Armageddon General Discussion Board

In the past two weeks I've seen what I think is a downward spiral in half-giant roleplay.
Can they be crafty?  Sure.  Funny?  Sure.
But, I keep seeing half-giants whose roleplay so obviously reveals the intelligent player
behind them.  I can't even picture the character sometimes, just a person trying to
get further in the game.

Is it just me?

Player complaints. Not GDB posts.

Quote from: sprucebark on November 24, 2010, 11:56:43 PM
In the past two weeks decades I've seen what I think is a downward spiral in half-giant roleplay.

;D

My idea of Half-giants are basically 9 year olds in the bodies of hulking monsters.

Quote from: Is Friday on November 25, 2010, 12:09:08 AM
Player complaints. Not GDB posts.

Quote from: Player Complaint Tool
Use this for complaints regarding an Armageddon player, be it outside the game or performed in the game through a player character.

Your complaint will not be forwarded to the player in question. This is only to report violations of game rules, not provide critique of play.

There doesn't seem to be a good place to complain about poorly played half giants except for posting ambiguously on the GDB. I don't think being too clever counts as violating the rules. I went as far as the player complaint tool myself recently, but stopped when I read that.

Not every HG plays like every HG in the game. If you don't think someone is roleplaying accordingly, that is a valid section for a player complaint. This is if, and only if, you feel the particular roleplaying is horribly against documentation, such as a half-giant playing at being smart, quick-witted, and whatnot.

If, however, you feel someone is playing a race in a manner that you personally find inappropriate, I have to go with the cut and dry "Deal with it".

Sorry, but thats just how it is. Either complain to staff, who can assess the situation, or shut up. Saying something on the GDB is hurtful to other players, whether they currently have a HG pc, or not.

I will never play a HG because I fear I'll make a long lived one by accident and fail at roleplaying after so long.

Documentation clearly states they're "infamously stupid."

Quote from: Riev on November 25, 2010, 03:51:24 AM
If you don't think someone is roleplaying accordingly, that is a valid section for a player complaint.

I disagree. If you go to the tool, you will see it clearly states that it is only to be used for violating the rules and specifically states that it is not to be used to point out bad roleplaying. There is not a rule that says you have to play according to the documentation, but I'd like to think that somebody with karma to play a half giant could be trusted to do so.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/rules.html

Quote from: Drayab on November 25, 2010, 04:46:36 AM

Quote from: Riev on November 25, 2010, 03:51:24 AM
If you don't think someone is roleplaying accordingly, that is a valid section for a player complaint.

I disagree. If you go to the tool, you will see it clearly states that it is only to be used for violating the rules and specifically states that it is not to be used to point out bad roleplaying. There is not a rule that says you have to play according to the documentation, but I'd like to think that somebody with karma to play a half giant could be trusted to do so.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/rules.html

1 karma players can special app Half Giants.

Be the change you want to see.

Sending in a player complaint regarding their roleplay of specific scenes is definitely taken seriously by staff. I've had my fair share of complaints, believe me.

Yeah, and actually, I am going to contradict myself now.

Quote
Roleplaying is defined as the act of using your character to play out the role of that character, not yourself (the player sitting at the keyboard). Different people have different ideas of what it means to roleplay. What matters is that if you want to play this game, you will need to adhere to the staff's definition of roleplaying. Roleplaying is more than the use of the emote command. It means that you act as your character, in as realistic a way as possible; when deciding what your character will do next, you need to base it on what he/she knows (or could reasonably be expected to know, such as general information about the game world), not on what you (the player) know.

From now on, I am going to interpret that is an implicit requirement to reasonably follow the documentation.

To be honest, I don't see a problem in this thread.

He isn't point out anyone in specific. The topic of the thread could have been worded a little different to reflect a discussion of half-giant personalities.

I think that, whoever plays a half-giant now, if they read this - Will/Should take a moment to recheck their own playing habits.

It's difficult, I would think, for an intelligent player to not, even if accidentally, portray some of their own intelligence into their characters.

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on November 25, 2010, 05:12:08 AM
To be honest, I don't see a problem in this thread.

Just want to throw in my 2 sids.

Since playing Arm from May of this year I've met like... well.. a few HGs that I've RP'd with for long periods of time. Only -one- I would say was infamously stupid or that you could regard as "stupid". Well RP'd all around. Sent that player a much deserved kudos. The others I've met were... well... pretty damn smart and cunning.

That being said, I think each character really writes his own make up in the end regardless of templates. But yes. HGs are pretty smart from what I've experienced.

Chances are that anyone playing half-giants against the ton of documentation written for them will either miss this point of this thread or ignore it unless a staff member tells them. That is why player complaints are encouraged when rules are broken, because the staff actually have authority, and players' complaints on the GDB can just be brushed off easily. And yes, in my opinion playing against basic documentation that applies to 100% of the PCs, NPCs, and vNPCs of your race is against the rules unless you're playing a spec-apped and approved mutant that acts differently. Playing a cunning half-giant is like playing a dwarf without a focus, an elf that rides a mount, and so on. It just flies in the face of whatever was written out for that race.

Anyway, I think it is hard to play a half-giant. You never really know a player's background and prior characters when you encounter one. Maybe they are used to playing conniving characters and can't help themselves. I have admired players that are able to do half-giants well. But try to cut them some slack, too. They're playing a restrictive role. Watch them over a long period of time before you decide whether their effort is genuine or they're just playing stupidly. That goes for every difficult role imaginable.

Using the GDB to discuss half-giant roleplay is acceptable.

Using the GDB to complain about the roleplay of other players is not acceptable.

Not to add wood to the fire but the same goes for dwarves and elves. Dwarves are stubborn, hairless, and focused. Elves are mistrusting, cunning, stealing scum.

At least in most instances.

Clearly, there are some situations where your HG should act a little more mature, and your dwarf should be paying better attention to some distraction, and your elf better keep his con-game in check. Like a giant monster chasing them across the Known or a sorcerer turning them into a bonfire.

Can I complain about Cold toes?


And Dwarves are 0 karma. Elves for the most part are as well.

99% of HGs ever played in arm are horrible....make that 99.99%

Complaining to staff on the matter does little. They are almost never caught by staff and often will last a goodly time of horribleness before dying somehow then rolling another horrible HG and you the player sit and wonder how they got another.

The funny thing about it, and this I know from experiance, You can have a genius HG, as long as he talks like an idiot staff will never say anything, but if you play to the docs and have one that talks smart, but IS a moron you will get called out by staff for not playing to the docs.

Take muls out and put HG to mul karma.

Oh, and make that a 3 year old not 9.

and HG are not immature, they are stupid, one who is limited by nature cannot suddenly become less stupid.

A HG who spends a lot of time around smart people wouldm probably also appear smart though.

At least at first glance.

One thing that may help is to give your half-giant specific traits, rather than just a general label "stupid".

I've played one half-giant and don't really know if he fell into the 99% or not. One trait I tried to give him, though, was to be forgetful. For example, his backpack was stolen while he slept and he simply forgot he had one.

Another trait was to think about a situation, reach a wrong conclusion, and act on it. For example, he was yelled at by a templer for sleeping while some shit was going on, and decided the templar was mad because he was sleeping in a particular room, and started sleeping thereafter in a different room rather than fixing his behaviour.

Quote
I think that, whoever plays a half-giant now, if they read this - Will/Should take a moment to recheck their own playing habits.

I wish that threads like this could/would serve some constructive purpose but I fear they really do not.  In fact, they probably just serve to make the players of HG's feel defensive.

Way back when I first rolled up an HG it was my very first karma role and so I spent literally hours and hours pouring over the docs, assessing how the traits described in the docs could be translated into my character concept, etc. etc.  I'm sure every other first time player of an HG also puts a lot of effort into their concept and their RP, not wanting to screw it up.

Roleplaying stupidity is not as monolithic as some people would seem to suggest. There are many faces to stupidity, many ways it manifests, many kinds of thinking .... and on and on.  The majority of the time in these threads the critics don't offer anything constructive, mainly because they think there is only one way to play an HG:  their way.

Quote from: Cutthroat on November 25, 2010, 07:46:58 AM
Anyway, I think it is hard to play a half-giant. You never really know a player's background and prior characters when you encounter one.

Watch them over a long period of time before you decide whether their effort is genuine or they're just playing stupidly. That goes for every difficult role imaginable.

Quote from: X-D on November 25, 2010, 12:55:11 PM
Oh, and make that a 3 year old not 9.

and HG are not immature, they are stupid, one who is limited by nature cannot suddenly become less stupid.

And everything that Medena posted.

As a sometime player of Half-Giants, this thread has made me feel incredibly defensive, and confused. If my play of a half-giant was or is so colossally bad, why has nobody called me out on it? Am -I- the one playing the half-giants the OP and everyone else is talking about?

I'd like to think I put in a lot of effort into the way I play my PCs, but I guess its not up to standards for everyone else. This thread really disappoints me, and rather than offer constructive criticism and examples (some have), people are just complaining and pointing back to the documentation. I almost feel like not playing HGs anymore, because I must not be capable. Sorry, Arm.

Your right There are many types of stupidity, But we are not talking about them.

HG have a very specific and well documented type of stupidity.

And it is not that I or others think the HG should be played my way but the documented way.

Sorry Riev, I will try and be a bit more constructive. Let me give an example of something bad, less then 2 years old.

HG1 gets in a fight with another PC, HG 1 ways HG2 and with HG2 plans and orchistrates an ambush. And not just Lets chase bad dude down and crush him, But, You wait here, I'll go back here, then when bad dude comes for me, You wait and I will chase him to you.

HG understanding cause, affect, with the ability to imagine possible eventualities, all clearly against docs. If you were playing that HG, then yes, your one of the 99%

Thing is, this level of planning ability in PC HGs is NOT rare, it is the norm in which they are played.

As to the rest of your post, sorry, but really the most constructive thing another player can do is complain and point at the docs.

I believe somewhere in the HG doc's (Unless i'm wrong) says that HG are adaptive to there climate. Such as if a HG which is dumb is always around a noble Player (Very Proper) The HG (Not Proper) will slowly start to pick up on his climate and they way others talk. This doesn't make them smart but adaptive. Of course i could be using the wrong wording but it seems someone talked to me about this at one point.

The reason I don't play H-Gs is because I know I would over-analyze everything until it was no longer fun. Every time I did something that someone had taught me, I would wonder if all the PCs were rolling their eyes because they assumed my character was coming up with the action/plan on his own. H-Gs are excellent imitators. That's in the docs. Have they seen someone else set an ambush? Have they been taught (slowly and carefully) to set one? If that's impossible, then there certainly shouldn't be H-G soldiers and guards.

I suppose you think H-G warriors shouldn't get the disarm skill because that requires planning? And on and on. Ugh.

EDIT: Moreover, how would an h-g ever beat anyone in combat without just getting lucky? We know this isn't the case. H-Gs are amazing soldiers and fighters. But any fighter will tell you that brute strength counts for very little if you couldn't move tactically, anticipate, plan, etc.

I don't know about HG intelligence, there were a couple very well played ones that I saw. What I'd like to see is that the players of HGs show some restraint before resorting to coded actions. When you can two-hit kill many PCs, I think it's your duty to give them ample clues about what you're going to do next. Otherwise you risk that your very entrance makes people reach for their 'flee' alias.

Every single HG I have met I have enjoyed and not found to be breaching docs. I'm sure there's some bad ones out there but I like to give players the benefit of the doubt.

I will send out a general kudos to those that do really try on the HGs, there have been good ones. And playing one well is a lot of work.

Oh, as to the comment on teaching a HG to ambush, sure, you could, but the HG has ZERO imagination he would be able to perform that ambush and only that ambush, coming up with the idea that it would apply to other areas using other people against other people simply would not be something a HG is capable of.

Guards and soldiers, that is perfect for HG, Hey, stand here, do not leave, smash anybody that human over there tells you to. Though, even then the others would have to remind him, least till he was well trained at standing in place waiting for somebody to smash.

X-D - a raptor, gortok, or tembo (or many an earth animal) will ambush. I wouldn't presume a HG is -less- intelligent than a beast.

Wow. I actually feel a bit better, and damn near respected. Are you sure you are XD?


That example does seem pretty rough. I would like to think my HGs would be in that position but honestly, as HG2, I would probably go along with 'hit that guy when he comes running'.


I find this discussion slowly outlining issues, and hopefully positive aspects of HGs so at least MY play will be better.

Quote from: lepxii on November 25, 2010, 03:58:39 PM
X-D - a raptor, gortok, or tembo (or many an earth animal) will ambush. I wouldn't presume a HG is -less- intelligent than a beast.

Most animals I see, in-game, have a tendency to "ambush" (attack you) whether or not they have numbers or not. I've seen lone raptors charge whole groups of people - Only to be summarily slaughtered and turned into a puddle in the sand. There isn't a 'coded' instinct amongst most aggressive animals other then to attack, thoughtlessly.

To me, animals have primal instinct (the ability to accidentally be in the right place at the right time) while Half-giants, more or less, lack -any- instinct.

Most IRL are able to assess the odds of their success, and then attack. Predators pick on prey that they can take down.

Armageddon's coded mobs are (mostly) dumber. Animals and non-animal (e.g. aggro humans) alike.

off topic sorta..

are HGs smarter than a Mantis?

Quote from: Dakota on November 25, 2010, 04:19:23 PM
off topic sorta..

are HGs smarter than a Mantis?

No. Not by a long shot.

I've seen plenty of HG's that were a blast to play with. The role is kind of perfect for comic relief, but I've witnessed some very solid roleplay despite this. My largest problem with some HG's is that they're too witty for being so dumb. You heckle one, even subtly, and their peanut sized brain comes back with a stinging riposte. But saying 99.99% of HG's are played like shit is pretty... shitty thing to say. It's a difficult role to pull off and not everyone can do it, but I've seen a number of the big bastards that were solid characters, fully developed as individuals and more or less in-line woth the documentation.

Quote from: WarriorPoet on November 25, 2010, 06:04:20 PM
I've seen plenty of HG's that were a blast to play with. The role is kind of perfect for comic relief, but I've witnessed some very solid roleplay despite this. My largest problem with some HG's is that they're too witty for being so dumb. You heckle one, even subtly, and their peanut sized brain comes back with a stinging riposte. But saying 99.99% of HG's are played like shit is pretty... shitty thing to say. It's a difficult role to pull off and not everyone can do it, but I've seen a number of the big bastards that were solid characters, fully developed as individuals and more or less in-line woth the documentation.

Two excellent points. They make superb companions; as if that role is tailored for them. Also there is a player there controlling them; so yeah when they feel like having fun they reply in turn.

The worlds most awesome HG I played with would say "WHAT?" whenever I said something to him that went over his head. It always made me lol.

I've played a long-lived HG and I got compliments and complaints, even a note from a staff wondering if I was playing too smart. It is a difficult task over the course of a long time to continually play with the same mentality, but possible. I think one of the hardest parts, and what the others players have to keep in mind, is you also have to take into account the HG's background. Has the HG in question been playing in a clan for five or more IG years? Because after that long, that HG will probably be so accustomed to doing things a certain way because that is how that clan wants it, that others players at first glance might think that HG is playing smart when in actuality they are doing exactly what they are supposed to, how they are supposed to do it. Though it is also good if the players of HGs remember that HG can and -should- fumble around or forget a step now and again in their task.

They easy part in mimicking is saying the catchphrases of the players around you if that person has caught the interest of the HG.
The hard part is mimicking the attributes of the other players around you and then getting those watching your playing to accept that you are doing it a certain way because the character your HG idolizes does it that way. It is a tricky thing watching HG role play.

I would also suggest that while interacting with HG's try to take that into account, unless you RP with a certain HG constantly it is hard to judge if that player is playing correctly or if they may have just slipped and gotten out of character a minute which happens when trying to play such a simple mind.

Maybe I am just being bitter, but this just seems like people being annoyed that HG's are so powerful, and that not everyone plays them like an imbecile.

Will a HG ever be known for developing a siege weapon? probably not.

Will a HG ever learn to read or write? Probably not.

Will a HG learn to pick up on sarcasm? Highly likely. Learn how to survive even if fumbling at times in the wilderness? Of course. Be able to have rational thoughts? Yes.

You either A.) Get used to the fact that HG's can have some degree of sensibility, or ; B.) Stop expecting to see them employed because they are too erratic and powerful, much like Muls but only retarded.

I have never seen a HG I deemed too smart to be a HG. I have seen the stupidest (open for debate) to some fairly intelligent (also open for debate) HG's in my playtime, and I liked all of them. That is the concept that roleplayer had, and if they stuck to it, I saw and see no issue.

QuoteWill a HG learn to pick up on sarcasm?

Never

QuoteLearn how to survive even if fumbling at times in the wilderness?

Sure

QuoteBe able to have rational thoughts?

They can from the start, but there is a limit to how far a rational can go...pretty much the line is like Water makes me wet....then it stands to reason water makes all things wet...NO, a HG ONLY knows it makes him wet. He would have to see that it makes somebody else wet and even then he would not be able to reason that it makes person 3 wet till he sees it, and after seeing it 100,000 times he STILL would not be able to reason that it would make person 100,001 wet.

And as to "Animals ambush" God, Spiders spin webs of single strands of silk, something none of you can do, I suppose that applies somehow to how smart you are?

Animals Ambush, No, animals jump out of trees or from behind trees, any 3 year old can wait behind a tree in hopes that SOMEBODY comes by.

The point to the deal is that it was a planned system to catch a certain person in a place the Person was not at  in a manner that required mental facilities that HG simply do not have.

When I play a HG, I generally just follow everyone else. I had the same thoughts and goals as the people around me. Essentially you are a real plot mover.

I ended up becoming a bard, and joining a Noble House, and never even wanted or planned to do those things. People may have thought he was 'smart' who knows, but really he was just going with the flow. He was often at the right place at the right time. Though I'd let his path sway at the change of the wind. He was tricked on a number of occasions, leaking secrets to those he shouldn't have.

I don't like playing the entire I don't understand anyone, I prefer to play the thoughtless go getter HG. You need this, I can get that, and I'll just go and do it. You need wood, I may just bring in a tree. You need hide, I may just knock out the beast and bring in the body. Also I always went with my first thought. And, I would never quite understand punishment and reward, but went along with the flow.

You're severely underestimate their intelligence. If you were right, any position other than being arena meat would be far above HGs.

edit: directed at X-D

No, I do not, you overestimate how worthwhile intelligence is to survival and over simplify what intelligence is when talking about a non-human creature.

A smart half-giant or any for that matter, can learn and retain, yes, but they are 100% incapable of creative thought, they are not capable of rational thought requiring the use of intangibles. They cannot multitask or easily hold more then one thing in mind at a time. They have no science they have no art and they have no culture and they cannot even begin to understand any of the concepts.

Shepard seems like they have a good way to play one, I don't have a problem with a HG understanding VERY simple cause and affect, and that style leaves a HG doing things to please others, something they like doing because it would be an early cause and affect learned. That people want things, you bring them and they are happy...you did good.

edit
Yes Riev, it really is me.
Let me also say, I've played 4 HGs, Only 1 of the 4 did even I consider well played, though, Staff did not, They considered my worst played one as the best. The main reason why I will not play another HG, The dumb talking Genius HG was better staff liked then the truly stupid mimick...go figure, the other reason is they are simply too much work.
Also, to anybody feeling defensive, I don't really think you should, I personally don't think it is possible for most people to play a HG well...long as your really trying you should be proud.

In my mind a half-giant is too stupid to survive independently and the race only survives because they do whatever they're told/influenced to do.

Quote from: X-D on November 25, 2010, 08:35:05 PM
Only 1 of the 4 did even I consider well played, though, Staff did not, They considered my worst played one as the best. The main reason why I will not play another HG, The dumb talking Genius HG was better staff liked then the truly stupid mimick...

This may be a large factor in people not playing half-giants to X-D's standards.
They do not follow staff standards. (Apparently.)
People apping for half-giant may want or feel the need to appeal to the staff members. Thus, they play how the staff feels is the best way.
Others, who gained karma via other means, would likely play as the staff feels they should.
(Otherwise they would not have gained that karma.)

In an experiment, you could set X-D's standard as the goal for roleplay.
Have people rewarded for -not- playing as he sees fit.
Do so for years. (As long as the karma system has been around.)
Then see what percent of people follow X-D's standards for roleplay.

Quote from: X-D on November 25, 2010, 02:05:07 PM
.

HG1 gets in a fight with another PC, HG 1 ways HG2 and with HG2 plans and orchistrates an ambush. And not just Lets chase bad dude down and crush him, But, You wait here, I'll go back here, then when bad dude comes for me, You wait and I will chase him to you.

HG understanding cause, affect, with the ability to imagine possible eventualities, all clearly against docs. If you were playing that HG, then yes, your one of the 99%

Thing is, this level of planning ability in PC HGs is NOT rare, it is the norm in which they are played.

I'm wondering if you're on staff or something because how could you know this is the complete truth? Is it not possible that somebody else (much more intelligent) was contacting each half-giant with the way and facilitating the ambush? I find it hard to believe that you know 100% that it was only the half-giants around at the time of this ambush.

no offense but why do we care what XD thinks? I think the same docs can be open to interpretation.

QuoteHowever, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms.

QuotePossessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends.

QuoteHalf- giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

I just don't see or agree with all these additional rules people are making up. If X-D (and others) are right then they might as well be taken off the choices as unfun and unplayable. By those standards the staff and mud itself are not up to snuff. Why would the city states even trust them to be guards. Why would templars strut around with the worthless things as their only guards. How does one run a stable?

I think people need to have some kind of enjoyment with a HG.

My apologies if there is some docs I am not looking at.

Quote from: lordcooper on November 25, 2010, 01:02:49 PM
A HG who spends a lot of time around smart people wouldm probably also appear smart though.

At least at first glance.

Yeah. Doesn't it mention somewhere in the docs that half-giants mimic those around them? That means diction, gestures, mannerisms...

Quote from: Titania on November 25, 2010, 11:02:36 PM
no offense but why do we care what XD thinks? I think the same docs can be open to interpretation.

QuoteHowever, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms.

QuotePossessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends.

QuoteHalf- giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

I just don't see or agree with all these additional rules people are making up. If X-D (and others) are right then they might as well be taken off the choices as unfun and unplayable. By those standards the staff and mud itself are not up to snuff. Why would the city states even trust them to be guards. Why would templars strut around with the worthless things as their only guards. How does one run a stable?

I think people need to have some kind of enjoyment with a HG.

My apologies if there is some docs I am not looking at.

First off:  Yes.

As a second point on HGs, I think I've done pretty well with them.  When I decide to take up that role, I receive a great deal of player kudos.  The one thing that makes me really pleased to play this game is when other players tell me I made them enjoy their game more.

I think the reason these kudos are offered, is because I very closely adhere to the lines Titania picked out of the docs. 

QuoteHowever, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms.

If someone tries to trick you as a HG, it works.  It can even work twice back to back if they are even slightly clever about it.  Euphamisms, metaphors, and other verbal play falls on literal ears.  Giants *are* capable of creative thought, but their thoughts are limited to the most obvious solutions and direct behaviors, and almost never regard possible consequences.  If someone gives you conflicting instructions, you get paralyzed mentally, or, chose the path you've seen others(friends) take.  Because of . . .

QuotePossessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends.

Observe behaviors around you and start taking them in.  Speech, body language, habits.  Dogma is particularly effective on half giants, and he who pays the most attention to them wins.  In the end, they are going to migrate towards those they are most around, and consider these people friends, because of . . .

QuoteHalf- giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

Favor the moment.  Its not about what they've done for you, its what they're doing now that concerns a HG.  Though repeated, predictable behavior has a stronger impact on a HG then erratic behavior or out of the blue requests.

To put half-giant intellect into perspective, I suggest that those of you who can, sit down one day and have a conversation with a 9-10 year old child. Have an actual conversation, not just hi and bye, but a conversation. Discuss the weather. Discuss life. Ask opinion.

Yes, some children are smarter than others at that age, but barring mental retardation, when you stop and think about it, all of these children are quite capable of thinking intelligent, and even, at times, advanced thoughts. Most of them can even think to the point of survival. Zalanthas is a hostile world, but it is also far simpler in nearly every aspect, and as such, that 9 year old train of thought is likely to grasp more in relative terms than the same mind in our modern world.

Yes, their views are skewed, and yes, they are often wrong, but rational thought still comes from their lips, and often times, they are more observant in particular situations than adults are.

So talk to a child.

I'm telling you to do this, because I have.

It surprised me.

QuoteI'm wondering if you're on staff or something because how could you know this is the complete truth? Is it not possible that somebody else (much more intelligent) was contacting each half-giant with the way and facilitating the ambush? I find it hard to believe that you know 100% that it was only the half-giants around at the time of this ambush.

That would have been even worse, and if I did know it was happening I would have filed a complaint on the matter.

QuoteThis may be a large factor in people not playing half-giants to X-D's standards.
They do not follow staff standards. (Apparently.)
People apping for half-giant may want or feel the need to appeal to the staff members. Thus, they play how the staff feels is the best way.
Others, who gained karma via other means, would likely play as the staff feels they should.
(Otherwise they would not have gained that karma.)

Let me say, I never said the staffers in this were right, they are no longer on staff happily. But one of the problems with asking staff about the play is that, as stated before, most the time staff sees something well out of context and only for a very short amount of time.

Also, Some of them (and in this case it was the case) Have never played a HG or sometimes even read the docs. They are only Human after all. I've never had a problem with a Highlord or above on my HGs though.

Also, Stop taking single lines from the docs, you do not get to pick and choose which parts of racial RP you like or are willing to follow, as with the race docs for all the races, if they are taken as anything less then the whole then they are worthless, this is a problem I see way too often with staff and players alike.

The actual problem - and this is from first hand experience - with playing consistently stupid HGs - is that it takes immense concentration on the part of the player, to continuously keep thinking, talking and acting in a manner which is not reflective of the player's (our) age and intelligence.

Its very easy to play a super intelligent and crafty PC - like an elf - but the contrary is extremely difficult.

It does not come naturally to us, to tone down our natural intelligence for long periods, with ease - leave alone finesse!

I do agree with players experiencing unrealistically intelligent HG roleplay on arm - and not appreciating it.
On the other hand, swapping HGs with Muls - that I don't agree on.

I agree with the Staff's overall approach about giving a wider berth and going easy with HG roleplay.

And though HG personas might not be played correctly by some/most players - the Race doesn't have as many bonuses/advantages as Mul, to warrant an increase in Karma requirement.

I vote status-quo.


Edited to add: X-D is a different breed altogether - I'm not even sure he's pure human...maybe a cyborg with a built-in ArmageddonMUD chipset....so he doesn't get a say on this issue... ;)

Quote from: Incognito on November 26, 2010, 02:31:31 AM
Its very easy to play a super intelligent and crafty PC - like an elf - but the contrary is extremely difficult.

It does not come naturally to us, to tone down our natural intelligence for long periods, with ease - leave alone finesse!



Edited to add: X-D is a different breed altogether - I'm not even sure he's pure human...maybe a cyborg with a built-in ArmageddonMUD chipset....so he doesn't get a say on this issue... ;)

I actually find it harder to play intelligent and crafty. xD

Quote
Also, Stop taking single lines from the docs, you do not get to pick and choose which parts of racial RP you like or are willing to follow, as with the race docs for all the races, if they are taken as anything less then the whole then they are worthless, this is a problem I see way too often with staff and players alike.

Awesome. I'm glad we're bringing in the entirety of the docs. Can you provide links to the docs that support what you've been saying here?

Quote
HG understanding cause, affect, with the ability to imagine possible eventualities, all clearly against docs.

I don't think there'd be much argument about HGs having difficulty imagining possible eventualities, but it would surely help everyone out here if you could point to the doc that says HGs can't understand cause and effect.

Quote
the HG has ZERO imagination he would be able to perform that ambush and only that ambush, coming up with the idea that it would apply to other areas using other people against other people simply would not be something a HG is capable of.

A doc that clearly stats that Hgs have "ZERO" imagination would really clear things up here. Let's get that link!

Quote
pretty much the line is like Water makes me wet....then it stands to reason water makes all things wet...NO, a HG ONLY knows it makes him wet. He would have to see that it makes somebody else wet and even then he would not be able to reason that it makes person 3 wet till he sees it, and after seeing it 100,000 times he STILL would not be able to reason that it would make person 100,001 wet.

Are there any examples in the docs that would support this level of mental retardation? This isn't just stupid. This is non-functional mental capacity.

Quotethey are 100% incapable of creative thought,

That's a pretty strong statement! Is there anything in the docs that would cearly, unambiguously support this?

You later say that you don't have a problem with HGs understanding simple cause and effect. This seems rather contradictory to what you've stated above. You've played this game much longer than me and you've surely read the docs more than I have.  To my eyes, it seems that you are extrapolating from the docs to create iron-clad rules that are actually open to more interpretation than you seem willing to allow. I'd be delighted to be shown where the docs clearly say all this because it would certainly help me out the next time I attempt to play an HG.

You can't argue when someone set on their ideas reads the documentation and interprets them a certain way. You think Half-Giants should have down-syndrome, then send in a submit a request! Thats the beauty of having it now. I honestly think Half-giants are fine the way they are. It is obvious if the HG is way too smart to be a half-giant. You know walking around with a Noble or Templar talking about mass control of a population and laying out groundwork for a sewer system or aquaduct. I think people have just had some bad experiences and want to vent, in my opinion.

I think people don't see enough of half-giants to get an accurate picture of the quality of their roleplay.

I think X-D is overreacting and has restricted, in his mind, half-giant roleplay to a ridiculous level.  I say this especially because I seem to remember something in the docs or said by staff a while back, an example story about a half-giant trying to adapt something he'd learned to a new situation with comical affect because he didn't really understand the new situation.  They're not completely retarded, just damn dumb.  They are adaptive mimics, just dumb and childlike.  They are not semi-functioning retards.

This thread depresses me. I see a lot of people stating, "They are too dumb to understand this, and this, and this."

Speaking with a kid that can barely speak. They already know that water gets them wet, and that water makes all things wet. Does it really? No not really.
I also see a general agreement. You can't itneract with a HG for all of three minutes and know if they are played well. Intelligence is just on side of the coin for RPing a HG. What about their social mimicry? How hard is it to convince them? If you give them direction, will they follow it to the letter? Or just achieve the end goal?

To judge a PC on one thing you cannot measure without enough time spent around them is an injustice and ignorant. I have been insulted via private message because my HG wasn't behaving "correctly." Here is the situation they saw:
My HG and a fellow HG ambush a character. PC comes on the scene, sees a hulking HG and flees directly into an area with HG2. The PC KNOWS that these HGs set up an elaborate ambush.

Here is what really happened:
My HG doesn't want to ambush the guy at all, so they sit off to the side. My HG knows that it is a dangerous PC and there is no reason for them to try and kill someone dangerous. HG1 sits and waits for the PC. PC shows up and runs away. My HG sees PC running towards them and is startled. In defense, my HG defends themself until HG1 comes back over.

In playing a HG and playing around them, I have seen people blatently tell them something completely in opposite of what they have been doing all along and when the HG doesn't do it, that PC obviously ignores that HG for the rest of the time. You can't convince someone with just a few witty sentences. Just like you can't convince a kid to go home with a stranger after they have been taught about stranger danger.

If I were to point out one thing that would improve the HGs roleplay, I'd say to have more dynamic PCs around it. When the halfgiant doesn't have anything to mimic, fail at, or otherwise learn from their fellow PCs, they cannot RP correctly.
Bottom line: Don't judge until you are fully aware and have measured all facets of a personality.

I tend to give players of HGs the benefit of the doubt.  Unless you're playing a psion, you can't know what that character is thinking.  Unless you can read minds in real life, you can't know what the player is thinking.  Almost all of the half-giant's I've played with consistently enough to get an idea of how the PC was working have been great.

As for staying in the stupid mindset, I played a consistently stupid PC once.  She wasn't a half-giant, but she was a blast.  Though I guess maybe she would have been trouble if she'd been very long-lived.  My advice for anyone trying to play stupid is to remember that 'stupid' is not a whole personality set.  Are you stupid and good-natured?  Stupid and mean-tempered?  Stupid and selfish?  What variety of stupid are you - unimaginative, overly trusting, easy to trick, unable to pick up on subtle meanings, liable to forget instructions, someone with a complete lack of ability to plan ahead, insanely overly compulsive?  Accepting, xenophobic, or just don't care?  Do you remember all those things your mom told you not to do, or do you need to be constantly reminded?  Unfriendly or chatty?  What kind of sense of humor do you have?

I've done some work with handicapped kids, though, so I've seen that even a kid with Downs Syndrome can be as cunning as any other kid (a kid a couple years younger probably), especially if they're spending a lot of time with people who are cunning... the thing is that they're just as likely to try a trick in the wrong context as in the right one, or repeat a joke they've heard with some critical point missing that turns it into a headscratcher.  And they definitely have distinct personalities and distinct manifestations of how their mind works.

A lot of times, I'll spend a good amount of time when I'm planning a new PC just imagining how they would react to certain situations.  With the stupid one, I would formulate a stream of logic, and then leave out or alter a step.  I would think how statements could be misinterpreted if read literally, or where the 'common sense' would be left into a string of instructions--and then take it out.

Just my two cents.   :D

Val, Sam...Um...that is all well and good but, How should I put this...Oh, Yes, We are not talking about humans, We are not talking about children. We are talking about a game creature created by magick that may or may not even be related to humans. In fact, the docs state more then once that a HG is not to be portrayed as a child. Apples and Battleships. You would do better to compare them to puppies.

As to me quoting the docs, you assume I care enough. I don't really, but I will anyway.

As to the ambush, yours sounds like a different event somewhat more recent. Interesting though that you assume PC resources to be limited to one facet though.


Mallow and Aru might very well be correct, of course I'm actually thinking if nothing else some of you might have gone back and read the HG docs again...not a bad thing in my mind.

As to Thunk, The docs clearly state most of what I said, only one item is inferred, Lack of imagination, but since Imagination requires something the docs state clearly HG do not have...

QuoteSubtlety requires two things: flexibility of thought, and multilevel thought. Since half-giants are absolutely lacking in both of these, they are some of the least subtle creatures in the known world. A half-giant will tend to say what's on their mind, and be absolutely incapable of manipulation, deceit, or any other kind subtle undertakings.

Manipulation and Deceit, both required for said ambush, clearly stated HG is ABSOLUTELY INCAPABLE of.

QuoteHalf-giants are also practically incapable of thinking in the abstract. Nebulous concepts such as justice, love and honor are hard to truly grasp even for many of us - for a half-giant it may as well be impossible! A half-giant will have difficulty understanding anything that they couldn't physically wrap their hands around. This makes half-giants easier to control as slaves and other laborers, and because of this are often found among the ranks of soldiers. The half-giant mind makes them prone to cheerful adoption of others customs. Perhaps due to their inability to see beyond their present situation, a half-giant is rarely an unhappy individual.

QuoteThey are very easily tricked. They cannot think flexibly or with subtlety, they cannot grasp abstract concepts, and they are highly suggestible and trusting. All together, these things make half-giants very easy to manipulate. A half-giant does not attach any value to an item other than that which it seems to have at the moment, and the same goes for a friend.

Imagination is the use of the abstract portion of the mind, Something a HG simply does not have.
I find it amusing that people have a hard time with this, since it is the one thing that truly sets humans on earth apart from all other living things. Something that, so far as science can determine, only we have.

A half-giant might be incapable of ambushing someone as in, coming up with the idea on their own but they are perfectly capable of executing :

"Maxamos, stand over here behind this huge ass rock...a lone rider will come by soon and when he does...jump out from behind this big fucker and smash his fucking head in. Got it?"

"Okay boss."

Hey, I already said that was fine...sheesh. Thats what HG gate guards in nak are after all.

Didn't read the whole thread, I was agreeing with your points.

Oh, my bag.

Well, when people are throwing up numbers like 99% horribly roleplayed, it makes one think they don't really care to delve into each halfgiant they encounter. One may look for a sign of "The bad roleplayed" and consider the case settled and time saved.

I'd say most halfgiants are well played, but people expect a lot more emoting/actions/character development than the vast majority of other races. Personally, I really dislike HGs that are comic relief. That isn't to say comic relief is "bad roleplay," but it grates on my nerves.

Question:
What are some of the common errors made by half giants through history? Besides intelligence, what "actions" have they done that you would consider bad roleplay of a HG?

One that always gets me is going from dumb, off the wall comments, to snarky comments and back again all within a few sentences.

It takes a fair amount of time to tell the difference between a poorly-played half-giant that's acting too smart and a well-played one who's spent a lot of time around another character who acts smart.

Personally, I've seen more half-giants that are played too stupidly ("ME SMASH BAD MAN!") than too smart.

I give all HGs the benefit of the doubt, It is the rare HG that I will sit there and go, Man, this guy is horrible, on a first meeting. It usually takes several before I'm going, Gah, and wanting to OOC that they should read the docs a few more times and make an attempt to play to them.

Common mistakes, well, the one that gets me most is the HG that never makes mistakes. Never gets distracted. I don't expect a HG to make a mistake talking, they should actually do that well. But lets give another example that really happened.

My PC runs across a HG, the HG never sees him but does catch his tracks. My PC has no interest in this HG so continues on after watching him.

I sneak past a few critters and stop, 20 something rooms away and not in a straight line. Several minutes later, see HG coming, I hide and wait, HG kills one of the critters, checks tracks, keeps coming. So I begin checking to see if HG is indeed tracking my PC, loop around, find more critters and other PCs. HG keeps coming, and when he lost the tracks he started to circle out till he found them again. Over the course of two hours this HG never made a mistake, never got distracted, it was the giant version of a arm tracking mob. I'd hide in a room, HG came in, hunted, found no track leading out and though he could not see my PC, he started talking anyway, hunting every so often, when I left he came on again. So I went a direction he simply could not go. 15 minutes later I see him coming again, after he went the 30 rooms around the obstacle.

Sure, that is an extreme example, but you get the point, I left the player hundreds of openings to make a mistake and act like a HG, they did not.

Let your HG make mistakes, it is more fun in the long run...I had a HG militia and a templar told him a brown haired human with scars was a criminal, find him and bring him to jail.....you have no idea how many brown haired PCs and NPCs made it to jail that day.

I want to click "like" on 7DV's post. Half-giants, to me, are a lot like young children in huge bodies.

* Children speak simply and need to be spoken to simply if comprehension is the desired outcome
* Children imitate those that they look up to in word and deed
* Children feel really strongly about what they THINK they know to be true
* Children are easily influenced for better or worse by those they admire
* Children can be very kind or cruel depending on how they're raised, because their moral compass is unformed
* Children can have a vivid imagination
* Children are capable of extraordinary displays of intelligence about specific things IF they have a good teacher or leader on a consistent basis
* Children are highly adaptable and can have different behavior patterns for different people in their lives
* Children frequently test their limits
* Children make a lot of mistakes

I could go on, but yeah, look to the children on how to RP a half-giant.

How would a HG's intelligence blossom?

Do they reach a peak at their races equiviliant to a nine year old human (or whatever inteligence they are supposed to have)? Or do their mental abilities progress with age, I am talking from baby to adult.

Also, could there not be that RARE intelligent HG, which would steal not touch a human's abilities, but would dwarf other HG's intelligence?

Quote from: Shepard on November 26, 2010, 04:30:08 PM
How would a HG's intelligence blossom?

Do they reach a peak at their races equiviliant to a nine year old human (or whatever inteligence they are supposed to have)? Or do their mental abilities progress with age, I am talking from baby to adult.

Also, could there not be that RARE intelligent HG, which would steal not touch a human's abilities, but would dwarf other HG's intelligence?

No, there could not be that rare intelligent HG. Half-giants are mysterious mutated creatures forged from races of humanoids that were never intended to breed. Their brains do not contain the necessary cell function to be "intelligent." That they are even sentient is considered miraculous.

They ARE capable of speaking in complete sentences, because they make good mimics - not unlike a parrot. They also manage to figure out how to eat, drink, and groom themselves - again, not unlike a parrot. They manage to figure out how to move from point A to point B, like a parrot. Half-giants are stupid creatures. They are humanoid, but they are not humans. At full capacity, after managing to live to a ripe old age in captivity and pampered and somehow not dying (which might also be due to being just too stupid to die), they will hopefully be marginally more intelligent than a parrot.

Parrots are actually highly intelligent birds with (depending on the species) a complex social life.

EDIT: For those who think parrots are only mimics, educate yourself about Alex (an African Grey) here: Alex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot))

The problem is Fnord, the docs directly contradict you, 7DV and anybody else comparing them to children.

QuoteAre All Half-Giants Stupid?

Yes. The wisest of half-giants is probably no more clever than a rather dim-witted human. But it is important to understand what is meant by stupidity. Many people attribute stupidity falsely - for example, to primitive peoples or to children. Stupidity doesn't really describe either of these cases; ignorance or naivety are perhaps better words. So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept.

And farther on

QuoteSimilarly, speaking like a child is not the most appropriate way to portray a half-giant. Very young children often speak poorly because they have not grasped the proper situations to use words in. As mentioned above, half-giants are very attentive to such things. It will take them longer to figure it out than it would a human, but an adult half-giant understands most grammatical rules - especially the simple ones

Lizzie states a very good example, mostly because she is able to stay away from anything even remotely human when trying to explain HG.

They might be part human in how they are made, but some parts of the brain that make Humans simply do not exist in the HG brain, and so some things are totally impossible for one, no matter how smart or how well taught.

Base line being, they are NOT human.

Edit, Salt merchant, sub in Dog, Stingray, crow, or any other animal that is not human, capable of mimicry and some learning. Sheesh. Or maybe put the parrot comment in random thoughts?

Yes, I agree with X-D.

Children act they way they do primarily because of their inexperience. Children lack knowledge because they haven't had a chance to learn it yet. However, language is a good example of how the child brain is different from the adult brain. Famously, children pick up language much quicker than adults. That doesn't make them smarter; it makes them different. Half giants do not have child like brains, and neither are they retarded adults. I think it is more instructive to think of them as a kind of unique, ultra intelligent animal, but we have to be careful about what we mean by intelligence in this context. A bird makes a nest and a spider weaves a web, but that doesn't make them intelligent. Half giants can learn how to make a master work dagger, but only after they have studied the design and probably watched a master crafter at work. They don't learn like humans do, and this is why they are so difficult to play.

Documentation states they excel at mimicry and empathy, but they lack a culture of their own. I think it is a reasonable deduction from this that they are uncreative and lack an ability to generalize knowledge. They are good at rote learning, but they will never innovate. However, they display good 'emotional intelligence' so they may be perceptive of body language and tone of voice.

Either we've got a bunch of linguist-philosophers in this community, or this thread is full of crap.

I plan to play HGs in the future and I'm not sure if this thread is helpful or alarming to me.

The GDB hate cycle skipped a few steps this year, didn't it?

So basically X-D got ganked by some HGs once thus making the answer to "did half-giants get smarter suddenly" 'no'.

QuoteFrom their giant kin, half-giants have inherited incredible size and strength, and their endurance is matched only by muls and sturdy dwarves. However, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms. In addition, because of their great size, half-giants are typically slow to move and have low agilities. Half-giants, because of their great size, cannot usually wear clothing or armor designed for smaller demihumans.

Roleplaying: Half-giants have no culture to speak of. Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends. This trait can be either a benefit or a serious detriment to those friends (or neighbors), depending on the circumstances. Half- giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

Half-giants (as the other races) have the same stats, and they can be low or high relative to their race. Half-giants can learn complex skills, memorize them, and repeat them without necessarily having anyone to mimic nearby. Half-giants can potentially do magick. It says half-giants rapidly adopt other's behaviors, not that they can only learn or act based on mimicing those around them, not that the proclivity to do so is because they're a sentient animal. After all, at which point would you then RP any non-human race as alien? There are definitely some gray areas. Do dwarves have a focus because their brain is different or is that a racial tendency? Are halflings animals/aliens because they cannibalize or is it a racial/cultural tendency? To me, the only truly "alien" race is a mantis, but that's another discussion.

I'm not arguing for half-giants to be RP'd as highly intelligent. I've seen my share of half-giant cheese that made no sense. What I am suggesting is there is no one right answer. If you want to RP your half-giant as an alien lifeform that has a different brain due to their magickal origins, more power to you. If you want to RP your half-giant like a sentient animal or a child locked at age six, more power to you. Just don't play your half-giant as an excuse to have a really big tough human. They're only half human at best.

I've always wondered why people think animals are stupid?

If as it seems to keep popping up that HG are just really big animals then I fear what they would do, and ask why are they not in the top spot if their just big animals?
Look at alot of the animals nowadays lions, wolves, feral dogs, spiders, types of fish all use tactics that no HG would be able to think up in hunting their prey. Tactics that humans have adapted in many of their hunting ways, as well as in warfare, and modern ways of life.

The biggest peeve of mine when watching someone play a HG is seeing them talk like someone with a Degree in english. Big multisyllable words, and having intelligent conversations about things outside of what they've learned. Ie. a hg warrior talking politics like a Templar? wtf?? I doubt very seriously if any HG would have the skill or know how to do so. Especially not one who is taught how to use a weapon, march and everything else a warrior must do. If he's guarding a Templar still no it would be much for his brain to handle. and he'd have to 'forget' some of the old to replace the new.

I much rather see HG as Neanderthals, or some ancient civiltion around the ice age era.  This being adaptablity, the ability to mimick those around them without knowing the hows our whys, limited in their compacity to learn and grow as a whole, unable to handle the subtle things in life, or anything outside the box. Focused instead on what they are taught, or have picked up from watching others. A genuis among HG would be able to pick up maybe a few the more subtle things. If you told him to be a fly on the wall he wouldn't try climbing on the wall for example but after a few moments of thoughts he may be able to get the jest of what you mean. Probably foul it up but still that walls still standing.
As for their speech, it would be simple basic things to get there points across. Insult one of them subtly and I very seriously doubt theyd get it but be more like "HUH" all the while nodding and grinning.

Never been HG ganked actually, They are sadly easy to kill, but that is a different thread.

And Fnord, thats the docs dealing mostly with Code, and we are talking more HG RP.. So again basically belonging in a different thread.

The last section I can mostly agree with, cepting of course the child part.

Oh, and dwarven focus has been talked to death, but the staff answer is, all dwarves have a focus, regardless of how and where raised etc, so it has to be something in the dwarf brain not a tendency. And also another thread.

Edit

I also see them as much like neanderthals.

Quote from: Synthesis on November 26, 2010, 05:31:47 PM
Either we've got a bunch of linguist-philosophers in this community, or this thread is full of crap.

Could go either way. Both things could be true.

Quote from: X-D on November 26, 2010, 06:26:28 PM
Edit

I also see them as much like neanderthals.

So quite intelligent?

Again, that depends on what applies as intelligent, I have already said, I have no problem with HG learning by rote, mimic etc, just no abstract thinking or imagination, the two things Neanderthal were also missing. As has already been mentioned, parrots can be considered intelligent mimics, that does not mean they are human intelligent, they have no science, culture or art....hhhmm, neither do half-giants...go figure.

Quote from: X-D on November 26, 2010, 06:36:02 PM
Again, that depends on what applies as intelligent, I have already said, I have no problem with HG learning by rote, mimic etc, just no abstract thinking or imagination, the two things Neanderthal were also missing. As has already been mentioned, parrots can be considered intelligent mimics, that does not mean they are human intelligent, they have no science, culture or art....hhhmm, neither do half-giants...go figure.

But they were just as intelligent if not more so than Homo Sapiens, with advanced tools and society? Do you just make shit up or what?

Just because they don't have a culture of their own doesn't mean they are incapable of their own ideas. It could be their tendency of mimicry that has a lot to do with it in my opinion.

Perhaps the docs are left vague on purpose. Until they are updated with more specifics I think everyone should take what X-D and everyone (including me) as merely opinion. Read the docs and decide for yourself.

Uhh... Yeah. Neanderthals were not stupid, and were not uncreative morons, either. Also - big game hunting almost certainly required abstract thought to pull off successfully.

X-D: Thanks for the quotations. I see where you're coming from, though I think you still interpret those docs a bit strictly.

Quote from: Clavis on November 26, 2010, 06:21:55 PM
The biggest peeve of mine when watching someone play a HG is seeing them talk like someone with a Degree in english.

If a half-giant spent a large amount of time listening to someone who uses big words, what other type of words would you expect the half-giant to use? A conversation with political nuance would be ridiculous. A conversation that used political words and phrases (usually incorrectly) would be exactly what you would expect. There was a h-g once who had spent time with a merchant. This h-g would make broad, speculative remarks about the current economy that were completely wacky, but were just spitting back complaints/comments he'd heard multiple times. The first time you heard him, you might think he was smart. Then the next time you heard the same comment ... and the next time ... and the next time ...

My biggest pet peeve is half-giants who talk like "cave men" (unless they're around other races that also talk like cave-men). If your h-g doesn't spend time around people who talk like half-wits, don't talk like a half-wit.*

*I am not referring to actual, historical cave-men or to people who today live in caves, but rather to the modern American cultural stereotype of how cavemen speak.$

You need to read up my friend.

Advanced tools, they were around for something like 200,000 years and never got past hand axe, heavy thrusting spear and VERY simple bone and stone knives? They did not fish, they had no art, they may have buried dead by dumping them in an out of the way cave, they did not eat small animals, did not trap, did not farm and lived almost totally on meat because they were not capable of figuring out things other then meat that they could live on, they lived in small family groups...I doubt that is any type of advanced culture. Oh, and the tools, yes, Neanderthal tools remained the same from beginning to end 200k++ years. Proof that they used what worked (like a HG) and were not capable of improving on that, most likely due to lack of imagination. All that time around and they never even figured out how to throw a spear. Something Humans figured out in less then ten thousand years. Oh, and they, like HG were not human, it is doubtful that the two could even breed.

And Wolfsong, really, what exactly counts as uncreative then? Taking more then 5 million years to go from thrusting spear to throwing spear? And Big game hunting would in fact be the simplest type, They are big, slow and easy to find, they have lots of meat....HG thinking at its finest.

Thunk, Maybe I do interpret them strictly, But I like to work towards the best model possible. Sure, I cannot play a HG to even my top standards, but at least I try, rather then pick some (blunt) Half-assed point involving two lines of the docs. Oh, and HG captain caveman speak is a peeve as well, I have OOC people on that before. OOC Dude, where exactly is the group of people your HG learned to talk from!!!...twitch.

... I don't currently have the evidence to back up my claims, but I recall Neanderthals not only having art, but it being very likely they cross-bred with humans.

I think the reason XD is so strict (and why I and some others tend to side with him on this), is because too many people who've played HGs, have veered so far away from the docs in their interpretation that they all seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

The whole "talk like Tonto" thing - there's nothing in the docs that even *suggest* that HGs talk like that. In fact the docs are pretty clear, in that HGs are prone to taking on speech mannerisms of people they hang out with. And yet - there are HG players who insist that their HGs talk like Tonto.

The ability to strategize in advance - is not something a HG should be capable of doing. And yet I have watched HGs anticipate the activities of complete strangers, with an uncanny ability to follow through on complex strategem of their own creation (in other words, no one told them exactly what to do. They knew exactly what to do.).

We see players of half-giants playing like Tonto-talking, clever, complex, completely competent, thoughtful humans. And they're just not. So - rather than say "yeah go ahead and play the exception, that's what rules are for" we're saying "stop playing the exception, because everyone is playing the exception, and the rule is fading away."

You're setting the example for newer players who might never experience the documented suggestions of HG roleplay. And so they'll see the docs and say "oh - well obviously no one pays attention to the docs" - and they'll roll up an elf and wonder why everyone's giving them shit for riding an inix.

Quote from: X-D on November 26, 2010, 06:55:55 PM
You need to read up my friend.

Advanced tools, they were around for something like 200,000 years and never got past hand axe, heavy thrusting spear and VERY simple bone and stone knives? They did not fish, they had no art, they may have buried dead by dumping them in an out of the way cave, they did not eat small animals, did not trap, did not farm and lived almost totally on meat because they were not capable of figuring out things other then meat that they could live on, they lived in small family groups...I doubt that is any type of advanced culture. Oh, and the tools, yes, Neanderthal tools remained the same from beginning to end 200k++ years. Proof that they used what worked (like a HG) and were not capable of improving on that, most likely due to lack of imagination. All that time around and they never even figured out how to throw a spear. Something Humans figured out in less then ten thousand years. Oh, and they, like HG were not human, it is doubtful that the two could even breed.

And Wolfsong, really, what exactly counts as uncreative then? Taking more then 5 million years to go from thrusting spear to throwing spear? And Big game hunting would in fact be the simplest type, They are big, slow and easy to find, they have lots of meat....HG thinking at its finest.

Nice try, but go and read up yourself. Even wiki does a decent job, go figure. I also don't care what you 'doubt is an advanced culture', because you've made it quite clear you have no idea what you're talking about and all your HG rage is over narrow interpretations of the docs and your personal feelings on how they should be played - and as usual, nobody is up to par.

Quote from: Kalai on November 26, 2010, 07:02:15 PM
... I don't currently have the evidence to back up my claims, but I recall Neanderthals not only having art, but it being very likely they cross-bred with humans.

They did, some of it better then others. They also may have had a spoken language. not just the previous uses of hand talk to get thier points across. They where also limited in their creations doing what was done in the past, what others thought up. They just went with the flow, do to lack of developed portions of the brain.

I'm sure as well HG's can draw crude and basic compared to what a normal Zal human child can do. yet they couldn't maybe wouldn't adapt as fast as modern day humans. Lot of that why we are Modern Humans and not naenderthal humans.

Which is how I see HG's is the fact that what they Know they know. What they don't know well they just dont. And will take hundreds of years to develop to begin to learn.  Through in magic and I don't think they would be able to.

I still don't believe that a HG can never come up with his own idea. The docs just say they are incredibly stupid. They would come up with incredibly stupid ideas on their own.

I think the first thing a Hg would do is find a friend or friends. The best friend becomes the one most emulated. And with the various degrees friendship come emulation. Then the HG slowly begins to convert from his last "best" friend to his new best friend over time before moving on when they die.

I think people read too much into the stupid part and not enough into the mimicry and need for direction from friendship.

And all our opinions are just showing off really. Even staff are humans with human thought patterns. How likely is it that any of us can accurately portray the alien mindsets of dwarfs, and elves, much less HGs, mantis, and halflings.

I believe several of you have spoken your piece.  I understand a few back-and-forths, but three pages worth?

If you are unable to figure out how to play a half-giant from reading the docs and cross-referencing terms with other help files, then I think you should send a request to the Staff for advice.

Maybe I have half-giant intelligence and don't understand what there is to debate about. ;)

Cro magnon art.

And the wiki on the subject is rather out of date, for instance, it is accepted now (as of august) That there is no evidence at all that cro-magnon and neanderthal interbred. Though that is europe, asia might be a different story but that is still disputed as well.

As well, most of what is in wiki is widely disputed and or out of date.

Though some things that are not in any real dispute is the length of time they existed and the advancement of tech, Or the timeline of the advancement. So far as I can find there is one finding that they think might have been a thrown spear and 1 finding of what might have been throwing spears. Art, seems highly debated still, I will withdraw my statement in the lack of such for the time being. Assuming body paint truly counts as art.

In wiki the average reference citation etc is 8 years old. I do get a kick out of one dated 2007 saying Neanderthal and humans probobly bred and another in 2009 saying No, they did not.

Taken as a whole the wiki entries are laughable at best.

Oh, and Seph, we have I think moved on to the GDB natural evolution in a thread, that of the MAD DERAIL!!!!

Edit again.
GO CUTTHROAT!

Quote from: Titania on November 26, 2010, 07:26:48 PM
I still don't believe that a HG can never come up with his own idea. The docs just say they are incredibly stupid. They would come up with incredibly stupid ideas on their own.

I think the first thing a Hg would do is find a friend or friends. The best friend becomes the one most emulated. And with the various degrees friendship come emulation. Then the HG slowly begins to convert from his last "best" friend to his new best friend over time before moving on when they die.

I think people read too much into the stupid part and not enough into the mimicry and need for direction from friendship.

And all our opinions are just showing off really. Even staff are humans with human thought patterns. How likely is it that any of us can accurately portray the alien mindsets of dwarfs, and elves, much less HGs, mantis, and halflings.

Well put.

The Neanderthal comparison (even if the facts given about Neanderthal were correct) is just... not even relevant. From the docs: So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept. Half-giant stupidity relies on simplistic problem-solving methods; half-giants gain knowledge through imitation.

The Half-Giant Social Plight (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfgiantsocial.html) explains rather well what's expected of a half-giant. According to the documentation, these are ways players could and should express half-giant intelligence when playing one:

Low Attention Resources: Half-giants do one thing at a time and focus very hard on it to do it correctly. For example, if a half-giant is told to "bring back a dead carru" he would pass by just about anything but a carru until he finds one. The gurth he passes by isn't a carru. The carru is a carru and that's what he's bringing back.
Inflexibility: If the half-giant is used to using a certain club to beat a carru to death, even though the antlers stick him in the crotch every time he hunts one, he will stick to using the club. The club works, and even though throwing a log at it from far away will prevent his crotch from being stabbed, he knows for certain that the club worked before, so it will work again.
Perseverance: The example in the docs is good enough. "It is not beyond the grounds of reason for a half-giant to keep purchasing ale while waiting in a tavern, simply because that's what they do in taverns."
Lack of Subtlety: Again from the docs "A half-giant will tend to say what's on their mind, and be absolutely incapable of manipulation, deceit, or any other kind subtle undertakings." and "Half-giants are also practically incapable of thinking in the abstract."
Imitation: The half-giant learns from the ones around him, and is perfectly capable of repeating phrases he overhears even if he doesn't understand what he is saying. A half-giant raised by elves might try to steal but doesn't quite understand the complex process involved in, say, picking a lock or pickpocketing. A half-giant raised by dwarves might think he has a focus, but it's rather lame and ends up constantly shifting.
Overtrusting: The half-giant can't possibly imagine why someone would be trying to trick him. It can likely determine obvious consequences, though, if someone attempts to trick them into doing something condemned by those around them.

It's somewhat easy to understand, but hard to actually play out. Sometimes expressing half-giant traits requires other players to be careless when giving orders to half-giants, or requires the player of the half-giant to think of ways to misinterpret a command or plan to mean something else. It requires players to treat half-giants like, well, half-giants.

Non sequitor, forgive me:

I always felt a well played half giant is a little like Defendor, from the movie with the same name.
Naive, and simple but still capable of surprising people.

Quote from: Cutthroat on November 26, 2010, 07:49:34 PM
The Neanderthal comparison (even if the facts given about Neanderthal were correct) is just... not even relevant. From the docs: So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept. Half-giant stupidity relies on simplistic problem-solving methods; half-giants gain knowledge through imitation.

The Half-Giant Social Plight (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfgiantsocial.html) explains rather well what's expected of a half-giant. According to the documentation, these are ways players could and should express half-giant intelligence when playing one:

Low Attention Resources: Half-giants do one thing at a time and focus very hard on it to do it correctly. For example, if a half-giant is told to "bring back a dead carru" he would pass by just about anything but a carru until he finds one. The gurth he passes by isn't a carru. The carru is a carru and that's what he's bringing back.
Inflexibility: If the half-giant is used to using a certain club to beat a carru to death, even though the antlers stick him in the crotch every time he hunts one, he will stick to using the club. The club works, and even though throwing a log at it from far away will prevent his crotch from being stabbed, he knows for certain that the club worked before, so it will work again.
Perseverance: The example in the docs is good enough. "It is not beyond the grounds of reason for a half-giant to keep purchasing ale while waiting in a tavern, simply because that's what they do in taverns."
Lack of Subtlety: Again from the docs "A half-giant will tend to say what's on their mind, and be absolutely incapable of manipulation, deceit, or any other kind subtle undertakings." and "Half-giants are also practically incapable of thinking in the abstract."
Imitation: The half-giant learns from the ones around him, and is perfectly capable of repeating phrases he overhears even if he doesn't understand what he is saying. A half-giant raised by elves might try to steal but doesn't quite understand the complex process involved in, say, picking a lock or pickpocketing. A half-giant raised by dwarves might think he has a focus, but it's rather lame and ends up constantly shifting.
Overtrusting: The half-giant can't possibly imagine why someone would be trying to trick him. It can likely determine obvious consequences, though, if someone attempts to trick them into doing something condemned by those around them.

It's somewhat easy to understand, but hard to actually play out. Sometimes expressing half-giant traits requires other players to be careless when giving orders to half-giants, or requires the player of the half-giant to think of ways to misinterpret a command or plan to mean something else. It requires players to treat half-giants like, well, half-giants.

Damn good post.

The carru scenario could even be taken a step further.  I love the image of a HG roaming for days on end, hoping to find a dead carru.

My characters often wind up purchasing ale because it's what one is expected to do in a tavern.  :-[

HG arrives with pair of carru boots.

Cutthroat rocks.

Definitely some good opinions on both sides and I for one will definitely watch someone a bit more before judging but my opinion on this subject is still the same.  I've played a few half-giants, even stored one I knew I was playing too smart but I got the best interaction from other players the more independent I was.  I've also thrown myself out there as a tool for someone to use and have been passed up by many players who played perfectly fine with my "smart" half-giant.  So, maybe the problem isn't just with the players of the half-giant but the interaction they are given by others.  I don't know, but I still feel they're too smart right now.

I wish LoD was here to make a really long post that makes every go, "Oooooooh, wow, I understand now. Awesome."

Sprucebark does have another point, and I had the same problem with my HGs, at least getting a "boss" HG make great minions if handled properly, but man, finding a good boss is just this side of impossible, and even when you do, they die a week or a month later. Le'Sigh.

Post removed, see below if you give a damn why! :)

There was a good thread a few months back called 'hard roles to play' or something of that nature, and Half-giants were in it.

Lots of good thoughts there, Jriley and Malifaxis had some stuff to say that whether you agree with or not, is at least insightful.

Anyway, to reiterate what was said there?  It's a hard, hard balancing act to play a half-giant.  If you go to the complete ignoramus, you're doing it wrong or playing an exception.  If you play them too smart, you're doing it wrong.  You have to remain in the middle, which is often very hard to do, particularly in the early ages of a half-giant, and most of them are indeed relatively short-lived.

However, I very very rarely see them played to the level of intelligence this thread is insinuating.  I said something in that thread that I will repeat here...they are not blank slates.  They have thoughts, emotions, and can be taught, and depending on their background, that can result in a very different set of thoughts and cognitions than one immediately assumes.  If it gets to the severe point that is insinuated...an individualized character complaint is far more in order, though I'd request you phrase it in a way that is constructive feedback rather than harsh condescension, since...as noted...half-giants are very difficult.

One thing that always gets me though, is how alot of players.... Or "characters", actually, think they can just throw a half-giant a few pieces of candy and expect the half-giant to fall right into their half-baked plan.

One of my half-giants had that happen all the time.  People would give my character something worthless but shiny or yummy and expect my character to turn over a pile of sweet shit my character had that wasn't.  Even a complete idiot can tell that a pile of precious stones that everyone's slavering over is worth more than a sweet bun.  Seriously people.

Quote from: Marshmellow on November 27, 2010, 12:22:51 PM
One of my half-giants had that happen all the time.  People would give my character something worthless but shiny or yummy and expect my character to turn over a pile of sweet shit my character had that wasn't.  Even a complete idiot can tell that a pile of precious stones that everyone's slavering over is worth more than a sweet bun.  Seriously people.

There's also the option to trade back something equally useless that the half-giant thinks is really impressive. Here, have this purple feather. It makes you taller. An elf told me that when he sold it.

This info is all really useful for me!

Though I'm sometimes unsure which info is correct and which isn't.

Quote from: Synthesis on June 22, 2006, 04:44:47 AM
I've tried to play half-giants within a few simple guidelines.  These are just a few rules I mulled over while playing half-giants, and I think they work reasonably well.

1. Half-giants can remember things, but they have difficulty linking concepts together.  So, for instance, a half-giant may remember the way to the secret fortress of Doom, and he may remember that Templars hate the guys who live in the Doom fortress, but he's not going to go off and tell the Templars about the fortress unless prompted to by some outside intelligence (which sort of leads into the second guideline).  Similarly, a half-giant might subconsciously remember a rather long list of names, but his difficulty will be in recalling them without some sort of prompting.  I imagine it as a sort of cognitive blockage relating to information-retrieval:  they can store information, but their retrieval pathways are limited by their inability to attend to more than a few things (see below). 

2. Half-giants don't generally consider the value of objects beyond their immediate needs or desires.  I imagine this is because there are somewhat advanced concepts of what is valuable, and a half-giant wouldn't make the connection.  This doesn't mean that a half-giant wouldn't give a pile of 'sid a second glance.  It means that a half-giant would take that pile of 'sid and buy a whole lot of whatever he was craving or needed at that particular moment.  For example, I've had a half-giant with five or more mounts/pack animals,a half-giant with dozens of full waterskins, a half-giant with enough travel cakes to bury a dwarf alive. 

3. Half-giants have an "attention space" that consists of 3 desires and 3 "actions."  One of the desires is always taken up by the desire to fit in with whoever they're hanging with.  What I mean by "actions" is this:  my half-giant will be able to think basically and take action on 3 directives or imperatives at any given time.  However, the "actions" should all be closely related by a simple concept.  So for instance, his "action" space might be taken up by 1) Keep the compound safe, 2) Tell the Sergeant about the elf he saw sneaking around, and 3) Report for training in the morning.

4. Half-giants are easily distracted.  They cannot hold many things in their "attention space," so if something new comes up, something gets dropped.  Existing items in the attention space get replaced  in order of habit.  If a half-giant habitually guards the compound and reports for training, he won't forget about these things unless something -drastic- happens.  So if Lord Templar Hardnose shows up to inspect the compound, my half-giant would probably completely forget about the elf he saw sneaking around, and tell the Sergeant about the Templar instead.

5.  Because of the above, they are creatures of habit.  Once a half-giant has a set routine, they won't vary it unless something distracts them, or someone gives them a new directive.

These guidelines allow a half-giant to be capable of independent, self-sustaining action without making them simply strong humans with a lot of hitpoints.  Obviously, there's a lot of wiggle room and grey area left over, but these 5 basic ideas provide sort of a skeleton from which you can construct a realistic character.

This was my take on the whole thing, from 2006.

tl;dr version:

1. Reasonable memory with limited spontaneous recall/retrieval.
2. Limited ability to predict and/or plan for future events.
3. 3-item attention space.
4. Highly distractible.
5. Creatures of habit/routine.

Quote from: Ami on November 27, 2010, 02:10:02 PM
This info is all really useful for me!

Though I'm sometimes unsure which info is correct and which isn't.

It all depends upon how you want to portray a HG, no two will be played alike because no two peoples styles are the same.

I see HG one way and others see them another way. all of it is good and rather sound info some better then others.

Post removed because I agree with Boog.. this thread isn't productive.

For the record, I still like Synthesis' 2006 post.

How about...

let's just play the damn game. If you have problems with the way someone's played, write a complaint to staff about it. All of these degrading, arguing and mean spirited posts are the FIRST THINGS people who COME TO PLAY THIS GAME get to see.

A good focus I find for playing HGs is to consider their highly imitative nature in all things. I try to observe the accents of others, or any emotes people my HGs deal with frequently repeat - tics, mannerisms. I try to keep a list of examples, then based on how long I'm exposed to these people, I try to adapt them into my own play as directly and as single-mindedly as I can.

This'd be hell if I did it for everyone my character interacted with, especially in a clan, so I use another portion of how their mindset was portrayed in Dark Sun - they tend to be drawn to charismatic individuals to whom they emulate. Personally I use this as a filter to find people my character finds charismatic and who personally I find has the sort of emoting that lends itself to the process.

I figure not everyone would like such a convoluted way of getting into the mindset, but it really makes me focus on what my HGs' mind is doing under the hood when I play.

This thread ceased any sort of usefullness after IsFriday said the better way to handle it was a player complaint, not a GDB complaint.

There is not nearly enough imitation with half giants:  fact.
People play half giants entirely too intelligently:          fact.
People want all the benefits of HG, with no flaws:      fact.

I have, because of this, largely begun to avoid HG players in the game unless I have exposure to them in situations that allow me to believe that the player behind the PC actually has a fucking shred of a goddamn clue what half-giant mentality is.

I have a damn good grasp of what a half-giant should and should not be.  I've played them repeatedly, and I've been given several kudos for my work with them.

If more players had the balls that The Few and The Proud (ie: what people call "the Elite") do, then they'd have no problems taking those flaws that HGs have and using them as the awesome roleplaying tool they are, and enhancing the world even though it is harmful to the PC.

Instead, we have a load of marginally dumb (and by marginally, I mean they talk dumb.  Somehow they can still plan tactics like Sun-Tzu, react like Jet Li, and are as cunning as Black Adder wishes he was) high-school intelligence superheros with the strength of ten men.

But now that you've mentioned it, Boog, yeah, I won't try to be the change I want to see in the world anymore.  I tried that, it failed... repeatedly.

I'll just write a load of fucking complaints to the staff, increasing their work load and distracting them from more important concerns.

You've shown me the light.

And for the record, I'd rather have one educated newbie, who actually listens to the opinions and thoughts of veteran players that do understand the game on a deep level and then takes that knowledge and uses it to better both themselves and the game, than have ten newbies who thinks half-giant = 15 foot tall Stephen Hawking in power armor.

+1 rep points for Malifaxis. I agree.

I consider myself a veteran newbie.  8)

Quote from: Thorg on November 27, 2010, 06:52:33 PM
A good focus I find for playing HGs is to consider their highly imitative nature in all things. I try to observe the accents of others, or any emotes people my HGs deal with frequently repeat - tics, mannerisms. I try to keep a list of examples, then based on how long I'm exposed to these people, I try to adapt them into my own play as directly and as single-mindedly as I can.

This'd be hell if I did it for everyone my character interacted with, especially in a clan, so I use another portion of how their mindset was portrayed in Dark Sun - they tend to be drawn to charismatic individuals to whom they emulate. Personally I use this as a filter to find people my character finds charismatic and who personally I find has the sort of emoting that lends itself to the process.

I figure not everyone would like such a convoluted way of getting into the mindset, but it really makes me focus on what my HGs' mind is doing under the hood when I play.

+1

QuoteI have, because of this, largely begun to avoid HG players in the game unless I have exposure to them in situations that allow me to believe that the player behind the PC actually has a fucking shred of a goddamn clue what half-giant mentality is.

With me replace largely with totally.

And +1 for the post.

Avoiding play is the solution to improving roleplay.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 28, 2010, 05:17:42 PM
Avoiding play is the solution to improving roleplay.

Well, that's just it. I feel that people being outwardly snarky about their complaints and arguments aren't doing any good. You -can- lead by example, I'm not debating that. Lead by playing a fantastic half giant. Just don't rag on people who might not understand it. I'm sure they already have notes and all that mess in their account about their quality of RP.

There are fantastic half-giants in game, and people who play with those half-giants that might think you're discussing their roleplay -- all I really meant to say is to tone it down. If you don't like it, complain to people in a more private medium. If you don't like it, play it better than them and show them how it's done.

I'm not trying to make us all hold hands and shit. It's just the arguing in this thread made my head snap, a little.

I was being snarky, Boog. :P

Earlier I posted to say that you should send a player complaint, but try and phrase it in a way of constructive criticism to help with the role rather than making it an all out 'You should not play this' deal, because half-giants are very hard to 'get into the head of' so that the play becomes habitual.

Almost everything while playing a half-giant requires some sort of assessment as to how well your character will comprehend it, and how they'll react to it...which makes high intensity, low-time-availability situations (i.e. You are a half-giant, and you just got ambushed!) easy times to let instinct take over, which is where people complain that you actually ran and in an intelligent direction rather than stood there and gawked stupidly at the sheer genius of their trap (which generally consisted of a question or two where they outright depended on you to act dumb as rocks).

Quote from: Armaddict on November 28, 2010, 06:40:26 PM
I was being snarky, Boog. :P

Earlier I posted to say that you should send a player complaint, but try and phrase it in a way of constructive criticism to help with the role rather than making it an all out 'You should not play this' deal, because half-giants are very hard to 'get into the head of' so that the play becomes habitual.

Almost everything while playing a half-giant requires some sort of assessment as to how well your character will comprehend it, and how they'll react to it...which makes high intensity, low-time-availability situations (i.e. You are a half-giant, and you just got ambushed!) easy times to let instinct take over, which is where people complain that you actually ran and in an intelligent direction rather than stood there and gawked stupidly at the sheer genius of their trap (which generally consisted of a question or two where they outright depended on you to act dumb as rocks).

Oh. Well, you worded it nicely. But I agree. It shouldn't be, "MA, JIMMY CANT PLAY A HALF GIANT GOOD", it should be, "Ma, can you help Jimmy play a half-giant a little dumber? He seems to know too much of the world around him and his vocabulary when he's not around other people is that of a high-scoring SAT kid. Thanks!"

See? You were being snarky and I didn't even know it. I have no idea why I quoted you. I'm balls tired.

Oh, now I know why. I do try to play with everyone, but if someone is overtly OOC and ruins my immershunz, I will probably just pack up. No use in playing a game you're not having fun with.

Quote from: boog on November 28, 2010, 06:35:54 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on November 28, 2010, 05:17:42 PM
Avoiding play is the solution to improving roleplay.

Well, that's just it. I feel that people being outwardly snarky about their complaints and arguments aren't doing any good. You -can- lead by example, I'm not debating that. Lead by playing a fantastic half giant. Just don't rag on people who might not understand it. I'm sure they already have notes and all that mess in their account about their quality of RP.

There are fantastic half-giants in game, and people who play with those half-giants that might think you're discussing their roleplay -- all I really meant to say is to tone it down. If you don't like it, complain to people in a more private medium. If you don't like it, play it better than them and show them how it's done.

I'm not trying to make us all hold hands and shit. It's just the arguing in this thread made my head snap, a little.

I've been trying to get this point across for years, boog. What you have to realize is a. people don't care and b. some people think the GDB is as much if not more important than the MUD itself. I'll say it once and I'll say it again: If some Armers put as much effort, emotion, and creativity into the game instead of their GDB posts, we'd see a much richer caliber of RP.[/rant]

I've played two half-giants. In my opinion, they are the most difficult role to play longterm. Not only do you have to balance between being too smart or too dumb, but you basically have little to no means of creating plots due to half-giants' extreme dependency on others. And if there aren't any other half-giants (or uber warriors) around, sparring is out of the question. So, as you can imagine, solo-RPing with a half-giant gets pretty old pretty fast.

Also, as has already been said, if you witness a player playing a half-giant in an abusive manner, do all of us a favor and write up a complaint. There's enough deconstructive criticism littering the GDB already.

Guys, I don't even know why we're coming down so hard on HGs.

Today, I was sitting in the Sanctuary, and an elf walked in, and he didn't even TRY to steal my shit.
He should have been all over my diamond-studded steel dagger like a butchered demi-human on Belle Swan.

Did not meet my expectations of his role AT ALL.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on November 30, 2010, 11:14:46 PM
Guys, I don't even know why we're coming down so hard on HGs.

Today, I was sitting in the Sanctuary, and an elf walked in, and he didn't even TRY to steal my shit.
He should have been all over my diamond-studded steel dagger like a butchered demi-human on Belle Swan.

Did not meet my expectations of his role AT ALL.

I call you out, sir, for your lies!

Well, I know the elf that sold you the dagger, and well, it is made of stone painted silver and those are only quartz crystals, which is why I did not steal it, though now that I know you think it is real still, I will have to and we can sell it back to you again. Still, we are laughing and enjoying the 4 bricks of spice we could buy with what you paid.

Yes. Derailment successful!

I guess what I was trying to say (metaphorically?) is that this is just another thread of RP policing. There was another half-giant RP thread at least within the last year that I remember. At least that one was helpful, and not based off of an OP's complaint.

I also have come across a half-giant recently who I utterly hated. I just decided to leave him be and not play with him. When has a GDB thread that starts with "Why is everybody twinking?" ever been successful?

And, as X-D's response to my derailment demonstrated, maybe there's a reason?

We don't see (many) threads like:
Why do dwarves focuses suck?
Why would you use that word in your sdesc?
Dude, why is your hair that color?
That mutation is lame!!!
Too many F-me's, please stop, I'm late for sparring!

Because we assume that PCs are acting within some reason that may not be apparent to us. Personally, I've played a half-giant who had excellent grammar and vocabulary - because he was a BARD. A HG can be good at what he does. Everyone says they're beefy 9 year olds. Have you seen a 9 year old that can spell everything ever? Or one who totally rawks out guitar hero? Or can name the make and model of every car? We've seen all these things on TV and YouTube.

Maybe that guy's just playing a huge human. Or maybe he's in his element. I'm a HUGE fan of the idea of half-giant savants. I believe half-giants are probably more intuitive than most humans,  (Or at least close to.) and therefore could accel at certain things.

Or maybe someone's a twink.

Oh, forgot to add: the reason we don't see threads like the ones above is ALSO because we aren't threatened by those things.

Post count +1.

I just felt it necessary to make the point that Half-giants, as a race, are not and -should- not be compared to 9 year old human children.

Whether you "know some smart 9 year old" or "work with children" doesn't matter at all for a half-giant. Why? Because Half-giants are not human children. Human children may be "dumb" but they all have potential. A half-giant may only APPEAR more intelligent, but as a whole can never surpass a certain mental prowess.


Half-giants. Are not. 9 year old humans. Please, please stop using it as an excuse, point of reasoning, or Ginka-forbid a point of fact.

So what, Riev?  His point still stands.  A HG bard has reason to have excellent grammar and know some big words.  They're good at memorizing the most bizarre things and imitating those things (often in the wrong place or at the wrong time).

Quote from: Marshmellow on December 01, 2010, 10:07:52 AM
So what, Riev?  His point still stands.  A HG bard has reason to have excellent grammar and know some big words.  They're good at memorizing the most bizarre things and imitating those things (often in the wrong place or at the wrong time).

Oh yes. I seriously want to play/interact with/etc a half-giant bard now.

Quote from: Kalai on December 01, 2010, 10:18:13 AM
Oh yes. I seriously want to play/interact with/etc a half-giant bard now.

IMO, most half-giants are already convinced their mission is to entertain the playerbase.

Quote from: Majikal on December 01, 2010, 10:20:24 AM

Quote from: Kalai on December 01, 2010, 10:18:13 AM
Oh yes. I seriously want to play/interact with/etc a half-giant bard now.

IMO, most half-giants are already convinced their mission is to entertain the playerbase.

More singing would just add a whole new dimension, man.

Man, now I'm thinking about my old HG bard. I still believe he lives in the minds of few as a cult obscurity classic.

Best song released- the one about the time he was in the grey forest and wiped his ass with poison ivy-esque leaves.
Folks was rolling.

Best unreleased song - "Few have the balls of a Lyksae" - wrote as an apology for the time I accidentally insulted Lord Who-ever Lyksae's Inix's penis, stating that my mount had bigger junk than his mount -- THEN I realized he was a noble. (Not a big Tuluk player.)

Died between the completion, and the premier. I think I may retry this concept sometime.



But yeah, back to things. I'm really sick of the cookie cutter 9 year old (Note even 9, it's more like 5!) patterns of speech, behavior, thought. They're funny every now and then, but when that's your ENTIRE character concept, it gets old fast.

QuoteIMO, most half-giants are already convinced their mission is to entertain the playerbase.

This is far too true.

HG's that i see around all the time are playing much more carefully and clever than they should be in my standards.

Keeping a HG as your ally or tool should not be extremely beneficial. There should be a drawback to balance the immense power they add to the team/organization, which i believe is lacking in today's HGs.

Example:
I heard about an animated HG, who by mistake bumped into a Lord Templar and cause him to fall into a spike-set chasm, ending his life.

Quote from: najdorf on December 18, 2010, 11:25:21 AM
Example:
I heard about an animated HG, who by mistake bumped into a Lord Templar and cause him to fall into a spike-set chasm, ending his life.

Huh, wonder why a PC never tried this...

Quote from: X-D on December 01, 2010, 12:50:03 AM
Well, I know the elf that sold you the dagger, and well, it is made of stone painted silver and those are only quartz crystals, which is why I did not steal it, though now that I know you think it is real still, I will have to and we can sell it back to you again. Still, we are laughing and enjoying the 4 bricks of spice we could buy with what you paid.

Oh man, WIN.

Yeah--- I've kept secrets from PCs before, enough so to confuse the hell out of them, and i'm pretty sure i remember a few times where i either thought or knew for a fact that someone was pulling one on me.

person A knew a certain language me and person B were talking in. person A knew how to listen to a conversation at another table like a master without being noticed. person B would not shut up at my table, about how badly they wanted person A's belongings. person A was kind enough to give us obvious signs that we were being owned before we began. they weren't even really required IC, and more than hinted strongly of OWN. those other times i'm not sure of... just make me sad. X) and impressed beyond my wildest dreams at the complexity of their conspiracies.

i really, really hope i don't meet PCs that good at screwing people in-game again. well my character does anyway; i as a RL person would be thrilled and honored.

Quote from: janeshephard on November 25, 2010, 09:10:14 AM
Not to add wood to the fire but the same goes for dwarves and elves. Dwarves are stubborn, hairless, and focused. Elves are mistrusting, cunning, stealing scum.

At least in most instances.

Clearly, there are some situations where your HG should act a little more mature, and your dwarf should be paying better attention to some distraction, and your elf better keep his con-game in check. Like a giant monster chasing them across the Known or a sorcerer turning them into a bonfire.

Probably shouldn't post twice in a row... thought this was good to quote.
I avoid roles i know i couldn't possibly fit like a plague. this is why i tried an elf once, couldn't cut it--- never tried a full-blooded elf again.
eh, twice? i don't remember. forgive me my sins of the past!

I truly wish I had the Karma to play a HG.

I might special-app one in the future.

I used to play as a Troll with an all Troll guild back in the day.  It was awesome.  I think I could pull off a good HG.  I have seen some half-giants that seem to do pretty well, but I cant watch them all the time or had much interaction.

Most of them just talk like caveman.

I'd say that the best don't.

I once saw a HG who was hilarious in their stupidity.

good alternative for HG players with great wit if they really want to make us laugh.

Quote from: Cindy42 on January 15, 2011, 11:41:12 AM
I once saw a HG who was hilarious in their stupidity.

good alternative for HG players with great wit if they really want to make us laugh.

I find a lot of half-giants tend to be comedic relief, but in my opinion it should be funny in the way "Kids Say the Darndest Things" was funny to people. The half-giants don't know exactly what they're talking about, and we're all Art Linkletter/Bill Cosby or the audience. I think that kind of play style is one legitimate play style of many.

I'm the opposite.  I hate half-giants that are obviously only there to try and make stupid funny.

Half-giants in Zalanthas are stupid......when comparing adults to adults of other primary races such as humans, elves, dwarves.
This doesn't mean that half-giants should always fall prey to a con, be unable to understand common, mundane speech, or be unable to count.

If you believe that not to be the case, try running con games in real-life on the intellectually challenged.
These are folks incapable of comprehending advanced mathematics, literature, mechanics, engineering, physics, etc., but they are not the 'hopelessly stupid' that humor at their expense would suggest.

When I was in college, I used to ride the city bus to class, and several people of the so-called mentally retarded community rode to work on the bus I took.  They were perfectly capable of understanding simple math, they could reason as well as any normal 10 year old child (which is quite well, I assure you), they could discuss sporting events, teams, players and their statistics, and more often than not they realized when someone was making humor at their expense, or attempting to con them.

I watched one fool get his ass kicked on the bus one day for trying to pull a con-type prank on one of these folks.

Half-giants in Zalanthas should probably be simplistic in their wants, desires, needs and interests.  I doubt very much that many (if any) would be discussing philosophy beyond a rudimentary level.  They could probably craft simple items as well as any human, but complex machines might be beyond their capabilities.  Their attention spans might be shorter than those of most other races, they might focus on simple comforts or items of simple functionality and/or beauty.  They would understand the value of a 'sid, but probably not understand the values of items they may want that they are not used to dealing with.  Whereas your human warrior might be able to extrapolate the net worth of, say, a Kadian fashioned silk dress, from what s/he knows of Kadian pricing, market memory and relative values of other things s/he knows of, a half-giant would probably focus on the aesthetic beauty of the dress and view it with the exact same value s/he views the most expensive thing s/he knows of.  If told that the dress is much more (or much less) in cost, a half-giant would probably be very suspicious and argue the point.

The idea that Half-giants should be ridiculously stupid is, in itself, ridiculous.  Such a creature simply could not compete and survive in societies dominated by "smarter" races, particularly in a world like Zalanthas, regardless of their strength and size.

Quote from: naatok on February 09, 2011, 12:27:49 PM
The idea that Half-giants should be ridiculously stupid is, in itself, ridiculous.  Such a creature simply could not compete and survive in societies dominated by "smarter" races, particularly in a world like Zalanthas, regardless of their strength and size.

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/general/races.html#halfgiant
However, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms.

Half-giants have no culture to speak of. Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends.

Half-giants are stupid. Half-giants survive because they are empathetic and because they are masters of mimicry. They are roleplayed poorly by people who can't grasp how a half-giant can learn to make a masterwork dagger and yet be infamously stupid as described in the docs. The key is mimicry. The hallmark of a well played half-giant is how well they incorporate mimicry into their roleplay. Some people take it too far: they think that since their sergeant was a cunning SOB that now they get to be one, too. Others never use it at all, and their half-giant is forever a caveman buffoon or maybe just an oversized human.

I think people are too caught up in how well they talk. I think a half giant can be played either way, so long as there is a reason for the way they talk. If you ask me, it should depend wholly on who their friends are. They should freely adopt their friends manner of speech.

It's a tough role, no doubt about it. Half-giant players have a thin line to walk.

I tend to think of half-giants as our RL working animals.

They're mostly very eager and friendly, they try hard to "fit in".  The smart ones can learn (even specialize) -- but that learning is more in the form of tasks/tricks, rather than being able to apply gained wisdom (the way children eventually learn to do) 

I do believe a HG in time of doing something over and over. And fact they maybe want to do that thing and become good at it can be smart about it. I really think it all depends on how the HG in game is taught and what they see over a period of time. So to the common Amos a HG who has worked on wagons for years would know a lot and would seem overly smart when talking about wagons,the fall back is and were the role play of HG is hard is because you can be smart on one thing but try not let yourself seem overly smart all all other things.

Quote from: jhunter on November 26, 2010, 02:12:32 PM
A half-giant might be incapable of ambushing someone as in, coming up with the idea on their own but they are perfectly capable of executing :

"Maxamos, stand over here behind this huge ass rock...a lone rider will come by soon and when he does...jump out from behind this big fucker and smash his fucking head in. Got it?"

"Okay boss."

What happens if they get the wrong guy ^^?

Quote from: Saellyn on March 09, 2011, 11:11:48 PMWhat happens if they get the wrong guy ^^?

Hilarity.

Boss: You...
Half-Giant: I got him, boss, I got him good!
Boss: That was the wrong guy!
Half-Giant: No, that guy was a lone rider. I got him good!

Quote from: Fnord on December 20, 2010, 01:17:35 PM

Quote from: najdorf on December 18, 2010, 11:25:21 AM
Example:
I heard about an animated HG, who by mistake bumped into a Lord Templar and cause him to fall into a spike-set chasm, ending his life.

Huh, wonder why a PC never tried this...

Probably because in that case it was done with immortal intervention.

Also, the half-giant killed the templar on purpose in that situation, in exchange for a bribe from another templar (this happened many years ago and I was in the know during that situation).