchant hunters.
What I said Is I dislike a merchant/weaponcrafter making jewlery and furnature. it doesnt make sense.
help subguild
Quote
Subguilds are intended to round out characters with regards to their primary guild. They are not substitutes for a primary guild.
I think it makes sense. A merchant can make lots of stuff:
Quote
Furthermore, they have great talent in many forms of crafting, from simple cups to intricate forms of weaponry.
Since you can't see the guilds or subguilds of other people, this shouldn't be too bothersome. Subguilds are there to round out PCs. Ranger/thief PCs may have just a light background in theft and focus way more on hunting; this isn't bad (considering subguilds are generally not replacements for a primary guild). It's not really up to the player whether something makes sense for the RP of another player, though. Let staff determine that. If you have a complaint against someone, put it in the request queue. We can take a look, though I honestly have never seen a complaint about a merchant with a crafting subguild learning to craft stuff from their main guild, because at its core, the complaint is "I don't like it that merchants can craft." Their many disadvantages may not be obvious to you until you actually play one and see the work that goes into the rare cases of merchants that have some mediocre measure of combat.
Go play a merchant, you may be surprised at how difficult it is.
Quote from: Fredd on January 22, 2011, 01:45:55 AM
Quote from: Marshmellow on January 22, 2011, 01:02:56 AM
Um, no. A merchant can NOT kick butt later. He can flick ears quite effectively, but kick butt? Hardly.
Killing a carru or gith is butt-kicking enough for me.
Remember that everyone's a hero when you got a dozen PCs ganging up on something. ;) I remember the abject lesson I got in "OH SHIT" when I went from smacking gith around with my insane-o warrior and company, to giving it a go with my lone Elkran. Yeeeeesh, that was emotional.
As far as balance goes? There is no real balance in this game. Any guild that is long-lived and regularly uses their skills is simply going to be insanely powerful. Some guilds display that power in different ways. Some power is "better". The only guild I would say could truly do it all is a sorcerer, and even that comes with some severe disadvantages and caveats.
A master-crafting merchant that through a very long time of play can mostly defend themselves? Congratulations to them, because that's a long, long road to that point.
Quote from: Nyr on January 22, 2011, 10:00:22 AM
Quote from: Fredd on January 22, 2011, 07:43:56 AM
never said they had to. i've seen merchant hunters.
What I said Is I dislike a merchant/weaponcrafter making jewlery and furnature. it doesnt make sense.
help subguild
Quote
Subguilds are intended to round out characters with regards to their primary guild. They are not substitutes for a primary guild.
I think it makes sense. A merchant can make lots of stuff:
Quote
Furthermore, they have great talent in many forms of crafting, from simple cups to intricate forms of weaponry.
Since you can't see the guilds or subguilds of other people, this shouldn't be too bothersome. Subguilds are there to round out PCs. Ranger/thief PCs may have just a light background in theft and focus way more on hunting; this isn't bad (considering subguilds are generally not replacements for a primary guild). It's not really up to the player whether something makes sense for the RP of another player, though. Let staff determine that. If you have a complaint against someone, put it in the request queue. We can take a look, though I honestly have never seen a complaint about a merchant with a crafting subguild learning to craft stuff from their main guild, because at its core, the complaint is "I don't like it that merchants can craft." Their many disadvantages may not be obvious to you until you actually play one and see the work that goes into the rare cases of merchants that have some mediocre measure of combat.
Go play a merchant, you may be surprised at how difficult it is.
it's not a complaint on a player, and I have played merchants in the past.
it's more a "i just don't see it" type thing
Here's why it makes IC sense that guilds are more powerful than sub-classes: sub-guilds are there to round out a character. The PC may have picked it up along the way (such as a bynner learns to hold their liquor or a hunter learns to make their own gear) or maybe it's just a personal knack (flexibility, conning) GUILDS, however, reflect the PC's main focus thus far. The merchant has learned the business, they've learned how to spot quality work. While a combat type has honed and learned to pick up on different weapon techniques, or pick-pockets on how to spot a good "mark", a merchant has learned how to form patterns for cloth/leather working or how to finely tune tools to create detail work.
Something, if you didn't figure out already, is that like all guilds many of the merchant's skills are branched -- they don't know everything right out the gate.
Also, remember some people do make special requests. I often just figure anyone really, unbalanced (code wise) is a special request.
Quote from: My 2 sids on January 22, 2011, 11:01:33 AM
I often just figure anyone really, unbalanced (code wise) is a special request.
My own experience with special apps leads me
NOT to suspect this in most situations. Perhaps it was different in the past, but in order to get unusual skills and/or higher skill caps, you must give up an equal or greater amount. For instance, I once spec apped having a crafting skill's CAP raised from advanced to master. This was a crafting skill that my character would have had anyway both via guild and sub-guild. In return, I had to have one of my guild's core skills lowered to apprentice with the knowledge that I would never get the two other skills that branched from it. I wanted the character concept badly enough that I considered this a fair trade. So, to get a completely not powerful skill (that my char would have had anyway) from advanced to master, I basically had to sacrifice three other skills. I was happy with this, but it didn't result in an overpowered character.
I imagine most people who special app "a merchant but with disarm, kick, and backstab added!" will be smacked down unless it's something the staff want for a very specific reason. My experience might be abnormal, however. In most cases, it's safe to assume that a kick-ass person is able to kick ass for a variety of reasons other than a spec app.
Your experience is NOT abnormal, Thunkinn. Special applications get slapped around more than normal applications and get more restrictions (often enough) than normal applications do. Unless you're asking for something almost completely useless (like I had a character start with two accents once), you'll also be giving something up.
I somewhat agree with the op in that I'd rather the "main" crafting subguilds turned into individual guilds, and the rest of the stuff merchant guilds get tacked on each one, like the language, and ride, and stuff. And then just do away with the merchant class all together.
It makes a lot more sense to me to have clothiers, smithies, stoneworkers, and so on, than jack of all trade sorts. I kind of liken it to having a guild that mixes Warrior/assassin or Ranger/Burglar. Seems like a bit much for one guild.
For whatever reason, when I first made a subguild crafter, I was really disappointed with what I was able to do when compared to the Merchant guild... It felt like a wasted subguild, with what I had planned for the character. With was a warrior/weaponsmith type role. I don't remember what it was exactly, but it felt a whole lot like: "Oh... I can't even make the type of weapons my character uses? Lame."
Problem with that idea, is that the GMHs often make use of multiple disciplines. And in fact, some crafted items require multiple disciplines to complete. You're suggestion would require that the GMH employers have at least one of each type of crafter employed. And if one dies, there is no one else to pick up the slack. And if none of the other players happen to pick clothworker as their guild that month, Kadius would just have to do without anyone capable of sewing a piece of linen into a pair of pants. It's hard enough trying to find interested guild_merchant PCs to hire, who are worth having, who will be useful, interesting, interested employees. Having to hire one of each would be madness.
Seems like most of the disagreements leveled at the Merchant guild will be cleared up by the introduction of the Arm2 guilds. If I remember right, isn't the plan to split the class into "Merchant" which has the haggle, value, etc. type skills, and "Artisan" which has the crafting skills?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 22, 2011, 09:50:23 PM
For whatever reason, when I first made a subguild crafter, I was really disappointed with what I was able to do when compared to the Merchant guild... It felt like a wasted subguild, with what I had planned for the character. With was a warrior/weaponsmith type role. I don't remember what it was exactly, but it felt a whole lot like: "Oh... I can't even make the type of weapons my character uses? Lame."
My last warrior was a warrior/weaponcrafter, and he pretty much kicked ass. Sure, you fail at crafting quite a bit, but it doesn't really matter when you're enough of a badass to basically keep yourself infinitely supplied with tarantula fangs or whatever else you're using to craft with. I think he joined the Byn at something like 5 days and he already had an apartment in Tuluk, an apartment in Allanak, and three separate matched sets of armor.
Protip: if you want wooden poles for spears, find a merchant PC in Allanak or Red Storm and offer to haul logs in for him if he'll give you the poles for free (or at a nominal cost). I guarantee he'll take you up on that offer for at least a RL week or two, just to get over the lumberjacking branch, because it's such a pain down south.
Also, I submitted a recipe for a spearmaking craft that's pretty cool and doesn't use any kind of wooden pole. You'll have to figure that one out, though.
Quote from: Pale Horse on January 22, 2011, 11:05:50 PM
Seems like most of the disagreements leveled at the Merchant guild will be cleared up by the introduction of the Arm2 guilds. If I remember right, isn't the plan to split the class into "Merchant" which has the haggle, value, etc. type skills, and "Artisan" which has the crafting skills?
See that would be awesome if done right.
I'd rather focus on the current game and making it better, than get my hopes up that "Everything will be right and awesome" in Arm 2.0. It irks me whenever someone says "Well ain't it great that all this stuff you want will be in this other game that doesn't exist?" I want it in a game I can and do play. Not one that I might play.
Yeah, RGS, that'd be great except that we KNOW they're going to do Arm2.0. Why continue to develop this game when we KNOW that it'll end? I'd rather they concentrate on finishing it so we can just find out if you're going to play or not.
Quote from: Marshmellow on January 24, 2011, 03:02:00 AM
Yeah, RGS, that'd be great except that we KNOW they're going to do Arm2.0.
It may be unfair, but many have doubts about this statement.
Either way, various coders have done some really important and valuable changes to THIS game in the last few years. I'm glad they did. Many builders have added new crafts (the leather armor push a while back was awesome). I'm glad they did. Staff have begun to allow changes and building projects again. I'm glad on that score, too. Arm 2.0 may be coming ... but that doesn't mean it will arrive before 2015 or 2016. Or ever.
That said, I don't think the staff will do a major overhaul to the entire guild system in Arm 1.0. Smaller changes, however, seem quite possible and potentially quite valuable.
There's something going on that you don't know about here, Fredd, I guarantee it.
I've played a long run merchant d-elf who fought -every day- I played him, because that's just how it tends to be with d-elf merchants. Had decent stats, too. I fought quirri, carru, tembo, and sometimes I'd do a take down, but most times I'd have to run for help.
Is it impossible for a merchant to take a carru? No. Is it improbable? Yes?
Do you pretty much have to be a twink to do it? Absolutely. Or you have to have a lot of time on the PC, and be an excellent player.
lol, badass merchants. Ahaha... ah... ha... ha.... Even pickpockets get more swoosh in combat than merchants, and if you think about it like that--there should be no doubt in your mind just how much merchants suck at combat operations.
Quote from: Is Friday on January 24, 2011, 05:10:27 PM
lol, badass merchants. Ahaha... ah... ha... ha.... Even pickpockets get more swoosh in combat than merchants, and if you think about it like that--there should be no doubt in your mind just how much merchants suck at combat operations.
We should have had our merchants spar.
Quote from: Is Friday on January 24, 2011, 05:10:27 PM
lol, badass merchants. Ahaha... ah... ha... ha.... Even pickpockets get more swoosh in combat than merchants, and if you think about it like that--there should be no doubt in your mind just how much merchants suck at combat operations.
It's cute when people make pickpockets out to be horrible, when they're roughly the same as several others and gain skills for combat that others do not get.
Half giant merchants could probably routinely take down a carru.
Otherwise, yes within the last few years merchants have gotten a boost to combat, as far as I can tell as a non-Staff. I could see them taking down a carru, I just doubt routinely, and I doubt the strong ones vs the weak ones.
I kind of like that they get all the crafting. If one was to balance them, I would leave them as is, just make it so more of a proportion of the "good" stuff had clan flags, so that you needed to be clanned to make it.
Yeah, I'm with Armaddict. Pick-pockets ain't nothing on warriors/rangers/assassins, or even on burglars, but they're still gods compared to merchants of equal combat experience.
I'm surprised all these veterans are talking about how impossible it is for a merchant to kill a carru. It's quite easy to see how that's possible.
Merchants have ride.
So it's not really the merchants that are overpowered; it's mounted combat.
i love being a merchant. ;D though i doubt one of my chars did something to you that would make you hate them.
i don't know why, in real life and thus in ARM, i love creating junk out of other junk.
if you're happening to be walking around columbus and see a handknit scarf on a homeless person there's A 20% chance i made it.
Quote from: Cindy42 on January 25, 2011, 03:28:46 AM
if you're happening to be walking around columbus and see a handknit scarf on a homeless person there's A 20% chance i made it.
You just keep getting more awesome.
back on topic. Again, it's not there fighting ability really it's just that it doesn't make sense to me that they get to make EVERYTHING.
Quote from: Fredd on January 25, 2011, 07:29:28 AM
Quote from: Cindy42 on January 25, 2011, 03:28:46 AM
if you're happening to be walking around columbus and see a handknit scarf on a homeless person there's A 20% chance i made it.
You just keep getting more awesome.
back on topic. Again, it's not there fighting ability really it's just that it doesn't make sense to me that they get to make EVERYTHING.
Put it this way:
Merchant gets to make everything except [redacted.]
Warrior gets every combat skill except [redacted.]
Burglar gets every criminal skill except [redacted.]
Assassin gets every murder skill -and- many warrior skills, but doesn't get [redacted.]
Ranger gets all outdoorsy skills except [redacted.]
On the other hand, if all you want is some random dune-hopper who can make armor and trade it in the different centers of commerce, you can do a ranger/armorsmith. You'll never be a "master armorsmith" to the point where you can make custom items for individuals. But you'll still be pretty damned awesome. PLUS - you'll be able to defend yourself, hunt down the hides and chitin, skin it yourself, find your own food and water, live outside the cities, find your way around the deserts with ease even in a sandstorm, be able to maneuver yourself at night with no moons, and stay just that one step ahead of your prey at all times.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 25, 2011, 07:39:12 AM
Quote from: Fredd on January 25, 2011, 07:29:28 AM
Quote from: Cindy42 on January 25, 2011, 03:28:46 AM
if you're happening to be walking around columbus and see a handknit scarf on a homeless person there's A 20% chance i made it.
You just keep getting more awesome.
back on topic. Again, it's not there fighting ability really it's just that it doesn't make sense to me that they get to make EVERYTHING.
Put it this way:
Merchant gets to make everything except [redacted.]
Warrior gets every combat skill except [redacted.]
Burglar gets every criminal skill except [redacted.]
Assassin gets every murder skill -and- many warrior skills, but doesn't get [redacted.]
Ranger gets all outdoorsy skills except [redacted.]
On the other hand, if all you want is some random dune-hopper who can make armor and trade it in the different centers of commerce, you can do a ranger/armorsmith. You'll never be a "master armorsmith" to the point where you can make custom items for individuals. But you'll still be pretty damned awesome. PLUS - you'll be able to defend yourself, hunt down the hides and chitin, skin it yourself, find your own food and water, live outside the cities, find your way around the deserts with ease even in a sandstorm, be able to maneuver yourself at night with no moons, and stay just that one step ahead of your prey at all times.
Damnit Lizzie. Why do you have to make sense...
Because this is a class-based game, and she's only telling you the truth: that you have to make choices about in which way you will be awesome.
What the hell--I said pickpockets were awesome in combat compared to merchants.
Do people even read posts anymore?
You made it sound like Merchants were so bad that even Pick Pockets could beat them up... which is kinda like saying that Pick Pockets are useless, just not quite as useless.
Quote from: Marshmellow on January 29, 2011, 03:11:11 PM
You made it sound like Merchants were so bad that even Pick Pockets could beat them up... which is kinda like saying that Pick Pockets are useless, just not quite as useless.
Pickpockets have a zillion more PK-useful skills than Merchants have. I'm talking about straight A-to-B conflict as though this were a hack-n-slash. Merchants are probably one of the most dangerous guilds to make an opponent of in game for a variety of reasons.
Merchant to me, is hit or miss. You give your character and outline it, and stick to it. Sure you can branch a bazillion things, but I played a sixty day plus and branched very little, actually, because of the way RP went their entire life. I highly enjoyed mine, but I've seen some that randomly fit every single want and need in the known, and thats not realistic to me. I suppose (without honestly having read through this entire thing), the point of merchants isn't to branch a gazillion things, but to stick to their concept, and be damn good at it. I always had mine be frustrated with their actual combat abilities, even though they started getting decent, I always made them look like ass in a sparring match or what not. it comes down to the player in the end, not the code, for any class, especially a merchant.
If the only skills the staff see fit to give you are a bunch of crafts, I see absolutely no reason to be embarrassed about using them. Every merchant in the world being able to craft arrows makes just as much sense as every warrior in the world having some skill with axes. I honestly don't understand why some people have this aversion to using skills, or pursuing skill advancement. As far as it not being realistic is concerned: sure, it's not strictly realistic that you can learn to craft EVERYTHING...but neither is it realistic that you will never successfully sneak, hide, or disarm an opponent.
If you don't feel like skilling up, fine. But don't take what amounts to your personal preference to be some sort of standard of play, then bemoan the situation while not-so-subtly attempting to maintain an air of superiority over folks who have reasonable disagreements over what is or isn't good play.
Since I'm assuming everything starts at "novice", it'd make sense to me for every merchant to be able to attempt to learn how to make arrows, just not for everyone to try long enough to do it right (journeyman). I personally hate fletchery. To me, novice is the ability to learn to do it properly. I'm assuming the number of merchants that can actually make arrows at journeyman is small or medium and concentrated solely up north unless making arrows in large numbers for a clan.
Is it IC-sensitive to ask how merchants branch? Do you have to become master in a crafting skill to get a random other crafting skill?
I love merchants. I wish there was more around in the PC population.
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 04, 2011, 08:22:05 AM
Since I'm assuming everything starts at "novice", it'd make sense to me for every merchant to be able to attempt to learn how to make arrows, just not for everyone to try long enough to do it right (journeyman). I personally hate fletchery. To me, novice is the ability to learn to do it properly. I'm assuming the number of merchants that can actually make arrows at journeyman is small or medium and concentrated solely up north unless making arrows in large numbers for a clan.
Is it IC-sensitive to ask how merchants branch? Do you have to become master in a crafting skill to get a random other crafting skill?
I love merchants. I wish there was more around in the PC population.
No, it's not IC sensitive. It's discussion of the code, which is not allowed. Suffice it to say, the branching occurs somewhat like branching of most other skills in the game.
You branch from a skill when approaching getting as good at that skill as your guild allows. What that means can change from skill to skill and guild to guild. That's probably the most that can be said.
You branch when you branch. Just look at a skill and see if something looks odd. Like if you have "Ray of Death" and then suddenly you see "Rainbow of Death" in your skills list, you know you branched.
IMO, merchants are great for those who love the crafting system. I really want to play a merchant, but I don't think I could go for 2 IG weeks without combat. They're still quite epic, and make money with a bit less effort than the other guilds especially later on, so they're a little less tedious to play.
<3 SMuz.
You could merchant and subguild like, hunter, couldn't you? Wouldn't that give you something to work with? Me, on the other hand, in my idiot newbness, took merchant/tailor. Adoy.
I've had good luck with merchant/archer before. He was VERY long lived though. And sparred regularly.
Quote from: boog on March 12, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
You could merchant and subguild like, hunter, couldn't you? Wouldn't that give you something to work with? Me, on the other hand, in my idiot newbness, took merchant/tailor. Adoy.
For people who would rather sew out of the box than work on trying to move X skill to Y level by Z hours played, that's actually a very good choice.
Quote from: Anaiah on March 12, 2011, 04:37:55 PM
Quote from: boog on March 12, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
You could merchant and subguild like, hunter, couldn't you? Wouldn't that give you something to work with? Me, on the other hand, in my idiot newbness, took merchant/tailor. Adoy.
For people who would rather sew out of the box than work on trying to move X skill to Y level by Z hours played, that's actually a very good choice.
Truth.... Crafting subguilds are for the impatient merchant. x]
I fucking love merchants, yet, I've never played a merchant before. I should get on that. :-\
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 12, 2011, 04:39:17 PM
Quote from: Anaiah on March 12, 2011, 04:37:55 PM
Quote from: boog on March 12, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
You could merchant and subguild like, hunter, couldn't you? Wouldn't that give you something to work with? Me, on the other hand, in my idiot newbness, took merchant/tailor. Adoy.
For people who would rather sew out of the box than work on trying to move X skill to Y level by Z hours played, that's actually a very good choice.
Truth.... Crafting subguilds are for the impatient merchant. x]
Southern merchants also. You aint gonna get no wood and no cheap gortok hides in the south.
Southern merchants really do need different skill trees. Say knife-making and stone crafting instead of fletchery and wood working.
Quote from: Jingo on March 12, 2011, 09:58:00 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 12, 2011, 04:39:17 PM
Quote from: Anaiah on March 12, 2011, 04:37:55 PM
Quote from: boog on March 12, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
You could merchant and subguild like, hunter, couldn't you? Wouldn't that give you something to work with? Me, on the other hand, in my idiot newbness, took merchant/tailor. Adoy.
For people who would rather sew out of the box than work on trying to move X skill to Y level by Z hours played, that's actually a very good choice.
Truth.... Crafting subguilds are for the impatient merchant. x]
Southern merchants also. You aint gonna get no wood and no cheap gortok hides in the south.
Southern merchants really do need different skill trees. Say knife-making and stone crafting instead of fletchery and wood working.
Too lazy to dig up all my old posts on the subject, so YES PLZ andthankyou.
Fletchery can do just fine in the South... Not going to make any money at it, but you'll have no trouble training the skill...
Quote from: boog on March 12, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
You could merchant and subguild like, hunter, couldn't you? Wouldn't that give you something to work with? Me, on the other hand, in my idiot newbness, took merchant/tailor. Adoy.
Wouldn't hunter be sort of a worthless subguild for a merchant? You'd be better at hunterlike stuff, but unless you bring some warrior buddy with you on a hunt, you'd sort of just.. die.
The problem with fletchery in the south is that the bone arrowshaft requires (or did, not long ago) more skill in fletchery than a newbie merchant starts with (at least, more skill than any of my newbie merchants ever had). Thus, unless someone sells a straightening wrench in the city (because no NPCs ordinarily stock them), you have to branch toolmaking first, then make yourself a goddamn straightening wrench to give you +whatever in fletchery, before you can even start dicking around with the skill...unless you can get people to truck in branches for you.
It's pretty fucking annoying, and I've bitched about it numerous times, and it applies to several skills. It took me fucking forever to figure out an axe-making recipe that a newbie merchant in the south could actually start out crafting (as far as I can tell, there are only two, both from the same materials). Or club-making...ffs. There's like one club you can craft as a newbie and it requires a PARTICULAR branch, and good gawd is it annoying trying to explain why you need a "knotty branch of fuckwood," not a "knotted branch of fuckwood."
I submitted about 10 crafts to the staff that represent basic shit that novices in the respective skills should be able to at least attempt to craft, using items you can find in or around Allanak, but I never got any word on whether they were implemented or not.
That being said, I branched (and would've mastered, if I hadn't stored) every merchant skill with someone who basically never left Allanak, so it's not impossible. It's just pretty frustrating trying to get your hands on certain things...but if everything were simple, where would the fun be in that?
Quote from: SMuz on March 12, 2011, 11:32:35 PM
Quote from: boog on March 12, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
You could merchant and subguild like, hunter, couldn't you? Wouldn't that give you something to work with? Me, on the other hand, in my idiot newbness, took merchant/tailor. Adoy.
Wouldn't hunter be sort of a worthless subguild for a merchant? You'd be better at hunterlike stuff, but unless you bring some warrior buddy with you on a hunt, you'd sort of just.. die.
Dude, we already went over this on like, page 1 or 2 of this thread. I know you just came back to the GDB or something, but please folks, let's not go over this again.
Quote from: SMuz on March 12, 2011, 11:32:35 PM
Quote from: boog on March 12, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
You could merchant and subguild like, hunter, couldn't you? Wouldn't that give you something to work with? Me, on the other hand, in my idiot newbness, took merchant/tailor. Adoy.
Wouldn't hunter be sort of a worthless subguild for a merchant? You'd be better at hunterlike stuff, but unless you bring some warrior buddy with you on a hunt, you'd sort of just.. die.
If you depend on melee for "hunting," you're doing it wrong... what do you think swords, axes, and warhammers are going to do to hide, chitin, and bone's that would be useful if not ICly smashed/broken to pieces (yes, I know the code doesn't seem to figure this damage in)?
Even at advanced subguild levels, archery is a -very- dangerous skill against foes.
Although I play them few and far in between, merchant is probably my favorite guild in the game.
There's another thing that one can craft in the south that's not an arrowshaft with plenty of resource around, though I'm not sure if I should say it if it's not that obvious, however now that I think about it, you may need a fletchery tool to make it straight out of the box... Whenever I had the skill, I had access to a shit-load of tools, but they're not that hard to get one's hands on...
Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on March 12, 2011, 11:39:44 PM
There's another thing that one can craft in the south that's not an arrowshaft with plenty of resource around, though I'm not sure if I should say it if it's not that obvious, however now that I think about it, you may need a fletchery tool to make it straight out of the box... Whenever I had the skill, I had access to a shit-load of tools, but they're not that hard to get one's hands on...
Yeah, possibly. I don't remember those being craftable the first time I picked up the raw material, but it's been quite a while.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 12, 2011, 04:39:17 PM
Truth.... Crafting subguilds are for the impatient merchant. x]
Truth: subguilds are for rounding out characters -- thus, if the character background indicates specialization than it's not "being impatient" at all. It'd be like hunter's taking archery or Byners taking the drinking subguild.
Also, I really, really wish they would divide merchant into Northern/Southern. It's one thing to play someone who has lived around bone and stone all their lives finally being able to piece together an idea so they can make their own -- it's quite another to say "here, take this material you'd likely never really use on a daily basis because now, suddenly, you can use it"
I've only played one merchant, and I loved it. Love with a big fat capital L. But then, I like doing repetitive things and with all the stuff around to make things with it makes my OCDs tingle because it's not like I actually hoarded the stuff myself...but there it is all for me!
I would like to see two separate skill trees for merchants to be able to chose from regardless of location.
Perhaps I will write one up and submit it through the request tool instead of bickering about it on the GDB.... yes, yes I will.
What if merchants could choose one introductory crafting skill instead of the initial three. I hate going to clan interviews and saying I know how to fletch arrows, tan hides, and chop wood like every other merchant before me.
Quote from: Reiteration on March 14, 2011, 01:55:02 AM
What if merchants could choose one introductory crafting skill instead of the initial three. I hate going to clan interviews and saying I know how to fletch arrows, tan hides, and chop wood like every other merchant before me.
I would love that.
synthesis made me laugh. sometimes, it does seem like all there's around to use is fuckwood and shitstone.
it's rather hard to come up with an excuse for a southern-born merchant why the hell they know logging. if i'm born down south, i have to use my subguild on something i can get in the south, if i want to survive, since i usually don't enter a clan which will feed me and provide my merchant's usual beginner materials.
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 14, 2011, 04:43:49 AM
Quote from: Reiteration on March 14, 2011, 01:55:02 AM
What if merchants could choose one introductory crafting skill instead of the initial three. I hate going to clan interviews and saying I know how to fletch arrows, tan hides, and chop wood like every other merchant before me.
I would love that.
synthesis made me laugh. sometimes, it does seem like all there's around to use is fuckwood and shitstone.
it's rather hard to come up with an excuse for a southern-born merchant why the hell they know logging. if i'm born down south, i have to use my subguild on something i can get in the south, if i want to survive, since i usually don't enter a clan which will feed me and provide my merchant's usual beginner materials.
The problem with that is this: With the way guilds work, that's all decided before you ever get into the Hall of Kings. Languages too. The only thing decided on pointing is what accent you get. And even if this WERE done, all it would do would make the grind players feel like they had more skills to grind to collect them all.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 12, 2011, 11:35:49 PM
... and good gawd is it annoying trying to explain why you need a "knotty branch of fuckwood," not a "knotted branch of fuckwood."
I thought you wanted a -naughty- branch of fuckwood. Dammit!
Also, I find the assertion that guild merchants can hang with combatants amusing. Or even that killing a carru is something special. :-*
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 13, 2011, 12:32:28 PM
I would like to see two separate skill trees for merchants to be able to chose from regardless of location.
Perhaps I will write one up and submit it through the request tool instead of bickering about it on the GDB.... yes, yes I will.
Done.
Although, I think a much easier fix would be to offer a cheap untanned rat and/or chalton hide for sale at the raw materials shop and make one have to craft an arrowhead from shards (using skill_fletchery) instead of using raw shards in arrow recipes.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 14, 2011, 06:00:40 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 13, 2011, 12:32:28 PM
I would like to see two separate skill trees for merchants to be able to chose from regardless of location.
Perhaps I will write one up and submit it through the request tool instead of bickering about it on the GDB.... yes, yes I will.
Done.
Although, I think a much easier fix would be to offer a cheap untanned rat and/or chalton hide for sale at the raw materials shop and make one have to craft an arrowhead from shards (using skill_fletchery) instead of using raw shards in arrow recipes.
There -is- a cheap, untanned hide, in infinite quantity, available in Allanak. It's chalton, too.
Also, you used to have to make the arrowheads separately, but they removed that step several years ago. Putting it back in would be a fix that would, over the long term, be more annoying than the problem.
I said easy fix, not a good one. ;)
Also, didn't know about the chalton hide.
I think I only just realized this, but I have -never- seen a Chalton before.
There use to be some NPCs in a place that you would expect them to be, but they are all virtual there now. :(
Quote from: Saellyn on March 14, 2011, 06:49:46 PM
I think I only just realized this, but I have -never- seen a Chalton before.
Seeing them is very possible. Ask around.
I've seen a Chalton around lately.